OneNineTwoNine
OneNineTwoNine
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@MashedBroccoli said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4112542#Comment_4112542
to be honest, these tests should’e been done on epic and windows store, that is where 90% of the cheaters come from. I don’t think all the trials are useless just the denovou one.
Dbd needs better anticheat, this is just not a good replacement.
Like I wrote in my own thread, Dbd needs server-side anti-cheat. It's the ONLY way to prevent cheaters from using the tools they have. Make the server the authority on most things and make it hide information the client doesn't need and 90% of your problems are gone.
I even made a post about how feasible it is and why it's superior to any client-side "solution":
@OneNineTwoNine said:
The common argument I see against this is "oh, it's too computationally expensive and would make servers slow!" but I really don't think this is the case, and nobody has been able to argue that without excluding games that have already solved most of these problems.
Let me go through each type of cheat and explain what it is and why it's solvable. Let's start with the hardest one, just to prove my point right away.
Wallhacks
A wallhack shows players through walls and is only useful if the server continuously exposes the entire state of the match to a client. If the server doesn't send the position of everyone without any safeguards every tick, that makes a wallhack effectively useless. You'd only be able to see the last sent position.And this isn't as expensive as people think it is. Is it trivial to implement? No, but it's possible. And the proof is Valorant, which has a fog-of-war system that uses voxels to compute visibility for each player. Dead by Daylight's servers could compute this at the start of each match to account for procedural generation, and it would solve this problem completely. And we're talking a 2% slowdown, if even that.
It would also be an even better fit for this game, because there's less players to compute and this isn't an FPS that requires super low latency 128 tickrate to be playable.
Speedhacks
A speedhack is a cheat that allows you to move faster than you should be able to based on the game's conditions. It can be subtle or blatant, but even the subtle version can be validated.Instead of the client having authority on where you are, the client lets you move as normal client side (so there's no input lag), but sends the inputs of each player instead of their position. The server can then validate where they should be based on the inputs and perk state, and if it doesn't match up, you get rubber-banded back. You can also compensate for ping. If this happens enough times, the server accumulates data and when it reaches a point where it is statistically improbable to be caused by lag, you get banned.
This also makes teleportation impossible.
And if you're concerned about rubber banding for people with bad internet, well that happens regardless of validation on bad connections. And as much as it sucks, I don't think we should sacrifice everyone else's experience for the sake of giving people with a poor internet connection a better experience.
Item and perk validation
The server validates what items you have based on your cloud save, and if you try to join a match with an item/perk/addon/offering you don't have, or try to use one you don't have in a match enough times, you get banned.Don't ban immediately, accumulate statistics over time - that way you avoid false positives if the client has a bug that causes items not to match up with the cloud. That can also be solved further by making the client query the server for what items and perks you have before the match, then update your inventory - and then simply remove anything you don't have from your loadout.
As for aura related items and perks, let's use the blood amber as an example. If you're actively using the item, the client tells the server that and the server keeps track of your charges and sends you the killer's position if you're in range until you run out of charges. When you run out, the server stops sending the data based on the fog-of-war system I explained earlier.
And now if a player tries to use a perk or item they shouldn't have in the match, they can't. The server will refuse the action and other players won't see it, and over time this repeated action gets you banned.
These checks are super trivial, I'd wager less than a millisecond if even a few nanoseconds. There's no reason not to do them.
Insta-completions/Remote completions
This is when a cheater instantly heals a survivor, instantly completes a gen, and so on. This is again super trivial, the server keeps track of progress instead of the client. Just like the movement validation, the client still increases progress client side (so you get a smooth progress bar), but the server validates it based on your position, perks/items, and time passed. If it doesn't match up, the server makes a note of that.If you're on the other side of a map, you obviously shouldn't be able to complete that gen or heal that survivor. If only a second has passed, you can't complete a heal, and you have to stay still to heal them. If you're downed and another survivor is not healing you, you can't get up. If you have unbreakable for example, the server validates the progress of your recovery and once you get up, the server knows that you don't have unbreakable anymore and won't let you use it again.
Bypassing anonymous mode
Often used to target streamers to hold their game hostage or ruin their experience with other cheats. This one is arguably the easiest. Don't send the player's steam info to the client if anonymous mode is on. That's it.And now we've covered the most common cheats used in this game, and proven they can be solved with server side validation, and that the validation won't meaningfully reduce performance. I think given that it almost completely solves the cheater problem, it's more than worth it.
So what's left? Well, there's still the case of client side cheats such as making trapper's traps more visible by modding the game. That's why we can still have some level of client side anti cheat, but it doesn't need kernel level access and instead just validates the integrity of your game so that if a hash doesn't match up the server doesn't let you join a match. It's still bypassable, but given that we've now solved the most damaging cheats server side, I think people being able to see traps on the ground easier won't ruin your games. Perfection is the enemy of good.
Considerations
I understand that this requires time, money, and effort to implement, but I still don't think trying yet another ineffective client side anti-cheat is going to be worth it or improve the experience.The expenses of writing the code for all these checks is real, especially considering the thousands of perks this game has. I understand that. But it would solve a problem that has plagued this game for years, and once it's done the cheater problem will be miniscule which will improve the game health tremendously.
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The common argument I see against this is "oh, it's too computationally expensive and would make servers slow!" but I really don't think this is the case, and nobody has been able to argue that without excluding games that have already solved most of these problems.
Let me go through each type of cheat and explain what it is and why it's solvable. Let's start with the hardest one, just to prove my point right away.
Wallhacks
A wallhack shows players through walls and is only useful if the server continuously exposes the entire state of the match to a client. If the server doesn't send the position of everyone without any safeguards every tick, that makes a wallhack effectively useless. You'd only be able to see the last sent position.And this isn't as expensive as people think it is. Is it trivial to implement? No, but it's possible. And the proof is Valorant, which has a fog-of-war system that uses voxels to compute visibility for each player. Dead by Daylight's servers could compute this at the start of each match to account for procedural generation, and it would solve this problem completely. And we're talking a 2% slowdown, if even that.
