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crogers271

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  • Some windows are supposed to be strong. As killer you have to make a decision based off who you are playing / what perks you have whether it is worth the time to chase to a strong structure.

    Going from 3 to 2 would also make perks like Bamboozle and other perks that are meant to counter stronger windows next to useless.

    in Can they nerf the fact that survivors can vault the same window 3 times Comment by crogers271

  • @Iron_Cutlass said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3894311#Comment_3894311

    Im pretty sure they dont allude to what you think they do, solely from the fact that they are an alien species and their reproductive cycle is based on various kinds of insects and parasites that do exist in the real world. In fact, the carapace design of the Xenomorph is quite literally based on the carapace of bugs, just a bit more oriental.

    I think the only issue with this is that it would take a lot of time and resources to implement, as well as to upkeep it as bugs/glitches are introduced, and I dont think BHVR is going to do that. On top of that, it's also hard to have hooks respawn if a Survivor is dead on it… I think it would have to go away after awhile.

    This being said, I do actually hope BHVR implements more stuff like this, since I think they make DBD feel more alive and they make each Killer have their own unique identity. And atm, I think DBD needs more of that, since it feels like they tried to do it in some areas but then gave up in other areas.

    I believe the creators of the film have been pretty clear that @arcaneGospel 's take is what they were going for.

    @Spirit_IsTheBest said:

    NOT MY IDEA, credit goes to RogueSFM on twitter.

    https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/RL4S2UID24YL/image.png

    I feel like Xenomorph had so much potential, he feels horrible to play and the newer changers aren’t the best, Facehuggers would be such an amazing feature, even if it is only a minor additional for hook states like in the photo above.

    This seems like a lot of work for something that would be a minor addition and basically be avoided after the first few matches.

    in Wouldn’t it be cool if the Xenomorph had facehuggers? Comment by crogers271

  • @Thusly_Boned said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3894252#Comment_3894252

    It's not even that people saying that aren't actually winning. It's that a lot of the people who say "oh, and I do play both sides" do play some killer, but haven't played nearly enough to even hit the soft cap. Low level killer is really, really easy. Especially if you're an experienced surv player who comes in with that developed game sense.

    But having a couple hundred hours in killer tells you nothing about what it's like at a thousand hours plus. Just about anyone who has climbed the ranks as killer will tell you there is a jarring difficulty spike. In the cases of people who say they 4K 90%+ of their matches, one of these things is almost certainly the case:

    1. They're lying (or at least heavily embellishing)
    2. They're extrapolating from a tiny sample size
    3. They haven't played enough killer to start playing actual competition with any consistency
    4. They've got thousands of hours in killer, probably main an S or A tier killer, and sweat their asses off

    But again, this topic isn't really about the winning or losing, but how the nature of the two roles contribute to anxiety. Because the killer is the one in the 1v4, the player simply has to actively manage much more than a surv player. You can get totally frazzled while winning and be totally unfazed while losing.

    Even though I was winning more often than not, I experienced more stress in hours 500-750 (when I first hit that aforementioned difficulty spike) as a killer than in my 3K+ total hours as a solo queue surv combined.

    1. You have to manage many more variables; you have to play the meta game, managing four survss, 16 perks, etc. As a surv, it's a series of 1v1 interactions broken up by long stretches of downtime. Killer is all go, all the time.
    2. As the killer, you should win. At least that's the conventional wisdom. And with expectation comes pressure.
    3. As a killer, you are almost solely responsible for the outcome of the match (well, and RNG). As surv, responsibility is diffused over the whole team. And if you lose, you often have someone else to blame (whether they actually are or not).
    4. Many killers, including myself, play mostly B/C tier killers and have to fight for their lives to win. Not every killer is a 10K hour Blight/Nurse main just cruising to 4Ks.
    5. Survs are more likely to let you hear it after match. I mean statistically, since it's 4v1.

    I like the list you put together. Here's my IMO on why I kind of have the opposite reaction.

    1: I never found the variables that tricky to manage, in fact I was kind of surprised at the elements of killer strategy that weren't evident to people when I started. That said, I find it much more stressful to make occasionally, but extremely impactful decisions.

    Which gen do I go for? Am I running into the killer? Am I going for the save or someone else? Should I use this god pallet or save it?

    And all of those decisions are made with limited info on what the other survivors are doing. Trying to piece that together and make the right call carries a lot of stress

    2: Expectation doesn't bring pressure, just kind of a 'meh' feeling. Because winning feels underwhelming, losing just doesn't matter that much. I don't really care when I win because I'm expected to, so I don't really care if I lose.

