mizark3
mizark3
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@ByeByeQ said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3152752#Comment_3152752
Sounding like and being are 2 different things.
How about this scenario: The killer hooked a survivor and went out on a gen patrol. He found 2 gens with no progress and a 3rd gen with progress and kicked it but couldn't find Spine Chill Claudette. At that moment he decides to return to the hook (or even spots the rescuer running) to see if he can acquire a target (the rescuer) or disrupt a last second save and force Stage 2 on the hooked survivor.
Does that still sound like camping to you?
No, but in that case the Reassurance survivor had to spend 15-20 extra seconds to reach the hook, and now they have to spend that same time leaving it. Also they are in chase now, presumably giving a free hit due to having to deadzone themselves to Reassurance the hooked survivor. With a duration of 30s that leaves another survivor being forced to already be heading there to prevent the stage 2. That also excluded the 4 remaining generators, and required the killer having zero map awareness (other than to return to hook) or intel perks. So in a fringe case example like that as opposed to a more common example of the killer staying within LOS of hook as much as possible, I'd say PTB Reassurance is fine. The cost is ultimately low enough to justify.
Edit: Also the example you listed can still happen with the version scheduled for Live servers, unless you are saying the killer checked 3 gens in the span of 5 seconds, gave up, and committed to the camp.
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@Tsela said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3154499#Comment_3154499
Reassurance was never "nerfed" it's not in the live game, it's a work in progress that may change. People probably should stop considering PTB as a main game
If I propose a new perk, then increase or decrease the numbers, it is buffed or nerfed from the previous proposal, despite never existing in the first place.
That was an extreme example, but in this case Wiretap was untouched from PTB, AA nerfed from PTB, Reassurance nerfed from PTB, Low Profile buffed from PTB, etc. By using the reference point of the PTB, a change can be a direct buff, nerf, or in the case of Better than New it could be pivoted into a different or similar direction.
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@Blackboar22 said:
It could be used to hold the game hostage and now it can still be used to completely counter facecamping, any of u survivor mains out there, get to high mmr killer and try facecamping at 5gens, it doesnt really work that well. (last part was for people saying facecamping is to op). the perk is still strong against facecamping.
Instead of fixing abuse case scenarios, they nerfed it against abuse and realistic use cases. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater so to speak. If someone wants out of Reassurance, give them an option. Don't just nerf it for everyone else. This is using a sledgehammer instead of a scalpel to fix problems.
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@Sava18 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3152711#Comment_3152711
Macmillan and autohaven are the most balanced realms in the game, so its always nice getting sent there. And the sheer lack of collision for blight does technically make him harder to play but it's more like he can't play half the map. And blight doesn't get free hits for hitting RMB, he does have to play around the game unlike nurse lol. And survivors tend to hide more which is boring.
I'll try to explain why I hate those maps, some are when I am (solo) survivor, some for killer. Also when I complain "always" it isn't actually always, it is just the confirmation bias stings harsher for them.
Coal Tower, usually fine. Groaning Storehouse as surv I always get 3 genned by my team, and as killer I usually am playing an M1 killer and the main building window loop is the most boring guaranteed entity block mindless loop. Ironworks as surv usually gives me the worst deadzones on the far sides, and as killer just feels like a slog getting across the map. Shelter Woods as surv has the famed 7 pallets, and as killer feels far too large. Suffocation pit as surv is the same as Storehouse, my team 3 gens us, and as killer I get the most awful mid loops with what feels like 12 chained LT walls where you just cannot mindgame since they can run to the next loop no threat. So with 5 maps only 1 is usually tolerable.
Autohaven Realm has the worst loops for Huntress imo, the hitboxes are all 2ft above the visual, or at least it feels that way. Azarov's has the same problems as Suffo Pit, but cranked to 11. I personally get the worst luck with Blood Lodge, seemingly always fighting Blight or Plague or Nurse as surv, and I seem to always get this map if I am playing Myers or Ghostface and someone picks the realm. Gas Heaven is a nightmare for similar reasons for survivor on Blood Lodge, and as killer people seem to start running on the furthest terror radius only on this map. Wreckers' Yard is generally fine as both. Wretched Shop is largely similar to my complaints for Ironworks. Again, 1/5 maps are playable. (Playable is an exaggeration, but you get the idea.)
Yamaoka Estate feels like a fairer, better version for 2 of the above maps. Family Residence feels like a refined Ironworks/Wretched Shop, and Sanctum of Wrath is the refined Suffocation Pit/Azarov's. They still have the problems of their parent maps, but they feel less pronounced.
Swamp just feels like a great equalizer, where all killers largely perform as close to each other as possible. I love it when the imbalanced nature of the killers is somewhat flattened, so you can expect a good time regardless which side you are on. (Edit: except when you wanted an easy stomp and picked a free win killer)
Also in regards to Blight, I played him extensively and found so few scenarios where people could dodge me for long enough to prevent me from winning. When I say RMB is free hits, I am just saying how unlike most of the roster, his power usage is comparatively getting free hits. Nearly every normal killer has to actually earn their hits, whereas Blight and Nurse are gifted them on a silver and platinum inlaid with diamond platter respectively.
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@Deadeye said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3152752#Comment_3152752
No not really always the killers fault of camping. Survivors play greedy and offensive enough to show themselves to the killer while rushing for the unhook. You can't always blame that on the killer, survivors are OFTEN mindless enough to rush it like that. And as killer, if you hit one survivor near the hook, it is most likely that another will think "he got injured, I need to safe now because he is in chase". And that pulls survivors off gens right into the killer. This is one of the most obvious reasons when camping is a legit strat and gets rewarded. Because of bad survivor play and they dont let the killer get away from the hook. It is actually the survivors forcing the camp in these situations
I both agree and disagree with your points, and I will try to explain.
I agree that a survivor rushing the hook while in chase is a misplay on the survivor's part, however I disagree with Reassurance being a problem in that case. The killer is getting essentially free health states from the foolish survivor bombing a hook, and best case scenario a hook trade re-procing a Scourge Hook.
