mizark3
mizark3
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The easy solution (and correct in my eyes) is to make anti-tunnel Endurance not cause deep wound unless it was a protection hit. Currently though protection hits only count if you take a hit near an injured survivor, so it would have to expand protection hits to include healthy survivors. It might also need an additional check for when Survivors split up but are still within ~8m of each other like S1--K-S2 and the killer swings at the unhooked S2. The extra clause might be something like S2 is closer to S1 than K, or have a 2s grace period after unhook.
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@RaSavage42 said:
I get where you are coming from but who'd want to play that kind of game... maybe some Killers but Survivors don't want to sit on Gens any longer then what we have now...
Also you did just explain the base game but what about all of the Gen perks???
Why not just remove the great skillcheck zones for like 3-5 skillchecks and see how that goes (doing that would reward those that do work on Gens... and get everyone to do something on Gens in order to get the great skillchecks
Survivor's new optimal play would be grouping up, as it is more effective now with the added risk of 2 people being disrupted. I feel like that would be a net positive change.
I did a workup of this idea (different, but in concept the same), and I adjusted a good number of Gen Perks accordingly. If you want to see the details you can check out "DBD Problems and Potential Fixes 1/10 Splitting Up". It was a series of changes to effectively remove camping, tunneling, early kills, solo-ing 3 different gens, and basically punishing all unenjoyable gameplay and rewarding fun gameplay, with even additional sources of greedy BP gains. Killers also gain a basekit Mori if all Survivors are on Death Hook (with bonus BP for Sacrifice), and Survivors can get bonus BP for "100% ing" the map, and not only doing gens.
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@Satelit said:
Because solo teammates are unpredictable and it would be a nightmare if you depended on them more than you already do.
Fair, but things being faster with more people co-operating should be part of the risk/reward balance.
@artist said:
then someone dies and it's impossible to win. pass!
Then each early killed Survivor always counts as an additional teammate on the gen. Easy solution, and it helps punish early kills.
@RaSavage42 said:
No... That is to much even if you did change the perks, Toolboxes and addons
They would have to change the slowdown perks and regression perks on top of that
The current gen efficiencies are 1/.85/.7/.55, this could be swapped to .85/1/1.1/1.25 and keep duo-ing gens just as effective. That would make solo gens take ~105s with our current 90s gens, and duo gens at 45s.
@Crowman said:
This idea is terrible.
Working on a gen with other survivors should not be made more efficient working on a gen solo. You already get more BP working on a gen with other survivors and while it's not as efficient the gen still gets done faster which can be useful for getting a highly contestable center gen done and break up an endgame 3 gen. It doesn't also need to be more efficient.
Survivors working on gens together are already hard to defend as it is due to how fast gens can get done if survivors work on a single gen together. The main trade off is that it's less efficient for survivors to stack.
The gen getting done is more often slower except in those 3 gen final gen instances. The basekit time is 90s/~53s/~43s/~41s. The reason so many Killers feel so pressured is when 3 gens pop after their first chase. This would help gradually end the match rather than progress in bursts. Also nothing would stop the Killer from running Discordance. Finally if people are grouping on gens you get far more pressure when you disrupt them. You get massive value disrupting minimum 2 people for the price of moving to one area.
@adirgeforthedead said:
This would just effectively make Discordance meta and just entice people to run all slowdown builds because people would team up for generators giving the Killer free localisation. Terrible idea.
Slowdown already is meta so that part would change nothing. Also the Killer would have to still commit Discordance to their build limiting slowdows to 3 instead of the 4 all too common now.
@Ayodam said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3197438#Comment_3197438
Perhaps if gens individually took 120+ seconds killers wouldn’t think they had to camp, tunnel, or stack slowdown perks anymore.
Can't tell if joking or serious. That was the logic for the 80->90s gen change and anecdotally I have more Killers camping, tunneling, and stacking slowdown perks now (albeit different slowdowns than before). It would however punish camping since the more people the faster the gens get done, and Deadlock wouldn't block people from doing the most efficient play.
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The reason for the basekit FOV is to simulate how Predators have more narrowed vision in comparison to Prey with greater angles. I am typically all for accessibility, especially for hard of hearing/deaf to show things that you would be able to hear. (Also because that should show up even when the audio is bugged, as it frequently is.) However with more niche issues should people with emetophobia (or the fear of vomiting) be able to hard ban Plague from showing up in their matches? (Although I think people should be able to ban 1 killer per 5 released but that is besides the point.)
I do not suffer from from this particular malady, but from the little research I did put in googling, anything near 90 degrees the brain will accept as "normal". From the wiki it appears the default FOV for killer is 87 degrees, which to me is more than close enough for standard accessibility attempts, even when using the stylized limited FOV for effect. Plenty of people have issues with extended screen time, and I believe this is more likely the culprit for most people. The 20/20/20 eye rule is quite helpful (even if I neglect to use it enough myself). For those unaware the 20/20/20 eye rule is every 20 minutes (or one DBD match combined with queue times), take 20 seconds to look at something 20 feet away. Hopefully most people have a window or long enough hallway to help them in that regard.
I will say some maps perform better in different qualities. (Most better to find people on low, but a few are strangely easier on ultra.) Also Ormond has an issue with scratch marks just not appearing or being so faint to not be visible. Overall however I think an FOV slider would be far too abused by the advantage it would give, which by no means is minor.
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The turn reduction was massive before the soft-rework. Now it is noticeable, but not a big deal. In most matches it is a straight-up upgrade. It gets even memier when you bring Adrenaline Vial with Shredded Notes, for .67s for each charge to recover, taking ~4s to recover all 6 (since Shredded removes 1 charge). I mostly play Blight add-on less and it is far too easy to win even without the absolutely busted add-ons.
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@jesterkind said:
I've never fully understood this argument. Surely if you're dropping far enough to be matched with absolute babies, you're also getting matched with at least comparably low-skilled killers?
It's been my experience that the matchmaking can toss you into some mildly frustrating lobbies from time to time, but it's hardly the only thing that ever happens. Mostly just bringing the closest thing to a self-sufficient build you can is a good insurance against that.
Even the lowest skilled killer can kick every pallet and follow a Survivor to eventually down them, especially with faster Bloodlust T2/3. I think the complaint is more along the lines of people not even attempting rescues when they are reasonably the one who should go. (Eg. 0 Hook Claudette go for the rescue instead of the injured death hook Ace, or once that Claudette gets injured then another person drop their gen to attempt the rescue.)
A good Survivor who always goes for the hook trade in endgame ensuring a 3 man out without them is losing MMR, even when by all reasonable measures they "won". In a lower MMR lobby the remaining 3 Survivors would be too scared to attempt a bodyblock train for a 4-man out. This is moreso a flaw of MMR being individualized on solo deaths as opposed to team deaths, as the system was not designed with asymmetry in mind. The Survivors need to be considered one team (averaging their individual MMR), and have their MMR adjusted from the group escape rate (but modified so a win gives the lower MMR Surv more, and the higher MMR Surv less.)
In normal MMR systems, win and loss are binary. If someone with lower MMR wins against higher MMR the lower person gains more since they were "more skilled" in that match. Similarly a lower MMR person losing to a high MMR person loses less, as the loss was more or less expected.
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Also to add onto what Jarky said, the Syringe is affected by healing speed modifiers. So if someone has 100% bonus healing speed from say Botany Knowledge and Circle of Healing, then it will only take 8s to heal instead of 16s. So sadly it isn't set in stone always taking 16s. After the match you would have to check all potential healing modifiers to gauge how long the Syringe would take to pop.