    3: This is the one which I probably have the biggest change of feeling on.

    If I'm in a 1v1 activity and I make a mistake, no big deal. I'm relaxed, having fun, trying to win, but if I screw something up I tell myself to do better next time and move on. I want to win, don't get me wrong, but definitely can handle my mistakes.

    If I'm in a team and I contribute to us losing, I'm devastated. If I don't give my absolute best for the team it's awful. If I mess up a chase, don't spot a killer, misread what another survivor is doing, and I have let other people down, well that's the worst feeling. A single mistake as survivor feels like not only do I lose for myself, much worse than that I cause others to lose.

    Sidenote: I'm in my 40s, this is the exact opposite to how I would have felt thirty years ago when team activities where nice and relaxing and individual sports felt like do or die.

    4: I played a bunch of perkless Sadako for a while. It felt like giving the other team a 10 point handicap or an extra player. So when I lost, it didn't really matter. This is kind of the opposite of point two, I gave you guys the handicap, so the fact that you won is what was supposed to happen.

    5: I can see that, though chat doesn't bother me much and I'll just turn it off if it does.

    -

    One thing that I'll add, as killer I always feel like I have something that I can play for. Even matches where things are going against me, I can still play for a 1k. It feels like I got something at the end. Even games where I get like 8 hooks spread out I can still feel like I played a really good, fair game.

    As a survivor, there doesn't seem to be any feeling of 'well, at least we completed 4 gens instead of 3'. I want to escape and I want the other survivors to escape, and there's no 'at least we got to X' point, its all or nothing.

    in How many of you agree that this exist and experience it: Killer Anxiety. Comment by crogers271

  • @Dadeordye said:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cD2I1PDXAJA&t=961s

    From 17:38 to 17:58 this guy says something that I've never realized before to be an actual thing: Killer anxiety.
    There's so much BS killers have to endure from the survs every match…
    For myself I can say that I do get this EVERYTIME, but 90% of these times I still go through and play killer. The other 10% I can't go through mostly because I had a crappy day at work and I know playing killer will make this much worse.

    This is one of my favorite topics and comes up quite a bit.

    Backstory: When I started playing the game I watched a few streamers (none of the big ones) and played an equal number of games on both sides before posting on the forums. I knew that people argued over the game, but I also was of the mindset - 'okay, balance is a debate, but its obvious that killer is the role people go to chill out in and survivor when you want to have a heart attack.'

    I was quite shocked that a lot people had the exact opposite take.

    If Killer role was all that existed I would have maybe played the game for a week or two and moved on. It's fine. If I win, okay, if a lose, also okay. Neither really feels impactful (its not a bad game, but not worth putting thousands of hours in). Sometimes I get into the killer role, but no more, and probably less, than I would any other multiplayer game. But escaping as a survivor, getting the others out, feels great, and losing a close game at the end feels devastating in ways no other games have been able to match for me.

    in How many of you agree that this exist and experience it: Killer Anxiety. Comment by crogers271

  • Even though he is one of the weaker killers, still get nervous running through grass against a Trapper. Had a match where I hadn't spotted the killer yet and ran into a trap in the grass and that was one of the first jumpscares I had in a while.

    I do feel quite a bit of nerves loading in the match until I see the killer and feel quite a bit of relief when they are a stealth killer. Hillbilly might demolish us, but less stressful to go against.

    in About 6,000 hours and this game still scares me Comment by crogers271

  • @LordGlint said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3893943#Comment_3893943

    When comparing streaks like this, it's important to remember that it's also just easier to schedule playing killer alone vs getting 3 other ppl together. Its very likely the ppl doing the killer streaks were also just playing more games in general than the ppl trying to get the same 4 man team together. Anyone who's ever tried to schedule a game of dungeons and dragons knows the struggle of getting a party to show up, lol.

    I think this is true, but just reinforces the point @AmpersandUnderscore is making.

    An elite 4 person SWF, that being 4 players who are all great at the game, have played together, and practiced clock call outs, are extremely rare. They are a subset of an already small group of players (general 4 person SWFs).

