danielmaster87
danielmaster87
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3891222#Comment_3891222
yeah we would have zero of these kinds of arguments on this forum if people bothered to play both sides
Well, we do play both sides. It's just whichever side you're more emotionally invested in, that's the one you pick. But some people are honestly wanting to argue in favor of better balance, even though they've taken X side, and others who just argue in bad faith.
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That's basically impossible. Because the gen speed up/slow down mechanic in 2v8 is such good design (not), the survivors are gonna be flying on those gens the moment a few cages are made.
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It's just another SWF bully perk. Unorganized solos who don't even do gens will never use this perk. It's just a "win more" perk. Something as simple as breaking a pallet, which every killer bar Nurse has to do, you get punished for doing with this perk. Ironically, it's the perfect tool against catch-up killers like Hillbilly, Blight, and Wesker (breaking the pallet and still having a chance to get you before you reach the next loop). But people never mention the perk, and just complain about the killer's speed.
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@StonedHermit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3884448#Comment_3884448
Killer win streaks have been as high as 2k+ consecutive games. If that's not problematic to you I don't know what to tell you
And 1 person was able to do that, through sheer luck. Wow, that proves so much.
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I can't speak on out-of-game Pinhead stuff, other than the fact that Hellraiser is a great horror series, and the false alarm NFT scare we had when he came to the game. He's only ever been as high as a top 4 killer. That was peak Pinhead, with unnerfed box respawn add-ons, unnerfed Engineer's Fang, and the Hoarder/box build.
In fact, that was the most fun yet most skillful build/playstyle the game has ever had. Yes, if you got it going, the Chain Hunt would be going for most of the match. But that meant that you had to understand the box spawn logic, and you had to have really fast chases with each new box holder, back to back to back, with no breaks, because as soon as you had 1 unoptimal chase with the box holder, the gens started flying. And god forbid they actually solved the thing before you could stop it; then your whole plan would be out the window. But people cried and got Hoarder's interaction with the box nerfed (because killer perks and powers aren't allowed synergy?), they got the box itself nerfed (literally letting you solve the box with loads of chains attacking you), and they got Engineer's Fang nerfed (the add-on that made him a weaker Legion, because no Deep Wound).
They really screwed him up. It's why you don't see him anymore. He's just an M1 killer with faulty anti-loop (insta-break chains), and you have a sliver of slowdown in the form of the box, which they'll immediately solve, and if you teleport it'll take even longer to respawn for some reason.
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@mecca said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3891158#Comment_3891158
Didn't momo win thousands in a row? Surely you not going to actually sit there and type he didn't verse any good SWF?
Yes, killer will always win. You can play perfectly as survivor but still lose if the killer is good.
He couldn't have. It's not THAT hard for a good SWF to win. One decent team, and your streak is gone. No killer is able to down fast enough to stop the runaway gens, unless it's like a god-level Nurse/Spirit/Blight, in which case that hardly proves killer in general is like really strong, because those killers are the cream of the crop; no other killers come close to their power. And you can't justify all killers staying as weak as they are now because 3 of them perform well.
I actually played against a god Spirit recently, who was like 90% accurate on her phase hits, and I didn't play well at all. She was tunneling/slugging me, and I managed to dodge like 2 phase hits total. The 1 chance I had to breath, I ran off to a corner to self-heal, and then hid and did far-off gens the rest of the match. In general, in part because of me, we really didn't play that well as a team. But that was against a literal god Spirit, when we had no comms, and I martyred so that 2-3 escaped. That's the highest a killer of that level can get, against a random good solo team: a draw or loss (I can't remember exactly the result). And it was on a farm map, which everyone says apparently has 0 pallets.
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@Akumakaji said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3891163#Comment_3891163
""I tried playing killer for a while. After winning every game with a 4K I got so bored, that I only ever played survivor, since."
I think it's more that they're getting lucky. We know that after 1-2 matches as a new killer you're playing, it immediately sets you to a higher MMR with efficient survivors. But sometimes players who play rather noobish actually have that as an advantage. My friend, who's a noob, who will seriously make Wraith or Ghost Face look unbeatable because they don't know how to play against them, while simultaneously they'll be able to loop a Nurse for a minute+, I guess because their movement is so erratic and not planned, the Nurse just keeps guessing wrong on her blinks.
The same can happen with experienced survivors against noob killers, especially in regards to the "no mindgame" mindgame, where the killer doesn't bait the double back at a loop, causing a longer chase, he does it again, causing a longer chase, and at that point you're likely "Surely he won't do it again, because he keeps getting punished," and yet he does it again and ends up downing you because of it, because you mindgamed yourself thinking he was gonna mindgame you. A complete noob can down you in that fashion.
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@shalo said:
No Healing: Without Medkits or perks like Self-Care, a single hit puts a Survivor in a dangerous state indefinitely.
I've heard tell of a very rare tech that can heal Survivors, I'm not sure if I should say it though…
That's if the killer's tunneling, or is going straight from survivor to survivor to gen to survivor with no missed guesses. So either he's tunneling, basically allowing the other 3 survivors to do whatever they want, or he's playing hit and run, which is unviable.
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I think survivors will always win under default conditions. There's just not much you can do against very fast gens. Now, they can rush gens at the cost of allowing a 3-gen or slug snowball, but against the survivors who just don't go down, and have match awareness, that doesn't work either. Survivors have never needed items or gen rush stuff or second chance stuff to win. That's all just extra advantage. Overall, the math of the game does not support the killer winning; There's not enough time.
