dugman
dugman
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If there's one thing I've learned it's that guessing what the killer's mechanics will be is really hard. Even knowing that the killer is tied to birds and there's art involved in either the killer or survivor still leaves open all sorts of things.
- Summon birds to attack or harass survivors?
- Put down birds as additional scouts to help keep an eye on the map?
- Maybe they're half human half bird and attack with talons?
- Maybe they're actually able to fly to a limited extent? (The devs have previously said they've played around with flying killers but had trouble because they're hard to balance, but maybe they can fudge it by having them, for instance, turn into a flock of birds that kind of teleports or moves at high speed around the map?)
- Maybe survivors who disturb the crows on the map suffer an additional penalty, like being Oblivious or Hindered?
- Maybe the art is the ability, and the killer can "draw" walls or things to block survivors?
I guess the good news is the next PTB is probably next week, so we'll find out soon! 😄
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One thing with Meyers is, like all killers but to an even greater degree, you have to consider balancing him assuming he’s using add-ons since what add-ons he’s using can change his playstyle dramatically. Some greatly increase the speed he can charge up, or he can take a long time to charge but it lasts forever, or he can opt to not be able to get Evil 3 at all and get other bonuses, or he can take a ridiculously long time to charge but be able to kill during a chase. It’s quite a variety, and they’re all playable (albeit some a bit trickier to pull off than others).
So it’s important to consider, I think, how universally increasing his charge up speed would impact those various styles. The main downside to some of them is that they intentionally take a long time to complete. And others are already fairly quick to charge. What happens then when the base speed is increased significantly? Or likewise, if you change how Evil 1 works, how does that impact Evil 1 Scratched Mirror Meyers? Or if you change Evil 2 what happens with Vanity Mirror Meyers?
I’m not saying they can’t tweak his base stats and I have no particular opinion on how good or bad Meyers is in general. All I’m saying is you can’t balance him assuming he’s not running add-ons, you have to assume various possible add-on builds and what may or may not additionally have to be changed there is you change his base stats.
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If people aren't using the new perks as intended it would just throw off the data the devs use as they review them over the next month or two for a balance pass. Just use the perks normally, and in a couple months if either Boon needs to be adjusted the devs can simply tweak their effects or radius. (There's not even a need to change how Boons are placed or reset, all they have to do is tune the healing speed of Circle of Healing if necessary and adjust the radius of Shadow Step, again if necessary.)
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@coolmacc said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2616251#Comment_2616251
Im not new and I said daily Rituals not achievements. A survivor daily can be escape a trial with Nancy but if she’s level 1 it’s not easy at all. A level 1 killer can easily do ability’s right kill challenges
I think some of the reason you’re getting the responses you’re getting is that your subject line is “Killer challenges are too easy” when really you seem to be complaining about “Survivor challenges are too hard”. Your title gives the impression you want killers to have a harder time completing challenges, when really what you seem to be asking for is survivors to have an easier time completing challenges.
Maybe consider changing the title?
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@EntitySpawn said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2616250#Comment_2616250
Well I'd assume I'm high mmr (not trying to be cocky but I'm very experienced) and I'm paired with lower to balance.
It amazes me how often people dont work on gens lol. Honestly not sure what a good escape rate would be
Theoretically the game is supposed to be aiming for about a 50% chance of escape. The average kills per game across all killers is around 54%, so if you're escaping more than 50% of the time you're doing above average.
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@EntitySpawn said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2615975#Comment_2615975
It was on swamp (one with the big boat) I always mix up the names but I think pale rose. Ran all over the map lol
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2615976#Comment_2615976
Honestly I don't escape that often, like probably a fair amount but I'd say alot of the time I get players that dont want to do the objective for some reason. Does make me doubt if mmr is working or I'm paired with low mmr to balance to the killers
Maybe? Hard to tell but I think the game does try and balance the killer against the average of the survivor's ratings. 🤷♂️
It would be nice if the game kept your personal stats so you could easily see how often you escape, for instance. I guess you could always try tracking it by hand if you're curious though, might be interesting to see your own stats based on the other killers for instance.
