dugman
dugman
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@ringwinning said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1668123#Comment_1668123
I... dont' know the difference or how to tap versus lunge. I honestly thought there was just one way to attack with her haha.
To clarify, if you tap the attack button you'll do a quick short range attack that hits a wide arc in front of you. If you can get close enough you should do a tap attack since it's generally much harder to avoid a hit with it.
To lunge you hold the attack button down to do a charged up, slower attack that has a longer reach. The lunge attack gives you a short boost of speed so your attack range is longer, but the downside is that it also has a fairly narrow attack angle and the survivor can see you charging it up if they're looking for it so it's easier to dodge than a quick attack. I think lunges are best used when you see a survivor is about to get to a vault or pallet and you're not quite in range of a short attack, you can lunge for that little extra bit of distance to get the hit and know that they're probably not going to be sidestepping it.
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Well the new version of Thanatophobia is a buff for Plagues that use it since if the survivors refuse to cleanse then the gen slow down will be even greater than it is currently. So it’s a way to encourage them to cleanse earlier. You could even throw in Blood Echo maybe to give extra incentive for them to cleanse if you find them getting a lot of use out of exhaustion perks against you.
And I suppose if the issue for your Plague is pallets then you could also try, say, Brutal to help you clear them more quickly in the early game to set up for a later game with dead zones near a 3- or 4-gen area. The downside there is that if they do cleanse them you actually can do a lot of work just with puke and kicking pallets won’t be as important.
I don’t think Plague is all that great personally since she has no map mobility and her ability is somewhat swingy. She’s a little like Oni in that if she can get a really good use out of a charged up Corrupted Purge then she can down multiple survivors in a short time span and snowball the match, but if she doesn’t manage to get that payoff she’s a bit weak as a killer because she has no map mobility or anti-loop ability. Both her and Oni are kind of like higher risk, higher reward killers, they can win big or lose big depending on the situation with with charging up their ability,
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Same goes for her White Nit Comb add-on which doubles her Blink even points in game (up to the 8k limit) but reduces her Blink attack lunge range, and her Dull Bracelet which doubles her Blink hit scores but reduces her blink range and her Anxious Grip add-on which gives 200 bonus points for blinking past someone. They all only grant their bonus points up to the 8k limit.
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Bodyblocking someone in a corner the entire game until the endgame collapse kills them. (Bodyblocking on its own isn't reportable but an extreme case of it might be depending on whether Customer Service sees the video and considers it a case of Unsportsmanlike Conduct or Harassment. )
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@FireHazard said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1665307#Comment_1665307
I personally disagree with this, so allow me to explain.
I don't really think it takes skill to know you'll make it to a pallet or window, especially when it's a straight shot. I see what you mean by the timing is what requires skill, not the button press, but I just don't really see how knowing when to press a button to avoid getting downed really requires any skill to begin with.
I don't want to sound like it takes no skill at all, it definitely does take some knowledge to know that you'll make it to that pallet with DH, but it's just something that anyone could figure out if they know what the perk does. If you're faced with a scenario that allowed you to get to a vault or pallet with no downside, wouldn't you obviously take it? Since most players who use the perk already know that if the loop is long than they can avoid a mistake by simply facing towards the pallet, using DH, and escaping the down all together.
To say skill is involved at all is... arguable, I'd say it's just common sense that allows players to figure this out early on. Skill is more-so something that's contributed towards your looping skills or overall knowledge of the Killer or even specific Killers and how they play. I don't personally agree that any skill is involved in Dead Hard, at least not in the scenario's I gave in the initial post. Of course it takes some advanced knowledge on when to use it in a more tricky loop, but the perk itself is only really an addition to someones looping potential.
I think you might be overestimating the average player's ability to use Dead Hard properly. There are a lot of players who for instance only try to use it to dodge attacks, which is a mistake unless you're timing is really exceptional. The better use of it is to get a bit of extra distance in a chase to ensure you get to a pallet in a close call for instance. And if you use it too early in a chase for distance it might backfire, you want to use it at the last moment but soon enough that there's no chance of getting hit as you do the drop or vault. So knowing when to time it involves properly gauging the timing on both your path and the killer's path in a loop, and looping and knowing proper pathing is one of the things that I think is one of the higher skill cap aspects of this game. (Knowing the intricacies of specific tiles for loops is still one of my weak areas at least.)
Basically I think Dead Hard is a skill enhancer in that sense. An average player will probably only get average results out of it, an excellent player can get excellent results out of it. Compare that to, for instance, Decisive Strike which really only requires you to be able to hit the skill check involved to get value from it, or Borrowed Time which pretty much works passively while you rescue someone. Dead Hard is in contrast something you actually have to time correctly or it's pretty worthless.
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In addition to other advice above, I'll say that the one weakness of swfs, at least ones that aren't great players on their own, is they can tend to be overly altruistic. They really, REALLY don't want one of their swf friends to get killed. So if you're against a swf you can keep in the back of your mind to expect them to possibly try all sorts of risky rescues, flashlight saves, headons, pallet saves and so on. Basically if you down one of them and you're extra prepared for that you can get a lot of free hits.
Of course the best swf players don't do that, but if you're rank 15 you're probably not going against the best players.
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@lowiq said:
If you're queueing at rank 15, the chance that you are going against a coordinated survivor team every other game is really really low. Chances are, you're just not able to put enough pressure on survivors.
Always focus on macro play - For example, it might seem quite obvious but after you hook someone, you can deduce that 1 person is on the hook, 1 person is likely going for the save, and 2 people are on gens. With that information, you should decide whether to contest the unhook or contest the generator. (Do you know what generators are being worked on? Are they too far to contest? Do you see scratch marks around the hook?) After a while your macro play should improve a lot and will help you a lot in pressuring survivors.
