OneNineTwoNine
OneNineTwoNine
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@Reinami said:
We disagree on toxicity
- Slugging a survivor and bleeding them out for 4 minutes
- Sometimes this can't be helped. At least once or twice a day, i get someone who is the last survivor, all the other survivors are dead, and they crawl to a corner making them unhookable. So, now i risk leaving them, looking for the hatch, and maybe they find it. Or i pick them up, let them wiggle off, and look for the hatch. The only way to make sure i get them at that point, is to let them bleed out.
- Camping and tunneling on purpose to be toxic (Camping and tunneling isn't always toxic)
- Camping and tunneling, even on purpose, is not toxic. Sometimes camping and tunneling are the most effective strategies to win a game. And if that is the case, you should not be getting mad at the player for employing it, you should be mad at the devs for allowing it.
- T-bagging in the exit gate and or doing rushed actions to get the killers attention when they've lost
- I agree with you on this one, but mostly because its just wasting everyone's time.
- Hitting on hook (This depends on the context)
- Again, context is important, but several survivors have extremely loud screams and i hit them to stop it.
- Being nasty in the end game chat
- This one i agree with you.
You need to stop thinking that actions someone is doing in the game is "toxic" using a strategy to win, even if you don't like it, is not toxic. It is playing to win. And if you think camping or tunneling is "toxic" then you are by definition a "scrub" I don't mean that in a derogatory sense, but in a definitional sense. I suggest reading the free e-book by game designer David Sirlin, "Playing to Win", https://www.sirlin.net/ptw here is in excerpt from that book.
The derogatory term “scrub” means several different things. One definition is someone (especially a game player) who is not good at something (especially a game). By this definition, we all start out as scrubs, and there is certainly no shame in that. I mean the term differently, though. A scrub is a player who is handicapped by self-imposed rules that the game knows nothing about. A scrub does not play to win.
Now, everyone begins as a poor player—it takes time to learn a game to get to a point where you know what you’re doing. There is the mistaken notion, though, that by merely continuing to play or “learn” the game, one can become a top player. In reality, the “scrub” has many more mental obstacles to overcome than anything actually going on during the game. The scrub has lost the game even before it starts. He’s lost the game even before deciding which game to play. His problem? He does not play to win.
The scrub would take great issue with this statement for he usually believes that he is playing to win, but he is bound up by an intricate construct of fictitious rules that prevents him from ever truly competing. These made-up rules vary from game to game, of course, but their character remains constant. Let’s take a fighting game off of which I’ve made my gaming career: Street Fighter.
In Street Fighter, the scrub labels a wide variety of tactics and situations “cheap.” This “cheapness” is truly the mantra of the scrub. Performing a throw on someone is often called cheap. A throw is a special kind of move that grabs an opponent and damages him, even when the opponent is defending against all other kinds of attacks. The entire purpose of the throw is to be able to damage an opponent who sits and blocks and doesn’t attack. As far as the game is concerned, throwing is an integral part of the design—it’s meant to be there—yet the scrub has constructed his own set of principles in his mind that state he should be totally impervious to all attacks while blocking. The scrub thinks of blocking as a kind of magic shield that will protect him indefinitely. Why? Exploring the reasoning is futile since the notion is ridiculous from the start.
You will not see a classic scrub throw his opponent five times in a row. But why not? What if doing so is strategically the sequence of moves that optimizes his chances of winning? Here we’ve encountered our first clash: the scrub is only willing to play to win within his own made-up mental set of rules. These rules can be staggeringly arbitrary. If you beat a scrub by throwing projectile attacks at him, keeping your distance and preventing him from getting near you—that’s cheap. If you throw him repeatedly, that’s cheap, too. We’ve covered that one. If you block for fifty seconds doing no moves, that’s cheap. Nearly anything you do that ends up making you win is a prime candidate for being called cheap. Street Fighter was just one example; I could have picked any competitive game at all.