    Because they are so incredibly rare it seems really strange to use them as the balance metric. One of the things that makes the killer role "easier" is the fact that you don't have to coordinate with a group to maximize your ability in the game.

    in Game is WAY KILLER SIDED Comment by crogers271

  • @Brutha said:

    Killers should be able to surrender during endgame collapse, a lot of killers don't wanna bother trying during endgame collapse if they've had a bad game, there's also the fact of "Watch me leave" survivors sitting there and making the game last longer than it needs, obviously you can just force those ones out but sometimes a survivor will go hide just so they can let the timer almost run out and then leave so the killer can't find them and make the game drag. This could also fix issues with exploiters holding the game hostage by not letting the endgame collapse kill them.

    And let's be honest both things currently planned to let the killer surrender for are very unlikely to happen so this would make the option even exist to killers.

    Make this 30 seconds after exit gates open and I agree. Survivors should still be able to get the escape.

    @LordGlint said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3893727#Comment_3893727

    Preferably when surrender option is used in general, it just results in bots. It would ALSO suck if the game ended right before a killer could finish a mori challenge or something.

    I feel like this is what should obviously be happening and after the last patch announcement I really expected a BHVR announcement that said 'oh, surrender results in bots just taking the place'.

    I hope that ends up being the situation for most of their scenarios.

    in Another thing that should let killers use the Surrender option Comment by crogers271

  • @I_Cant_Loop said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3893847#Comment_3893847

    win streaks by the top killer players in the world prove nothing about game balance for the vast majority of the player base. Let’s think this through here: top killer player in the world is going to be playing against far inferior opponents most of the time because there isn’t going to be a constant stream of comp SWF teams lined up to play against them. So as top killer is going through his win streak, most of his matches are going to be like a 99% chance to win because of the huge gap in player skill between killer side and survivor side. He’s only going to encounter full teams of similarly skilled players every so often, and even in these matches he will have an advantage because the devs have already stated many times that the game is slightly killer sided by design.

    None of this means anything for a vast majority of players. If you are winning too much as killer, you will progressively get matched against better and better survivor teams. I’ve experienced this myself by playing killer - it’s easy at the start and then you hit a wall where it becomes difficult to win consistently.

    look at the overall win rate for killers for the entire game population. That’s what really matters for telling us something about game balance. I’m sure I’ve said this to you before, but if you are so convinced that the game is overwhelmingly killer sided, try actually playing killer yourself. Not just a few matches, but actually put some hours into it. You’ll eventually see that it’s not nearly as easy as you think it is.

    win streaks by the top killer players in the world prove nothing about game balance for the vast majority of the player base. Let’s think this through here:

    Except what are we talking about then? When people say killer is too easy, the response is just 'well that's low and mid MMR, yes its killer sided', but when people point out the killer streamers with massive win rates the answer is 'they don't count'.

    So as top killer is going through his win streak, most of his matches are going to be like a 99% chance to win because of the huge gap in player skill between killer side and survivor side.

    If we're presuming that 99 out of 100 matches he wins by default, with only one match being competitive, that means he had to win 19 competitive matches in a row. If each of those matches was a 50/50 the chance of pulling that off is 0.02%, and that is presuming a 0% chance of losing any of the other matches.

    If we're presuming every single match he had a 1% chance of losing, getting 1900 wins in a row would be extremely small, I think that's 0.0000001723%.

    That's why people bring up win streaks. You wouldn't just need to be the best player in the game, you would need to be so much better than your opponents that very few matches are even competitive. It makes the idea that high MMR is filled with sweat squads seem silly.

    If you are winning too much as killer, you will progressively get matched against better and better survivor teams. I’ve experienced this myself by playing killer - it’s easy at the start and then you hit a wall where it becomes difficult to win consistently.

    Sure, that should be true.

    Except difficult to win consistently should be the norm. If you being matched with players of the same skill as you, even something like a 5 game winning streak should be rare (3.125% chance being we're talking odds). A ten game win streak should be a cause for celebration (~0.1% chance).

    in Game is WAY KILLER SIDED Comment by crogers271

  • @Crowman said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3893322#Comment_3893322

    If the killer got less powerful the more they completed their objective, you would just create a situation where killers are forced to incapacitate survivors without killing them aka slugging. Which being forced to slug as a killer isn't fun and killers always slugging isn't fun for survivors either.

    As I said, I wish the game was designed around the idea. We'd be talking about a very different game design if that was true. I also said it would be hard to put something like that in the game now.

    in Grim embrace Comment by crogers271

  • @Defnotmeghead said:

    Why does this perk still activate after a survivor has died? Isnt it just much healthier to deactivate the perk once someone is dead?