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@Laluzi said:
I'm hoping for a Circle of Healing healing speed nerf, or some limit on how much boons can be blessed. Kinda doubt that'll happen so soon, though.
My guess is they're still analyzing Circle of Healing and Shadow Step, I think their schedule is something like they review new characters over about three months and then do a full balance pass (aside from hot fixes for urgent things like unsnuffable totems or game crashes, etc.)
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“Tunneling” is a made up complaint by survivors upset they were downed in favor of someone else. From every angle there’s no world where it’s unfair or a reportable offense.
- As a killer if I see an injured survivor and a healthy survivor, obviously I’ll target the injured one. I can down them but not the other. Breaking off from an injured survivor because a healthy one is trying ti distract me is terrible play.
- If I have the choice of downing and hooking someone two times in a row versus hooking two different people one at a time, obviously the better choice is hooking the one person twice because it gets them out of the game more quickly. Again, intentionally killing one person at a time and spreading hooks is bad play.
- If I think I can down someone in a reasonable timeframe then why would I not try and do it? Why break off chase if it looks like I’ll get them down soon? So again, chasing someone makes sense versus breaking off assuming I’m actually able to hit them and down them
- Finally since survivors can heal each other relatively quickly, if I can get a down in a reasonable timeframe then I should versus getting injuries on two people, since injuring two people is significantly effective than downing one person.
I’m not saying toxic behavior doesn’t exist on the killer side. Standing around hitting survivors on hooks or intentionally making all the survivors bleed out for five minutes or however long it takes at the end of the match is obviously obnoxious and unnecessary. But “tunneling”, i,e, trying to down someone you think you can down, is definitely not toxic, let alone close to being reportable,
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If the other survivors are dead, and the hatch is open, the kililer can hypothetically bodyblock the last survivor indefinitely.
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@BrokenSouI said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/292443/the-shape-question
Ghost face has to stalk individually. Myers effects everyone. One oblivious survivor and keep fueling Myers. So there should be a cap. It should just be adjusted a little.
Ghost Face can stalk multiple people simultaneously. It’s not that uncommon to get two or even three marked at once if they’re all on the same generator.
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@Zozzy said:
They don't reset rank.
They reset the visible Grades, like others said though they’re not used for matchmaking. They don’t reset the hidden MMR.
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@Micheal said:
Ash is beautiful thanks dev for making the other characters look stupid.lol
Ash’s puppet hand is maybe my favorite survivor art detail. 🙂
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That’s not how I play Bubba. I still got yelled at by a survivor though because they were stupid enough to keep running near me trying flashlights and hook rescues when I’m not that far away. After the match he also complained about me “running NOED” which I wasn’t doing either. (I think he thought Thanatophobia was NOED since the icons are kind of similar.)
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MMR is about longer term averages. Sounds like you escape more often than they probably do so in the long run you probably have a higher rating.
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@JohnWeak said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2614438#Comment_2614438
Terrible kill rates, especially when we know that all skill level are represented.
And it was before SBMM/boons.
Today if the killer doesn't face camp = 0 kill.
Along those lines it would be interesting to see what the percentages are for 0 kills, 1 kill, 2 kills, 3 kills and 4 kills among matches where all five players are in the top, say, 5% or 10% of players. (So filter all matches in the last month down to just ones where all players had very high hidden MMRs and count how many games fall in those five buckets.) I think that histogram could give a decent idea of where the game is overall at high level. Ideally most matches would be in the 1-3 range assuming they’re shooting for some survivors live and some die being the most common outcomes.
Even better is having those numbers listed for each killer. That would give an idea of if a particular killer is off the mark somehow.
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@burt0r said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2614625#Comment_2614625
Which means that those stats are a horrible indicator for balancing as otherwise the devs would need to seriously lower nurses skill floor, which would be ridiculous.
The devs actually say when they show these numbers there’s more to balancing the killers than this, they just like showing the chart because players are curious.
