lemonsway
lemonsway
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@Sonzaishinai said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3336565#Comment_3336565
Well then glad it's not bothering you then, if you enjoy discussing that's fair.
I will have to say that long playtime doesn't really say anything. Experience is vallueless if it isn't used properly. A 4 year old player who refuses to learn and/or plays very casually can be worse then a 100 hour player who really tries to understand and research what to do
The simple fact is that Knight can NOT facecamp with 2 characters as many have pointed out the second character dissapears the second you touch a hook.
All you need to do is run straight at the hook and unhook the moment the hunt starts and you'll get a trade in the exact same way you would a trapless trapper. If the knight hits you before that the guard dissapears too.
It looks to me that you are experiencing the Dunning Kruger effect. You think you know it all but the truth is that you only think you know it all because you are oblivious to the many things you don't know. The fact that you keep stating something that is proven wrong by simply reading the killer power description says enough.
Why do you want me to run straight at a hook when both guard and knight are there? IT's a guaranteed trade wether the guard hits me or not the Knight is there and can 2 hit me even if i make the save so it's trade. WE'd need 2 people to get away with it without having a trade which like i said it's gonna be a major hurdle to do in SoloQ.
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@Xendritch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3336547#Comment_3336547
I mean DH is the most popular perk because a third health state is insanely powerful it doesn't really have anything to do with selfishness I don't think. BT used to be one of the most popular perks and that purely benefitted the person you were unhooking so I think it's more people will just use whatever is strongest.
To your other point I don't think that has anything to do with specifically DBD. Shooters have people on teams where thier success is directly tied to each other where they win and lose as a team. They're also far more toxic and you're likely to get flamed for not performing well. In that way I actually think DBD is less toxic because you can still succeed if your teammate does poorly.
But DH is a third health state for you, you want that protection for you, it doesn't work directly for the team. Whatever benefit they get from you using DH is indirect consequence, you didn't use DH to give them time you used DH to keep yourself alive.
And survivors should win and lose as a team aswell, the only reason people act toxic is because of ego and affordability of internet anonymity.
Why do CoD players, for example, are toxic manchildren? Because of SBMM that forces everyone to play the same lame sweaty style and they all want to be the very best and have massive egos when they're literally just children. They all pick whatever is strongest weapon, they all camp cause moving means death, they all take the safest options because they all care about SBMM.
SoloQ and MMR have the exact same cause and effect in DbD. Every Survivor is worried about MMR ( maybe killers are more, there's plenty of absolutly disgusting killer players) thus making SoloQ players hate each other. Then you obviously have the inter role flame wars, but that's because you're allowed internet anonymity and you're allowed a chat and you're allowed profile searching and you're allowed this and that.
If you know people will behave like animals why do you keep giving them the means to do so?
If facecamping is so frowned upon and goddamn rightfully so, why do we still give killers the ability to stand there, create a situation where the hooked person has very little hope or chance of escaping. Why do we give killers 1 shot abbilities under those conditions? Why do we give killers the ability to summon another character to make facecamping even stronger?
Why isn't that survivor respawned in another place so they get a chance to play the game instead of having to either give up or sit there and wait for their miraculous save or short lived game?
Why is the game in such a way where killers feel that is the only option?
My question is Why this and why that when clearly nobody is happy yet nothing is really done about it. Everytime me or someone else gets to make these questions we get to be shotdown when the reality is more people should be making these questions.
Why after 6 years we're still discussing gen speeds, facecamping, soloq vs swf, survivor vs killer etc, etc, have we done no progress whatsoever in 6 years?
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@Sonzaishinai said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3336543#Comment_3336543
Please don't rant about a game you don't or barely play...
The moment you touch a hooked survivor the guard goes away so it being there makes no difference. Knight facecamping with a guard is no different then a trapper facecampiing with no traps around.
Ranting about a game you barely play means you're ranting on ill or uninformed information and is extremely bad for your mental health.
Taking a break from the game is not just not playing it. It's putting it out of your mind entirely. What you are doing now is even worse then playing when frustrated
4 years of experience my friend, i've seen it all and i've done it all. That's precisely why it bothers me. That's precisely why i'll keep pointing this things out. When something is wrong it should be pointed out and corrected.
I'm not ill informed and it has absolutly no impact on my health whatsoever, i enjoy discussing stuff and i enjoy writting, i'm winning actually, i get to write and i get to exercize my brain, not that it is much exercize cause i can clearly see i'm talking to bots but nevertheless i'm willing to indulge.
And if you've come here to question my knowledge or my health then you're wasting your time.
The simple fact of the matter is Knight is allowed to Facecamp with 2 Characters. My question is Why? Where is getting a killer to use 2 characters to Facecamp a good option for the game when Facecamping is so frowned upon by the community at large and represents such an effortless and skilless way to play.
Don't tell me it's to help newer players because it if is then it's very very wrong, you're off the get go teaching them that they should do something nobody likes simply because they get to kill someone they are playing against.
Now that, that's a bit of a mental health concern if you ask me, teaching that behaviour to players...
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@HoodedWildKard said:
It's actually pretty easy to counterplay a knight doing that. Use 2 survs. One to trigger the guard and lure it (and probably the knight away) the other to unhook.
It's not broken and knight is mid tier at best.
Do i speak alien language or something? in a SWF yeah but now try coordinate that on SoloQ... People are selfish as is and since Knight can face camp with 2 characters and he can keep spamming the guard when it runs out good luck getting randoms to do that...
I can run and counter Knight in chase pretty fine, the issue is being hooked vs knight in SoloQ means 99.9% Death...
Besides why is a killer allowed to do something even more boring than facecamping with just 1 character, why is Knight allowed a second character to facecamp with!?
If i were the Knight why would i even move myself from Hook when i can let the Guard chase whoever, maybe i get it and i can still be pressuring the Hook. And if the Guard doesn't get a hit then i've wasted someones time in a failed attempt that someone else has to come for or they give me a free no effort no skill required kill.
This is a serious oversight OR IT'S ABSOLUTLY INTENDED BECAUSE IT'S BHVR...
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@Xendritch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3336533#Comment_3336533
This kinda seems like avoiding saying everyone acknowledges working together is the best way to escape without literally saying it. Like of course everyone is trying to escape that is literally the objective of the game. Do you want perks that encourage players to kill themselves to help everyone else? Because I don't think that would be a fun experience and I don't think anyone would run them.
For the People seems like a good example of a selfless perk. It heals a teammate instantly and leaves you broken. It actually can be game changing and a good perk but hardly anyone runs it because it gets you killed a lot and just because you helped your teammate that doesn't mean they're not instantly gonna go down again. Like altruism is not always the best play if done poorly.
As for the rest I mean sure but I don't know that mindset really matters? If I save you and you escape because it helps me or I do it because it makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside the result is the same. And at that point we're talking about altering the psychology of the players themselves rather than the actual game.
But the players are just as big of a problem as the game itself. The game should demand something more than just "screw others, all that matters is ME" but that's exactly what the game does and that's exactly the sort of players it attracts and then molds aswell.
Me saving you or you saving me becomes irrelevant because the game itself rewards us very very little for it, that's why it's meaningless and virtually nobody does it outside of SWF.
Why is DH so popular? It benefits you mostly rather than the team, the only benefit the team get is you spend more time in chase but that's a consequence of your selfish choice not an act of teamplay. And if you miss your DH then they'll just call you trash for not knowing how to use it...But chances are you're still gonna use DH alot because it will help YOU alot.
Maybe asking for teamplay on a Casual game is just too much or maybe it's just too much for DbD...
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@Akumakaji said:
This is either bait or some super uninformed rant of someone who didn't even bother to read the killers power entry in game or in the wiki. The Knights facecamping via his guards is super ineffective and just a distraction, because the guard will instantly de-summon when you touch the hooked survivor.
The Knight was super miserable to play before his buff, as everything he did was extremely telegraphed and survivors would just hold W away from any tile set that he plonked down a guard. Now he is at least somewhat fun for assaulting survivor's on gens, but his facecamping game is weak af.
That's when the Knight himself isn't there to hit you... But he can still be there facecamping so you're risking a two hits and another facecamp this time on you vs simply letting someone die... What a good game design... what a thrilling gameplay loop.
Again in a SWF i can see you getting away from this easily but in SoloQ? You'll need two people, one to risk taking a hit and one to make the rescue. And at the most optimal scenario for killer, you get a hit via guard and you double tap the rescuer anyway.