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@kingcarl2012 said:
And that leads to survivors looping near the hooked survivor to buy more time for the gens to be completed, it been tried and abused already.
Then make a chase disqualify this "camping" qualification. Took me 3 seconds to think of a method to fix that abuse case. Now to be fair you can still camp running left-right left-right, so the killer has to be further from the hooked survivor for say 5s of chase. That way if the Survivor drive-bys the hooked Survivor, then it stays disqualified since the killer is only closer within that 5s to go from 0m to 20m. If the Killer is camping cheesing a chase then it won't count since the Survivor is further. The Killer then leaves the range and the intended "fix" is unaffected by niche interactions. Wait I already thought of this idea and numerous abuse cases in my thread "DBD Problems and Potential Fixes 4/10 Camping".
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@Mandy said:
I can understand the thought behind this - thinking of Trapper traps as technically that's his power and he cannot use them by the hook, but I think disabling a killers power completely near a hook that they've been at for 7s is impractical as there are so many ways this can be abused - Myers in T3 for example wouldn't be able to go near a hook - so you'd have "safe spaces" on the map where survivors are protected and that's something that's very abusable.
Also the STBFL comment re toning it down...a lot of that is on the Obsession in the match, it's very visible if the killer is running this perk and has gained stacks, pretty easy from the survivor side to tell - so to reduce the effect the Obsession can quite easily take a hit and cause the killer to lose their stacks that they've built up. There's outplay around the perk, players just do have to consider what perks the opposing side is running in the game and play around them to a degree.
For the first paragraph I think people would want something more akin to being unable to use M2 within 8m of a hooked survivor, so that wouldn't prevent T3 Myers since he already stalked into T3.
As far as STBFL, the prime users of STBFL have a reliable M2 to never lose stacks (Demo, Wesker, Nemesis). Also often times if I were the Obsession as the 4th person chased in soloq, and the killer leaves me after I drop a pallet or vault a window, I don't know if it was STBFL or them going for an easier chase. Am I required to stalk the killer every match as Obsession on the off chance they run STBFL, then only take hits when they are carrying people? I think something more akin to the Dying Light buff tooltip to let the Obsession know would be good enough for soloq.
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The major issue I have with such disproportionate kill/escape rates is the matchmaking is tied to that. Survivors have ~40% escape rates, which means they net lose MMR 3 out of 5 matches, and Killers have the inverse problem of net gaining MMR 3 out of 5 matches. This makes MMR mean something completely different for both Killer and Survivor. These type of matchmaking ratings are designed around both sides having an equal chance of victory, but kill rates makes the intended system fall apart on itself. When a Killer faces someone of "equal" mmr that means that the Survivor is better at the base escape vs kill system than the Killer is due to the skewed numbers. Since many people respond to being outmatched with frustration and facecamping, they will then resort to those tactics. Since facecamping can result in a minimum 2k (in most normal cases) that helps feed boring unbalanced matches.
To fix this either matchmaking needs to be balanced around 50/50 kill/escape, or not be based on kill/escape at all. Also tactics that require minimal effort should yield minimal rewards. (Early) Facecamping should also yield a maximum of 1k. Endgame is fine, but when a Killer does it early it is all too easy to cheese a "victory".
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@ProfSinful said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3191219#Comment_3191219
The funny thing about that is that you're punished significantly less with merciless storm than you are with DMS
Yeah, plus I am unsure if they changed it, but I think Merciless Storm doesn't count as a failed skill check if you let go and hit the lingering skillcheck. It just blocks the gen and that can move PR regression somewhere else instead. So you can reach 91%, let go (if you are afraid of Pain Res), wait out the 20s, and then finish the gen.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3195570#Comment_3195570
"Since you failed to address all of the other points I made in that comment I shall have to assume that is because you now agree and find them to be true."
Sith Logic doesn't apply to a discussion - so no.
-"I am of the belief that you can't force someone to play fun or fair, but you should make it such a bad idea as to punish you when you choose to do so, regardless of Killer or Survivor player."
You should familiarize yourself about the bet betwen the sun and the wind about who can make a man take off his jacket. No matter how hard the wind blows the man firmly grasps his jacket. The sun gently beams warmth down on the man and he chooses to take it off.
Killers are being forced to tunnel vs strong survivors to have any kind of chance at a fair game. Some killers do choose to tunnel in games where they don't need to do that and other people do it without realizing the current game is not "tryhard".
The best reward we had for scoring multiple different hooks on multiple survivors was Pop goes the Weasel/BBQ. Those were eliminated from being valuable and look what happened - we have more camping as a result. Killer needs some kind of base kit reward for hooking new survivors. No joke - Dying Light Base kit (with the survivor buffs removed) would have been a solid buff for killer. Survivor got BT for free and Killer didn't get a free perk.
What the fruit are you talking about "Sith Logic"? I made 5 points/counterpoints and you only decided to address one of them. That to me means you either cannot defend your position or you know you are wrong on the remaining points. If that were not the case you would have made an attempt to "correct" me. I can understand instances of not knowing how to explain how someone is wrong, but that is typically accompanied by a statement to the effect of "You are wrong, but I can't quite explain how." or "You're not wrong Walter, you're just an ...".
Sun/Wind - Strange, because to me the sun is a blazing inferno of torture. To escape the additional heat I would take whatever steps necessary to avoid such torment. I would avoid the stick/punishment of the sun in your proverb. Also why would the man want to lose a tool used to prevent the extremes in climate? If it rained (which would be common in a storm with heavy winds) and he had no jacket, he would be in an even worse scenario. That "bet" is one of many sayings that are wildly inaccurate when the slightest bit of logic is applied. When they can pass basic scrutiny they are fine, such as The Boy Who Cried Wolf, but your example is an absurdism. Sorry but (wrong lesson) / (stupid) sayings are a Pet Peeve of mine.
Killers are being forced to tunnel to have any chance of a fair game against strong survs - I have consistently been gaining net MMR over my Killer matches (2k with 1 hatch or better), and I have no need to hard tunnel or camp survivors. I do occasionally return at the 45-60s mark of a hook to punish gen greed, but they had 45s to reach the hook and rescue before that happens, and they often do so. Killers actively choosing to tunnel and camp are failing to learn macro gameplay, Killer power niche interactions, and reading Survivors in mindgames. They are self-sabotaging their long-term potential growth for short-term gains, a malady affecting all too much of the modern world in general. By invoking such a crutch, they begin to rely on it for victories, and throw hissy-fits when they lose.
The best reward for varied hooks Pop/BBQ and killers got no basekit perks compared to basekit BT - BBQ yes, but Pop rewarded hooks, regardless of who they were on. So in that case Pop didn't reward varied hooks. Survs got 10s endurance, which was the old T2 BT, but they lost 2 stacking forms of anti-tunnel to lay on top. Survs now only have 1 consistent anti-tunnel effect at a time. Killers also got ~3 basekit STBFL stacks (when combined with the Surv speed reduction), and T1 Brutal Strength. The stick of anti-tunnel BT into DS into DH is no more. Now the stick is only BT or OTR or DH due to the foolish notion that anti-tunnel endurance causes deep wounds. It wasn't the carrot of BBQ that primarily varied hooks, it was the stick of Survivor anti-tunnel effects.
Edit: Weird forum false swear fixed (similar to endgame chat)
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3193820#Comment_3193820
"The only time Survivors "tunnel gens" is when they GenB4Fren, when they pop the gen they are currently working on before going for the rescue."