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If I understand it right the devs use the BP cap to help pace the game experience when a new chapter comes out. It forces players to play for a while with new characters before they have every perk at rank 3, and it makes it more likely that a wider variety of people will be trying out different types of perk and add-on combinations simply by virtue of nobody having everything available automatically right out of the gate,
Whether or not that benefit is worth players getting annoyed at the cap I have no idea. Personally the cap doesn’t really bother me much, I just buy a bloodweb before each match, maybe more if I’m at the cap or just prestiged or got a new character that I want to at least get to level 15 (so I have all four perk slots). But that’s just me, I get that other people just want to horde up points for releases.
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@Lordofweed said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2614438#Comment_2614438
Where do you get those graphs and statistics from?
It was a screen grab from a dev chat around 2021-10-07
1,393 votes and 254 comments so far on Reddit -
The supposition that if you play well your rating can go down is misleading because, on average, it won’t. Sure you can do a bunch of gens and do well in a chase and still get killed, but the more likely result is if you do those things you’ll escape, so on average your rating will tend to correlate to your escape rate. And ultimately escaping is the actual goal of the game - doing gens and being good in a chase are just tools to get to that goal. So it makes sense that the rating system should focus primarily on the escapes and kills versus other tasks that get you to those goals.
And the old ranking system definitely had its flaws. It was as much or more about time spent in matches than outcomes. Longer matches give you more points and raise your grade/rank, shorter matches give you less emblems and point and lower rank. If I remember right, as a killer you could possibly Mori 3 people, one escapes by hatch, and you lose rank because not enough else happened in the match. Or you could run around, break every pallet and kick every gen and get some hooks but get zero kills and gain a notch in rank, even though you spent time pretty inefficiently.
So I don’t have data one way or another on what the median results are for matches under the current system, but I do remember the old ranking system having issues and I know in my own games currently I’m generally ok with the matches I’m getting.
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@themoobs1984 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2614823#Comment_2614823
10% increased survival rate to who? The SWF playing against a highly skilled killer or the SWF playing against a newbie or a mid tier killer? I think a lot of these posts about SWFs are from the lower tier killers that get matched up with these elite SWF squads. The matchmaking system is subpar.
This was from two years ago, it used the old rank system, and if I recall when the devs posted it they had broken their data down between “all ranks” and “red ranks”. I don’t remember off-hand if the SWF percentage was from all ranks combined or red ranks.
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@themoobs1984 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2613799#Comment_2613799
I do think generator repair speed should be slowed down and regress speed should be sped up. That would alleviate some problems people have with SWF groups. I don't think solo should get any sort of buff though. You're on the right track though.
I'm not entirely sure the generator speed is too fast actually. The devs are trying to balance the game so the most common results are some survivors live and some die, but that implies the most common result in a match between equal opponents is the gens are completed and the doors are opened. So assuming the game is balanced you should see the gens done most of the time even if you play well assuming the survivors are also playing well.
Now if the game data has that the most common results are instead in the 0-2 survivors killed range in matches between equally high level players then that would indicate the gens are too quick. But if instead the averages are more in that 1-3 range then the gen speeds are probably about where they should be. Without a way to actually look at data summaries of lots of matches, though, it's impossible to actually tell. The only thing you can know for sure is that if you're expecting 50% of your games to end up with the gates closed then you're overestimating how often that should happen. And similarly if in your own games the most common outcomes are 1-3 kills then that would be an indication gens are going at about the right rate.
There is also the complicating factor of how much benefit a SWF gives in terms of survival rate. I recall a couple years ago the devs released some numbers showing that basically being in a 2 person SWF gave about a +3% increased survival chance, 3 person about a +6% chance and 4 person a +10% increase survival chance. So there is a noticeable difference with 3 and especially 4 person SWFS, hence the requests to balance them out with solo players. Fortunately most survivors aren't in 4-person SWFs, but they are probably more prevalent at high level than in the average game.
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I’m a terrible Slinger so I have no strong opinion, other than that the change made him less fun to play since his turn speed while aiming feels like swimming in syrup, it’s disgustingly slow.