@ironblade said:
you unhook and his guard goes away what's the problem here?
IF the Knight himself isn't there to 2 hit you sure...
@Snowflake_Syndrome said:
I've seen a few of your recent discussions bro. You seem a bit tilted and I'd recommend a short break from the game.
But i haven't been playing much for the past 3 months, i'm simply bothered by what i get to see happen in this game from the little i play and from what i see when others play... Why did we get a killer with even bigger facecamping ability than Bubba!? Why did we get a killer that is even more boring to play against!?
Did we spent the entire good developement ideas on Wesker? And all that was left for Knight was well let's give him a 2 man facecamp...
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
I run Sole Survivor, Wake up, Adrenaline and DH when Im soloQ. Plan is to get out and no care if the others do. Why? I'm solo. I can hold my own against most killers, so I dont feel the need to babysit the others. Ill rescue and such when I can, but Noed and you're on the hook while Im at the gate? Good luck!
Yeah and that's the issue.
I'm not saying it's your fault. I'm saying the game works exactly like that for the most part. Why care about others when nothing you do for others actually matters? You don't get viewed as a better player, your MMR only tracks escapes and sacrifices so if i want to be "High MMR" and have some twisted and completly ilogical sense that i'm sort of gaming god i gotta prioritize upping my MMR by EScaping and let whoever behind to die...
BUT THEN
You end up being queued with people that will only care for themselves aswell. Until the game makes serious changes to it's core gameplay choices to allow for survivors to be sselfless and help each other and be rewarded for it and for killers to have a chance at playing without cheap and riddiculously boring tactics we willl never leave the state we're in.
Your game can be fun, require some skill and still be appealing to CASUAL audiences...Especially when you have the likes of Myers, Ghostface, Freddy, Nemesis, Wesker, etc...it's so easy to make this a good game for everyone.
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@JPLongstreet said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/363493/its-still-a-1v1v1v1v1
To your last point about the veteran players, I'll say this:
If the devs have repeatedly shown us anything it is that they focus primarily on the casual middling players and newbies before all else.
Now I'm not the biggest fan of using Steam charts at all, but recently the game has shot back up to near the top in fresh sales again. So that means many newbies just joining, and right before the event as well. Add to that on Xbox this game has been on GamePass for an eternity and we cannot know console numbers, but free is free.
So with all those new players popping in during what is usually a slower timeframe otherwise, what do you think the devs will focus on?
That's all they do ever. But the point is that the game is meant to be this chaotic and "awful for solos" on purpose. That would be fine if playing killer was piss easy and you wouldn't have to deal with the same 4 perks and same cheap tactics every match. I don't mind the game being Casual at all,but the game just isn't well developed, neither side has Fun for 90% of the time they play. We're constantly arguging about the same stuff all over again. Replace Nurse with Knight, Ruin with Eruption and we're all eating the same overcooked rice all over again everytime.
@Xendritch said:
You're acting like everyone is running low profile and left behind and not kindred and prove thyself. Of course the game is a 4v1 even most solos with a few dozen hours know that.
You use the example of windows like windows is a selfish perk when just because only you can see the auras doesn't mean that's the case. 1. If only one person had to bring it for everyone to have it that would be insanely broken and 2. It's a useful team perk because one person being able to run the killer for a long time benefits everyone.
People run those perks for a single reason, for matches to be as quick as they can be to maximize survivability, doesn't mean working for the other 3 to escape... their own escape is still the priority, that's the wrong mentality and that's why this game is 1v1v1v1v1. Just cause we're both working on the same gen doesn't mean i'm doing it because i want to help you (i actually do because im actually a team player, i don't mind dying if it means i rescued from death but for the scoring system and for MMR me leaving you to die means as much as me dying so whoever dies is irrelevant only you and me can share the apreciation if one of us saves the other, the game doesn't account for that, when it already has a score parameter for those actions...), i'm doing it because it helps me have a better chance at survival.
It does end up benefitting everyone if i run the killer for a long time but im still doing it for myself cause i want to survive, if you don't have windows and you die then that's on you, i have a very easy choice to make either do the rescue or let you die.
If the Maps were fixed with no RNG involved we'd all have the same layout of the Map to remember and we could all know where the loops are, that would eliminate the need for Windows of Oportunity to exist.
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@Mat_Sella said:
Well,
A good survivor thats intending on working WITH the team and not for themselves is going to plow gens once they see someone is chased.
Your Megs and Claudette's will still leave you for dead
And that's clearly a Player issue not a game issue so clearly giving all players free stuff is not the right move to make survivors play as a team. IT's 1v1v1v1v1... Survivors are as much detrimental to each other as the killer is to survivors. Except Knight, screw Knight and his Flawless Facecamping...Pretty good job BHVR...
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In the hands of newer player the icons are not OP but a nice welcomed indication of who's doing what but for experienced players this means SoloQ is much more viable which completly changes things.
The better players are now able to make better decisions without trade offs. Meanwhil killers can only respond with more of the same boring gameplay.
To a certain extend bridging SoloQ and SWF is good but the rest of the equation is you're still giving EVERY SINGLE SURVIVOR MORE FREE INFORMATION so ultimatly SWf's get more info aswell.
THe difference here is the skill of the survivors involved. Worse survivors might still not make the best decision while the better players can make better decisions.
While at low MMR nothing changes much, mid and "HIGH" (LOL) MMR things change quite a bit because better players have access to information that they hadn't before so those players will make matches harder for killers and the only possible response killers have is tunnel harder, camp more, more OverCall of Eruption....
I'd trade 2020, 2021 and 2022 years of developement, meaning i'd trade MMR, i'd trade all the killers and survivors released for a new game mode that avoids the primary problems the game has, which are SoloQ vs SWF and Survivor vs Killer.
Make a new game mode based on Hide & Seek, REMOVE GENS AND prioritize Hooks over kills to diminish Tunneling and Camping. Without Gens killers get enough time to play. Give the mode a 10 or 15 minute time limit where it's 4 survivors trying to get as manny escapes as possible vs Killer trying to get as manny Hooks as they can. This way you avoid problems like killers getting 8 hooks and the game telling them aha you suck as if they were playing against MK's Shao Kahn...
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I don't think adding more useless matchmaking parameters will make things better...Imagine that you now can avoid every Nurse and Blight and PinHead player, those guys will never get matches within reasonable time. Not only that you're negating all the effort those players put in playing those killers for however long they have. It's simply unfair and unjustifiable.
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@DudelPuma said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3331284#Comment_3331284
Most are bad with Nurse, Spirit, Billy, Freddy and many other killers, however they were nerfed into the abyss, you can tell this cheap excuse to someone else, according to your logic, they should never be nerfed
"yOu cAnNoT pEnAlIzE pPl fOr pLaYiNg wItH fRiEnDs" but nerfing killers although most players weren't good with them and just want to have fun with this killer, they still got hardcore nerfed because a few could handle it
stop that double standard bs!
I'm not good with Nurse and i fully support her nerfs, i'd honestly go even further because she's single handedly handicaping every other killer. One thing is BIAS and another is bad design, both exist in the game and we need to be ale to distinguish it. Yes the game is survivor sided and to an extent it needs to be because survivors without perks and items have nothing so Map Design is the only thing that helps them the issue is most Maps are just really goddamn bad but Nurse's ability to ignore pretty much everything is beyond OP, as good as you can be as survivor an equally good Nurse will not give you any meaningful counterplay.
People think Nurse is a high skill ceiling killer and i respectfully disagree, i'll argue Pyramid Head is a much harder killer to play well than Nurse is. After you get used to playing her she's mostly muscle memory for charging blinks while to be good at Pyramid Head you need to have excelent knowledge about lines of sight and distances, playing PH without range add-ons and with range add-ons is a world of difference and that's exactly why Range add-ons are his best add-ons. You also need to know how to run Loops so that you can put down Trails of Torment and force players to either get Tormented or leave a loop. So as a PH player you need to fully understand the strength of each loop and you need to be aware of the Maps to see where each loop leads to. Tormenting a loop where you can easily get an M1 might just give the survivors time to shift W away into a stronger loop so you as a PH player need to know what hand you are dealt and you need to make the right move.