Doing one move or sequence over and over and over is a tactic close to my heart that often elicits the call of the scrub. This goes right to the heart of the matter: why can the scrub not defeat something so obvious and telegraphed as a single move done over and over? Is he such a poor player that he can’t counter that move? And if the move is, for whatever reason, extremely difficult to counter, then wouldn’t I be a fool for not using that move? The first step in becoming a top player is the realization that playing to win means doing whatever most increases your chances of winning. That is true by definition of playing to win. The game knows no rules of “honor” or of “cheapness.” The game only knows winning and losing.
A common call of the scrub is to cry that the kind of play in which one tries to win at all costs is “boring” or “not fun.” Who knows what objective the scrub has, but we know his objective is not truly to win. Yours is. Your objective is good and right and true, and let no one tell you otherwise. You have the power to dispatch those who would tell you otherwise, anyway. Simply beat them.
I have clearly not been thorough enough in defining how I perceive toxicity, so I've edited my post in hopes to clear up future confusion.
- Slugging a survivor and bleeding them out for 4 minutes
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@Mr_K said:
Slugging a survivor and bleeding them out for 4 minutes.
Sometimes can't be helped. When survivors run flashlights, get down in a pallet with teammates clearly in the area, or teammates been breaking hooks. Also when the survivor crawls off and can't be found in time.
Camping and tunneling on purpose to be toxic (Camping and tunneling isn't always toxic)
Sometimes tunneling out a survivor is the best course of action. Not because the survivor deserves it but that the other three are harder to catch. Even an extreme example when a killer camps the first survivor they catch shouldn't be considered toxic. Toxic would be targeted aggression towards another player. Not a generalize strategy they always use.
T-bagging in the exit gate and or doing rushed actions to get the killers attention when they've lost
Agree. Fast vaulting at an exit just so they can gloat is toxic. It serves no benefit to the survivor. Now on its own t-bagging at the exit isn't real toxic. When paired with other behaviors it can be.
Hitting on hook (This depends on the context)
Agree. Continuously hitting a hooked survivor is toxic. Unless the other survivors are dumb and stays around the hook, it serves no benefit to the killer.
Being nasty in the end game chat.
A big issue with the game yet there are those that still want voice chat built in.
Now there are more toxic things in dbd not listed. Survivors can be just as toxic as the killer ones listed. Mainly SWFs that play with the purpose of tormenting the killer other than trying to play the game.
I want to reiterate that I am aware that a lot of these are context dependent. I do not blame the killer for slugging me for 4 minutes when there is a sabo squad or no hooks are nearby and as such will usually crawl to a place where there is so we can both move on if it's the endgame, nor do I blame them for camping when there are survivors swarming the hook, or tunneling when a survivor farms me infront of them for no reason.
What I am referring to is when these things are done with the end goal being to be toxic. I have been bled out for 4 minutes many times and in most cases it's not actually because the killer is forced to, but because they want to be rude.
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@Peanits said:
First all, wholeheartedly agree that there's no need to rub it in if you won. It's sad that some folks go out of their way to do it.
This might be a hot take, but it really isn't. When you ask around, things like teabagging in the exit gates or leaving someone slugged for 4 minutes are generally frowned upon. Usually the only people who will come to their defense are the people who are doing it themselves or their friends. Even this thread (so far at least) has multiple people saying that don't support toxic behaviour.
That said, there is also a difference between someone defending that sort of behaviour and suggesting to not let it bother you as much as it is. This is the position I see most people take. Something like teabagging, for example, has been around in games almost as long as crouching. At some point, people become jaded to it and it doesn't bother them as much. That doesn't mean they think it's a good thing to do, just that it doesn't bother them.
It's also very easy to get caught in a bubble that feels a certain way. If you go to Reddit, for example, threads where people catch and kill people who decided to stick around and teabag in the exit gates are very common, and the comments are always filled with people who are against sticking around to taunt. A lot of it really depends on who you surround yourself with. If you're typically hanging around people/spaces with a lot of negativity, things start to seem a lot more negative. There is also something called the negativity bias, where a negative experience is more likely to stand out than a positive one. This can often make it seem like many people welcome toxicity, when in reality, most people do not support it.