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@EntitySpawn said:
Kills mean nothing.
Kills and escapes are the main thing the matchmaking algorithm tracks. Whether or not you as a player care about them is another story, but the game and the devs obviously care about kills.
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@BrokenSouI said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2614575#Comment_2614575
I mean...What...? You don't think nurse is the worst killer in game ?
Technically Nurse IS the worst killer in the game for most people. But the best Nurses are among the best killers.
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I think I started after Oni was added, so December 2019?
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@PanicSquid said:
No new kill rate information has been released since the anniversary event, to my knowledge.
Personal experiences don't have enough data points to make any reasonable conclusions about the overall state of the game.
Just FYI they did show a chart below for July through September.
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How long it takes to master a skill is an interesting topic in general. Roughly speaking the rule of thumb is it take 10,000 hours or 9 years of regular practice to master a skill. It can take about 6 months to become reasonably proficient at a new skill. So if you want to learn to play guitar, for instance, it’s about 6 months to be able to do it reasonably and 9 years to be a professional level master player.
Now how long it takes to master a game like DbD depends on how hard that skill is compared to, say, learning to play a musical instrument or learning to play a sport or learning to play poker or chess. All those things take about, as above, six months to be actually really good and maybe 9 years to do at master level. DbD hasn’t actually been around 9 years, but you could also note that some general video gaming skills from other multiplayer games translate to DbD, so if you’ve played video games a long time some of that time can help speed up the process of mastering DbD. But overall my own guess is that because the game has only been around a few years, and is constantly changing and adding new killers, on average the longer people have played regularly the better they are along some sort of asymptotic curve, with high level tournament mastery in most or all characters taking multiple years of play. Mastery in a single character probably takes less time, but still might be on the scale of a couple years versus a couple months. (Assuming that ratio of 1/2 year to 9 years between proficiency and mastery remains somewhat fixed.)
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@Vampwire said:
Title is pretty self explanatory. Another killer who's like Nurse. Different power but it plays around the games rules similar to the blinks. You can't loop it traditionally and have to improvise during chase.
I’d kind of rather they revamped Nurse a bit rather than spend a bunch of time making a second Nurse-like character.
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@Dino7281 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2614296#Comment_2614296
Super small projectile vs car projectile.
Also Huntress can flick, Deathslinger can't because of his terrible ADS mechanic that lowers FOV and sensitivity.
I definitely agree on Deathslinger’s turning speed while aiming feeling atrociously slow!
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@SadLegion said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2614296#Comment_2614296
He has much smaller hitbox than Huntress. Spear projectile speed is the same as fully winded up hatchet. Juking slinger is way easier
Interesting. I should point out though that it takes longer for a hatchet to be fully charged than Deathslinger takes to raise his rifle. So there are times where the Huntress has to throw an only partially charged hatchet or lose the shot where Deathslinger can fire normally.
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@IronKnight55 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2614304#Comment_2614304
It's only a 24m area. That's not huge. Changes aren't needed. Making healing perks and med kits not stack with CoH is actually a bigger change than you think. The perks alone are actually not OP.
I think you might have misunderstood me. I said
- Circle of Healing - maybe turn down the healing speed.
- Shadow Step - maybe adjust the radius of effect
And I say “maybe” because I have no idea if they’re in need of rebalancing or not. But hypothetically, IF the devs decided they are, then the above two bullet points would be the obvious way to go about adjusting them.
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@IronKnight55 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2614164#Comment_2614164
This would make them useless. I say just make it so med kits and healing perks don't stack with CoH. The boon perks would be 100% fine with these changes. I feel like nerfing them more than that would just make them way too weak. Everyone would just return to the same boring meta perks.
How would tweaking their numbers make them useless? If you barely change the healing speed it would have no noticeable impact for instance. It’s all relative to the degree of the change.
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@Kasamsky said:
So i played against some Deathslingers now and damn.. He is just so easy to juke now. Probably even the easiest killer out there to go against. It's like stealing a lollipop from a baby easy.
