danielmaster87
danielmaster87
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3893005#Comment_3893005
I'm saying there's supposed to be this massive anti-slugging plan, that's so huge that it spans multiple phases of the year, and yet 100% of the changes so far are to benefit survivors, and there are 0 announced changes that will benefit killers.
Are any of the anti-slugging changes in this giant 2025 plan, going to help killers?
I doubt it. I've already seen people saying, "No, killers shouldn't get anything. They should just have slugging taken away." And those people have the devs' ear. Anytime survivors have a problem, it gets dealt with. Anytime killers have a problem, "Skill issue."
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Really illogical change. I guess killers just have to rely on getting lucky and facing teams weak enough to lose by hooking.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3892753#Comment_3892753
They deleted distortion, for exactly this problem, and have given killers 8346572 aura reading perks, abilities, and add-ons.
While I know that "anti hiding" is planned already, I genuinely feel that "finding survivors" is a fundamental killer skill. You can genuinely find people without aura reads at all, if you use game sense and are even vaguely aware of your surroundings.
A huge portion of these "I can't find survivors who are hiding from me" result in "oh, apparently they were in the basement and I didn't think to check there for some reason".
That's just making up fake history. After Distortion was nerfed, they added exactly zero aura perks to the game, ones that highlight survivors directly anyway. Or if we count the ones that show progressed gen auras, 1.
And this talk of skill in regards to tracking hiders. It has nothing to do with skill. If you've searched the whole map, and can't find the survivors, because you missed a pixel of their body in the corner of your eye, that's not a lack of skill. That's just being human. And there's an implication that hiding takes skill. It doesn't. The killer just can't find you. Skill would be looping. That's what the game has been pushed towards.
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@cesspoolechochamber said:
The same reason I don't want to play a match against farming killer. People do actually want to play the game. You know be chased and such. If survivors are holding the game hostage it's probably the way you are playing and you probably deserve the toxicity
Wow.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3891662#Comment_3891662
In this case, waiting last second to unhook iskinda pointless. The killer isn't even proxicamping, it's obvious he's chasing survivor C in a different part of the map and survivor D has been on a Gen. The info you gain from the UI as a survivor does a pretty good job at painting a total picture for game sense. I'm not gonna nitpick too much more at the ridiculousness of some of the time details, just that in your example... the obvious correct time and person to get the unhook is survivor B as soon as it was obvious the killer was busy.
As for preventing tunneling... You can play towards that if he starts acting like he might. As it stands, the only thing you accomplish by leaving someone on a hook who ISNT anywhere near a killer is keeping them unproductive.
Sidenote though... I'm not Daniel. The idea that your arguing against perceived points I didn't say because your familiar with someone else is silly.
During this whole hypothetical situation, I was just kinda giggling at how much had to happen in order for a gen to not get done which included mean mugging for awhile so the pain res would hit the "right" gen, followed by a survivor being so scared of a possible 99 that he completely disappeared from the equation. The survivor he was mean mugging BTW only got 5 seconds of gen progress done before realizing the killer crossed the map AND had time to 99 stalk him. You sure this is Ghostie, cuz he's SPRINTING, lol. Can we agree this point was essentially a joke and get a laugh in. Ghostie ain't doing all that so fast.
I wouldn't have humored the hypothetical. Like you said, it's endlessly speculative angles of "What if the survivor did or thought X, in which case it's not their fault?" But I always lean towards what you've argued here. "What are the survivors doing?" Because the killer is expected to play optimal, and every mistake is scrutinized, but survivors aren't held to either.
@ratcoffee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3891664#Comment_3891664
I know you're not Daniel, which is why I apologized for falsely assuming you were defending his point, explained in a very measured way the point I was trying to argue against while explaining I understood that was not your point of view, and gave you a very good opportunity to gracefully stop trying to pursue a pointless fight. Judging by your response, the importance of trying to deescalate and avoid unnecessary conflict is a personal value shared by one of the two of us.
My comments can be quite absolutist at times. My main point is not that survivors should ALWAYS lose in those situations, but that they should at least be worse off throughout the match because of it. But the likelihood that a start like that was created by survivor mistakes, and the likelihood that they'll continue to make blunders, are both quite high.
And my point about survivors being worse off... You don't really 'feel' that as killer, as I've said in another discussion. That's because killer is on the back foot pretty much from start to finish, hence why they play sweaty from start to finish. I disagree with the common notion that, "Killer starts off super weak because all 4 are alive and on gens, but then later he gets super strong!" Where does this supposed period of strength begin? What, 1 hook on someone, just because they have to send someone to the rescue? That doesn't do anything in the grand scheme, because it's too much time investment for too little slowdown/progress on your objective: killing. There's been so many matches where I or other killers are making pretty good time on chases, pressuring gens, detaching at the right time, if not downing survivors back to back to back... resulting in 1 gen left, or all gens done. How could the killer be considered strong or in control, when him playing really well usually results in really close matches?
And I'm not always empathetic to random solos, because they usually complain about killer being too strong, even when they're clearly not playing well themselves, complaining about aura perks and Wraith and stuff. If they'd complain about the MMR system, which is clearly the underlying problem, I'd hear them out more. If you're mad because you know you're carrying your team every time, and are just getting killed by them, I feel for you. But more often than not, they willingly support a game state that lets bad survivors beat really good killers.
I like to deescalate as well, but it's also important to be firm, and it seems like the devs do the opposite. They coddle the weakest among us so that the most skilled and dedicated suffer. And I have no doubt that they intentionally benefit off the "us vs them" that their inconsistent matchmaking/balance scheme creates, because like politics, they just want to distract to avoid being asked the tough questions, to be given low expectations, to do little and be rewarded handsomely.
