mizark3
mizark3
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@SpaghettiVase said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3202804#Comment_3202804
Remember dead hard…
A perk that always could give value against the majority of Killers? Being used because you could guarantee you would get perk value, but also practically being necessary to play against Blights and Nurses? Why I never.
Remember Borrowed Time? Now the only people who bring that are people trying to rescue people who get hooked super far from gates at endgame. That is a more accurate comparison since that is a basekit granted effect from a perk. Similarly Unbreakable will be in that same boat of the majority of people not bringing it due to it being partially basekit now.
Plus don't forget the easiest way to counter any form of Survivor pickups is the Killer picking them up themself.
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@Zolfo16 said:
Groups of survivors with soul guard, boil over and flip-flop that keep going in maps where they know there are areas where it is impossible to hook them unless it happens you have Agi and IG.
Now they can pick themselves up an infinite amount of times in less than 20 seconds and became basically unkillable. Making them bleed out will be even more complicate.
This is a situation that, if present in the game, we all know will be 100% abused. Boil over was abused like hell, i don't see any reason this will not be the same scenario.
Any solution? Any idea? Am I misunderstanding something?
Defend a 3 gen around basement the second you see 1 person with a scary perk. Ultimately you don't even need to do that since they will bleed themselves out eventually if everyone does it. Also Survivors wasting time in the corner of the map are Survivors that aren't on gens. It will kind of be like another Self-Care, but now they dedicated 4 perks to be killer perks.
Also you can only cause a deadzone if multiple people bring Breakdown, or someone is early killed in a corner hook. The early kill would be a macro failing of the Killer since they could hook them anywhere and they chose the worst option. Just like when I hook someone near an exit gate I need to think of late game when if they try to escape through that gate if that is the only closest hook I need to hook somewhere else.
Also old Boil Over wasn't a problem, RPD's 3rd story Library and a lack of hooks in the Library at all was the problem. You can easily drop Survivors off of ledges from the shoulder and the stagger prevents them from running away long enough for you to down them again. It may have bought them ~10s to delay the hook, but the hook would happen regardless.
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@SpaghettiVase said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3202792#Comment_3202792
If you think it will ever be 45 seconds outside of a player just not having bill leveled, thats a pipe dream. It will always be 22 seconds and not counting every swf being able to make themselves unhookable. This is a massive swf buff
I get tunneled nearly every other game and I don't bring OTR, so expecting everyone to bring Unbreakable as the perk is a complete and utter fantasy. Also Killers have this high skill technique to counter any and all self-pickups. Look close, I don't think people want me to share this but I think I have to.
Here it is...
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When I get the "Kill a survivor by your hand as X Killer" daily my go to is Rancor. I also need my Hex: Devour Hope to pad my Ghostie photo album. It also is fun posing Survivors in different areas to meme with the Mori camera. My current favorite is Dredge corner Moris.
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Psst, hey, yeah you Killers, check it out. I got this magic trick to stop Survivors from picking themselves up.
Look close now.
Survivors can't do anything about it. Friggin' wicked right! Alright lets just keep this between us huh, mum's the word.
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@Audiophile said:
I swear to god… it’s just non-stop. Like 70% of my games are Wesker and they ALL either clearly proxy camp the hook or they loose proxy camp by leaving but as soon as the unhook happens they shoot back directly to the hook to either tunnel or get a cheap hit on the rescuer. I take my 4% chances on all of these games. It’s just no fun.
It typically isn't a cheap hit on the rescuer since you can hear the approach. I personally only like to go back to hook when everyone else is hiding or otherwise not taking aggro, or to punish 45-59s rescues. If you want to gen b4 fren I will force an extra hook state to punish your greed. I typically hate doing that though because the one punished isn't the one being the bad teammate, but I can't force the extra hook state on the cowards instead so what can you do.
I also like to go for the rescuer because Survivors typically send the least hooked Survivor for rescues, so I can spread hooks as evenly as possible by going for the rescuer. I typically only tunnel if the rescuer immediately hides after unhook or the rescued Survivor decides to bodyblock with Endurance. I didn't want to chase you, but either you told me to chase you again or your coward teammate killed you.
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If this decimates the killer population then good, it is all the killers I hate playing against who want to sweaty 4 man slug with 4 minute bleedouts. Also decimate while colloquially refers to a massive number, actually only meant 1 in 10, as in decimal. The vast majority of Killers will be unaffected by basekit Unbreakable, and very few will be punished by the 45s self-pickup. They might get hit by a 22.5s perked self-pickup, but then learn to just pick up sooner and win their match regardless. Also having a pathetic 4 man Starstruck Nurse be forced to end the game sooner is chefs kiss. Those losers can't drag out the match with the 4 minute bleedouts and will be forced to take the W.
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@bjorksnas said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3202069#Comment_3202069
Thats if they are in a pile under basement hook, time to pick up and hook is ~4 seconds plus transport
Yes and even with that time the Killer still has time to hook 3 people since they can hook them in the sequence they were downed.
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@TheWheelOfCheese said:
Before, slugging occupied three survivors: 1 slugged, 1 being chased, 1 coming to pick up.
Now, especially with Unbreakable, nobody needs to come pick up. The pressure of slugging at vital moments has been nerfed approximately to 66% of what it was before.
This is a huge nerf and it deserves all of the backlash it's receiving.