That is not true. When I say survivors tunnel gens what that means is that they try to finish a complete generator. If something interrupts they will go back to that generator. They won't start a new one. The killer if they are playing smart/efficiently will do the same thing with survivors.
The killer has zero incentive to hook someone they have never hooked before. Imagine for example if you gave survivors a 4% slowdown to all actions for hooking someone new for the first time. Hook all 4 survivors once and you add 16% permanent slowdown. Add Dying light on top of that and that might be a decent perk assuming that 4% slowdown were a base mechanic.
But we don't have anything like that so the killer is only rewarded for eliminating survivors. Likewise survivors are rewarded for completing whole generators.
Since you failed to address all of the other points I made in that comment I shall have to assume that is because you now agree and find them to be true.
As far as Survivor's committing time to progressed gens, that is an action that has costs and benefits. As Killer you gain for more value when the Survivor falls prey to the "sunk cost fallacy", and tries to go back on the gen you already kicked. Now they are in a disadvantageous position and must commit to dropping a nearby pallet to slow you down or give up a free hit. You can then kick the gen again and start back where you were before with the advantage of a damage state on the Survivor or environment's limited resources. Also if they go back again then they can either give another free hit into a down, or your chase with another Survivor can proc Eruption on them, making them waste a potential ~34 gen seconds.
A Killer committing to hard chase off of hook or select out of 2 Survivors on a gen the Survivor who was hooked before has no such risks, and only has rewards. Even if the Killer immediately goes for the unhooked Survivor, they can hear out OTR or not so they can know whether to swing early or count to 11.
As far as incentive to hook unique Survivors I thought of a solution in my thread series "DBD Problems and Potential Fixes", specifically "5/10 Spreading the Pain VS Killing Early", which would basically give a diminished Grim Embrace basekit that can proc twice. Overall though I think the 6.1.0 changes have swung a bit too far in Killer's favor, and giving your suggestion of more carrot would be unwise. At this point I think the stick should be applied. I would go as far as to reverse your suggestion and speed up Survivor's gen speeds on non-unique/spread hooks instead. Probably 2-4% bonus to each Survivor that wasn't hooked, and doubles if already existing. That way with the toggle tunnel on 6 hooks between 2 survivors the 2 remaining Survivors get 96% gen speed bonus each (if 3%). I would even lock in the bonus for the new minimum when a survivor is killed. This would obviously need refining but base concept of reversing your idea seems sound.
I am of the belief that you can't force someone to play fun or fair, but you should make it such a bad idea as to punish you when you choose to do so, regardless of Killer or Survivor player.
Edit: As -> and, it was supposed to be and when I revised the sentence from one that used as
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1 full second was excessive, and if you played the PTB with it as killer or survivor anyone would know. Since this is an online game however, lag should be better accounted for. I would totally be fine with .75s, because all too often matches are just way too laggy. If this were only a LAN/splitscreen couch game I would say .5s is appropriate, and anything more would be too much, but it isn't local only.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3191261#Comment_3191261
"No. Survivors don't "tunnel" gens"
So that means you often get a generator to 20% then leave that generator for no reason and get another generator to 20% and then make sure all the generators are at 20% before working any generator from 20-40%?
No - You've never done that. You try to complete a whole generator.
Also killer really didn't get more powerful with the 6.1 patch. The best killer perks were nerfed to oblivion. Gens were made 10 seconds longer but now everyone is using Prove Thyself and Hyperfocus. Good players are completing gens faster than ever before. Breaking a pallet 10% faster does nothing - streamers made videos before the patch showing what 100% faster pallet breaking looked like. It did nothing because most maps have insane pallet density throughout the map.
Pop Goes the Weasel used to save me about 120-180 seconds per game. I did the math in another thread and on average kicking low-middle progress generators only saves 50-60 seconds with nerfed pop.
Meanwhile Survivors get 10 seconds of borrowed time base kit. Killers don't get any perk to compesnate. Much less Borrowed time was the only meta perk that got buffed instead of nerfed. It makes no sense.
The only time Survivors "tunnel gens" is when they GenB4Fren, when they pop the gen they are currently working on before going for the rescue. That is also the strategy Survivors are supposed to do to counter camping.
Popping a gen (or all gens for that matter) doesn't mean the killer cannot play the game anymore, and as another poster mentioned that would be like a killer stopping a chase when they are 10m away from a survivor without a reason to.
Breaking a Pallet does nothing - a normal 4.6 killer chasing a normal 4.0 survivor will catch up after a 2.6s pallet kick in 17.33s. The improved 2.34 now takes 15.6s. That is 1.733 saved chase seconds per pallet. Also the old speed boost and hit cooldown gave an estimated 20s of an injured survivor running, now it gives ~18s. Those are not nothing nor insignificant.
Pop vs other gen regression - Old pop could be applied to whatever gen you want, but you have to take the travel time you lose into account. How many of those 120-180s did you lose going towards a gen, kicking it, and not chasing a survivor providing pressure. Also SH:PR regression numbers were unchanged, and most other gen kick perks were buffed. Also Eruption gives 25 incapacitated seconds in addition to the 9 seconds of regression. That makes every average value Eruption 34s compared to Pop's 20s. Eruption could also have more or fewer, so in a best case scenario Eruption gives you 84 gen seconds when hitting 3 people trying to prevent a 3-gen or finish a final gen.
Basekit BT no compensation for killers - Killers received the lion's share of the advantage here. The old circumstance for countering hard tunnel off hook would be 1. Hit into BT causing Deep Wound 2. DS after getting downed and 3. DH to delay the chase even longer. The new circumstance is 1. Hit into (basekit or perk) BT causing Deep Wound 2. OTR oh wait Deep Wound blocks that hmm well maybe 3. DH to delay? nope, Deep Wound also blocks that. So before there were 3 meaningful steps to counter tunneling, now there is only one. What if someone didn't have multiple of those perk effects? Well then in the old case the survivor could fake out DS by hiding in a locker. The killer now has to risk DS whether it is there or not. In the current case if you cannot hear the survivor's grunts of pain you swing instantly (to proc OTR), and if you do hear them then you count to 10 (or wait for the visible speed boost to run out). This claim also is ignoring the above mathed out basekit T1 Brutal Strength and STBFL at 2 stacks.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3192802#Comment_3192802
"My point is Pop is being used regularly by an average number of people"
It used to have 75% usage on killer because it worked. I can play survivor for a week and maybe see it once. That level of drop off shows that the perk is dead. If we want to talk about technicalities - Latin isn't a dead language because it is taught in school. For the same reason pop is technically not dead. Some people use it not realizing how little it does now - but most people figured it out and use something else.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3192817#Comment_3192817
Even the most casual groups I watch on twitch share information. "He has Bamboozle" gives you a warning before you should know. Imagine if your perks were all visible next to your character profile for the killer to see in a SWF game. Even small messages like the killer is over here let you know when to make the right decisions.
The simple obvious answer is that SWF gives an advantage therefore people want to play in a SWF to get an advantage at no cost. That's not fun or fair to play against as killer.
What I am saying is the value gained from added intel is often squashed by the disparity of your friend's skill levels. It also can backfire when someone says "(s)he's on me" and the killer left while rounding a corner. Getting a free hit that a soloq player wouldn't have received. It requires a different play style, and failure to adapt is on the killer. Weaponize your enemy's tools against them.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3186912#Comment_3186912
"SoloQ is now miserable"; "Also SWF means more information. Not a bully squad"
Playing solo as the killer against an organized SWF is terrible. It's even worse when you don't know it is coming so you have the wrong perk build. Many of the perks simply don't work against a SWF.