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@czinsation said:
The biggest issue with slugging, in my opinion, is the killer is not punished much for doing it. Worst case scenario the survivors that are left can maybe get the slugged survivors up or the killer loses track of the survivors and they bleed out.
I'm really disappointed that behavior's first choice to deal with slugging is a "give up" button for survivors instead of something like base kit unbreakable. It's a bit similar to how they deal with tunneling without actually dealing with tunneling. Ultimately slugging and tunneling are strategies that give an enormous amount of value relative to the required skill, but pose very little risk to the killers.
You're wanting to punish killers for doing the last thing they have left to do. It's the optimal play as well. And why should there be tons of risk? Survivor optimal play is now running into the corner of the map, because the killer can't possibly get to the gen he needs to before it pops, whether he hooks the person or slugs. There's no risk or punishment for that.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3891962#Comment_3891962
But 3 years ago the game was not really survivor-sided. It was pretty balanced, but it shifted to killer-sided over the past years. 2021 was not 2016, 2021 the game was fairly balanced.
No, the game has never been balanced, especially not in the killer's favor. These buffs have been crumbs. Like @SpaghettiYOLO said, killers get slight buffs to their hti recovery time, their kicking speed, and how much sprint burst they give survivors off hit, and survivors lose their minds. In fact, 6.1.0 still gets complained about to this day, as "the update that killed the game for survivors," when basically every killer buff except the ones I've mentioned have been taken away or curtailed in time.
The periods that you reference had god loops like Ironworks window, old Ormond, nerfed Pop, ridiculous gen speed and gen tools, crazy healing speed, infinites, instant gen completion BNP, true insta-heals, linked loops where you almost never had to throw the pallet, unnerfed Balanced, old Dead Hard, etc. It was no paradise for killer. And survivors losing all those advantages is seen as an attack on the role, instead of just balance. They actually No, an attack on a role was on killer in 2020 - 2022, which was like 2 straight years of killer nerfs against Freddy, Spirit, Hillbilly, Wraith, Deathslinger, Twins, Nemesis, Pinhead, Pop, Pain Res, Ruin, Undying, and so much more. Nobody batted an eye. But if the devs suggest bringing back incentives for hooking, or making killer's chase power stronger, they'll say the end times have come, again.
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@Albanactus said:
The announcement, the way it was framed, came across as anti-killer, as if 'we are survivors' and killers are some other people who need to be punished for not following certain chivalric code that goes with the game. From experience I doubt BHVR will actually be so anti-killer in practice, they know that killers are needed, if killers disappear then the survivors who are 4/5th of their player base will have to play against boring bots. I'm probably 50/50 killer survivor these, days, formerly killer main, around 3K hours across platforms, slugging isn't actually that easy to do effectively. And frankly tunnelling is necessary in high MMR encounters, gen pressure alone generally won't work against strong SWFs, quite the opposite of some of the ridiculous claims in this thread that tunnelling is done only because of badness or lack of skill. I hate going solo and getting tunnelled, it's not a good experience, but let's cut the BS about tunnelling being something that isn't ever necessary or only done by unskilled killers.
When it comes down to it, if a killer has two survivors in the vicinity in a recently unhooked situation, an injured one on death hook and a healthy one with no hooks, it's completely irrational not go after the injured one, esp. (as is often the case for survivors in the unlucky position) when the injured one is someone already known to be worse at looping. If you want to change that rationality, you have to make adjustments that change the underlying incentives, and if you do something like give base kit OtR after 2nd hooks you need to compensate killers in a way that is balanced across MMR levels.
In a lot of games you can tell that when you are winning comfortably and don't need to tunnel, & I would avoid it because I want to double pip and don't want to be a meanie, but if they gens are flying you need to do what you need to do. That's the game BHVR created, it's not perfect experience, BHVR have always struggled to balance changes for high MMR and low MMR, solo q, killer and SWF, but the game's hardly a disaster like people are making out… we're all playing it. People will always gripe about about something, about the pot holes in the roads or the price of gas, it doesn't mean a violent revolution is needed.
And that's how it always is. I mean, look at this:
@jajay119 said:
they also need survivors and given there is a pretty consistent 300% bonus for survivors on 1v4 and 400% on 2v8, which is up from an average of 250% in the last iteration, perhaps it’s time to start considering that they don’t need to worry as much about the killers right now. Survivors make up the majority of the play base and if they’re losing them, which they seem to be at the moment, it’ll have a massive impact too. Killers are already complaining they can’t get matches for ages and that’s with the incentives in place.
The announcement came across as anti-killer but the reality of how it’s going to work is arguable pro-killer at worst and pro-status quo at best. However, I’d happily take longer waiting times if it means getting rid of some of the ‘I need to get a 4k every match an will do anything to get it’ killers that are plaguing the game at the moment and still calling for it to be easier."Killers wanting to get more kills is a plague to the game!"
I disagree that you can 'tell' when you're winning and when you're losing. It's a sweat fest from start to finish, and survivors have outrageous comeback potential. Until that last survivor is dead, slugged, or standing in the exit gate, you don't know for sure that you've won. Even if you are clearly winning hard, that doesn't mean you let up, because again, they'd be able to come back from it. I've had 3-4 slugged, and then random Unbreakable/reset happens, and everyone is up and healthy for the rest of the game. I've seen teams come back from impossible situations, because they actually pushed the gens and looped well (I guess their brains suddenly turned on), and you end up losing or drawing something you think you would've won.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
If I remember correctly, the changes to Flashlight clicking and the timing of Flashlight Saves were done in separate Updates. The timing of Flashlight Saves was changed when they removed the possibility to save someone when they are grabbed out of a Locker by the Killer.