I agree that someone seeing an injury will think they might need to go for the rescue, but I disagree that is "forcing" a camp. As killer I can continue to chase the survivor who just gave me a free health state, and worst case scenario they have a source of endurance making it 2 hits to down. If I decide to stay on hook instead of committing to the chase then I chose to camp, no one forced me. If Reassurance punishes the killer for camping in that scenario then that is still a good thing.
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@ByeByeQ said:
Reassurance is still a good perk against non-camping killers.
If the killer is returning to the hook to disrupt the rescue, Reassurance helps defuse the situation somewhat. The rescuer reassures the hooked and takes chase and someone else can get the rescue before the one on the hook might not got Stage 2 or die before being rescued.
What if you're a little late getting the rescue? Reassurance can save a hook state there too.
I agree with the changes. Nothing should be able to work indefinitely in DbD.
Non-camping killers... yet the killer is disrupting the rescue? That sounds like he was camping to me if he was in range to disrupt the rescue.
Rescuer takes chase but still got within 6m of the hooked survivor? If they had to go in the direction of the hooked survivor, the killer had to be camping to force that scenario.
Little late getting the rescue... at 6m to activate? That is 1.5s of survivor running at 4m/s, and 3s of unhooking. That buys you 4.5s so that turns 59s rescues into 63.5s rescues.
Each example of a "non-camping killer" was actually a killer camping, and late to the rescue gives you a whopping four and a half seconds. I'm sorry, but your complaints have to be pretending in falsehoods in order to prevent nerfing camping.
Edit: To be fair, I will allow a survivor being near hook when their ally is being hooked changing the hook to a 90s hook being an abuse case scenario, which could also be fixed by needing at least 10s on hook before it can be used.
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@OniWantsUrLocation said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3152268#Comment_3152268
People don't understand that Reassurance could have easily been abused. Not only against camping killers, but also against survivors on the hook to keep them there. The devs recognized the danger and did the right thing. And like you said: This perk is much better now in terms of design.
But as the OP stated, the abuse case wasn't specifically addressed, allowing survivors to voluntarily end the condition early. This was a blanket change rather than a surgical change. The perk was much better in the original form as it was a hard counter to negative behavior, and only needed 2 people to permanently counter it. I would say there should be a basekit fix, but as far as band-aids go Reassurance was as good as they come.
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Swamp is one of my favorite realms, it has some of the most variety in terms of elevation. I will say both main buildings are a bit on the strong side, but that just means if survivors pop the gen then when playing killer you never have to go there, cutting the map size considerably.
It doesn't make artist worthless, as you just need to plan around the elevations, and she is more than powerful enough to make up for that anyways. It makes skilled Blights actually display their map knowledge rather than being able to brainlessly RMB over and over to get free hits. There is a good balance of high grass, and low grass for hiding survivors or traps as trapper/hag. I will say it is bad for Nemesis zombies, but that is an exacerbated flaw that can happen on any map, cranked to 11 in the swamp. Another potential flaw is hatch/totem placement, as I think this is the furthest to the map edge they can spawn. However I enjoy the variety as most totem/hatch placements are a bit boring on other maps. It also is the home to the PogLog, which is an above average strength tile at the cost of almost exclusively being found in corners. That makes it effectively a deadzone for the survivor, making it a risky proposition to use them. It has a good combination of open areas and LOS blockers for ranged killers and survivors, while also having many lower height tiles in the middle.
Whichever side I play, I rarely dislike seeing a swamp offering. I hate seeing MacMillan and Autohaven offerings more than anything, as its users are typically sweatlords who prefer "winning" at all costs over an enjoyable match for both sides. I even prefer RPD to those realms as long as I'm not Billy or Huntress.
Edit: Fixed spelling and clarity
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The only buff I would say Bite the Bullet could use is to work regardless of which participant is doing the healing. It is kinda strange that when you heal someone else they are quiet, but then when they are healing, your survivor screams their guts out. It doesn't even need that, I just think it would make it a good QoL change.
Also with Off the Record being meta atm, there is an abundance of aura shrouding. It kinda is disheartening as killer to run a full aura build, and getting almost punished if you are too effective. With 80s Aura block you can often run into 2 overlapping OTRs on healthy people without even trying. It makes it almost better to run slowdowns instead of intel perks, so we have enough aura blocking features at the moment.
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@HugTheHag said:
What the dog doing ?
A very good job, yesh he is!
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I ask any killer who thinks Prove Thyself is OP, did you run Discordance, and if no why not? If PT is this vast impossible threat to overcome, why not run what essentially is its hard counter? To anyone saying because the map is too big that sounds more like a problem of maps than PT, and I would agree with that assessment.
Overall the complaint of PT to me falls flat, and it is the opposite of the problem. When survivors group up and are interrupted they lose far more gen seconds than when solo-ed gens get interrupted. The problem is when you don't know where survivors are, or know where survivors are and cannot interrupt them. When I play killer the worst feeling is 3 different gens popping within 10s of each other.
Edit: Also to address Hyperfocus I agree with the no toolbox change. Toolboxes have 5x skillcheck rate, so any problems with too many skill checks are moreso a problem with the combo.
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@ThatOneDemoPlayer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3149712#Comment_3149712
you didn't answer my question what evidence do you need a killer is OP.
If a Killer is able to win against higher skilled opponents that are running the best Perks/Items/Add-Ons possible. That's what makes a Killer OP.
2.5/3.5s fatigue/2.7s cooldown + 3s pickup = 22/26/22.8m a Survivor starting literally right beside the Killer can run away before the pickup even finishes. As in, out of the 20m.
Not my math, it's @SuzuKR
I would argue that bar for "OP" is too high to cross using your definition, so I can see there is no point is discussing killer balance with you given you have that logic in mind. What you call OP I would have called a broken unplayable game. I would define OP as overpowered, as in having access to an excess of tools (or the relative strength of those tools) without sufficient drawbacks to counterbalance, in relation to the median or mean effectiveness of the roster.
