dbdthegame
dbdthegame
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@adsads123123123123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3496457#Comment_3496457
They just leave the loop. It's the same thing as Knight but worse.
That's why you pre-trap strong loops, then funnel them into it, instead of trapping the loop as you play it. Remember hag is very short, and you're playing as a 4.7. You shouldn't have any trouble mindgaming fillers, even moderately strong ones.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3496653#Comment_3496653
TBF great doctor can get hit at shack (dropped pallet) better then great pinhead, but otherwise 100% agreed.
A doc will never get a hit at shack with a dropped pallet unless the survivor severely misplays. It takes longer for Doc to go all the way around shack than it does for the survivor to go off shock cooldown and vault.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3496448#Comment_3496448
i think his anti-loop is little to weak against survivor that hold-w correctly and efficient break chains. his chain hunt is pretty good and is relatively strong if the player succeeds in activating the chain hunt. the anti-loop is a bit too weak to call him strong.
His antiloop can basically guarantee a hit against most pallets in the game, except for the safest. It requires significant skill input from the Pinhead player, in predicting movement, putting down an unreactable portal, and dropping a chain from an angle that will guarantee the player is stuck until he can get the hit. A lot of very safe fillers and even tiles are entirely unsafe against a good Pinhead player, to include shack. Not to mention, his antiloop also doubles as a chase power as you can deny players a lot of "hold W" distance with chains.
It is by no means a "weak" antiloop. I would say it's even stronger than Clown and Doctor's antiloop.
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@El_Shmelle said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3496448#Comment_3496448
I said not only about Pinhead. This thing is coming to all killers, and all you need to do is go, damage gen, try to damage surv if they're allowing you to do that, try to hook etc. Only tier-1 killers are still not very touched by this, but we've got the Nurse that's been nerfed. And that was ok. She was too strong in compare with the others. And now we have only Nurse mains who are still play Nurse, but almost no newcomes.
I've never seen any Pinhead using Hoarder yet. Still, that doesn't mean that this perk was very good for new players. But using Hoarder could've save your time, you could not going looking for the box, chasing the surv with it instead. I don't think this is bad. By this logic, I can say, that any anti-genrush perk user is weak so he couldn't protect gens.
No, comparing gen slowdown to Hoarder on Pinhead is extremely disingenuous. Gen slowdown is NECESSARY to slow down gens since killers have no basekit ability to do so. Pinhead's box logic is a skill dimension to the killer which Hoarder nullified entirely. It turned tracking the box into a dumb "follow the notification" game which enabled even bad Pinhead players to maintain constant box pressure with no skill required. This would be akin to having a perk that lets Nurse automatically get hits by pressing M2 twice with no major input required from the player; it removes an entire skill dimension from the killer.
It was rightfully nerfed.
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I've been having lots of fun with Waterlogged shoe+Scarred hand. Use hand to block strong vaults and pallets and you'll have a better time.
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Smash Hit is fine. Some Youtuber making a video bullying baby killers with it doesn't make it OP.
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Good. Franklins and Hoarder were always crutches for bad Pinheads. Learn good box spawn logic, Pinhead is still very strong.
Name one scenario where you would need to stand on box for 5 seconds outside of egregious griefing.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3496366#Comment_3496366
There were patches that were survivor sided and there were patches that were killer sided. I think noone will argue, that 6.1 was killer sided. The patch where genkick meta was introduced. CoH+self healing basically destroyed, DH basically destroyed, etc.
Genkick was destroyed in the same patch that COH and self heal were gutted.
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@BlightedDolphin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3496281#Comment_3496281
Shelter Woods is still killer sided, but the main building helped survivors more. It’s better than before even if it’s still not a great map for survivor.
Borgo is definitely not balanced at all. It’s one of the least balanced maps. A billion safe pallets that all chain together is not at all balanced (unless you’re Nurse).
Good. Garden is the worst map and should absolutely be nerfed.
Shelter Woods is very survivor sided, what? The main is incredibly strong with a lot of strong windows and pallets, every tree filler is a god vault against an M1 killer with proper checkspot use, and the map is massive.
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Because if you cleanse, you give her more uses of one of the best chase powers in the game. The only time you should ever cleanse against Plague is:
Endgame
You're on death hook and you have a fountain that's across the map from remaining objectives
She has less than 4 available fountains, and your entire team cleanses with you to refresh all her power uses.
Beyond that, it's much easier to loop a tall M1 killer with a trail with one health state than a corrupt Plague with two.
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@joeyspeehole said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3495050#Comment_3495050
People also don’t just get Boon Circle of Healing right out of the box; they have to buy Mikaela Reid to get it. Gutting a perk like that robs from the gamer experience. Especially from the people who had just purchased the character right before that update came out. That also happened around the time when every killer was doing the 3 gen thing. It made it so much harder to fight that strategy. When you have Adrenaline and that last generator pops, at least you have a chance.
It also takes a while to bless a Boon or to cleanse a Hex, while killers can just stomp out the Boons. These kinds of things take the survivors away from the generators, so it should make the killers happy.
If Dead by Daylight guts Adrenaline wait times to enter matches will probably go up to 20 minutes per match.
People also didn't get old Eruption out of the box. They had to buy Nemesis and prestige him. Putting a price tag on something overpowered makes the game, by definition, P2W. And "this overpowered perk is attached to a character you have to unlock" isn't a good argument in defense of old COH. Either the perk is objectively broken and needs to get nerfed (which it was), or it isn't. Whether or not it comes from a DLC character is meaningless.
Also COH got gutted in the same patched that killed COB+OC. "happened around the time killers were doing the whole 3-gen thing" no, it happened at the same time, and it killed both COH and gen kick perks. Killers were no longer able to hold a 3-gen with COB alone, and survivors were no longer to reset in a corner of the map alone.
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@For_The_People said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3492384#Comment_3492384
Of course I understand that and I don’t disagree with tunnelling not being toxic per se but as valid a strategy as it is, it can be insufferable for those entering the game. Many of the more recent new starters won’t have as much motivation to continue playing (I say this as I know of at least 20 people who started and gave up soon afterwards due to the horrendous learning curve for solos starters).
new starters in the past would have at least had more mitigating factors such as being able to use DS or more ‘broken maps’ with more infinites and so on. And I’m not commenting that those things should still exist, but I’m trying to illustrate that newbies in the past had more crutch and handholding to learn how to loop better. Recent newbies will not and so tunnelling is far more brutal and unforgiving. It’s easy to say “They should practice and get better” but the reality is that it is off-putting for more people and can be detrimental for the health of the game.
I agree on this, but also, this is where MMR comes in to play, no?
DBD is a pretty unique game in terms of how its gameplay functions. There is little transferrable skill and a lot of new players are expected to absorb a lot of information early on. At least, MMR ensures new players are segregated from experienced players. To be fair, new killers will likely win a lot of their games, but it's unlikely they will tunnel or even understand how.
This is probably the only good argument I've seen against tunneling so far: that it can dissuade fresh installs who don't even understand the game mechanics yet, but I would argue this is moreso a problem with DBD's learning resources than anything else.
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@versacefeng said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3492490#Comment_3492490
If it's intended than why can they not be done on a controller?
They can. LilithOmen did a showcase, every Blight tech can be done on controller.
@Star99er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3492041#Comment_3492041
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/A8QNDY37NFCJ/img-5957.jpeg
It’s not really a skill issue when it doesn’t have counterplay. Also it’s a bug so there’s that as well. 🤷♂️
Hug tech is probably the easiest thing a Blight can do that you can counter. You can simply leave the loop, you can run towards him and away from the loop to cause him to lose you, you can swerve out wide around the corner as he flicks tightly around it to cause him to whiff, or you can simply recognize that he's about to do a hug tech and leave the loop preemptively, leaving him to waste his tokens and mindgame himself.