It would also be an even better fit for this game, because there's less players to compute and this isn't an FPS that requires super low latency 128 tickrate to be playable.
Speedhacks
A speedhack is a cheat that allows you to move faster than you should be able to based on the game's conditions. It can be subtle or blatant, but even the subtle version can be validated.Instead of the client having authority on where you are, the client lets you move as normal client side (so there's no input lag), but sends the inputs of each player instead of their position. The server can then validate where they should be based on the inputs and perk state, and if it doesn't match up, you get rubber-banded back. You can also compensate for ping. If this happens enough times, the server accumulates data and when it reaches a point where it is statistically improbable to be caused by lag, you get banned.
This also makes teleportation impossible.
And if you're concerned about rubber banding for people with bad internet, well that happens regardless of validation on bad connections. And as much as it sucks, I don't think we should sacrifice everyone else's experience for the sake of giving people with a poor internet connection a better experience.
Item and perk validation
The server validates what items you have based on your cloud save, and if you try to join a match with an item/perk/addon/offering you don't have, or try to use one you don't have in a match enough times, you get banned.Don't ban immediately, accumulate statistics over time - that way you avoid false positives if the client has a bug that causes items not to match up with the cloud. That can also be solved further by making the client query the server for what items and perks you have before the match, then update your inventory - and then simply remove anything you don't have from your loadout.
As for aura related items and perks, let's use the blood amber as an example. If you're actively using the item, the client tells the server that and the server keeps track of your charges and sends you the killer's position if you're in range until you run out of charges. When you run out, the server stops sending the data based on the fog-of-war system I explained earlier.
And now if a player tries to use a perk or item they shouldn't have in the match, they can't. The server will refuse the action and other players won't see it, and over time this repeated action gets you banned.
These checks are super trivial, I'd wager less than a millisecond if even a few nanoseconds. There's no reason not to do them.
Insta-completions/Remote completions
This is when a cheater instantly heals a survivor, instantly completes a gen, and so on. This is again super trivial, the server keeps track of progress instead of the client. Just like the movement validation, the client still increases progress client side (so you get a smooth progress bar), but the server validates it based on your position, perks/items, and time passed. If it doesn't match up, the server makes a note of that.If you're on the other side of a map, you obviously shouldn't be able to complete that gen or heal that survivor. If only a second has passed, you can't complete a heal, and you have to stay still to heal them. If you're downed and another survivor is not healing you, you can't get up. If you have unbreakable for example, the server validates the progress of your recovery and once you get up, the server knows that you don't have unbreakable anymore and won't let you use it again.
Bypassing anonymous mode
Often used to target streamers to hold their game hostage or ruin their experience with other cheats. This one is arguably the easiest. Don't send the player's steam info to the client if anonymous mode is on. That's it.And now we've covered the most common cheats used in this game, and proven they can be solved with server side validation, and that the validation won't meaningfully reduce performance. I think given that it almost completely solves the cheater problem, it's more than worth it.
So what's left? Well, there's still the case of client side cheats such as making trapper's traps more visible by modding the game. That's why we can still have some level of client side anti cheat, but it doesn't need kernel level access and instead just validates the integrity of your game so that if a hash doesn't match up the server doesn't let you join a match. It's still bypassable, but given that we've now solved the most damaging cheats server side, I think people being able to see traps on the ground easier won't ruin your games. Perfection is the enemy of good.
Considerations
I understand that this requires time, money, and effort to implement, but I still don't think trying yet another ineffective client side anti-cheat is going to be worth it or improve the experience.The expenses of writing the code for all these checks is real, especially considering the thousands of perks this game has. I understand that. But it would solve a problem that has plagued this game for years, and once it's done the cheater problem will be miniscule which will improve the game health tremendously.
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I mean I really don't get why there is a limit in the first place. It kinda sucks to not be able to utilize your GPU fully in this game.
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Also please let us set the FPS limit higher than 120. I have a 280hz monitor, and it would be nice to be able to use it to its fullest without having to do unreliable config hacks where the game slows down if it doesn't meet the target FPS.
In general, the game feels unoptimized. That I can't reach consistent 120fps on a 3080 at 1440p is very concerning for a game like this.
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I'm on Linux, so maybe my experience isn't valid, but yesterday I was playing and noticed that every single time I was downed, my PC's fans would just max out to the point I could feel the vibrations on my desk. When I was hooked or picked up by a teammate, it would go back to normal.
There DEFINITELY seems to be some strange bugs causing unnecessary resource usage. The game generally runs fine at 120fps for me on a 3080 at 1440p, but I still get stutters here and there (could be shader compilation), and that issue I just mentioned seems new. It didn't happen before the update.
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Sprint burst on demand means jack when you've got two killers on each side of you about to two-tap you.
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I once joined a voice channel on the official discord server when All Things Wicked came out and got bullied out by everyone because I didn't own Sable, so I wasn't "cool." I side-eye Sable players now, but some of them are nice to be fair. lol
As for killer… Ghoul is so irritating to play against, AND listen to. Both the sounds of the killer and the chase music makes my blood pressure spike.
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@JawsIsTheNextKiller said:
Seeing your teams perks is a good start. But having to stand still looking at the tab screen to do it is probably a bit unreasonable for most people. Having an OPTION of seeing the perks while playing would be more useful (I know some might resent extra clutter). Then players can look at the perks while they are repairing a gen to decide if they should let Claudette do this rescue.
For bonus points, they could highlight active perks so that players could see that Deliverence is not only in play, but also ready and usable.
IMO, if they really want to bridge the gap between SWF and solo, they need to show the perks at the lobby screen.
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Are you sure they weren't using plot twist?
I do agree though, relying entirely on client side anticheat is naive at best.
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I think this game has plenty of problems but comparing BHVR to Activision Blizzard is insane.