Also playing solo as survivor largely depends on how good you are personally. People who have been playing for thousands of hours who can generally carry do well enough to safety or pip playing solo. Getting to that point can be an unfun experience.
Once upon a time there was an oversight where people figured out a way to equip extra perks as killer. This was quickly patched out as it was seen as an exploit. If we can communicate well as a SWF we might be getting 12 perks worth of information - or more. Don't you think that's a bit excessive? I have played with minimalist SWF groups that only get 4 perks worth of information and that still gives a huge advantage.
SWF is the biggest advantage you can get as a survivor because it makes you instantly better at the game with no cost.
To use content creator references I would say most SWFs are like AFK During Campfire, and are a group of friends BS-ing around the game. Very few SWFs are the Hens styled survivor survival streak sweat squad. SWF also doesn't help me when my fourth is bad at the game, and we are playing together. If anything, it brings me down because now the killer has 1 person they can easily down and can intercept people going for the rescue.
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Typically if I feel like I have to pressure the hook it is because either the survivors are way better than me, and I need to cheese to "win", or the map is far too large. Monstrous Shrine is especially strong against survivors you are evenly matched with, since most smart survivors go for 50-59s saves. This makes survivors need to go for 40-49s saves, so you can punish genb4fren very effectively. This does require you to be quick on finding the closest survivor and chasing them away from hook however. If you let someone sneak by quickly the perk loses its value.
In general if you are already running Pain Res and Floods of Rage it is an excellent 3rd Scourge perk, that also gives you more Hooks to use. It is a very feast or famine build though, since it banks on 3 perks that only give rewards for downs in specific areas. You also need to be a killer that doesn't rely on multiple other perks to be "playable" like say STBFL for basic M1 killers. I find it to be great on higher mobility killers and killers than can use their power to consistently down survivors. Dredge/Onryo/Wesker for mobility, and Wesker/Blight/Nemesis for power downs.
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@ProfSinful said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3188118#Comment_3188118
I think that it comboing with dms is a problem tbh. The numbers are fine
Yep, it was a problem the devs even wanted to address when they originally did the perk shakeup in 6.1.0. They then went back on that since the Merciless Storm unique interaction was a harder nut to crack than its combo with DMS.
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It looks like she moved to the side each time then ran back during the tentacle reload animation. I would suggest checking out with 2 survs in a custom to see if that is the case. (Surv 1 trying that out and Surv 2 being a "cameraman" from the side or directly ahead.)
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Better yet pick Stealth Killers or Doctor.
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@ByeByeQ said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3190910#Comment_3190910
I don't know how often you encounter cheaters but I haven't encountered a blatant cheater in months and I play a lot.
Non-cheating survivors can let themselves out. By death or doing the objective. Cheaters can't hold all the players in the game hostage for extended periods, just the killer. Not without extensive effort or multiple cheaters. Cheaters are their own problem, an easily abused mechanic by normal players should not be added to the game to combat cheaters.
I still see no good reason for your mechanic to exist. If there was good reason, I'd be more willing to entertain it.
I still think it'd be hard for BHVR to implement as they can't (or just won't) implement a perk search bar. But I am not a programmer or a coder, what do I know.
Thank you for helping me keep this thread near the top of the feedback forum for as long as we have.
The search aspect could be a result of backend issues, which are in general more difficult to deal with especially when you need to keep the game functional for as many platforms as they currently do. Plus for console you would have to integrate the console keyboard feature which usually is annoying to deal with from my limited experience (not always difficult, just annoying). The perk numbered tabs were in all likelihood something that existed in the background, but simply wasn't shown before. (If they used arrays or something similar in scope.)
The reasoning for anytime opening gates was if you as killer didn't want to play when clearly outmatched, be that in stealth or chase (independent of the number of survivors, or because as a killer you didn't bring enough intel or chase perks). It hopefully would mirror the survivor surrender/hook suicide feature currently usable, but for killers as well. However this killer surrender feature would have built in penalties for the abuse cases unlike the current survivor equivalent. (I think that should also have penalties for abuse, but that might currently be too difficult to compare abuse versus use eg. Slippery Meat or being bad at the skillchecks compared to Nurse/Blight/Temper Tantrum suicides.)
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40k free BP - You are stuck on the wrong part, it can be 1k points per minute or 100 points per minute or 10 points per minute. Numbers for rewards are easy to change.
Too easily abused - I provided a counter for every abuse and made them worse than the current basement defender or legally not banable AFK but in spirit AFK equivalent. So that is a lie.
2 hiding scenario - and I provided a reasonable expansion upon the idea, which you said yourself was probably not going to be used by BHVR so why would more carefully thought out ideas not be helpful?
15 minutes - that's fair if you want to stick to your premise and not improve upon it any further than that.
Cheaters - Because the killer can let out the non-cheating survivors and help the community as much as possible. That would necessitate a menu option for both gates since cheaters can block gates with the fake hook, then move over to the other gate before the killer can reach it. I have a YT vid of a cheater doing that to me that I used for their report, but luckily the survivors were able to open the other gate since he popped all the gens in a second to troll me.
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(For those who actually program the above post is meant to be a hybridization of English and code for the sake of understanding. I know plenty of reasons that post in particular is wonky, but I wanted to show how 7 paragraphs of explanation can actually only be roughly 1 or 2 lines of code.)
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IF (MT<10 AND (EXITGATES.OPENBYKILLER IS TRUE)) THEN (KILLER MMBAN = ET AND SURVIVORBONUS = 1000*ET)
Sorry you don't understand programming but that in general is very easy. I used more words to break things up into simpler bite size chunks, but I can't force feed someone. If you choose to remain ignorant that is your own fault, as I made an honest effort every step of the way to communicate with you. The failure is on your end.
Edit: Spelling
2nd Edit: Also to account for the safety pip 2nd clause
IF (MT=>10 AND (EXITGATES.OPENBYKILLER IS TRUE)) THEN (SURVIVORSAFETYPIPMINIMUM = TRUE)
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My suggestion is far from complicated at all, and I am sorry if I lacked in clarity. Alternatively the perceived simplicity to me comes from a soft background of programming, but what to me is simple mathematical reasoning in general as well. For that I don't know what point I need to address, so I shall try to simplify. The problem with clearing something up however, is that it takes more words to ensure someone understands something by explaining each intricacy of it. I will say I only introduced the ban system to give a penalty for an abuse case you pointed out, but was not unique to this. Even with the proposed matchmaking ban, AFK is still an illegal response to bad map, but in order for the killer to be penalized they must be reported by the survivors. This would automate the soft ban against an early open killer, just as using the "Leave Match" feature has soft bans be automated.
There are 2 defined situations for newly proposed early opens. The first is before 10 minutes. The second is any point before the game currently allows the killer to, or more accurately, before all the gens are completed.
In the first case, the killer is penalized and survivors rewarded based on the timer. This is a sliding scale such that instant quitters are penalized, but someone finding a cheater would have enough time to record evidence and quit when they are ready. In the early open case the killer is penalized with a matchmaking ban for each minute the gates were opened early, and survivors are rewarded similarly. If I open the gates 0s-59s into the match, it counts as a 10 minute penalty/reward and 1m-1m59s counts as 9 minutes. Survivors get the 1k BP (in each category) multiplied by 10, for the early minutes, resulting in 10k BP in each category, capping them at 40k. At the same time the killer is matchmaking banned for 1 minute per early minute. In this case 1 times 10 is 10, so 10 minutes of matchmaking ban. If in that match I as the killer did that at the 5 minute mark the multiplication works out similarly. (10 minute timer - 5 early minutes = 5 reward/penalty multiplier. 5*1kBP equals 5k BP for each survivor category, and 5*1 minute equals 5 minute matchmaking ban.) Note that the numbers were mentioned to be WIP, and could be modified however BHVR sees fit. I was using a simple baseline for the thought experiment.
