dugman
dugman
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/353675/knock-out-discussion
I think i recall peanut making a remark for on basic/special attack for knockout. i think I remember him saying something lines of changing it to not work on huntress hatchets. this is very distant memory.
Knock out encourages leaving survivors on the floor and tries to incentive the killer to bleed out the survivor by denying the survivor the ability to see teammates on the floor. there is just few problems that make it ineffective at the job
1) SWF can still see survivors that are on the floor by doing call out, so premise of the perk does not work. It only works for soloq but it does not work too well because 16 meters is still decent detection range to still find the survivor. It is bad at keeping survivors on the floor.
2) The recovery time and slower crawling speed for 30 seconds are irrelevant bonuses.
3) Hooking survivors is faster death then slugging them. There is no chance the survivor ever dies to 4 minute bleed out with or without this perk in normal dbd gameplay. Slugging is relevant without the perk, so why waste a perk slot for unrewarding action?
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slugging is weird in current dbd because survivor do not expect to get slugged, so they do not bring perks to counter slugging because slugging is uncommon. The reason why its uncommon is because its unrewarding for "most" killers to slug survivors when 4 survivors are alive. they don't get rewards for downing the survivor because survivor is almost never at risk to dying to bleed out timer. Its also difficult for weak killers to slug because their time to down is not very good. as a result of no risk of dying to the bleed out timer, SWF can abuse slugging as anti-tunnel mechanic through body blocking where as soloq rarely body-blocks and often plays a more 1vs1 killer lone-wolf gen rush style. Survivors are more at risk to dying to 3 hook condition more so then slugging. this is why survivors used to bring anti-tunnel perks and anti-camp perks to slowdown the killer's chances in winning through 3 hook win-condition.
I would say that say that tunneling, camping and slugging each facilitate each other in helping the killer win if the uses the strategies correctly at the right time. Its big circular relationship that is somewhat complicated to explain. Tunneling is strongest strategy in dbd because if you kill one survivor early into the game, you reduce survivor's repair and healing efficiency by 100%(25% out of 100%) which is very significant. The earlier this happens, the more significant it is. Camping is strong because if a hook is regressed for 60 seconds, you need 1 less chase to kill the survivor making them easier to tunnel out of the game. Now we go onto the most complicate part of dbd which is slugging. Slugging is more of double-edge sword. Slugging facilitates camping because one of risks of camping hooks is that survivors can ignore the hook and rush generators, however this is only true if survivor is ahead of the killer in the generator objective. if you hook one person and then intercept the unhooker and down them, its often better to leave the unhooker on the floor and to push the person on hook to second stage because it becomes easier to tunnel the 2nd hook person out of the game. Certain killers excel at this type of camp-slug type gameplay. Tunneling survivors out of the game and successful creating 3vs1 makes slugging a lot easier to achieve because if you are successful in downing two survivors at once in 3vs1. you can often find the 3rd survivor and chase them which leaves no survivors available to pick up remaining survivors. If last remaining survivor tries to pick up a 95% recovery survivor, the killer can re-slug the survivor by hitting the downing survivor unless one of survivors has the perk Soulguard. Soulguard is like borrow time for slugging although I would say Soulguard is a bit weak in term of duration in comparison to borrow time(8 second vs 20 second BT). In any case, if you are successful in knock out the 3 remaining survivors, you can 1 hook them. Some killers excel/rely on this finisher-type slugging play-style(Twins, Oni etc.). In a 4vs1, slugging for bleed out is too risky. If the survivor team is strong, it will almost always backfire because the killer will lose hook-states for not hooking the survivor. Its a lot safer to hook in 4vs1. The survivor team needs to play very poorly for slugging to be successful in 4vs1. This is why slugging is double-edge sword.
I would say circular relationship between these killer actions go something along this. Slugging -> Camping -> Tunneling -> Slugging. Slugging facilitates camping where camping facilitates tunnelling where tunneling facilitates slugging. The explanation for why this works this way can be seen in paragraph 2.
Knock out is a perk that encourages bleeding survivors out, but the way it does this is ineffective and winning through bleed out for killer is ineffective strategy. Its same reason why nobody uses Third seal. Gimmick perks that do not work vs strong teams and at best work vs weak soloq survivors that have poor teamwork and really bad at looping. personally I think blindness should be debuff that prevents the killer aura from being read and it should not block aura reading from teammates. The whole slugging dynamic could use some tweaking to make the slugging gameplay more streamlined so that twin's gameplay loop is more streamlined. Currently not many players enjoy playing twins because slugging is too advanced for most killer players because how sharp the risk vs reward slugging is. This is why I think slugging needs more gradual rewards so that it is a bit less sharp.
there is also that problem where survivors have sentiment that slugging is boring, unfun and toxic. perhaps it would be interesting to look at why these sentiments toward the killer slugging are there and what could be improved to make slugging less boring, more fun and less toxic towards the survivor. For me personally, the only part i dislike about slugging gameplay on killer side is chain-slugging. this is where you are slugged by the killer and a teammate picks you up and the killer immediately downs you and re-slug you. this is unfun for surivivor because the survivor has little counter-play if they are being camped when slugged. I could see survivors getting base-kit soulguard similar to base-kit borrow time to make this a bit less effective and soulguard being buffed to say 20 seconds. Slugging needs to be seen less as negative towards survivor and be more widely accepted killer gameplay like hooking & camping is.