There are exceptions, of course. There are some folks who perpetuate toxicity. Someone might have a bad match and then decide to take their frustrations out in the next one - even though those people may have done nothing to deserve it. Ultimately it comes down to immaturity or apathy for other people. The way people act when they're hidden behind a screen is often disappointing, even outside of gaming.
To touch on why we don't ban for some of these, it usually comes down to proving intent. Something like leaving a Survivor slugged could be the Killer's option if there's no hooks nearby and the Survivor is trying to take advantage of it. Trying to carry them to a hook might allow them to wiggle free. Or alternatively, if multiple Survivors are slugged, the Killer might not want to pick someone up in case one of the Survivors has Unbreakable and uses the opportunity to save the others. Things like camping and tunneling are also very tricky because it's borderline impossible to prove intention. Short of someone admitting they're doing it to ruin the fun for you, there's no way to tell what was going through their head. For all we know, they could have thought that was the best move in the situation. They are also very natural things for people to want to do at the end of the day; many new Killers think camping is the optimal strategy because they simply do not know any better. It's not unreasonable for someone to think, "I just worked hard to catch this person, I better stay here and make sure they don't get unhooked."
Bans are something we need to take very seriously. People paid to play the game, and taking that ability away cannot be treated lightly. We can't have situations where we accidentally ban people because we think they might be breaking the rules. Accidents can happen, but removing ambiguity is one of the best ways to prevent them from happening. For this reason, we stick to very clear cut cases where there can be no doubt.
The short version, more often than not, people don't actually support toxicity. But it can really depend on the types of people you're around and what you view as supporting versus simply not caring.
I mostly agree with you but there are times where there is no doubt at all that the person is doing it to be toxic. If the killer is JUST tunneling and camping, that's probably just a gameplay strategy. But when they do that, and on top of that, do every other toxic thing in the book, it's very obviously done to ruin someone else's fun. 99% of the time when I am slugged out for 4 minutes it's not because of a lack of hooks, it's because the killer wants to waste 4 minutes of my time to be rude. Their behavior in the end game chat also confirms that.
I'm not advocating for straight up bans, but something like a reputation system or something to discourage this kind of behavior would be appreciated. Other games have them, why can't dbd?
A replay-system would also let devs see how the player is acting both in game and with end game chats logged as well (when someone reports) this would make it easier to understand intention. One thing you should definitely do, is teach new players to not play in a way that is considered bad for the game. You have a tutorial, why not use it to teach people how to play in a way that everyone will enjoy?
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@Deathstroke said:
Tunneling and camping are stragedies to win games as fast as possible. Same as gen rush. They're not toxic. But try hard or sweaty definetely. There are some cases when they can be (killer commiting someone 5 gens) but even then they are usually stragedies to secure at least kill or two.
Yes like I said I am not talking about that. It's a separate issue (but a real one, nonetheless).
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@Vanishlord said:
I agree with you people should be nicer but there has been a lot of people being toxic since the games launch. Edit: by this I mean some people have given up trying to fight it and have given up which is unfortunate. Back to original post: This is one of the reasons I play both survivor and killer. I always play a nice friendly killer sometimes I let surviors get a four man escape and not attack them at all. Both sides of the community are toxic but I find gameplay wise camping and tunneling tend to cause survivors to become toxic. This is how I find myself feeling so I take a break from survivor and play one or two matches of killer.
Also when you say camping and tunneling isn't toxic do you mean endgame situations and if a survivor is being toxic.
It is unfortunate that people don't seem to realize that toxicity can ruin a game that they find fun. To anyone who feels this way youu have my sympathy.
By toxic camping and tunneling it's less that it's the camping and tunneling, but more that they do it to make sure you die, nodding at you, hitting you on the hook, trash-talking in end game chat, and even throwing the game in the process. So in other words, not doing it to win. Tunneling and camping as a strategy to win is a separate issue I also have problems with, but I don't consider it toxic.