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The killer can't just brush most of these perks off like nothing. That's why they complain about them. DS and OTR force the killer to not tunnel, or else have a really bad time, because the survivor will get a stun or a free sprint burst. The killer can go for someone else and come back to them when those perks are up, yes. But then those perks have essentially served their function: you didn't get tunneled. You're not entitled to getting to use those perks, get away and say hehe, and have the killer leave you. Either the perks will deter the killer from doing something optimal, or he'll get punished by not respecting the possibility that you've got that perk. Same with Unbreakable.
Some of your perks obviously are like a 5th killer perk, like Red Herring. It just wastes time. Or No Mither, except in cases of slugging, in which case the killer MUST hook that person, which takes away an option that could help them win, which would be slugging that person. But like Urban Evasion, Self Care, other stuff you haven't listed here, those lose the survivors so much potential. There's way better perks to bring.
And some of your explanations make no sense. How would a killer even know they have Sole Survivor? And how would leaving them til the end be beneficial to the killer instead of the survivor? That's the whole point of bringing the perk, that you outlast your teammates, and open an exit in seconds, which the killer can't really counter. And how would the killer see a survivor's aura on exit just because they have Wake Up? You know it's showing their aura to their teammates, right? Not to the killer?
And I disagree. Survivors can cover a lot of bases with their perks, whereas killers cover like 1. Any killer who's tunneling, or sometimes who's not tunneling, is gonna feel the pain of getting hit by DS, OTR, DH, etc. You don't need OTR + DS + DH just to counter a tunneling killer, as they often claim. But gen defence on the other hand really only works against teams that were inefficient on gens anyway. Teams who do gens in 4 minutes, the slowdown really doesn't matter, because it just equalizes the speed, at the cost of your bringing anti-loop or info stuff. The killer needs a slugging build to slug, because simply putting in Knockout is not enough. But 1 Unbreakable can ruin that plan. I don't know how the killer is "comfortable" with someone having Unbreakable when he's slugging, since it makes doing so 10 times harder. Even if they've picked themselves up already, they still get the recovery speed.
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@Rulebreaker said:
It atleast well written gibberish.
For our 3 cents, slugging is a tool. It's not inherently bad, just like a hammer or knife it's how it's used that matters. The problem with slugging lies in the people. Your generally supposed to use the right tool for the job (in this case the right time), but people are saying they only have 1 valid tool (despite the very pointed looks at the decently filled toolbox) and keep trying to justify using that tool for every reason (this is our main gripe).
Slugging has increased, by how much we can all argue forever about but we've seen an uptick that's noticeable along with our discord groups and from what we see on the forums. We would confidently say with all these cases that there's some truth to an increase, what kind of slugging we can only guess again though.
Well, there's only 1 tool depending on the type of team. Tunneling is default to deal with good teams, because you'll lose to the time disparity by playing normally. But if they've got anti-tunnel perks, slugging is better. But if they're SWF and negate Knockout, tunneling becomes better again. Notice that it's not really the killer picking this "oppressive, best strategy" like would be in any other game. It's more like picking "the most reliable, least worse strategy." Had hooking remained a viable strategy, people wouldn't be turning to these other, less fun strategies.
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@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3889677#Comment_3889677
Tell me what I should do with them when anti-slug, tunneling and camping are introduced? My games often give me such gifts. What should I do with them when the second phase goes into effect?
Well, consider what we Survivors did when 6.1.0 dropped. What did we do when MFT was nerfed? What did we do when FTP+Buckle Up was nerfed? What did we do when self-healing and Distortion was nerfed, among other things? We adapted and learned to play around it.
On the flipside, what did you Killers do when basekit BT was introduced? What did you do when the anti-FACEcamp mechanic was introduced, or the 8-regression event limit was introduced? You still found ways to play around it. And I have no doubt that you'll do the same with whatever new system they come out with.
Unless, of course, you do decide to uninstall DBD, in which case, so long, and thanks for all the hooks.
Yeah, but survivors didn't need those things. They didn't 3% bonus speed just for being injured, or having 2 invincible survivors after picking up in the killer's face. Regardless, survivors got praised for adapting. Killers adapted, and they got shamed for it. "Why are you still tunneling?! You're supposed to do this, do that!" And nobody's "playing around" the 8-kick limit. They just have to deal with it, and it's BS. Right? It affects killers who aren't 3-genning, and survivors could beat 3-gen killers without it. It's another thing survivors don't need.
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@tjt85 said:
MMR barely exists in this game and so long as getting you (or your opponent) into a game is the main priority, it never will. Arguably this is the way it should be because as 2V8 demonstrates, nobody wants to wait more than 10 minutes to play DBD.
I honestly don't think it does much unless you've just installed the game or you've queued up as a 4 man. I suppose it's possible to "boost" yourself as Killer if you bring 4 slowdowns (or perks that disproportionally destroy Solo Q) and as Survivor if you queue with a 3 man that stacked the best items & add-ons with a game plan to slam gens (or they are much better at the game than you are and can save you often / occupy the Killer). In these cases you'll win more often than you "should", but for the rest of us I think MMR is just a roll of the dice. To speed up someone else's queue time, you'll get backfilled into lobbies against opponents you shouldn't be matched with at least as often as you'll get reasonable matches.
I think there are essentially only 2 match-making tiers: A testing bracket for new players (sometimes even this is ignored) and a huge pool full of everybody else.
I would honestly like to go back to 1-minute queues for survivor. Yes, it would take longer than seconds, which it's at now. But you at least knew what you were going up against. You'd have equal skill teammates and killer, and assuming you played well, you'd almost always win. That's what we complain about a lot: We get constant sweats as killer, but never enjoy the OPness of survivor because of solos wack matchmaking. And we wouldn't want to be beating killers constantly forever, oh no. Like before, the devs would see that killers, with all their perks, strategies, and efficient play, were still struggling to get 1-2 kills, and would have to buff them. So essentially what we're suggesting they do now is do what they should've done 4 years ago, or whenever MMR was put in, but better late than never.