Also try not to overcommit to chases and focus on the weak link.
Actually the dev stats last year indicated that on average 55% of games include a 2-, 3- or 4- person swf. It's a safe bet all those swfs are on comms as well. Now how good those swf players are and how coordinated they actually are can vary quite a bit, I've definitely gone against some pretty terrible swf players (e.g. they just immediately run in for rescues or badly timed flashlight saves because their friend is yelling for help in their headset). But at least in terms of how often players are in swfs in general, groups that include at least some swf members are more common than all solo groups.
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DC bans can't come back fast enough. Just last night I had a couple people ragequit because I downed one of them as Legion. (And I'm not even a great Legion player, I was playing like crap last night. Talk about pathetic behavior!)
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Dead Hard is a really good perk but I think it's a fair one. Good timing of Dead Hard in a chase is definitely a skill, it's not something you just spam and get value out of it. It's popular because really good survivors know when to use it and when not to. As a killer if someone uses Dead Hard to beat me in a chase to a pallet or to dodge an attack I don't think "Dead Hard OP", I think "ah well, that guy made a good play".
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I think Blight is easier to play at a reasonable level than Nurse, it is very difficult to learn to hit Blinks consistently while you can get around the map and score occasional hits with Lethal Rush after just a few games. However, Blight might have a higher skill ceiling at the expert level than Nurse. With Nurse once you are good enough to hit Blinks it’s pretty much mechanically doing the same Blink-Blink-hit every time regardless of the terrain. Blight though is hypothetically capable of doing three, four or five bounces off terrain to incorporate hairpin turns in Lethal Rush hits and that it a skill that could take a long time to really master.
So essentially I think Blight is more new player friendly, you can be “ok” with Blight relatively quickly, but becoming a top level Blight players who can consistently get crazy multiple bank shots will probably be a real challenge, even maybe harder than becoming a very high skill Nurse. (Maybe)
P.S. Either way Blight is waaaay more fun to play than Nurse. It’s not even close, Nurse is my least favorite killer to play while Blight is really enjoyable.
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DC penalties can't come back fast enough. There were WAY less disconnects when the automated system was up.
And no, ragequitting is in the list of official actions that are considered Unsportsmanlike Conduct that can result in a temporary ban. That's the whole reason they implemented automated bans in the first place. It's still a bannable offense, it's just not being enforced at the moment because they don't have a way to report it. (Hypothetically they could have people send in ingame tickets but I'm guessing they got swamped with them before the automated system was in place so they don't accept them that way now. But who knows?)
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Honestly just make all brown add-ons and offerings unlimited for all players, killer and survivor. Have the Bloodweb just give Yellow and up. I'd be totally ok with that.
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NOED is mainly a Haunted Grounds that happens to trigger in the endgame instead of the midgame. And since most games end with 0-2 kills (about 60% I think) it follows that you likewise get into that endgame stage most of the time so NOED has a chance to pay off with an extra down or two. The downside to NOED is that since it only works in those final couple of minutes it doesn’t have quite the potential to snowball momentum for a full 3k or 4k win that, say, getting one or two instant downs with Haunted Ground or Devour Hope can do by helping hook or kill survivors early on.
The funny thing is that even though Haunted Grounds tends to pay off more than NOED, I’ve never gotten a single survivor complaint about it but boy do some of them hate NOED! I think it’s simply that once the gens are done they feel they’re entitled to escape and have already won the game, so if they get downed at that point with NOED they want to lash out more in frustration at victory being taken away. Of course had you had a perk that helped you down them earlier it could have been even worse for them, so it’s kind of short-sighted to think NOED is somehow overpowered or unfair.
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Basically to me Monitor and Abuse is an alternative to perks that grant Undetectability or that make survivors Oblivious like Trail of Torment. Essentially any perk that reduces your terror radius means you can start chases a bit closer on average, cutting down the target’s time to get to safety. Monitor and Abuse’s strength is it’s a passive perk, it always works when you aren’t in a chase. The advantage of the Undetectability and Oblivious perks is that they eliminate your terror radius entirely plus Undetectability hides your red stain, but of course they also all have more limited durations or are triggered situationally.
I think which you prefer will depend on your playstyle. But generally speaking Monitor and Abuse works best on the killers that have a smaller than normal terror radius to begin with because you’re getting a substantially better percentage range decrease out of it. Meyers at Evil 2 for instance is only 16 meter terror radius normally, so with Monitor is down to just a tiny radius (throw on his Dead Rabbit add-on or whatever it’s called and his terror radius is a ridiculously small 4 meters, he’s pretty much not giving any heartbeat warning until he’s virtually on top of the survivor.) Monitor has less impact on the normal terror radius killers but is still useful. Undetectability doesn’t trigger as often but when it does pays off with a greater chance of a successful ambush or even a grab if you’re lucky.
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Blight is closer to Billy than Legion. He moves the same speed as Billy’s chainsaw sprint with similar steering between slams. Blight has the movement advantage of being able to instantly start a Rush (versus a 2 second rev up), course change at walls, allowing him to do maneuvers Billy can’t like hairpin 180 turns going up stairs and sharp multiple 90 degree changes. Of course Billy’s advantage is he instant-downs healthy survivors on a hit while sprinting.
Legion is different from both. They are slower than Blight’s Rush while in Frenzy but they have excellent maneuverability plus get Killer Instinct tracking and inflict Deep Wounds for slow down. On the other hand they can’t down anybody while in Frenzy and their Frenzy has a longer cooldown between uses.