This is among the simpler of programming statements that can be made. Early Timer = ET, with Early Timer being defined by 10 minutes minus Match Timer (or MT) in minutes. Match Timer is just the the time elapsed, aka however long the match lasts. So the programming statement would be something like (10 - MT = ET). If this formula is negative, it doesn't use this. (In the case of 2 survivors hiding and working on/tapping gens for 20 minutes, 10 - MT of 20 = ET of -10, negative so it doesn't use the system.)
Now in the second case, that is used for survivor safety pips as an alternative. If either early open method is used (ET being not negative or gates are opened before gens are completed), survivors get minimum of a safety pip for emblems. If the survivors still managed to get better then good for them, but it ensures the minimum they get is a safety pip.
As far as the AFK killer concept, the killer doesn't need to actually AFK. The killer can play "basement chest defense" or whatever meme they desire, but the result is typically not enough BP for survivors. I don't see a problem for a 10 minute plus matchmaking time cooldown (due to the built in matchmaking ban) yielding a max of 160k BP, as it is meant to be a disincentive on the killer end, and an apology on the survivor end. Also it doesn't need to be applied to the actual categories, it could be an untyped bonus like White Glyphs, and those I don't believe are affected by BP offerings. I originally wanted to apply it to the categories so it wouldn't fully stack with earned BP. Alternatively if the first early condition is met it could refund items, add-ons, and offerings. I think that would be more difficult than simple BP however.
I thought of expanding your system, and addressed the adjusted system with your criticisms. Each criticism was addressed, so there should be no more complaints correct?
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3188943#Comment_3188943
I don't play chainsaw killers, so i don't know about them. But i play as Nemmy and Nurse. Yeah, it is strong map against Nurse but you still can do well if you can read survivors.
That was exactly my point, it is a rare fair map to play against Nurse on.
I would recommend going into a custom lobby and just testing out the hitboxes on those shrubs. They feel like they get 2 extra feet from the visual and that just makes the map feel horrible to lose on. You didn't lose because the survivor outplayed you or you misplayed, you lost because the map/your eyes lied to you.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
I don't know why people hated it but Garden of Joy decent is map. Main building is a bit problematic but it is not big deal. Most of loops are fair for both sides, map is not so big. So it is easy to pressure on gens.
Try playing a chainsaw or ranged killer and test out the reddish bushes. Those hitboxes are far from fair for killer. Also there is an excess of pallets all throughout the map, with too many requiring Bloodlust before being mindgame-able. I would say when the survivors are dumb enough to pop main gen early it isn't a problem, but otherwise those windows are disgusting. I will say I do like the aesthetic, and is a very fun map to play against Nurse on, with plenty of simple LOS blockers. It also is a rare case of having enough grass to actually play Trapper on, unlike other recent maps like RPD and Eyrie.
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@ByeByeQ said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3188884#Comment_3188884
Generally with my suggestions to BHVR I try to make them as easy to implement as possible as we know how fond of easy solutions they are.
So with my suggestion they only have one step; make it possible to open the gate once only 2 survivors remain. Simple and doesn't require any other steps. If they wanted to get fancy they could negate or lessen any MMR gain for the 2 survivors should they escape and the killer already has a guaranteed 2K so their MMR isn't going down anyway.
Perhaps they could make it so the killer could open the gate no matter what after a certain period of time like 10 or 15 minutes but they still need to solve the cheaters using the hanging position to hold the game hostage after the Endgame Collapse has elapsed anyway.
Your idea is easily abused by MMR manipulators, people who are already prone to quitting early, map dodgers and killers who want to give free bloodpoints to survivors. The killer being able to pop the gate in the first minute and give all survivors max score is just silly. It would also be difficult to implement requiring too much extra coding while just not being good for the game.
Ease is understandable. After 10/15 minutes would be a fine alternative condition to the 2 survivor concept.
MMR manipulators can still do so, so no new abuse cases can be formed. Specifically as survivor I am never forced to exit through the gate (unless a killer carries the survivor there and drop spams at the right angle, but the survivor can stay away from gates and struggle), and as killer I am never forced to 3rd hook a survivor. Also the killer could just AFK as already mentioned.
Prone to quitting early players and map dodgers would get the ban mentioned above, so already accounted for. Again, they can also just AFK currently so no new abuse cases would occur.
Killers who want to give free BP. I am not seeing a problem here? I can already refuse to hook survivors as killer, and survivors would get the 7k escape bonus should they choose to. Also accounted for with the 10 minute ban if done at minute 0. As Wesker I often have to get people to struggle off my shoulder or drop spam them and M1 them again to down them in order to cap on Brutality BP. I think that is because the M2 is bugged and doesn't give any of those points. Also co-operative farming (that is killer and survivors working together), which is technically bannable, is only bannable under the assertion that you are "Working with the opposite team to gain an advantage". In this "surrender" case the killer gains no advantage, and the survivors did nothing to work with them. So again, no new abuse cases.
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@ByeByeQ said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3186598#Comment_3186598
It's also just too abusable by map dodgers. "Oh RPD, let me just open the gate..."
The killer can still AFK or facecamp to map dodge, so this adds no new abuse case scenarios. However adding onto my thought below, it could Matchmaking Ban early opens for the duration of the early open. In that case 10 minutes is the early open timer, and if you open at the start before a minute runs out you get a 10 minute ban. This could also be adjusted to half or other methods.
Also my comment replying to yours from the thread where you came up with the idea, but in this more appropriate setting.
I would take this a step further and let the killer open the gates at any point in the match. If the killer opens it early all currently living survivors get 10k BP per category, minus 1k (per category) per minute passed (10 minutes pass and 0 BP is bonus awarded). That way if a killer wants to hard meme and go for a first minute 4k from Blood Warden, the survivors still get BP. It also can serve as a form of surrender by the killer, and can potentially counter cheaters. It wouldn't work when they do the false hook in front of the gate, but that could be changed by allowing the surrender to be a menu option and opening both gates when using the menu. If survivor pips are an issue it can allow safety pips if opened early. (This opened early being any time before gates currently can be opened.)
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@ByeByeQ said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3188607#Comment_3188607
I proposed that the killer have the option to open the gate once only 2 survivors remain.
Scenario: There are 2 healthy survivors hiding around the map and the killer has no idea where they are. The killer opens the gate.
In what way does this favor the killer?
There is only one way I can see; the match will guaranteed be over in 2 to 4 minutes.
Please enlighten my obviously pistachio-sized brain.
I would take this a step further and let the killer open the gates at any point in the match. If the killer opens it early all currently living survivors get 10k points per category, minus 1k (per category) per minute passed. That way if a killer wants to hard meme and go for a first minute 4k from Blood Warden, the survivors still get BP. It also can serve as a form of surrender by the killer, and can potentially counter cheaters. It wouldn't work when they do the false hook in front of the gate, but that could be changed by allowing the surrender to be a menu option and opening both gates when using the menu.