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@HeroLives said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3890285#Comment_3890285
HUA(heard understood acknowledged). Yeah I absolutely agree that it should move more towards sbmm and your performance vs the one we have now. Bc I personally think very similarly on this topic specifically. I just hope that for survivors evader and lightbringer and weighted heavier than the other emblems when considering skill/performance. What do you think?
It would be a good idea. Survivors would want to get a decent amount of time on generators and in chase, not just do 1 or the other. Them having incentive to want those things, at the cost of being inefficient let's call it, would take a lot of pressure off the killer to get people out as fast as possible. And surely his emblems would be incentivized as well, like the ones for hooking and for keeping gens up as long as possible, which would prompt the devs to make non-tunnel chases and gen defence viable again. I like it.
And thanks for the question about draws and ideal outcomes of a match. I haven't legitimately had to question myself on what I really want in this game... in like forever. It made me have to put those thoughts into words, and that was quite intellectually stimulating.
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What's certain is that he does in fact need an add-on pass. A lot of his add-ons are just inferior versions of other add-ons he has, whereas other killers, especially the new ones, have add-ons that pretty much all have unique effects. And some of his are just useless, like the zombies turning yellow after hitting a survivor, or killer instinct lasting a few more seconds.
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@Thusly_Boned said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3889897#Comment_3889897
I agree, if the game is lost and my one remaining teammate is just hiding, I'm not gonna extend it just for the heck of it.
The point of the game as surv is to avoid death and escape, if escape is no longer a realistic outcome, I'll die in chase or pushing a gen. There are limits to "but the point is to avoid death". I don't mean to seem like I'm condoning going next, I'm talking about like there's 4 gens still up and only two of us are left; a real "the game is effectively over" scenario.
And what if you avoid being found for an hour? You've lost anyway, wasted your own time, and gained nothing. Pointless.
And let's be honest, just immersing and trying not to be found may be the easiest thing to do in DbD, you're not even using any skill. There's no fun in it.
Yeah, like at some point you just admit "We've lost." All the other games of this genre at least had players who understood that, and didn't demand anything extra be given to them. If I was in a losing match on Friday The 13th, I'd just do as long a chase as I could, even if there was 10 minutes left on the clock and no realistic way of escaping.
And you're right. There's no skill in hiding. The killer just cannot physically get you... because he can't find you. That's why Ochido's video of "I juked Tru3" from back in the day was such a joke, because he hid for all of 5-10 seconds, on those old dark maps, when we all know survivors make zero sound at random times.
The devs have to realize that sometimes, and I mean sometimes, your audience does not know what's best for them. Most survivors on this game are ultra casual, and would hide forever if they could, because the killer doesn't have anything at base except the AFK crows to find them. But even the experienced survivors can take advantage of it. The devs need to push looping as the skillful thing. Don't get rid of stealth altogether. Survivors can have their Dance With Me, Quick & Quiet, Lucky Break, etc. But leaving it up to mere chance for the killer to find people, when they've just been hiding for 5 minutes, that's not fair/fun for the killer player. You've got to give the killer a "closing out the game" mechanic. Survivors have hatch for free and that's never questioned. Why can't killers have something?
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I was hoping for more. We all wanted Vecna from Stranger Things to come to the game. Instead, we got Vecna in the form of a Dungeons & Dragons chapter, because that's so on-theme for DBD, right? 🤦♀️ And while I welcome the return of Hawkins, it's still a stupid map. There's a million walls and pallets for the killer to navigate, almost impossible to win on. And I don't even get to enjoy the power trip on the survivor end, because apparently when survivors get on my team, they don't know how to run the map at all, and instead do the worst plays possible. I was hoping for Demogorgon buffs as well, which we kind of got, but not without him getting A NERF in exchange.
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@HeroLives said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3890274#Comment_3890274
I mean at the highest 2 on average make it out, and 2 die according to statistics. Isn’t that a draw? What’s a draw to you? Should at the highest level if equally skilled sway one way or the other? I’m just asking to see where you head is at, this isn’t a trap on my end. I feel like if the best teams are going against the best killers 2 out is a tie and what would happen on average if it is balanced.
If we're trying to force 100% fairness on everyone, it would be 50/50, 2 escape/2 die. But we're talking about 1 side supposedly being the power role, which the other side has to escape* against. Almost always, when the killer gets a draw, the survivors were on the cusp of winning, and not just at the very end, but pretty much the whole match. The killer, if he's playing as well as he can, shouldn't be struggling and under pressure the entire match. And I know that's hard to balance out when you take the other side into account, how well they're playing and what kind of pressure they deserve to be under, etc. So that's probably why the game should be pushed towards skill-based matchmaking, which we don't have.
We have a system that weighs only kills and escapes as to who did well and who didn't. It's easy to see that you can play really well as killer, and get beat out by advantage alone, or play way better as survivor than your teammates, yet you're the one who dies. That's not a lack of skill, that's just what happens. But people have been conditioned to only look at the result to determine skill. I think how well they looped or did gens, or how many hooks the killer got, should be a determiner of skill. But until we have that system, I'm gonna scrutinize the one we've got. And it seems like the way survivors get draws and wins is arbitrary, like no matter how well the killer does, they're just supposed to escape anyway. Look at hatch, a literal free escape, which opens in the case of their team's loss, or a win, just to give survivors more advantage.