It is just a PTB, but how many times in the past has BHVR released a PTB, the community has pointed out huge problems, and they are set live anyway?
Remember Boil Over? This is that, but worse.
A lot worse.
And I have little faith in BHVR to change course at this point.
At least with 6.1 they did address endurance stacking and Reassurance being busted before it went live, so there's a glimmer of hope. But the track record thus far gives me significant cause for worry.
BHVR doesn't seem to ever consider how stuff they introduce will be (ab)used at the top levels of play, at least not until people show them after they've already released it.
We need to start making noise now, and I'm glad people are.
I will say endurance stacking wasn't a real problem. It was a meme that had little to no value in progressing a win. It is a problem now for good game design since they stacked all viable anti-tunnel effects onto Endurance, so now you can't reliably have protection against tunneling. At the very least have anti-tunnel Endurance not apply deep wound, that is the minimum fix imo.
Also Reassurance had 1 abuse case and they gutted the perk for it rather than preventing the abuse. They just needed to allow giving up on hook, and they hyper nerfed it instead. Before it was a reasonable counter to facecamping, now Bubba still gets his free dubskees.
This may actually ruin tournament level gameplay, but nothing of value would be lost. Just like with Smash Bros. a clear party game is much better when not taken so seriously. Use items and don't only play on Final Destination. The enjoyment of the game suffers when you make it sweaty.
The real change that is bad is no more 3/4 Moris from Hex Devour Hope. I need my Ghostie photobook filled with more Survs!
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@SuzuKR said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3202176#Comment_3202176
- Are you seriously trying to say chaining downs on people nearby is BM? Against decent survivors, even a good chase will be ~30s. If there’s multiple people in the area, it’s part of intelligent play to chain pressure like that.
- That is time not on gens. They are capable of saving themselves.
- Until all map flaws are fixed, that is a major problem.
- Slugging for chain pressure is not being a jerk. What kind of logic is that? Spending time to pick up and go hook is literally time spent out of chase where survivors can run away.
- If 3 people went down in 45s, they massively misplayed horribly.
- Yes, by completely giving up the pressure of another immediate chase and giving time for others to flee the area.
- If you got the good chase with a 30s down then you will have no problem hooking the first person then hooking the second. That is unless you let the 2nd Survivor bait you ~70m away from the first, then that would be your misplay.
- Yes but people like BP for all categories, Altruism is one of those categories. Players typically only play hyper-optimally against sweaty players.
- I don't know of any current map flaws where you can't hook anyone if they get downed there, could you list any? I personally don't count burning a corner hook to kill a Survivor as a map flaw, that is a macro failure on the Killer's end.
- Hook for chain pressure, it can give you even better results. It can actually kill survivors in 2 minutes rather than 4. You don't need to spend every milisecond in chase. Hooks are the intended method of dealing with Survivors.
- And they can all be hooked, even with a 45s basekit self-pickup.
- Yes that is how you play the game, when an enemy brings a tool you adapt and play around it. If I play against Ghostface I try to reveal him before he stalks me or break LOS. If a Killer brings Gen Regression you try to complete the gen before they can apply it, or go to a different gen. If a Survivor brings DH you bait it out or swing through it ASAP.
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@SuzuKR said:
- Kills slugging as a strategy because 45s is an incredibly small window especially when chain-slugging because multiple survivors in the vicinity. The first will be back up before or around the time the second goes down if the survivors are decent.
- Kills incentive for interactivity from survivors. Why the hell would I get off a gen to go help them if they get back by themselves in 45s anyways?
- Exacerbates major issues with unhookable zones that can be intentionally created.
- Kills incentive for interactivity from killer. Why would they risk a slug and losing health state when there’s an insanely overpowered base recovery mechanic? It would be better to just immediately tunnel off hook/camp, instead of slugging and going for more chases.
- Punishes the killer for playing smart by slugging in situations it makes sense (multiple around for instance) when the result is from survivors misplaying (by grouping up close by).
- As if the above points weren’t already bad enough, Unbreakable will now make it take a mere 22.5s to pick oneself up. Infinitely.
- 45s is more than enough to chain 3 hook actions in between 3 normal snowball downs. If the first would be back up before the second goes down then simply hook the first. There is no reason to BM by excessively slugging for that long.
- They will still be injured after a self-pickup, and could be healed even faster than self-pickups with assistance.
- Those can only be created by killer macro misplays, and base map flaws will be more visible and ideally fixed sooner.
- It is nowhere near overpowered, and incentivizes the killer to snowball with hooks instead of slugs. This removes the abuse case scenarios and forces the killer to not be a jerk. You don't need to slug to apply pressure, just hook survivors.
- It only punishes killers for excessive slugging, as stated before a 3 man slug in the span of 45s is still possible to hook all 3 survivors.
- I can't defend the infinite Unbreakable, but it is very easy to play around regardless. Killers just need to use the spacebar on their keyboard. Difficult to grasp for some players, but all you have to do is pickup the Survivor and hook them.
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@SuzuKR said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3201974#Comment_3201974
Getting 3 downs with base Oni power is next to impossible unless survivors were multi hit, because it requires zero Demon Dash travel time. The 3 downs take 21s deduction, and the actual charge up and action times take the remaining ~24s even with zero Dash distance. I was responding to your original nonsensical fantasy impossible scenario. Stop moving the goalposts. Thanks.
