jesterkind
jesterkind
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I don't really understand this criticism that changes are "unnecessary" or that "nobody asked for them". Why does that matter? Nobody complains about unexpected changes if they're positive, it clearly isn't actually a problem.
Also, some of these absolutely, categorically were asked for, or were part of a larger suite of changes that people asked for.
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@kizuati said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3108017#Comment_3108017
If a person shoots someone with the intent of healing them and ends up killing them it's not misleading to say that they've committed a murder. Intent doesn't matter,what the hell are you talking about
@kizuati said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3108017#Comment_3108017
also you do realize vs plague you either eat the same Thana value or give her the second best chase power in the game,right?
1: Absolutely, but we're talking about video game balance and not legal crimes. When it comes to these situations, intent does matter, so you don't get extremely annoying "why are they nerfing this, it's already bad" comments if nothing else.
2: Again, one person has to heal, and then Thana is useless. Plague will probably use it better than Legion going forward, but it's still absolutely been nerfed and its obnoxious nature will be dramatically lowered since it is no longer an uphill battle to try and counter it.
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@Clockwork_Enigma said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3107974#Comment_3107974
You: "Thanatophobia was absolutely nerfed for Legion and Plague..."
- You realize that this is the same game where Legion has the ability to cause Broken when Survivors self-mend with an add-on, and also afflict Mangled in two different ways with either a Perk or an add-on, right?
- And also the same game where you're inherently slowed down trying to find a Survivor to mend you so that you DON'T get those status effects on you from those add-ons, right?
You: "It's misleading to simply say it's "being nerfed" when it's clearly not the intention."
- Nerf: Mettle of Man now deactivates when doing a conspicuous action.
- Nerf: Mettle of Man no longer works against Deep Wound.
- Nerf: Mettle of Man now reveals your aura when you are 16 meters or more away from the Killer, while it is active.
You: "I'll happily take an obnoxious combo being brought back in a less obnoxious form and one bad perk remaining a bad perk in exchange for the Thana nerf and getting Clown back."
- I would genuinely rather keep current Thanatophobia instead of having a combo that was too powerful to begin with back.
Oh boy, that's a lot.
Okay, so... yes, Legion has one addon for inflicting Broken on people. Legion would still need all four survivors both alive and injured to get maximum slowdown, and the second one guy can heal, the slowdown is shredded. Even if that doesn't happen, the pressure lets up when one person dies.
Provided one person can be healed, Thanataphobia is near useless. It categorically was nerfed, both for Legion and for Plague. It's not a perfect solution since it's still useless for any other killer, but facing Thana Legion or Plague will categorically be less obnoxious because countering it is now way easier- to the point where countering it is meaningfully possible.
As for MoM, yep, those are the nerfs! Well, kind of- MoM already did that last thing when you were healed, and now it does it straight away. MoM also got a buff in that it requires only two Protection hits to activate, so it seems pretty clear that the intent is to bring it more in line with other Endurance perks while making it easier to activate. There's room for discussion as to just how much that'll help, which is why simply saying it "got nerfed" is misleading; that clearly wasn't the intent, even if it might end up being the effect.
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While I agree that the DMS/PR combo coming back is not great, Thanataphobia was absolutely nerfed for Legion and Plague. It will absolutely be less obnoxious after this patch, especially for solo queue.
As for MoM, it's misleading to simply say it's "being nerfed" when that clearly isn't the intention, and I think it's a little early to be judging those changes before we've seen them in action. Even if it's weaker, though, I hardly think a bad perk being made slightly worse is reason to delay a patch.
I'll happily take an obnoxious combo being brought back in a less obnoxious form and one bad perk remaining a bad perk in exchange for the Thana nerf and getting Clown back. It's not perfect, but it's extremely far away from the worst patch they've ever done and it is absolutely a net positive for the Thana change alone.
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I think "almost as strong" is a huge overstatement, since even one person healing absolutely demolishes the slowdown speed of all other survivors.
This change definitely didn't address the issue of Thana being almost useless on any other killer than Legion or Plague, but it did address how obnoxiously unfun it is on those two killers, so. Could be worse.
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@6659Leg said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3107487#Comment_3107487
Dunno about this tbh,The ability to see ahead of what your matchmaking will lead to entitled twits leaving if they see 1 person not running the absolute meta or just general trolling.
It's a risk, but I don't think it'd be a particularly huge problem.