As far as the math post that is disingenuous for actual gameplay scenarios. If someone is adjacent to the Nurse when she picks up with Starstuck then she will immediately drop, Blink, and get a snowball 2nd (or more) down. If they were adjacent to the Nurse when she downed the 1st survivor she can still chase and catch up to them to snowball the 2nd down regardless. The greater strength of Awakened Awareness as compared to Infectious Fright is Aura Reads are typically unknown to the survivor until it is too late. Also if a Nurse happens to walk by a gen being progressed on the way to hook and sees their aura Starstruck or no she can snowball the circumstance far too easily. It sounds like the solution is if a Nurse is in the match you are required to hold W in the opposite direction of her until you no longer hear the terror radius and keep running further. That logic fails to hold up to make the game remotely fair or fun.
I can use disingenuous math as well. Nurse is OP because she is an average of a 4.8 m/s killer. After a 2 second fatigue from blink, she needs to wait 1s to regain the lost blink charge. After regaining the blink charge she charges the blink for 2s, then blinks over the course of 1.5s traversing her max blink range. Rinse and repeat for the average travel speed. To account for human error I would round down to the nearest tens place decimal point. (.96*2[fatigue 2s]+3.85[walk 1s]+2.89*2[charge walk speed 2s]+13.33*1.5 [blink speed over 1.5s])/6.5[to average the speed]) =4.85 cut to 4.8. This fails to account for losing max blink distance due to map geometry, but also fails to account for gaining distance going through walls as opposed to around. Even though that would be a net gain for the Nurse, I'll say it breaks even for sake of argument.
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@ThatOneDemoPlayer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3149680#Comment_3149680
So your problem is with the SBMM, not Nurse.
Why does everyone complain about Nurse when the true issue is SBMM?
I feel like you are dodging a lot of issues here. First you didn't address my first counterpoint at all, secondly you didn't answer my question what evidence do you need a killer is OP.
Also a few problem killers are a lot easier to fix than MM. I can come up with solutions to fix MMR also, but the pressing issue is Nurse limiting perk design for every other killer, which is the discussion at hand.
Edit: Also I would ask why you believe Awakened Awareness wasn't good on a Nurse, using Starstruck or not? The max Blink Range is 20m basekit, which was the exact same range of the aura read.
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@ThatOneDemoPlayer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3149642#Comment_3149642
- I don't play Nurse
- Watch any competent Nurse player play agaisnt equally skilled opponents that also want to win. She gets an average of 2 Sacrifices
To address point one, I recommend you take a day and only play her, she is super easy to get consistent results with after the initial learning curve of Blink Charge duration to distance ratio and movement speed during blinks. If you need to I would even use the training wheels add-on Plaid Flannel, as you no longer need to learn that aspect and can simply use the mechanics.
To address point two, I ask do you think the game has actually accurate matchmaking? I understand you can use the example of tournaments for equally skilled opponents, but most matches the players are not really close to being equally skilled. Also if I have 1 survivor doing a gamethrowing tome (hide 90s near the killer), 1 survivor going for Head-On Flashbang/Flashlight plays, 1 survivor playing the game normally and the last survivor doing a normal tome like escape as X, I simply win that match as killer.
I ask you what evidence do you believe is needed to prove a killer is overpowered? I wouldn't agree with kill rates as the only factor personally. I think playing the killer to understand their weaknesses (or lack thereof) is the best evidence, but I can't force you to play the game in that manner.
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@Junylar said:
As an average soloQ enjoyer, I know very well that the endgame is basically 1v1v1v1v1, or as many "1"s as there are players left. So of course when I'm left with just one teammate and 2+ gens left, I don't hope to finish all of them, so I wait for the other guy to die so that I at least have a chance of escaping. However successful that happens to be, I always hear the same catch phrase from at least one of my teammates in the end-game chat: "oooooohhhh that Claudette was just hiding all game". Right, that Claudette finished 2 gens solo, went for 2 unhooks with following full healing, but decided to skip the last pointless and hopeless unhook in order to actually get one escape instead of giving ez 4k the killer, and here I am, "hiding the whole game".
I understand that those guys must feel envious and salty, especially when I actually escape successfully, but who is here to blame after all. Even harder for me to understand when the killer actually joins this clownery, and when the other survivor actually leads the killer to me and the killer kills me while letting the rat go. Sometimes after those totally not bannable "working with the killer" episodes they feel obliged to justify their actions the same overused way: "you were hiding all game".
Do these people actually believe what they are saying? Do they really think that 2 people unhooked themselves and 2 gens repaired on their own? They never say just "you were hiding", they always add "the whole game", like from the first second. It feels like hearing "you were camping and tunneling the whole team" while playing killer, when nothing like this actually happened. Is it some kind of new way of trolling / chat toxicity, or these people are really so deluded?
The issue for me as both Solo-Q Surv and Killer is that the Claudette who did 2 gens and got 2 safe unhooks did them in the worst way possible. They did 2 gens in the corner of the map and contributed to the killer's 3 gen at the end of the match.
I had 2 or more matches last night alone where the team 3 genned us out of refusal to strategically do gens. Swamp 3 gen vs Legion and when I popped the final gen because Blast Mine eventually beats Overcharge and I greeded the gen pop, when the killer immediately downed me, I saw 2 people hiding in 2 different corners not even trying for the gens waiting out everyone else to push the gens. In another match I went against Ghostface and a Zarina popped shack gen on Thompson House while I was hooked, David was chased as the Obsession, and we got 3 genned and lost as a result.
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@ThatOneDemoPlayer said:
A discussion is needed
I would say it is essentially self evident, and not needed. However for the sake of anyone unaware, they just nerfed PTB Awakened Awareness (to lose the lingering 2s aura aspect) for no reason other than Starstruck Nurse. Instead of fixing nurse to make her Blink attacks Special attacks as opposed to Basic, they nerfed a perk for everyone else instead. This is a consistent problem for the now 28 other killers and they refuse to fix the one excessive problem killer.
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@Sava18 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3146986#Comment_3146986
Uh yeah macro is the accumulation of all killer game sense. And taking the best possible path to a hit is most definitely harder than 50/50 a huntress hatchet lol. I think otz's bump logic is terrible if you have ever seen him play, I doubt yours is better though.