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Right now, Pain Res, No Way Out, Remember Me, and some other perk like Brutal, Agitation, or Deadlock. It's the only slowdown build that still works, as long as you kill the obsession before they can open the gates, and get your stacks on your perks.
If that's not really your style, I do reminisce about my previous main build. A while back, I focused on pure chase with no slowdown or info, so I had STBFL, Rapid Brutality, Superior Anatomy, and Unbound. It made loops like shack actually playable. It was just intense all the time though, because you have literally no slowdown, and so you had to kill or slug the whole team in like 5 minutes tops. Oftentimes I'd have to settle for the draw. Draw By Default, DBD's true name. But it beats getting losses all the time.
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A perk made for SWF to abuse.
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@Nazzzak said:
Yeah, I've always said the same. Peanits (a dev) even said as such once here on the forum. The game is designed to give you more difficult opponents the better you do. It's designed to get harder, so you have to work harder if you want the same results. So if someone feels they have to bring the strongest perks and add-ons, or have to play a certain way, and even then they struggle, it can usually indicate they are indeed at a level they should not be at. This goes for both sides but I do think we see it more in killers purely because it's easier to rise in MMR as killer than as survivor. I suspect it's why we see poor baby killers getting landed with experienced survivors sometimes and get steamrolled. I think it's intentional to stop them rising too fast, because baby survivors are too easy to steamroll in turn. But that's just a theory, I could be way off and it's just terrible matchmaking lol
And he was wrong, because he doesn't understand the game. Your survivor opponents do not become more difficult, skill-wise. The advantage they have, and their ability to capitalize on it, does. You doing better as killer would be getting 12 chases and 4 kills, instead of 4 chases and 4 kills. But for some reason, the game makes it impossible for you to do 12 chases, so you resort to the latter, and that's you capitalizing on an advantageous strategy, not you employing more skill. It's the same thing with what survivors bring. If they're bringing instaheals, they can heal or take an extra hit mid-chase, which they couldn't do with regular medkits. They didn't physically play better, but they'll perform better. But those survivors are hardly called into question of playing above their skill level, since they're bringing the best stuff. No, it's only the killer's inability to beat them that is scrutinized. That's why every single update Peanits was in charge of writing had this air of doublespeak about it, where for example "We're nerfing Pain Res, even though it's at comfortable power level/usage rate to us, because the killer simply* puts the survivor on the scourge hook and knocks a sizeable chunk off the gen, which isn't fun for the survivors."
He disagrees with us on MMR, because he said that's how the game's designed, to supposedly give you challenging opponents. We're in agreement that the MMR system is screwed up. It puts opponents and teammates together who have no place being in the same match. 2 survivors: armed to the teeth with meta perks, other 2 survivors: being in no items then search chests instead of do gens, the killer: armed with meta perks. Hmm, I wonder why the survivors lost? Maybe it's because half of them weren't even trying. But the moment 4 survivors know what they're doing, and go against a killer of equal hours and skill, the killer gets 3 hooks and 0 kills. Shouldn't those conditions instead result in an "ideal" 60% kill rate, a draw?
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@Defnotmeghead said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3889291#Comment_3889291
Also true, but that would also mean that 1 side did not optimize their gameplay. Which would still be a skill issue on that end.
If survivors somehow optimized their games on average to a point where 10 extra seconds on smaller maps allows them to win, because otherwise they would lose more often, then that means killers have not been optimizing their games in the meantime. Arguably because they have been able to rely on something they shouldnt have been able to rely on that consistently.
This change simply means killers have to rethink how to play the game. Find ways to create deadzones early on in generator dense zones, find ways to zone survivors in directions you want them to zone or force them to tank a hit and go where they want for a reduced total chasetime. Hook people strategically rather than just the nearest hook (spending those 5 extra seconds to get them in the center of your gen-dense area can often mean forced hooktrades or even a free hookstate because you can prevent unhooks consistently while keeping an eye on your gens). It's rare that I see those strategies employed these days, and they almost always happen by accident, while back in the day, it was pretty much a guaranteed early kill without needing to tunnel at all since there would always be 1 person on the hook.I've seen what you're suggesting, and it just doesn't play out like that in a match. Not against good survivors. I'm not better off spreading injures, taking "good chases" while Corrupt is up, than I would be simply tunneling. That's why I stopped running Corrupt, and playing hit and run. You can free up a few pallets so that survivors can't run their later, but how do you know it's the right spot? How do you know the survivors are gonna push that gen later? The truth is you don't have control over where survivors go. And even if you break a pallet or 2 in an area, there's still 2-3 more. You think you can afford all that looping time and the gens are still under your control? No way. You leave a gen for 30 seconds, from zero, and it could be done before you get back. You could check stuff like that more often, but at the cost of commiting to a chase when you need to. The time crunch that killer is under never turns around into an advantage. You're just playing damage control the whole time. And if you lose track of hooks, game over. That right there proves the need to tunnel, against good survivors.
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@GentlemanFridge said:
While I partially agree, I think it's also worth pointing out that players have also optimised their play more and more. The skilllevel that sufficed when Pyramid Head released is simply lower than the skilllevel required now.
Another, more concrete example. Years ago, people still did totems. Nowadays, you'll get flamed for even starting one if there's no hex in play.
And optimal survivors are 10 times stronger than an optimized killer. What is the best killer player in the world to do against a team who does 5 gens in 4 minutes, who can't be tunneled, camped, or slugged, because their perks and team play have all the bases covered? It doesn't matter how good a killer is at chasing, if they physically can't do anything within the very limited allotted time.