If nothing else, it's a risk I'd like to see taken in a PTB to test it out, since the potential upsides are pretty significant.
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@GrimReaperJr1232 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3107609#Comment_3107609
I'm not arguing thana didn't need a change (See above edit). What I will argue is that this change is asinine when you're bringing back THIS abomination of a combo.
Ah, gotcha- understood.
You are still wrong, though, as this does address that obnoxiousness since only one guy needs to heal now, not everyone. One guy healing is not going to be hard to achieve even for disorganised solos, and even if it is... once one guy dies you will be incapable of reaching max slowdown, assuming I understand the description right. Any way you slice it, this curtails Thana Legion and Plague hard.
Even still, I also think it's kind of irrelevant to compare the two. Bringing back PR/DMS is unfortunate regardless of what other suspect changes are being made.
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@GrimReaperJr1232 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3107580#Comment_3107580
Except it didn't. Now Thana is only usable on those two killers.
People don't like cleansing against Plague and Legion has Legion Pin to break you. You're still gonna hate Thana on them.
Thana was already meaningfully only usable on those two killers.
One guy heals right now, it lowers the overall slowdown from max stacks by 5.5%. One guy heals after this change, it lowers the overall slowdown from max stacks by 14%. Legion and Plague will still get use from it, but countering it will no longer be an uphill struggle as maximum slowdown will only be present in bursts.
Even if you're right (you're not) how on earth does that translate to it not needing to be nerfed...? If it's still obnoxious and annoying after the change, that means it was obnoxious and annoying before the change, which means that it obviously warranted addressing?
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I'm not a huge fan of seeing PR/DMS come back either, but I don't think we gain anything from pretending that Thana didn't warrant being nerfed specifically and explicitly because of how obnoxious it can be on those two killers.
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What I want would be some variation on the following:
- Action icons for portraits. It was a good suggestion, I wanna see it in-game, they had a good idea there.
- The ability to see your teammate's perk build in the pre-game lobby and in the mid-match "match details" screen. Plenty of perks are the sole domain of SWF because they require some kind of coordination to activate, and even more are made less effective by your team not realising what you're trying to achieve with them. Nothing can force random teammates to cooperate, but people should at least have the option if they're paying attention and feeling team-oriented.
- Some form of basekit Kindred would still be a good idea. Either the effects of the perk itself, or some other indication for when the killer is camping.
- Not really strictly a solo queue only thing, but the basekit anti-tunnel measures could use a slight buff. In my opinion, buffing the Haste percentage instead of either duration is the right call.
Solo queue's problems are, exclusively, a lack of information and a lack of coordination. Nothing can force random teammates to coordinate if they don't want to, but you can fix the information gap.
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@Firellius said:
1 surv injured = 2%
2 surv injured = 4%
3 surv injured = 6%
4 surv injured = 20% (12 + 8)
So basically, the perk that was a problem on Legion and Plague is nerfed in a way that strongly deters other killers from using it, but doesn't really affect Legion and Plague.
The exact opposite of the intended goal, then.
This is so silly as well, since a better solution is right around the corner from this. Just invert it.
1 surv injured: 12%
2 surv injured: 14%
3 surv injured: 16%
4 surv injured: 18%
Now it's MORE effective on killers that ordinarily wouldn't get value out of it, and LESS effective on Legion and Plague.
While I'm not against other changes, I do want to contest that it's not affecting Legion or Plague at all- that's actually the only thing it does do, since other killers basically didn't want to use it already.
On the live servers, a single heal lowers the total slowdown by 5.5%, meaning you want to try and get multiple people healthy to get meaningful progress back. With this change, a single heal lowers the total slowdown by 14% (the 12% you get for all four being injured, and the 2% of that survivor's individual stack)-- meaning that getting one person healed is far more potent counterplay than it was before.
It'll still be moderately okay on Legion and Plague since they can get everyone injured and keep them injured easier, but it's less of a mind-numbing slog to counter on the survivor side.
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@YOURFRIEND said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3106726#Comment_3106726
No, it doesn't. All one survivor has to do is cleanse or heal and it's back to 6%. 6% is 1% more than you got for a single stack previously. Do you think it's difficult for one survivor to cleanse? For one survivor to heal? I main legion and I'll tell you: I every survivor on the map doesn't become and stay injured as soon as I push m2. The perk does nothing unless all four survs are injured and that simply does not happen.