Love and prayers to everyone out there still playing this excuse of a "Killer". Stay strong..
Out of curiosity, is he easier to juke than Huntress? Because they both have kind of similar firing mechanics now (i.e. you hold the power button to draw up the weapon which takes a moment, then you can fire instantly with a shot that has a slight lead time.) I’m not talking here about how Deathslinger and Huntress are different at pallets, just asking about dodging them in a relatively open chase. Deathslinger’s shot does have a smaller hit box I think, which could be a factor, but it also travels a bit faster maybe?
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Add a mode like dbd mobile has where you can practice with bots. That would give new players a chance to practice killers and survivors in a less stressful environment, or even just let them explore the maps if they wanted (bots don’t care if you explore)
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I don’t think you need to change how Boons work to balance them. Just tweak the specific Boons effect parameters or radius
- Circle of Healing, all you have to do is lower the healing speed if you need to weaken it
- Shadowstep, just reduce the radius of effect if you need to weaken it
That’s a much simpler approach to balancing these that doesn’t upend the whole Boon system in general for these and future Boons.
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I’d like to see the end game screen changed so that instead of seeing everybody’s Grades (which aren’t used for matchmaking) you see 5% percentile brackets for the hidden MMRs. It would give a more accurate picture of where the system estimates you and your opponents are skill-wise, plus it would allow you to see how your own rating varies between different killers. And it would clear up some of the confusion on the boards when people talk about Grades being out of whack in a match thinking that the Grades are used for the matchmaking.
I have no strong opinion on good or bad the MMR is. Personally my own matches seem fine under MMR, but I have no objective dataset to look over from the game to declare what issues the MMR has or doesn’t have on a broad scale compared to the system it replaced. Mismatches can happen for all sorts of reasons, not just a problem in the algorithm, but also due to things like swfs and ragequits lowering ratings and brand new players maybe being initially set to be “average” which could put them too high initially, etc. It can also be caused by a lack of enough very high skill or very low skill players online to reliably match against each other in a reasonable timeframe, or by just dumb bad luck. Without a way to actually see your own relative rating bracket and your opponents and a way to set up a database of randomly selected matches at various skill levels it’s extremely difficult to make objective declarations about how balanced matches are or should be.
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@HealsBadMan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2613961#Comment_2613961
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/6KFXB4D00NLI/crows.jpg
In the website's code, this picture has the full "The Black Vale" anagram. My theory is confirmed.
It’s also a pretty sweet picture. 👍
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When did I say there may or may not be issues with the algorithm?
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@Kurri said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2613935#Comment_2613935
Then we agree to disagree, good day.
Fair enough 🤷♂️
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How about
Nurse
White Knit Comb (reduces lunge range on Blink attacks by 50%, gives extra bloodpoints)
Spasmodic Breath (if you hit with a blink attack you lose teleport for 60 seconds and move 115% survivor speed becoming a vanilla basic attack killer with no ability)
Perkless (it’s hard to think of a perk that makes her worse than having no perk at all)
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I agree, it’s a bit silly to hide the actual rating bracket you are in but show a Grade for you and all your opponents that a lot of players just falsely assume is used to matchmaking so end up complaining about “low/high rated players” and “imbalanced matches” while pointing to that kind of bogus Grade. It would clear up confusion if you couldn’t see opponent’s Grades and could see, say, what 5% percentile bracket you are in the actual ratings. And since your rating varies by killer it would also be interesting to see how high or low you are rated on various killers too.
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@Kurri said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2613808#Comment_2613808
But if those 2 kills were on survivors of higher mmr with you, then your mmr goes up, if either were significantly higher then you, then your mmr goes up. If the only kill you get in a match is a survivor with significantly higher mmr than you - your mmr will go up. If the survivor escapes/dies is close to mmr with you there isn't much of a change, and if the survivor who escapes/dies is lower mmr than you you're mmr will go down.
In most cases for Killers if you get at least 1-2 sacrifices your mmr will go up.
In most cases for Survivor your mmr will remain in the center unless you mostly play in swf's where you escape back to back 10-20 times. Because players tend to die a lot when playing solo.