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Damn, I must have gotten really unlucky, cause I got her like 4 times so far in the span of 3 days.
So, strong pallets are the only counterplay? That sucks, I feel like most pallets are mid at best.
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Honey you've got rose tinted glasses on while in an abusive relationship with this company. They have demonstrated over and over again that they're not going to learn, or they would rather prioritize short term profits instead of fixing the game. They damage control with apologies that ultimately mean nothing or give you useless cosmetic items like a charm as another form of "apology".
But it's all just a way to placate you and keep you spending money on overproduced cosmetics and unfinished licensed chapters while they continue to do absolutely nothing. And by posting this, sorry but… you're enabling them. I have not spent money on this game in 2-3 years since I saw this pattern, and I suggest you also vote with your wallet like I have.
It's the only language they understand.
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@danielmaster87 said:
I've got it: 4 vs 16!
No no, 8 vs 32 is better.
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I just don't agree that something that modifies the final output of the game is cheating. Yes it is cheating by the definition "third party software that gives you an advantage", but this definition is in my opinion way too broad, and also includes software like Discord, which ironically DOES give you more information but is not considered cheating. So the people saying this do not have a sound logical argument.
An EQ doesn't give you more information, it makes information already there possibly easier to hear (with the previously mentioned issues of distorting all other sounds), same with ReShade making pixels of a certain kind easier to see. I need to reiterate again that EQs do not give you the ability to pick out certain sounds, you can only modify the finished audio mix of all the sounds summed together.
I feel like I'm going crazy, people here are comparing EQs to stuff like stretched res when they are in no way comparable at all. Stretched res was cheating because it gave you additional information and was a quirk with the game itself, allowing you to see over walls and rocks. Stretched res is cheating and it's good that it was removed.
This community is waaaaay too strict on what is considered cheating, as if "an advantage" and "cheating" is the same thing. These tools don't make you a god at the game. They don't even make you instantly better, they only make the information that's already there, more accessible by a negligible amount. You still have to employ your own skills and game sense to actually get results. You still have to train your ears and eyes to pick out these details.
Now are you scummy for using these tools? Are you sweaty? Those are different discussions that I feel might have more merit, bar the accessibility argument. But cheating it is not.
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As someone who works with audio I just want to weigh in on this. An EQ is essentially the same as filters for an image. You can use it to boost or lower certain frequency bands, much like you can boost pixels of a certain quality. It doesn't however give you the ability to individually change the volume of specific sounds. Someone mentioned "it's changing the audio mix" but that's not how EQs work.
All dynamically mixed audio is summed together before they go to your headphones, this typically happens at the software level of whatever application is producing the sound. The content of the left channel is summed together, then sent to the left speaker, and same with the right. In other words, the rich data that the game has for the audio is flattened much the same as flattening an image in Photoshop, that rich data is removed.
An EQ will act on a single sound wave where all the sounds are already summed together and it's not possible to pick certain sounds out of it (without using AI), only frequencies. But nearly all sounds cover a wide spectrum of frequencies, so by boosting or lowering frequencies you would most likely be changing the volume of undesirable sounds as well.
Another point is that the frequency response of headphones vary widely, and therefore if you wanted to say EQs are cheating, you'd have to force people to use the same brand of headphones to make sure nobody had a better frequency response curve.
People use EQs for their headphones to make them sound better, more fun, or more neutral for mixing purposes. Some people also use it for accessibility reasons, such as reducing harsh frequencies that cause pain.
So does the EQ give you a huge advantage? Maybe, but I doubt it. I think people get too hung up on the definition of what is considered cheating by dbd's standards, because with such a loose definition there is a lack of nuance. The word "cheating" carries a lot of weight that I feel is being watered down today.
EQs have been used for decades just like the brightness/contrast setting on your monitor. Some audio units have them built in at the hardware level. I also don't think banning EQs is going to work, as lots of computers have them built in as bloatware "audio enhancing" software, and there are a million different types of third party software you can use. EQs are comparable to what ReShade does, but for audio and much less advanced, and the devs have said ReShade is allowed.
I definitely think people are overreacting. If the software modified the game itself specifically at the memory level like actual cheating software does, I would get it. But you're just taking the finished audio output from the game fed to you by the OS's audio API and modifying the tonal qualities without being able to isolate certain sounds. It's no different from deciding a certain hue of pixels on your screen should be brighter.
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Yesterday I played survivor for an hour. I dropped 7 pallets, 5 of them ended with me being hit through it after the animation got cancelled and then my survivor vibrating on the ground afterwards.
Something funky is up with the netcode. This didn't happen before.
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Just want to point out that generative AI does not do math very well. It can give you answers to simple questions because it has those answers in its data set. The second you start asking it for more complicated stuff, there's a chance it just makes an answer up while making it sound very convincing.
It works by predicting what the next word should be, sort of like predictive text on your phone just way more advanced using neural networks. It doesn't actually do any thinking or mathematical operations.
Therefore, using AI for this isn't a very good idea. Not to mention the heaps of ethical problems with AI and especially the person who owns Grok. I wouldn't trust it, personally.
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In case anyone needs a refresher on what tunneling ACTUALLY is, here you go.
Tunneling: Intentionally focusing down a survivor to kill them as fast as possible, often ignoring everyone else and sometimes even throwing the game in the process if there are no weak links in the team.
Tunneling: The killer doing a 180 to go back to the hook immediately after you're unhooked to find you and chase you down, repeating the process until you're dead.
Not tunneling: The killer finding you at the hook after you didn't run away, and the healthy survivor who unhooked you is nowhere to be seen.
Not tunneling: Finding and chasing you several minutes after not finding someone else long after you left the hook.
Not tunneling: Going after you again after having hooked someone else after your first hook.
Not tunneling: The killer deciding to chase you first at the beginning of the game.
Personally, I feel like it's very easy to tell the difference. You can easily tell if the killer is tunneling based on these simple rules.