You just don't see stuff like that as often because we have a screwed up MMR system that hides the true balance of the game by forcing mismatches. The reason I complain all the time, despite getting my fair share of killer draws/wins, is because oftentimes those matches were extremely close despite the survivors not playing well at all, or sometimes because I lose and there was nothing I could do simply because the survivors were decent. And then I have to sit here and watch people say, "Killer is turn your brain off mode. No effort required." No, our brains are working overtime, because we don't even get individual hook counters, which survivors do get.
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@Defnotmeghead said:
I think a lot of players, on both sides, have complaints about balancing changes, because they dont realize they have been MMR boosted and facing opponents they shouldnt have been able to face in the first place. I'm taking killer specifically for this post due to current changes affecting them the most, but its also true for survivors when medkits were being changed, or when MFT got changed (people saying they now needed to genrush to compete with the killers they were facing, like, duh, you boosted yourself and now you have to deal with the consequences of that).
Think about it, for killers claiming that its impossible to win without slugging, in the past 4 years the following things happened:
Gens have been increased by 10 seconds.
Mapsizes have been reduced.
Basekit generator kicking applies 5% damage and the gen keeps regressing untill the survivor fixed the 5%.
Chase related interactions are 10% shorter for killers, and survivors received a 10% nerf in boost duration.
DS has been nerfed to a point its rarely being used.
Killers in general have been upped in strength.
Less pallets on average.
Less windows on average.
More hooks per square meter of map so less time carrying survivors to hooks.
And sure, BT has been made basekit, sure, hook timers have been increased by 10 seconds. But how often does basekit BT actually trigger unless you tunnel? How often do survivors stay on hook for longer than 60 seconds?
All in all, the game should have been easier for killers in general to the point where they didnt need to rely on slugging, tunnelling and 4 gen regression perks. But yet people did. And now they face survivors who are basically out of their league to the point that they have to keep relying on the things that boosted them to those brackets in the first place.
And while I think there are some valid points, I am also 100% convinced that the vast majority of players have accidentally MMR boosted themselves and now simply have to deal with the consequences untill their MMR lowers to more realistic numbers.
The game has objectively been getting easier for killers, yet you claim its harder than ever. Then maybe the conclusion should be that you're facing opponents that are out of your league.Maybe the game is so fundamentally broken to the survivor end of things, that all those changes still weren't enough to help the killer? Did you ever think of that? If we're "playing above our skill cap," why do comp killers use these same strategies?
You're right, the game's harder than ever despite the buffs, because for every 1 decent buff killers get, survivors get 2. Gens regress 5% per kick, but they block after 8 kicks. Survivors didn't need that to win. I have no idea what you're talking about with the hooks and pallets. The hook spacing still sucks, and there's a loop around every corner, and not just weak ones either. I called it way ahead of time, btw, that a mere reduction of map size would not equate to more pressure on gens.
You really lost me at the DS use rates. Maybe survivors don't run it as often because they don't need to? Many good survivors will still run it, because it's part of what makes them invincible, but many others are like, "It's so difficult for the killer to down me, I just won't run DS, and will counter tunneling with loop time/gen speed alone." They can do that. And of course, DS simply being in the game forces killers to play around it, because it's so strong. Not very fair, is it?
I don't think multi-thousand hour players like myself are boosted. We're using strategies, effectively, in order to win, because we've found that they're the best, most consistent strategies for winning. That alone takes game knowledge and chase execution. No killer says, "I'm gonna decide to tunnel," and gets tons of wins if they don't even know how to chase well. But a survivor can mess up and get downed, hear that DS is a strong perk, so they have it, mess up and get downed again, and that's a free stun on the killer. That's across the board. Killer is only strong at low level where survivors don't even do gens. They don't take advantage of all they've got, so a perkless, add-onless Pig is just able to demolish them.
I mean seriously, you're downing survivors back to back, beating them out at every loop you can actually do something at, and then 5 gens are done and you've got 5 hooks. You have way less info than the survivors for some reason, literally have to count hook states with coins or something out-of-game. You've got loops like shack and jungle gyms where no matter what direction you come from, the survivor has check spots where they can simply react and get a free lead on you. You've got survivor perks that turn them into Terminator, getting free health states and stuns and instaheals off hook, whereas every single slowdown of yours except No Way Out/Remember Me has been nerfed. Just look at the history of killer nerfs. We've lost so much, not just in terms of power but of build/playstyle diversity.
It's easy to put the burden of "Maybe you're just bad" on the killer, because they're human and make a mistake every once in a while. But if you look at the gameplay loop, the game is built upon survivors making mistakes. They go down in 10 seconds, you probably win. They go down in 60, you probably don't. They run meta perks, you lose. They run useless junk, maybe you win. But the game doesn't take this stuff into mind. What its balance scheme assumes is that the killer is a dominating top player using the best stuff, and the survivors are helpless low levels who don't know what they're doing. I'm sure of that, because every time we go against survivors who play well, who do know what they're doing, it's not an even match but a complete group bullying simulator where the stars have to align for you to win. Obscuring the true flow of the game by saying, "Not all survivors are good" and being forced against bad survivors as you're a really good killer, because of the bad MMR system, that's not balance. That's burying your head in the sand because you don't want to address the real issues.
Just because "the majority" of survivor players can't beat good killers, or just because a majority say that the game's killer sided, that doesn't mean the game is killer sided. You've handheld the bad/mediocre survivors to such an extent that they now expect the game to be molded around them. They don't have any incentive to improve as players, because 1) the killers are so weak they usually don't have to, and 2) a random nerf will soon arrive and then they won't have to deal with whatever killer is giving them trouble anymore. The game is made easy for them, and as a consequence, killers and survivors of equal skill at high level have the worst balance imaginable, literally killers having to fight like their life depends on it while the survivors are chilling, and it'll still be a draw at best anyway. All this skill questioning of the killer players, constantly, stems from people not understanding this stuff.