Ah yes, the incredibly realistic situation where the second survivor goes down literally 0s in and the third goes down at 29.99s. Please don’t waste anyone else’s time with this nonsense. It’s nothing but absurd fantastical scenarios that have zero actual meaningful relevance.
The Oni example showed 3 downs yielded a maximum of 24 power seconds, which gives 21 total seconds to pick the first person back up from a 3 power down. In the theoretical worst case scenario Oni still had the time to pick up all 3 survivors.
The Starstruck example of 0/29.99 was the best example for your case. I was being generous to your assertion that hitting 2 people means you can't pick up either. Then in the perfect scenario where you are saying it isn't possible to pickup it shows the exact opposite.
Neither of my examples accounted for more normal scenarios, because I could use the extreme opposite example in your favor to help your point and still prove you wrong. I was doing the opposite of you, I gave your assertion every possible conceit I could and still proved it false.
The only person wasting anyone's time here is you for repeatedly lying and claiming those falsehoods are truth.
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@SuzuKR said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3201918#Comment_3201918
By the time you down the third as Oni, the first is literally back up. And this is WITH zero travel distance with the Dash.
And you are completely ignoring chase time in Starstruck. You are literally completely giving up a chance for a second down if you play like that against any survivor with a brain who knows to run as far away in the opposite direction as possible.
DBD wiki literally has these numbers publicly available. At least run them yourself first before saying utterly imaginary impossible scenarios.
The power lasts 45s base, the self-pickup takes 45s base. The only way the 1st is back up on the 3rd down is Oni brought duration add-ons, so you are already wrong/lying.
Chase time in Starstruck doesn't matter if they out timed the exposed duration. If the first person who got hooked and granted the Killer Starstruck, the second got downed at 0s, and the third got downed at 29.99s, then the killer has ~12s to reach the second survivor, or 55.2m of distance (assuming 4.6 no mobility). Then it takes them the ~15s to hook and you have the remaining ~30s minus double travel time to pick up the third. If the Killer downed all 3 remaining players within the 30s then they auto-win from the changes.
I can't tell if you are not reading what you or I are typing or actively spreading lies. Either way the result is net negative and would ask for you to change your ways for the better.
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@SuzuKR said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3201820#Comment_3201820
Are you being disingenuous on purpose?
Cooldown is 2.7, pickup is 3, hook is 1.5, median carry will be ~7.5-8s. Even that alone is already 14.7-15.2s.
You do not have the time to do that when you need to literally start an entire new chase against a survivor who has had time to run away while you do all that, especially against a 30s long Exposed.
Oni’s dash has a 2s charge, the smash is a 2s charge, smash open time is 0.5, hitting happens over 0.3, successful cooldown is 3s. That alone is 7.8s for a point blank no distance down. Which eats another 7s for the actual down. That is a 14.8s depletion assuming literally zero travel time for each down minimum.
Ah yes, just waste the limited time not chasing and going to pick up instead, amazing idea. Just waste the power duration, sure why not.
"legitimate criticisms" LOL
You just gave 15s which was the same estimate I gave. That proves I gave an accurate estimation for the Oni/Starstruck scenarios. If you had 3 people down you have that 15s timeframe multiplied by 3 allowing for ... wait for it ... 45s. Wow almost like you have all the time in the world to get those 3 hooks from snowballing no problem. That technically doesn't account for movement between survivors, but it also doesn't account for an immediate smack to re-down them.
You hard mathed out the same scenario I estimated to same result, which proves you never read what I said in the first place. You wanted to make a point without addressing what I said, and proved me right in the process while claiming the opposite. If anyone is being disingenuous it is you.
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@SuzuKR said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3201804#Comment_3201804
You do realize there’s travel time, cooldown on attacks, and pickup time, right? This is literally punishing killers for making proper use of their given time.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3201808#Comment_3201808
I think pretty much the entirety of the dev notes this time is a horrendous idea, ngl.
You clearly didn't read my post since I accounted for them. Don't lie further and fail to address legitimate criticisms to your continued lies.
Edit: It only punishes Killers for NOT making proper use of their given time.
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@SuzuKR said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3201754#Comment_3201754
Because there are all sorts of situations where not slugging is literally the dumber and worse play? Like when other survivors are close by, if they’re on a pallet, if they’re in the open against people with flashlights, if you have a limited duration effect (eg Haunted/Starstruck), if you have a limited duration power (Oni/Plague/Myers), etc?
I'm sorry was the pickup 4.5s? No it was 45s.
Pallet/Flashlights - If it takes a player more than 45s to take care of them instead of tanking the pallet and permanently removing the map resource I think they have greater problems than self-pickups. I think they are simply very bad at the game and need to seek to improve in a multitude of ways.
Starstruck - Lasts 30s from hook/drop, so you have more than enough time to reach the 1st person you hit, hook them, and then the 2nd/3rd as well.
Oni - 45s minus 7s per down. If you get 3 downs that is 24s. Lets use the same Starstruck logic here. If you got 3 people downed in 30, you take ~6s to lift/hook and ~8s to travel to a hook, you have more than enough time to hook 3 people. (If you got all 4 you instawin.)
Plague/Myers/Haunted Grounds - 60s timer and largely the same as the Starstruck/Oni scenario. Plus if you know you are reaching ~half power/timer remaining you should go pick the inital slug up with ~15s to spare of the timer after you hook. Easy counterplay, easy solution.