For some reason, people will water down the term and make it lose its meaning because the game didn't go their way. This makes the conversation harder to have without people disagreeing because they might not realize that two parties are talking about different things while using the same word.
Before we can have a discussion about tunneling, we need to make sure everyone understands what it actually means.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
Downvotes should be removed. They just hinder discussions, instead of having to come up with an actual argument, people just click a button. And if you cannot bother to think about an argument, you should not be able to downvote.
Also, I personally really dislike if simple questions get downvoted. E.g. there was a person yesterday asking how to get rid of the black Bars if you play on a resolution other than 16:9 (they were playing on 1920x1200) and the first thing someone did was downvoting it. It just gives some really unwelcoming vibe to new Users who clearely dont post anything wrong.
You make a good point. A great example is my original post being downvoted even though I wasn't really taking any sides, I was asking a question. Personally I don't know how I feel about them yet, so I'm not gonna say I advocate for or against them. I was just wondering if they're intended or not.
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Did you run into the Hardcore Survivor team (Hens, Otz, Ayrun, JRM) maybe?
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Yeah I really don't understand why they felt the need to nerf Xeno. It feels like a killer that sat in an OK spot, before this. The only good change is the tail changes, the other ones are just completely unnecessary and will make him Trapper-tier.
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Am I missing something? Nothing about their response seems to suggest that they're not going to change it, they literally said it's not intended and they're fixing it on release.
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@theonryo123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3894489#Comment_3894489
That’s not my point can’t you read and comprehend? I said they should tone down the window vaulting from 3 to 2. Plus it’s not like I’m using nurses billy or spirit who have greater advantages against strong loops. Maybe you should understand things from killers perspective who are weak and there are some killers who are strong.
You are asking for a blanket nerf to survivors though, not just a buff to your killer. If your killer being weak is the problem the logical thing to ask for is a buff to your killer, not nerfing a base survivor game mechanic.
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3893840#Comment_3893840
yeah, I don’t get it either. I can’t believe that it’s not technically possible to have the game be able to automatically detect when a player is doing something that should not be possible in the game. This should be able to catch even subtle cheating. For example, survivor is running at a higher than their base speed and doesn’t have any perks that would allow them to do this. Game should be able to detect stuff like that.
Right, and then if detected instead of banning them immediately (because there's always false positives), just kick them out of the game and replace them with a bot, giving them a DC penalty. They'll eventually be forced to wait forever to get a match, if they're really cheating.
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I don't understand why it's so hard to add server side checks for cases where not even high ping can cause someone to teleport from one side of the map to the other, or move at speeds not even possible to achieve in game, or instantly heal someone. This would curb the blatant cheaters considerably, leaving the subtle ones which sadly are harder to detect.
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3892903#Comment_3892903
how am I supposed to know if a team is solo queue or SWF? If I get into a match and I can tell the survivors are good and know what they’re doing, I’m going to use these tactics if needed. I won’t use them if the survivors are bad and I don’t need to use them.
The goal of all the complaints is to try to nerf these legitimate strategies which is only going to make it more difficult for killer players to compete in matches against skilled survivors. You can’t nerf these only for matches where they are not needed.No, that is not the goal. The goal is to use your voice loud enough so the devs hear you and acknowledge what is objectively a problem with the game. Whether or not these strategies should be nerfed, changed, discouraged, etc is up to the devs, not me. But if I were to suggest something, it would be to revert all the changes that have essentially encouraged this type of behavior.
Replacing or reworking SBMM is one aspect because you need at least 3 kills to gain MMR which encourages tunneling (because it gives you a huge advantage allowing you to more easily reach those 3 kills). In fact I think basing wins based on kills is a huge mistake, even if it makes sense for the lore and idea of the game. We had the victory cube before, and that was essentially the same as this. It was then changed to the emblem system, and even though it was flawed I prefer it over what we have now. It's not even about the quality of the matchmaking, it's about the mentality that the matchmaking system encourages in players. People care about their MMR, so they will do their best to make sure it increases. How do they increase their MMR? Well, the game says if you're the killer you must get 3+ kills, so you have to sweat. And for survivors it's based on if you escape or not, so you must sweat. This just isn't a healthy mindset to foster in a game like this. It makes sense for symmetrical games like Rainbow Six: Siege, but Dead by Daylight? I don't think so.
What I am arguing is that tunneling and slugging is a game health issue. People quit the game because of these issues. Ignoring that and pushing your head in the sand is not going to solve the issues, it's just going to kill the game eventually as everyone gets burned out. One problem I see in this community is that when you point out an issue, you have like 2-3 different people yelling at you saying that you want to ruin the game for the other side. This isn't productive. Focus on the issue, not tribalism please.
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3892692#Comment_3892692
I’m sure the people downvoting this can send us some clips of their killer gameplay to show us all how they can easily beat good coordinated teams without ever camping, tunneling or slugging
Nobody here is arguing that. We've acknowledged that SWF are stronger than killers, but that wasn't the point. The point is being ignored because for some reason you don't want to admit that this behavior is heavily detrimental and boring to solo queue players. Last time I checked, solo queue accounted for over half of survivor teams, which means that statistically speaking the people complaining are more likely to be people who play solo. That's why this whole "yeah but SWF" argument is a strawman.
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@SnakeManvsArbok said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3892737#Comment_3892737
I don't think the timers need a DRASTIC adjustment, I moreso think that 80 seconds for OtR is a little silly. I think 45 seconds for DS and 60 seconds (maybe 50) for OtR is good. Again, I don't wanna gut them, I more want to make them less effective for aggressive use, which is the outlier that I feel is problematic
Ah okay, I misunderstood you. I thought you meant the stun timer for DS, and for OTR I guess I just brainfarted. I agree with you, then.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3892688#Comment_3892688
It's not because it's boring, if it was due to being boring survivors wouldn't play survivor at all as sitting on gens is boring. Saying it's boring is a copout, the real reason is because survivors lose because they are willing to endure boring mechanics like gen repair if it means they win.