@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3494632#Comment_3494632
Yes. Every bug should be removed or fixed. Unless devs like it and make it feature.
Sure, remove hug tech. And while we're at it, let's fix all the broken collisions where Blight rushes at a tree/edgemap wall/stump and simply slides off into the sunset while the survivor makes free distance. And let's also remove crouch tech, and the glitch that causes his lethal rush swing to whiff if the survivor is point blank with him and he M2+M1s too fast, and the instant fatigue glitch, and the glitch that causes a delay in token recovery after he gets stunned by a pallet, and all the rest of the glitches that affect his gameplay. Then let's see all the closet bump logic Blights come out of the woodwork, and you can see what "no counterplay" truly looks like.
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@Rovend said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3493686#Comment_3493686
I cant have a discussion if you are just going to disregard everything i say. I gave you a list, but if you truly cant understand hoy any of these changes affect tunneling then there is no point in continuing this.
Be well
They literally don't affect tunneling at all, but I'll accept your concession.
DH was only nerfed once btw (the most recent update). Endurance DH was stronger than distance DH.
If you are gonna respond, I'd like for you to explain how old COH or old medkits is gonna stop you from being tunneled off hook. I'll wait.
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@Yoshirama said:
Imagine complaining about a niche combo
Niche? You can instantly deny a down while killer is still in recovery animation, with no counterplay, with both people getting BT-tier Endurance. This is far from niche. This is straight up overpowered.
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@Rovend said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3493667#Comment_3493667
Since 6.1.0, killers got
- Faster breaking pallet
- Faster recover on hit
- Reduced survivor distance on hit
- +10sec to each gen
- nerfed Ds, 5 to 3sec stun and deactivate in endgame
- OTR indirectly nerfed when enduramce stacking was removed
- nerfed DH 4 times (invincible dash removed, window to use from 1sec to 0.5sec, endurance stacking removed, now only two uses per game)
- Locker saves removed
- Lightburn and unique flashlight interactions removed
- nerf COH
- nerf Medkits
All these changes directly or indirectly buffed tunneling and all this happened in a year. So yeah, aside from basekit bt, tunneling is in a very strong position.
"aside from basekit BT" which is literally 10s of free time you have to run to a pallet, with actual BT extending that to 20s, with OTR giving you up to 80s. In the mean time, you mention 10 different things that killers got that have absolutely nothing to do with tunneling (outside of DS).
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@Rovend said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3493593#Comment_3493593
Look, i never said that OTR is a terrible perk as survivors really have a lot of weak, barely useful, situational perks .
All i am saying is that OTR's main strength as an antitunneling perk should not be an endurace-like effect, as it was already nerfed when endurance stacking was removed and being hit with Basekit BT can hamper its effect.
Regardless you consider tunneling good or bad for dbd, it is no surprise that tunneling is being overused and is stronger than ever since 6.1.0. . Survivors really are in need of at least one perk that can put some stop to tunneling and does not have a mountain of restrictions like DS or can be cancelled by other mechanics being present.
Tunneling is literally weaker than ever, what are you on about? We have basekit BT, OTR, Dead Hard only working after unhooks, and Pain Res is only for first SH. We're long past the days of no BT where you could slap someone back on the hook immediately after they come off.
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@MDRSan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3493562#Comment_3493562
Wanting to win, playing to win, actually winning, and playing in a way that frustrating and unfun to the other side are not mutually exclusive concepts. What I don't understand is why you don't seem to understand why this particular tactic is commonly viewed as poor sportsmanship by the other side. If you want to disregard others and play the way you want that is perfectly within your rights. What isn't within your rights is to say someone is wrong to call a tactic bad or scummy just because you feel entitled to play that way and it doesn't affect your personal enjoyment of the game.
I was unaware it was up to the survivor where they go down. Next time I'm on a survivor I'll try asking the killer if they would mind walking over to a specific area with me before they land a blow.
Yes, you can kill a survivor whenever you want. What you can't do is keep a gen from progressing whenever you want. If one survivor is on 2 hooks and everyone else is on zero you have no one but yourself to blame as you clearly didn't go after anyone else. You created the situation that you claim now ties your hands. It also should be considered that maybe the reason the game is down to 1 or 2 gens in that situation is that you didn't put any pressure on 3/4 of their team.
I do understand why people view it as poor sportsmanship: entitlement. And don't get me wrong, there is entitlement on both sides, but survivors are exceptional in expecting they can shame and guilt a killer into playing suboptimally. Bring slowdown perks? Toxic. Tunnel someone out? Toxic. It is absolutely within my right to call someone out for saying a tactic is scummy, if the tactic is, in fact, not scummy, and you haven't demonstrated that it is. You don't get to label a tactic scummy just because it hurts your feelings, and shame every player out of doing it. Now, I'll admit, killers do bear a certain amount of responsibility in dictating the pace of the game if they happen to be playing against solo Q. If you have a fresh install as one of your solo Q teammates, and the killer relentlessly tunnels them out, that's scummy, because odds are they can win very easily even without doing so, since the survivor will likely waste a lot of time and the team will be playing with 3 people. But that's more so a problem with the MMR system than it is with the killer himself. If the killer is playing against moderately competent survivors who are familiar with the game mechanics and tunnels, that's not being scummy. That's just playing to win.
Check this out: I'm a survivor in a deadzone. Killer finds me, I take the hit and run to an area with tiles. Now, if I go down, I'm either going down in a tile, or between tiles. Either way, I didn't go down in a deadzone. To go down in a deadzone, you have to be injured, be in a deadzone, and get caught off-position by the killer. And yes, that is 100% a skill issue.
Wrong, you can't kill a survivor when you want. You can kill a survivor only when all the following has been done: survivor is down, survivor is on death hook, no one is around for a flashlight save, survivor isn't down on a pallet where they can be pallet saved, there is a nearby hook, there isn't enough people nearby to take hits or sabo the hook, and survivor doesn't have DS. Some of these are within the control of the killer, others are not. Being able to find a death hook survivor on command isn't something most killers on the roster can do. Dropping chase on your tunnel out will often lead to them disappearing into thin air.
We already addressed the whole "just pressure gens bro" argument. I'm not going in circles here. Address my response or stop repeating yourself.
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@HamsterEnjoyer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3491801#Comment_3491801
Its more like me telling you as someone with an insane amount of playtime and experience with her "Hey there's a plethora of alternative playstyles she has that are fun and effective" then you saying "NO YOURE WRONG SHE CAN ONLY DEFEND GENS SHES HORRIBLE AT EVERYTHING ELSE!!!!" Like okay you clearly didn't play her, experiment with her, or take time to actually learn her kit that is a problem on you not Skull Merchant
Skull Merchant doesn't have some magical skill ceiling that only you have reached. She's a mechanically limited killer. Just the same way Trapper doesn't have some magical skill ceiling. In fact, I would argue Trapper has a higher skill ceiling than SM. At least, with Trapper you can hide some traps in very unexpected spots where survivors wouldn't expect them. No such thing on SM. There are no cracked mechanical plays that will turn Trapper into an S-tier killer, just the same way, there is no cracked plays that will turn SM into a good killer outside of her 3-gen potential. You don't need to put 3k hours into the killer to understand her. I would argue a player on DBD with enough experience could have seen the problem with SM before even playing her, or before her release, and a lot of people DID, just by understanding what her power can do.