You have the strangest way of conceding a point. You say X is the hardest thing, so I refute Y is harder. You essentially say well yeah Y is harder, also ranged attacks are always 50% accuracy, skill at aiming and mindgaming doesn't matter, and big streamer bad at X and you are bad at X. You said nothing to refute my claims, and also made irrelevant claims to a third party's individual skill level against the point of X not requiring nearly as much skill as purported.
My claim is that people say someone needs the realm of 8/10 skill level to get effective results as Blight/Nurse/Spirit. I say the truth is it is closer to the 3-5 range, and if you are at 7 or greater then there is no challenge in averaging 3+ kills (averaging, not every single match, if you get a 4k in 9 matches and 0k in the tenth you average 3.6). I would also claim most people start in the 1-5 range for their first match as any individual killer, and most people would improve (if they are trying to) at 1 to .1 points per match until they reach their personal softcap. Once someone reaches their softcap then any further improvement is rare if ever, and typically only comes from knowledge of specific interactions, such as when to Doctor Shock on RPD library if they are going for the far vault near the totem spawn on the third floor.
I will say Otz might be below par on Blight/Nurse/Spirit compared to his skill on other killers, but that is because he has said he purposely plays them less than the rest of the roster. If I recall correctly the reasoning is because of higher level players being sick and tired of those 3 over and over again and it is his desire to not ruin their experience. It may also be for the understandable reason of not wanting DCs/early quits when he is a content creator and relies on gameplay/commentary for his earnings. DCs/quits are obviously not profitable with 5-10 minute queues. With either of those reasons it would be understandable for him to be rusty with them in comparison to his skill with everyone else. That being said in the first VOD I found of him playing Blight he still got a 4k (technically 3k but he let the fourth go so it was an effective 4k).
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@Sava18 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3145672#Comment_3145672
Bump logic is the hardest thing in this game. Nothing can compare to the difficulty of gauging the rng surrounding and playing to get a hit off of it in the moment. He may not have the highest skill floor but he most definitely is the hardest killer to master in this game.
Hard doubt, for instance basic macro killer mechanics are far harder to master. That is when to chase, when to kick (pallets or gens), when to drop a chase, etc.. Those all require far more processing power than basic pinball geometry. I will concede the point on swamp maps. They have the most inconsistent hitboxes and half the swamp is covered in butter. So learning which bushes and twigs on swamp you can bounce off of actually is skill (but almost knowledge moreso).
Also like I said in other posts, it takes far more mastery of the killer to pull off last second 3rd charge Bubba hits, Huntress snipes (especially through gaps), and nearly half the killer roster of powers. To be fair, maybe Blight bump logic comes naturally to me so I fail to see any skill involved in comparison to other mechanics, be they killer unique or universal to the game.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3146191#Comment_3146191
People have been mentioning that they think solo queue got worse, but nine times out of ten - at least that I've seen, I'm not trawling the forums 24/7 - they don't actually back up why they think that. It's mentioned in passing as though it's an objective truth, and a bunch of people agree, and not much else is said on the topic.
To be clear, I'm not playing devil's advocate to the idea that solo queue isn't substantially worse off. I wholeheartedly and sincerely agree with that statement.
I already knew some of the knee-jerk reactions from when the patch first hit, but I wanted to see if that had changed and new arguments had formed. I didn't expect to have my mind changed, but I wanted to understand the thought process behind the opposing argument a little better - there might've been something I missed, and just because there wasn't doesn't make my question purposefully obtuse.
Ok specifics, hard tunnelling has been buffed due to endurance not being stackable, and Perk based incentives (BBQ) and disincentives (DS) being nerfed. In an older tunneling example BT would be procced and then you could still DS. Now you have to use OTR but that is mutually exclusive with BT. Camping has been buffed because 50 extra gen seconds need to be completed, so the survivors lose that much more precious time as Solo-Q members have to each individually find out about camping before committing to spreading on gens instead.
As far as anecdotal evidence I have 3 friends that I used to regularly play the game with. One of them pretty much hard quit, and the other two only seem to want to check it back out after Wesker comes out, but not before. The one who hard quit almost consistently (25-50% of matches) got facecamped or hard tunneled off hook every match we played together. Some of the matches someone else ran the killer quite well and then he got caught, the killer clearly being frustrated with being ran by my other friend or myself. Other matches he got chased and caught first and still had the same problem.
The basekit worst case scenarios were buffed in the patch that was proclaiming to address them. (Camping and Tunnelling) I will say that playing killer just feels better, but that doesn't stop bad apples from spoiling matches for others. Whether that is quitting early or hard tunneling or camping.
Edit: Also when you are one side and get a negative experience from the other side, your patience is notably dropped for BS. I understand having no desire to play against 5 Blight/Nurse matches in a row, and with 5-15s survivor queue times survivors have no incentive to sit through a match they have no reason to. They can die on first hook and just queue again with effectively no penalty.
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@TheSubstitute said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3146255#Comment_3146255
Okay, your issue is with the basekit BT being too weak. That I completely agree with. I think basekit BT should be 10 seconds long with the BT perk stacking haste and time on it and, to prevent abuse from both sides, collision detection on the unhooked survivor should be disabled for 10 seconds. That way, the unhooked survivor can't force a body block for the unhooker and the Killer can't bodyblock the unhooked survivor to prevent them from reaching a tile. Basekit BT could definitely use a buff like that in my opinion.
I would go as far as having BT endurance not giving deep wound when activated. The killer knows what they are doing, and if the survivor has a different source of endurance they can use that only in this anti-tunnel aspect. But I would agree it needs to drop collision for the duration if it could be used to bodyblock extra hits.
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@TheSubstitute said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3146198#Comment_3146198
OTR works in the first case. For the second, unless I'm being tunneled, why am I waiting 59 seconds before touching a gen? I'd rather not go down for longer than 60 seconds which OTR helps with and on both hook states.
Lag circumventing game mechanics is not something I'd use nor is it reliable enough to bet on.