This is further backed up by the fact that so many survivors like to "go next" yet complain when they are tunneled out. So they don't like being tunneled out fast but do want to go next?
There's a difference between sitting on gens (which you have agency to do) and being slugged or tunneled (which you have no agency to prevent). Gens are boring, but you can stop doing gens at any point and chase the killer, cleanse a totem, heal someone, etc. You can't do much if you're slugged unless you have a perk that lets you pick yourself up. You can't do much against a tunneling killer if you're not good at looping.
It's not a copout, and it's not about winning for everyone. I have lost many games where the killer did neither of these things and it was still enjoyable to me. Why is it so hard to believe that someone might dislike something in a game exclusively because it's boring, and not because it's something that might make you lose the match?
That argument doesn't make sense to me either, because I've still won games where there's been both tunneling and sluggging. It's not necessarily an automatic win. It's strong, yes, but you're not guaranteed a loss.
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@SnakeManvsArbok said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3892723#Comment_3892723
I feel like you can totally nerf SWF bully options without gutting fun mechanics. Off the top of my head, nerf Decisive and OtR's timers so they can't be used nearly as aggressively anymore, Brand New Parts could be nerfed as well, maybe cut Background Player's Haste a little more, and here's the most aggressive one I'd advocate for: Shoulder the Burden makes you exposed until you are put in the Dying state by the killer.
I don't really think DS or OTR needs any nerfs. They both immediately deactivate once you do a conspicuous action. There's the bodyblocking problem, yes, but if the killer ignores the survivor, they are either forced to do nothing for the entire duration of the timer or immediately disable one of their perk slots. The bodyblocking is countered by just immediately hitting them (OTR), and/or leaving them on the ground (DS). I think these perks are fine.
Brand new part is… eh. I'm not sure. If anything, you should not be able to use more than one BNP on a gen. The problem with gen regression/progression mechanics is that they are dependent on each other. If you nerf BNP, you will also have to nerf gen regression because both sides use these mechanics to counteract the other side. Survivors bring progression because of regression. Killers bring regression because of progression. Remove either one's toolset, and gens will either fly too fast or will be painfully slow. Maybe my opinion is controversial, but I don't think any perk or item should affect gen speeds. I think gen speeds are something that is so hard to balance right that introducing extra variables in the form of perks and items makes it near impossible to get it right.
I agree with STB though, that perk is in my honest opinion completely busted and can single handedly win games. I don't know what the devs were thinking on that one. It was probably meant to be yet another anti-tunnel perk but it's way too strong for what it does. I don't think any perk should let you transfer a hook stage. It might have to be reworked to be balanced.
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@SnakeManvsArbok said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3892712#Comment_3892712
It sounds to me like we're both pretty much in fundamental agreement as far as when slugging is acceptable and not. It all comes down to etiquette and people going into matches with an aggressive aura that players will need to match. I also understand a killer going in sweating against solo q players, especially those with less experience, is a much taller order to match that energy.
I feel like the answer comes with having better solo q communication options, while nerfing SWF bully options. If you want my personal opinion, I would gladly take heavy slugging nerfs in exchange for sabotage being removed from the game entirelyI can get behind that. Sabo is fun as survivor, but miserable as killer. I think it's yet another thing that's still in the game despite being severely outdated and just not a really good game mechanic. When the game was less competitive and more focused on the whole horror aspect, it made more sense.
But I don't think it's going to be easy to nerf SWF bully options without gutting a lot of fun mechanics in the game. The problem is the communication as you mentioned, which is why the gap between solo and SWF needs to be bridged. I think BHVR should be a bit bold and daring, testing out a communication feature that allows you to say where you are on the map, what you're going to do, what you need someone else to do, etc. And I don't mean voice chat, but set phrases. I also think you should be able to see your teammates loudout in game (not in lobby, as that promotes lobby dodging) so that you can plan accordingly.
Then, if that works out you can start buffing killers to compensate, as well as encouraging fun gameplay for both sides. That might help but it's hard to say for sure.
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@SnakeManvsArbok said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3892688#Comment_3892688
Killer main here. I agree slugging is boring, but I also feel like it's kind of a necessary evil sometimes, especially when dealing with SWFs. Plenty of people make entire team loadouts designed around denying hooks. Stuff like Decisive Strike, Background Player, Breakout, sabo builds, flashlights. There are a LOT of ways to deny killers hooks, and killers don't have nearly as many options to block the survivor equivalent of generators with the gen kick nerf (Granted, I'm not advocating for Chess Merchant meta either).
I feel like it depends pretty heavily on the context of the match. If the survivors are tryharding, there's nothing wrong with the killer tryharding as well. If it's obviously a match with a bunch of solo queue players and a killer bleeds all four out, yeah they're a dick.
I don't disagree with you, but I play solo survivor and in my experience the biggest problem with this behavior is that it's boring. OP asked why people complain, and there's the answer.
I don't play killer precisely because it feels stressful and difficult, so I totally understand why killers feel the need to do it. That doesn't mean it's any less boring, though. And that doesn't mean the complaints from survivors are invalid.
Not to mention, I feel like the complaints mostly stem from situations where it's absolutely not necessary at all and simply makes the gameplay experience worse, such as camping, slugging, tunneling at 5 gens against a team that is clearly not coordinated whatsoever. It happens a lot in my solo games.
There's a difference between the group of survivors complaining about camping/tunneling/slugging because they experience it in such situations, vs the group of SWF survivors who are essentially just entitled and upset that their strategy is being countered.
I'm surely not alone not minding camping or slugging if I am bringing a so-called "bully build" with my friends. It's totally fair if the killer counters that. But it's frustrating when I'm just trying to play the game normally and the 7th double-speed Blight in a row thinks that not getting a 4K is the end of the world.