No, I don't think it's difficult. I also think that its current state is a problem, and so reigning it in by making its peak effectiveness less consistent is a perfectly acceptable choice.
Thanataphobia is not a good perk, right now, on live servers. It's a bad perk two killers can transform into a truly obnoxious perk. It will remain, after this nerf, a bad perk two killers can use somewhat less effectively. I would still prefer to see it changed overall, but it's still only useful for Legion and Plague, that hasn't changed.
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@YOURFRIEND said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3106530#Comment_3106530
They killed it. 6% for having three survivors injured? That's nothing.
The only killers who used Thana consistently before are the two that can easily injure and maintain injures. How much it gives at three survivors injured is only relevant insofar as a single heal is easier counterplay than everyone finding the time to heal and do gens.
Like I said. I'd like to see it be more useful across the board, but this maintains its current use case while addressing how obnoxious it can feel. It's fine.
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@CakeDuty said:
I don't think they solved the problem with Thana. It wasn't really that big of an issue on most killers. It was an issue on Legion and Plague (they even mentioned it in their dev post), but now the perk is only reliable on them, since they are the only ones that can reliably keep all survivors injured.
So they nerfed the perk for other killers without solving why people wanted it changed in the first place. So I'm not fully sure what the devs thought process were on this change.
I think they did fix the issue, personally. This way, the amount of slowdown the killer gets is dramatically less if even one survivor heals up, meaning that it's not an uphill battle to undo the effects of Thanatophobia against a quick-injure killer.
Legion and Plague may be able to injure everyone quickly, but on live servers one survivor healing takes 5.5% off their total slowdown. With this change, it takes 14% off their total slowdown in one heal. That's pretty significant counterplay.
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I'd still personally like to see Thanataphobia completely reworked, but this ought to stop it from being obnoxious- the same killers are gonna want to use it, that's not changed, but at least they have to commit to injuring everyone before they'll get anything that noticeable.
I'm alright with this, it seems like a perfectly acceptable response to the problem.
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@Deathstroke said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3098777#Comment_3098777
Then im surpriced killers tunnel and camp now almost every game which is understandable after BBQ nerf.
I'm not sure how that connects to what I'm saying here. Could you elaborate?
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I'm not sure I'm following what you're saying.
If you have multiple characters at prestige 1, any new character you want to play is going to start off with a massive boost from a grind perspective because they already have a ton of perks at tier 1 and thus only need to find them at tiers 2 and 3 in the bloodweb- compare to before where you'd have to find all three tiers of every single teachable.
In fact, that's the biggest strength of this new system, every time you want to swap to a new character you aren't starting from scratch.
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My boy...
I desperately hope he's fixed as quickly as possible, but I'll steel myself for waiting until the next chapter if I have to. He'll live on in my heart until then...
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Did people really run that perk often before, though?
I can only speak anecdotally, but in both my killer and survivor games pre-patch it only very rarely made an appearance- nowhere near as often as BBQ did. If survivors aren't saving their teammates from the hook now, I don't think WGLF is really affecting that decision either way.
(Though I am of course in favour of more BP gains, I just don't think you should feel forced to run one specific perk for BP gains)
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I don't really think Overcharge is a problem in its current state, since it starts out slower than base regression. Similarly, I don't think both effects of Eruption should be nerfed, just the extra regression.
The other two I agree with, those would be perfectly serviceable changes.
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3100153#Comment_3100153
If someone tells me the earth is flat I'm disagreeing because it's obviously not true.
Thank god we're talking about a video game, and thank god it's obviously not as clear cut as that, eh?
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@Gindaen said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3099750#Comment_3099750
No, because BHVR doesn't make decisions based purely on the forums.... Let me point out something that was changed because of forum outcry.
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Jan 25, 2002 - Boil Over was buffed to have a flat 25% wiggle increase from falling and 100% strafe intensity
Feb 9, 2002 (Just 15 days) - Boil Over was nerfed because of the outcry from killers on these forums
I'd argue Boil Over was changed because it was objectively a problem and was being used to force unwinnable situations by survivors who burned RPD offerings, personally.
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3099637#Comment_3099637
When you say that a 5 second BT basekit made solo q better I just dont disagree with you, it's worse than that.
What?
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3099612#Comment_3099612
I'm sticking it out, in fact I'm already on page 8 of the rift, that's how much I have been playing. It's still not ok and only people who dont play solo q say it is ok.