Edit: To be clearer, opening early would be within the first 10 minutes. If you open the gates at the 5 minute mark each living survivor gets 5k BP per category. My version above could be misread to think it would take up to 40 minutes.
2nd Edit additional thought: This can also make hard tunneling or quitting survivors less painful for living survivors as the killer can end the match sooner should they choose.
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@SuzuKR said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3185988#Comment_3185988
It’s the survivors’ fault for getting 3-genned in the first place though. They should be doing gens. If the killer and other survivor is doing what you said, that’s reportable anyways. A hard time limit on the match would be good though. If it runs out, everyone dies and the game ends. Eg, 30m.
I would agree that as a team it is the survivor's fault, but more often than not it is a single survivor's fault for a 3-gen. It sucks to be part of the 3 other survivors who get punished because of their "supposed ally's" mistake. (I say supposed in the same vein people say Self-Care is a killer perk.) Similar to how people dislike Myers, Oni, and Plague for being punished when they weren't the one to slip up.
I do like the idea of a time limit, but it should end in ties for killer and living survivors, not death. The killer failed their objective just as much as the survivors failed their own. Both sides should receive a disparaging message from the entity, but no added punishment. I would say if it reaches endgame it should still play out normally or set the timer to 5m, in the cases of a 29m gen pop or sacrifice.
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@KOTheRipper said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3187220#Comment_3187220
His evidence is ancedotal, just as yours is.
"Emblem system didn't prevent facecamping"
- it wasn't supposed to PREVENT facecampers. It was meant to DISCOURAGE them. Just changing emblems obviously isn't going to make everyone not face camp. But the point was to affect some players to change their strategy.
-And from my experience it has. Killers keep in mind the rules of the emblem system and work around them when they are wanting to rank up. They try to stay at least the minimum distance away unless a survivor is near.
-Camping/Tunneling becomes a problem again when either of these conditions are met.
1. The Camper has reached max rank, thus can't de-rank and has no reason to play for ranks.
2. The player doesn't care for ranks in the first place. Either because they aren't interested in the rewards (knowing they wont hit max rank cause they are limited on time, max accounts, ect.) or because they play for a different goal (rp'ing as a killer)
Changing BP interactions during matches would influence the types of players who are still trying to progress and it's more direct than penalizing rank progress.
I am not saying BP should not be used to disincentivize, I am saying more should be done as well. The max rank camping aspect is new to the current Emblems from the MMR change, as before deranking was possible. So in a way they conditionally incentivized facecamping with that change. The players who wanted to "reach red rank" are now trying to "reach max MMR", and facecamping is a net positive for MMR when it wasn't for old red ranks.
The Emblem system, while flawed, still imo was a more accurate indicator of skill for most killers than the raw kill ratio. Now to be fair, those extremes for Emblems such as Plague for Chaser and Survivor Altruism (no altruism, which could be helped with a cure vial temporary item at fountains), exposed/instadown for Chaser (double the reward if healthy->dying for a quick fix), and Wraith farming Chaser (uncloak hit = short chase, no matter how long cloaked), did need some better adjustments. You also needed 9 separate hook actions as killer for Iri Sacrifice, which can't happen as effectively when you camp out hook states.
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@BrokenSouI said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3187059#Comment_3187059
I don't see how this is relevant. The other killers are 4.6 after. Making them faster then survivors
The speed of the killer when using their power is quite relevant to whether or not they got a hit from its use. It was a tongue in cheek response to everyone saying how "slow" she is, when the use case is far from it. She still has access to basic attacks from the 4 conditions I laid out previously in this thread, as well as potentially more. The overwhelming power of Nurse should be enough justification to make Blink Attacks as Special Attacks. It would just need an extra qualifier to allow for grabs if that was the reason it wasn't swapped according to the poster who allegedly quoted a dev.
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@ProfSinful said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3187210#Comment_3187210
This and then scourge hooks can be adjusted accordingly (I.E. pain res getting nerfed)
I honestly don't think SH:PR should be nerfed. I also think Pop was fine at 25% max. Both of those require a down and a hook in order to get value. That seems like a fine cost for the rewarded value. Now against the highest end of effective killers in pub matches (which pub matches are most games) that can be a bit punishing. I think the problem is with those killers as opposed to say Legion and Trapper using those same perks.
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@ByeByeQ said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3187210#Comment_3187210
I heard they reverted it and gave it it's scream back because of its overextension of the Merciless Storm skill checks to over 40.
My version would still double the Merciless Storm skill checks, but killers wouldn't get the lockout for free no matter what. If the survivor stays on it and hits the checks they get the gen done but the killer has the opportunity and information to go over there and pressure the gen to get Merciless Storm value. This encourages the killer to leave the hook to interact with a different survivor which would be good for the game. Instead with the current version the killer can choose to camp and still always get Merciless Storm and Pain Resonance value.
I also think that Scourge Hooks should lose their Scourge after being used 3 times. One well placed Scourge Hook can win the game by itself for the killer. Perhaps it causes the Scourge to choose a different hook, or perhaps not.
Something should be done about the famine scenarios, your quadrant idea is a good idea.
I don't mean only 3 uses by the semi-fixed RNG, I only meant the spawn AI RNG. The current RNG is any hook, and semi-fixed RNG would be the quadrant concept. It is good for both sides to clearly see that one hook is Scourge, so Survivors can go down away from it, and others have a chance to bodyblock or sabo. If they still go down near that hook when they know it is a Scourge, then the killer deserves the higher reward it is meant to entail.
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@fake said:
There is no need to worry, as the killer should have an auto-memento feature under development when the last remaining survivor is or becomes in a slagging state.
That still doesn't account for the annoying and timewasting slug for 4k between 2 survivors, and would serve the game much better to skip to the hatch race. Any tomes for 4k can be changed to the current tome "no survivors escape through the exit gates."
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@emetSdidnothingwrong said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3187110#Comment_3187110
You should take a social science class because you are so far off the mark that it's just outright silly.
You say that but provide no evidence for your claim. My evidence is that the Emblem system (used for matchmaking before MMR for those unaware) penalized (and still penalizes) camping by subtracting points from your chaser emblem, and that system would allow for deranking. That did not prevent facecampers, and they have still not stopped.
When I say ineffective I am not saying it provides no help, just not as much help as an alternative.
When I say mechanics I am referring to results. If an efficient facecamping Bubba doesn't receive the results of a minimum 2k, and instead gets a 0k, they won't do it anymore. One possible mechanic would be something similar to a Pyramid Head cage to prevent camping.
Edit: Spelling (In the original draft I changed effective into efficient and the spellcheck didn't read effecient as incorrect the first time)
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@ByeByeQ said:
A flat 15% for just hooking someone on a scourge hook is already the best regression perk in the game that doesn't require kicking. Getting a scream as well that sets off both Dead Man's Switch and Merciless Storm is just a ghastly garnish making already strong perks into an overpowered combo.
Here's how I'd love to see Pain Resonance:
- Lose the scream altogether.
- Make it 10% regression.
- Bring back the notification from before 6.1.0.
This would make Pain Resonance only a decent regression perk but a better information perk.
Also it would give killers a target so they leave the hook. It would be better for the game.
It, like most Scourge Hooks, are very snowball like in nature. I wouldn't be opposed to this idea, although I think the current version is fine. Remember that the only reason it got semi-reverted to this state is because of a niche interaction with Merciless Storm. Instead of capping the time on Merciless, we got the wombo combo with Deadlock back that they sought to remove. Because of that I don't believe they will make this change on that basis alone.