I also dont think that the clicking was removed due to epilepsy (there are still things in the game which can trigger it, e.g. you have flashing light bulbs), but simply because Killers complained about it. Remember, those are the people who brought BHVR to change "Entity displeased" to "The Entity Hungers"…
When it comes to usage, I would simply say that making Flashlight Saves easier is certainly an aspect, but I think the main reason is simply that Medkits and Toolboxes have always been better (Flashlights are a pretty weak Survivor-Item and I never got the complaints about them, because every Survivor who is bringing a Flashlight is not bringing a Medkit and therefore way better for the Killer if they pay a little bit attention…) and that the game shifted more towards Killers so if you want to win, you cannot just equip a Flashlight anymore and be basically idle and just follow the Killer to get a Flashlight Save. This might have been a thing years ago that one Survivor could completely ignore the Objective and the Survivors still had a good chance of winning, but this is not possible anymore. If you have a Dude with a Flashlight not doing Gens, you will lose the game in 2025.
Sure, there are still players who dont care, but most players also want to escape and are therefore forced to do the Objective. And since Toolboxes speed up the Objective and Medkits make the team overall more efficient, they are used more often than Flashlights.
Those are not the same people. The clicking was annoying to anyone with a functioning brain, and was super BM, so it was removed. Not all of those people were in favor of the "Entity Hungers..." name change. In fact, nobody was in favor of it. Killers just didn't like how the old Emblem system worked, to where you kill 4 survivors and still: Entity Displeased, because you lost 4 gens really quickly, or had to 1-hook everyone, or something. They shouldn't have replaced the name; they should have made it "Brutal Killer." No reason to make players feel like they lost when they clearly won.
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@Brimp said:
"nerfed" flashlights have never been easier. 360's only worked on bad killers which conveniently people push in montages.
Correct. They've never been easier. You almost have to try to miss the timing, because that window and the angles are so generously wide.
But no, 360s worked on good killers as well, because they look like they clip through you as you're literally attacking them, and they don't get hit. The difference between survivor and killer speed should never allow that. It's part of what killed Friday The 13th for a lot of people. Spend all this time chasing someone, they spin their little joystick to get out of a deserved hit, and then keep running at full speed, literally gaining distance on you. There's different types, the regular 360 and the full 360, the latter of which still works on really good killers sometimes. It works hand in hand with the bogus aim dressing. If it didn't work, survivors wouldn't do it.
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@Peppa_Pigsaw said:
I consider myself an avid Xenomorph player because I do tend to go on tears with him fairly often. However this is one of the ONLY killers in the game that I need to actively take breaks from because of how awful he can feel.
1. Crawler mode forces your camera and FOV to be super low to the ground. This makes seeing on certain maps way harder than it has any right to and god forbid you try to walk through grass. It feels bad to have your vision obscured so heavily and it's not like Pig where I can swap between "gremlin mode" and standing up. If I want to use my power, I need to constantly be sniffing the dirt. Doesn't feel good.
2. Tail hitboxes are weird. They're janky and sometimes just don't function properly. I've seen tail attacks go through people and do nothing, I've seen it hit air and hit survivors, I've smacked an invisible wall countless times and all of this is accompanied by the fact that the attack itself has a delay to compensate for it always being ready. This in and of itself feels bad. Every other mid range killer, I press the attack button, I do the attack. Xeno has to do a wind-up to spear people and that simply just doesn't feel good. It feels janky and cumbersome sometimes and it can cheat you out of hits you would have gotten on the other mid range killers. This doesn't make me feel like the Xenomorph, I feel like an Elden Ring boss with a massive wind up to give people ample time to dodge.
3. The tail attack itself just isn't as strong as other killers. Sure his ZONING is great, but if you want to use his actual power, the fun part of it being the actual attack, then he just falls flat compared to others. Everything Xenomorph can hit over other killers like Nemesis, Dracula, and Deathslinger also can but those killers also have more range and/or other parts of their kit other than just the tail attack that can help them. The only mid range killer attack that imo is worse than Xeno is Demogorgon and even that's debatable because Demogorgon can break pallets and has a longer range than a tail attack. I could legitimately see an argument for Shred being better than a tail attack.4. Turrets are overwhelming. Turning a corner just to have your ears blown out with a lout and proud FSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSH from a turret doesn't feel good. Having your entire screen covered in flames blinding you doesn't feel good. Getting knocked out of your power because a turret was placed in a way you just couldn't reach it in time, doesn't feel good. If you're something that has sensory problems turrets ESPECIALLY can be extremely unappealing to play against.
5. Xenomorph has very little perk/add-on variety. You can't use any m1 perks because you will mainly get tail attacks for your health states. You can't use any stealth perks because turrets constantly give away your location. Most of your add-ons are objectively terrible and aren't worth running. Information perks can be a hit or miss because of how your tunnels spawn. There's not many perks for this killer I'd say are good. Most things just feel "usable".
6. Xenomorph is a buggy and broken mess. Setting aside tail hitbox shenanigans, there are several times turrets don't get destroyed by an attack, kick you out of crawler mode despite being destroyed, don't deactivate when coming out of a turret, or hit you behind obstacles. While he's nowhere near the level of bugginess that some other members of the roster is, he does have his bugs and they feel particularly punishing since…losing your entire power because a turret wouldn't break is infuriating.