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@Vanishlord said:
I agree with you people should be nicer but there has been a lot of people being toxic since the games launch. Edit: by this I mean some people have given up trying to fight it and have given up which is unfortunate. Back to original post: This is one of the reasons I play both survivor and killer. I always play a nice friendly killer sometimes I let surviors get a four man escape and not attack them at all. Both sides of the community are toxic but I find gameplay wise camping and tunneling tend to cause survivors to become toxic. This is how I find myself feeling so I take a break from survivor and play one or two matches of killer.
Also when you say camping and tunneling isn't toxic do you mean endgame situations and if a survivor is being toxic.
It is unfortunate that people don't seem to realize that toxicity can ruin a game that they find fun. To anyone who feels this way youu have my sympathy.
By toxic camping and tunneling I mean when the killer does it to be toxic, and not just to win. It's evident to me when this is the case because they will usually accompany it by nodding at you, hitting you on hook, and then trash-talking you in end game chat, but even more evident when they throw the entire game doing it just to make sure you die.
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Nothing overpowered but it gets very tiring to see Pain res, Jolt, Deadlock, and Corrupt nearly every game. It also destroys solo queue.
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I find this change very annoying because it's much more finicky to add the trap when the killer comes. Before you could just press the button, now you have to get off the gen, make sure you're not holding shift (this should really be changed), then press the button and wait until you hear the sound before you can start running.
I've ended up missing the window to add the trap several times now and getting downed because of it.
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@Akumakaji said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3504694#Comment_3504694
People love to throw around the notion that killers would want for survivors to start on hooks or that they deserve a 4k 75% of the time. I guess you need to be a killer main to see the problems this game has our way. When I started out I would get loads of 4ks, but once I got some experience with all the different killers and my MMR stabilized, it was an entire different story and things have become way, way harder each and every game since.
I'm not really advocating for higher kill rates, I'm advocating for games lasting longer and feeling less stressful for both sides. And one way to do that is to look at gens. They are the primary reason either side is constantly fighting a battle trying to rush their objective. When survivors do gens too quickly, killers have to tunnel. When killers tunnel, survivors have to do gens quicker. There are no incentives to slow the game down, and I think there should be. But it's hard to make such incentives when gens work the way they currently do.
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@ili said:
your problem is not getting 4k in every match?
Absolutely not. Where did I state that?
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Have you all ever considered that maybe people genrush more now because of the tunneling? That perhaps because people get removed from the match so quickly, you HAVE to rush gens to even have a chance of escaping?
I've been trying to play survivor in other ways, trying out fun builds, but believe me every time I feel like I have to run perks to focus down the gens as quickly as possible because no matter how altruistic I am trying to save the guy getting tunneled off the hook, the killer does not give two shits about letting them have a chance.
Alternatively I can be selfish and throw the match because I'm trying to have fun, and then get reprimanded by survivors for not helping them.
What do you expect survivors to do then? There is literally nothing else to do than rush the gens in that situation. I'm not saying genrushing isn't happening in situations where killers aren't tunneling, for what it's worth. But tunneling definitely makes it worse, and I think it's important to think about that.
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I lost all motivation to play this game because of this. I have 1500+ hours and I just feel like it's a waste of time to add to that number now. They never address what makes the game unfun and frustrating, instead they go down the route of "Look my children, new skins and DLC!"
The insane bloodpoint grind has barely been addressed.
They nerfed DS properly after how many years of complaints?
Audio. I don't need to say anything else.
NOED, despite technically being a "fair" perk in many people's eyes is highly controversial and contributes to a bad experience, yet they don't do anything about it because it's balanced. It's not about it being balanced or not, it's about it being a pain in the ass.
Unfun killers such as Spirit and Deathslinger, well... unfun killers in general.
The absolute refusal to do something about the balancing issues of 4 man SWF.