On a tangent, I use Third Seal not because it helps with slugging but because Windows of Opportunity is the second most used survivor perk just under Dead Hard at the moment and Third Seal hard counters it as well as every other aura perk. The fact that Blindness helps with slugging is a side bonus honestly, to me the main benefit is it typically totally cancels multiple survivor perks per game.
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@not_requested49 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3255284#Comment_3255284
You M1 them so they gain bleedout progress more easier since their teammates will have a harder time finding them, thereby allowing more time for the bleedout timer to progress so you can kill them later with a special attack
Sorry I'm really not following what you're trying to do. So you're saying you do a basic attack to Knock Out someone, they bleed for a while, and maybe when they're really close to bleeding out entirely much later you try and knock them down with a special attack instead?
... I don't get it. Why go through all that effort? Even if you're trying to bleed them out, why not just do another basic attack at the end? Why would it have to be a special attack at that point? Is it just a meme thing?
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@not_requested49 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3255280#Comment_3255280
I never said it did? I mean if you're going for those types of kills
Here's what I mean if you're still confused: https://www.reddit.com/r/deadbydaylight/comments/y0lp7z/a_collection_of_unconventional_kills/
I'm still not following. Say you throw someone with a Wesker Bound for instance and leave them slugged afterward. Knock Out didn't trigger because it doesn't work with Bound, only with basic attacks. So why would you use Knock Out if you're intentionally planning to go out of your way to do that, it wouldn't do anything?
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@not_requested49 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/353675/knock-out-discussion
It's a bad perk.. if you're going for hook kills
Otherwise if you're going for unconventional kills like wesker throw kills, bear trap kill, zombie kills, etc then it's a staple in the build and great as a backup if your third seal was cleansed
I'm a little confused, Knock Out doesn't trigger on any of those special abilities you mentioned, it only works with basic attacks. Why would it be a staple for Trapper or Wesker?
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@almofan1001 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3254873#Comment_3254873
When survivors are near a pallet (any pallet), they can time their dead hard in a way that guarantees them either a pallet drop or a dead hard proc because:
1 Either killer swings during dead hard animation and procs dead hard
2 Killer waits it out but then the survivor drops a pallet and stuns killer
If a survivor does it properly, there is NO counterplay, with exception of a few killers. The killer cannot "just wait it out" because if they wait it out, survivor can drop a pallet. So they're forced into a lose-lose situation. This is the biggest problem with Dead Hard and how it feels so unfair.
And while it requires more skill than old dead hard to perform this move, it doesn't require nearly enough to justify a "lose-lose" scenario for a killer. There is no counterplay from the killer side, they have to rely on survivors messing up. The timing window is way too generous for survivors that they don't really need much skill to do this.
They can implement a nerf to this by preventing survivors from dropping a pallet after dead-hard animation for X seconds. There are other ways to fix this too, and honestly, I don't care as long as this mechanic is gone.
Well if they reduce the sprint time after the Dead Hard blocks a hit then that reduces the distance the survivor gets in the scenario you're describing.
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@almofan1001 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3254786#Comment_3254786
To clarify, I’m not saying Dead Hard isn’t still a problem, it probably is. I’m saying that it’s not as much of a problem as it was.
For a perk that has been unchanged for 5 years, and was picked 70-80 % - the standards for nerfing it is REALLY REALLY low. Ruin literally gets butchered completely into a dead perk and no one bats an eye. DH should be at a MINIMUM similar pick rate as all other exhaustion perks. Reworking this perk completely into a different thing is also fine considering latency issues, and the general unfun nature of this old and new perk when used at pallets/windows.
Personally I wouldn’t be against shortening the duration of the sprint burst it gives when it absorbs a hit. Removing that altogether might be overkill but making it give a little less distance could be ok.
There is a lot of skill in baiting an M1 attack where both sides have the ability to react - and the sprint burst that you gain after successful bait should stay the same. It simply needs the pallet invulnerability mechanic to be removed - where a reaction is on the survivor's side and not on the killer's. If they remove this mechanic, DH is a good perk (although still annoying in some cases, but I'll take that over "eat pallet or eat dead hard")
I'm not quite sure what you mean by "remove the pallet invulnerability mechanic". If you mean you think the survivor should "lose ties" at pallets I'm not sure that's possible since that's a latency issue where the killer sees they got a hit on their screen and the survivor sees they got a pallet stun on their screen. What are the details of the change you want to see happen regarding pallets and Dead Hard?
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@cburton311 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/353622/its-a-shame-they-abandoned-sadako
I wouldn't hold your breath, Oryno currently has one of the kill rates at all MMR and high MMR.
That doesn’t mean they won’t eventually do a pass on her, prior to the 2022 roadmap they had semi regular procedure for reviewing new characters after release so it’s quite possible they’ll get back to them in 2023. (Or not if they have big projects, hard to know until they announce their 2023 plans.)
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As a general statement it’s ok for a killer effect to give the survivors an advantage so long as the benefit to the killer more than outweighs it. You can maybe have some interesting risk versus reward decisions if the killer can get a bit payoff by giving the survivors a short term gain.