Honestly though? Camping is not really an issue anymore, in my opinion (though it depends on the killer and if you're in the basement). I find slugging to be the worst, with tunneling a close second. I'm not even the one getting tunneled, most of the time. It's usually the baby survivor with 40 hours getting tunneled, making the match a 3v1 in a short amount of time which just signals to me that the match is pretty much over if the killer knows what they're doing.
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Because it's boring.
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I know he isn't that strong, but just like Legion and Clown he is just an absolute snoozefest for me. If you're not in an area with high walls to loop around you will go down, no questions asked. It just feels like there's little to no interaction between the survivor and Trickster.
I wish people would stop equating "this killer sucks to play against and is boring" to "this killer is OP"
That being said, there are some Trickster mains that are genuinely really skilled and I think, despite them maining one of the most annoying killers in the game, they still deserve recognition for that skill.
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@Marioneo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3717037#Comment_3717037
if you have 30 reasons why its so bad why are you still playing this game then? Genuinely you need to move from this game fr
While I don't agree with a lot of their points, this is incredibly dismissive towards someone giving feedback. I have lots of reasons I dislike the game too, some of which may be subjective. That however doesn't mean I shouldn't be allowed to give my feedback on how I feel.
You should have said that maybe they should take a break, I've done so many times and it has been helpful. Taking a break from this game can help a lot in making you re-appreciate what drew you to the game in the first place.
For me, it's the killer/survivor interaction that draws me to the game, like chases. In that sense, I can understand why survivors find the other parts of the game such as increased gen times to be problematic. It's boring holding M1 while the killer chases someone else.
And given that bhvr has constantly gutted survivor skill expression, and releasing new maps that are 90% unsafe loops which make chases end very quickly if you're not good, it's not hard to see how someone can get frustrated at the direction the game is heading in.
Another thing I'm noticing is that in this community, if you say anything about how you feel about X thing in DbD, you'll be sure to have 5 other people make use of whataboutism or strawmen to somehow invalidate your frustrations. This is toxic, and I wish people would stop. It is possible to be frustrated with one thing on one side, while also recognizing there are frustrations on the other side.
For example, I'm guessing a lot of people who read "bhvr has constantly gutted survivor skill expression, and releasing new maps that are 90% unsafe loops" as me complaining that I can't loop the killer for 5 gens, even though that isn't what I am saying at all. And that is exactly the sort of mindset that contributes to toxicity and tribalism.
As for people giving up on hook, I can't say I haven't done the same. Sometimes it is painstakingly obvious that a match is a lost one, or will be incredibly boring. The alternative is to just suffer through the match because "it is RUDE TO GIVE UP!!" which to me doesn't seem logical. Therefore, I don't hold it against people who give up on hook.
And removing hook suicides is not going to fix the problem, it's just going to make people AFK or throw. And if you ban those people, you're gonna have to ban a lot of people. The solution is clearly not to treat the symptom, but the cause. BHVR needs to fix the issues that make people give up on hook in the first place.
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Maybe this is a strange thing to get mad peeved over, but parts of the game's UI bother me a lot.
- When you die or lose to 4 escapes, the game almost rubs it in by playing this horrible screeching noise at the end game screen when it displays the match result before the scoreboard to make sure you knew you lost.
- Being sacrificed on a hook is way too slow, please just let me skip the animation so I can go next quicker, or spectate my friends.
- The archives popover preventing me from chatting with the killer after a game because it MUST be displayed over the chat and has to finish playing the animation that I really do not care about for a good 5 seconds before I am allowed to access the chat.
- The perk popovers (the information that shows when you hover over a perk) is not the same in the loadout as it is in the menu for editing bots as evident by the "smoke" animation underneath the title card. There's also no search when looking for perks for bots. This tells me that they implemented two different systems to do the same thing and didn't remove the old one. Ugh!
- The UI is just..? It feels clunky, buggy, and janky. And it has been this way forever.
Think that's all I can remember at the top of my head.
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I feel the same way. I just finished the rift and will be taking a long break again. The game just isn't fun. There's so many negatives that completely outweight the positives. Killer is stressful. Survivor is miserable. Skill expression is being removed and the game feels stale and boring.
And it feels like the devs are more concerned with statistics that do not tell the whole story rather than listening to their dedicated playerbase and especially veterans. They seem completely out of touch with what this game actually needs.
It's a shame, I really love this game. But the devs have been pushing it in a direction that has started to wither down that love.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3680244#Comment_3680244
Survivors who give up over every small thing are absolutely not the minority, they are the majority. The vast majority of dc’s or ending themselves on hook are for silly reasons, very few are actually legitimate reasons. The scenario you’re talking about for justified reasons are a small, small minority.
I’ve also always disagreed with the whole not forcing people to play something they’re not having fun. Literally every single game does this. “Not having fun” can be skewed into endless things. I’m not winning or probably going to lose? Oh that’s not fun, I’m out.
Saying they will just try to throw the game or afk I also don’t believe is realistic. That is making them waste A LOT more time. Most would not do that.
I feel like you are dilluting my point and blurring the line between what is objectively unfun and what is subjectively unfun. I do not agree with letting people who don't like facing X killer, or X perk concede without further notice.
What I am saying is that there are certain objectively unfun scenarios which just serve to waste time and bore the person involved, and it feels like you are entirely ignoring that point.
Regardless, the burden of proof is on both of us, and I don't think either of us can prove whether or not these people are the majority or minority. And I don't really think it's even relevant.
Personally, my anecdotal experiences suggests that most of the time people give up when facing incredibly objectively unfun strategies, such as tunneling out at 5 gens, proxy-camping, or getting slugged for 4 minutes. And can you really fault people for that?
The disussion about whether or not these strategies are valid or overpowered or not, is completely irrelevant, I know this wasn't mentioned, I am preemptively mentioning it before someone comments exactly that. Neither is the discussion about what other games do, or what you subjectively perceive to not be a valid reason to ALT - F4.