    I dont even mind it being buffed a bit if it means people who tunnel someone out dont exponentially benefit from the effects compared to those who dont tunnel

    Conceptually I wish the game was designed more around this being the game design. That as survivors are killed the killer gets weaker, balancing out the game a bit more.

    That said, its hard to do that at the moment. Especially if Grim Embrace was buffed, it would create scenarios were the last survivor who hasn't been hooked should absolutely just hide from the killer, which is the reverse of what you want from the game where the unhooked survivor should be pursuing chase.

    in Grim embrace Comment by crogers271

  • I tend to watch Naymeti's vids on youtube. He usually puts one out a day playing survivor.

    Its Hardcore Challenge though among 4 of your big ten. It's my version of the Superbowl of DbD.

    in Do you have any favorite up-and-coming streamers? Comment by crogers271

  • @I_Cant_Loop said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3893010#Comment_3893010

    do you have a link to any good forum posts that discuss this? I’ve never looked into it in detail

    There's a lot of incorrect math that kind of goes along with this.

    The current issue seems to be presuming that the 40% survival rate means each survivor having an equal chance in each match. I think this was the first thread that really went on that.

    Other variations are things like believing the game results occur in a bell curve or that all game results are equally distributed.

    The problem with the math assumptions is that they don't reflect reality. We would need more data to know for sure, but last time I did a dive on the Nightlight stats a 60% kill rate led to a win rate between 52% and 55%, but its really dependent on killer.

    @LikeALittleEvil said:

    Ok, so askip we can't talk about things on this topic, but i'm not gonna let you stop me from speaking. You just banned two of people who supported my opinion about my thinking of this game being more and more killer sided for a supposed discussion that not had to be. All of the discussion can be, with respect. You created forum, and let us create new discussion so we can talk with other people, but you can't banned people for beeing supporter of a thinking, because it's not forbidden. So let me tel you one thing. You can ban me, i don't care about what you're going to do for me. I just want to say that yes, you have a preference. Yes, you are actually killer sided and all of your updates from years ago boost and buff killers after killers, and survivors get their perk nerfed, perk after perk. You are creating a significant equity difference that lead to both side toxicity growing. Do what you want with my words, or continue you're killer in the path of killer's growing strength, and create more and more unblance.

    Your reaction to my supporters clearly shows on which side you are.

    You can criticize BHVR. You can call the game killer sided. I do pretty frequently. Keep it polite and constructive.

    in "We did a pretty good job so far" - Revived #2 Comment by crogers271

  • I really feel like it goes against the concept of the game and what it means to be a survivor. A big part of the challenge is the range of killers you might have to face. Even taking a few out of that really changes the dynamics.

    Additional issues:

    You potentially run into issues with SWFs that might effectively ban all the hardest killers. If each player could ban 1 to 3, you are looking at 4 to 12 killers banned.

    Accessibility is probably the best reason with killers that make certain players physically uncomfortable. I don't know how you address that though without it just being abused.

    in At some point, would allowing players to select a killer they don’t ever want to face be reasonable? Comment by crogers271

  • @Iron_Cutlass said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3892828#Comment_3892828

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3892826#Comment_3892826

    Duality of Man.

    In all seriousness, I really don’t know if DBD is competitive or not since the way it is structured it very “middle of the road”.

    Like for example, we have MMR, which is used in competitive games for matchmaking to try and create a fair and competitive environment, but the way it is implemented seems to prioritize speed over quality, so having MMR really does not do much.

    They constantly make balance changes that feel designed for competitive but then sometimes release perks or change perks to feel more outrageously designed for the sake of “oh, but don’t worry, we are still a party game”.

    And here is the thing, DBD started as a party game, it was meant to be “le spooky horror game” from the start. But the way they are changing the game feels like the equivalent of the “class clown” trying their best to be taken seriously while still persisting to crack jokes along the way. Some will take them seriously. Some people wont. But they are just stuck in their own personal limbo.

    My response, DBD is neither a party game nor a competitive game. DBD just is.

    My take on this, which is a personal take but I think might be reflective of the casual vs competitive argument.

    I want DbD to be like a pick up style game. For example if I'm at the gym playing basketball (or when my knees could actually do something like that), we're just pairing up teams and jumping right into the game. And in the game I want to try, and everyone else to try. But I don't want to have to assemble a team and practice drills and call outs to be able to play the game.

    That's what I think of as a casual game. Everyone is competitive in the sense of trying to win, but don't have rankings or records or organized teams that match against each other.