With those out of the way there are no sort of situations where the 45s timer is punishing anything other than BM.
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@SuzuKR said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3201703#Comment_3201703
45s is not a long amount of time at all. Why are survivors being rewarded for ignoring their downed teammates?
Why is the killer not hooking?
45s is self-care time, which is quite long in terms of gametime. It may not be long in terms of human lifespan, but we are talking gametime here.
Personally I would have 30s to reach 95%, then another 30s to go from 95->100%, for a minute total (self-pickup perks remove the speed penalty at 95%). With programming difficulties however I can accept 45s as the middle time. If a Killer is slugging in excess of 45s then 99.99% of the time they are BM-ing. As I've said in other threads I am all for punishing BM, and I would add an entity block to the exit gates if you crouch a random number more than 2 times within the gate confines for the block being 30s.
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This doesn't even take into account the near hard deletion of DS from the game, which was one of the few items keeping the game playable for many Survivors. I wish I could play this game with my friends more but they more or less hard quit after the camp tunnel buff that was 6.1.0. Now that anti jerk mechanics are being added the people without empathy or compassion are losing their minds. "How can I make someone not enjoy the game and uninstall now that I can't 4 minute bleedout as easily." I am glad these kinda players aren't able to ruin as many people's games. At least cheaters can eventually get banned for their negative behavior. These Killers just seek out ruining everyone's experience and get no such just punishment.
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A variable time might be too difficult to adjust to and I wouldn't necessarily trust the times to make the most sense/not get lost and disorganized (45/60/75 somehow becoming 45/75/45/60/75). Plus the extreme variability of times can more often cause confusion and accusations of cheating, so without a greater levels of anti-cheat protection I would say the static 45s is fine as is.
Basekit self-pickups only punishes BMing Killers in the vast majority of realistic use cases. The .01% of Killers being "bullied" are just going to be winning slower. They still will win that match, it just would take a little bit longer. Killers refusing to hook should be punished, and this is a fair way to do so.
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I still want my 3/4 pictures when using Ghostie! Don't take that away from me please! Plus I like being able to make neat camera positions for the various Killer's Moris like Dredge at corners looks super cool.
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@FeryGEN said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3201550#Comment_3201550
- Why not? Obsession perks are now rarely taken by anyone, and the killer must know if the survivor rose himself or was raised
- I'm not saying buff the slug, I'm saying buff the up and down. Many things in the game happen while you hang a survivor.
- I would say that they need to rework this part differently. Cypress - 5000 for each killed after the end of the final mori, Ivory - 6500, Ebony - 8000.
I more or less agree on other things.
- I was saying I have no issue with this and it seems fine either way, and the forum formatting kinda requires numbers for each without jumping through hoops.
- Slugging is unaffected by the 45s times unless you are saying to pick up the 3rd Surv after an Oni snowball, if so then I think the buff would be better suited on Mad Grit personally. Even then I think it would still be fine. If you had ~15s between each down then you reach the first person and pick them up and hook them with ~6s pickup and hook and ~8s travel time to hook. That still gives you roughly enough time to get back to the second person in time or to instadown them again (minus Soul Guard). Then you can pick which of the 2nd and 3rd Survs to pickup and still get the 3 hooks.
- That version seems much better than the dev version. I was merely working with what they gave us but your version just seems strictly better imo. I might tilt the numbers up myself though, just to have them be 5k/7.5k/10k each. That way Pudding's theoretical 40k matches the theoretical 40k from the Iri.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3201520#Comment_3201520
You say this like the killer always has a choice on where to hook a survivor.
If a killer sees someone sabotaging a hook closer to the center in that situation, expecting them to not use another hook available in a corner to them on the chance that it might be a problem later is silly. Permanent hook destruction on sacrifice was never a good mechanic to begin with and it’s outdated. This change will just make it even more of an issue since it no longer has any counter in the event that it actually becomes an issue.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3201494#Comment_3201494
I think that’s fine. I’m completely okay with them still being destroyed for a little while as long as it’s not for the rest of the match, so as to still keep some sort of strategy element there especially in regards to scourge hook management. And hangman’s trick needed a buff regardless of these changes.
In the vast majority of circumstances they do have that choice. If they are moving from the center they typically have ~3 hooks to choose from. I don't understand why so many players are so afraid of Sabo Survivors. It is an action with its own set of risks and rewards, as opposed to the typically more optimal stealth and solo gens. When I am a Killer and run into the Sabo Survs I know how to play around them and know that they typically gifted me a free win more often than not.
To use that same logic of an early corner kill, a Killer could defend a random gen opposed to a potential 3 gen. That would be from the Killer failing to make sufficient macro gameplay decisions in order to properly increase their odds of winning. That includes dropping a Survivor and taking the 45s slug instead of hooking sub-optimally. Just as I let the random gen pop to protect my 3 gen, I let the Survivor live for now to ensure I can kill more later.
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@FeryGEN said:
1. A survivor recovering on his own must become an obsession.
Many perks and challenges in the game require obsession, but few survivors use perks that change obsession. It happens that the obsession just disconnects for various reasons and these challenges can no longer be completed. The survivor must have a choice, give the killer the obsession to work his quests, or wait for help in the uplift.
2. Slugging is sometimes necessary, because hanging takes a long time and during this time a generator can be started, so you should slightly speed up the animation of lifting and hanging. For Iron Grasp perks, speed up the pick up and hang animations by 20%.