Perhaps I was unclear, OTR doesn't work in any of those cases (beyond the aura read and Iron Will) as the basekit BT procs the endurance and sets you in deep wound. In each scenario OTR endurance is denied by the killer hitting the survivor immediately off of hook, not OTR being active on the person attempting rescues. Each circumstance I laid out is not impossible nor too improbable. Even if the killer counts to 5 before hitting an unhooked survivor, they then know due to deep wound no more endurance surprises are possible, and is nearly no different than current or old BT in terms of anti-tunnel potential against those killers committing to the hard tunnel, or simply farming an extra STBFL stack.
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@Mewishis said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3146186#Comment_3146186
In what world should a survivor be able to reach more than 30 second against a killer, this is a 4v1 not a 1v1 survivors should not be able to 1v1 the killer. That's just dumb game design if that was the case in whatever world you speak of, but the fact is dbd is a team game you don't win by yourself you win as a team.
I seriously don't understand why people complain so much about not being able to do 2-5 gen chases on every killer like you can do to Onyro or on the weaker side killers like wraith. 30 second is a lot of time and its more than enough to be able to complete a generator before a hook if prove thyself is in play as the killer still has to go over to your gen.
If anything the killer needs to have shorter chases than that to keep up pressure unless the team is bad, because 30 second chases are definitely cutting it timewise. Heck if you were being ran for 30 seconds it might be better to go chase someone else who is on a generator as worst case scenario 3 generators are now nearly halfway.
30s across 2 health states in the blight example? Also in general utilizing map resources can extend a survivor's lifespan, but cannot make it permanent. (Except infinites which sadly still exist for those M1 killers) Also artificially shortening chases too far runs the risk of the game becoming nothing but hide-and-seek with no chasing at all. This has partially started to happen, but thankfully it hasn't become too common yet.
Also I think the issue is people dislike the extreme difference of power in facing a Nurse vs Sadoko or Blight vs Wraith. Flattening the killer power levels would go a long way to help balance the experience and ensure basekit changes can improve the experience in more cases.
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@TheSubstitute said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3146114#Comment_3146114
Yes, you can tell from the way I have nearly every single survivor achievement including Left For Dead I've obviously never played solo queue.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/FUI6A5QICS6C/screenshot-20220822-123813-adblock-browser.jpg
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/VB6MTVFSPKPC/screenshot-20220822-123826-adblock-browser.jpg
Those last 3 survivor achievements I should have in the next couple of weeks. Perhaps you should look at your own gameplay and try to adapt rather than attempting to insinuate people are being disingenuous.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3146090#Comment_3146090
OTR hit into DS is better now simply because of the 7% haste boost and more common since I can guarantee I have OTR rather than gambling on BT. Also, DS did nothing to keep me silent and I can also run both OTR and DS if I'd like. I have but the 60 second duration of DS usually runs out before I get dropped and picked up with OTR so I don't usually find it useful.
I don't have an issue with DS being reverted back and buffed to work on both hook states but OTR works much better than old DS.
The only way that the Killer can hit straight off hook now anyway is if they're facecamping. As soon as the RE2 chapter comes out Reassurance will come into play and that will reduce the effectiveness of that strategy.
It doesn't only work on camping, it can also work when goes for the hook trade but the killer doesn't go for the unhooking survivor. It also works against attempted 59s rescues. It also works when people take a hit while injured and complete the unhook action through lag. Each of those circumstances are far from that uncommon.
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@SuzuKR said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3146180#Comment_3146180
You can counterplay both bump logic and hug tech via mindgaming.
I was referring to their post claiming Survivors essentially being on a 30s timer vs a good Blight and that timer is assuming Survivors did make attempts at counterplay and that is how they reached 30s.
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@BrokenSouI said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3146132#Comment_3146132
It really doesn't. It just made me laugh. As most comments like that usually do. "Oh you use this killer !? I don't respect you !!!" I really don't think you're going to find anyone who actually cares. If they're good with blight. They're just going to down you in about 30 seconds repeatedly.
Yes exactly the problem, no counterplay is allowed, you are given a maximum 30s timer. With that people think an S-tier killer needs more bugs and exploits to potentially shorten it? That is insane.
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@SuzuKR said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3146132#Comment_3146132
Have you tried leaving the surface? Hug tech is simple to counter in return for the upsides being using less rushes/looking flashy.
The issue is it isn't truly countered, since they can still bounce off of a background object and aren't forced into swinging to pull it off.
Also with short loops such as cars, looking down doesn't block enough LOS and you can still track the survivor with ease. (Edit: fixed spelling)
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@BrokenSouI said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3145994#Comment_3145994
Oh man ? I'll never get your respect because I enjoy characters on this game ? Damn. I feel like I'm forgetting something....I think it's to actually care about your opinion or respect.
To be more accurate the lack of skill and dedication required compared to the results received. Also you found it necessary to comment on this proving deep down somewhere in your ego you couldn't let it go, and it matters to you to some degree. For most people the need to be recognized when pulling off something difficult is a core need. I am recognizing a lack of skill for Blight bug abuses, and the need for a crutch such as exploiting on an S-tier killer is more sad than impressive.
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@TheSubstitute said:
My solo survivor experience got better. At first, the only thing that made it worse were the rage quitters but they have either stopped or are low enough in MMR I seldom have them as teammates anymore.
Tunnelers now pretty much throw the game when they tunnel me or anyone else who can run tiles and has OTR instead of Just being minor speed bumps. I'm also seeing less tunneling and camping as both are less effective than they were in the previous patch.
Part of this could be since I only used DH pre 6.1 when I was pipping up in Iri grades as it made escaping exponentially easier so the 6.1 changes hit me less than those that used it. I did use DS all the time but new OTR is far more effective than old DS.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3145660#Comment_3145660
As soon as you said OTR has less value than old BT, I immediately discounted everything else you said. New OTR is objectively better than old BT.
You are lacking in reading comprehension then. To rephrase I specified against killers that hard hit off hook, OTR has less value than the old equivalent DS. The old circumstance would be BT hit into DS. The new version is 2 hits, whether it is 1s or 79s after the hook for the first hit. If the killer is going to hard commit to the tunnel and not even pretend to wait out the 5/15s, then OTR is providing no value since you can't get endurance multiple times.