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I only play killer and Borrowed Time doesn’t bother me. I don’t stick around hooks waiting for survivors, and so if someone runs in while I’m there it’s usually because they have Borrowed Time. So I just hit and hopefully down the person doing the unhook, and if the BT person is still in range I hit them too since it forces them to waste about 10 seconds Mending the wound (kind of like a half-Pop Goes the Weasel in a sense).
The only time Borrowed Time can be a little frustrating might be when the Exits are open and you happen to have multiple survivors with both Borrowed Time and Decisive Strike just running in and rescuing in front of you. Even if you down the rescuer and hook them the person they just rescued can turn around and rescue them with Borrowed Time and be immune to a rehook for a full minute. Fortunately though that’s a pretty rare situation.
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I’m going with Meyers here by a little bit over Wraith but it’s close. I think Wraith’s extra speed while cloaked giving him better map mobility helps extend his pressure. Meyers has better snowball potential if he can manage to snag multiple people in Evil 3 but if they’re spread out it’s harder to do since he has no stealth or speed at that point to cover the map or start chases at a closer than normal distance.
On a tangent I always assume a killer is running a minimum or two brown or yellow add-ons. There’s literally no good reason to ever play a killer using “base kit with no add-ons”, the only reason to do it is for bragging rights to show you can win without them. So for example assuming Wraith doesn’t have either a movement speed buff or bell add-on or decloak speed buff is silly, they will have easy access to at least the brown and yellow versions of those. You don’t need to assume they are using a specific green, purple or red because those are a bit harder to get, but you also can’t assume they never have them either. (I think Meyers has rhe most fun add-ons of the three though, Tombstone is awesome when it works. 😄)
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The Greek skins got me thinking of a Medusa killer that has an ability which passively applies negtive conditions on survivors that look directly at her. So something like
- While looking directly at Medusa with line of sight you are Hindered
- As you look at her an energy bar build up at one charge per second. The more charges you have the worse the condition that’s inflicted. Stopping looking at her regresses the bar at one charge per two seconds (so it builds up faster than it goes away)
- With 1 charge you are Blind
- With 2 charges you are Exhausted
- With 3 charges you become Exposed
- With 4 charges you become Broken (the injury from becoming Broken does not heal when the charge goes away)
- With 5 charges you are immobile
I’m just spitballing the conditions and timing but the idea is it’s a killer that survivors want to actively not directly look at for more than a glance.
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To me Wraith's main strength is that because he's so hard to see while cloaked and moves faster than normal he can use that to get much closer to a survivor and either ambush or body block them to get a quick hit before they can get to safety. Once he's visible he's a vanilla 115% killer so you definitely don't want to spend a lot of time visibly chasing survivors if you can help it because it's less time efficient than getting close to a survivor who's not too near a safe spot and getting a hit in before they reach it. Obviously if it looks like the person you hit is going to be an easy chase then sure, down them, why not? But if it looks like they'll make you spend a really long time in a chase just break off and ambush someone else. After all, with you stealth and speed you can cover a wider area of the map to help you pressure multiple survivors simultaneously.
There's actually more than one way to go with his add-ons I think. The most popular is using one of his bell add-ons to make it harder for survivors to tell where and when you are uncloaking. But even without that you can, for example, use his cloaked movement speed add-ons for better map mobility. You can even use those if you want to be more of a "tunneling" Wraith, cloaking and chasing down survivors you've recently injured and relying more on your speed than your stealth. (If you do go that route Bloodhound is actually a pretty decent perk for it too, it's difficult to lose a survivor you've injured with Bloodhound since it works even if they are crouching around.)
I think a couple of things to watch for would be:
- Remember that if you're moving you're not actually invisible, you're just harder to see. So do still use terrain and obstacles to hide your movement if you're trying to sneak up on survivors.
- Spine Chill is a fairly common perk. Just assume that every survivor has it and play accordingly. Don't look directly at the place you're trying to sneak up on, look off to the side instead. That will help keep the Spine Chill from activating too early and giving them a big early warning to run away before you get there. And in general looking around as you move versus just looking straight ahead can help give you better awareness of other things going on nearby so it's probably a good habit to be in regardless. (Obviously you have to kind of watch where you're going but just be aware that the longer you stare at where you're going the more likely it is a survivor with Spine Chill will just run away.)
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There's Hag Mains, and then there's Michi. Michi is the Neil Peart of Hags. (As in the old joke "How many drummers does it take to screw in a light bulb? - Four. One to screw in the light bulb and three to talk about how Neil Peart could've done it better.")
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I don't play survivor but I hear ya, sometimes I just can't chase for the life of me or whatever. I was getting trounced with Billy yesterday, mainly because I don't play him that often and my chainsaw timing is bad. Happens to everybody.
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Honestly the Huntress Lullaby effect isn't even strong enough to be a Hex. They could make it just a perk that collects tokens ala BBQ and Chili or Dying Light, for example, and it would still be only "ok" because it takes a little time to ramp up and even at full charge its effect isn't going to hurt survivors who are good at skill checks all that much. To me, if something is a Hex, its effect should be on par in terms of effectiveness with granting instant downs from Exposed status ala Haunted Grounds, NOED or Devour Hope. Or if you're talking about slowdown, then it should be on par with Ruin. Huntress Lullaby is much weaker than all of those.