So Killers normally gain mmr, solo survivors will normally stay the same or go down in mmr, and swf will normally gain mmr.
This is assuming average to good players. It's a terrible system.
Actually it’s probably false that your rating goes up with only 1 kill, in fact it probably goes down unless the person you killed happens to be higher rated than you and the people who escape are all lower rated than you. In normal circumstance 1 kill means you go up a bit from that but then go down three times for the three escapes. And typically your kill won’t be the highest rated survivor either since they’re probably the best on their team at escaping, instead your kill will more often be one of the weaker lower rated survivors so the boost you get will be small from it and you’ll still lose rating for the other three.
So no, killers don’t “usually gain rating”.
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@DangerScouse said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2613756#Comment_2613756
So the killer needs 2 kills to "be on par", with no up or down movement by this logic. Did I understand correctly?
More or less yeah, 2 kills and 2 escapes would mean your rating doesn’t change too much. It would change a little, though, simply because the amount the killer goes up or down for each survivor depends on their relative ratings to each other. If you kill a higher rated survivor your rating goes up more than if you kill a lower rated survivor, and vice versa for escapes. So between that and timing possibly influencing it as well means your rating will still probably change slightly one way or another on a 2 kill match depending on the exact ratings and details.
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@themoobs1984 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2613421#Comment_2613421
So is it fun with friends or just an easy way to win? This forum talks about toxicity and unhealthiness alot but which is it? Because I also believe coordinated groups are unfair but people should have the right to play with friends. Why not just make it to where groups of friends can play together but it doesn't count as a ranked game? Seems to be the middle ground here.
I suspect if they tried to separate queues into “no swfs allowed” and “swfs allowed” it would be terrible for both queues. Something like half of all games involve a swf group of some size, so you’d be bifurcating the survivors between the two pools. And there are a lot of killers who don’t like going against 3-4 person swfs who would just go to the non-swf pool. So you’d end up with longer queue times and worse matchups in both queues because of the lopsidedness.
Personally I think the better long term solution would be buff up solo survivor play so they get some of the same sorts of information on the other survivors that swfs have, like maybe making Kindred a base survivor ability. Then to compensate slow gen progress overall to make up for the overall buff to the survivor side. That would keep matches at about the same game length and such as they currently are but would even the playing field and results between games with 3-4 person swfs and games that are solo or 2-person swfs.
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@R2k said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2613766#Comment_2613766
I'm still not sure it does. When devs or mods gave an example, they didn't mention game length.
It wasn’t mentioned directly by the devs, there were some other posts about it though such as one from Scott Jund where people examined the underlying mechanics.
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@R2k said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2613762#Comment_2613762
I never heard someone called theater is same as Replay but if u say so....
Well if I misread what they meant I’m sure they’ll correct me. 🤷♂️
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@R2k said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2613756#Comment_2613756
He didn't ask about numbers, he ask if kills matter. And kills/escape are only way to rise your mmr.
Right, I was just replying to your comment that it “doesn’t matter what happens in between”.
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I’d love a Supernatural DLC pack
- Winchesters as the survivors
- A Demon as the killer
- The Bunker as the map
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@R2k said:
Spectator mode would be ok as long as u can't see other side. Otherwise it can be easily abused by friends.
I think the original poster means watching replays of matches after they’re done.
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@R2k said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2613692#Comment_2613692
On the latest Faq. Kill = win, escape = win. Doesn't matter what happens in between.
It’s slightly more complicated. The order of when someone gets killed and how long the match takes apparently also impacts how much someone gains or loses in the hidden rating. That’s because once two survivors are dead it becomes much more likely for another survivor to die, for instance, so they don’t adjust downward or upward as much on the third kill as the second. Likewise a really quick 4k or 4 escape makes the ratings go up or down more than a longer match.
But otherwise, yeah, kills and escapes are presumably the most important factors. If survivor is killed their rating goes down and the killer’s goes up, if they escape vice versa. How much it goes up or down depends a bit on the details.