3. Will Mori's offerings be multiplied by the matchmaking bonus system?
In any case, the bonus should be increased, even if it works with the new reward system +40k for a pink offering, not a very good deal.
4. Hook Offerings, again should give more hooks (at least +1 hook) as in the current situation, hooks spawn terribly far, even with a tribute,And the survivors take advantage of this and fall where there were no hooks at all from the very beginning of the match. In addition, many perks work from hooks (I'm talking about Hangmans Trick), such a buff will be useful.
5. Second slot for killer offerings or see offerings from survivors. I think it's somehow unfair to the killers that they have one slot against 4 survivors, I have already raised this topic many times, if the survivors take the offerings to the distance of the hooks, then the killer will probably be able to inform the survivor, but how to counter their offerings if they also took a map and a basement in a shack, and they themselves fall in the main building?
The killer needs to have a second slot for Sacrifical ward or something.
- No issue, seems fine.
- Slugging is sometimes necessary, so you have 45s to pick them up. Any more is fair to call as BM on the Killer's part. Also if you insta-pickup you deny all value of slugging perks, so those are also dealt with.
- The Mori values are exceedingly low for the hoops needed to jump through. I can use Yellow Rarity Pudding for a max of 40k, but I need a 4k to get 20k with an Iridescent? They should be doubled or even tripled if they want the qualifications to stay as is.
- 1 flat hook per rarity seems more than fair to improve the value of those offerings. That way there is a max of 3 bonus hooks with the Purple rarity.
- Agree and disagree. The Survivor purple hook distance offerings give 1m per offering, and the Killer equivalent gives 3.5m. Those balancing aspects are already dealt with from the numbers. I would say Surivor map offerings should only give 25%, and killer give 100%, from the current 100% each. That way 4 Survs offering the same map gets the same odds as the Killer's map. I also think Sacrificial Wards should prevent offered realms from showing up, instead of removing the bonus. I hate using a Sacri-ward and having the map still show up.
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These changes require a tiny bit more macro gameplay decisions from killer. Since micro has been buffed so effectively through 6.1.0 this is more than fair. If a killer burns their corner hook killing a survivor early they must accept that cost that the lack of hooks provided. Nothing is stopping killers from hooking as close to the center as possible when they know it is death hook.
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I would prefer 30s to reach 95%, 30s more to 95->100%. 1 minute total, but if that is too difficult to program then the 45s is fine. Perks that allow picking yourself up allowing full speed 95->100%. There are no legitimate reasons to slug in excess of 45s outside of BMing. You as Killer had more than enough time to chase off would be pallet/flashlight rescuers and still get the pickup. If you couldn't hook in a corner that is because you lacked macro gameplay and didn't kill the previous survivor on another hook. If people are sabo-ing you have more than enough time to drop and force the 45s slug instead. Typically a would be saboteur is also in a position to give a free hit in the process.
Also note that I am against BM-ing regardless of side, and would be fine with a random number of crouches in the exit gates causing the gates to be blocked for that individual for 30s. Probably at least 3 to prevent strange niche circumstances.
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@YOURFRIEND said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3201090#Comment_3201090
Assuming that two hooking everyone is "playing normally" that's a really easy way to lose most of your games.
That is true if you never learned to compensate for your weaknesses, and adapted accordingly. If you rely on tunneling and camping you fail to learn how to outplay people, which means you "win" without knowing how to win. As seen with facecamping Bubbas being able to guarantee a minimum 2k.
I regularly aim to death hook all Survivors before killing anyone, and I typically only early kill when Survivors are foolish enough to gift me hooks. Healing or gen tapping off of hook in my face, running into me to bodyblock for their ally, etc. I have learned far more from my losses than my victories, and improved accordingly. You can also accelerate your learning by recording your matches and deleting the wins. (You can also review the wins, but only when someone takes you on a longer chase.)
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3201007#Comment_3201007
There should never be a scenario where the survivors are immune to everything the killer could possibly do.
And it’s not just one super scenario where everything is combined. This could be Midwich, where sometime half a floor is missing hooks because BHVR still hasn’t fixed that. This could be a corner of the map where someone died, and now survivors want to run their on purpose to bully the killer because it’s a hook deadzone.
Why aren’t any changes being made to nerf the bully survivors that make slugging required? I often need to leave people slugged because I can’t hook them. Why aren’t there any changes to make it more reliable for a killer to hook someone?
Survivors immune - They still have the 4 minute bleedout timer, they can still be injured, they can still be downed. They are never immune.
Midwich is notoriously Killer sided, so this one sabo interaction is one of the few times the map is made more even. That is far from an issue since you now can quickly down the sabo Surv. The corner map lack of hook is a lack of foresight on the Killer's part. I always death hook Survivors where I want to burn a hook. That is the case of macro gameplay failing on the Killer's part. If the Survs doing gens can always run back to this alleged deadzone corner they are playing a losing game of attrition. You can also injure without downing them, forcing them to group up and heal, or preventing them from using the speedboost to W back into the corner.