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If the hits are generous for the killer, you've just got to play around that. Take it into account when you loop. It's why I don't really mess with Resilience or Finesse, because they still rely on people having good connection. And there's plenty of rollback on the killer end as well: rollback hits at pallet stuns, auto-aim (hitting the wall/pallet instead of the survivor), even rollback on the killer picking up a survivor (???).
I don't see them being worse than what we used to have, which was killers lunging WAY through windows/pallets, forcing you to play everything super safe. It might've been that way to play around the old pallet vacuums/fast vaults from any angle.
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DS is CLEARLY better! What are we even talking about? Nerfing DS to a 3-second stun didn't fix the perk, and rebuffing it to a 4-5 second stun was just a slap in the face to killers. Why? Because the problem with the perk is it forces another chase out of the killer after he successfully downed someone, or alternatively, it makes the killer's chase not count for anything. Normally, the survivor would just get put on hook again, because they got downed. With DS, either you get hit by it and leave, so that whole chase was a waste of time and momentum, or you commit to the DSer, literally having to chase/down them a 4th time to kill them. That's a lose/lose, and it works even if the killer just hooked all the other players, as long as the timer is still active. People can also body block/flashlight save, and jump into a locker or slow vault in the killer's face, and still have DS. It's so crazy abusable. The buff to the extra stun duration makes it to where you don't even have to go down near a loop to continue your chase; you can go down almost anywhere and be safe because the killer can't catch back up as fast.
OTR, while I don't like how LONG it is (80 seconds, are you kidding me?) or that it's power creep on Iron Will and Distortion (literally Iron Will without the exhaustion downside, infinite Distortion tokens for 80s), the perk is no DS. You get a sprint burst from the free Endurance hit, but contrary to popular belief, there killer isn't always just there to hit them right off hook. Even if so, they still have the other effects for 80 seconds. With DS, you'd get the same amount of distance or more just from the stun time.
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3890106#Comment_3890106
Yup, its a 1 time deal. 4 second stun. Its not worth an entire perk slot when there are other perks that are more viable.
OTR is 2-time use, and mimicks base BT or DH. How is that better than DS?
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@MrMori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3889402#Comment_3889402
I know it's a commonly mentioned take but I think if we begun to reward hook spreading instead of kills, even for MMR, with bonus points for hook actions instead of just camping hook states, we'd see more fun gameplay. Like slugging all 4 survivors then hooking them would give fewer MMR points or regular points or whatever, because you're getting fewer individual hooks.
The changes they're about to make which will make survivors spawn together will give killers more time to spread hooks without many gens popping very early. For now I'm just excited to see exactly how they'll be implementing these QoL changes, and especially the anti camp and anti tunnel changes.
Well, right now there's basically no upside to hooking. You get the survivor 1 hook closer to death, but then they're on hook immune for 70 seconds, their Terminator mode activates with DS, OTR, DH, etc, and then you've got to hook them 2 more times. It's really only the final hook that counts, because that's when they die and stop being a threat. What we should have seen instead was killers getting a mini Surge to all gens on the map, even if just a 2% regression, for each hook. And if they get a unique hook instead of hooking the same survivor twice, they get more regression, and if they've hooked everyone once, they get more regression. I've always hated Otz's take that Pain Res/Pop was OP because "you get tons* of regression while still tunneling someone." You actually don't. Even at their peak, Pop and Pain Res individually knocked like 10 seconds off a gen, 20 seconds at most, which is nothing especially if there's 2 survivors on the gen. But regression is at least something, because it slows the survivor objective. Without ways to slow that, killers will just resort to getting people out ASAP.
And I do think MMR should be hook-based and gen-based as well, and probably include a bit of the emblem system as well. If survivors are gen efficient, they're clearly good and their MMR should go up. If the killer gets lots of hooks, he's clearly good and his MMR should go up. The devs would have to make a massive push for hooks as a win condition, and make it clear to people, "This is what indicates skill, not just kills/escapes." Kills/escapes haven't been indicative of skill in forever. I can run a killer silly all match, and then martyr at the end for my 3 mediocre teammates to escape. That doesn't make me the worst player, and yet people believe that. I can be downing survivors back to back, outplaying them at every loop, but because they did the gens fast, they all run out. Does that make me a bad killer? Most seem to think so, because they only look at results. They don't recognize game knowledge and skill, because it's more subtle, and because they refuse to come to a logical consensus of what those are.
I don't think the survivors spawning together change is gonna be the godsend people think it is. If you haven't noticed, survivors already spawn together 9/10 times. I spawn in, 2-3 of my teammates are in my same corner. Yes, it makes the killer easier to find at least 1 of us if he goes to this exact corner (which I'm assuming is the opposite spawn position from him), but then we just split up on gens as usual, and shortly after his first chase, 2-3 gens could Pop. I don't see that scenario changing because of this change alone. And if they don't give killers anything in exchange for the camping/tunneling/slugging nerfs, and just say, "We're punishing you for playing like this... after we've essentially forced you to play that way." it's gonna be gnarly. Nobody's gonna wanna play killer. The killer is supposed to be a big threat, with meaningful power, not have all these restrictions that orchestrate them playing into the survivors' hands.
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@GentlemanFridge said:
I don’t even think that balance should be the end goal to begin with.
A perfectly balanced game is dull as all get out.