With all that said, I've put enough time into SM to try different playstyles. Her only efficient one is 3-gen. You might get lucky with running a meme setup and having the stars align and everything happens how it's supposed to, but that's gonna be a one in a 100 game. To be consistent, you HAVE to play 3-gen, and that's it. It's boring, and it's stupid.
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@Rovend said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3492959#Comment_3492959
sigh🤦♂️, it is obvious that we will never reach an agreement but i'll answer one last time.
Call these 'invented scenarios' or whatever, this does not change the fact that any killer receives a notification when a survivor is unhooked and many killers dont bother trying to chase another survivors and choose to go back to the hook to tunnel. This happens, and it happens A LOT, if you dont agree i cant do nothing for you.
Any of the situations i gave you are situations were any killer can bypass the unhooker and hit you regardless because YOU suggested that the unhooker can escort you to a safe pallet to make this perk work, it does not mean OTR cant give you any kind of advantage in chase but ultimately it will not save your life.
OTR has nothing to do with a nurse, you may survive a little more if you are able to reach some loop with high walls that lets you lose LOS but that's it. as i said before, you have more chances of reaching that loop if you slap chase perks like MFT/Lithe/Resilience rather than OTR. and if she has aura reading perks, you are truly better by using distortion that is better than OTR because it also hides your scratch marks.
Dodge a wesker? if i am telling you that the wesker is dashing through the unhooker i obviously meant a situation where i can't possibly dodge the hit. Seriouly, i dont need to be pointing out that a wesker can close the distance with the 2 dashes in seconds and make you deep wounded by hitting the unhooker. In that case, you are losing OTR the moment you are unhooked.
" Either way, if you get unhooked with a fully revved Bubba in your face, there's no perk in the game (outside DS) that will save you." that's what i mean, even while using OTR with its 3 strong effects, you will still die if the bubba decides to go back to the hook to tunnel you.
"Spirit? Good luck to the Spirit player considering sound is her primary cue while in power and you're now completely quiet. OTR slaps Spirit the hardest out of any killer." Good luck finding a good spirit who is not using MDR + DCB combo so they can go fast and see the killer instinct when they are close. Dried cherry blossom screws over OTR like nothing.
Resilience and mft will allow you to reach others loops better than OTR, and create more distance instead of hoping that OTR does not get useless after 5 sec.
"OTR doesn't require another person to do what it does, but a person taking a hit helps conserve your Endurance and helps you be much harder to tunnel." but it does require another person to be effective, if you didnt need another survivor to cover or hope that the killer is not tunneling you hard enough that you lose endurance 5 sec in OTR would be so much better.
"If your unhooker is unhooking while injured and the killer doesn't take the free down, they're stupid. And if they decide to tunnel afterwards, you have Endurance." but they usually dont take free down, they will slug the unhooker and go for the tunnel anyway to ensure you are out of the game as soon as possible.
"If you get hooked in a deadzone, that's your problem. No perk in the game is gonna save you there." it should, if i am using a perk slot to avoid being tunneled i would expect at least to be able to reach a loop where i can try to do a mindgame.
"Yes, you can lose it after 5 seconds, or you can lose it after 60 seconds. Depends on how you decide to use it. A lot of killers will instantly drop the tunnel if they hear OTR. However, if you play like most OTR users and use it offensively, don't whine about being tunneled in post-game." and that's the problem, whether you lose it instantly or after 60 sec truly boils down to the killer so if he is tunneling you hard enough you lose your protection at the same time you lose BT. and then i have the typical killer main response of "you are using it offensively" like you have actually see me using it.
My point is that OTR does not help you when you actually need it. That you require the killer to not be tunneling you hard enough so you can actually make use of its effects which is a terrible take for a perk that tries to help you avoid being tunneled. it shouldnt have an endurance effect so the killer can nullify it when they hit you with BT.
When did I say dodge a Wesker? I said get out of dodge. Do you know what that expression means?
"Spirit using her two most broken addons doesn't care for OTR" Woah really? That's almost like saying good luck against an Alch Ring 10k hour Blight, ergo OTR is useless. It's technically true, but it's such a non-argument.
Neither Resilience nor MFT will help you reach a loop. Both perks exist to help IN a loop, not OUTSIDE of it. Resilience is worthless if you have no pallet or window to vault, and MFT won't get you to a loop if killer hooks in a deadzone and decides to wait out your BT.
And if they slug the unhooker, that means they didn't hit you, which means you still have OTR. Yeah, they have pressure with a slug and a tunnel out being chased, but that tunnel out has OTR and can take an extra hit for 80s.
You missed my point about being hooked in a deadzone entirely. You, as the player, have the option to choose where you go down. If you hold W towards a deadzone, and die in it, it's 100% your fault.
It boils down to the killer, it boils down to you, and it boils down to your unhooker. If the unhooker is unhooking with the killer in your face, yeah, you're gonna lose it instantly. If the unhooker waits until the killer is a moderate distance away and then takes a hit for you, it's up to you to take the killer to a safe loop and preserve your 2nd hit.
You're right, I don't know if we'll see eye to eye on this. You've obviously convinced yourself that OTR is a terrible perk. I'm of the opinion that if a survivor can't get value from OTR, they are terrible at the game, but maybe I'm wrong. I also know basically every comp player agrees with me that OTR is one of the strongest perks in the game, but what do they know.
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@MDRSan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3492984#Comment_3492984
There's a clear difference between survivors going to different gens and tunnelling. Survivors can't make the killer do anything and can't knock the killer out of the game. Again I ask - are you arguing being tunneled is fun? Are you arguing that whether someone does it to win is what makes whether it's fun or not relevant? Are you arguing that in a game no one is paid to play, whether one side has fun or not is irrelevant?
The entitlement goes both ways it seems. Arguing that someone else's experience is beneath consideration so long as they aren't affected is pretty entitled and a little short sighted. If enough matches are frustrating enough for one side then the other side is going to have some fun queue times.
So far as my MMR, I don't know what it is any more than you know what yours is. I will point out that if someone averages mostly 3 and 4Ks they aren't staying at the same MMR. All the pallets in the world are irrelevant if they're not anywhere near you. Same with strong jungle gym configurations. You can't outrun the killer - full stop. The only escape against a killer that can loop as well or better than you is if the killer chooses to break chase. There are no more infinites. Again, since this discussion is about tunnelling then the killer isn't going to break chase. If they did, they aren't tunnelling and then what are we even talking about?
If you think other survivors are on generators that you can't afford to have pop, then yes - you should break chase and get them regressing. You can kill a survivor whenever you want. You can only prevent a gen from popping before it's complete. Proxy camping is a double edged sword unless you've managed to set up a really tight 3 gen setup. You're choosing to secure one likely kill in exchange for giving a time advantage to the remaining survivors. They may or may not take you up on your exchange.
Survivors can absolutely do a lot to prevent tunneling. For one, they can hop in and take hits when the killer is trying to bloodlust. Two, they can take the killer to areas with no objectives when being tunneled, or very strong areas of the map to extend the chase significantly. Three, they can bring antitunnel and basically guarantee their escape when the last gen pops and they go down for 2nd hook (assuming they're not also running Adren). I would even argue, survivors have more counterplay to tunneling than killer has to, say, four toolboxes on four different gens.