There may need to be some changes to this such as my recommendation to instead have 30s to 95%, then 30s more to 95->100%, but the hoops you needed to jump through to prevent this alleged bully abuse are far far far less common than the current excessive slugging abuse this change is meant to curtail. Even with your examples I provided a counter to each of them. It was your unwillingness to try those solutions or even acknowledge their existence that is causing you to feel "bullied" when they happen. Slugging was never required for an excess of 45s. I have provided numerous counters to each scenario I have read. If people are unwilling to learn I cannot force feed them the knowledge they seek. In those cases it appears they are arguing in bad faith and merely want to keep excessive slugging abuse cases, as opposed to legitimately seeking a counter.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3200952#Comment_3200952
“you can always just slug and move on” isn’t counterplay.
And honestly, I really don’t care about the number of people that aren’t doing generators. I care about the number of people that are doing generators. if two people are doing generators uninterrupted, then I don’t care if the other two survivors aren’t doing generators.
And the problem is with tenacity, where they can crawl, and self pickup within 23 seconds.
So in your extreme example you are worried about the 2 Survivors who dedicated Breakdown, Tenacity, Unbreakable, and Saboteur, and you are trying to hook those 2? You never once entertain the thought you should try to hook the 2 on gens? That sounds like a failing on your part. You don't think about defending 3 gens near basement? You don't think about defending the more center gens so they can't sabo you en-route? It sounds like the failing is entirely on you for being unwilling to think. I don't think anyone should be punished for someone else choosing not to think.
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@StarLost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3200188#Comment_3200188
I'm much more concerned about:
- Twins.
- Double locker flashlights (the only realistic counterplay is slugging).
- Spots on the map where survivors can go down and be impossible to pick up.
- Survivor teams turning some maps into hook deserts with sabos. Midwich, Eyrie and a handful of others can be almost impossible to hook on if you get janky spawns and they sabo, as it is.
Twins still has 45s to pickup like everyone else, but I'll be fair and say they more realistically have 30s.
The counter to double locker flashlights is spamming open on one of the two, as the other will run out of juice soon enough.
Impossible to pickup is a fair complaint, but that would still have largely the same effect before and after.
Sabos- see all the counters already listed in this thread by myself and others. Also Survivors stuck on Sabo duty are Survivors not fixing Gens. You will win eventually if you play right. Drop early and often if you have to. Just like Survivors can fall prey to the Sunk Cost Fallacy of gen progression, returning to the same gen popped 10 times, Killers can fall prey to the Sunk Cost Fallacy of specifically hooking one Survivor they downed. Understand and adapt. I loved using Tinkerer Pop on Clown on a single gen with 5 gens still remaining. Some players are so dumb they never learn and that is hilarious to me.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3200752#Comment_3200752
If you pick someone up and drop them, and they can crawl even farther away from the hook, especially if they have tenacity.
The problem with breakdown is if it creates a hook dead zone, then survivors can go there as a safe haven where they killer can’t hook them, and they can pick themselves up.
If they are crawling without Tenacity they cannot recover. That buys you crawl time +45s, you can leave them slugged and go for the saboteur. Also that forces minimum 2 people to not be doing gens, potentially a third if they want to pickup/assist the sabo-ing.
Breakdown only causes a hook deadzone if you relied on hooking in a corner. If they comp-cornered you can either slug and move on or chase the other person. They are also on a timer so you know they will pick themselves back up in basekit 45s. You can reslug them if you have the mobility. It won't take as long since edges of maps don't have things to loop with.
I understand wanting to prevent abuse cases, but this is so hyper specific that it just sounds like you don't care to put forth the effort to think of counters yourself. Also with all things this game the best method for fighting it is using it and finding its flaws. I thought Wesker was too oppressive then I played as him enough to make a Wesker cry falsely thinking I had speedhacks. The 1st dash without the 2nd loses so much distance and drops bloodlust that if you force Wesker to use 1 Dash without a viable 2nd you can loop them forever. Play with and against things you have an issue with and you will find a counter.
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@Config said:
What if someone is on a pallet, what should u do? Let someone get the save? Chase them so they can do it again? And remember the guy on the pallet will already be up if u are not playing blight, nurse or a fast chase killer, which is going lead to even more nurses blight and so on. And what if they have sould guard, they can get endurance and take a hit for the guy being chased? This is absurdly problematic, and if u are playing any killer that benefits from slow balling now they are pretty much dead. Twins, oni etc. And if u want to make a comeback on a team, forget it, now u can't. This is the super bs. Hopping it doesn't make to live game on this state. Just allow the killer to have a yellow memento Mori and that's it.
Fake pickup take the free injure state and then pickup for real. If they were close enough to pallet save they were close enough to get a free injury with most killers. If they get the rescue they permanently lost a map resource if you kick it. If the guy is close enough for a Soul Guard bodyblock the person was looping around the downed person's pallet, which means swing through the pallet. They don't want to drop it since they want to get the rescue. Snowballing can still easily occur with people on hook, chasing a would be rescuer, then downing them before the next person can reach the hook in time. You can then punish a 59s save attempt and get an extra hook state and go back to pick up the person you downed. Letting them rescue the 2nd staged Survivor.
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Do you have to "X" - no, no one ever has to "X". Will it increase the times "X" occurs if "X" increases the probability of the desired outcome - yes. Just because you won't doesn't mean slugging for the final Mori between the last 2 in a winning match won't occur. People would prefer to minimize their odds of the survivor beating them to Hatch, and buying extra time to search for them through slugging the 2nd to last player will help them. Just because you won't do something doesn't mean others share your beliefs or sensibilities. We already have people slugging for 4k, and now they will have a greater reward for doing so. At least now the Survivors will be armed with that knowledge however, as they know the Killer brought a Mori and only gets paid when they Mori someone.