I hope BHVR gives him a lookover sometime in the future, because imo he needs it. I don't even mind his current power at all and if anything I like it despite its problems. But I do wish BHVR could iron out some of the pain points.Good deep dive. Nobody wants a ranged attack with trash hitboxes, and nobody wants to play a killer who's constantly getting stunned out of their power.
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@Madmillennial said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3892379#Comment_3892379
I disagree. I've played against good xeno players and while yes you don't have to 50/50 to get hits especially against noobs, it definitely is at pallets and windows.
That audio q you get while in chase when he goes to use m2 helps you avoid it while running. But like neme and pyramid head if it's used at windows and pallets it's a hit
No. Sometimes, a lot of the time, it auto-aims to the window sill or the high end of the pallet instead of hitting the survivor.
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@[Deleted User] said:
For me, the flame turrets are incredibly annoying and repetitive. Completely turns me off from the killer.
I don't like the trend either, of killers having built-in counterplay that destroys their powers, like Xenomorph turrets, Singularity EMPs, being able to kill Victor, a million cures for Nemesis and Wesker, breaking out of Deathslinger's and Pinhead's chains so fast, etc.
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@Leon_Loves_Cheryl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3892407#Comment_3892407
That's fine in your trials. But not everyone thinks like you do, and it's narcissistic to believe otherwise. The way you play your trials as Killer isn't the way everyone else enjoys. Every Killer has their own Trial and the way they prefer to run it.
So speak for yourself.
Was that really necessary?
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@oopiejoopie said:
It's your job as killer to kill them. If they give up just get their game over with and kill them so you don't have to waste the other survivors and your time
Same thing with them losing really bad off the bat. Survivors will argue, "Why don't you let up on them since you're winning so badly?" I argue, "No. It would be BM, prolonging their suffering, to not end the game ASAP after that." It's all a matter of perspective, and keeping emotions out of your arguments.
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95% of the time I just kill them. I don't owe them anything. Occasionally, if I see they were the only one on their team who had a clue what they were doing, I'll let them go. But usually hatch drains my desire to give free escapes, because win or lose, rain or shine, hatch gives it to them anyway. I also don't like that it would slow my MMR gain or deny me of BP.
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I've always thought that commons in the bloodweb should be 1000, uncommons 2000, rares 3000, and so on. Not whatever half-measure math they did to get the current prices. Nice clean numbers would be better, and so would a higher BP cap. That's something I want to dive into, because there are actually people who supported the BP cap being at a million, let alone 2 million.
The rationale behind keeping the cap so low, as said by its advocates is that 1) The devs want people to play only sometimes but spread throughout many months (or something) instead of a lot all within a week, and 2) Killers shouldn't be able to over-level their stuff. Both reasonings ought to be trumped by the simple fact that it hampers the player experience, instead of improving it, because you're literally just capping how much a player can save up. They can play 100 matches after they hit the cap, and won't get any of their deserved match reward currency because of your arbitrary rule.
Anyway, Rationale 1 is wrong because having a lower BP cap doesn't guarantee player retention, or monthly player numbers, any more than a high BP cap would. But it's an annoying inconvenience, having to stop your streak of matches just to spend BP so that you don't waste your hard earned currency. For a lot of people, they'll spend their BP before they get off the game, or start with that the next time they get on, so you're actually encouraging them to stop playing (when they'd otherwise keep going) because you're accelerating them towards their natural stopping point.
Rationale 2 is even more ridiculous, that killers shouldn't be able to Prestige 3 the new killer quickly to test the lvl 3 version of perks, on all their killers, or use the new killer's add-ons, because it's "not fair" to the learning survivors. News flash: the killer is still learning as well, and even if the Tier 3 versions of those perks or those really strong add-ons are a lot to deal with, you're just gonna have to face up against it anyway as survivor, eventually. Why not start learning the counterplay now? It just makes no sense, the pushback against raising the BP cap. If it got raised to 999,999,999 like it should be, tomorrow, nothing in the game would change, except for better player satisfaction because their option to save up is no longer actively hampered.
They could also do BP bonuses way more often. There should be a 2x or 3x BP weekend... every weekend. It draws players in, and it gives them more BP. It's a win/win for the devs and the players. Or make the BP offering a separate slot from the other offerings. There's so much they could do. I really don't need all the extra BP anymore, because I'm currently focusing on getting multiple characters to Prestige 30. But other players aren't so well-off. I remember how long the grind was.
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@SummerBBQDwight said:
I know she is bottom picked killer based on community stats at least, but still… how does someone EVER even play her?
Her power doesn't even work. Her drones are still bugged last time I checked some week ago even months after she was nuked from orbit by devs. Like she is F tier allready and her power doesn't even properly work (her drones sometimes get stuck every few placements and do not rotate).
Like playing killer in general. Just get lucky enough to get inefficient survivors who aren't SWF, who don't strategize, who don't know how to run no-mindgame tiles, who don't run good perks, and/or who go down constantly. And news flash: the game has been balanced such that those teams can beat you now.
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@OneNineTwoNine said:
I know he isn't that strong, but just like Legion and Clown he is just an absolute snoozefest for me. If you're not in an area with high walls to loop around you will go down, no questions asked. It just feels like there's little to no interaction between the survivor and Trickster.
I wish people would stop equating "this killer sucks to play against and is boring" to "this killer is OP"
That being said, there are some Trickster mains that are genuinely really skilled and I think, despite them maining one of the most annoying killers in the game, they still deserve recognition for that skill.