Is it really so unfathomable that people legitimately disagree with you?
I play solo queue. The problems it has right now are the problems it's always had, and those problems did not get substantially worse with this patch when you correct for the idiots giving up immediately. In fact, certain problems that solo queue has had for a while got very slightly better.
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3099566#Comment_3099566
Oh you mean things that have nothing to do with balance were changed, and survivor perks got nerfed + overcharged.
Yea, they did take a lot of feedback from the forums alright, that was their big mistake because of the forums demographic.
...Everything there except the prestige reward is balance, what are you talking about? I guess the BP bonuses aren't balance, though I'd hardly discount those as bad changes considering BP gains are still one of the main things that need working on for this update.
If you agree that they listened to feedback then literally why are you trying to challenge me saying that they listened to feedback?
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3099545#Comment_3099545
I'm asking you directly, which changes were that from player feedback?
Alright.
-Bloodpoint category caps and overall bloodpoint storage cap increased; a clear response to people talking about their diminished bloodpoint gains after the bonuses were removed from BBQ and WGLF.
-Prestige node cost decreased from 50k to 20k; people didn't like how high the cap was. I saw multiple people saying that it shouldn't exist, but if it is going to exist, it should be lower. Clearly, them lowering it is responding to player feedback.
-Endurance chaining was removed; this one is self explanatory.
-Spine Chill was changed. Also self explanatory.
-OTR was changed to disable in the endgame. Self explanatory.
-Overcharge was nerfed, after players raised concerns about how nasty it'd be to handle when paired with other tools. (Personally I wasn't convinced on that one, but it was clearly listening to feedback!)
-Pre-update prestige 3 reward was changed. People hated the original, this is listening to feedback.
You'll notice this is nearly everything in the dev update, hence me just pointing you towards it. The only things that weren't feedback related in there were arguably some of the other cosmetic changes and the Inner Focus change.
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3098761#Comment_3098761
Which feedback was that?
Go double check the July dev update. It's not hard to see that the changes that were made happened because of the feedback from the forums.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3098854#Comment_3098854
hard tunnelling is now completely impossible with tunnelling in general made harder
That's completely untrue. 5 seconds of base BT is useless and DS got omega-nerfed.
and the grind reduction benefits everyone too
Grind changes benefits older players and makes new players have to go through more of a grind. Also, the ######### bloodweb tax is ridiculous.
By "hard tunnelling" I mean downing you immediately after you're unhooked, which is now completely impossible. Five seconds of base BT and Haste is not useless (though there are going to be scenarios where it's not enough), and while DS got nerfed Off The Record is now far more effective as an anti-tunnel tool than DS ever was. All that adds up to tunnelling being made harder.
New players don't have to go through more of a grind. The ten extra bloodweb levels come with the benefit of slashing the grind in third for all those perks, on every subsequent character. That's better for everyone, since even in the worst case scenario you're reducing the RNG considerably and giving players more control over getting perk tiers unlocked for the perks they actively want.
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@CyberRoninX said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3098836#Comment_3098836
And solo probably makes up 70% of games killers are paired against, if not more than that which makes your argument moot. There was almost nothing that benefited survivors this patch. A few perks got a minor buff that's it. Killers recieved a huge buff to perks and base kit. If you can count to 5 you can still tunnel anyone you want and they did nothing to address camping.
Yes, but let's not fall into the trap of pretending that you get braindead teammates every match. In most matches they're at least trying, and even if they weren't, what exactly would a balance patch change in that regard?
There was plenty that benefit survivor this patch. Not as much as killer, for obvious reasons, but survivors get to benefit from the shaken meta on both sides, hard tunnelling is now completely impossible with tunnelling in general made harder, and the grind reduction benefits everyone too. Specific kinds of camping are still a problem, but it's misleading to only focus on that at the exclusion of the more positive changes.
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@CyberRoninX said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3098761#Comment_3098761
You are 100% right they didn't ignore feedback. They listened to every killer main and they got their way.
Not everything that got changed from the PTB was to cater to "killer mains", even if we accept that shockingly unhelpful framing.
The changes they made to the prestige system benefit everyone, and they addressed Overcharge, just off the top of my head.