    And that's where I want DbD as a game. During game everyone competes, but I don't want anyone to be in the position that they have to go and practice the game to actually be able to play the game. MMR should hopefully clean up those who either via lots of experience or practice match with each other, though that gets difficult to the needing 4 on one side vs 1 on the other. And for those who want organized matches, wonderful, not a problem at all, but its a separate thing.

    in Survivor Frustration Comment by crogers271

  • @Prometheus1092 said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3892735#Comment_3892735

    I agree killer should be able to move on if they want. But many killers including myself will never surrender to a couple of survivors that refuse to touch a gen when there are 2 or 3 gens left. In my eyes as a killer I have won that match and I'm taking the win, no chance I'm surrendering. I'm sure many killers will feel the same.

    Well that's what I mean. It shouldn't called a surrender. Killers can still stay around if they want, but whether they do or not, the end condition should be a win. Giving it a different term than surrender I think would make that a lot clearer.

    in March 2025 Dev Update Comment by crogers271

  • @Prometheus1092 said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3892706#Comment_3892706

    It is just the start, there will be anti hiding changes later to help prevent survivors hiding for long periods of time avoiding the gens.

    I would like to point out, if survivors think they can hide for 10min to try make me surrender they best make themselves comfortable because I wont be surrendering, not in 10min, not in 20min, not ever lol.

    I think in this scenario 'surrender' should be called end game. The goal is that the killer should be able to move on without any penalty.

    in March 2025 Dev Update Comment by crogers271

  • Excellent changes and updates. Kind of surprised more things weren't walked back on Chucky, but I guess we'll see how much the reduced time to reach max scamper is.

    Also expect / hope the surrender option can be increased to a few other areas to speed up the boring end games.

    in March 2025 Dev Update Comment by crogers271

  • @Goblin_BHVR said:

    We're stoked to hear that you're looking forward to these changes, and we're excited to see what kind of feedback the PTB will bring 💚

    I had been convinced Knock Out was going to get changed this patch, but am still so incredibly gratified to actually see it happen.

    in Knock Out Rework!! Comment by crogers271

  • @joeyspeehole said:

    Is dropping someone ten meters away from the hatch or the exit gate with the intention of moriing them before they make it to the exit the same as or worse than survivors tea-bagging at the exit gate? As a survivor, I know you're going to mori me, so why waste my time?

    Worse, just based on the amount of time it takes.

    Though if I get dropped away from the hatch I don't even bother. Which is also how I treat survivors waiting at the exit gate (though at least as killer I can find doors to break).

    in Is Dropping Survivors Near the Hatch the Ultimate Endgame Taunt? Comment by crogers271

  • @Thesevenspirits said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885592#Comment_3885592

    A stealth approach to navigate RPD will be nice but you know, there are too many Aura reading killers in the game even in 2v8 for that to work successfully

    Wasn't expecting this thread to come back.

    Aura reading doesn't really apply early game, even in 2v8 gens don't finish that fast. I actually played a bunch of games where I would move to the far end of the second floor balcony, wait for the killers to pass into the other wing, then drop down and move across. If I get spotted its not a horrible thing either because I can lead them outside.

    One funny game from RPD - I was stealthing in the middle off the start, the second killer passed through, and as I popped my head out three other survivors did so at the exact same time and we all sprinted across. It looked like the strategy of what needed to be done caught on.

    in I'm Starting To Wonder if 2v8 is Actually Survivor Sided Comment by crogers271

  • @supersonic853 said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3892047#Comment_3892047

    So overwatch had a mode seperate from the main gamemode called experimental. It basically had all the balance changes they wanted to test on it. So people could go try the balance changes on all platforms and give feedback. If the feedback is good. It gets pushed to the main gamemode. Dbd has modifiers kinda similar to that with their own balance. So why not try balance updates with a modifier then push it to main? So we don't need to do all this ptb balance stuff that basically kicks console to the curb? Obviously some stuff would still have to be ptb like new full characters but I think a balance patch would be fine.

    So my understanding of the PTB with coding and dealing with multiple consoles is that its just easier on Steam because of built in support. They can work on the PTB relatively close to the release date, while things that go out to all the systems need to get finished a while before they get released so that the various companies can run them through quality assurance.

    Thus I think it might take more development time than the current format. How much? I have no way to know, but I don't think it would be worth it.