Make him playable on console, and we'd have much better discussions about him. Because if a killer is not playable on console, all those players are just gonna call him low tier, or couldn't care less if he was deleted.
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There's enough people on here who would be like, "Why should killers get any compensation? This is just balance, how the game should be!" And the devs would role with that. Kind of what happened with the gen locking mechanic and the 70-second hooks.
Most likely they'll just get free Unbreakable, and there will be no buffs to hooking at all.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
good! fomo is bad and i wish theyd just bring everything to the store for a reasonable price, but having them available to purchase is a decent compromise
Yeah, I pretty much skipped the first masquerade event they ever did, because I saw they'd let survivors block windows against the killer, and I was like "Screw that. I'm not playing." Now I realize it wasn't such a big deal, and I'm missing those cosmetics. I wouldn't buy a bundle to get them, but others who want to should be able to.
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@RFSa09 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3891190#Comment_3891190
You can't lose if you play perfectly in either side, unless the other side brings stronger items, dbd is about the side who have the most meta stuff (maps are important too but anyways)
Wrong. There's been countless killer games where they were downing survivors back to back to back, and all the gens got done anyway. And when the gens get done, there's like 90% chance of multiple survivors escaping, meaning a draw or a loss.
If it's about having the most meta stuff, which you'd use to trump the other side's stuff, how is it also possible for someone to for you to never lose if you play perfect (playing your best)?
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@buggybug said:
Many times I scream at my swf based on which killer and situation to just leave, I do not care if I die. They know I want to die for them especially if am already iri one.
One of them is kinda stubborn like me though as we have such a strong brotherly bond lol. Solo q unless it was a person that I clearly see was being a good team mate, to help am leaving worst if they have noed against like a bubba with it.
I had a match 3 days ago where we attempted to protect a trevor being tunnel by a wraith sadly he didnt make it and sable for idk what reason makes him down her and hook her instead of leaving turning a 3s to 2k? Then again its a sable what do they not do that makes me?
I had many games where that one salt mine random come into my chat saying me and my swf leave them but darling you was urbanning around the map doing nothing all game Or I am iri in all emblems but am told I was useless one. How does one get iri in all emblems if they was useless? Too bad my ytd says different.
Anyways op once the last gen pop there is nothing wrong with leaving if you like to, teamwork techically ends after and you did the best choice in your scenario.
Yeah, mine too. "If you go to save against Trapper in basement you'll die too," I tell them. Later… "Aw, what?! Toxic Trapper camping basement, getting an extra free kill!" And I'd love to see a random message us about not coming to save them, when they hid and barely touched gens all match. Those same ones won't get go for free save in endgame, or don't understand how. But sometimes at the end, especially if you've got a dying streak going or you're in MMR hell, you should just play for you and leave.
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@SoGo said:
I had a reverse situation yesterday.
Played as the Deathslinger on RPD, and got beaten pretty hard.
Last gen pops, I down a Bill and hook him next to the outside stairwell. Camp him because well, it's endgame and everyone is still alive, so what else can I do. Jill (who I guess got kicked out or smt, I saw her bugged) leaves instantly. Feng comes for unhook, trades, and I manage to hook her and down Bill. Ace (the last survivor) is lingering around trying to save.
Eventually Feng gets sacrificed (she was on second stage), and I down Ace right in front of exit gates as the timer runs out. Both he and Bill die.
They flame me in the endgame chat even though they could have left at any time.
Yeah, it's always your fault, even though they made all the mistakes.
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Stop robbing him of his tail hits and people will play him. Make the hitboxes a little more generous for the power role, geez. CoD doesn't even require this level of precision for hits to land.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3890532#Comment_3890532
The problem is that it is once again the lazy way of dealing with things. Overall it is a positive change - BUT it should not be the only change happening.
OP has brought up 2 games, which is nothing. And while I would agree that people DC/give up over insignificant things, BHVR is not planning to do much against the frustrating things which can lead to people DCing/giving up. E.g. you can most of the time mark a game against a Nurse as a loss, since you basically have to hope that the player is just learning her. And while there are measurements against tunneling, camping and slugging in the works, those are a) months from now (could easily only come in 10 months) and b) we dont even know if they will be effective.
Let alone that forcing players to be stuck in an already lost game is also not really great. If there is a person giving up on their first Hook for whatever reason (despite them getting a penalty), the other 3 Survivors are forced to play out a game which they cannot win. And at this point you are only a BP-Pinata for the Killer.
So while the change is indeed good, it is just too little.
So their frustration should trump the other players' ability to the play the game. And then once the thing they're frustrated with gets removed, surely they won't continue to DC because of other things they suddenly find frustrating.
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@Daniel_Silva04 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3891816#Comment_3891816
Well, survivors also have many very strong perks and addons that they don't need to do anything to use them, like syringes and DS for example. So I think Deadlock is a fair perk.
Of course it's a fair perk. It was fair at 30 seconds of blockage, and now it doesn't even do that. It's barely more slowdown than a hit of Eruption.
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I wanna know "how?" How do you have 2 hooks before 1 gen pops? Makes no sense. The survivors must be playing awful. No killer can do that on their own power.
Buffing DS again would be a joke. It was strong as a 3-second stun, because the strength doesn't come from the stun duration. It comes from forcing the killer to waste a chase or chase the same survivor a 4th time to kill them. All those extra seconds are just extra, and make the perk a "turn your brain off" type deal, because you won't even have to go down near a loop to be safe.