If we must continue looking at things through the lens of "x side", the survivor side weren't left in the lurch here. There's plenty that benefits survivors, and that side is more enjoyable now too- provided you get a team that doesn't give up, anyway, which admittedly isn't within your control if you play solo lol
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@Erukani said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3098761#Comment_3098761
Replace the word 'players' with 'killer mains', and you're spot-on. ;)
I've been playing far more survivor in this update and I would consider it a pretty solid success from that perspective too.
Your opinion quite genuinely isn't fact here, it's not objectively a disaster. A lot of people are having fun too.
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@YOURFRIEND said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3098757#Comment_3098757
That grind is a temporary one. At some point a new player will have all the perks they want and need and are still left grinding for items and addons, many of which are just as useful as any given perk. If one skips the perks for a couple killer releases then they'll be right back where they began on the bloodweb treadmill with little overall gains.
The system is a poor one, I suspect by design.
Hard disagree. They absolutely are better off if they skip the perks for a couple killer releases, because all the perks they've already unlocked are unlocked by default on those new killers before a single bloodpoint is spent. That's an improvement over the old system!
I disagree that this is a poor system but I really disagree that it's by design. Come on, what do they gain from doing this poorly? It's a full blown conspiracy mindset.
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They categorically did not ignore feedback from the PTB, some pretty significant changes were made that were explicitly because of feedback from a lot of players.
To your point, I'd imagine they're silent because it supposedly being a disaster is a pretty huge claim that isn't really backed up by reality. For a lot of players, myself included, it's been a pretty noteworthy success!
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@YOURFRIEND said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3098704#Comment_3098704
It merely redirected the grind. It's sleight of hand.
Not really, it reduced the grind very noticeably and then as a side effect, introduced a much more minor grind of a completely different type that only affects a handful of killers. That's not a redirection, and it's definitely not sleight of hand since it doesn't seem intentional.
The actual grind - IE, spreading perks across multiple characters - absolutely got reduced. There being another thing that needs addressing doesn't take away from that.
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@YOURFRIEND said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3098599#Comment_3098599
Since you have to grind through trash bloodwebs in order to get the stuff you want players will inevitably end up with way more lower rarity addons and items than they used to. That's fine for killers like demo who's best addons are lower tier, but what about doctor who is very unpleasant to play without shock delay addons? It also unfairly hurts killers who's iri and purple add-ons are key to their viability. Imagine going through 50 levels of bloodweb and not getting a single iri remote? Absolutely devastating. I want to use the stuff that makes the game fun more often than once every thirty games, especially with the RNG inherent to dead by daylight.
Okay?
I wouldn't be against adjusting the rarity scaling for post-prestige, but the worst case scenario is that some killers now have an addon grind where one never existed before. That doesn't mean that the current system isn't quite good at reducing the grind that already existed and caused problems before.
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It's definitely a lot better, since spreading perks across characters got noticeably easier.
I think the next step is to just give players more bloodpoints. On the PTB you got like, a million BP per day, and on there it was really obvious that if you have bloodpoints to spare it greases the wheels to make the system function near-perfectly.
Obviously players shouldn't need that much again, but better score events, more avenues for extra BP, and other such tools would be an ideal next step to help this system flourish.
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The first step in addressing Trapper is to accept that he's never going to be an S-tier killer because of the core design of his kit and theming. Even Hag, the stronger trap killer by far, kinda can't raise above A tier because of setup time and the ability for survivors to 'disarm' her traps too.
After that, there are some things that can be done to help Trapper reach his maximum potential! In my opinion, the biggest offenders are his atrocious early setup time, and the dwindling amount of good trap spots in the newer/updated maps. So with that in mind, I have two major things I'd like to see.
1: Adjust the base colour of his traps a little to help normalise their base level of stealth on all maps, and rework the Tar Bottle into something that colours traps based on the map you load into. Either active camouflage, or just making them slightly transparent, whichever one works easier. Basically, a little of whichever tactic for basekit, then have the addon intensify it.
2: Have his traps spawn in a tighter radius towards the centre of the map. It's nice to have traps available to pick up as you chase survivors deeper into the map, but realistically the far edges of the map are somewhere you never wanna go for a huge number of maps in this game, so having his traps spawn a little closer to the centre + the same side as him would help cut down on how much time he has to invest before he has all of his power available. I've seen people suggest that he should just start with all his traps on hand, but I'm not convinced- there's a reason that's an addon with a steep downside, he can do some nasty things with eight traps on hand. Better to let him set them up a little quicker with his current limitations.