So using half of PH's killer kit is alot harder than using Nurse in General. A good Nurse will still be more effective than a good PH because Nurse can do everything faster, she'll find you faster, chase you faster and get the hit faster than PH can without having half of the worries a PH player has. Does Nurse still take Distance into account? Yes but Nurse can course correct herself with a second Blink while if a PH misses his M2 he's got a long cooldown and slower catch up than Nurse has.
Against 99% of Survivors Nurse can fail the first Blink and be fine but PH will get screwed in most of those scenarios...
So yeah screw Nurse, she gets away with ######### that punishes every other killer.
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@Krazzik said:
So would it be 1v1?
No, it would be a 4v1 still but without the need to worry about gens just chases, Hooks and rescues. The incentive for killers is to get as manny Hooks as possible within a time frame, meaning you get punished for camping cause you get less Hooks, and Tunneling won't be as effective since survivors can freely take hits for each other cause they don't have any other objective besides do their best to keep everyone alive.
Kills won't matter as much directly as Hooks would, this to prevent Killers in this game mode from getting only 4 hooks and 4 kills. With tunneling being so unreasonably hard to do since there can be 3 bodyblockers if survivors choose to do it killers should just get a chase get a hook and chase someone else immediatly, theres less time pressure cause there's no gens.
You can afford longer chases, you can break more pallets, more walls and still get to do what you're meant. Even if you're lacking in kills by the end the time spent doing something and the hooks you got are alot more meaningful.
This way you give every player a more Casual aproach because the majority of the playerbase is indeed Casual and both sides don't have to deal with Gens. No more infinite kicking regression and no ore gen rushing to counter infinite gen kicking regression.
You can say: But then survivors will have a massive advantage they can all bodyblock for 1 guy + all the second chance and chase perks they have. Yeah and then killers will have all 4 perk slots for things like Make Your Choice, Devour Hope, Haunted Grounds, BBQ, Floods of Rage, Enduring, Blood Favor, etc.
I'm fully aware a SWF would abuse most killer roster and most killer players the exact same way some killers will abuse most survivors. But the game mode retrieves so much pressure from both sides that it would just be chaotic fun for the most part.
Killers finally get more time to play and survivors can't complain much about their teammates not being on gens 24/7. Survivors who know how to hide well will also be an advantage instead of someone who isn't doing gens.
I honestly believe the game mode would allow for more pressure free, chaotic fun with more playstyles and it would make killer players very happy to be able to do what they have to do without needing to use a playstyle that doesn't benefit anyone.
I'm sure we'd find some maps alot more tolerable without gens than they are with gens present.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3329730#Comment_3329730
"I wish people making this kind of posts would share their survivor gameplay."
I wish they would share their Killer-gameplay because I am very sure that it would show immediatly that not the Icons are the problem. But once again, DBD-players are unable to say "Hm... Maybe I did not play THAT well during that match...", but go for some scapegoat. In this case - Icons which show that the other Survivors are doing nothing...
Sorry to interrupt but even if you and i play the same killer on the same map against the same survivors, the simple RNG of the map and Spawns can make it so one of us has better results than the other and that has nothing to do with our ability to play the game.
You're right, every killer makes mistakes and plays we might not consider skillfull but the matches are completly different based on Map RNG.
For us to be able to say that "you're just playing bad" is valid it would have to be on the exact same conditions. Then you still have to account for game performance issues, so assuming those are non existing the game should work the exact same way for all players. Only then when everything is working perfectly and matches are exactly the same would you be able to say yeah you're just playing bad.
Map Design goes a really long way in making either side more susceptible to a certain results. You'll learn alot about Map Design by playing Call of Duty for example. CoD Maps are full of 100% one sided lines of sight, if you're not on the right side of the map you'll lose the gunfight, doesn't matter if you shot first, your chances of winning that gunfight are not the same as the other persons.
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MMR being a matchmaking parameter is riddiculous when the Devs have admitted that their system doesnt track skill whatsoever because there's too manny factors that determine skill. Factors that are already tracked by the Emblem and BP scoring system mind you...*SMH*
BUT IT'S STILL USED FOR WHATEVER MATCHMAKING SYSTEM THERE IS...
Matchmaking should do 2 things, first of all assure a good connection, and secondly do the best it can to match reasonably equally skilled people together.
BUT THE MATTER OF THE FACT WITH DBD IS : QUEUE TIMES FIRST everything else after. And since MMR does not track skill whatsoever it only makes matchmaking even worse because there's now a new higher priority parameter that completly creates chaos. Bad connections, completly broken skill levels. Brand new players facing veterans or just simply plain sweaty try hards that do nothing besides playing DbD for 10+ hours a day.
And matchmaking incentives to play either role don't help either because they create an influx of people with very varied MMR's and connections that end up adding to the chaos. the Bonus %BP only serves the purpose of making QUEUES FASTER. IT doesn't make better matches in connection or skill.
There's 2 Parameters actively working against any sort of coherent matchmaking. MMR has been the single worst mistake ever made but the time and money and effort spent on it "has to pay off". It never will tho but it will also never go away...
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Waht u mean they've wrote Dead by Garlic wrong?
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I don't deny SoloQ needs help i just disagree with the method. The difference is how a newer player uses that info vs how someone who knows the game uses that info. Basicly how impactful the change can be, how it impacts newer players and how it impacts high skill, high experience players.
It will be somewhat helpful for newer players but it won't make them better, they still gotta learn the game by trial and error or else they'll still be in the same skill level. So the icon advantage for them is minimal which means manny survivors and manny killers will feel like nothing has changed because we're talking about players who have a smaller insight into the game.
For more experienced players it does 2 things, either the icons are irrelevant cause you already have a good understanding of the game and you can for the most part dismiss the free information provided or you're elevating your gameplay and skill and you're making even better choices. Which in turn means harder matches for killers. And how do you expect killers to react until there's some changes? They'll tunnel, more, they'll kick more gens, they'll camp more.
So in summary there's a big chance the new HUD info won't feel like it makes that big of an impact because we're talking mostly about a Casual playerbase, on both sides, but there will be cases where players will be very powerful because they have alot of free information that they've never had.
I feel and think these changes are made to help survivors individually and not collectively, does it help collectively yeah it does but i genuinly don't think that was the purpose. I always have to assume survivors are doing Gens because that's what they have to do, so wether or not there's an icon that tells me that is irrelevant since the whole objective. If DbD was a slower paced game then sure knowing that at this time someone is doing a gen would be fine but DbD is a very simple and fast game where the only Objective survivors have is doing Gens to open Gates and Escape.
So i genuinly believe this was made so that each player individually could know more because the most common problem among SoloQ is people accusing each other of being useless while most people have a smaller understanding of the game. Plus by design the game does allow some players to not participate and still feel like they won...
If you're a stealthy player that's ok, but one thing is being a stealthy players who understand how to move around and another is being a Claudette in a bush who does nothing for anyone.
Something this changes does is give the players that don't do anything at all a way to justify that they're not doing anything. If i see 3 gen icons then theres 3 people working on gens right? So i can assume i don't need to be working on a gen and i can go do something else, like i said DbD is a fast paced game, 3 people working on gens will make the game go by really fast. In 90 seconds you can be doing 3 different gens and finish them all at the same time so it shows that i'm not very needed to be on gens so i'm free to go do whatever, including doing absolutly nothing, and i'm still able to win. Wether i do something or not becomes irrelevant because the game is already going by at a very fast pace.
Even if the killer is getting multiple hooks in a small time frame that means you're all going down fast and nobody is working on gens so if im not working on a gen either and im not being hooked then im still at a good stage, i can decide to let you all die and gamble for a hatch escape, it will certainly be better odds than me attempting to do the gens alone.
This is the real issue that should be adressed, survivors are also playing against each other fighting for their own survival instead of working together to guarantee escapes.
This is soemthing i've already talked about extensively. The game should not be 1v1v1v1v1 it should be 4v1, the hud icons don't make the game 4v1 since any single survivor is still able to ignore the majority of gameplay and still escape, abandoning their supposed teammates and minimizing or completly remove interaction with the killer from the match.