The point is that it isn't fun to face, and the whole point of video games for most people is to have fun. I don't play Dead by Daylight to win. I play it to get my challenges done, spend time with friends, and have a good time. I don't like pubstomping killers, and I don't like getting pubstomped. The perfect game is one where everyone feels like they had a meaningful impact and were able to participate. If I die or live in those matches, is completely irrelevant to me. And that the concede button allows people to back out of matches that frankly are not worth even a millisecond of your time, or anyone's time for that matter.
What about the element of empathy? I think the "your fun is not my responsibility" crowd have some good points, but some of them also reek of just completely disregarding the fact that you are playing against other human beings that have just as much of a right to have fun as you do. This isn't even something to discuss, you should be considerate of the people around you. That's basic human decency.
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@Blueberry said:
So survivors ending themselves on hook is already a problem and we have to give a second option to do the same thing?
This sounds terrible. The hook problem is already a way of subverting the dc penalty which is a problem, we don’t want to give even more options to do that.
I think expecting that you can force people to play a game that isn't fun or worth their time, is a much bigger problem. The DC penalty is a bandaid fix to a much bigger issue with the game: How fun it is to be pubstomped by a killer that has no intention to give you even an inch of a chance.
If you get rid of hook suicides, you'll just be left with a new problem: Survivors will AFK until the match is over, or intentionally try to lose as fast as possible.
This doesn't apply to survivors who give up over every small little thing, but they shouldn't even be in the conversation because they are not the majority, and they skew the perspective of what I think is a very real issue, namely that some matches just drag on while it is very clear you've already lost, and nobody should have to be forced to endure that for 4 minutes.
And if pips are an issue, simply make the death from concede count as a sacrifice. Problem solved. I don't care if the killer wins or loses, I just really don't want to spend 4 minutes of my life that I can never get back doing nothing.
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@MaTtRoSiTy said:
Been saying this for years and yet again I have to agree with this.
I am tired of the toxic 'comp' Nurses/Blights in my region who like to slug and bleed everyone out for the full 4 minutes, only to pick one of us up at the last second just to waste a bit more time.
I also don't want to have to run Unbreakable every match (which I was doing) because someone wants to slug for the 4k while my team mate hides while I have to bleed out for 4 mins.
The hatch is the underlying issue here and since they will never remove the hatch mechanic, I would like to be able to concede so I don't have to waste 4 minutes of my time bleeding out.
Yeah I think the hatch mechanic would work much better if they just didn't force people to have to sit through 4 minutes of doing nothing because some killers must get their 4K no matter what.
At the same time I understand why it exists. With 3 people dead, you are super weak against the killer and have very minimal chances of escaping so to balance that out, the hatch is there to ensure you at least have somewhat of a chance during a 1v1.
It also serves to make the game a little more intense and thrilling near the end for both the killer and survivor. It just sucks that it has to make certain players feel like they must slug to get around it.
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@adsads123123123123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3676632#Comment_3676632
I would say that the thing that contributes to the low pick rate is merely because most killers like running 4 slow down perks instead, and the small percentage of killers who don't need that, are probably picking perks like UW.
False. The killers that run UW the most are mainly the ones that have large synergy with it. https://nightlight.gg/perks/Ultimate_Weapon
Alien: ran due to base kit perk
Trickster and Huntress: locker synergy
Wesker: 40 m terror radius synergy
Oni, Nurse, and Blight: high mobility let's them easily proc Ultimate Weapon
The other killers that run it still need slow down: Nemesis, Pig, Execution, and Plague
10% is still a high percentage though, that's actually a large amount of killers. I don't know how many killers there are in total if we include all platforms, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's high enough to make 10% very noticeable.
You know 10% means you see it once every 10 matches right? That's hardly anything. Also, its usage is closer to 7% since Nov 2023.
False. The killers that run UW the most are mainly the ones that have large synergy with it.
That doesn't invalidate my point.
You know 10% means you see it once every 10 matches right?
That's not how probability works. In reality you might end up getting a match with UW 3 times in a row from pure chance. It's random, but that will make 10% seem a lot higher than it is in reality.
Regardless UW is still way overtuned, in my opinion, regardless of pick rate.
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@adsads123123123123 said:
Why do people still complain about Ultimate Weapon? It's no where as good as most of the other perks killers have right now.
Whataboutism. One can have an issue with a specific perk while also recognizing that other perks also need to be changed.
I would say that the thing that contributes to the low pick rate is merely because most killers like running 4 slow down perks instead, and the small percentage of killers who don't need that, are probably picking perks like UW.
10% is still a high percentage though, that's actually a large amount of killers. I don't know how many killers there are in total if we include all platforms, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's high enough to make 10% very noticeable.
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Fair enough. I guess I'm in the minority with this opinion then.
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I am so sick of the backpacks. I was hyped for the Dwight cosmetic in the rift... until I saw that it has an ugly bulky backpack with the worst colors you've ever seen.
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@GentlemanFridge said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3540288#Comment_3540288
Surely making it available in the store is more a sign of greed than keeping it locked away?
It's not like they "hoard" cosmetics so the players can't have 'em.
The idea is to make it clear to players that some cosmetics are exclusives, which prey on FOMO and then get them to purchase the premium track of the Rift. Also keep in mind that when they put cosmetics in the store, you can often get them with Iridescent Shards.
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@HamsterEnjoyer said:
Unfortunately devs confirmed recently RARE rarity skins will NOT be coming to the shop only Very Rare skins from rifts :( so Nexus Ranger Feng will not be purchasable
It's cool that we totally didn't see this coming when they introduced the rift back in the day. When they said all the stuff in the rift would be purchasable a year after. Just pure greed.
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@LittleBigSunset said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3537880#Comment_3537880
Not very nice to boil down the genuine advice I'm trying to give you as "you shouldn't let it bother you". You know full well I'm not just saying that.