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@RatbasterdJr said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3145882#Comment_3145882
Sure.. if you strictly stick to just using his power to cross map. But when you start trying to implement all the techs and flicks to try and consistently get hits, he is harder than nurse. A blight who doesn’t know how to blight, is prone to being bullied or having to go straight m1.
But using the power to traverse the map and get hits is all it takes to "Blight". Neither Blight nor Nurse have high enough skill floors as people tend to claim. The more I play Huntress I appreciate a good hit over a car/wall since I know some of them are just straight up bugged and have improper/false hitboxes. That Huntress tried and missed that shot and learned from previous matches, and still had to accurately aim and gauge the distance for lobbing.
"Techs and flicks" are abusing bugs to get more hits in circumstances they could normally get a hit, just maybe 5s delayed the proper way. I google-d Blight Flick and the first result was a timestamped video that showed how truly simple it is to abuse this bug. This isn't some truly skilled play, this is abusing free access to extra rushes essentially. RMB W Mouse aim down isn't a grand expression of skill no matter who claims it to me.
If the Bubba pre-revs his chainsaw and hits me with the last quarter second of the third charge, he gets my respect. If the Doctor strategically puts people in T3 Madness with a Blast to prevent a pickup he gets my respect. If a Pig actually lands a charge attack at a loop she gets my respect. If a Demo Shreds off a hill and bodyblocks the only pallet during the recovery he gets my respect. A blight or nurse playing the game never get my respect, because I know how simple it is to actually play them, and most losses is them simply being bad at the game.
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@RatbasterdJr said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3145672#Comment_3145672
Tell me you haven’t played blight, without telling me you haven’t played blight. 😂 Man talking nothing but BS.
I'm sorry you have this false notion of gaming difficulties, but Blight is hardly difficult to play. Maybe for some it can take up to 3 matches to understand his mechanics, (at the most) but then he is pathetically over-rewarding for the mental processing power put in. When I play Ghostface I have to gauge everyone's locations and their stalk and determine if I can afford approaching at an awkward angle or not. When I play Blight I RMB towards the nearest gen and LMB once at the survivor and get a hit. Now to be fair that is an oversimplification, but the concept is that mechanically he is not nearly as demanding as ranged killers or heck even Bubba avoiding colliding with bad hitboxes. Blight is my "turn off brain" killer where I don't have to try to get results. I don't use him more often because I enjoy a hard fought victory and a challenge. As a result I am a "C-tier/D-tier" killer main. (Edit: fixed 2nd sentence phrasing)
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@SuzuKR said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3145766#Comment_3145766
Why are you bringing up non-gameplay reasons in this context? They are literally irrelevant to the topic.
You qualified the statement which wasn't a full picture view. I tried to bring the full picture into the conversation and you are now being adversarial about it. It most certainly is relevant to the topic since gameplay reasons are not the only reasons to quit (or have a quit forced upon you in) a game.
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@SuzuKR said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3145796#Comment_3145796
??? Like what lmao.
The only valid excuses to DC are cheaters, game breaking bugs, and IRL reasons (eg need to do something/emergency/etc)
A fire, injuries, pets acting up, unexpected knock at the door. That is why I said human reasons. Which doesn't make sense why you are confused then list the exact reasons that were implied.
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@SuzuKR said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3145766#Comment_3145766
There is no valid gameplay reason to DC other than cheaters or gamebreaking bugs (like being permanently stuck in a hill).
Gameplay sure, human reasons, plenty.
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@soloqdweet said:
facecamping has never been a viable strategy, and only works against people that don't do gens. against any decent team its a 1k and free win for the survivors.
I would suggest Bubba with Bamboozle, No Way Out, Deadlock, and a 3 way tie between Lethal Pursuer/Corrupt Intervention/Merciless Storm as the final perk. There is practically no counter play, and consistently gets 4ks or 3k+hatch. I doubt even Reassurance will be able to counter this since if you are within 6m of the hooked survivor, you likely aren't safe from Bubba's saw. Thereby making 2 people on hooks instead of 1, and he can still hard tunnel the person off hook with his chainsaw through BT/OTR.
Now that example is taken to the extreme, but the core problem still exists, and needs to be mechanically addressed in some basekit fashion.
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This would be treating the symptom rather than the cause. Don't put a band-aid over an infected wound, sterilize it first. Why are people quitting early? Is it the 12th Blight/Nurse in a row? Introduce a killer ban system or no repeat killer system. Is it due to lag? Add an option for maximum latency in matchmaking. Did the killer immediately camp or tunnel off the instasave? Make it mechanically punished instead of rewarded.
A short term fix might be removing DC penalties if anyone else DCs first, or if the first survivor to be killed is killed before a single gen pops. However this may have unintended side effects, so I can understand it not being implemented.
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@Sadako_Best_Girl said:
I really don't get the complaints with hug tech blights. It adds an extra level of complexity to playing both as and against him.
I never to rarely like bug abuse, or things not working as intended in versus/competitive games. I stopped playing Super Smash Brothers Melee when my friends saw pros use Wavedashing and started copying them.
It also adds another tool in the belt of the 2nd best killer in the game, it isn't like some trapper or clown bug to make them roughly as deadly as mid-tier killers. Also everyone claiming it is some arcane magick that only the most skilled of wizards can pull off 90 % of the time is just another sweaty tryhard that abuses every exploit for a "win". Blight is one of the easier killers to play effective consistently, as you don't have to balance map pressure or your situational awareness to nearly the degree that other killers need to. Even then, if you use the same brain power the other killers need then nearly every match is pretty much an easy 4k.
In short easiest best killer doesn't need or deserve more access to game winning tools.