That said though I agree the banners giving a speed boost probably isn’t needed.
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@almofan1001 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3254773#Comment_3254773
We're talking about averages here. Sure you can't dead hard over a trapper's traps anymore and neither you can against deathslinger (idk why you use those arguments considering no one plays them and you can beat them easily without DH, but w/e)
But if you bait an attack over a lot of other killers, ex: huntress hatchet, nurse blink, wesker dash, yada yada the list goes very long here - you literally gain more value than using old DH. So in baiting an M1 attack - yes it's overwhelmingly better than old DH on average.
This leaves us to the pallet scenario - I've already told this in my other replies, but you get X amount of invulnerability when using the new DH (similar to the old DH). If survivors master that timing, they get more value compared to the old DH because they get a sprint burst and a saved pallet.
Does it take more skill to master that timing? Yes
Does it take sufficiently more skill so we can say that perk is balanced? Absolutely no
For DH to be properly balanced, the uncounterable pallet invulnerability scenario where the killer has to rely on the survivor messing up needs to BE GONE.
Every other part of DH is fine, if I got baited by DH when I could've just waited a bit - perfectly fine IMO, well played to the survivor. But the pallet invulnerability lose-lose scenario needs to disappear asap.
To clarify, I’m not saying Dead Hard isn’t still a problem, it probably is. I’m saying that it’s not as much of a problem as it was. It’s pick rate is still high but also down and a bunch of the scenarios where it used to work it doesn’t now. (And as far as I know it still has the annoying thing of cheaters being able to auto-trigger it which probably also boosts its usage a bit.)
Personally I wouldn’t be against shortening the duration of the sprint burst it gives when it absorbs a hit. Removing that altogether might be overkill but making it give a little less distance could be ok.
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@almofan1001 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3254766#Comment_3254766
I didn't ignore them, I mentioned multiple times that the new DH is very much weaker than the old DH when using the "use DH to get to window scenario". In all other scenarios, it is stronger, the downsides are offset by upsides easily assuming survivors can actually abuse this perk (which a lot of them can do now)
Except it's not "better in every scenario", that's objective wrong. You can't Dead Hard Deathslinger's spear. If you're under Deep Wounds it doesn't work. You can't Dead Hard over Traps. You can't Dead Hard through a body block.
It's better in SOME scenarios, not EVERY scenario.
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@almofan1001 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3254734#Comment_3254734
Why do you ignore the new strengths new dead hard gives while focusing only on negatives compared to old DH? It's so disingenuous.
It's as if everyone forgot that it gives a sprint burst and a saved pallet lmao. And that works even better compared to old dead hard when baiting M1s, not just pallet scenarios.
I'm not the one being disingenuous, you're the one ignoring the various downsides of the new version of the perk and focusing solely on the one aspect that is sometimes better.
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@almofan1001 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3254676#Comment_3254676
The pick rate massively suggests otherwise, friend. It's much more used than other exhaustion perks.
So what's the next angle? Why is the community using this perk overwhelmingly even though all other exhaustion perks are just as good now?
Dead Hard used to have a 40%+ pick rate. Now its pick rate is 25-30%, it's gone down by 1/3. Yes it's still the most popular perk but the gap between it and other perks narrowed.
And while the new Dead Hard is obviously quite good, it is weaker in some respects. Not just because it's harder to use to lunge for distance to reach a vault or pallet, but also because the new version of Dead Hard doesn't work against killer effects which aren't attacks (e.g. Trapper's Traps, Deathslinger's spear, Doctor's shocks, getting through body blocks, etc) and also doesn't work if you're already in Deep Wounds (the old one had no such restriction, so for instance if Legion put you in Deep Wounds and dropped out of Feral Frenzy to keep chasing you then your old Dead Hard could still work but the new one can't.)
So yes, Dead Hard is still very popular. But it's also simultaneously used less than before and on the whole is probably slightly weaker than before.
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I would be totally down for custom emotes as Rift rewards for various killers. Ghost Face doing the head cock and wave for instance would be great. 🙂
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@Bot_Salvo88 said:
I think that nobody will ever use them. I see barely anyone using the 2 there are already as survivor.
I see survivors using the point emotes all the time.
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Because Windows of Opportunity and other aura perks are so popular I’m currently always running Third Seal plus Undying since it hard counters all of them assuming I don’t get unlucky and they break both totems right away. (Which is annoying when that happens but it fortunately doesn’t happen that often.) I think people underestimate how good Blindness is in the current meta, survivors are running Windows in particular for example quite a lot even in swfs because it’s effective not to mention things like Bond or Kindred or Wiretap, etc, so you’re often denying the use of multiple survivor perks with one condition. I also use Fearmonger because it both counters Exhaustion perks and is a further backup for Blindness as well.