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Most killers don't excessively Slug, and I find all too many Nurses, Blights, and Spirits in my Survivor games already. Only excessive slug killers will swap, so less Onis and Twins. I honestly hate Oni more than most killers so that is fine by me.
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@SuzuKR said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3200626#Comment_3200626
MFW I accidentally down an identical survivor that got unhooked and I don’t wanna tunnel so I slug them, but now I’ll get punished for not immediately tunneling and rehooking them.
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You still bought yourself basekit 45s.
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I'm saying that situation required losing/drawing the match to begin with. You may not personally slug for 4k, but that will be the only way to get Mori BP when you are winning now. If you brought a Mori offering you will have to slug for X k to get the Mori value (or risk Hatch, but why would you risk Hatch when you brought the Mori offering for the BP bonus).
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3200399#Comment_3200399
This is absolutely the biggest buff for bully SWFs. Imagine knocking someone to the ground, and immediately hearing a sabotaged hook falling to the ground, and realizing the survivor can pick themselves up before the only hook in range is reformed. Imagine Breakdown creating giant safe havens for survivors, because killers aren’t allowed to leave survivors slugged anymore.
Breakdown covers 3m per hook, and sabos only cover 30/45s. You can pick someone up, drop them and wait till 29/44s and still get the hook. Breakdown is more than obvious enough if the Killer is lingering in the area as they will see the hook is gone when they returned. Also if they are sabo-ing they aren't working on gens, and are in the danger range for you to get an injury or force a pallet. Sabo squads are my favorite Survivors to face since they are taking a risk-reward action against me. Hiding survivors split on gens are far more annoying as it will slowly win them the game.
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@SuzuKR said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3200364#Comment_3200364
You do realize slugging is a major part for Nurse, Spirit, Blight, Oni, Twins, Plague during power, Myers during T3, and any killer when multiple survivors are nearby right?
You do realize each of those killers have more than enough time to reach the grounded Survivor to pick them up within the 45s timeframe? If someone picks themselves up quicker you make a mental note "Ash" has UB and don't slug him next time to snowball, or down him last. Sorry easy wins won't be as easy, but the first 6 killers you mentioned already have an easy enough time of it. Also if you do complete the 4 man slug you still insta-win going into the Finisher Mori.
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While your scenario is theoretically possible, the more probable outcome is a winning Killer needs to down the last 2 Survs at the same time, forcing slugging and searching for the Mori BP.
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@supersonic853 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3200290#Comment_3200290
Recovery on the floor speed affects the timer. So unbreakable makes it 22 seconds. Have unbreakable and exponential? 11?
The math in the game is additive, not multiplicitive. That means 200% from 45s is 15s, not 11.25. (45/1.0 = 45s, 45/2.0 = 22.5s, 45/3.0 = 15s)
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All Mori offerings require a Finisher Mori, which will make them more annoying to pull off. The BP offerings are largely effectiveness independent. For the Yellow Mori I need to kill one person, then the other 3 need to almost escape but I get one of them down but don't hook them. Even harder for the Green Mori since I need to slug one and force the other to go through the gates before the finisher goes off. The Iri will incentivize slugging for the 4k even more, but at least there is a basekit self-pickup to partially counter that. Technically you can overperform for the lower leveled Moris, but it basically tells you the match will unhealthily end in slugging.
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@dugman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3200491#Comment_3200491
Pudding and Streamers are the exceptions, not the rule. The more common Yellow and Green offerings are 75% and 100% in a single category respectively.
Mori Offerings are also the exception, not the rule. They should be held to the same BP standard. Also as far as I am aware each Offering has an equal change amongst its rarity to show up. Yellow Devious shows up at the same rate as Yellow add-on #3 and Puddings and Moris.
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@Bran said:
1. Baseline kindred would have been better than basekit BT for sure. But since it'd have to be a perk, the killer ahra would be added on the perk probably.
2. Removing grabs is terrible. You should be able to punish a surv if they attempt to unhook in front of you without trading a hook.
3. Killer doesn't need to see the survivor.
4. That's just silly.
5. No actual comment.
6. That's also pretty silly.
Facecamping is boring, but shouldn't impose any penalty or reward.
Tunnelling should be used very specifically. The only real kind of tunnelling is if the killer is specifically targeting someone and not just punishing a bad unhook (or simply re-targeting them because they can).
2- The abuse cases of (face)camping are far more common than the unsafe unhook punishment being necessary. A hook trade is already a feature of hitting someone mid rescue, as it stops the progress/you are animation locked in the end of unhook. This just prevents an extra down without the rescue.
3- It is an attempt to incentivize the Killer to leave hook. Plus free intel is free intel.
4- A fair punishment for BM behavior isn't silly. The reward may be excessive however. Sidenote I would implement a random number of crouches within the exit gate blocks the gates for 30s for the individual. Punishing BM is fine.
6- It was actually fairly well thought out to only punish facecamping without punishing a Killer who is dragged near the hook by a Survivor in chase. Punishing the bad behavior is always good imo.