    I feel like it would also potentially crowd their schedule. Between events, modifiers (of which I hope we get more variations of), and PTBs for new chapters/characters, might be hard to squeeze in a modifier for testing things out.

    Conceptually, I don't have really any problem with the idea, it falls into the 'not thrilled, could be neat' category, but without knowing how many dev resources it would eat can't really say if it would be worth the time investment.

    in Dbd experimental? Comment by crogers271

  • @supersonic853 said:

    Damn this died lol. Busy day though so makes sense.

    To be honest, I had a reply typed up, but then I wasn't exactly sure what you were talking about as I'm not familiar with the Overwatch example and I realized my reply might be misconstruing what you were saying.

    What exactly are you envisoning?

    in Dbd experimental? Comment by crogers271

  • The bottom killers are close enough that they can shuffle around pretty easily. He's not that far off from some of the others.

    in Darn xenomorph is in the top 5 least played on nightlight Comment by crogers271

  • Like a number of perks (Deliverance, Wicked) first there should be more of an indication that someone is running it. A different color or aura or something that tells other survivors 'just come run over by me and things will be fine'

    This perk is so rare I forgot it only activated on the struggle phase. Having it activate on both seems like it should be the case.

    in Should Camaraderie get a buff? Comment by crogers271

  • My general relationship with DbD has been play DbD, take a break play something else, play DbD, take a break play something else, etc. I'm sure one of those times I take I break I just won't come back, but it hasn't happened yet. Even during breaks though I continue to consume DbD content; watch streamers and comp.

    I really enjoyed 2v8 and put in a lot of hours. I'll now play some of the other games that are sitting in my stream library for a little bit.

    in Campfire Check In Comment by crogers271

  • When they did the Medkit overall a while back and took the different rarity levels and made them much closer together in power, I thought that was going to be a trend for all items. The Iri version of maps and keys blow away the other options. My guess is that they will make these versions closer together in power.

    Probably also look at some of the addons.

    I'd like it to be more than that, I'm also in the camp that these should just be one item, but I doubt it will be anything groundbreaking.

    in What are your ideas for the map & key item rebalancing coming in phase 2? Comment by crogers271

  • @Ragnar_Drifter said:

    Hello!

    I'm a main Killer in DBD, and I'd like to know if there are any official "data" provided by BHVR that show the number of Survivors/Killers playing at any given moment for the following reason:

    As we all know, most people play Survivor—"or so they say." If I search for a match and leave the lobby three times in a row, the average wait time to find a game as a Survivor is between 9 to 17 seconds. On the other hand, as a Killer, the average wait time is between 5 to 8 minutes...

    Are there really that many Killers playing DBD?

    I find this unfair for many reasons. As a Survivor, if you finish a match, in just 15 seconds you're already preparing for the next game, and within a maximum of 2 minutes, you're repairing generators again.

    On the other hand, as a Killer, I sometimes find myself "waiting longer to find a match" than "it takes me to kill all the Survivors." It's starting to feel like a Lobby Simulator...

    When I watch streams on Twitch, 90% of them are Survivors, which is the most common, and only a few play as Killers.

    When I check SteamCharts, which only shows Steam data, I saw that there were 22,000 people playing DBD worldwide. Given my time zone, I imagine that in Europe there were approximately 4,000 players on Steam, not counting consoles—Xbox, PlayStation, etc.

    Why does it take so long to find a match? I’d like to verify official data if possible.

    BHVR occasionally releases data, and sometimes gives general indication of things during chats, but is there some broad, up to the moment, dataset that you can look at other than Steam? No. Right now I show 34.5k players.

    They have said in the past that the amount of players on console exceeds that of PC, which I imagine also includes Epic games.

    However, the question is not how many people are playing DbD, but the distribution of the roles. For every 1 killer, there needs to be 4 survivors. You could have a billion players, but the greater those proportions get out of whack, the longer the queue times are going to be. Most people need to play survivor for the game to function.

    Killer queues are currently so long because of 2v8. It both pulls survivors from 1v4 into 2v8 and pulls a lot of players from survivor into killer.

    in Do we have official DBD data? Comment by crogers271

  • @danielmaster87 said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3891243#Comment_3891243

    There is no overwhelming evidence. The "plenty" of streamers you're referring to can be counted on 1 hand, maybe 2 or 3. And they're very secretive about their exclusive anti-cheater queue and other benefits. Maybe the rest of us are dealing with subtle cheaters all the time, who knows? But if killer was just that easy, everyone would be doing 100+ win streaks and never complain. Maybe it's a mindset we're missing. Maybe if we just "believe" in getting this super impressive streak, and have an accompanying gameplay mentality, we'll magically get it. But with how the math of the game is, nothing tangible really supports that.