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Hmm, well no game is going to be literally "fun for everyone", but some ideas I think might be good if they could be feasibly done
- When the new MMR goes live eventually makes sure it's including swf composition in its calculation for the survivor side. Ideally you'd want to probably use something like a neural network trained to give a combined rating for a survivor team based on individual player ratings and which are them are in a swf together as opposed to just, say, an average of the player's solo ratings. But as long as there exists some sort of handicap system to put groups with swfs against higher rated killers I think it would lead to more even feeling match results.
- If feasible reinstate the DC bans once the exploit hackers were using is patched. Nobody enjoys playing games with people who quit on a whim.
- Include a replay system that allows you to save a just completed game video locally. This would be not only fun to watch but also would help when submitting a complaint that customer service wants a replay of
- On a related note, on the backend the dedicated servers should be capable of automatically saving a game log and replay file for any game which generates an ingame customer complaint ticket. That would eliminate the need for the players to manually record their games using third party software, both making it easier for the players to submit a ticket and for customer service because they would know any ticket they choose to review will have the appropriate replay file for reference.
- Replace the Space Bar Struggle mechanic on hook stage 2 with skill checks. Skill checks are at least somewhat more interesting and fun than just tapping space bar repeatedly (or holding down a macro key if you don't want to tap the space button over and over)
- Keys are mostly ok but I'd only let the key user escape with their key rather than multiple survivors. The key would open the hatch, let that player escape, then close.
- Boost the Yellow Mori and weaken the Red Mori as follows:
- Yellow Mori: Lets you kill any survivor that you've hooked twice. (Better than the current version but not as good as Green)
- Green Mori: Lets you kill one survivor that you've hooked once. (No change)
- Red Mori: Both of the above. Lets you kill one survivor you've hooked once and any survivors you've hooked twice. (Weaker than the current version but still able to get multiple mori animations
- In conjunction with the above, if development resources aren't an impediment then make it so each killer has four different mori animations so if you kill multiple survivors during a match using a Mori, etc, you get a different animation each time
- Declare a definitive winning and losing side after a match. Not having a clear "Survivors won" or "Killer won" message at the end just leads to confusing debates over what it means to "win" a match. (How much does endgame score count? Kills/escapes? Do pips even matter at all? etc) Pick a consistent measurement of winning and losing between the killer and the surviving side and make that the ultimate objective for each side. (And along those lines, make the survivors win or lose as a team. Most survivors play that way anyway and, honestly, semi-cooperative games generally don't work well in practice. If a game is team based then make the team win or lose as a whole)
- Add a hook counter icon below the survivor's names on the HUD. (Roman numerals I and II for hooks would work). Knowing how many hooks a player has is useful for both sides.
- Hot-tips when you mouse over keywords in perk and add-on descriptions such as "Considerably" or "Slightly" that pop up the actual numerical value. (The official DbD wiki works this way, it would be nice to have that functionality in the game too.)
- Turn up the default brightness slightly. The game is just a bit too dark, especially on some maps like the lower level of The Game where I literally can't see the walls and objects. (I turn up the brightness on my monitor specifically because of this.)
- Less of this -> 🌽🌽🌽🌽🌽😡🌽🌽🌽🌽🚜😐🌽🌽🌽
- Random select button on the character select screen to pick a random killer/survivor. A Randomize button to give you a random load-out from among your perks and add-ons and offerings, etc, would also be fun. 😊
- A Mission tracker bar on the right side of the screen that shows you the progress in your currently active appropriate Daily Mission and Rift challenge. (e.g. 3/5 Hatchet hits)
- Make the Obsession have a slight visual cue around their head or body indicating they are the Obsession (kind of like how Freddy has a slight aura to indicate someone is sleeping.) I know that the Obsession makes a noise when you chase them and the tentacles on their icon wiggle, but that only happens in a chase, it would be nice to be able to tell outside a chase who you're Obsessed with as a killer (and maybe likewise for the Survivors to tell who the Obsession is at a glance.)
- When you use a Secret offering, replace its token on the campfire startup screen with a random fake offering. That way the Secret offering is actually a surprise when it happens. And along those lines, make more Secret offerings, at the moment there's basically only the Shroud on the survivor side and the Mori's on the killer side so it's not much of a "secret" when you see a facedown token.
- A sudden death timer of, say, four minutes where if nobody scores any points on either side for that time then the endgame collapse immediately starts. That would help deal with the uncommon but annoying situations where two or three survivors are all intentionally hiding and not doing gens at all but are hoping the others die or open hatch with a key while the killer looks around for them. Depending on how good the survivors are at hiding and how good the killer is at searching and what detection perks they may or may not have this can devolve into a fairly lengthy stalemate sometimes.
- When two survivors are left, double or triple the speed of the bleed out timer so it takes about 90 seconds to bleed out instead of 4 minutes. That way the killer still has an opportunity to slug for a four kill if they want, but the time to do it is more limited so that phase of the game can move more quickly if they do. It forces the killer to either quickly find the fourth survivor or hook the third and hope to win the hatch race. And likewise it forces the third survivor to go for a revive more quickly if they want to go for the rescue. Speeding up this portion of the game is useful since this endgame tends to be the part that can feel like it's dragging out a bit.
- Allow players to cash in their unused bloodweb add-ons and offerings for maybe 1/4 or 1/3 value. It doesn't have to be a huge amount, just something so that it doesn't feel like most of your inventory is just junk you'll literally never use.
- An official web site where you can view your own game stats (average scores by killer or as a survivor, kill rates, escape rates, etc.) It would also be fun to be able to view overall stats on characters, such as Blight's overall average scores or kill rates or percentage of games various perks are used.
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@Xyvielia said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1659444#Comment_1659444
Wow, I completely forgot about that series!