In general I think the access to Scourge Hooks is too feast or famine. They should be a bit more high risk high reward. I think retooling Scourge Hook Spawn AI with semi-fixed RNG (ala Pig) to guarantee 1 hook per "quadrant" of the map would provide much more fair access to using or preventing Scourge Hooks.
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@SuzuKR said:
It being good against survivors misplaying or a complete gimmick build does not make something busted. I'm not sure why you came up with those sets of parameters. Why couldn't a survivor be in the TR? Just keep distance from the others and make distance from a downed survivor. You can do a corner gen just fine, it's just obviously a risk that you have to choose to take, much like how cornering yourself to do a gen is dangerous against basically every single killer in this game and especially any mobile one.
It being so excessively good does make it busted, and if Exposed was only utilized on the 4 conditions I laid out it would not be excessive.
A survivor can't be within TR from your defenses of Nurse across multiple threads. Typically in defense of Starstruck and/or Awakened Awareness. The majority of times someone was within TR that was a massive misplay on the survivor's part, as opposed to a natural and unavoidable result of the match.
Doing a corner gen is not a risk a survivor chooses to take when the game requires 5 out of 7 generators to be completed. I would say an average of 3 spawn in corners, forcing a minimum of one gen to be 100% forced upon the survivors if they wish to complete the match instead of wait out the death of their allies and risk hatch instead.
Edit: Every time -> The majority of times
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@emetSdidnothingwrong said:
So plenty of people complain about killers doing this and BHVR has added a few mechanics as well as perks to help combat it, which are good imo. However, I think in addition to the "negative" things BHVR has added for killers doing this they should also add something positive to give people a more selfish reason to chase someone else.
My idea is very simple and it's also a two birds one stone thing too: Currently you get 700 points perk hook, my idea is keep this but add an extra 500 if you hook someone different from the last. This would do two things, the first is making it actually possible to hit the new 10k cap, the second is it gives killers a positive reason to not tunnel and not camp. If you camp you get an extra 200 points for the new hook state, however if you let them get unhooked and hook someone new the next time you come back to that first person you now get 1200 points for hooking instead of 200 for camping them to the next state.
TLDR: Make hooking a different person give you an extra 500 points vs tunneling the same one. Hook Survivor1 get 1200 points, hook Survivor1 again get 700 points *VS* Hook Survivor1 get 1200 points, hook Survivor2 get 1200 points, hook Survivor1 again get another 1200 points, etc, etc.
Of course this won't "eliminate" camping but nothing ever will and wanting it totally eliminated is short sighted and shows you don't play killer vs strong teams. Carrot and Stick. Carrot and Stick.
Points are an ineffective form of combatting undesired behaviors. Mechanics are the only thing people will respond to. Bubbas can still facecamp out a minimum 2 kills, outside of a major misplay on the Bubba's part. (Not M2ing Reassurance users, and hooking where you can't Reassurance through the wall/floor. Even if you slug the Reassurance, it still forces another person to pick up unless they are a SWF and brought a usable Unbreakable/Exponential.)
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@SuzuKR said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3187062#Comment_3187062
Semi-off topic to the thread, but I honestly think slowdown and second chance are both basically bandaids for poor map and tile design. Because think about this. If:
- All maps were evenly-sized (not puny like Midwich or Gideon or whatever, not giant like half the maps in this game)
- Tile spawn logic was way less extreme on either end (no giant dead zones, no triple long wall jungle gym into shack, etc)
Then traversing the map and chases would both happen quicker, right? Then this means pressuring different locations and generators on the map becomes more frequent. Which in turn would reduce the pressure to run slowdown as well as employing strategies that are situationally risky against better players (tunneling/camping/slugging). Which in turn would reduce the pressure to run second chance.
Slowdown perks could be almost entirely removed at this point. Slap on some basekit protection against camping/tunneling to make it less appealing than playing without doing so in a map and tile system where it's not even necessary to do it. Then most second chance perks could also be entirely removed. Then the result is people who used those strategies for strategic value will not do so, because it will be less rewarding than playing without doing so.
Eg, why would someone tunnel through 15s basekit BT (that removes the unhooked survivor's collision) and basekit good DS or similar anti-tunnel equivalents when playing without doing so would be way more effective since maps and tiles are both way more manageable? People who will do it regardless because they don't care will have to chew through whatever additional difficulties exist.
Unfortunately, this is an insane amount of work I don't see happening anytime soon.
I do agree that maps are the prime issue for both sides, but I don't believe it is responsible for choosing to tunnel. But as you said, that is getting a bit off topic of the proposition.
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@SuzuKR said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3187065#Comment_3187065
Cornering a survivor from blink corraling takes an extended period of time unless the survivor was already out of position in the first place which is on them. If they were there because they chose to do a gen in said risky location, that is still on them and a risk they voluntarily chose to take.
Spasmodic is a meme. People shouldn't be that close to a Nurse to be in Agitation carry-attack range in the first place regardless of her build. She's a hyper-snowbally killer. It would be like grouping up against an Oni in Blood Fury. Matchbox is utter garbage, 105% is a joke.
If you are going to make the claim that cornering takes so long, then I will match that claim. Assuming that supposition of full counterplay is true against Nurse, a survivor has to never touch a gen within Terror Radius, never do a corner gen, and never be within Bond distance of another survivor. Since there are typically 4 corners of the map and at least 2 of them typically have a gen if not all 4, that means Survivors need to complete the (hopefully) 5 middle gens while never entering the Nurse's terror radius and also never bumping into another Survivor's Bond radius in order to actually play against Nurse. That also is assuming that you don't have a permanent source of Exposed such as Devour Hope or NOED.
Spasmodic is a meme, but that is a valid source of basic attacks within the Nurse's potential since you don't even need other Killer's perks to access it, unlike most forms of Exposed. Also Agitation carry range can be the Nurse hitting a hiding survivor, which would be a Survivor misplay, but not a "to hell and back" level of misplay. Matchbox is still a source, as people can get a blink close enough to not swing, and close the distance walking instead of blinking, since the survivor likely won't be near any pallets or windows.
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@SuzuKR said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3187059#Comment_3187059
Nurse's basekit will never ever end up in a situation where she lands an attack without blinking unless a survivor misplays to hell and back. Blight and Wesker can play without using their power a single time at all and still score hits by virtue of being 4.6m/s.
Nurse cornering a survivor from blink corraling and lunging at them, Nurse carrying a survivor with Agitation (with or without Starstruck), Spasmodic Breath add-on, Matchbox add-on. Those are 4 methods I could think of off the top of my head. A Nurse cornering someone isn't the survivor misplaying if their only choice is to not run into her. She is more than strong enough without basic attack blinks. You don't need to misplay to hell and back as survivor, just a tiny bit.
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@SuzuKR said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3187052#Comment_3187052
Then that means the game should be adjusted in some other way to help counteract that. For instance, better information for solo queue so they can coordinate properly in response to early wanton tunneling. Or other forms of mechanics to help with that. So on and so forth.
Even when playing with friends and coordinating bodyblocks when a killer is hard tunneling the not so good friend, that still isn't enough and we can't crank out gens faster than the killer can hard tunnel. This is partially due to there only being 1 plausible level of anti-tunnel at the moment due to endurance not stacking, and DS being nerfed out of existence.
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@BrokenSouI said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/346388/nurse-special-attack
Because the rest are 4.6 and can catch up normally. Nurse cannot
Yeah I mean Nurse only moves at 13.33m/s while blinking, nowhere near Wesker's 14m/s Virulent Bound and Blights 9.2m/s Lethal Rush.