All that said, though, if I only had one slot I probably wouldn’t use Third Seal since it would be a little too risky for my taste to have it just be out on a single totem. I might just stick with Fearmonger for the Exhaustion and at least a little Blindness instead, or just go with some generic slowdown like Pain Resonance since that’s just broadly useful. 🤷♂️
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@knell said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3253869#Comment_3253869
As it is currently stated in both the game tutorial and in their official webpage, for survivors, 'Escaping the trial' is their win condition. Nowhere does it say anything like, 'Have 2 or more survivors escape the trial to win.' Would it be a better game if that was the case (like in most many vs one asymmetrical games)? Possibly - but that isn't what it is currently. Which is why I asked, "Have BHVR ever discussed the possibility of changing the wincon of the game?" I made it a point to emphasize that the MMR doesn't determine the game's win condition - in fact, the win condition determines how the MMR is calculated. Like I stated, for MMR to accurately reflect the players' ratings, they usually just go the values reflected by the wincon. I'm just curious if BHVR found a way around it to demonstrate better accuracy somehow, or whether they are just willing to loosen their accuracy to appease the playerbase, as well as their contradictory end-game design.
The problem is the devs have never actually clearly defined the win condition for the survivor side. Sometimes they act like it's every person for themselves, sometimes they act like the survivors are supposed to win or lose as a group. It's an underlying base issue behind a few problems in the game like some people sandbagging or ragequitting because "they" lost even though the rest of the survivors might be ok and could all escape, or people who think "pips" are the goal or bloodpoints or what-have-you.
As far as MMR goes, though, they're sort of shifting the win metric from "individuals escaping" to "how many survivors escaped". Personally I think it would maybe be even better if it literally was "If 3-4 survivors escape all the survivor MMRs go up, and if only 0-1 escape they go down, with no change on 2 escapes". That would be even more crystal clear as a win/loss condition for the survivors as a whole then the "you still lost for MMR purposes but not by as much if others escape" type of thing. (Basically semi-cooperative game design is usually bad, DbD unfortunately isn't an exception.)
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Keep in mind MMR is about long term averages over strings of games. On average if you loop a killer all day you’ll escape more often than you don’t. MMR isn’t meant to address individual people being afk in specific matches, it’s meant to look at your averages over a lot of matches and get a ballpark bracket for the algorithm to pair you up,
That said I do think DbD suffers from not having a clearly defined win and loss condition for the match as a whole where it declares “You Win!” or “You Lose!” at the end. Instead it has all these weird scoring systems and metrics and the Entity telling you how it feels that day and this annoying semi-cooperative thing of “maybe the survivors win as a team but maybe not”. And while this MMR change is a step toward saying the survivors win or lose as a team the devs seem to be hedging their bets and saying “well they win or lose as a team but not really because it’s still all individual wins and losses.” I honestly think the game would have been better served as a whole if from the get go there was a crystal clear win/loss condition for the survivors as a group. It would have given them their objective MMR group win loss metric, plus it would also have helped mitigate some or the sandbagging and ragequitting and such from players who throw the game for everybody else simply because they got downed. It’s water under the bridge at this point though. 🤷♂️
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Just to break it down, when you first play a new killer character you start at a below average rating (I don’t know the number but something like 600-800 where the average is 1000 I think). If you kill someone your rating goes up, and if they escape out the gate it goes down. (I think hatches are neutral but I’m not 100% positive.) The higher the rating of the person you kill the more your rating goes up, and the higher the rating of someone who escapes the more your rating goes down. Also the devs said something about the first kill being worth more than the second and third because the system assumes that once one survivor dies it’s easier to kill others. Finally initially your rating goes up or down more to try and get you closer to your approximate accurate bracket quickly and then after a few games it settles down to smaller fluctuations.
The devs also announced this month that they’re adjusting that system so rather than your MMR going up or down every kill and escape it will go up or down based on how many survivors escape as a whole. That way if one survivor runs a killer all game and helps everybody else get out then all the survivors go up in ratings including the runner. It’s a step toward treating the survivors as an actual team for purposes of winning or losing (which is good in my opinion!)
Note that the rating systems is pretty decent, if everybody’s MMR is close the game tends to be close. But the matchmaking algorithm sometimes ignores MMR altogether in the interest of time when there’s nobody available in a given player’s range for a match or when someone dodges a lobby in progress. A lot of mismatches have to do with that time constraint as well as swfs whose members are widely disparate ratings.
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@Pukenplag said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3252879#Comment_3252879
I always laugh when in p2w arguments people use original paid characters as free to play characters. THEY ARE NOT FREE TO PLAY.
Considering the current rate we are getting new characters, a new player would NEVER be able to unlock everyone without spending like 12 hours a day playing.
In your case, you used 7 perks locked behind either a paywall or a tedious grind. That means 63k shards for their respective characters.
That's a whopping 245 hours worth of gameplay. 245 hours of ACTUAL gameplay, not staying in menus or anything. And that is not counting the actual grind for bp that everyone has to face.
Meanwhile, someone who just pays the money will need 245 hours less to get the meta perks.
And let's not talk about how I didn't even count the fact that the meta will change, maybe causing those 63k shards you grinded for to mo even give you a good loadout anymore.
I have literally every killer and got all the unlicensed ones with shards playing about 30 minutes a day or so. And my nephew got Legion after just a few weeks using shards. Your 12 hour a day estimate is way off.
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Only 6/20 of the best survivor perks are available without purchasing the DLC, and merely 3/20 of the best killer perks are available without DLC.
I'm not sure what perk lists you're going by for those stats but out of curiosity I'll use Nightlight's top 10 pick rates and assume the most picked perks there mostly line up with the ones you think are the "best".