Those are the big ones. I'd also love to see traps taken off the Red Twine list for Maps, a slightly faster base setting speed, and a few other tweaks, but those are less important.
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In fairness, me doing the same means I did actually give a survivor Dead Hard value earlier, lol.
Still... it's nice to not have to worry about DH for distance, too.
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I've also noticed people running it still. Maybe word just hasn't gotten out to the playerbase at large yet...
Though, to be fair, I saw a fair amount of Self-Care in my survivor matches before. Hard to say if it's actually increased or if I'm just noticing it more now.
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@kisfenkin said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3079279#Comment_3079279
How can I be sure? Because I am experienced. If you go into a match and know how the game works from both points of view, and have two points of view into the match on the survivors' side, you see a very clear picture of what is happening in the match. Also, after one of us dies I can see directly through the eyes of the remaining survivors as well. We watch through until the end. We record every match. We evaluate the perks used. It is easy to tell when a killer is inexperienced. There are a ton of things that tell you immediately when you are playing against a player that is inexperienced. I enjoy playing killer more than survivor, but the reason we even bother to turn the game on is to play together.
We didn't use DH or DS, so other than dropping Iron Will from my build our playstyles haven't changed much. For my build, except when doing challenges, I am currently using Borrowed Time, Lithe, Lucky Break, and Quick and Quiet. My son uses Borrowed Time, Lithe, Fast Track, and Stake Out. I regularly escape chases after the killer finally gets the first hit in, and my son regularly loops the killer for a gen or two each match. Unfortunately, that means he regularly gets targeted for camping and tunneling. We aren't here looking for tips. We know how to play and play well. I am here to warn the developers that they made a mistake, and hope that they actually listen to the facts instead of the people that just want to exploit the situation, so that the game doesn't die before they take action.
This past month we have recorded ~200 matches, besides the 15 farmers or inexperienced players we are counting since the patch, we only faced farming/new players about once every fifty games. It is clear that the some of the killer player base is trying to maliciously skew the numbers so that BHVR cannot look at their data and see clearly that the survival rate just got obliterated.
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For the thread: As an update, we have played another 11 matches.
I played a match as Trapper (I main Myers but usually play Trapper for challenges) where I killed all four survivors on first hook, with two gens done, and all I was trying to do was damage six gens. I brought no add-ons or offerings, just Discordance, Overcharge, Brutal Strength, Tinkerer. It was the easiest game I've ever played as killer.
There were a lot of farmers this morning, letting players go after getting several hooks and/or a couple kills to skew the numbers and keep their matchmaking lower. I have no idea how BHVR has any hope to see this in their data, unless they listen to the players like me that are telling them that a lot of the killers are cheating to skew the data so that BHVR can't see things clearly.
The totals now stand at 45 matches (1 killer, 44 survivor).
One clear win (on RCPD - killer killed one player with NOED), 15 farms/new players/killer disconnects, and 29 total losses. We reached Iridescent Grades doing this. Talk about failing upwards.
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I feel there is no need to continue to input data here. I've given our point of view and it hasn't changed. To reiterate the situation. Escape perks were nerfed. Camping, tunneling, and most importantly killer speeds were buffed. Gen repair speeds were also slowed down. All combined broke the game. I like the first four changes (though some of them went a little bit too far), and I think it might be possible to make the game work without the ten second increase to the gen timer. It isn't working right now, at least not for us and the 58 other survivors that played with us in those losing matches the past three days.
I'm sure you'll forgive me for being sceptical of a "source: dude trust me" on the inexperienced killers point, but perhaps it doesn't matter all that much.
The point isn't to offer you tips, friend, I think you misunderstood! The point was to check that you're aware the game has changed and you can't go into it expecting that the way you played before would necessarily work for you going forward. Chase was buffed on the killer side, after all, you need to be more efficient with your looping.
But let's say that you are efficient with your looping. The fact that there's no guarantee your teammates were efficient at looping before, since they didn't need to be as on point prior to this patch, means they are going to have an adjustment period and that means your games are going to suffer as a result. Until people get used to the combination of not having the same tools as before, and needing to be more careful in chase, you should expect to see more losses.
That's why it being so early is relevant. It is too soon to say if ten extra seconds on generators, or any other individual change from the patch, actually is too much because the playerbase hasn't had time to all adjust to it. Besides, even if it is, one person is a poor sample size.