Cigarette Burns was crazy, but OMGz
...The Washingtonians was too much🤣
EDIT: should’ve done more seasons
Yeah that series was pretty wild. It had some really good episodes (I liked "Family" with George Wendt, aka Norm from Cheers) and some pretty terrible episodes.
The show's intro theme and sequence was pretty good too. 😄
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I thought I remembered a Deer Woman story from somewhere - Masters of Horror had an episode with her
https://youtu.be/nhcgWFOktcI -
@Apollohigh420 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1659408#Comment_1659408
Why tho? I didnt see any Asian people offend by Spirit or Oni. So why would the be offend by An Native american killer?
Just to clarify, it sounds more like the idea is "A monster from Native American mythology which kills people". I don't really know anything about Native American myths but I'm sure there's something cool that could be drawn on as a killer idea there. 🙂 (I think the Deer Woman has been used in one or two horror stories for instance.)
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Just as a reminder, the new MMR system that the devs have said is going to be coming back eventually has no monthly reset.
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Cages save you about 10 seconds carry time on average. You can cross half the map in 10 seconds so that’s more than enough time to start a new chase assuming another survivor is on your half of the map.
If nobody is on your half of the map though then hooking makes more sense since it forces the others to run across the map for the save. Having a short range tracking perk like Infectious Fright is useful if you want something to give info in that regard.
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Ghost Face and Bubba are both in the category of killers that if you outplay the survivors you should win the match but there's not a lot of room for error on your part if the survivors play well. They play very differently from each other as well, so rather than worry about which one is "better" I think the question you might want to ask is which one do you think has a playstyle you'd enjoy more?
- Bubba's style is simple: walk up to a survivor, start your chainsaw when you get close, Profit! (Unless they beat you to a vault or something) And that's it. He's got no tracking, no stealth, no fast map travel, he's just dangerous in a footchase. (Technially he's also really good at face camping but that's not a terribly effective strategy in general so I don't recommend doing it.)The upside is if you can hit a couple of people early on with the chainsaw the quick downs will build up quite a bit of pressure for you. The downside is that you have no stealth or map movement so they'll usually see you coming and you'll be in for a chase. Chases are definitely a fun part of the game, so that's not a bad thing, but in terms of time efficiency it does mean you're starting at the maximum possible distance for your chase most of the time.
- Ghost Face's stealth is great. He can enter it instantly and it stays on until he attacks or someone stares at him for about a second. And if they do stare at you then you get a Killer Instinct ping on their location which means he has a bit of tracking as well. Plus while Stalking he can build up to get Exposed hits on survivors. (Usually the tactic is build it up to 99% completion, move in and finish right before you get there, or if you can manage to stalk while very close quickly stalk to Exposed then rush in for the hit). Depending on the survivors and situation you may or may not be getting Exposed hits all the time, but even if you aren't your Stealth does allow you to get much closer than normal before starting a chase which cuts down the chase times and reduces their opportunity to get to safety before a hit. Because you may not be able to always get Exposed hits, and because he has no fast map travel, you do have to play Ghost Face a bit strategically.
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It doesn't hurt my feelings but I definitely don't like sore losers who ragequit, they ruin the game for everybody else. DC bans can't come back fast enough.
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@GrimReaperJr1232 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1656639#Comment_1656639
I believe Otzdarva put it best when he said that Thana works best when it makes other perks better. It makes that little bit lost from Surge or Pop hit that tiny bit harder.
Yeah, I think that's a good way to look at it. Thanatophobia is a good supplemental perk, not necessarily great on its own though.
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@SweetTerror said:
When BHVR revealed that survivors would no longer suffer from reduced healing speeds against Thana, but would instead suffer from greater affects to action speeds, needless to say I think we all assumed those numbers would be greater than 1%.
Literally adding just a few more seconds to a generator? Why even bother?
It's not 1%, it's 1% per injured survivor. So 1-4% depending on how many survivors are injured. So without any other perks that's 4-20 extra seconds per solo survivor gen speed.
Obviously Ruin is more powerful, the downside there is that as a Hex it can be removed. Ruin + Undying mitigates that issue but that is two perks so I would hope it would be better than one perk on its own!
Pop Goes the Weasel is 20 second slow down per trigger and can't be removed. On the other hand you're not guaranteed to get to Pop a gen after every hook necessarily, occasionally you'll miss a chance, and if you're not getting downs it's not going to help you catch up much
Thana is the weakest of the three in terms of gen slow down but it's also passive, it require no additional action on your part as a killer other than your normal attempts to hit survivors. That does make it a bit more time efficient than it might seem at first glance. And of course it can't be removed since it's not a Hex
Dying Light is probably the weakest of the main gen slow down perks, mainly because it takes a while to ramp up and in order for you to get it to a good slowdown you have to be getting a lot of hooks anyway so it's a bit of a "win more" perk. (If you already have four or five non-Obsession hooks by midgame you're probably doing well even without this perk.) The fact that it also doesn't even apply its penalty to the Obsession is just insult to injury, it's not great, at least not on its own.
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I've never cared about rank either way.
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I think I went with Trapper as the killer who most needs a buff. Clown is already being worked on but Trapper requires a bit too much fiddling with the traps as a setup and there's a bit of swinginess in where they initially appear and the type of map he's on. I don't know if he's literally the least effective killer overall per se, he's in a group of killers that are "good enough" to win if you outplay the survivors, but I think he might be the one that could use a buff to make him a little more consistent.