Fun is subjective. But yes, some of the most fun I've had in this game was while being tunneled. And also some of the least fun. It's fun being tunneled by a huntress while I have an insane chain of loops and she's ignoring all my teammates on gens. It's not fun being tunneled off-hook by a cracked Blight with Alch Ring+Crow after he hooks me in a huge deadzone. But again, that's subjective. I'm not arguing being tunneled is fun, because fun isn't objective. I'm also arguing that whether one side has fun or not shouldn't be of any concern to the other side. The goal of the game is to win. If someone wants to invent their own goals while within a trial and have fun while doing so, that's completely fine. Some squads go into a game with no intent of escaping, with their only intent being to bully the killer relentlessly with flashlights and Head On plays. That killer may enjoy finally downing all of them and getting the 4k. In this scenario, both sides had fun. But neither side is responsible for the other side's fun. I say, do whatever is most conducive to achieving your own fun in the game, as long as you're not using outright unfair or broken strategies/items (BNPs, MFT, old Eruption+COB+OC, 3-gen merchant). The other side's expectations of you matter very little.
How is your experience my problem? I've had bad experiences with survivors BMing when they 4-out even after I go out of my way to 8-hook, while playing a weaker killer, and trying to play as nice as possible, because they viewed the fact I outplayed them so easily at so many loops as toxic. In this scenario, I had no fun getting BM'd, and I took it even more personal because I was going out of my way to try and give them a chance, when I could have very easily secured the win by playing sweaty. Both sides go into games knowing what to expect, queue times are fine where they are with people tunneling and genrushing.
You're right, I don't know your MMR, and I don't know my own. I just know I used to hold the same opinion as you: that tunneling is completely unnecessary, that I can easily land a 4k on a survivor-sided map on a D tier killer while running meme perks. Then I started playing with the big boys, and even while playing Blight and ending my chases in 30 seconds, I'm still losing gens left and right. When you get to a point where you start playing against really good survivors consistently, you'll sing a different tune.
I've already told you, if you get hooked in a deadzone, that is 100% on you. That's not the killer's fault they chose to go down in a deadzone. And if the killer carries you to a more barren area, your team has the option to take hits for you to escort you to somewhere a little safer.
No, you can't kill a survivor whenever you want. As soon as you have one survivor on 2 hooks and everyone else is on 0 hooks, the tunnel-out is going to start deep stealthing, while the others will be as loud and disruptive as possible. Good luck finding your tunnel out when they hide in a locker in some corner of the map as soon as they hear TR. Are you gonna spend that time trying to defend your last 1-2 gens, or are you going to start hoping you find this immersed survivor?
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@MDRSan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3492594#Comment_3492594
Not against the rules or a perfectly valid strategy mean the same thing in context of what my point was. Neither statement precludes something being unfun, unfair, or otherwise bad.
I never said a killer was a jerk for tunnelling, just that the behavior is jerkish. I never said a killer wanting to win was toxic. I disagree that tunnelling is necessary to win if that's the argument there. I never tunnel and aside from a handful of games with really good survivors, the only times I don't get 3 or 4Ks are when I choose to go easy or let people go. I can only remember a couple of games where I didn't at least get a 1K and was actually trying. Doing something in the pursuit of winning doesn't then shield that behavior from criticism. Is your argument that getting tunneled is fun for the survivor player or that it doesn't matter because the killer thought it would help them win?
Unless there's an infinite loop hidden somewhere I'm not aware of, there is no playing better to loop the killer forever. Again, we're discussing tunneling here so this killer is not breaking chase. I'm not an amazing survivor, but I'm not new either - I'm capable of looping. What I can't do is spawn pallets out of my butt or convince the killer to move the chase to a more advantageous tile.
The survivor that sat on a gen from 0 to 100% was a survivor that the killer never chased off the gen. Survivors have one objective that directly contributes to their win condition - generators. A killer that plays to pressure gen progression and have kills/hooks come while doing that is going to have an easier time than one who mainly focuses on getting kills and wonders why survivors keep getting gens they aren't patrolling done. A killer can't tunnel a survivor and then act surprised the other survivors were working on the only objective that matters in the mean time.
Calling it "not against the rules" in this context as your only comment on it is reductive at best and extremely disingenuous at worst. It's neither unfair, nor bad. There are situations where the killer's best move is to tunnel (those situations are pretty common), and there are others where it will lead the killer to a loss.
The behavior isn't jerkish either, just the same way it's not jerkish for survivors to split up on different gens across the map. It's just being efficient. Both sides are doing their best to win, one shouldn't be condemned while the other is commended.
"I never tunnel and yet I get 4k's all the time while running no slowdown" yes, I remember I used to say the same thing. Then I crawled my way out of baby MMR. Against any team worth their salt, AKA no baby Dwight that spends the entire game crouched in a corner and opening chests, even assuming they're not on comms, you WILL lose the game if you don't tunnel, or, at best, 2k, unless if they make a significant blunder and let you snowball, or you happen to be one of very few strong killers and playing them at a high level.
My argument is it that neither side is responsible for the other side's fun. Killers don't enjoy seeing 4 gens pop before they even get their first hook, and survivors don't enjoy being camped and tunneled when they go down in a deadzone. That's neither side's fault, and neither behavior is toxic. This entitlement somehow only seems to exist on the survivor side, where survivors will go out of their way to condemn a killer for playing in a way that will win them the game.
There absolutely is a playing better to loop the killer. There are enough resources on every map in the game for all gens to get completed twice over, and probably more, depending on the map. Chain loops and play them to their fullest, and you'll have a better experience. If the killer is already committed to the tunnel, they're very unlikely to drop chase to go for a healthy survivor because they hear a 90% gen and you're injured on your first hook. Your job is to not go down, and that's it.
Ok, so the killer is supposed to push people off gens then? So what happens when the killer is pushing one survivor off a gen? What are the other three up to? Or is he supposed to drop chase and go back to the other gens to push survivors off of them? When does the killer have time to chase exactly? The most effective strategy for a killer is to hook a survivor close to gens that have some progress, and proxy the objective. If I'm really sweating and I have a gen regressing and a survivor on hook, I'm likely gonna stay in the area. And if I see one, or even two survivors nearby, you can bet I'm not going anywhere and you're not getting the unhook for free. That's not toxic, that's just me playing to win. The killers that lose gens left and right while tunneling are the ones that get lead by the tunneled survivor on a wild goose chase, often leading the chase to 0% gens, or worse, completed gens, and the killer is unable to do multiple things at once at that point. Again, there's very few killers that have the power to transition quickly between pressuring and chasing. What chance do you stand if you're not playing one of them?
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@Rovend said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3492594#Comment_3492594
inventing scenarios? Tunneling is what i see most in my games. at least half of my games consist of killers tunneling someone at 5 gens so it's safe to say that i know what kind of attitude does the killer have in those situations.
You are also assuming that the unhooker is always in a position that can help you deal with a killer tunneling.
What about if you are going against a nurse, that can literally blink through the unhooked and hit you?
or a wesker hitting you by dashing against a unhooker hitting both?
or a bubba, that can chainsaw through the unhooker and hit you after?
or a spirit phasing behind you both
what about the unhooker is injured, because perks like sloppy exist and you cant always heal before a teammate dies.
you can also be hooked in a deadzone.
There are dozens of situations where the unhooker cant cover you, that's why OTR, an anti-tunneling perk, should not require another person help to do what it is meant to do.
"The endurance portion isn't COUNTERED by hard tunneling" it is, the 80sec of endurance means nothing if you can lose it 5sec after unhook as all endurance effects cant stack together.
"At the end of the day, unless you're really able to run the killer well, you'll probably die" i agree, but you are better off using perks to extend chase like resilience or MfT or adrenaline instead of the perk that is supposed to save you from these.
"Let's not forget that you can also combine OTR with DS+DH for the double Endurance whammy for complete antitunnel value" Look, if you need not one, not two but three perks to have a slight chance to survive one of the most common tactics killer use today, that alone speak volumes of how these "antitunnel" perks barely do anything at all.