And it's funny how you don't see any of the problems leading up to your predicament, and instead blindly blame the killer. Obviously if the Dwight was that inexperienced and the Blight was that experienced, it's a mismatch, a matchmaking issue. The other 2 survivors gave up, as they probably do often, because there's no little to no punishment for giving up. And then you hid instead of tried to win, wasting the killer and other survivors' time, because the pity escape mechanic was there. I understand your situation, but why do you get a free escape when your team played the worst possible? Why does the killer have to let up because people don't know how to play?
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3890609#Comment_3890609
Yeah, but survivors didn't need those things.
If you want to argue that, then neither did killers 'need' any of the buffs they've gotten over time. Smaller maps, weaker loops, shorter hit cooldown, shorter on-hit sprint, longer gens…
And they certainly don't 'need' to get their hands held now and be protected from fringe nerfs.
It affects killers who aren't 3-genning, and survivors could beat 3-gen killers without it. It's another thing survivors don't need.
If a high comp tier survivor team gets pushed to within an inch of losing, forced to stick around in a 45+ minute match against what was effectively a bot, then I think it's pretty fair to say that survivors do actually -need- the gen-kick limit.
Oh, you're referencing that match are you? That fluke, that clown show? If you believe that was a real competitive match, then there's nothing much else to say.
They knew the killer, who was clearly talking way above his head, would go for a 3-gen, and they took ZERO measures to avoid it. They just gave him a 3-gen for free, as Skull Merchant. That alone disqualifies their comp status. Then they proceed to mess around for a bit, needlessly resetting at times, throwing pallets they don't need to throw, not even tapping the gens (they could do that back then). And then even when they made the biggest misplay ever, getting downed in the 3-gen, and the killer actually picked the person up, what were the other players doing? Nothing. No flashlight save, no gen progress, in fact flashlight guy was just behind a wall standing around, others were just barely making their way back to the gens. They should have all piled on a gen and won right there, but they didn't. And in the end, after all those misplays, they still end up winning anyway. They're frauds. They live off reputation alone. And that match of theirs has been the biggest propaganda piece in this game's history.
In spite of all this talk about needing strategy and game awareness and skillful play to make a healthy game, y'all don't even hold "top players" to that standard. Whatever they do, y'all eat up as "top level play" solely because they call themselves a comp team. And I've never been one to make fun of the comp scene, because they're at least trying to push DBD to being competitive. But I do make fun of it when even I and my scrub SWF could have played better, and people still praise it.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3890302#Comment_3890302
Have you considered chasing the person who unhooked them?
I'm not sure how I can make the intention any more clear. If you simply, idk, don't tunnel; this system will never affect you.
Someone is going to do gens, that's kind of inevitable. It is better for you if someone injured does gens.
And we kind of accept that. We're just looking for ways to make survivors perpetually on gens less painful. The survivor who pushed a gen injured can be punished, but that's only if the killer abandons everything to go straight there and down them before they reset. Survivors don't mess around with healing speed; you've got like a 15-second window. And there's no point in not tunneling if the person doesn't have DS/OTR, but how would you know they have it until you get hit by them? That's the problem. You're playing around perks that might not be there.
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@SensualPotato said:
Yeah the 2v8 is suuuuper survivor sided right now. I play both sides equally and it's a cakewalk for survivor. The herbs are heavily in survivors' favor, especially yellow herbs since you're removing an ENTIRE hook state. For killer it just makes you….slightly faster. Imagine if the yellow herbs exploded all generators if a killer picked one up. It's already a pain in the ass to have to hook multiple people 3 times, but now I have to do it +4 times for several survivors each match? Yeah, not fun.
Before it felt fine with the bots in there, but the bots taking the yellow herbs was stupid too. But killers don't have the luxury of casually walking around the map in search of yellow herbs so they don't lose objective progress later down the road. If you do that, you lose 3 generators 40 seconds into the match.
You literally just do whatever you want as survivor, and then if you're on death hook, just play safe/sneaky and do faraway gens or hide. The others will finish the gens and likely all 7-8 of you will get out. Or find a yellow herb and continue being an untouchable threat, whose getting caged is actually a net positive for your team because it makes the gens faster.
People don't realize how devastating those 3 quick gens are. It happens almost every time, no matter what you do. And then when you start caging, they go faster. Killer can't win.
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@ratcoffee said:
I mean it was, that was kind of what led me to lose faith in the concept of 2v8. If people don't want to play 2v8 as survivor with every advantage, there's nothing BHVR can do to bring survivors to the mode, it's just not worth playing for survivors then
They really do have every advantage. Pallets every 2 feet, breakable walls that just waste the killer's time, comeback mechanic gen speed, pallet/flashlight save potential, auras only for people who are fresh hooks, overpowered classes with more gen boost, group sprint burst, old Object, and 50% instaheals, herbs that instantly heal or recover hook states, huge maps, twice the gens but not even twice the completion requirement. What else could they possibly want?
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@Thesevenspirits said:
İn how many of those matches did up to 3 people escape? Or was it just you?
Yea all you have to do i hide I lockers, don't do gens, or run the killers to other teammates, till the hatch opens then you escape. Good job
Hatch is such a healthy mechanic, right? Totally not a detriment to the game.
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@sinkra said:
Based on their stats the escape rate was 45%, which made it much more enjoyable than 1v4 as solo survivor. Then the devs decided to gut survivor classes and add bots which is another massive nerf. Why do the devs want the game to be so easy for killers when survivors are the majority of the playerbase?
2v8 killer is not easy. You can get an 6-8k, but you've really gotta work to get that.
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Probably something like Deja Vu, just to get that gen progress requirement up faster. That's what all these perks are based on. Or have Chemical Trap for a 4th trap.