There's just so much I can list that is wrong with this game, even worse are problems that have existed for so long that the devs know about but have not even addressed. Why? Just why?
I really like this game, I can't bear play it anymore because all the fun has been sucked out of it. It's a shame.
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It's not that people think Survivor (or Killer) is difficult. It's that the mechanics in the game can make playing either unfun. Survivor is for sure a lot less stressful than playing killer. But I wouldn't say it's "easier" in that regard. There are still things survivors have to deal with, such as painfully designed killers to go up against or hitboxes. It depends on how you define "easy".
On the flipside, it really all depends on the map and the players you play with/against.
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@Chchchcheryl said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1932827#Comment_1932827
unfortunately you aren't a dev nor do you know what's going on behind the scenes. Adapt and overcome instead of whining, help them iron out the bugs and report them or stop playing if you hate it that much
The whole "backend system" argument doesn't hold water. It's fine and dandy if they changed the backend and don't wanna change it back, but they can still change what is rendered on screen and how it's rendered on screen. It really isn't that complex.
Source: I'm a programmer.
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@JPA said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1937228#Comment_1937228
Well you also strawman on the OP, he never said "nothing is wrong", he said "it's not that bad". Key word is THAT.
Straw everywhere in here I guess this topic is becoming a barn.
"Straw everywhere in here I guess this topic is becoming a barn."
Okay that got a laugh out of me
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@JPA said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1937206#Comment_1937206
He didn't say nothing is wrong, he is giving his opinion.
You are basically being hypocritical here as you are saying that because you experienced something negative, there is nothing good.
"Update ain't that bad" is an objective statement.
I also never said "Nothing is good" so that argument there is a strawman.
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"I didn't experience anything so therefore nothing is wrong"
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@TWiXT said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1900265#Comment_1900265
I don't outright dedicate myself to cleansing all totems right away. I do a gen, see the totems, cleanse 1 or 2 closest, go back to gens, etc... I just have to make damn sure that they are all cleansed by the time there's 2 gens left. This keeps the pressure going pretty strong against decent killers, and most high rank killers don't actually bring in NOED, but its better to be safe than sorry. Even if its a losing game wherein your team is getting swatted like flies, and barely any gens are being done, you can still max out your objective BP before you either bite it yourself or escape via hatch, so you can at least take some comfort in your point gain over the rest of the team.
The primary problem I see with a totem icon with a count for how many remain is that it's the last bastion of misinformation killers have when it comes to protecting them. Lets face it, if there was a counter, and the killer brings in a hex or even is suspected of having NOED, all the survivors would have to do is check to see how many are left, and wipe them out. This leaves no air of mystery to how many have been cleansed and how many need to be, so survivors would never get surprised by that one they missed, and NOED would go the way of the dinosaurs. NOED and many other hexes existences rely on survivors lack of information, and when you consider that every hex totem announces itself already with a notification on the left side of the screen, a cursed icon on the right, and some even have their icon remain in the lower right next to your own perks... do we really need a "Tell all" Totem Icon? To me, that uncertainty is half the fun, and honestly I don't really care for the way the devs "hold our hands" by providing so much information that it feels kinda insulting to my gamer instincts/intelligence.
Hell, I don't even pay attention to most of those icons anymore because if Ruin is up, that becomes obvious by the gen immediately regressing the moment I stop working on it. If Devour Hope has reached 3 stacks, the fact that a teammate just went down in one hit and all of us got the audio and visual queue that we're all exposed is not hard to mistake for anything else. Whereas perks like BBQ&C or Nurses Calling have no notifications or icons appearing on survivors screens, but we all know/figure out quickly if the killer has them based on their behavior.
I guess what I'm saying is that we already have too much information forced on us in the game by the devs coddling that it feels insulting and leaves hardly anything for us to figure out ourselves with the tools provided, so the idea of asking to add even MORE to that makes me wonder if anyone even has gamer instincts of their own anymore, or if people like me are just a dying breed.