I honestly believe DbD would benefit immensily from a pure Hide & Seek mode, no gens, just a 10 or 15 minute time limiter in which killers must kill everyone and Survivors simply must stay alive, the more Survivors are alive the more points everyone gets and the more Hooks a killer gets the more points he gets, this would make survivors care for each other more cause they'll be wanting to bodyblock more, they'll be wanting to do more sabos and more flashy/pallet saves, they'll want to do rescues instead of letting someone die. And killers won't be rewarded as much from tunneling since theres 3 guys who can come take hits for someone, they get no benefits from Camping cause Hook Stages won't count as Hooks interactions themselves. Thus we're giving killers who get manny Hooks a feeling that they're worthy players and that they can in fact win matches vs the killers who just get 1 hook, camp someone to death and move on to the next hook and camp or tunnel whoever managed to get unhooked.
AND above all we get rid of this Gen Regression/Gen Rush META on this mode.
Why we have no other game mode is beyond me BUT THEN RESOURCES WERE SPENT SO SOME WEIRDOS CAN SIMP OVER HUNTRESS AND SPIRIT on a romance game...
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@HugTechLover said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3327392#Comment_3327392
How does that show they “Fail to understand and fix their game.” 😂
Literally nothing you brought up is unbalanced or broken.
Part of a killers job is to hunt survivors, well you're not doing any hunting if youre directly shown where they start a match off. That's incredibly powerful. Lethal Pursuer exists because without that information the time a killer can take looking for their first chase can be enough to completly make the game a landslide in favor of survivors. IF the game was fixed you wouldn't have the fear of someone looking too long for someone and completly losing a match based on a bad first chase.
You can tell me, that there's still player error (or lack of skill and understanding of the game) involved and you're correct but the reality is Map Design and Spawn points for players and objectives are very one sided.
Hope does have a big requirement, which is finishing all 5 gens to power the gate, but the reward is far more significant. The increased movement speed combined with the smaller hitboxes provides a very unfair advantage in chases. The only way the killer has to catch up is to spend time in chase to get Bloodlust to counteract the effect of Hope. Plus Bloodlust already existed to account for these same issues even before Hope can be in play. So Hope existing is just breaking things even more to make a catch up mechanic, in this case Bloodlust, a requirement.
Lucky Break is self explanatory, you get to disappear after getting Hit. You're rewarded with a FREE ESCAPE for the Killer catching you and Hitting you. Killer will hit you and then lose you making all the time he wasted chasing you a waste because he won't confirm the down cause the survivor is given FREE ESCAPE Option.
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@Rogue11 said:
I'm shocked they didn't give her a rip off copy of one of the new RE skins too
They'll probably give her an RE4 Remake Ashley Cosplay outfit.
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@StarLost said:
Last maybe 5 killer games has at least 1, more often 2-3 people with Boil Over, sometimes with BO and No Mither - which, thanks to the wiggle changes is right back to 'it is literally impossible to hook me from these areas of the map and now I'm taking the match hostage unless you slug camp me'.
Sigh.
100k BP will fix it.
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From Killer i really hate Lethal Pursuer users. It's the equivalent of SoloQ HUD buff. Free extremely powerful info. And the Passive Buff to aura reading applies to itself, #########! Why Fix Maps and Spawns if you can just give killers Aura Reading at the start of the match right!?
From Survivors i have to say i hate Items more than their Perks but if i were to name a Perk i'd name Hope because movement speed and hitbox differances benefit survivors so much and Lucky Break because you can Ninja vanish as reward for killer doing his Job.
THese things showcase perfectly how BHVR fails to understand and correct their game.
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@Gamall said:
63% kill rate and still demand for buffs
I won't argue the number but i'll argue the method. If those numbers represent mostly tunneling and camping then that's really unhealthy for the game. IF we were on 63% without resorting to tunneling and camping then maybe i'd agree with it being a bit high.
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@ASurvkillivorer said:
Some people are high. SWF isn't going anywhere so there are actually people crying about this new thing?
How many solo games that the survivors should've won end up going the killers way purely out of the lack of possible sharing of info. Then the match ends at the stats say hmmmm killer was really strong here survivors need more help. Leads to inflated kill rates that don't show that the survivors actually held the advantages.
This change will help the stats be much more meaningful and ACTUALLY balance the game.
How do you Balance the game if BAD SURVIVORS GET FREE INFO and can avoid all the bad scenarios? The Fun of playing Survivor is the Tension and Unpredictability. THAT'S WHY THE GAME LAUNCHED WITHOUT SWF.
Late game comebacks are absolutly fine, for both sides. Just because you did the gens doesn't mean you've already won. The faster you get them done the better but you then get cocky and screw up that's entirely on you.
SWF was added because Survivor players asked for it... The game wouldn't have a SoloQ Problem if we didn't had SWF. You'd have Balanced the game probably 5 years ago...
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@Aven_Fallen said:
"extremely powerful in the hands of decent players"
Hot take - if you are a "decent player" you would not need those Icons in the first place, you would know when to do what and be efficient.
However, those Icons will not help the bad players to be more efficient. IMO the only things that should pop up are:
- Gen Symbol
- Chase Indicator
- Healing Icon (if needed)
If anything else pops up or even worse nothing is shown, this means that the Survivor is not efficient. And there are far too many of those that it would actually matter to see what they are doing.
Yeah that's issue here. Decent players get even more to work with, they're now vasic SWF level. All the bad players still get a boost tho because now they know everything that is happenning without having to have experience and knowledge just look at the screen.
I'll still argue that BHVR should push for a higher skill requirement instead of a free info handout to appease SoloQ cries. The problem of SoloQ is a low skill level from players because survivor is a lower skill role.
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@ThirdHealthEstate said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3327272#Comment_3327272
Yeah well, Nurse is not the best Killer in the game. She is hard to use, even if you master the Killer it comes to a cost to your sanity.
I wish they made other Killers strong. But the point of the Killer is to entertain, to be a clown, free labour for BHVR so that they keep the Survivor player base happy and buying skins. If anyone thinks otherwise it's pure delusion.
Surviving means nothing in this game, escaping is the default.
She is the best killer, she has always been the Top Tier since she released.
That's entirely the problem. Survivors are the Dangling Carrot for the fool killers to chase endlessly. It would be fine if the game was a pure hide & seek tho since survivors wouldn't have a way out before killer can do something.
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@Ghoste said:
Icons won't make my teammates do gens or keep them from giving up on 1st hook, but it's a start. Killers have been stomping solos after patch 6.1. It's about time BHVR threw us a bone.
You're absolutly right but you're only thinking of the lower skill level. Now imagine you get decent teammates. Think about how much more powerful you are and they are.
Just like i said in the post "...powerful in the hands of decent players." Giving Free info is BHVR throwing things for the skillless survivors to shut up and it's a massive boost to every survivor player that already understands what they should be doing.
Any good Solo survivor is now equiped with SWF level info. Again now think what 4 good Solo survivors can do. They're basicly a SWF already.
The strength of SWF is the reliability it offers because it relieves tension tension created from not knowing. Now you have the Knowledge, the tension is gone as a Solo Survivor.
Killers have been on higher end since 6.1 because Tunneling and Camping increased ALOT! Kicking gens to stall match is super easy. It shouldn't be possible.
BHVR's answer? Give Survivors Free EASY info...WE're correcting a Huge Mistake with an even bigger mistake.
When DbD launched the game had no SWF option. It was added later because Survivors wanted it, now survivors wanted SWF level info for everyone, next like i said it's going to be 24/7 auras, just wait a few months and you'll see.
And there will be less killer players and those that still play killer will tunnell and Camp even more, as if somehow it's even possible at this point.
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@ThirdHealthEstate said:
Now what the Survivor role is trying to do here is more like implant this idea:
- . "nah, it barely changes anything"
- "it's a nerf" "defo not a buff"
- "you cannot do anything with the info".
At the same time: "well you know, SWF on Discord is not OP, we normally chat about the weekend and pizza not about the match"
You only have to see how Nurse was nerfed to the ground and people are demanding still much more, and acting like if it was nothing. Now with free guidance on the HUD a lot of perks are obsolete out of the sudden.
But there will be more, you soon will be able to know the % on generator repairs. Meanwhile Killers do not even know the hook count.
A bit sad... or should I use the word "boring"?
I defend actually removing Nurse from the game simply because i want every other killer to be better. While Nurse exists she'll always be BHVR's answer to "Survivors are too Strong" and DbD "is not Pay 2 Win, the best killer, Nurse, is FREE".
IF you told me every other killer gets a review and updated kits so they can become more useful in Competitive scenarios then i will say GOOD RIDDANCE NURSE, BURN IN HELL!