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@Apostrophe said:
I worry mostly about being able to achieve Merciless Victories with this new system in place. As we know right now, Merciless Victories requires a certain minimum number of hooks. If a survivor ends up dying on his first hook because other survivors don't rescue him, then the killer never gets those other two hooks that may be required for his Merciless count and gets Ruthless or Brutal at best. This will be a big problem in the new system because if you hit five tokens in your first five hooks, then that will remove too many possible hooks to allow you to get Merciless.
Aside from the fact that sometimes you don't want to mori survivors. I run Devour for the Exposed factor. Even after hitting five tokens, I don't use the mori, I just continue hooking to play out the game to it's natural conclusion. The only time I ever use the mori aspect is when a survivor runs into a dead zone where all the hooks are too far away to carry them and you have no choice but to mori them to stop them from continually wiggling off, or if I'm up against a particularly toxic survivor and want to give him a taste of his own medicine. We should have a choice of when to use the mori or not based on the situation. But now it seems like more of a punishment to both the killer and survivor if the game forcibly removes players too early.
That is a very good point, the current version gives the Killer the choice. The dev proposed nerf removes that choice.
I would say the emblem part is ultimately a non-issue however, since it isn't required and only yields monthly BP rewards. When you are playing with a gimmick, emblems are typically not that obtainable anyways. When I run my shaman hex build the match is a feast or famine in terms of emblems and outcomes.
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Mori Offerings - I feel this is a significant nerf in terms of both BP and satisfaction. Yellow Mori is in competition with Pudding, which is worth maximum 40k BP. Green Mori is in competition with BPS, which give the lobby a max of 200k BP, and a personal max of 40k. When the Iridescent is only yielding 20k max, when you need to work hard and ensure a 4k (so now you also have to sweat harder and slug for 4k to not risk Hatch) it only yields you half the max potential of Pudding. That is a big losing proposition imo. The numbers need to be doubled minimum, but I would say tripled. That would make the Yellow Mori worth 24k (so the average minimum for Killer with Pudding), Green worth 32k (solid match without intentionally reaching BP caps), and Iri worth 60k (actually better than Pudding finally).
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A Mercy or Mori prompt could fit that quite nicely. Mercy gives the Survivor Hatch (and all related BP/challenge/achievement rewards associated) and Mori just Moris them.
Edit: Plus I like alliteration so MERCY or MORI sounds cool.
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This is a basic QoL change most MMOs have when you need to traverse a distance. I typically bind it to "r" and tap it when there is no reason to hold "w" the entire time. If you as a Killer know you are going to a gen you can tap autorun and press "a"/"d" while turning the camera to scan the horizon en route. Autorun ends when you press "w"/"s" and you can continue no problem. The purpose is to help reduce fatigue (for your hands and keyboard) in holding one button for extended periods of time. Even 3s would be long enough to justify it imo.
Just because you use autorun doesn't mean you use it 24/7. It is a QoL tool for bursts and I would recommend it for both roles.
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@supersonic853 said:
"Memento Mori Offerings
With the Finishing Mori being triggered automatically when the last Survivor is downed, Memento Mori Offerings no longer have any use and will also receive an update. These offerings will now award a bounty of Bloodpoints based on the number of Survivors killed if you earn a Finishing Mori.
Cypress Memento Mori: Gain 8,000 Bloodpoints if at least 2 Survivors are killed and the match ends in a Finishing Mori.
Ivory Memento Mori: Gain 12,000 Bloodpoints if at least 3 Survivors are killed and the match ends in a Finishing Mori.
Ebony Memento Mori: Gain 20,000 Bloodpoints if at least 4 Survivors are killed and the match ends in a Finishing mori"
I'll always take more bp. This means also a max match can give 60k. Though then im not running a pudding. Hmm. Well its better than nothing at least. The moris give you more than they cost.
Yellow Pudding costing 2500 can give 40k max, Green Streamers costing 3250 can give 200k max (you and the Survs). Even if we were to take the middle value Moris are garbage in comparison. The Yellow Mori gives 8k, Green 12k, and Iri 20k. The Iri gives 1/10th the BP streamers can. Also you can't even guarantee you get the Iri Mori. I would triple the Mori BP rewards so if you earn the harder conditions you get more BP than Pudding or Streamers could get you. That would set them at 24k/36k/60k.
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The nerfs to H:DH & Rancor are uncalled for, but 4 minute slugging has always been a tool for BM, and I am all for removing BM. Killers can always pick up, and wasting people's time slugging for the 4k or bleeding out the team shouldn't happen. I would even be down with a random number of crouches within the exit gate blocks it for them for 30s. No Mither could be better, but for now it appears they like it as a meme/hard mode. The auto end is a bit dumb when you want to give someone hatch and not have Emblem pip penalized for that.
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I love throwing on H:DH and getting the 3/4 man Mori. This is a definite downgrade.
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@Peanits said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3200158#Comment_3200158
It would be pretty quick, but going down near Exponential is easier said than done, and the time you spend crawling to it is time you're not recovering. Bearing in mind that the Killer hears the boon when within range, they could easily kick it before they walk away or judge whether or not it's worth the risk of leaving you slugged. It ends up being pretty situational. Whether or not you think that's worth two perk slots (maybe a third for Tenacity) just in case the Killer slugs you, I'll let you decide.
The killer hears the boon within range - I don't think it is working atm then. Most maps as killer I can only hear boons 8-12m away, not the 24m range that they have. If killers could get a debuff tooltip to tell them they are in range of a boon that would help prevent bugged audio.