I understand what you're saying, and to a certain point I agree. But lack of information is exactly what causes solo to be so weak compared to SWF. I think sometimes you might have to sacrifice stuff like the uncertainty to make the game more balanced. If solo was on par with SWF, killers could be buffed accordingly overall leading to (what I think) is a healthier game.
As for totems, so do I. But cleansing a totem after each gen when only one person is doing it is still inefficient, again I'm speaking from experience here (Which is why I don't quite agree with "just cleanse 4head"). Even if I cleanse a totem per gen in solo, a lot of the time that's still enough pressure for the killer to steamroll.
I just wish my teammates would put in an effort to cleanse as well.
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@TWiXT said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/222383/noed
"There's no totem counter, there's no way to know for sure if there's at least one totem left on the map. And sure, what I'm saying right now has been said so many times, but I think it would benefit this game a lot if more information was given to solo queue, so things like this can stop being an issue."
This is just a criticism about this statement in your post.
Detectives Hunch, Inner Strength + map = Totem hunter build.
These perks + this item are useful for finding totems, incentivizes/further rewards cleansing them, and keeps track of how many there are, so to me, that sounds an awful lot like a direct counter to totems.
Hell this is one of my favorite builds paired with DS and Lithe, Because it ensures I Max out the Objective category and never have to face NOED, plus it only takes about a minute and a half to cleanse all 5 totems on most maps myself since my teammates are usually too lazy to do it, so that doesn't really distract me from helping with gen progress in the long run. Even if you don't want to do the full build, Detectives Hunch or even Small Game alone are typically more than enough for experienced players.
With these as an option, there's honestly no need for More information to the solo queue, and their existence proves there is a totem counter.
Otherwise, I agree with everything else in your post.
Edit: Oops... Re-reading it, I just realized you meant a totem icon with a count for how many are remaining in the map... I guess I'm an idiot... but again with a Map and Detectives Hunch, there's definitely a way to tell how many are left in the map, and I still see no reason to add a Totem count Icon for solo when we already have these tools available.
I would like to say that I have tried the Detectives Hunch + map combo and even though it is really strong, it simply does not work in solo. I waste so much time cleansing totems when nobody else is. My experience is that most of the time by the time the last totem has been cleansed by me, we've already lost so much pressure NOED wouldn't trigger anyway.
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Oops, this was meant for General Discussions. Could you move it there?
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There is nothing more frustrating than trying to find a pallet or window when you're being chased and there's just nothing because RNG decided to be that way. Other times I feel bad because there's tile after tile after tile with disgusting setups (jungle gym facing pallet loop facing shack).
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@Irisora said:
Well imagine what would happen in DBD if all solo survivors were like playing against full SWF teams... I think only masochist would play killer then.
I play solo and i can say that in ranks 10-20 you get matchmaked with people that have little idea of how to play and it can be difficult sometimes but that doesn't deprive me from reaching violet and red ranks.
When one reach those ranks you get more competent teammates and it's a whole different game.
The point is that when the gap is closed, killers can be buffed, so even killers should want this change honestly. If you don't want that gap closed then you are truly sabotaging yourself as a killer.
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My favorite to go against is probably a Huntress with good ping, I love mindgaming hatchets and faking pallet drops.
My absolute most disliked killer is probably Hag. She is just so annoying and boring to go up against. And her traps give me a heart attack, which isn't really scary just annoying.
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I guess I have something to add which isn't related to functionality. I like the overall new design, but I think some parts of it could use with more consistent padding and more whitespace (particularly the sidebar on the right).
I also think some UI elements have way too much detail (borders too bright, border-radius is too high on some elements which looks weird) which make them look cluttered.
Overally I think this design a lot better than the previous one, and it does feel more modern but I think there's still things holding it back.
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It's a bug. Set your graphic settings to ultra.
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I think flashlights are fine honestly. Get downed in an open area and the killer pretty much can't do anything about a flashlight save. You can use them mid chase (at pallets) to disorient the killer. There's many ways you can use them that will help you.