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Shelter Woods exists for SpeedRun World Record purposes because DbD is E-Sports.
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@StarLost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3323785#Comment_3323785
Eh.
MMR works fine in games with smaller communities and works fine here. It's not perfect, but it's better than what we had before.
They never said 'fails', within recent memory.
The cap is absolutely not that low.
Yes, this game is snowbally.
It doesn't work fine here because it doesn't measure any sort of skill. it simply looks at your escape/kill rate and assigns you a value that it then uses to predict wether or not you can win the next match.
It can work on smaller communities depending on how the system works, in here the system works exactly as i said above and wether you escape or get a kill has so manny variables that do not involve skill at all, that's why it doesn't measure skill but rather it does a prediction on wether or not you'll survive or die but that's a fail predicition and hence the system doesn't work because wether or not you escape or get a kill has manny factors that does not involve you directly or skill whatsoever. What skill does a killer show when a survivor kills themselves on hook!? What skill does an escape show when the killer camped some guy and you escaped before he could chase you? One thing is being stealthy and avoiding the killer, another is not even seing the killer once.
And since you don't know your own MMR and what it represents then you can't say the system works. All we can say is that matchmaking is awful and MMR does not work.
The MMR Cap in DbD is extremely low, you have brand new players being mixed with players with hundreds and thousands of hours and it's not just because of low population, it's not because of timezones, it's not because of BP Bonus incentives for whatever role, it's because within a few matches you can reach the MMR Zone where you're eligible to be playing with everyone else. SO yes the MMR Cap is too damn low.
And DbD is full of smurf accounts aswell. IF i were to go back and play my Playstation account i'm pretty sure i'd have way easier matches than i have on my STEAM account considering i havent touched PS DbD in nearly 3 years...Now put all my experience and knowledge of the game gathered during those 3 years and i'm basicly cheating the system despite technically being a returning player.
That's why i prefer the Old Rank System. Even if Forever Red Rank was a thing you'd still be playing against a higher caliber of players because you'd still have to reach Red Rank for the First time and it wasn't as easy as hitting the MMR Cap is now.
Another reason the MMR Cap is low is QUEUE Times, that's exactly why the MMR cap is lower so there's more people for the system to consider putting into a match vs the higher MMR players, otherwise they'd have to wait an unreasonable amount of time just to find a match. Which only proves the Real High MMR of DbD is a very empty space and manny of these so entitled High MMR players, manny of which famous streamers, are not in fact Real High MMR, they're just sligthly above average. Which then debunks the whole idea of High MMR within DbD which then further supports my claim of a low MMR Cap and how virtually every player is already High MMR. Which explains how BAD THE MATCHMAKING IS.
MMR itself isn't a Myth but High MMR is basicly a MYTH because HIGH MMR as we see it is every normal match.
Even Comp DbD as riddiculous as it is isn't REAL HIGH MMR, it's just a bunch of sweats sweating for bragging rights, bragging rights for a game with basicly 0 marketing which makes those braggins rights just a pure e-penis measure contest. DbD is not E-Sports and it shouldn't be because it has no ground to hold itself.
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@Ripley said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3323785#Comment_3323785
You know this game has 100x the population of games I play with players making the same "SBMM doesn't work because low population" argument. As I said before, you can have better quality matches or you can have quick matches, and BHVR chose the latter. Small studios can pull it off, by extending the matchmaking time a little along with region parameters. It's not rocket science.
It is Rocket science for BHVR, hence why after 1 year of tests, a year and half of live MMR and some more parameters testing, we are still with the same problem. And BHVR's MMR system does not account for skill at all, it's just a prediction system as explained by BHVR. It will sort out lobbies based on winning predictions. So ofc the game has a really bad matchmaking, it's predicting 1 match result without taking into account what ever happened in every other match for those players or can happen for every players in this match. It just looks at kill rates for the killer player vs escape rates of the survivors. The more kills you have the more escapes the survivor you face will have.
BHVR's MMR is designed to counter WIN STREAKS and that's it. It's made to prevent guys like Otz from winning every match with the same Build.
Even if DbD's population is 100x bigger it doesn't mean it has 100x the quality. More population means tthe quality is more diluted.
DbD is a very simple Hide & Seek game, i don't understand why most people think it isn't and why they keep fighting against it when the objectively best part of every DbD match is finding someone and chasing them, that's where Killers feel like Killers and get to use their abilities and that's where Survivors fight their hardest to Survive. Why we have to deal with Gens and Gates and so manny Timers is beyond me. Give every match a 10 minute timer and let the entire match revolve around chases, if Killers gets 12 hooks they win obviously and if any Survivor escapes then that survivor also wins even if the killer got 11 Hooks and 3 confirmed kills.
This way, you eliminate the need for Gen Rush or Kill Rush. Camping becomes irrelevant because your Objective is Hooks and not kills, and you can Solve tunneling very easily aswell because everyone can come to bodyblock for the rescued survivor cause they don't have to be somewhere else, unless they are on death hook and injured, only in that scenario should they be avoiding direct contact with the killer.
With more chases more frequently, killers could handle most of the maps as they are since they'd be going through pallets very quickly because they'll be in chase constantly. This puts pressure on Survivors to learn their looping which is a whole lot better than dealing with M1 holders and you get no time to play as killers because gens are already done while you're chasing someone somewhere else.
Gens existing is the worse aspect of DbD. Without them we'd have a proper game and we'd be able to Balance it in every aspect. And it would make Solos and SWF the exact same thing.
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As long as MMR exists no matchmaking will work. We don't have enough players, and yes i'm accounting for CROSSPLAY, to warrant not only an MMR system but a functioning matchmaking using MMR.
MMR in DbD is all but uselesss since there's absolutly no way to do any sort of tracking on any sort of statistics to have any guess where you'd be placed. BHVR themselves already admitted the system fails at depicting skill so why it's used it's beyond me except for the fact they've spent an entire year and thus lots of money during that year to attempt the system so now wer'e stuck with it wether we like it or not. And we don't like it...
Plus the Cap for MMR is so low that i'll argue 90% of the active playerbase is High MMR without much effort. It doesn't matter if you're 2000 MMR or 2 million MMR, if you're above the soft Cap then you're High MMR.
Matchmaking should always prioritize connection quality imo. Whats the reason for prioritizing queue times if the connection is bad and the match doesn't play well? The only reason DbD is prioritizing queue times is because there's been a massive drop in the player count. The game went went from nearly 70k active players just in Steam to about 34k. Roughly 50% of the player base has left the game since July 2021.
I'm from Portugal and i spend more time playing with and against Russian players, be it day time or night time than i do against any other players from any other region.
My survivor matches are either 4 man escapes or 4 man fails, there's absolutly no consistancy to my matches. I can be on a winning streak and then i'm randomly put with something i'd describe as absolute BOTS. On killer it's even worse i don't even get easy matches whatsoever and i'm strictly unable to play certain killers or it's guaranteed that i won't even get a single Hook. I legit can't play Wraith or Ghostface if i'm against Russian players, i'll get the sweatiest survivors you can imagine, body blocking on first hook, insta sabos, insta saves, you name it i've faced it. If i play Sadako or Pyramid Head i can have "normal" matches but if i win 2 matches in a row then i'm immediatly sent to "death row".
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That's what happens when the game for survivors doesn't require them to do more. It's simply using 4 buttons and the camera. M1, Shift + W and Space. This is survivor gameplay.
They won't do more than this until the game tells them they have to.
With the state the game is in, bleeding players, it's easy to notice changes in how survivors play. Most of the good players are gone because they're unhappy meaning only the less skilled players remain so you'll see less and less skill in matches.
Why you think tunnel rates went higher? Because manny survivor players who don't know how to play killer jumped ship and since they're used to very simple things from playing survivor they do the simplest things as killer, hence why tunneling went up so much. That and streamers who just tunnel and tunnel and tunnel started to become more popular too.
UNHAPPY PLAYERS - LESS PLAYERS - LESS SKILL - LESS INTERACTIVITY - LESS FUN
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The most annoying killer to go against is the average joe who only listens to streamers and plays the same way every match. That issue aside, Nurse obviously as she's the one true lord of power.
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BHVR has completly ZERO knowledge about their game and their playerbase.
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There's only 1 solution to Tunnelling, Camping and Gen Rush/Slowdown. Redesign the game so that things are either Balanced and/or Impossible.