Survivor Perks
- Dead Hard - David King (not licensed)
- Windows - Kate (not licensed)
- Circle of Healing - Mikaela (not licensed)
- Adrenaline - Meg (not licensed)
- Prove Thyself - Dwight (not licensed)
- Lithe - Feng (not licensed)
- Off the Record - Zarina (not licensed)
- Kindred - generic
- Sprint Burst - Meg (not licensed)
- Resilience - generic
So literally all the top 10 survivor perks are either generic or can be gotten on characters which are unlockable with free shards.
Killer Perks
- BBQ and Chili - Leatherface (licensed)
- Scourge Hook Pain Resonance - Artist (not licensed)
- Jolt - generic
- Call of Brine - Sadako (licensed)
- Save the Best for Last - Meyers (licensed)
- Lethal Pursuer - Nemesis (licensed)
- Corrupt Intervention - Plague (not licensed)
- Eruption - Nemesis (licensed)
- No Way Out - Trickster (not licensed)
- Hex: NOED - generic
So five of the top 10 killer perks are in licensed killers that require money to buy (Nemesis has two of them). The rest are either generic or on characters that can be unlocked with shards.
Setting aside the fact that you don't actually need ANY of the above perks to win, and even assuming for the sake of argument you get a significant advantage using these over other perks, the fact is you can literally get all of them totally for free by unlocking the corresponding character with shards. It costs 9000 shards to unlock a character and if you play a few matches a night you'll get 9000 shards in about a month give or take (That's about how much I play and I have no problem saving up shards for all the killers that can be bought with them.) And that's also ignoring that you can spend shards at the shrine to unlock perks as they become available there (which I've also done occasionally for my survivors.) So personally I don't think any of that falls under the category "pay to win" since you can get almost all this stuff for free over time and it's debatable whether you even need any of it at all to "win". It's more like "pay for more variety" than "pay to win".
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
People really do make the mistake of thinking that MMR is actual Skilled Based Matchmaking, when MMR is more Matchmaking than anything Skill Based.
In all seriousness MMR needs a complete rework, I know BHVR spent a long time on it, and they dont want to get rid of it, and I am definitely going to be stepping on the toes of BHVR by saying this, but MMR is awful in so many ways.
MMR is fine, when the MMRs are actually close the match is close. This was evidenced for instance back when they were doing testing this year on a bunch of settings and the closest (some say "sweatiest") day was the one that had the matchmaking algorithm following the ratings the most strictly and the most obvious mismatches were the days they turned MMR off or used the Grades for the ratings.
The main cause of mismatches isn't the ratings being off, it's the algorithm ignoring them altogether in the interest of time. Players with really high ratings or really low ratings don't have a ton of opponents available for matches and eventually just get paired in the first available slot regardless of who's there. And if someone dodges a lobby, for example, it's even worse because the system then drags in whoever it can find so it doesn't have the other four players in that lobby sitting around waiting around forever for a replacement.
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@RaSavage42 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3252687#Comment_3252687
Oh ok then... fair enough
With the way people talk about it I thought it was used more (same with Eruption)
Well they're both used a lot more than average (the average is 3-4%). I think Overcharge is used a little less than Call of Brine because it's riskier, if the survivors don't have a problem hitting its skill check and if they can typically stabilize a kicked generator within about 12 seconds or so then Overcharge is actually worse than kicking a gen with no perk at all. It's only better than Call of Brine when survivors fail its checks and let it sit on gens a really long time.
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@RaSavage42 said:
Thanks... And I am fine now... It's been a year and a half since it happened
And Thanks for putting it up... it helps a lot
Funny enough I don't see Overcharge up there... But Call Of Brine and Eruption are up there
Lethal Pursuer doesn't surprise me much
Jolt is kinda surprising though
Yeah, Overcharge just missed being in the top ten, it's 8.8% pick rate.
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I don't know why but I love in the Samnation videos that Plague only talks in gibberish song lyrics ("Da ba Dee Da ba Di!", "Sashay Shante!") 😄
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Sorry I'm not quite following where you want these icons to appear?
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@RaSavage42 said:
I would say.... the game remains the same so it's more of if you've got the mental side to play again
The Knight has bugs (but that is normal at this point)
The map is "miscolored" (it's too red to see scratch marks apparently)
The new perks are decent but we'll see how long that lasts
The perk changes went through but it's still Gen regression VS. Second chance (with more players opting to go for SWF play... Solo's aren't as good -From what I've seen-)
BT became basekit (I think at 10 seconds)
Killer recover faster from hits, DS was nerfed to 3 seconds, Killers can Kick faster (but not much)
@dugman What's the perk stats again? (I can't remember them -stroke happened last year and I can't remember a lot-)
Does that sound fun to you???
Sorry to hear about the stroke. 😟 Anyway, sounds like you're asking what the pick rates are for perks? Just based on Nightlight, the top ten survivor and killer perks over the last two weeks are below
Note that the top most used perk numbers are still lower after the rework than the top perks before it. For instance, Dead Hard had a 41% pick rate before the rework on Nightlight versus its 29.6% now. Likewise Barbeque and Chili had a 40% pick rate before the rework versus its 24% now. So basically there's obviously still top perks that are a lot more popular than average but the gap between the very top and the average did narrow.