    There is no overwhelming evidence. The "plenty" of streamers you're referring to can be counted on 1 hand, maybe 2 or 3. And they're very secretive about their exclusive anti-cheater queue and other benefits.

    We're just in conspiracy territory. The streamers just get easier survivors? This despite the fact that SWFs stream sniped the blight streak during it trying to take it down (and that's eventually what ended it).

    And if we make the streak 1000s we only are talking about a handful, which is true just based off time they have, but lots more than that do 50 game win streaks.

    Maybe if we just "believe" in getting this super impressive streak, and have an accompanying gameplay mentality, we'll magically get it.

    Or maybe some killer mains haven't quite mastered the game as well as they think they have. I have no claims to being a perfect killer player, far from it, but streamers don't seem to be hitting the level or frequency of SWFs that killers on this forum claim to exist.

    But with how the math of the game is, nothing tangible really supports that.

    It doesn’t matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn’t matter how smart you are. If it doesn’t agree with experiment, it’s wrong.

    ~Richard Feyman

    You claimed it couldn't have happened because your concept of how a DbD game should go means it is impossible. Except it did happen, so your postulating that somehow BHVR throws them easier survivor groups. When data contradicts a theory a more rational explanation is that the theory is wrong.

    in Final debate between stronger side killer vs survivor Comment by crogers271

  • @Thusly_Boned said:

    Has anyone seen this? I haven't, or even close. Even in games where the killers were quite good (and coordinated), and the survs were a hot mess, I've not seen an 8K with any more than 5 gens left up.

    I've seen a few games with 8ks at 6+ gens. It's more of an expression of hitting two really coordinated/skilled killers than the survivors. It also involves a bit of luck in getting the survivors boxed in early on.

    But with the way the catch up mechanic works, it is very rare.

    in 8k at 8 gens? Comment by crogers271

  • @Dadeordye said:

    I get it people crouching my Tentacle Strikes behind certain structures, but look at this crap!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bz8XkQ_twng

    We were already losing and my friend was gonna use me as a wall to get this Feng and then this happens.
    She crouched and avoided the hit.

    This seems more like a 2v8 bug with multiple things happening at the same time than a crouch issue.

    in Crouch Tech is being fixed this year, right? Comment by crogers271

  • @PetTheDoggo said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3891214#Comment_3891214

    The truth of the matter is that survivor streamers rarely escape.

    Hens even as soloQ managed 65,5% escape rate (50 games), which is very good imo.

    Also you clearly like to mix comp players and just streamers, so right we have Zaka and Knighlight going for SWF escape streak and so far they are at 70. I don't know if they played since then to increase it.

    We had several attempts in past, many went over 100 and most I know about was something over 500, but maybe there is better.

    Funny is you can usually see with survivors win streak, they actually limit themselves. They are not going for best possible builds and use comp rules instead. I want to see win streak with builds on level when they went for fastest escape, good luck dealing with that… It would be very boring tho.

    Hens even as soloQ managed 65,5% escape rate (50 games), which is very good imo.

    Minor correction: that was the escape rate for all of the survivors over those games.

    More importantly, he excluded some games that got mentioned a little during the Youtube video. I don't know the specifics because I don't think the raw footage exists so I don't know how frequently it occurred.

    @danielmaster87 said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3891190#Comment_3891190

    He couldn't have. It's not THAT hard for a good SWF to win. One decent team, and your streak is gone. No killer is able to down fast enough to stop the runaway gens, unless it's like a god-level Nurse/Spirit/Blight, in which case that hardly proves killer in general is like really strong, because those killers are the cream of the crop; no other killers come close to their power. And you can't justify all killers staying as weak as they are now because 3 of them perform well.

    I actually played against a god Spirit recently, who was like 90% accurate on her phase hits, and I didn't play well at all. She was tunneling/slugging me, and I managed to dodge like 2 phase hits total. The 1 chance I had to breath, I ran off to a corner to self-heal, and then hid and did far-off gens the rest of the match. In general, in part because of me, we really didn't play that well as a team. But that was against a literal god Spirit, when we had no comms, and I martyred so that 2-3 escaped. That's the highest a killer of that level can get, against a random good solo team: a draw or loss (I can't remember exactly the result). And it was on a farm map, which everyone says apparently has 0 pallets.