Tunneling is absolutly boring gameplay. No Killer tunnels because they want to, they do it because they feel it's their only chance at having Time to play.
The solution is simple, redesign the game so tunneling doesn't need to exist.
Camping someone to death is the exact same issue as tunneling, it's boring gameplay. Solution is to make it so Camping doesn't need to exist.
Gen Rush and Gen Slowdown are the Biggest Problem DbD has ever had, it was there even way before we ever started considering it.
The way Survivors interact with Gens is very overwhelming for Killers and the way killers can OVERSTACK Slowdown is way too overwhelming for Survivors.
The Solution is very obvious Redesign how players on both sides interact with Gens.
IT doesn't matter how manny excuses we make as a Community to justify how people play. IT simply up to the Devs to just make the game healthier.
And making the game healthier starts with admitting where you've failed to develop the game properly. As hard as it might be, that's the first and single most important step.
The game is underdeveloped in every area that affects gameplay and trying to use Perks to fix something is a really bad solution. Maps are not Balanced, in any sense, spawns of players, spawns of objectives, spawns of loops and the strength of the loops.
The power creep between Killers themselves is such a gigantic issue. Nurse is and always has and always will be the very best killer in the game and that would be fine if the difference between her and everybody else wasn't a gigantic whole that no other killer will ever be able to leap through... How can you justify Trappers strength level when compared to Nurse? The chances of you getting a match with Trapper where you feel like a powerful useful killer are pratically 0% where if you were playing Nurse the chances of you feeling like the killer can do something are very high because the power disparity between the two is that high.
The Divide between SoloQ and SWF needs to be handled but it's not in the way of Free Information. SoloQ players will still be SoloQ players and completly left to their interpretation of events when compared to a SWF. HUD icons don't change this. SWFing means you are playing with people that you trust. This fact alone is such a gigantic relief when compared to SoloQ where you basicly expect everyone to screw you over at any moment in every match.
HUD ICONS won't make me trust any of the other 3 players more than i do now. I still gotta play like i'm the best survivor in the match or else...And the other 3 still have to play the exact same way.
The solution is simple, redesign your game so a single survivor is pretty much useless but when together then they start to aproach the killer power level. Redesign it so survivors need each other, so they have to trust each other cause right now i don't need to trust any of them. I can get hatch escape or killer mercy.
I can hide all match and not help and still benefit. I can do all the work and die and someone who didnt do much can get an escape.
Make Survivor a matter of team effort then you'll see a change in how survivors play and behave, not only towards each other but towards killers aswell.
DbD was fun the first month i've played it back in 2019 but since then it's just going downhill and for nearly 4 years i haven't seen the devs worried about anything. They just release whatever Hype Licensed Content and people flock in everytime. Then the interest dies cause nothing changes really, everything is the same old problems and the player count tanks like there's a blackhole sucking players out of DbD. Nearly 4 years of the same cycle, 2020 and 2021 were really goddamn miserable with terrible chapter after terrible chapter and the game just not even working on the biggest chapter of it's history, the RE Chapter 1. Console players couldn't play the game at all, Nemesis is an unispired design, og RPD was an absolute abomination (not that the now 2 existing RPDS are any better, they're 3 gen paradise). There's tons of evidence of things never changing.
Look at how the META didn't even change, Killers are still all in on Gen regression and survivors are still all in on gen progress and second chances.
BT was made base kit and Tunneling rates are even higher. That's a gigantic .50 cal sniper shot on your own foot. DS nerfed to the ground and tunneling rates went up.
What more evidence do you people need!?
I can go on... Ruin and Pop were nerfed to the ground but it's the same meta for killers. Manny will argue it's even worse now because killers don't even need to protect a Totem or get Hooks to get good regression they can just kick gens over and over and stall matches instead of playing.
What more evidence do you need!?
Badly developed Game that's all and that would be ok if it wasn't 6 years later but it is 6 years later...And all we see is players attacking eachother and BHVR not doing anything about it.
MMR was a bad call but they'll never admit it or move away from it. THe HUD changes were insignificant, the LOCOMOTION changes were insignificant, the new HUD icons will be insignificant.
THE META CHANGES WERE INSIGNIFICANT.
The problem is the the base game is as Gordon Ramsay would angrily say F*CKING RAW! IT's underdeveloped, not properly thought about. It's basicly a science experiment at high school level that has been going for 6+ years...
Final Fantasy 14 was so bad but they realized it, took it back and made it one of the best games you could be playing right now...
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@Milo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3314470#Comment_3314470
The logic goes like this.
If we buff solos to be on the communication levels of SWF, then killers could be buffed more so.
If you buff killers to be able to deal with SWF's then imagine the power of 1v1 killer has. Then you're forced to Buff every Solo to be equal to a SWF so now imagine the power of the 1v1 for survivors.
You end at the same position. Every single Survivor is equal in strength to the killer and the Combination of the 4 is far greater than the power of the killer.
This is exactly where you are now and always have been.
Why? Because the game is a conjunction of 1v1v1v1v1 interactions. Where every survivor is treated as a single unit instead of a 4v1, either the 4 survivors accomplish something or the 4 survivors fail. Essentially every Survivor is fighting for their own escape and not the collective escape or for the escape of the rest of the team.
Essentially Survivor is set up in a very selfish way. My Escape matters more than the team surviving. This is problematic. This is what started survivor entitlement. Survivors fight as much amongst themselves as they do against killers. And killers have their own quarrels between themselves aswell. Nurse existing perptually undercaps every other killer. She's the gatekeeper of power levels. Nothing since her creation comes close to her.
A draw means the survivors accomplsihed only 50% of their objective, same as killer. But while killer is a single unit fighting for himself, the survivors are all either working together or trying to not be the dead one, so throwing someone else under the bus happens very frequently.
The Solution is obvious then isn't it? Have the 4 together be as strong as the killer but individually weak so that they need to help each other. The only issue then is the PLAYER itself because players can be selfish and ruin the chances of the 4. That's why the game should rework it's BP scoring system and Emblem aswell to reflect a more team based aproach.
If players are told, and most importantly taught, that the game is a 4v1 and that helping other survivors is the best way to help yourself then you can Balance the game to where killers feel empowered when they are chasing someone but still feel a challenge when they have to think of the match as a whole and make quick decisions. On a similar note while survivors will feel more vulnerable when interacting with the killer, they can always find hope in the strength of the team as a whole.
If you reach this Balance then even if theres 4 skilled survivors who are good individually they are still not stronger themselves than the killer.
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@StarLost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3314475#Comment_3314475
Says...who, exactly?
And why does 'casual game' mean 'don't ever improve or balance anything'?
Why does showing your team your perks make this game less casual? It actually helps casual players - you know, people who don't have teams to coordinate. I'm not sure what your definition of casual game means either - because even playing casually, I still want to win.
Comp DbD...sure? But find me any organized tournament that doesn't have house rules.
Either I'm getting jaded in my old age, or this entire post reads like 'if my opponents are trying to win, that's not fair'.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3314478#Comment_3314478
- SBMM helps solo queue.
- MMR is better for casuals than RBMM. Infinitely better.
- Why does MMR make the game less casual?
- So...you basically mean 'make a completely different game'?
I want the game to be Balanced but it either is Balanced for Casual or it's Balanced for Competitive and sadly the game is neither because it doesn't know what it wants to be.
The basic mechanics are simple, so simple in fact that Looping as we know it was never even intended to exist, it came after players discovered they could go around structures and killers couldn't catch them and that's even before infinite loops existed, i'm talking about the power of Shift + W alone... So at the very core the game is a simple Hide & Seek. That never changed, BHVR never updated the basic core of the game to reflect whatever it evolved into. BHVR admitted this already.
The game was never designed for 4 coordinated people either. BHVR has admitted this so manny times. It was meant for 4 strangers with no coordination to find a way to survive. Cause that's the scary part of the scary game that DbD is meant to be.
SWF only ever came to be after the whole core of the game existed. That completly changes the whole Balance of the game.
SBMM does not help soloQ at all. Look at what MMR has done the past year and half, look at the playerbase dropping drastically .... SBMM does not help any game at all. SBMM only exists to limit peoples ability to win by forcing you into matches where the chances of you winning get smaller and smaller.