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Same here- there's an adjustment period, as there ought to be, but the games are still fun and fresh!
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To change the meta.
In any game where it's applicable, you would do that by nerfing the commonly used things and buffing the uncommonly used things. By extension, if afterwards the commonly used thing is still worth running over other options, you've clearly failed.
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@caramelpudding said:
Hm, yes true... I guess I should have called this thread different, sorry, I wasn't thinking lol! I changed the title of the threat, I hope it's easier to understand what I mean now.
So, let me try rephrase it: The biggest problem is the condition to rise or fall in MMR: killing or escaping. Does this make more sense now?
Now again, I think the overall performance in a match should decide in what MMR you get put. Like, maybe having 2 Iri emblems, one gold emblem and one bronze emblem is in the "Final Emblem" or "Average Emblem" a Gold or Silver? Maybe Iri and Gold let you rise, Silver stay in the MMR you are in and Bronze lets you fall in MMR? I truly have no idea, but something like this? Anything so the whole actions of a person in the game is taken into account and not only an escape or kill.
Oh- I see, yes, this is another MMR system thread.
There's a lot of reasons why MMR systems like the one in Dead By Daylight only look at your winrate. It's the most consistent, reliable proxy for skill at the game that there is- add too many requirements and you get the disaster of the emblem system's matchmaking, where you have to play in a super arbitrary way in order to raise your rank. Now, that was a problem also because it wasn't very hard, but it still isn't a good idea.
Having the MMR based on your winrate is the expected normal, there's no reason why this game should be any different. If players are taking it as some kind of weird incentive, that isn't the MMR system's fault-- BHVR just need to make it more clear that you're not supposed to be actively gunning for maxing your MMR.
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I'm not sure how you could redefine the win in this game, though.
Since its inception its always been really firmly defined- to win as survivor you escape, to win as killer you get at least three kills. You'd have to really dramatically change the game at its core to change those win conditions, I'm genuinely not sure how you'd even go about changing that, or what it'd be changed to.
Are you thinking there'd be some kind of new mechanic, or? How would you make it clear the win condition is different?
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By and large I think these perk changes are mostly decent, a few I would have some minor quibbles with but nothing that I'd want to devote time to in a response that's sure to be lengthy enough on its own lol. I feel the same way about the killer changes too-- I honestly don't think Nurse should have range or recharge addons at all given how strong her power is without those benefits, but reducing what she has down to something more manageable is a perfectly legitimate angle. Making her attacks special attacks is also long overdue.
Blight and Spirit I don't have the knowledge to speak on confidently, but I do know people want those addons nerfed so attempting to tackle them at all is another plus. Good stuff there!
Now, on to the meat of the suggestions- the new mechanics and basekit changes!
I'll tackle them in order here:
Breakable Windows: I am somewhat wary about making this a blanket thing for all non-tile windows (by which I assume you mean things like Haddonfield house windows?), because I think some of those are probably going to be a problem if they're broken. If nothing else it'd do pretty dramatic damage to a survivor's options on Lery's, haha. Still, the idea of it is pretty sound so it could easily be something folded into maps alongside non-tile windows like breakable walls were- I'd like to see it tested before I sign off but the idea is interesting.
Perseverance: A basekit version of DS isn't the worst idea in the world, but I am somewhat concerned as to how easy it would be to abuse. With the Conspicuous Actions change it'd be mediated a little, but I'd also want to suggest adding entering a locker to the list, just so people can't force a stun aggressively. Once again, it'd need testing, but the idea isn't inherently ridiculous-- DS only hits you if you're tunnelling in the majority of cases, and this would be no different.
Ties of Light: If I'm reading this right, this is basically a budget Kindred for solo queue players, right? An indication at steady intervals as to where your teammates are, so you can make an informed decision? I'm not against it but I'd rather just see the teammate aura of Kindred made basekit, and have the perk also show the killer's aura. I respect attempting to give Kindred use still, but I think it's one of those perks that should be used less often than it is, because it's a perk that people feel they need instead of one they want to bring.