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I vote for hanging them all from the trees in the forest maps like the dolls from Blair Witch Project. 🙂
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@Gandor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/353265/how-are-the-custom-match-bots-looking-so-far
A friend of mine is into bots in all the games. He said the bots are actually fine. They are decent. They don't do really stupid things and actually try to juke you. Yet they are far from perfect. One thing is, that they are supposed to only midvault all the time. The other thing is, that they are not properly aware of killer powers - so even if they are likely to drop pallets on you, they will just not do that if you are freddy and use fake pallets - because they "don't see those pallets".
But I did not play with them personnaly
Huh, that’s a little odd if they only medium vault, if that’s true I wonder if it’s a bug?
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In terms of how much I enjoy playing them, Dredge and Sadako are two of my favorite killers since I really like both stealth and teleportation. I think I give Dredge the edge here a bit simply because of their aesthetic but they’re both a lot of fun. I think Sadako is consistently underrated in effectiveness, I personally put her around Wraith’s bucket in that department, and the dev stats and stats on Nightlight also kind of back me up on that since she consistently has above average kill rates at all brackets when you look at the data.
Wesker is fun but like I said I enjoy stealth and teleportation and Wesker is more of a pure in your face chase killer. In terms of effectiveness I put him fairly high, slightly better than Demogorgon overall, mainly because he has enough indirect gen slowdown from his infections to keep survivors running around wasting time combined with his Bound being able to get around corners and go surprisingly long distances in a single attack. And again, I think the numbers back me up.
My gut impression of Knight so far is he’ll be about on par with Artist with strong zone control but no map mobility to speak of. He also looks like one of the more complicated killers to really master so I think it’ll be a little bit before we see true Knight mains that are using him to his full potential. (For instance almost all the games I watched yesterday with him the Knight players were just going max distance on patrols every single time and never canceled old patrols that weren’t useful which seems inefficient. To me it looks like most of the time you would want to drop quickly with little or no patrol to guard a tile you think a survivor will try and run back to when you flush them out or to drop a guard at a loop you’re already running to force a transition, a bit like how Artist chases people.)
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Just a hunch but I think the Knight will end up being on par with Artist (wherever people think she is in their tier lists). His power seems to be a bit better than hers at zone control since he can just quickly plop a guard down in the vicinity of a tile and survivors have to steer clear of it if they don't want to get flanked. And his guards aren't too shabby overall at flanking maneuvers since while a survivor can avoid a single guardian on its own they are going to have trouble avoiding the Knight himself if he's coming in from the other side. Also unlike, say, Artist's crows the guardians always do damage if they hit and the guardians can pull survivors out of lockers (which is hilarious to watch!) Also he has a bit of time savings in being able to quickly break things at a distance using the guardians. (They won't trigger gen kicking perks but they do still break gens and pallets which is useful in its own right, plus they can still offer some synergy with, say, Surveillance.)
All that said, Knight doesn't look great in terms of map mobility, and generally speaking the killers that have limited mobility don't tend to get into the higher tiers. He also doesn't have quite the long range detection potential that Artist has (although his Guardians do give him some short and mid-range detection by letting him see when they're activated to chase someone.) Additionally it's quite possible he'll be a little map dependent if the Guardians have difficulty dealing with certain areas like, say, multi-level areas on Haddenfield or Midwich, etc.
Finally I suspect that while survivors will get better at playing against him, it's also true that Knight seems to have a bit of a steeper learning curve than most killers so it'll probably be a little while before we actually see really strong Knight mains around. For instance, just watching a lot of streams, it looked like a bunch of people were always going the maximum distance on the patrols which seems pretty inefficient. There are definitely times where it's better to simply plop a Guardian down right near your spot with not much of a trail and let it guard a particular tile from that spot. Also I never saw anybody cancel Guardians who weren't doing anything useful by hitting the right mouse button, another potential time waster. So I'm definitely convinced most of the Knights we're seeing in these first day aren't actually reaching the full potential of his abilities yet.
Anyway that's just my guess so far, I think he'll turn out to be a good killer but not too much above that since mobility could hold him back.
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@thefallenloser said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3251101#Comment_3251101
I'm certain that's what his introduction was for, so he'll almost certainly be getting better over time, though I'm still quite disappointed that it seems as though The Legion won't get any sort of 4 man play in the future considering their concept.
Yeah, it would have been fun if Legion worked like this but water under the bridge at this point. 🤷♂️
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Just speculation on my part but I think they wanted to take advantage of their new bot pathing they were working on this year to make a killer that used bots as companions. I wouldn’t be that surprised if they leveraged parts of the custom bot programming to be able to program the Knight’s guardians.
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Some builds I think are fun
- I Hate Pallets! - Enduring, Brutal Strength, Fire Up, Spirit Fury. By the time some gens are done you just plow through pallets like you don’t care.
- I Hate Healing! - Coulrophobia, Unnerving Presence, Sloppy Butcher, Huntress Lullaby (or a variant combo). Basically it makes healing in your terror radius obnoxious.