SBMM rigs matches against players who are good and win more often than other players. Why do you think Good Survivor Players stopped doing SoloQ? Because they were being matched with inferior survivors that drastically lowered their chances of survival.
The only option for those players to keep winning is to SWF with people who have the same or a better understanding of the game.
In theory MMR would actually put you in matches with those people BUT BHVR made onle one MMR Cap and that value is a low value that even Potatoes can reach easily, thus everything becomes very diluted because after that Cap everyone is essentially High MMR because that's the only existing Cap. There's no Cap seperating me or your from Otz, Dowsey, etc, etc except the initial Cap that you'll reach in a couple of matches. There's a bare minimum entry level and then everyone is the same. Skill is completly irrelevant.
Imagine it's like a bar. If the minimum age entry is 18 then if you're 18 or 100 years old it doesn't matter you're allowed to enter because you've reached the minmum required entry age. That's MMR in DbD. It doesn't matter if anyone has 4534050346503450836 MMR or 1 MMR if 1 MMR is the level required then both 4634867389 MMR and 1 MMR can get queued together. And this is what has happened and why? BECAUSE EVERYONE NEEDS TO GET MATCHES.
SO IN ORDER FOR EVERYONE TO GET MATCHES MMR BECOMES IRRELEVANT. Connection quality becomes irrelevant aswell.
Due to the disparity in Population on both roles, lower MMR killers are being thrown against SWF's because everybody has to get a match going or else they can't play and if they can't play then they won't be in DbD.
MMR has been the single worst decision ever made but they've spent so manny resources and time on this that it's basicly impossible for them to do anything else.
No only do players hate MMR and any form of SBMM, ask CoD, Battlefield and any other players from any other game with SBMM on it, but MMR itself sabotages the matchmaking when there aren't enough players.
Why do you think BHVR created the Role Bonus BP? To convince people to play the other role. Why do you see the Bonus BP mostly on Survivor? Because MMR has ruinned SoloQ thus there's less and less survivors in SoloQ thus the BP Bonus being mostly on Survivor.
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Off the top of my head:
NO MORE MMR.
NO CHAT.
SMALLER MAPS.
BETTER M1 KILLERS
NERF M2 KILLERS
NEW SURVIVOR GAMEPLAY. HOLDING M1 IS STUPID.
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Say hello to the wonders of MMR. And lack of players. THe player base is really really low at the moment. We only have numbers for STEAM but the the other platforms will not be far off cause the state of the game is the same everywhere except consoles have less statibility in terms of performance so it's doubtful that they have high player counts.
Thhe game has been bleeding players for the past year and half...
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You want to see the game in a healthier state and to help SoloQ? Start by admitting MMR was a colossal mistake. That alone will bring in all the players that left, you'll see more players, faster queues, more people willing to play SoloQ. Then start fixing your game. Fix maps, ACTUALLY NERF NURSE INSTEAD OF GIVING HER BILLION BLINKS AGAIN. BUFF ALL M1 KILLERS and GIVE SURVIVORS SOME OTHER WAY OF WORKING ON GENS INSTEAD OF JUST HOLDING M1.
The game is boring and lacks interactibility. Fix this and the game will feel brand new and fun.
The 2 and half years we've wasted on MMR tests and implentation can be saved...
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Nobody should see your Perks!
DbD isn't a Comp Game, it's a CASUAL Game! You're not an Esports Pro you're some random person playing DbD! And "Comp" DbD is full of made up rules already, meaning they're not part of the game but you people want all the crazy BS to actually be part of the game!?
Have you people ever watched "Comp" DbD? It's a snooze fest of tunneling and camping and gen rush.
Why do you people keep asking for things that should not exist? Why do you keep asking for SWEATY things to exist and then complain when people play SWEATY!?
IT'S NOT A GAME MEANT TO BE SWEATY! Nobody has fun in sweaty matches!
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So next you want full aura 100% of the time too?
What is it with people wanting everything? The game is already boring as is for survivors since the objective is just Holding M1 whenever you're not interacting with killer and you want to remove what little unpredictability it has...
No you shouldn't know what % of progress things are. That will only lead to more gen rushing cause people will split up more and Killers will respond with more gen slowdown and more tunneling and more camping. You're only making things worse.
Everytime you want to buff survivors you have to give killers equal tools or else the already negative aspects of one side will only increase.
Stop asking for free handouts and improve your damn skill as a player. You already know that they're working on gens so freaking TRUST THEM TO FINISH THEM ASWELL, what sense would they have to not finish the gen? The only reasons you leave gens are because you're being chased or you're going to rescue someone and you know when there's someone that needs to be rescued so you can make the logical simple conclusion of : oh he left the gen he 's tryign the rescue.
USE YOUR BRAIN STOP ASKING FOR FREE HANDOUTS.
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For me the game is in a terrible state and it has nothing to do with stats like kill rates or escape rates, perk usage rates, character pick rates, it has to do with players and BHVR.
Players going at each other, players generally unhappy, players leaving, etc and BHVR acts like everything is fine. We get the usual content updates and that's it. Communication is poor, transparency does not exist.
The wheel keeps on spinning and it's another year of DbD with the same issues over and over and over. We've been hating MMR since the tests and it's still here, we're still hating 4 slowdown builds, we're still hating 4 second chance builds, we're still talking about gen rushing, we're still talking about Tunneling, Camping...
Nothing ever gets better. We're thrown some Licensed content for Hype and then it's back to the regularly scheduled programing of constantly going over the same issues over and over again as if 7 years haven't passed and the game has made nothing to be better.
Matchmaking exists? Legit question... Do people actually learn how to play? Another legit question...
I constantly feel like the game goes nowhere, that's why i stop playing. Whenever i feel like i'm in the same circle i just can't play it anymore.
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The HUD will definetly lead to that yes because players are dumb as bricks. People will accuse each other of doing this and not that when they should be doing this and not that.
The point of having the icons is dumb to start with. It doesn't bridge the gap at all between SoloQ and SWF since the issue isn't that disparity.
The real issue is players not knowing and/or not wanting to do the objective, the problem resides in player choice.
Look the game is rather simple, avoid the killer, do gens, open gate and get out. If you are found by the killer you just try to loop and buy everyone else as much time as possible. Getting downed and Hooked isn't a drama, you've got 3 lives to use.
Meaning all the time you're not being chased should be put forth into doing gens. Call it gen rush if you want but the truth is that's Survivors objective, gen rush is the ONLY thing survivors can do to move forward. IT falls on killers to be able to pressure survivors. If the game doesn't allow Killers to pressure then the game is at fault, not survivors, nor killers. BHVR needs to adress those issues.
If the game lacks in interactability between killers and survivors then the game's at fault not players. Playing stealthy as a survivor is just as acceptable as it is to tunnel and camp no matter how much each sides foams at the mouth because of these playstyles. It falls on BHVR to give both sides tools to play and counter each other and to Balance those tools so that people don't feel cheated on.
It also falls on BHVR and DbD to teach the various mechanics of the game to all players. The tutorial is still grossly and shockingly overlooking the best defense survivors have, that is LOOPING!
Shift + W by itself is an already effective tool but it's a simple no brain effort require method that leads absolutly nowhere down the line. You're not progressing as a player you're just using some rather basic thing that works because it's intended to work way too often to protect new players.
There's a gigantic focus on Casual players from BHVR but at the same time they then implement a system like MMR that just drags everyone down and protects nobody cause we're all at each others throats.
So yes the HUD icons will contribute to toxicity because somewhere sometime someone will definetly say : you did this and not that, bla bla bla, you this, you that, bla bla bla...
The only way forward is to teach people how to play, how to accept the game. Icons won't save SoloQ, better prepared players will.
The fastest way to make SoloQ better is to remove MMR from the game, you'll see the better players return to the game, you'll see more experienced players playing in SoloQ again and things will get better.
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I started playing DbD because of the Power Role Fantasy and they had already Myers and Ghostface in the Roster so it was a very appealling deal. Taking the mantle of famous horror icons to chase unknown players online? That's a great recipe for a game. It just sucks that a good game is held down by bad decisions from a dev team that refuses to listen.
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Excuse my intromission, i'm just a 3 year old dbd noob...
MMR is the single biggest culprit of everything we dislike right now. As much as some players didn't deserve to be Red Rank 1 there's a much larger number of players who don't belong above the Low MMR Cap we have right now, that are just polutting queues and making matches far worse than what they were under the Old Rank System.