@Thusly_Boned said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3888816#Comment_3888816
Yeah, I don't think it should be, and I don't think it ever was or ever will be the goal. Sometimes it has been too imbalanced, but imbalance is in its DNA.
If that's the design philosophy that y'all subscribe to, you can't complain about any imbalance you see, just saying.
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Usually it's the opposite, where half the team is running to unhook and nobody knows what a gen is. Sucks either way.
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@Hex_Llama said:
I also feel tempted to let go on hook when it seems like the match is going badly. Not even out of spite — I just have a feeling like, "Oh, kill me now — I'm ready to die." However, I have a second impulse that says, "No, that's not fair to everyone else; you agreed to play the game," and then I stay in it. And, I know I've said this in other threads but, because I stay in it, I know that very often the match doesn't go as badly as I thought it was going to. Even if it starts with me going to second stage on first hook.
Yeah, I have been surprised when I've given these teams a second chance. I'm like, "These guys are doing better than I gave them credit for." It's just down to a moment at the end, usually, where you decide to risk it all for them, that decides whether you martyr, they die anyway, or you both somehow get out.
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
Edgy teens with knives, p.much.
Yep. The edgy young crowd that are all into Jeff The Killer, Death Note, Tokyo Ghoul, Higurashi, Battle Royale, all the slasher movies, etc, which all have that teen killer kind of vibe. They'll always be around to market to.
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@ShanoaLegendaryPlz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3889812#Comment_3889812
Was more of a joke as the 3 most annoying killers in the game besides legion lol. But i do still play her occasionally, and win often.The thing is they change how the killers work for 2v8 like wesker getting 3 dashes etc so i still think it would be possible if they buffed her up for the mode specificly.
Yeah, she would need both beams on her drones back, and you know what, probably just revert her completely for this mode. She'll get speed and stealth quite often, but there's killer classes who do the same thing.
I'm exchange for that, maybe limit her drones to 3 or something, because I've just thought about "3-gen" or in this case "6-gen" potential. 7-8 survivors barely understand how to push 2-3 of those 6 gens when there's only 2 killers. I've seen that firsthand. If they had drones to additionally "patrol" the gens, I don't think they'd ever make it out.
They're right. Probably just wait for her rework before putting her in the mode.
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@solarjin1 said:
doctor and clown should fit fine. i don't wanna see a permanent ability oni all match because of legion. I'm not against adding him but he would definitely need changes.
hoping for dredge, doc, artist myself
That's my fear as well. There's a few killers I really don't care for, because I don't play them and they're annoying to go against as survivor. Oni is one of them, so he's not a priority addition to this mode for me at all. They'd have to not give him any blood orb add-ons base, and extend the blood orb stall to getting uncaged (like when you get off hook and it doesn't spawn them for a while).
And idk, maybe that's one instance where 2 killers should be banned from playing with each other, Legion and Oni. If you design a killer around being really strong, like S+ tier, when he's in his power, and his power is fueled by survivors being injured, I think a killer whose ability is to mass injure shouldn't be able to be used in conjunction. That's a totally fair limit on killer power, in this instance.
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I could just say, "All the rest of them!" But considering licensed characters getting in is unique, I'd say the DBD OGs have a good chance of getting in.
Hag, Doctor, Clown, Plague, Oni (not looking forward to that), Twins, Trickster, Artist, Dredge, Knight, Skull Merchant, Singularity, Unknown, and Houndmaster would all make great additions to the mode. You'd have to tweak some of their powers, but they can work.
Dredge would have to lose the bad visibility during Nightfall. You just can't have him and another killer going around in the dark like that. Even I understand that.
Knight, you'd have to take away the 3x faster guard despawn when another killer is chasing near them, or at least make the multiplier less.
Singularity, you would obviously just add more EMP boxes, or maybe even increase the time to spread infection to others, although either way that would make him feel worse to play as.
But I don't foresee most others things being problematic.
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If I'm ready to go to the next match, I'm just gonna run and do a gen on death hook/injured. If the killer finds me, I'll do my best in chase, but if he gets me, hey, I get to go next. Or best case scenario, that leads to us winning because the killer wasted time hooking me, let me push gens injured, and didn't find me so we all (or almost all) get out.
Occasionally, and I mean occasionally, I'll just go next in the typical fashion you think of. But that's when I'm like, "Okay, these guys are hopeless." not even worth carrying type teams. And I think I'm a pretty good judge of when to do that. I'm very patient with inefficient teams, and so when I do it, it's rare.
Slugging will never count as holding the game hostage, because survivors will bleed out in a few minutes.
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If I'm hiding for the purpose of not dying, because I'm on death hook and me dying early will drastically increase the likelihood of us losing, but I'm still progressing the match, then I'll do it. But if it's like, "We're probably losing this anyway," I'll just do the gens and chases I can.
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@xGodSendDeath said:
I hope they change Knockout to just causing blindness when a survivor gets hit until healed or something like that. Blindness is not easy to apply and keep stuck through perks/add ons. I want a reliable counter to WoO and Third Seal is not it
They simply won't go for that, and I don't think that change is needed either. Have you tried Mindbreaker, or are you willing to try Huntress or Dredge just for their Blindness add-ons?
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Random sabotage buff! 1-second sabotages so survivors can have more fun and killers will slug more!
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I thought I saw killer at 25%, but that may or may not have been part of a dream I had.
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Unless you're on a killer rotation, you kind of get used to playing the same 3-5 killers. That's where I'm at, unless I get a daily, because in that case I play Doctor or Skull Merchant, or whoever, the best I can and be done with it. I think I'm really efficient with quite a few of them, but there's just some that I like playing more. Gotta play Unknown at least once when I get on.