The Relic: This one I need a bit more explanation on- is this a static object, or an item you can pick up? Either way, I'm not quite sure what the idea is supposed to be-- anti-camp, I think? Something to force the killer away from the hook so they can chase the Relic's holder and get generator blocking, in exchange for letting survivors get a save? If that's the goal, it's interesting, but needs a little more refining. My assumption is that the skill checks are meant to be what gives the killer some direction to move towards, but I don't like that one player can mess up their teammates by picking up the Relic when they don't expect it- instead of that, how would you feel about the Relic's holder having their aura revealed to the killer? That way the killer is pushed towards the place where they'd get clear and obvious value, and there's a little risk associated with being the one that holds the Relic.
If I've misunderstood any of that do let me know!
Overall, I think these ideas have legs. With some refining they'd be quite viable.
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How can you be sure that the killers you brand as "inexperienced/new" actually were? Did you check their hourcounts?
Also, what adaptations did you make to adjust for the changes to the game in the current patch- your perk builds, your overall strategies, the approach you took to various situations?
Wanting to use facts is admirable, so let's continue that by making sure that the extremely limited data pool we have is as accurate as possible. One person is already a very poor representative sample, after all, especially so soon after the change.
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@DragonMasterDarren said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3078677#Comment_3078677
The main reason why i think OTR sucks as a anti-tunnel perk even when it works is down to 2 things, the buffs to killer-basekit, and the nerf to Iron Will and survivor-basekit
when the killer hits you and OTR goes off they'll still be able to see you, compare this to DS where the killer was animation locked, and could be blinded with a flashlight, then add old IW onto that and you would practically disappear if the killer wasn't running Bloodhound, the killer can very easily track you down after OTR goes off, and since they know where you're going they can either ignore you, meaning the perk actually worked, or chase you, making the perk completely wasted, this is compounded by the faster swing recovery and break speed, as well as the decreased distance you make after getting hit, as well as the fact that IW is basically useless now, and even if OTR does work and the killer does decide to leave you alone, you still have to mend afterwards, wasting time, old and even current DS didn't have that problem, as soon as it was used, you could escape and get back to doing the objective, with OTR you have to waste more time getting rid of deep wounds before you can actually be useful to the team again
It wouldn't be nearly as bad if it didn't give you deep wound and if DS was actually useful, but unfortunately this patch basically buffed tunnelling and made the only 2 perks that are meant to discourage it either worthless or awful at it's job
Wait, why is the nerf to Iron Will relevant? OTR gives you the old Iron Will effect, you don't need to pair it with IW. You already have it.
As for your example, if they chase you the perk is not wasted because it's already done its job. It's already prevented you from going down immediately, and it's given you the opportunity to play out a regular chase with the killer, albeit with Deep Wound. That's if they hit you straight away, too, which isn't a guarantee; most killers are gonna wait out the five second basekit Endurance, which means there's a decent chance you've reached a loop and can eke out a little more time before that hit even connects.
Yes, the post-hit sprint is shorter, but that doesn't stop this from being a far better anti-tunnel perk than DS ever was. It actually lets you play out the chase normally, instead of just losing the chase and getting to stun the killer briefly.
This patch did not buff tunnelling. That take is very very silly.
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@DragonMasterDarren said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3078612#Comment_3078612
Shame that the so called "Anti-Tunnel" perk does basically nothing to actually discourage tunneling
best case scenario you'll get a regular chase with the killer after it goes off, worst case you give the killer free STBFL stacks
again, in what world does a "Anti-Tunnel" perk not only not discourage tunnelling, but also gives them free perk value?
Your best case scenario is it literally working as an anti-tunnel tool. That's what they're supposed to do.
"A regular chase with the killer" is exactly what an anti-tunnel tool aims to achieve. Tunnelling isn't a problem just because you're getting chased again too quickly, it's a problem because post-unhook you're at your most vulnerable and have the least agency in preventing a down- which is what OTR fixes, because at minimum you get hit and get to reposition afterwards, and if you have some LoS breakers you can use it to its fullest effect too.
As for STBFL, it's not special, any M1 perk will proc off any Endurance effect, including the one you get as basekit. That's a weird argument I don't fully understand.
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...Off The Record is for anti-tunnel, not bodyblocking.
You're right, if you bodyblock with it you're defenceless. Don't do that.
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To be fair, it's not so much that those things are more important, it's probably more that they're closer to being finished.
That being said, I would like to see them revisit the decision to delay solo queue information changes if they are able to. This patch has been a fantastic first start towards revitalising the game, and while solo queue aren't any worse off than before, they weren't starting in a particularly healthy spot so they're still in need of some assistance.