It wasn't perfect but people were slotted in far better postions and nobody was afraid to play either role.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3309711#Comment_3309711
We may have a different definition of competitive here. We're thinking ruthless cut-throat must win cause something important depends on it. Neither swf nor MMR actually does that.
Well, hi me a player of the killer role do you believe that adding swfs makes things more competitive? Why no me I don't think being able to play with friends inherently makes the game more competitive, why I think that it's the PLAYERS doing so. (You did say any)
MMR should NOT be making the game "competitive" as the above definition. It's job is to match players of skill level (though we think it matches determination to sweat instead) so your not having completely 1 sided matches so people can ya know play the game. In a perfect world where MMR works, those "competitive" ones would be matched with each other and so on.
If you keep getting bad teammates that more a you thing as I (and the other 2 who use Rulebreaker) get decent teammates more often than not in solo. Sure a streak of bad ones show occasionally but often it's because they're doing rift challenges causing stupidity.
You know we have a brain and still go to solo q. Infact we'd bet that there's others who are the same. Ditto with facing swfs as most swfs are CASUALS playing with friends.
If we missed something please let us know as it's hard to read it all on a dying phone
SWF offers only advantages, no downsides, wether you take it serious or not, that's on you. But you can't change the fact that if you're in a SWF then you're most likely with people you know. So if you know them then you might play other games with them aswell, so over time you know how they play, you know you can trust them. You can't trust anyone in SoloQ because there's a huge variety of things they can be doing and players with different objectives.
MMR makes the game more competitive because everyones wants to be High MMR to be able to say they are GOOD. The mistake with MMR in DbD is not staying true to it's meaning. Being High MMR in DbD means nothing. High MMR in DbD means you reach a certain number, after that certain number you're High MMR and this would be Ok if that number was a High number but it isn't, it's a low number than anyone can easily reach. IF everyone can reach it then why does MMR exist!? IT makes no sense. However matchmaking is using MMR so it's putting good players with bad players and the result is good players are being pulled down by the bad players, nobody is progressing this way.
Yes the majority of players are Casuals. That's why it makes no sense for the game for be targetingt Casual players and then having system that promote competitive play...
Inherently because it's 4v1 it's always going to be competitive but BHVR keeps pushing for systems like MMR and SWF that are Competitive Focused instead but they don't update their basic game to that. They simply slap the system in and this is the result.
If you remove MMR people won't care about winning as much because they can't say they have high MMR because they had a hard match. People treat hard matches as high MMR when that is not always reality. There's so manny things that make matches hard. RNG, small unnoticed mistakes, etc.
If you remove SWF then Matchmaking Balances out because you can no longer choose who you play with, it's random for everyone, thus the strength of Survivors is dependant on individual player skill. but since the game is meant to be Casual then winning or losing won't really matter. You're allowed to have fun and still be good even if you don't technically escape or got 4 kills.
Killers no longer have to be afraid and look at profiles to guess if they are facing SWFs and if they should try hard and use scummy tactics or not.
If there's no SWF and no MMR then people are free. I know it's nice to grab your friends and play matches together but killers don't know what you want to do until the match happens and even if you're not sweatting hard for the win it's still valid that you try to escape because that's your objective.
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One thing i agree is that the entire Hooking system needs a revamp. However you still have Hooks and you can still tunnel and Camp.
My suggestion is to make use of Pyramid Heads Cage's as the new model for the Sacrifice System.
Every survivor that gets downed, can quickly be sent into a Cage to a random location, not the fursthest away from killer, this would directly give killer an area to look for the cage in the pursuit to tunnel.
This solves both tunnelling and Camping. If the Cage is sent away then you have nothing to Camp and if the Cage is sent to somewhere Random then you have the whole Map to search, so the Survivor can either have been sent far away or actually stayed Close.
This creates a scenario where killers won't have easy access to Tunnel or Camp the Survivor.
Should the killer find the survivor before they are rescued, the Timer is stopped and the Caged survivor is relocated. This prevents Camping and forces the killer to move. This will repeat until the Survivors is Rescued.
After the Survivor is rescued they'll have 60 seconds of Endurance until they take any action to progress the game, doing gens, Totems or healing, healing assumes you are in safety thus not being tunneled.
This is mostly already existing, you simply give Survivors endurance after being rescued from cages. Removes Camping, minimalizes Tunneling to such a degree that it's now a time waster not a time saver.
2 Birds 1 stone and minimal effort from BHVR required.
Change Perks to procc with Cages and there you go.
Benefits survivors because they can't be relentlessly asssaulted by killers but they now can't make flashy rescues, now flashies can be reworked for something new.
Benefits for killers is more time being active instead of having to worry about wether or not they can get to a hook in time and to which hook should they go. Quickly send survivors away to cages spawned by the entity and go about pressuring somebody else. you can change Scourge Hook Perks to work on a timer. They activate once, they go on cooldown, any cages used during cooldown will be treated same as non scourge hooks are now. Once cooldown is done next cage is a special cage again. This way we keep the original spirit of the Perks but in a new format.
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Rather than Nerfing Eruption i'd just revert the Pop Goes the Weasel Nerf. Another viable option is better than just nerfing what is Meta and reshuffling the deck.
I'd revert the DS nerf aswell while there isn't a better solution for Tunnelling (i'd revamp the entire Hooking system but since that won't happen anytime...). Clearly the Baske Kit Borrowed Time Change hasn't discouraged killers from tunnelling.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3309530#Comment_3309530
Your going to have to explain this one to us. If we read this right, you think adding swf and MMR is making the game less casual?
Adding swf so people can play with friends makes this more competitive? We don't think being able to play games with friends makes it competitive. MMR itself also doesn't as it's job is to try and make a fair match (results may vary). Its the players who are trying to turn what we see as essentially a party game into a competitive eSport.
Those changes are made to make the game less casual however the core of the game was designed before that was the case and they haven't changed the core of the game to reflect those changes, thus the identity crisis of DbD.
Yes SWF makes things more competitive, ask any killer player.
Yes MMR should make things more competitive but it doesn't because it's literally ignoring skill whatsoever, so it's only a detriment to matchmaking. You can't get better Teammates because virtually everyone is a bad teammate so good players resort to SWF which removes any good player from the pool so every bad/new player is trapped in Elo Hell against killers that are in fewer number who face the issue of either getting destroyed because they were the strawpicked killers to face that SWF in queue or they're destroying bad players and climb in MMR and then get destroyed and then face more bad players and then get destroyed after climbing MMR a bit, and so on and so forth.
Yes players are trying to make it ESports and BHVR is listening to them hence why SWF and MMR were added after the game already existed. That's the identity crisis.
They have a Casual Core while trying to make ESports happen. You can't do both in a single game mode. Seperate playlists and deal with them both differently and you're basicly Balancing 2 games or commit to one side and rebalance the whole game for it, which would mean remove everything that goes against the thing you chose.
You want it Casual? Remove MMR, remove the emphasis on wins at any cost. You want to make it more Esports? Then remake the core of your game to be a Balanced battle.
Pick one and Commit. You can't have a tug of war between wanting Money from Casuals and Balancing the game for "Pros". You either build your game for Casuals and everyone can "win because results don't matter" or you make the game in a skillfull plane where you need coordination and effort.
What you cannot do is have the Chaos that is SoloQ because anyone with a brain refuses to play SoloQ and anyone with a brain refuses to play Killer against SWF's. Dammned if you do and damned if you don't.
At that point you just gotta say well what do i play then? And the results are You see the game lose players every month since july 2021...The Casuals came and are not staying cause SoloQ is Chaos, new killers don't exist, they win a few matches, get put into the MMR Cap and then it's the killer queue Chaos. And you have the game bleeding players on both sides...
Pick one and commit...Keep it true to what it was always meant to be and remove the things that attempt to make it something else or change the core of your game to reflect the new path.
If you choose the new path then Gens definetly need to be adressed as the curent gameplay revolves around them, they're too fast for one side and too slow for the other. You gotta solve the Holding M1 issue vs the lack of interaction with killer.
I've already presented solutions to this like i've presented solutions to manny other things. Do my solutions go towards a more "Esports" side? Yes and no, i want a game that knows what it is, if it can go Esports? Yes it could, should it go? Idk but at least i have picked and decided on something that is far better than the Chaos that is engulfing it.