- I Hate Items! - Hoarder, Franklin’s Demise, Overwhelming Presence, Distressing. Not the best build but still funny if the survivors keep picking them up over and over. 😄
- I Hate Boons! - Shattered Hope, Hex: Thrill of the Hunt, Hex: Pentimento, Hex: Undying. Watch as survivors spend a ridiculous amount of time trying to Boon your Hexes and they either just shift to Undying or you Shatter them and replace them with Pentimento. 🙂
- I Hate The Meta! - This is the build I run a lot now, all the perks in it specifically counter the most popular survivor perks in the current meta. Discordance (to counter Prove Thyself), Hex Third Seal (to counter Windows of Opportunity), Hex Undying (to help Third Seal stay up longer and also give you intel when someone is setting up a Circle of Healing on a dull totem), and Fearmonger (to counter Dead Hard and other exhaustion perks, plus additional Blindness for popular aura perks).
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Assuming it’s a Black Knight type killer It’ll be interesting to see what they do to differentiate themselves from Oni who’s also basically an evil knight more or less. Maybe they have a shield they can “block” pallet stuns with if they time it right, for instance, or maybe their sword has a long thrusting reach for lunges. 🤷♂️
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3249386#Comment_3249386
can simply vault over safe pallets at medium to long length loops to get a hit
Every time I have tried pallet vaulting a strong looper that understood good position, I never got close enough to get an m1 hit out of it. He has 12 second cooldown for both virulent bound charges and distanced travel is not that huge. I would not call his ability good map mobility.
I would say what carries wesker is his ability to dash hit survivors between loops and his 4vs1 infection. he could use some improvements on his cooldown and improvements to his pallet play. dropping strong safe pallet should not be impossible to mindgame with his ability. I still wish that he could vault pallets and use his 2nd bound after vaulting for more gameplay at dropped pallet. lower cooldown would also help. he is by no means bad, but could be better.
If Wesker were much better than he is right now he'd be too strong. I think you're underestimating the value of his infections and also underestimating his mobility and the value of his being able to get hits from across normally very safe pallets.
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I’m surprised they don’t just have everybody have all the characters and perks unlocked on the ptb automatically for testing purposes. Unless they specifically want to test something involving the bloodweb I don’t see a downside to it.
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I’m down with Spies having the Calm Spirits type effect. Also I wish they’d replace the explosion sound for the Spies notification with crow calls.
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@Grigerbest said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3249551#Comment_3249551
Yes, I agree with that.
But still in the case of my conversation with my friend, he's right. He has a pretty valid point.
The thing that worries me (I mentioned above), is that Behaviour in 2022 released only 1 free killer (Dredge), and 3! Licensed killers (Sadako, Wesker, Spoiler|Knight)
I really don't mind to spend money on a game that I like, but when the game is just rapidly snowing a "Pay to play" stuff on a players, with intend that this stuff is better than a free, It's going to lead to an pretty unhealthy scenarios. (Remember Blizzard?)
You're assuming the next killer (probably a Knight) isn't going to be available for shards. That may or may not be true but we don't know either way yet.
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Why isnt match making based on devotion levels?
Because beyond a small number of hours playtime is a terrible metric for matchmaking. Someone can have played Nurse for 100 hours and hardly anybody else and be extremely good at her and win just as much as someone who plays 30 different killers for 30 hours each. Plus there are diminishing returns on more and more play time, it’s not obvious how much better a 7000 hour player is than a 1000 or 2000 hour player.
Not to mention that devotion isn’t character specific for killers while the MMR system is. So for instance my Nurse and Huntress ratings are probably a lot lower than my ratings for, say, Doctor who I’m a lot better with since I don’t play those first two often enough to be consistent with their attacks.
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@Grigerbest said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3249465#Comment_3249465
Here the important part about my post=) :
"In terms of a characters (Survivors are not really a big thing about it, they're just skins): If you pay - you have a new character to play, this character may become your main, you can do much better with this character than original ones, you may have a better expirience or win more games with a "paid" character or even have more fun with (this is the exact reason, why I think it's pay to win)."
It's a clear pay to win case.=)
Or you may not do better with a dlc character than an original. Nurse is free with the game and one of the best killers if you play her a lot for instance. Huntress is pretty popular and also pretty decent, even Wraith does ok.
I think you’re confusing “pay to win” with “pay for variety”. You can definitely do just fine spending no money on the game. Not to mention even if you do want a new character you can unlock a lot of them for free at a rate or about one per month if you play a few matches a night.
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Pig “going ham”, I see what you did there. 😉
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@Sava18 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3249041#Comment_3249041
It's absolutely not the best metric and prestige is especially not the best metric. It takes like 50-75 hours of playtime max to get prestige 100 on a character, that could mean a 100 hour player spent another 75 hours getting prestige 100 on their favorite character. But the time metric falls off fast in terms of skill, if you are actually trying to learn how to play the game it shouldn't take very long to get the basics down. This game is not hard and yet players with 6000 hours will be mid tier in skill and a player with 600 hours will be high tier in skill. Performance is the best metric of skill, a total 8k hour survivor team can be intimidating but the amount of time's I've run through them like butter even though they run their best stuff is countless. Especially in this game where a good portion of player's play it like a party game with no intent to improve anything other than their loadout it means even less. So many variable's in every video game go into how much a player can improve and while time is a factor, it's not the best indicator. How much do people try in video game's overall, how much do people go out of their way to improve, how much information do they absorb from people better than them in order to improve, do they even realize their own mistakes or are they blaming it on the game and do they even have the potential of a good player in general. In league which is a game many time's harder than dbd the player's with the highest mastery points(essentially prestige) are typically bronze or silver player's with thousands to tens of thousands of hours.