But I don't recommend a build like this. There's way better perks, although Blast Mine and Wire Tap can be instrumental in you winning, with the slowdown and info they provide respectively.
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@PetTheDoggo said:
In general? It's same as tunneling for me, so no.
I would say it's an issue basically only in extreme case, where you get killers doing it from start of the game.
In which case, the survivors should lose. "At the start" can only mean 4-5 gens are still up. If the same survivor has already been hooked twice, and 4-5 gens are still to go, they're playing beyond terrible and deserve to lose. Same thing with slugging. How do you all 4 get downed in like 60 seconds? Where's your perks? Where's your looping skill? You can't implement a base mechanic to counter what the killer's doing there, because then you're balancing around the literal worst survivors in the game.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3891134#Comment_3891134
pointedly looks at toolbox
Oh, because it's a "tool" box. Funny. So funny.
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@bleep275 said:
UPDATE: I FINALLY did the no hook spine chill challenge. Now its time for the one I fear the most. 4 gens in a single match. Once I do that, every challenge will be done
I don't know what was even the mentality behind that. They basically counted on you getting a match where you have to carry hardcore, and that your team and you actually stay alive long enough for you personally to get 4 done, but not so much that your teammates end up doing gens. It's really a convoluted set of conditions.
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Ace, I guess. Because he's lucky.
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I actually like playing on Midwich. Even though I think it's difficult for killer and for unorganized solos, it's just fun to run. And it's got some map happenings, like the guy falling out of the cage (or locker?) in that locker room above the red room exit gate. And if you do certain gens, the door to the tower outside opens up. Doesn't it have a chest in there as well?
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They don't. They don't take time or effort to improve. I spent like 6 months to a year playing no gen defence chase builds, meaning you had to draw or kill everyone in like 5 minutes tops. And I was doing it. Not all the time (lots of settling for the draw), but considering I was playing garbo killers like Wraith, Doctor, Pig, Clown, Demogorgon, Deathslinger, Nemesis, Xenomorph, Unknown, Vecna, it was impressive. And I've had basically all my survivor playtime to practice running loops without even having to look where I'm going (because my camera is usually on the killer), and learning the check spots and sound manipulation with crouching, and doubling back fake-outs, and all kinds of stuff. Most people in this game don't come close to that, especially survivors, just looking at their takes.
They're just like, "The killer is fast, or has stealth, and can find me, therefore OP." They can't handle simply being found, you understand. Whatever their gen pressure is, which in most cases will be non-existent, they can't handle being found, because it'll be like a 15-second chase tops. That's why, despite Ghost Face, Myers, Freddy, Skull Merchant, etc clearly being bad, because they have like no power, they'll still get 4k'd by them. There's no strategy, is a big part of that. They'll 3-gen themselves for free, they'll throw pallets .5 seconds after being hit (the only way you can "waste" a pallet) and then stay at the loop, they don't use any good perk like DS, Windows, exhaustion perks, healing perks, DH, not even half-decent stuff like Leader or Vigil, and instead opt to use chest search perks, Urban Evasion, Self-Care, Autodidact, Sole Survivor, etc. And I'm not done with them.
Killers aren't innocent either. They'll blame the survivors having Windows for their loss, instead of blaming the loop design. Or they'll just try and Bloodlust every pallet in the map. You can do that, but then you're leaving up loads of pallets that they can keep running to. Or they'll bring hexes, and then complain that they had a wasted perk when it gets cleansed. Everybody knows hexes have been weak for the longest. They're not bringing strong perks either. They'll bring an arbitrary amount of info perks, when even 1 is too much/not worth it a lot of the time, or Spirit Fury/Enduring but still kick pallets after they've already got their 2 Spirit Fury charges, or just spam gen defence not understanding those perks are basically useless now. They'll complain about gen speeds, but refuse to use camping, slugging, or tunneling, out of some misplaced sense of "honor" or "sportsmanship." And a lot of them won't stand against killer nerfs either, is the funny thing. They could see Pig or Skull Merchant get nerfed AGAIN right now, and call it balance. They'll call Doctor, Clown, and Deathslinger "really strong killers" having "oppressive chase power" and stuff like that.
I've gone on plenty of loss streaks in MMR hell, and 90% of those matches had nothing to do with me. I've done my part; now it's time for the other 3 survivors to do theirs. But they never do. They just say, "It must not be my gen efficiency. It must be that perkless Wraith is waaay too strong!" They expect the game to be balanced around them, instead of them improving, because even they can recognize patterns. "I complain about X killer thing, it gets nerfed, I don't have to learn the counterplay anymore." They've had that mindset since forever, since like the Freddy and Spirit nerfs. What's really getting me right now is how people still treat Skull Merchant. They'll either rage quit at the start, or later on, but there's no good reason for it. If you're so scared of 3-gens run Deja Vu. I run it in general, but you don't even need it to counter 3-gens, because the auto- 8-kick limit lets you turn your brain off. All you've got to do is undo the regression event a few times, and then the killer can't physically kick them anymore; you've won. But people who play apparently don't have the patience or game sense for that. They've got a match in the bag, in the absolute bag, and they'll just throw it away for nothing. That's why literally no other game balances around those people.
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There's a lot of interactions that always favor the other side. Like when Victor is literally on top of a slug or a pallet, and the survivor never has a conflict of prompts. They always kick him through all else. But then you go to Pinhead, and the "break chains" interaction is the same as the "vault pallet" interaction with survivor (at least on console), which often leads to free downs for the killer. This feels like trying to heal by a pallet, like why are these still conflicting after all these years? Fix your game.