If I had to pick a killer to revamp, though, it would be Nurse. Not for balance but simply because her blink stun mechanic is one of the most annoying killer mechanics in the game. Who actually thinks that staring at your feet for 1/3 of the match would be fun? Compare Nurse to Blight, for instance - he is frequently stunned as well but the stun is a bit shorter and he doesn't need to be stunned in chases, he can just run down people at 115% movement speed. Or compare her to Legion, they have a long stun but you only have to deal with it once a minute or so. Nurse is stunned literally every 5-10 seconds or so, it's ridiculous. I wish they would at least let you keep your head up so you could look around while stunned, then if that's too powerful just make her blinks refresh a bit slower to compensate.
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Supernatural DLC pack
Survivors - Sam and Dean Winchester
Possible Perks
- Brotherly Love: Someone else in the match has an increased chance of being the Obsession If you are not the Obsession but are within X meters of them then you get A/B/C% action speed boosts on (fill in the blank)
- Angel Blade: If you are standing within 1 meter of the killer facing them then you can use your activation key to Stun them with your blade for 3/4/5 seconds once per match.
- Know Your Enemy: At the start of the match your HUD will display 1/2/3 of the killer's perks for 15 seconds as well as the killer's character name.
Killer - Demon (possibly the Yellow Eyed Demon or Lucifer)
Possible abilities
- Smoke Travel: Turn into a stream of black smoke that can travel at faster than normal speed for a short time with a cooldown. You can't interact with Props on the map or be stunned or blinded in this form or injure survivors
- Possession: While travelling as smoke, if you can directly intercept a survivor you can Possess them for a short time (say 10 seconds). While Possessed you control the survivor's avatar and can move them at 115% speed, drop pallets, break gens or dropped pallets or attack other nearby survivors with a basic hand to hand attack. After the duration ends you leave the survivor you've possessed and appear at a random location 20 meters away. Possession has a cooldown of 60 seconds.
Killer perks
- Deal with the Devil: If you are in a chase and stop moving for 2 seconds and allow the chase to end then you "make a deal" with that survivor, forcing them to cause have an automatic immediate failure on their next skill based action (i.e. if they start repairing a generator it will immediately explode as if they failed a skill check. If they start healing the target will scream as if they failed a skill check). This ability has a cooldown of X/Y/Z seconds
- Devious Intent: Survivors do not perceive your true facing except during attacks and breaking actions. The direction you are facing along with the associated red stain are deflected randomly up to 15/30/45 degrees off the true direction. (The angle they see is consistent, it doesn't "flicker" but it's never the actual direction you're looking except when you do something destructive).
- Demonic Torture: Survivors you hook are sadistically attached to the hooks and take an additional 3/4/5 seconds to rescue. Self-Escape attempts are 50% relatively harder than normal.
Map -The Bunker
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Yeah, the current version of Cruel Limits is weak, and is still probably weak even with its range buff on the PTB. I think either of the following would make it more worthwhile:
- Have it block pallets and windows within 32 meters like the original post suggests. At least that way if you do happen to be in the area of the completed gen this perk is going to make it much more likely to get a hit on a fleeing survivor. As it is even with the windows within 8 seconds of the compelted gen blocked there's still likely a pallet loop to avoid a hit.
- Have it block all windows on the map with no range limit. It only happens five times per match and, if it doesn't block pallets, survivors can still use them of course. But at least if it didn't have a range limit on the window blocking you'd be guaranteed to basically have blocked windows possibly affecting whoever you happen to be chasing at the time the gen is completed.
Basically a perk that only goes off 5 times per match should be pretty good when it happens and Cruel Limits just isn't that good.
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@Ultraviolenze said:
Why would you make Cruel Limits map wide when you can't patrol the entire map at once
Cruel Limits being map wide would mean that if you are in a chase and a gen gets done the person you are chasing can’t use a vault for the duration. It would definitely be an improvement.
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Wraith actually does gigs for Boo Man Group. (Also does Cowbell for a Fear the Reaper cover.)
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- A small hook count icon below the survivors in the HUD so you can tell at a glance what stage they’re on.
- A “randomize” button on the killer screen that gives you a random killer with a random loadout. Or alternatively a set of randomize buttons, one on the character selection menu to select a random character, one on the perk tab to select random perks, one on the add-on tab to select add-ons and one on the offering tab for those.
- The game should automatically archive behind the scenes game replay data and after game chat logs for any complaint submitted using the ingame complaint system. It would ensure that all tickets have the necessary video for review as applicable, making it much more reliable for customer service and much easier for the player submitting the complaint.
- If you have a daily mission and/or rift mission allow for a small mission tracker HUD on the right side somewhere. If you need to get 4 hits coming out of stealth with Wraith, for instance, it would be nice to have a little reminder and counter during the game.
- Hot tips when you hover the mouse over a word like “Considerably” in a perk or add-on description that tell you the actual numerical effect. (Similar to how the official wiki works but for ingame use.)
- A solo practice mode where you can free roam a map to explore it.
- Something like a faint aura or effect around a survivor who is your Obsession when you start chasing them (a bit easier to spot than the tiny wiggling Obsession tendrils around their icon in the lower left.
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The DC bans can’t come back fast enough. If it makes these ragequitting crybabies feel annoyed enough to stop playing altogether then awesome, they won’t be missed.
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Cruel Limits still probably isn't one I'd use, but the extra range does at least help you get a hit out of it possibly. The problem with it though is that, even if it literally blocked every window map wide, it only triggers once per gen for 30 seconds. So at most it's getting you a couple of hits over the course of the game, maybe. And that would be if it were map wide, as it is where it only covers a 30 meter radius survivors can run out of that radius in just 8 seconds and you will maybe only get one hit if you're lucky.
Now if Cruel Limits also blocked pallet drops for 30 seconds after a gen pops and had a really large radius, then it would be a solid perk probably.