TLDR; time is indicator but a weak one with too many variables. Prestige is not actually a representation of time in general, but how much time you have spent recently on dbd relatively.
I think your 75 hours for 100 Prestige estimate is off. It takes literally about 100 million bloodpoints to reach Prestige 100. Matches are about 10 minutes each and with bonuses you get maybe 60k per match on average. So in one hour you earn maybe 400k bloodpoints including bonuses and rituals and such. Let’s be optimistic and say it’s 500k bloodpoints per hour though, To get 100 million then takes 200 hours of playtime.
And that’s just to get the 100 million bloodpoints. To actually be 100 Prestige you have to spend all of those points on a single character but very few players only play a single character literally all the time. If only to unlock perks from other characters most people spend at least 1 million prestige on ones outside their main favorite. So in reality it’s even longer.
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@Marius1234456918 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3248969#Comment_3248969
This doesnt mean anything if you count on that nurse isnt the strongest killer. I dont say weskers cant win against bad people or solo q people. But he dont have anything to end loops faster then break the pallet. Thats makes him in loop situation even worst then clown or Trapper. Hes good in open space but good people dont move in open space anyway.
Wesker is strong at zoning between tiles, has good map mobility, and can simply vault over safe pallets at medium to long length loops to get a hit. Plus his infection acts as decent indirect gen slowdown since it forces survivors to run around using sprays over and over or risk being 8% slower movement and instant downable. On top of which he’s the most picked killer and has above average kill rates at all brackets in both the dev stats and on Nightlight.
He definitely does not need a buff.
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I would just make Trapper Sack where he starts the game with all his traps in his inventory but can’t pick them up off the ground his base kit and replace Trapper Sack with an add-on that reverts his ability to he starts with 3 traps in hand but can pick traps up and move them. Frankly that purple add-on playstyle variant of Trapper Sack is in my opinion a way more fun and time efficient way to play Trapper since it eliminates all that walking around to pick things up in the early game, So making that be just how he works and then offering an add-on for people who prefer the current style seems like the way to go.
And yeah, Trapper could use a buff, he is consistently in the bottom rankings on dev stats whenever they release them regardless of skill bracket, he’s below average on Nightlight stats, and he’s on the bottom tier of pretty much every killer tier list I’ve seen. And a lot of it is due to that really slow early game.
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Dead by Daylight's success was a big fire, but it's already been reduced to ashes.
Dead by Daylight’s userbase is pretty constant, hardly “reduced to ashes”. Here’s the Steam charts for instance over its lifetime, it’s hovered around in the 30-50k basically the whole time, periodically spiking around 100k at some big events.
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@IlliterateGenocide said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/352863/low-profile-discussion
Dont even know why it has a duration. it should be unlimited when the last standing
The duration means it keeps going even if another survivor stands back up.
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I have never once been hit by someone trying a CJ tech, it might be one of the dumbest tactics in the game.
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One reason is because the ratio of new players to veteran players in a game that’s over six years old is pretty low so matchmaking is going to have a tougher time finding enough new players to go solely against each other. They don’t want people waiting in queue forever so eventually they have to go against somebody stronger than their current rating.
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- Brutal Strength is already a fairly popular perk, it’s around the #15 most used perk on Nightlight for instance, so it doesn’t really need a buff to see more usage. It’s actually a decent chase perk since you can get a survivor onto the side of a pallet facing a dead zone and break it and they will get noticeably less distance from you to reach safety.
- I could maybe see Eruption get its Incapacitation maybe being reduced a bit since it’s been one of the top used perks since the rework. I wouldn’t be surprised if the devs have been monitoring that one.
- Ruin could maybe use a slight buff to put its regression between where it was rework and where it is now. Note though that it is still seeing average use even in its current state, probably because it still works ok on certain high mobility killers who can chase people off gens over and over. (It’s definitely weaker than it was though!)
- I agree that Oppression could use a buff. Reducing or even eliminating the cooldown on it and/or increasing how many gens it hits when you trigger it would help.
- Pop is ok as is, it actually gives decent regression so long as you kick gens that are worth kicking. It’s also still seeing well above average use so it doesn’t need to be buffed for that purpose. Comparing it to Pain Resonance is faulty because if anything Pain Resonance might need to be slightly nerfed still since it’s been the consistent number one killer perk after the rework.
- I disagree with removing the information from Call of Brine, without that it’s too similar to Overcharge. I do think Call of Brine could stand to be slightly weakened though, either by limiting how many gens it can be on or by lowering its regression rate slightly.
- Overwhelming Presence could certainly use a buff. One way might be to simply increase or eliminate its range restriction and/or increase its consumption rate penalty.
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Keep in mind the game needs four survivors for every killer in the queue to be balanced, that alone is going to bias the incentives toward survivors most of the time. If half the players are queuing for both sides for instance it needs 60% of the killers to switch sides to balance it out.
Even so I do occasionally see a killer incentive like others said above.