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They're already good items. They're add-on dependent, and some add-on combos which are allowed are stupid (because they don't do anything, i.e. 2 duration add-ons w/ no effect). But I'm afraid of what might happen if the devs want these items to be on the same level as toolboxes and medkits. Survivors already don't need that's stuff to win, and again, maps and keys are fine, if not a tad niche.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Ive used it before, its comical to see the killer covered in that white dust 😅
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It doesn't hurt the game, as you're implying. In fact, it plays around dumb scenarios when an exit is open but you had to drop a survivor because there's no near hooks. Usually, that survivor would get to crawl out for free. If the base mori is there, you actually get the kill you earned. I guess even that is killer having "too much."
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@Eelanos said:
OTR.
DS is a meme perk anyway. It exists solely to make "build value" videos and make people rage while simultaneously doing absolutely nothing for your escape rate.
How is it a meme perk, like No Mither? How is stunning the killer after a chase a bad perk?
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
It depends.
If the killer is immediately pursuing you off the hook and hits you during base BT, then DS is better because OTR endurance has no additional effect in that case. DS also wastes more of the killer's time than OTR does if you are able to use it successfully. But it has the risk of the killer slugging you long enough for the timer to expire and it only works once, if the killer tunnels you twice it won't work the second time.
If the tunnel is a bit more delayed, or the killer tunnels you after both unhooks, then generally I'd say OTR is better due to its longer duration as well as blocking your aura and giving you 80 seconds of Iron Will without the exhaustion clause + it works after both unhooks, unlike DS which disables itself after attempting the skill check.
I've literally never done this as killer, where I wait at the hook for the unhook and hit straight into base BT. Because that's a bad play. What if they don't have OTR? You just gave them a free sprint burst for no reason. And when I've used it, the killer has never done that to me, because like me when I play killer, I'll wait the 10 seconds and then swing. If they get Endurance after that, we know they have it, and it gets value right there. I do prefer using DS, because I can stun the killer after getting downed, but OTR isn't that much worse of an option.
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@jesterkind said:
It's an interesting thought experiment, but I don't think it's as much of a "final verdict" debate ender as you might hope it would be, unfortunately. There are still three very important variables that aren't being accounted for with this supposedly level playing field - two of which people I think would broadly agree with, and one of which I suspect might be a bit of a hot take of mine.
First, map. There are maps that heavily favour survivor, maps that heavily favour killer, and maps anywhere in between - if this supposedly equalised match takes place on Garden of Joy, that's going to be a very different outcome to if it takes place on Haddonfield, and so on. However, one can assume a generally down-the-middle map for these thought experiments, so that one isn't too big of a deal.
Second, killer. This one's a lot harder to average out- a perkless, addonless Trapper is going to struggle substantially more than a perkless, addonless Nurse. There's just no getting around the fact that the game doesn't and can't favour a role wholeheartedly when the killer role has such a huge variance in strength.
Third and finally… well, how's the killer playing? If it's a no holds barred, anything goes kind of match, then the killer has a significant advantage in that they have access to tunnelling, excessive slugging, and to a much smaller degree camping, but survivors don't have access to the meaningful tools to counter it. It's tempting to say therefore that killer is the stronger role, but… is it? Or are those specific strategies unbalanced?
If the killer weren't leveraging unbalanced shortcuts, it'd be a more "honest" game, so to speak, and the outcome could easily be very different. It's a meaningful distinction that should be made here, when talking about the overall state of balance.
As an aside, your post makes multiple mentions of injuries leaving survivors vulnerable indefinitely without medkits or perks, but… survivors can heal each other? That's a pretty major core part of the game. You also make reference to chases being exclusively skill based without perks to alter them in one point, but then say chases favour the killer and survivors will go down quickly in another point, which seems contradictory to me. Surely both can't be true at once?
There are no killer sided maps, except for how Hag performs on Midwich, the Knight on The Game, or Ghost Face on Lery's. But those are niche killers with, what, 1 favorable map? A "killer sided map" would be one where all killers perform well on it, every time.
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@CrypticGirl said:
Well, we've already experimented with perkless matches via the Lights Out mode. That should tell you a good bit on how much Survivors or Killers win their games.
Except survivors can see in the normal mode. 🤦♀️ Not a good comparison.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3891218#Comment_3891218
Hens even as soloQ managed 65,5% escape rate (50 games), which is very good imo.Minor correction: that was the escape rate for all of the survivors over those games.
More importantly, he excluded some games that got mentioned a little during the Youtube video. I don't know the specifics because I don't think the raw footage exists so I don't know how frequently it occurred.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3891238#Comment_3891238
He couldn't have. It's not THAT hard for a good SWF to winThis really reads as 'despite the overwhelming evidence of almost 2000 games, I just don't want to believe it'.
Even if you somehow exclude him, there are plenty of streamers who've gone on long kill streaks. How are they magically missing all of the SWFs that everyone else seems to be hitting?
There is no overwhelming evidence. The "plenty" of streamers you're referring to can be counted on 1 hand, maybe 2 or 3. And they're very secretive about their exclusive anti-cheater queue and other benefits. Maybe the rest of us are dealing with subtle cheaters all the time, who knows? But if killer was just that easy, everyone would be doing 100+ win streaks and never complain. Maybe it's a mindset we're missing. Maybe if we just "believe" in getting this super impressive streak, and have an accompanying gameplay mentality, we'll magically get it. But with how the math of the game is, nothing tangible really supports that.