You invented scenarios because you assumed one specific scenario and assumed it as the standard (killer is "proxying" but is right back on top of the hook as the unhook is happening). You're also inventing scenarios as you speak, but I'll entertain it.
Nurse? You got bigger problems than losing your Endurance if you're being tunneled by a Nurse, but OTR is probably the best perk you can have when being tunneled by a Nurse. The Iron Will will let you last much longer in chase since good Nurses use grunts of pain to predict mindgames. Also, if she has any aura reading perks, they're gonso.
Wesker? If he goes for the collat, he's already wasted one (maybe two) of his rushes, and you have a speedboost. Use it to get out of dodge.
Bubba? Your teammate is farming you if they unhook that close to a Bubba anyways, with the Bubba's rev already advanced enough for him to get a double hit on you. If a teammate unhooks you knowing they go down, they're either running Deliverance, or they're trading hooks to buy your team more time to do gens. Either way, if you get unhooked with a fully revved Bubba in your face, there's no perk in the game (outside DS) that will save you.
Spirit? Good luck to the Spirit player considering sound is her primary cue while in power and you're now completely quiet. OTR slaps Spirit the hardest out of any killer.
Now explain to me how Resilience/MFT (an overpowered perk used by many as a crutch, and will get nerfed very soon) will help you in any of the above scenarios. I'll wait.
OTR doesn't require another person to do what it does, but a person taking a hit helps conserve your Endurance and helps you be much harder to tunnel.
If your unhooker is unhooking while injured and the killer doesn't take the free down, they're stupid. And if they decide to tunnel afterwards, you have Endurance.
If you get hooked in a deadzone, that's your problem. No perk in the game is gonna save you there.
Yes, you can lose it after 5 seconds, or you can lose it after 60 seconds. Depends on how you decide to use it. A lot of killers will instantly drop the tunnel if they hear OTR. However, if you play like most OTR users and use it offensively, don't whine about being tunneled in post-game.
Adrenaline won't save you if you get tunneled before all gens are done. But you know what perk will help you stay alive until then? OTR.
No, you don't need to run THREE perks to have a slight chance, you CAN run three perks to stand a very strong chance of running killer until endgame. I've already said I've used that same combo before to run a killer for long enough for all gens to get popped by the time I went up on the hook for my 2nd stage, and we were able to 4-out, THANKS to those perks. It's also about strategizing on the survivor side. If you're a confident enough looper, you can take the killer's attention early on, and run them for 2-3 gens. At this point, the killer will desperately attempt a tunnel, at which point they hit the double whammy, and you may even escape before you even go on the 2nd hook. See? That's counter-strategizing to a popular, efficient killer strategy. That's what good players do. Good players see the most effective strategy used against them, and adapt (like killers do by tunneling, when the meta is to rush gens). Bad players sit back and whine about the effective strategy and hope to nerf their way to an easy victory.
My final point being that OTR is, indeed, one of the most busted perks in the game currently. Should I get a nerf? I don't know. All I know is I roll my eyes every time I see it, and tunneling is a fair strategy that shouldn't be discouraged so heavily, unless survivors receive equally debilitating nerfs to their basekit gen speeds.
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@Rovend said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3492484#Comment_3492484
The unhooker can take a hit and the killer also can choose to ignore it to tunnel you, which is most likely to happen. So keeping or losing your endurance really depends more on the killer than the unhooker.
People ran old Iron will because it was permanently active when injured, not just 80 seconds after unhook so it had a lot more versatility than OTR does. Also At that time, there werent so many aura perks so you could realistically try to hide from the killer if you were injured.
But removing grunts of pain and aura when the killer is actively chasing you to tunnel does not make OTR a good anti tunnel perk.
A killer tunneling you will not use something like THWACK, and would also not stop to kick a gen to activate NTH. They will just chase you using perks like bamboozle or Hex:Blood favor so you cant vault or drop pallets. You may confuse a bad killer with the no sound effect, but any decent killer will tunnel you anyway because OTR's main strength(endurance) is literally countered by hard tunneling.
Again, you're inventing these scenarios in your head and using them as an absolute. If the killer is proxying, they likely are not close enough to get an instant hit off unhook. In which case, your unhooker can escort you to the nearest pallet to take a hit. If your unhooker is competent enough, they can deny the hit until you get to the pallet, at which point you still have your endurance.
But even after you lose your endurance, again, you have old Iron Will. You can afford to just leave a tile without alerting the killer that you're doing so, you can afford to play mindgames because your grunts of pain can't be heard, and you have no aura. You have a much easier time losing the killer in a chase. Even if the killer loses you, and stops to kick a nearby gen/pallet to get aura read, your Distortion saves you from that. The endurance portion isn't COUNTERED by hard tunneling, it functions TO counter hard tunneling. At the end of the day, unless you're really able to run the killer well, you'll probably die. Assuming you're able to run the killer for all 5 gens, you likely bought your team a 3-out, which is a loss for the killer. If you even manage to get your 2nd hook by the time last gen pops/is almost done, you should be able to 4-out if you have a gate close enough and your team can take hits. OTR enables all of this. Let's not forget that you can also combine OTR with DS+DH for the double Endurance whammy for complete antitunnel value. I've ran killers for 3+ minutes using this same build after they tried to tunnel.
@MDRSan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3490925#Comment_3490925
I don't believe the devs have ever said getting tunneled is fun or engaging gameplay though, just that it isn't against the rules. 'Bad' encompasses more than just exploits or unintentional gameplay interactions. I would argue that unfun gameplay and the frustration of being able to do nothing during a match but go from hook to hook might not be 'wrong' but is something that makes it fair to say the killer is playing like a jerk.
One thing to consider is that the game is designed in a way that makes it mostly up to the killer so far as whether you are downed once they see you. Occasionally a survivor will lose me in chase if they're set up for stealth, know the map well, and are in area that allows for effective, post-LOS break plays but the vast majority of chases that don't result in downs are because I chose to end chase to maintain gen pressure or get an easier down. If I was tunnelling then there is no choice to make and that survivor will likely be going down.
The only thing that mitigates how unfun it is from a survivor perspective is the fact that not every single killer does it. If they did, I would just stick to killer and not bother queueing up for survivor - bp bonus or no.
No, the devs specifically mentioned that tunneling is a valid strategy, not that it simply wasn't against the rules. For example, bleeding someone out when there's a hook right in front of you isn't against the rules, but it's not really a strategy. It's just BM. Tunneling is an objectively good and efficient strategy, and I would argue that in today's meta, it's necessary to secure a lot of wins.
Also, a killer isn't a jerk for tunneling. A killer wanting to win isn't toxic, they're just sweaty. Being sweaty isn't being toxic. This is something survivor mains need to get through their heads: a killer playing to win isn't personally targeting you, and isn't being toxic. They just want to win as much as you want to win.
You absolutely have plenty you can do instead of going from hook to hook. Your best option is to just play better and loop the killer. Run to a safe pallet, drop it, and run it until the killer breaks it, go to the next one, rinse and repeat. You're now buying your team time to do all the gens, and might even escape assuming you do a good enough job. And if you do, you are the MVP of the game as you've managed to run the killer for enough time for your team to do all gens. If your team is good enough, and they see you're in trouble, even solo Qers will jump in to take a hit if they see you nearby, which resets Bloodlust and gives you distance.