Sure, the devs could do more to combat toxicity, but I don't think at this point there's any evidence that they will/are going to put a system in place for it, especially one that works.
So ultimately you can't control the people who kill your enjoyment for the game, you know they're still going to be there, so it becomes a situation where you determine what effect they have on your experience. I'm not saying it should be that way, but that's how it is. You don't want to keep throwing yourself at a brick wall in the hopes that eventually you'll smash through it. It's not worth it.
If you play DBD you're going to run into toxic players. It's inevitable. You need to decide whether or not it's worth still playing the game you enjoy even if you run the risk of having toxic games.
(And as someone who was heavily bullied growing up, that comparison isn't warranted. Bullying is a consistent, systematic form of harassment that interrupts your everyday school life and can mess you up growing up. Toxicity in a video game can be upsetting but it's very easy to remove yourself from that upsetting environment. Bullying can feel almost inescapable.)
I'm sorry, it wasn't aimed at you. I genuinely just kinda released all my thoughts on the replies in this thread as a whole into that post. I apologize. The first paragraph was aimed at you, the last two were not.
As for the bullying thing, it wasn't meant to be a comparison. It was just meant to highlight that when people say "don't let it bother you" it's not helpful. I was also relentlessly bullied as an autistic person with ADHD. I know what it's like, and yeah it's nowhere close to toxicity in a video game.
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@LittleBigSunset said:
I'll say first of all I sympathise with you and how you're feeling. I went through a particularly awful depressive episode a while back and tried to use this game as a way of comforting myself and it backfired enormously with the toxicity that was running rampant at the time. Something I've learnt through that is that this game is NOT one to play if you're feeling low or going through tough periods, unless maybe you're playing with friends. When you're playing and your own and it feels like some of the killers you're getting are just out to make you miserable (not saying this is necessarily true - but it can be easy to interpret it that way when you're feeling low) it just makes you feel worse, and the only way to stop it is to just stop playing.
This is what I did. I used to play the game at least every other day for a couple hours but then I didn't touch it for weeks. Didn't touch Cage. Had a tiny bit of interest in Alien but played maybe a couple games. And I played for a couple hours tonight. And I felt a lot better. Had a game where a Blight with Iri vial and Alchemist Ring went out of his way to slug everyone at five gens and normally it would have tilted me but I just didn't care. I died and moved on to the next game and they went considerably better.
I'm sharing that little anecdote to show that taking a break, as cliche as it is, may drastically help you in how you approach and feel about the game when you come back.
I'd also say that while there are obvious examples of toxicity (bleed out, beating on hook, teabagging, endgame chat) there are others that may be more accidental for lack of better phrasing. Example: in a game I had today I went back into the match to grab a flame turret to bring back to the gate to get extra BP. The killer was nowhere to be seen, but it took me a while to get the turret and bring it back to the door. While I was only doing it for the 1000BP, the killer may have thought I was waiting in the door and teabagging till I got run out. So I may have been seen as toxic, albeit accidentally. You could say the same about tunnelling. Maybe the killer just happens to find you three times in a row and can't afford to lose the pressure. Maybe they didn't know you were death hook. It's whatever.
And you're going to get killers and survivors that equally go out of their way to be obvious asshats just because they can. You can't stop them and the devs can't really either so the only thing you can change is how you respond to them. And, like I said, this is particularly difficult to do if you're already annoyed/upset at something else and are looking to DBD as a break from that.
I suggest taking a break and coming back to the game a while later. If it still bothers you the same way then, find another game to enjoy. We play games to have fun, not to make us sad, and I don't want to see you fall into the same depressive loop that I did for a time. Watching streamers play this game (I recommend a guy called Slate) is much more relaxing than playing the game yourself, I find.
Take care!
I've taken many breaks from this game, even one where I didn't play for a year. But the problem is that I love this game and I want to enjoy it. When I constantly meet insufferable players who has the mindset equivalent of a 12 year old's it's hard to enjoy the game.
I am aware that I can't control what other people do and can only change how I react, but in all honesty that still isn't helpful and in my opinion it's still a problem that BHVR doesn't do anything at all to combat toxicity. It's not as easy to just "turn off" your feelings.
I'm a broken record at this point, so I'll just agree to disagree with people who think "you shouldn't let it bother you" is helpful advice. That's what teachers say to victims of bullying, and that hasn't made the bullying any less traumatizing.
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@appleas said:
I would say the players who deserve being slugged or hit on hook are the ones who tbag/spam vault at the exit gates/bm in end game chat.
Chances are that they are the ones who will complain the loudest when they are on the receiving end of toxicity despite being toxic themselves.
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes
Toxicity breeds more toxicity. Not helpful.
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@SimpleTora said:
When it comes to hitting on hook and tbagging I honestly feel like people need to stop letting video game animations hurt their feelings so much.
Yea, words can hurt sometimes (even more so when you know it's true) so toxic end game chat yea I get.
Slugging for absolutely no reason other than to waste their time is annoying (not really sure if reportable) but honestly if you are the last survivor and nothing can be done just tab out and wait for it to end.
Camping/Tunneling has less-so become a toxic thing and more of a strategy that sweaty players use to win. I've had killers play super casual and get destroyed and after 2-3 gens pop they give up and just bloodlust 1 survivor and hook them then camp/tunnel them out to try to win because they can't accept losing. Aside from bubbas nobody really camps to be toxic (or unless that one survivor pissed them off) they do it to "win" because winning in DBD is all they care about
Tbagging and Hitting on hook though? You're just being a snowflake at that point. Crouching in a video game will not do you any harm in game or in real life. Same goes for hitting on hook.
The whole "get over it" is something I mentioned in my original post. It doesn't work for everyone, and expecting people to just turn off their feelings is not helpful advice. Yeah, it's not a big deal, but it's when it happens constantly over and over that it starts to get to you. People are different, and calling them snowflakes for being annoyed at something you're not annoyed at is just inconsiderate.