I also always hear people parrot the same line "bump logic scarier", but it only comes from those same bug abusers. I hear "no don't nerf my overpowered killer, I am not even using my full power by glitching!" If it works properly then Blight can be viewed and balanced appropriately, without worrying about unintended mechanics.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3145602#Comment_3145602
So, first, when you say that every perk that helped you live through tunnelling got gutted, you mean... Decisive Strike? That's the only anti-tunnel perk that existed, period, and it did get nerfed. Dead Hard is not an anti-tunnel perk and is still pretty good if you know how to use it, so that one doesn't count, and even those two are the only ones you mentioned- what about Off The Record? That'll give you a ton of opportunity to outplay a tunnelling killer. On top of that, you literally cannot be downed immediately off hook anymore, so you always have agency when you're tunnelled.
The MMR part I can't speak to, I've not personally noticed it but that doesn't mean it isn't a thing for other players. Fair enough, maybe you're getting mismatched enough that it's more frustrating, I could see that.
Against a truly vile hard tunneling off hook killer they ignored old BT and swung through it. Now they do the same, and due to the poor design decision (kneejerk reaction dare I say) to make endurance no longer work during deep wound, OTR has even less value against those killers. Old DS at least forced a 60s slug or to eat the DS (with a resonable stun duration pre-nerf) on pickup. The only endurance source that shouldn't work during deep wound imo is DH.
Now you say even with a free endurance hit you as the tunneled survivor have some agency, I ask how? If you are hit off hook you are still one hit from being downed again, and if you got downed in the first place it was most likely due to a lack of resources. (eg. pallet or window in the area.) So I am hooked in an effective deadzone, and can use even less time to run to a safe area. My agency is comp-cornering, that is it. That isn't enjoyable. What if however I don't have OTR equipped, say I am new player or tome attempts for example. The secondary tunnel is based on how difficult it is for a killer to count to 5. I gotta say it isn't difficult for most people, and even then you can grab people on pallet vaults/medium vaults, restricting your options even further.
Since a killer knows that the off-hook survivor has a max of 2 health states as opposed to a healthy unhooking survivor, having a max of 3, the math checks out for tunnelling, but that doesn't make it fun for the victim. The problem is a lack of mechanically punishing undesired behavior, and mechanically rewarding desired behavior. At least old BBQ enhanced the desire to hook each survivor for the BP bonus. That helped decrease the amount of tunneling until everyone has been hooked once at least.
With so many killers taking advantage of the current bad design, you have to rely on the honor system for a fun match, and people have limited time. Limited time + 15s survivor queues + bad/unfun match = the "go next" mentality plaguing the game right now. Now I would also argue that limited time for killers in some cases exacerbates the issue. They will now be in a bad mood as they didn't get a real match (unless they are a sadist only enjoying the game when their opponents don't or can't), and will hard tunnel off hook to end the 3v1 match all the sooner, then maintain that mindset into the next match waiting another 10 minute queue. (Edit: fixed spelling)
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I am utterly baffled by the defense of exploits for a top tier killer. This isn't like trapper getting more traps or free add-ons, this is a killer that when I get a bad map offering when playing as him I think "it might be close to a fair match now". I see no distinction between legitimate cheaters and these players when they puff their chest and brag about their "win". I actually think higher of the cheaters when they admit their use of cheating programs, at least they have the self-respect to admit they are using "all the tools at their disposal", no matter how uncouth.
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When I played solo-queue before the Self-Care nerf, I would use Self-Care. Now however, it is almost always better to use CoH. It gives 4 survivors a better version of Self-Care, and there is no guarantee of a use limit since you can re-boon at little to no cost to yourself as survivor. As non-mobility killers however, you rarely have time to snuff a boon on a completed gen, and the remaining 3 survivors are free to work on gens if you only hit 1 survivor. By the time you injure the 2nd or even 3rd survivor the 1st is running back to the gens, and the 4th is still free to work on gens un-interrupted.
I think CoH should be a team perk, based on teamwork. Often times you will see 2 or even 3 survivors self-healing side by side in a CoH, rather than healing each other. I would drop the Self-Care % from 50 to the same as the solo perk value, 35. Also instead of a 50% to all heal speeds it should grant 100% altruistic heal speed. Now there might need to be some form of information for the allied survivors to know someone needs healing there. I would say you can see allied survivor's auras within the boon if they are not moving, or maybe only Self-Caring. This way you know if they need help, but not free info if they are in chase so you know you can focus the gens.
Another alternative would have shattered hope un-boon totems when you hook the boon owner.
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@kingcarl2012 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3136203#Comment_3136203
Yeah it gets rid of the 15% penalty for each survivor on the same generator
Technically it doesn't, it applies a multiplicative 15% bonus on top of the additive 15% penalty. Math wise that basically means it slightly is penalized at a lesser curve.
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I would argue lethality is a form of game pressure, when I have 2 people injured and chasing the third while the 4th is hooked I have plenty of pressure. The issue is reaching that point. Most problems for M1 killers stem from map design imo.
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As a clown enjoyer myself, I think yellow bottles are slept on. That being said I don't think 8 basekit bottles is fun or fair from the survivor's perspective. I've been working on balance ideas, and for Clown I would add 1 or 2 more bottles, and reduce Redhead's Pinkie Finger accordingly.
Another mad idea I've had is having yellow bottles give a 20% bonus to either A: all actions, or B: Fire Up perk actions. I would think Fire Up actions would be a better list, and restricts the Clown from accidentally buffing survivors in strange situations, instead only buffing their vault speed if the clown misplays.
Also his add-ons are a bit hit or miss. You have insanely powerful or fun to use add-ons, like the Redhead's Pinkie Finger in the powerful camp (Exposed on direct purple hit), and the Cigar Box (aura read for 16m when yellow bottle buffed, Surv or Killer) in both camps. However then you have a 30s blind on purple bottle, 20% size and spread speed as 2 add-ons, 1 for each bottle type individually, and 2 different bottle throw cooldown add-ons? If Clown got an retouching I would give him the +2 bottle add-on as basekit, and fix each of those weaker add-ons as well as replacing extra bottle add-ons. (Alternatively +1 basekit, and keep the +1 add-on, while only replacing the +2.)