I agree that a killer is partly responsible for the pace of the game, but so are survivors. If survivors are efficient, and split up on gens instantly, odds are they will have 3 gens pop by the time the first chase ends. What chance do most killers stand against this if they don't tunnel? There is a mathematical problem in DBD; survivors are simply too efficient. But for some reason, killers are expected to spread their hooks out, but survivors are allowed to sit on a gen from 0 to 100% and no one bats an eye. Maps are too safe, survivors are too efficient, and gens are too easy. This is also the reason why you see more and more people gravitating towards playing stronger killers; survivors turn into gen jockeys when left alone and unbothered. A killer may either hope to get someone out early and possibly secure a win before the last few gens pop, or may hope for altruistic plays that they can snowball off of. Once the last gen pops and you get slapped with 4x Adrenaline, all bets are off for the killer.
This is compounded by the fact we keep getting more and more broken perks, like MFT, which only further enable survivors to waste a killer's time for free.
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"Flicking tech" bro what? Flicks are working exactly as intended currently. It's not a tech, it's an intended feature. Try the following: if you know a Blight likes to flick tight, round a corner and do a wide U turn. I've even managed to flare ArrayGamer (top 3 Lethal Rush hits on Steam) doing this.
For all the other whiny comments on here, Blight is fine. His "techs" are more efficient but require prediction. If he hug techs and you do something he doesn't expect, he's out of position and out of a rush token. The really mean, sweaty Blights use double speed with pure bump logic.
As far as "nerfs", there is only one nerf he really needs: make the pallet break animation not recover tokens, same as fatigue, and do the same for pallet stuns. This is the only reason C33 and Vial are as oppressive as they are.
Now, for addons, remove Hindered from C33, make Alch Ring recover tokens at 200% speed for 5 seconds after a hit, and maybe drop the speedboost from Vial to 5%. There, I fixed Blight.
His "exploits" have plenty of counterplay. Adapt to the killer you're playing instead of crying that it's too hard.
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@Rovend said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3491150#Comment_3491150
The thing is, OTR may have 3 good effects but they barely come into play.
If you are not being tunneled, it doesnt matter if your aura cant be seen or your grunts of pain not heard for 80sec because the killer will be chasing another survivor and you will be healed.
If you are being tunneled, the killer usually proxy camps the hook so they will see you being unhooked, hit you while having BT making you lose endurance and the aura and grunt of pain will barely be useful if the killer is chasing you closely.
So OTR needs you to be in that perfect grey area where you are tunneled enough to use the effects of aura and grunt of pain and endurance, but not so hard tunneled that the killer is already with you by the time you are being unhooked.
Old Eruption had 3 good effects that barely came in to play if the gen got done.
The unhooker can take a hit for you off hook to conserve your OTR endurance. After that, you still have old IW and Distortion. Do you really think people ran old IW because it was "barely useful"? Killers use grunts of pain to win a lot of mindgames around strong tiles. No grunts of pain means the killer can't track you down with sound. Additionally, no aura counters strong addons such as Compound 21, or perks like Thwack, NTH, I'm All Ears, and so on. The killer can't be right up on you if they hit you. It's either they're right up on you and trying to wait out BT, and then they smack you giving you distance, or they smack you early and you get chased with IW+Distortion.
Your argument is akin to saying Unbreakable is a weak perk because you rarely get slugged.
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@For_The_People said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3491622#Comment_3491622
You really lost me there on the last points.
Solos, especially new solos will need time to learn how to loop - most can’t do that when they’re tunnelled out repeatedly which can be demoralising and demotivating to continue playing. The ones that inevitably do, get so good that they now have an axe to grind with killers and who I’ve stomped them and end up toxic - and that cycle starts. I believe the cycle of toxicity starts because of such killer stompability and BMing on low level survivors. I can’t remember who but someone else on the forum put it well: lower level MMR the worst killer toxicity and the higher level MMR had the worst survivor toxicity.
I disagree that Solos “are supposed to loop better” or the notion (sadly) that they will be happy to gladly be tunnelled as long as they can with low bp for the rest of the team.. you can only really expect that from swf.
Tunneling isn't toxic. If you get tunneled, you have the perfect opportunity to learn how to loop in a stressful environment.
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@KayTwoAyy said:
I don't know what I expected when I opened this discussion, but this was not it...
Also, anyone else here think Eternal would've won in under 10min if they rematched?
Was pretty obvious to me that the majority of their issue was inexperience against Skull Merchant. They made some pretty strange blunders early game which made their late game unnecessarily difficult. I'd imagine they'd have learned from their mistakes in game one, and made game two look like a cake walk.
Maybe 20-30 minutes. They spent about 30 minutes experimenting different strategies to figure out which would work best, and they finally decided on the 2-1-1 split across the gens based on which one was safest and which one was not. But also, the killer could have won that game at multiple points and made the worst decision they could have.
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@lifestylee said:
To be fair, to be able to play skull merchant and hold a 3 gen for a very long time by kicking them over and over with overcharge/opression you need to be an incredibly skilled killer player with an extremely high IQ (atleast 150+ IQ)
To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to play Skull Merchant. The gameplay is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of the concept of a 3-gen, most of the nuances will go over a typical player's head.
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@pseudechis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3490940#Comment_3490940
Not completing every other gen but those three till last probably would have helped.
You keep saying this, but you also realize the SM had Oppression? I think this is flying over your head a little bit. After 50 minutes of trying to break the 3-gen, the entire map would have regressed to 0%, and when they do finally break the 3-gen, the killer just picks a different one to go to. You're somehow deluding yourself into thinking that, because a killer is playing a 3-gen and 5 gens are remaining, that they have any intention of leaving that 3-gen somehow to pressure the other 4 gens, that they know full well are at 99.
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@pseudechis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3490945#Comment_3490945
But what would it prove, that its really hard and takes to long?... we already know that.
I reckon with enough games we could pull it off though, law of infinite probability and all.
You want me to get my collective of pals together to appease the opinion of one bristly online stranger. Your opinion of what I've said isn't that important to me and likely completely unimportant to them also, I'd be embarrassed to ask them because its so silly.
Maybe if we were in an 80's movie and playing to save the children's youth center from destruction by the snooty rich businessman and his crony's. I love a good training montage.
Try it yourself against a SM and see how you do, you never know you may even enjoy yourself trying.
It would prove your point, that the 3-gen is very easy to dismantle. You'll go into the game knowing exactly which killer I'm playing, on exactly which map, and which strategy I'll be using. And you'll be on voice comms with your teammates. All the chips in your favor to win this, I want you to prove to me that breaking a SM 3-gen is as easy as you make it sound.
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@Leon_Scott_Kennedy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3491545#Comment_3491545
Okay? What’s your point even here
I think my point was pretty clear. You tried to equivocate old P3-50 to P100. They are not the same. Devs implemented basekit BBQ+WGLF bonus bloodpoints because everything is cheaper. Not to mention survivor/killer incentives. Whether everything costs half, or you get double BP, are both equivalent.
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@pseudechis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3491799#Comment_3491799
People are really defensive at the concept of someone whom isn't a highly competitive team winning a 3 gen game against SM.
I realize it doesn't feed into the she is broken and OP sky is falling narrative that people want to push it also doesn't mean she's fine as is. Both those things can be true at once.
I wouldn't call her OP but what it takes to break her 3 gen is a lil much and needs to change.
Yes as I said an entire game against SM using 3gen tactic will be breaking each 3 gen by 3 gen till you get a gen layout that isn't advantageous to just camp.
If she's set up with only those most optimum gens left on the map get ready to hunker down for long game around just those 3 gens.
99 the far away gens then start the 3 gen breaking, once its broken pop the rest in rapid succession... this is the best thing that my mediocre collection of friends has found and we've had some success. Survivors never 99 gens anymore.