Mindbreaker we don't know how long the Exhaustion lasts, but they said "a few seconds" increase so it's probably something like 5-10 seconds now. Which still sounds really weak. It only works on survivors doing gens that are at less than 50% completion and only makes them exhausted for a short bit as they run away from the gen. So... what, they won't get Sprint Burst is the main effect? In that scenario? Seems bad.
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@gibblywibblywoo said:
While perks are usually somewhat designed around a killers power they've always seemed to balance them independantly. I think we need to wait to see the thana values before we complain. It'll probably be way stronger for delay when combined with sloppy. Which, lets face it, everyone does. Thana on its own is pretty trash rn anway.
Perks aren’t even designed around the killer’s power, they’re just designed around the theme of the killer. Fo instance,
- Franklin’s Demise only works with basic attacks but it’s a Bubba starting perk and Bubba intentionally tries to use his chainsaw as much as possible against healthy survivors.
- Wraith’s starting perks include Predator and Bloodhound which don’t really have anything to do with him specifically, and if anything Bloodhound works best for tunneling injured survivors but Wraith’s strength is doing hit and runs as opposed to focussing on single survivors.
- Save the Best for Last works best with killers that have an alternate way of injuring the Obsession (e.g. Demo’s Shred), but it’s a Meyers starting perk and, since Meyers specialty is getting instant downs, he doesn’t even get quite as much benefit from a quick cooldown after a hit as a basic attack would.
- Dark Devotion makes you Undetectable when you hit your Obsession with a basic attack, but it’s a Plague perk and she specializes in doing damage with her puke attacks more than basic attacks.
- Stridor is a classic for Spirit but it’s actually a Nurse starting perk and it’s not obvious why Nurse needs it when she attacks mainly by using sight to line up blinks.
- and speaking of Spirit, Spirit Fury is a nice perk to get a free hit after a pallet stun, but Spirit is one of the few killers that can beat most of the pallet loops after their dropped anyway so she doesn’t get quite as much benefit from it as other killers.
- Huntress has perks that don’t really tie to her at all mechanically. Huntress Lullaby is just a generic gen slow down of sorts, Territorial Imperative is “good” in the basement (if you can call that “good”) and Beast of Prey makes you Undetectable once you get into Bloodlust. But Huntress is a slow moving ranged attacker, how often does she get into Bloodlust and even when she does how often does being Undetectable help in that situation?
- Make Your Choice works best with killers who have good map mobility and can get some distance to and from a hook quickly. But it’s a Pig perk and she is not only a normal speed killer but one that moves slower than survivors while stealthed.
Mind you, there are some good starting perks too (e.g. Tinkerer for Hillbilly, Devour Hope for Hag) but I think you get my point when I say that starting perks aren’t actually fashioned around how their killer mechanically functions, but rather are just loosely thematic to their background. (Franklin’s Demise is themed around a classic scene in Texas Chainsaw Massacre. It has nothing to do with how Bubba functions in the game though.)
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So far no exceptions to what I’d expect. And yeah, the DC bans can’t come back fast enough, it’s pretty ridiculous.
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Cool, got a ping on this. 😄 Anyway, some things I think might be worth watching for:
- Probably shouldn't include disconnects in the survey. Someone ragequitting in the beginning of the match throws things off for the whole survivor.
- If the scores are working "properly" I think you'll end up with:
- 4 kill games almost always having the killer with the highest score
- 3 kill games usually having the killer with the highest score but sometimes the escaping survivor wins on score because they carried the rest of the team
- 2 kill games will be kind of split 50/50 between the killer versus a survivor having the highest score. (I'm mainly looking just at which side has the highest score.)
- 1 kill has the killer usually not having the highest score, but occasionally they get it because the survivors simply slammed gens and did nothing else at all while the killer did a lot of secondary actions like breaking pallets and gens and getting a bunch of non-lethal hooks.
- 0 kills will almost always have the killer not having the highest score.
So the hypothesis is that looking at whichever side gets the highest score in the game is a fairly consistent indicator of which side "won" the game in terms of kills alone. And while it's often argued that the killer has a higher average score than the survivors, the question being looked at here would be is the killer's average score higher than the average highest score each match among all the survivors.
In the small sample in the original post above, for instance,
- Exclude the first two disconnects.
- Match 3 was a 4k and the killer had the highest score.
- Match 4 was a 2k with the killer getting 25k and the highest survivor getting 27k (so a somewhat close win on score for the survivors)
- Match 5 was a 3k with the killer beating the escaping survivor on score (which is usually the case but not always since escaping is worth 5k points)
Those three games above, at least, match the pattern.
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I've used it and gotten one or two hits with it, but it's generally pretty weak, especially as a Hex. Compare this to, say, Devour Hope or Haunted Grounds or NOED which can give you Exposed instant downs. All Blood Favor gets you is maybe a normal hit or two or three if you're lucky. It's not entirely "useless" but the benefit is pretty underwhelming considering it's a Hex.
Personally I think as a Hex they should simply remove the range restriction on it. So after you get a hit pallets all around the map are blocked for 15 seconds with a reasonable cooldown. That might be powerful enough to be worth being a Hex.
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@ZCerebrate said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1647434#Comment_1647434
If you're trying to determine if players should be judging whether the match was a win purely off these score events, it might be possible and I could track it for future games without much effort... I will make a prediction that it does put the killer over if not at least closely behind to the top survivor's bloodpoints even on a 2K "Loss" though just from my own experience.