I think one possible replacement is how some killers get a teachable perk in a lessened fashion as an add-on. In a sense Coulrophobia is covered with the Mangled add-on, but that doesn't stack with existing Mangled perks. Perhaps to cover Pop Goes the Weasel have the purple spread add-on to instead allow Purple bottles to damage a gen 10% current progress on direct hit on the gen and start regression (maybe even counting as a kick, or limited to one activation per reload), but only if it isn't currently regressing. The yellow spread add-on could now instantly create yellow gas, instead of waiting for the delay. I would also extend the Blindness to 60s. I would also combine the throw cooldown add-ons for the brown version, and make the yellow version instead give Oblivious for 60s. The Solvent Jug adds 1s for yellow bottle duration, and when they previously announced a buff for it they made it as good as the purple (edit: rarity) version at 2s. They clearly forgot it even existed, and the buff never reached live after that was mentioned. I would buff the yellow (edit: rarity) version to 2s, and make the purple (edit: rarity) one increase the action speed boosts instead, perhaps by double.
Overall though, I think the greatest buff is going to be the meme of a Clown with "Superior Anatomy". Making a SWF call that out on coms is chef's kiss. "Look out guys! He has SUPERIOR ANATOMY!"
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@Reshy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3108144#Comment_3108144
Funny, it happened to me quite a lot.
That speaks more to your playstyle than the perk being broken.
As I stated as a killer I have to fail 5 separate steps in order for that to happen, so you risked 5 different levels and still had it happen sounds like failure to account for risk.
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@Reshy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3105929#Comment_3105929
Old Decisive Strike when the gates were open wasn't free?
- Survivor needs to dedicate a perk slot.
- That perk wasn't used earlier in the match.
- The killer needs to not go after the person they hit/failed to grab attempting the rescue.
- The killer needs to instead risk BT, for the hard tunnel potentially giving the survivor a speed boost instead.
- The hook needs to be close enough to the exit gates, relative to the killer's lethality.
So yes it very much wasn't free, it often could be planned and earned more so than many concepts such as 3 gens with solo queue existing and survivors being unable to prevent other survivors from 3 genning the team. It also required multiple mistakes on the killer's part in order to happen. Very rarely could I, as a killer, claim it was the survivor's fault I got DS-ed.
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@Arkmenhah said:
What BHVR doesn't realise is that there is no such thing as "even pressure" It doesn't make any sense to make the big Thana debuff to stack at the fourth injury, especially when healing is so quick and easy. This is the same reason why Grim Embrace is #########. Strong effect, but requires even pressure, which is arguably one of the worst ways possible to play killer. In the particular case of Embrace, it should get played at 3 hooked instead of all 4, but less duration. And on Thana, If you get 1, 2 or 3 injured only, you have basically no value, and the 4th scales absurdly. One survivor can keep getting healed all the time and out of sight and the perk gives mediocre value.
Mettle of Man always has been a meme. Yeah, it was completely bizarre to see your hit connecting, seeing the same results of normal endurance, but no deep wound. But eh, meme perk.
Pain Resonance yeah, it made no sense to NOT interrupt the generator as it explodes, and the synergy with DMS coming back is good, if survivors can have perk synergy killers should have too. Not much to add on the duration nerf, only Artist and Nightmare were able to consistently lock 2 or more gens with DMS on any map. Merciless Storm, idk you all, but by itself I only ever get value on the very first gen where survivors don't expect it. Very rarely I get to interrupt a 90% gen to force a failed skillcheck and lock it.
Even pressure Thana concept is why I suggest it scales getting more lethal with more pain, as opposed to the big prize of 4, it applies more and more each subsequent "stack".
Exactly, why nerf meme perks like Calm Spirit and Mettle of Man?
To be fair to Pain Res not interrupting gens, it has the same functionality as Jolt. Eruption technically doesn't either since you are incapacitated but that happens after the regression, so the gen is paused as opposed to starting to regress, as opposed to old Pain Res queuing the regression after the release but before DMS.
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One final thought, MoM is currently bugged due to the Deep Wound endurance change, and doesn't work with Dead Hard. If you Dead Hard and get Deep Wounded while MoM is active or becomes active from the Dead Hard, then MoM fails to activate.
Tinfoil hat time, I believe that this bug was too difficult to crack so they just decided to nerf MoM instead of fixing a bug.
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Also I despise the Calm Spirit Nerf as well, I would throw it in builds occasionally because it was fun to test Iron Maiden against Huntress (which I get a disproportionately large amount of) and know without revealing myself.
Now everytime I go "oh maybe I should put on Calm Spirit, wait -30% ewwwwwww, maybe not."
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I would run a MoM Breakout Sabo build.
I would build it up over the course of the match. When it was ready I could stand under the hook, take a hit and immediately start a Sabo after the first hit. Now this will disable MoM making it worthless for the way I most enjoyed it.
Also with the killer buffs they failed to speed up Sabotage speed correspondingly. Killer had a 3s delay after a hit and with Sabo taking 2.5s from the perk, you had a tiny window where you could get in and out safely. Sabotage needs to be dropped to 2.25s or even 2s for the perk's usage.
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How about Haste equal to highest chased Survivor Condemnation stacks? If you enter chase with 2 survivors, say Jake with 3 stacks, and Meg with 5, both on the same gen then you gain 5% Haste when entering chase with both. Then say you go after Jake and Meg loses chase, your Haste drops to 3%.
Now to prevent this from being too oppressive you do not gain this Haste bonus when in a chase with any fully Condemned survivor. You could still have NOED/PWYF/other speed boost, as well as your TV exit speed boost, just not the new Condemnation speed boost.
I feel this would give her a much needed chase boost. This also makes Survivors much more likely to interact with TVs to drop their stacks, giving innate slowdown for 1v4.
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@SuzuKR said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2903442#Comment_2903442
So they can die, or finish the gens and go through the gate. Problem solved.
Or we can interact with a tertiary system that was enjoyable to interact with before, and is a second thought after nerfed nearly out of existence now. I don't disagree with the original version being annoying or busted before, but with the current system I dread keys in my survivor bloodwebs more than anything else, even if I can get a blood amber addon to make it not worthless.
The slog of bloodwebs giving nothing desired or of value is hurt all the more by dead items wasting your precious BP and making you regret spending time on the game at all.