Until the changes happen this is what's worked for us and if the "best team in the world" had tried it maybe they wouldn't have been there for 50 mins. We'll never know, but if my sad collective can do it I'm sure others can too.
People keep comparing it to chess and as a mediocre DBD player but a capable chess player, I can say its nothing of the sort and unconventional chess games are won by thinking through problems not by pissing and moaning about them.
Purely defensive chess leads to stalemates. Someone has to eventually attack and in this role that's the survivors, so set your defense 99 a collection of spread gens and then attack the 3 gen, you'll lose some pieces but if you break the 3 gen you'll snowball your way out the gate with the right set up. Is that enough of a chess simile can we stop now?
Yes, because this team has the highest skill expression of any survivor team in the entire game, and could run circles around basically any killer. Assuming the SM player was on literally any other killer in the game, the game would have been over in minutes, with an easy 4-out. The only reason the game lasted so long, and he was able to have a chance, is specifically because he was playing SM and was utilizing this strategy. This isn't some experienced player giving a much more experienced team a hard time, this is an ATROCIOUS player (seriously, his gameplay is filled to the brim with mistakes, and he could have easily won that game at many points if he wasn't so bad) who managed to force the best team in the world to try multiple strategies to defeat him simply walking around in a triangle refreshing his power and kicking gens. There is no world where this isn't a problem. This is the equivalent of a team of 15 year old amateur soccer players going up against Real Madrid and almost winning the game at multiple points by using some equipment that Madrid doesn't have access to.
Also, he didn't win the game, he got 4-outed and got 4 hooks (4 hooks too many if you ask me, he would have gotten 0-hooked on any other killer).
Granted, in theory, she is not OP. It's when you combine her with the fact that her drones are multi-floor, that almost every map has a very easily defensible 3-gen, along with how her kit operates, that makes her OP. The proof is in the pudding; the best team in the world could have ran laps around this killer but got pulled into a 50 minute game where they could have lost at many points because he happened to be playing this one killer.
What's the point of 99ing the gens if she never leaves her 3-gen? You realize you're just giving her another chance, assuming you are somehow able to break her 3-gen. Say she gets cocky at one point and strays away from her 3-gen to hear one of your 99 gens being worked on, and she kicks it, and no one realizes because everyone is busy trying to break the 3-gen, then she realizes she's about to lose the 3-gen and goes for a kill on someone who's death hook, and you start popping your 99 gens, you've just given her another 3-gen that's less defensible that she only has to worry about 3 people on. If a killer wants to play a 3-gen, they will play that 3-gen. It doesn't matter if you're at 5 gens left or only 1.
Again, I've already said this but I'll say it again, get your SWF together and play me on SM. You pick the map, and you can bring any items or perks. Only restriction is no toolboxes and no BNP.
The chess thing is just making fun of the streamer who played against Eternal. He kept making chess metaphors even though they made absolutely no sense.
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@ReikoMori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3491787#Comment_3491787
They did the same to Legion for a long time even after they removed the ability to moonwalk down someone with deep wounds, fixed the issues with stacking Filthy and Nasty blade, turbo nerfed and then reworked Frank's Mixtape and Stab Wound Study.
People DC'd on the Twins a ton as well, there was literally the multiple years of hostage Doc and the Forever Freddy days of his original power which caused a ton of DCs. It seems we've been playing this game the same length of time so you would have had to have seen this or at least been aware of this.
The response to Skull Merchant is extremely skewed because the level of baseline hate for her is so much higher than any other killer. Hate she doesn't really deserve considering where it usually stems from has nothing to do with what she's capable of in game and everything to do with people getting hyped up on leaks for Predator or generally being super snobbish about what does and doesn't belong in horror. So a ridiculous level of hatred paired with a generally very weak power that has one grossly over performant strat at the expense of truly being good at anything else means players are going to respond negatively in a seemingly outsized manner.
Most of the folks on this forum that call for her to be killswitched or deleted are also the same ones who were cranking out threads talking about how Skull Merchant doesn't even belong in DBD to begin with.
The hate for her is 100% justified, and we're way past the days where people hated on her for overhyping a potential Predator chapter. People hate her now because games against her are excessively dull.
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@HamsterEnjoyer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3491744#Comment_3491744
Again, you clearly don't play her at all and thats fine but dont tell me, someone who actually does play her, how she can and can't be played because I actually do play her and have spent the time learning her and all her kit has to offer something you haven't done.
"b-b-but you haven't played her"
"Actually I did"
"b-b-but you haven't played her"
Arguing with SM mains be like
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@Morbus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3491712#Comment_3491712
I agree that Adrenaline is too op and should get a nerf, but this mft+hope combo is way beyond and above that, not only it lasts till the end and is not a momentarily boost but also makes catching up and downing survivor impossible (assuming the situation is that you are not about to down him when last gen pops but during a chase when the last gen pops and he gets amped like a beast) + let me quote you on this one and i "hope" you are not trolling
you say mft is op but hope isnt, is your math correct? 3% is but 7% isnt, what in the world is that mindset mft makes a small impact during a chase just like for example resilence sometimes you get away to a pallet in the last second or get to a window and vault in the last second and THAT IS FINE but mft + hope combo isnt something to underestimate and I didnt make a post out of nothingness, you get fricking 110% speed movement and on top of that a slight vault speed if you have resilence, let me repeat a 110% speed movement you literally cant catch up as a 4.4m/s killer, who in the office thought that making survivor the same speed as killer was a good idea at any point in any point of the game (yes endgame) mft and resilence is fine, but hope needs a drastic change now that another haste perk has been added and stacks making this ridiculous situation
I said hope was fine, not MFT+Hope was fine. MFT is its own can of worms, and the perk is 100% overtuned, and WILL get nerfed. This thread isn't about MFT+Hope, or even Hope, it's about Adrenaline. Let's stop playing whataboutism. Hope is fine.
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@HamsterEnjoyer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3491692#Comment_3491692
Crazy how people who don't play her will sit up here and tell me how she can and can't be played lol.
There's far more than just perks including her add ons which enable or allow some of these playstyles to work in anyway. Just because the most effective way of playing her is gen defense doesn't mean thats all she can do and the only effective way of playing her is gen defense when she has plenty of add ons which enable a variety of other playstyles that other killers cant utilize but she can.
I've played her plenty. I'm not the kind to take other people's opinions as facts. I never played her during the PTB, I played her on release. I wasn't part of the ones set up for the Predator hidemind disappointment. I judged her on her own merit. Her chase addons are worthless; she has a worse anti-loop than almost any killer in the game, even with her best chase addons. Beyond that, her best addons are either the gen defense ones, or the ones to create confusion amongst survivors so you get easier hits off gens. Her best playstyle is, by far, defense; more specifically gen defense. Playing her in any other way is playing an M1 killer with a half-power.
I too can slap Vigo's Journal on Blight and call it a stealth build, but that's not really doing anyone any favors.
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@Zokenay said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3491689#Comment_3491689
You sure about that? ive lost survivors that would have been a sure down if it wasnt for this perk.
The haste buff is really significant.
That's the point of the perk. That you lose chases in endgame. If it's evident a survivor has Hope, zone them out, break the pallet, and get the down. I wouldn't be against seeing the speedboost dropped to 5% (still very significant), but the perk is fine. It doesn't magically give you an extra health state and a 5 second sprint burst, with your team instantly on gates as soon as last gen pops, which basically guarantees you get out no matter what.