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It was a bad idea to give different survivor classes permanent Dance With Me and Iron Will for free.
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I just want it remastered.
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@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3887120#Comment_3887120
I'm so sorry you feel the 1 in 10 coordinated not just meming swf matches you get feel weighted against you. Don't ever play solo queue consistently if that's beyond your tolerance for matches feeling unfair.
I play solo all the time. I've lost to killers I have no place losing to. I've carried the uncarryable. Just because the game is unfair for killers doesn't mean I disregard the stupidity on the survivor side. But at the end of the day, survivors have a matchmaking issue, not a balance issue. If you got good teammates every time, and a killer whose skill was matched to yours, it would be like a 90% escape rate, except at bottom level.
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I hate all of them. None of them are easy for killer.
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I don't think any of those killers are unmanageable. We really just need buffs for the weaker killers right now, because they just get slaughtered by survivors who have a hint of what to do. Some basically don't even see play, like Hag, Twins, Trickster, Artist. The more killers that are actually decent, the more diversity of them you're gonna see, not just at the top but at all levels of play. That's healthy for the game. Trust me, if I could undo all the bogus, random killer nerfs from over the years, we'd have A LOT of diverse playstyles right now. Hit & run Wraith/Ghost Face, M&A Deathslinger, Chase Merchant, Engineer's Fang/Box Pinhead, Pinky Finger Clown, hex builds, skill check builds, Spirit Fury/Enduring. All of that has fallen off in response to nerfs and to the untamed state of survivor. Just gen rush and loop decent, and the killer can't physically do anything to beat you. So now people just slug and play Nurse/Blight to heighten their chances.
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@Defnotmeghead said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3888161#Comment_3888161
Yeah, but I kinda elaborated how thats not really anti-slug since they can just down you again by semi-camping your body and you wont be able to pick yourself up for another 60 seconds. Like, you've already been downed for 34 seconds, and now you gotta wait another 60 seconds while laying still to get another chance at a self-pickup. I dont really count that as anti-slugging.
Effectively, killers can still slug 1 person when there is 3 left, have 1 person proxy-camp the body while the other goes to hunt the teammates. Then whenever they pick themselves up, you can down them and can join your teammate for a minute to find the rest.
But if survivors can crawl and recover at the same time, and have like 10 seconds of endurance, killers are kinda forced to make hatches spawn. Then they are kinda forced to pick someone up because if they dont, they can crawl somewhere safe for the next 30 seconds before they can pick themselves up the first time, and if you happen to be near, they have 10 seconds to reach the nearest loop.
I was considering Unbreakable basekit for a minute too tbh, because with the ease of hooking, I dont really see any reason to slug anyone for longer than 20 seconds. You just injure, break the nearby pallet and grab it, but then endurance would be too much and I think endurance on (self-)pickup is more important in these scenario's.You really think the killer can camp your body and not lose all momentum from doing it? Even if the survivors are already in a losing scenario like you said, don't they deserve to lose there?
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It's a fine change. I don't see a lot of killers or survivors DC because of maps though. I'm not sure this change was necessary.
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You've got to try at least. A game never became balanced where the devs didn't try. And if we're in agreement that it's not balanced right now, let's keep going.
I really think we need to take the emotion out though, in regards to perks and strategies. Exaggerate if you must. But nobody can assume that the other side wants a power fantasy, or assume that they're playing to make the other person mad (unless there's BM). Gen rushing, body blocking, flashlight/pallet saving, tunneling, camping, slugging, these are all things players do to win. They're not toxic.
Toxic is doing something to purposefully make the other side mad. Tunneling and flashlight saving can* be done with that malicious intent, but you can't blanket statement say that they're toxic to do. It's about the mentality, and the unnecessary BM (tbagging, hitting on hook repeatedly).
A big thing that's got to be looked at is the matchmaking. When we had ranked (random) matchmaking, we got random changes that nobody liked or asked for. Once MMR dropped, high level killers started appearing to do worse, so they got buffed. Then one day, it didn't matter what side was doing better. Killers like Freddy, Spirit, Hillbilly, Wraith, Deathslinger, Pinhead, Clown, etc started getting absolutely slaughtered with the nerfs regardless. Around that point the MMR was made more loose, lower levels could be matched with higher levels, killing any consistency in teammate quality in solo. That soon led to basically what we had before, random matchmaking, as well as MMR hell, where despite you playing really well you just kept losing because of your teammates, and so we started getting random balancing again.
You can't begin to dive into what things are strong in the game and why, if you don't even have consistency in matchmaking. So a huge part of "ladder" being mostly mismatches where 1-2 survivors are trying to carry teammates who don't know what they're doing, and the killer's still struggling as well, is killing the game. You've got to make MMR stricter. I don't care if queues go back up to a minute. If you give people teammates and opponents of like skill, you'll see less DCs, and you'll have data to actually base balance off of. The 60% kill rate right now means nothing, because half those kills are from cartoonishly bad, game-throwing situations. Some of those killers have no place getting wins, and some of those survivors have no place dying to those killers.
Once MMR gets fixed, we'll see same changes again. My guess is that the game will be revealed as very survivor sided, in which case we might actually see a nerf to SWF for once, so that solos don't have to suffer for how OP they are, and then killers will have reason to relax a bit. But even if I'm wrong on that, there's no scenario where the game gets better by simply giving up on balance, or by leaving matchmaking as it is.
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Yeah. Hurry up and lose. Or win. You never know until you try. You're not entitled to 5-10 minutes of hiding. People got things to do. Once it hits 2 remaining survivors, some anti-hiding thing should kick in after 5 or 10 minutes.