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@SuzuKR said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3186119#Comment_3186119
3 people is meant to be a disadvantage. It also isn’t unwinnable, especially depending on number of gens left.
Given the current greater ease than ever of hard tunneling out survivors, it seems too good of a buff for scummy killers, despite the benefits it would provide the general population of killers.
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@SuzuKR said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3185773#Comment_3185773
Yeah there’s the current loophole of running in a corner. Was considering adding a minimum distance requirement.
Even with close-by gens, survivors can still chip at them. Lack of ability to do so only comes down to either lack of solo queue info or gens spawning way too close (eg Lery bug where a gen spawns like 10m from another).
Non-bugged 3 gens are absolutely manageable even against mobile killers. You have a survivor on each of the 3 gens. If the killer commits to chasing a survivor off a gen, the fourth can get on that gen to have all 3 gens progressing simultaneously. Even without that, just 1-2 others on the others still means continuous progress. If the killer drops chase, then that means they got nothing after other survivors got progress chunked on the gens.
The final paragraph is assuming a survivor wasn't killed early. If survivors are cut down to 3 players the game plays out far differently, as you cannot properly progress the game on the survivor side. When normally if S1 is on hook, S2 went for the unhook but got caught and ran away taking an injury, S3 goes for the backup unhook, and S4 can progress gens. With 3 people (or fewer) that removes the 4th survivor gen progress entirely and snowballs the game to a quick (and unearned imo) win for the killer. This would reward tunneling even further.
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@NuKeD said:
people think killer got buffed or else, but it's even worse than ever.
just do a single freaking match in high MMR and you realize how gens are so fast, maps are so big and m1 killers are so slow. just do 1 chase and you'll see how much fast gens get popped by the other 3 people.
and don't start with the SOLOQ thing, i know this is a SWF sided game, i feel the soloq pain too, but once you meet a SWF, this game is busted. you become a plaything for survivors.
i'm honestly tired to play a match and having to rely on tunneling or camping to get 1-2 kills per match because of this ridiculous gen speed and this huge map size
no wonder everyone plays NURSE and BLIGHT.
i'll say it again, BVHR is doing everything to pamper survivors (profits-wise) and doing everything to make the killer main players to definitely abandon this bs game.
DBD used to be fun once, now it's all about sweating, tryharding and getting stressed to get just one kill. how disappointing.
First, "top/high mmr" is the top half of the player base, so it is an entire gamble what type of game you will get.
Secondly, if a killer inflates their kill counts by using camping and tunneling, they actively do not learn the skills needed to play against better players, causing a negative feedback loop. If I only win against people because I camp and tunnel, I can't beat the better people when I fight them since they have learned how to deal with my tactics, but I haven't figured out their's.
Third, soloq is so horrendous that many people have hard quit UNLESS they are playing with friends, which inflates the ratio of SWF vs solo. If soloq is much more playable then you will play against more solo players, which means less swfs.
Finally, when a player goes against another player that played in a non-enjoyable manner, they typically bring their ABCs next match. ABCs being A-game, bully tactics, or acting like a, uhh, non-enjoyable person themselves. That works out as Starstuck Nurses, BNPs, Alch Ring/C33 Blights, Syringes/Styptics on medkits, 4 minute bleedouts, and teabagging. That then is usually done against players who aren't doing the same, which leads to a bit of a vicious cycle. If all of the extremes of power were closer in effectiveness to one another, then those bad feeling matches would be less painful.
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@ProfSinful said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3184114#Comment_3184114
What is incorrect about increasing pressure to prevent yourself from losing? In what world is that unreasonable? The goal for the killer is to, and hold onto something because this may be a lot, kill the survivors. Obviously as a game, the goal is to have fun, which is why I discourage early tunneling/camping (again, early being within the first 2 gens). However, to expect the killer to play the way that you think they should all game is firstly entitled as hell, and secondly it just completely ignores the fact that killers cannot be expected to play in a way that fits the "survivor handbook for killers" all game. Pressure is something that needs to be created in order to win a game of killer (huge shocker there), and that means if you need to remove someone from the game in order to do so, you need to remove someone from the game in order to do so. If you don't have a kill or a good number of hook states by the time there are 2-3 gens remaining, you are not in a good place at all and the only thing you can do at this point of the game is begin to apply pressure through slugging and tunneling (I can't ever endorse camping outside of the endgame because it literally loses you the game) and frankly you can't get mad at them for trying to turn a losing game for them around, nor should they be punished for trying to do so (as if the 80 seconds of endurance and 10 seconds of 10% haste + DS aren't enough for a decent survivor to discourage the killer from tunneling).
I bet you wouldn't even bat an eye at 3 survivors each splitting on separate generators while the third runs the killer whilst holding W to pre-drop every pallet (I.e playing at max efficiency), yet this is exactly what happens at the absolute highest level of survivor gameplay and that has not changed. Where is the proposed punishment for gameplay like this? How do you propose the killer pressure 4 survivors at once if they're only capable of being in one place at one time? What if the generator is incredibly safe and just ties into a strong window or pallet that hasn't been pre-dropped yet? Well, you know there's this thing that the killer can do to match survivor's pressuring gens that you insist is problematic.
Increasing pressure to prevent a loss should usually come from skilled play, not cheesing mechanics. I agree, what world is a cheesed mechanic being "needed" or feeling "needed" reasonable? They should kill the survivors through squeezing hope and providing despair, not by exploiting bad design. I never expect a killer to play any way in particular, other than Nurses to 4 minute bleedout me on the floor. However, there should be greater rewards for playing in a more fun and fair manner, and greater punishments for the opposite for both sides. You appear to not be able to see the forest for the trees in this instance. The mechanics should be refined such that there is always hope for both sides to pull off a win. I also believe both sides can win simultaneously in asymmetrical games, with degrees of success for each side.
I do bat an eye at 3 survivors splitting on gens being the most efficient least enjoyable gameplay, and in part 1 of the series I sought to reverse that. This also comes with Good skill checks on co-op gens providing Loud Noises. When survivors are encouraged to group on gens then if the killer decides to disrupt that they are brought greater rewards by getting 2 or 3 survivors displaced at the cost of going to 1 gen. I did qualify in the original post that the changes should be thought of with each section in mind, and individual sections may appear more killer or survivor sided. Ultimately I believe the total changes are roughly fair for both sides. You should also check out part 5, where killers are granted a lesser basekit Grim Embrace for spreading the pain, that can also apply twice.
I had not thought of one player spamming pallets and to counter that abuse case such as on The Game, an off the cuff thought to counter that would have a cumulative 10s (number WIP) delay on dropping pallets. A survivor that drops a pallet has a 10s cooldown to drop another pallet, and upon dropping the next one it stacks to 20s, 30s, 40s etc. I think having the chase end and not be continued within the current pallet timer doubled (that is if you are at 20s, you need to not be chased for the full 20s and 20s after that timer is up) would be a good reset condition, as well as being injured or downed. This could also be adjusted to only affect the lowest hooked survivor, or not apply/apply a shorter timer if you are the most hooked survivor.
Overall I believe you mistake my intentions and think I am a "Survivor Main", due to not reading all the sections in their entirety. This is a survivor favored section because it is a killer abuse case being addressed, just as part 1 is a survivor abuse case being addressed. Just because we have a current "solution" that feels bad for both sides does not mean we should never seek improvement. That being said another possibility could be a different rubberband mechanic for when a killer has less hook actions than gens fully completed or the expected number, but that should only apply when targeting different survivors.