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@HamsterEnjoyer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3490341#Comment_3490341
Because there is plenty of ways to play her in her current kit. She can be chase orientated, stealth orientated, gen defense orientated, anti heal orientated, and more that Ik I've played with but am forgetting. Her rework I'm sorry but we already know what it'll be if they don't just nerf her to hell and call it a day.
They'll remove ALL other playstyles except chase and she'll just be another generic chase killer like freddy when he got his rework. I have always enjoyed killers who have a lot of micro management and even more so killers that do area denial. Atm we have Hag and Trapper for area denial, they've gutted Hag in any rank that's not low since survivors just know to wipe traps away now. And Trapper is so clunky and slow on everything he does you don't feel much enjoyment + his games tend to all play the exact same way of 'go find trap place at pallet/window, repeat'
My other favorite killer to play Onryo, is being gutted tomorrow in favor of the same thing, simplifying her basekit by removing ALL other playstyles in favor for chasing as an M1 killer (Even going as far as to remove her add ons which allow her to mindgame during chase and pull actually skillfull plays). When BHVR says rework they mean simplfy their kit which means make everything very straight forward. SM was a killer who hit the golden trifecta for me in design, power, and effectiveness. I never played her as a 3 gen as my 2 main builds were anti-pallets and anti-heal, both which I'm sure will be completely unviable and non existent post nerf/rework as evident by EVERY other rework they've done.
"I can use different perks but play mostly the same" isn't "different ways to play". Wraith has different builds, Nurse has different builds, Onryo has different builds, even Trapper has different builds.
The only effective way to play SM is defense, whether gens or totems, or both, with occasional straying away to get a hit or eat a resource.
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@Zokenay said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3491671#Comment_3491671
Hope kinda is on its own as well, its buff was justifiable due to being limited, but now its permanent.
Hope only activates in endgame, and isn't a free escape like Adrenaline.
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MFT+Hope isn't broken. MFT on its own is. Most survivors using it have no idea what they're doing, but wait till you chase a good survivor using it.
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@adam1233467 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3488268#Comment_3488268
the nerf ins't bad as people think, the differente is miliseconds btw
This is literally untrue, please stop spreading misinformation. The difference ranges from about 2 seconds to 4 seconds, depending on how many people are on the gen. This may not sound like much, but current Prove already only saves seconds on each gen.
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@GannTM said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3491195#Comment_3491195
The tunneling I’m talking about is doing it at the complete start of the match and only targeting one survivor and ignoring the others. This completely ruins the experience of that survivor as they get very little BP and it also doesn’t help the killer player improve at all. It’s a cheap and scummy tactic that can be combatted with comms but what are solos supposed to do?
End game camping and tunneling is fine. Even seeing an opportunity to get someone out of the game with 1 or 2 gens left isn’t that bad too me.
If I'm playing most games against someone who is much better than me, I will get stomped and probably won't have any fun playing. But it is a learning experience if I choose to use it as such. Every time I get tunneled at 5 gens, I can buy enough time for my team to get all gens done by my 1st or 2nd hook.
Solos are supposed to loop better. The point of a chase is to waste time.
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@Leon_Scott_Kennedy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3490796#Comment_3490796
It’s cheaper because there a HUNDRED prestige levels now per character, when it used to be three, so making them cheaper was necessary, but the grind is still super painful
...You realize P100 isn't supposed to be a given, right? It's not a standard for you to reach, it's there as a long-term personal goal to show your dedication to the character. You get nothing past Prestige 9, and you get all the important stuff by Prestige 3.
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3491135#Comment_3491135
Trapper did nothing wrong :(
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3491153#Comment_3491153
Im not saying one way or another about the viability of the robot, but I'd happily do this custom thing with you anyway. Maybe I can get a flick from your Blight? The Blight is my real target here, ngl. Nom nom
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3491164#Comment_3491164
Thank you for this. Really explains a lot vs 'play like hagu'. < 3
I'll take any chance I can get to play Blight
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@GannTM said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3491150#Comment_3491150
Again, you’ll only get the most powerful effect if you hard tunnel. If you play normally then it’s literally the same exact perk it was before if the survivor is progressing the game at all. If they weren’t progressing the game, then obviously they were useless that whole time. Idk how it’s hard to comprehend.
You still have to tell me why tunneling is a bad thing.
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You have to understand, there is extreme brainrot on both ends of the spectrum in DBD. Killer mains will think that survivors doing good plays (good mindgames, leaving loops, odd pathing, flashlight/pallet saves, greeding pallets etc.) is toxic. Survivors will think that killers doing good plays (using power well, winning mindgames at strong tiles, countering certain perks, not falling for flashlight saves, finishing chases quick) is toxic. Even without either side bringing anything that is excessively strong (full meta loadouts for example), some players on either side will think getting outplayed is toxic. I've seen extreme cases in both: I've had killers tell me dropping pallets is toxic, and I've had survivors tell me using my power at loops is toxic. And when either side sees this "toxicity" in full display, they respond in kind with actual toxicity. That's why you see killers hit on hook after getting juiced for 4 gens, and that's why you see survivors teabag killers that 8-hook because the killer played a little too well, or won a mindgame against them, or didn't fall for some stupid tech they were trying to do.
Basically, people suck. Tunnel if you want to tunnel, and camp if you want to camp. If someone is upset, they'll go out of their way to find a reason to hate you. Even if you didn't camp, or tunnel, or slug, and 12-hooked, and didn't use any perks, or addons, and are playing a weaker killer, they will find some way to call you boring, or some way to hate you for something. People in general have a hard time accepting the fact they got outplayed.
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@LobbyDodgerLeonidas said:
I don't know for sure, only the devs could tell you. I've only ran into a couple Singularitys since he released. One tried using his power in chase and got dumpstered with a 4 escape. The other one 4Ked by HARD 3 genning.
I've tried playing him in chase and his power is too cumbersome to use for what little reward you get from his power. Using the Biopods to spy on gens has multiple flaws. One, the EMPs are so plentiful that you'll basically watch the survivors finish the gen through an EMPed biopod and 2nd, even if you infect them with the slipstream from the camera, it takes so long to teleport to them that they can easily break LoS and prevent it unless they don't care or are clueless.
He's the worst killer in the game IMO and he has the lowest kill rate on NightLight
Worst killer in the game? Really?
If you would like, you could assemble a SWF and play me on Singularity. I'm firmly of the opinion that he's an A-tier killer, and I would be more than happy to demonstrate his potential.
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@MB666 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/384427/in-defense-of-adrenaline
if nurse wasnt a thing i would agreed that the perk might need a small nerf..
like nerfing the sprint from 5 to 3
or actually making terminus actually delay the effect of the perk while active, healing yourself instantly is already pretty good but 5 seconds of sprint might be a little bit too much for modern DBD.but right now with nurse still having no counterplays ; this perk is a nurse counter to some form because you can actually outrange his blinks with the 5 seconds sprint when the last gen pops and that can be huge against nurse + she has to hit you 2 times again if you got to full health.
Nurse does have counterplay. Break LOS and double back.
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@GannTM said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3491127#Comment_3491127
You mean the two effects that were there before the buff to the perk? There’s a reason it saw no use before, because removing auras and grunts of pain for only 80 seconds was way too situational.
And now the perk has three effects, what's your point? Either the killer tunnels and you have all three effects, or the killer doesn't tunnel and finds you again, and you can stealth much better as well as win more mindgames in chase because no aura and no sound. Distortion is an S-tier perk, and old Iron Will was widely ran because it was very strong. Giving OTR an 80s endurance effect on top is just the cherry on top.
Also, old Eruption got buffed and went months unnoticed before everyone started using it. "People weren't using it before!" means absolutely nothing when discussing balance.