Unfortunately, the average ego for online multiplayer games isn't going to be happy with that sort of assessment even if the game put big "VICTORY" or "DEFEAT" across the screen. Just look how many forum killers rage about a single survivor "escaping" through hatch even when they aren't doing some specific achievement or challenge - 27~28k BP doesn't matter when they "deserved" the satisfaction of a 4K.
Devs are trying to get rid of the ranking colors/number system as well since it just creates frustrations for something that shouldn't even matter if skill based matchmaking was reimplemented as they planned.
Whelp here I go derailing my own topic.
Personally in my own matches as killer I think of 0-1 kills as a loss, 3-4 kills as a win, and 2 kills as a draw with the tiebreaker being the score. It is possible sometimes for the killer to have the highest score in a 1 kill match but I think it’s not common, in part because escaping is a 5k point bonus all on its own which is a big point swing. And usually when 3 survivors escape the highest scoring survivor did a lot of the work so got a good score just from that. I also can’t recall a game where I’ve gotten no kills but had the highest score. It might be possible but obviously with no kills your score is going to be that much lower just from that and every survivor is getting the 5k escape bonus plus between them all the point for having all the gens completed and probably at least a couple of hook rescues and/or cleanses and heals.
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@ZCerebrate said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1647419#Comment_1647419
Ah - I don't directly parse and track 0K, 1K and 2K, 3K+Gate outcomes separately but I do have a Win vs Loss box for myself that includes all 3K+Hatch with gens or doors left to do or 4Ks as wins and everything else as a loss for myself personally. Still close to a 65% win rate with that metric though.
As for the killer BP bias - I would say that's about accurate even on a loss... unless you're getting royally stomped and toyed with as a relatively new killer, events on average aware the killer more points over a match. It's far harder to get 32k as a survivor for a reason
The killer should be averaging more than the average of all the scores of all five players in the match. That’s fine. The question though is what is the frequency of how often the killer is literally the highest score in the match under various kill counts. If the frequency of having the highest score has a strong correlation to how many kills you got then you could hypothetically simply look at bloodpoint scores and say if the killer has the highest score they won the match and if they don’t they lost the match, for example. It’s not enough to simply say “killer’s average scores are higher than survivor’s average scores” for this because the question that’s more relevant is the killer’s average scores compared to the average of the highest survivors’ scores each match which is a slightly different distribution.
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@CalamityJane said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1647409#Comment_1647409
The time saved on carrying is nowhere near as significant as the time lost because the survivor almost always gets saved instantly. Sending a survivor as far away from you as possible AND hiding where that is just loses you all map pressure you would normally get from a hooked survivor that stays there for a bit, because most people won't unhook with the killer right there.
Again, as I said in my post, if no survivors are near you then hooking is the better option. But if a survivor is within 10 seconds of you then you are exerting pressure on them faster than then you can exert on them with a hook. It’s a bit like Blight’s and Doctor’s abiltities allowing them to efficiently get back into a new chase after a hook, by Caging you can spend more of your time in chases than if you hook and that is the best ay to exert pressure throughout the match.
So yes, if nobody is in your half of the map use a hook for the reason we both mentioned, but if they are on your half of the map then you should err on the side of Caging. Undervaluing the time saved from the Cage is a mistake.
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@ZCerebrate said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1647389#Comment_1647389
While that type of data would be far more useful in drawing scientific conclusions as the dataset grew larger and larger... I'm probably not going to commit to setting that level of collection to look for significant r values without a bit more than a purely scholarly incentive :P
As for endgame scores - do you mean purely off bloodpoint values? It's rare (though I guess not impossible) if ever that I don't at least match if not barely exceed the survivor's blood point values even if they manage to 4 man escape through gates on me with all gens done. It might be 18~19k but a each individual survivor might have 15~17k even while escaping. "Winning" can put survivors as low as 3~5k blood points individually with a single person maybe being 15k~ or so while I usually have a minimum of 20k up to 32k bloodpoints before post bonuses. This should be the same for most killers though unless they just not getting ANY hooks at all when they lose matches.
I don't think I've recently bothered to pay much attention to bloodpoint scores though so I could be wrong... clearly I don't track it at all though
I normally score 20k - 32k as well as a killer. However the highest scoring survivor is usually also in that range on 2 kill games from what I’ve seen. Whether the killer has highest score versus the second highest score seems pretty strongly correlated to the kill count. The reason I think it would be interesting to pivot that out is because I sometimes see people claiming that bloodpoint scores are biased toward the killer and assume that the killer tends to get the highest score even when they lose which I’m skeptical on. Without objective data though it’s difficult to tell what bias if any actually exists.
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I think a lot of players overlook the time savings from Cages and aren’t caging enough. Caging someone saves you around 8-12 seconds on average versus hooking the survivor. That means if you Cage a survivor you are gaining an additional 10 seconds or so to start a new chase. For context you can cross maps end to end in 20 seconds, so 10 seconds extra time can get you halfway across the map to your next target.
Now if the survivor you downed is far away from all the gens and other survivors then hooking them might be better if they aren’t on deathhook since it will force another survivor to spend extra time to come to that hook for a rescue. But if there’s another survivor on even your same half of the map then Caging is more time efficient. The fact that it also negates any chance of a pallet or flashlight save or Decisive Strike, etc, is a bonus.
Putting a time limit on Torment would just needlessly nerf an ability that players already are underusing. If anything it could maybe use a slight buff, say by making only someone rescued from a Cage lose their Torment instead of the rescuer also losing Torment. (I’m not sure why the rescuer loses Torment in the first place, it’s not like survivors don’t already have a huge incentive to rescue each other, it just feels like an unnecessary restriction on Torment.)