    He couldn't have. It's not THAT hard for a good SWF to win

    This really reads as 'despite the overwhelming evidence of almost 2000 games, I just don't want to believe it'.

    Even if you somehow exclude him, there are plenty of streamers who've gone on long kill streaks. How are they magically missing all of the SWFs that everyone else seems to be hitting?

    in Final debate between stronger side killer vs survivor Comment by crogers271

  • @angel_pellegrino said:

    Back when I heard that Clive Barker had regained the rights to Pinhead, I wondered how that would work with Pinhead being in DBD. Yes, I'm aware of the other thing that went on with Pinhead, but I think the development with Barkers rights is probably the more pressing of the two things. After all, it's his sandbox and he gets to decide who plays in it. I do respect that, though the idea of having the character pulled does make me a bit sad as he's the main reason I first started playing DBD.

    I understand that Pinhead has his haters in the fandom. And I don't dispute why, especially as his kit with the box cand chains can be particularly challenging for newer and casual players especially. But given how rarely I've ever encountered him as a survivor, I've never had any huge issues with running into "annoying Pinheads." And I love playing him and vs him anyway.

    On the other hand, the situation with Barker could also be a positive. He does have a history of great collaborations and does have a history with video games. So any new agreements could bring even more great stuff to the character. As it stands, I think it's a potential Schrodinger's Pinhead situation. I am sorta hopeful.

    After all, it's his sandbox and he gets to decide who plays in it.

    License agreements that were signed previously are still valid. Based on the Stranger Things example, I suspect the way BHVR signs licenses is that content which has already been sold can never be taken away, even if the ability to sell the licensed asset is removed.

    It's like Marvel and Disney. Disney owns Marvel, but all of the licenses that Marvel signed pre Disney purchase still apply, which is Disney has to negotiate with them for any Spiderman appearance in movies, even though in every other instance Disney owns the character.

    in The Schrodinger's Pinhead situation Comment by crogers271

  • Difference between a perk that favors killer and ones that are weak. Some of those perks are really strong and you're just arguing they aren't as strong as people think.

    No Mither is the only one that actively helps the killer. Even perks like Saboteur, that survivors do frequently misuse, that's not the perk itself, it's how the survivors use it.

    in Survivor perks that favor killers more than survivors. Comment by crogers271

  • @dbd900bach said:

    Slugging is the act of purposely leaving survivors on the ground after downing them. It is generally frowned upon by the community obviously yet is still seen as a valid tactic within the game that can turn the tide of a match.

    Camping, tunneling and slugging are all tactics killers can opt to use, but many players take issue when the tactic is used for more toxic purposes, or they repeatedly encounter one or all in multiple matches. Yet, as of late, a lot of players keep talking about a slugging meta and claim that slugging far more prominent than before. Is that really the case though?

    My thought process on the subject is players general habit of hyperfixation, something unintentional but does happen due to the stigma around these tactics. Players tend to fixate on other players are doing something wrong or something they don't like. Players remember these instances more than positive ones, especially if they lose. It doesn't even have to happen all that much for it to stick either.

    Skill and mmr also play a huge factor as less skilled killers tend to rely on the easiest solution to make up for a lack of skill such as camping because they don't know how to spread pressure. It is a necessary action or the player feels like they will lose. More skilled players rely less on these tactics in general because they aren't necessary and when they are necessary, it's for a good reason. Survivors tend to fixate on the action, but neglect to ask why it happened sometimes. It's easy to jump to the conclusion that the killer lacks the skill, or they did it on purpose to be toxic because it lessens the impact of losing and removes blame from the player. Yet when it's necessary, a situation where the killer would otherwise be intentionally losing if they did not slug, camp or tunnel, it still gets lumped into the other two conclusions.

    In conclusion, people don't like slugging and tend to hold onto the more extreme situations which often can give the implication that it happens more often then it actually does. Whether or not this gibberish means anything is up to whoever actually read all this.

    Players tend to fixate on other players are doing something wrong or something they don't like.

    Complaining about something because a player doesn't like it is perfectly valid. When I think about the worst games of DbD I've had, the ones that made me want to immediately uninstall the game, slugging is basically in all of them. Even if a problem is rare, if the problem is extreme in those rare instances, its still a pretty big issue.

    Now whether an unfun element can be corrected without impacting the fun elements is a trickier question.

    in Is slugging an actual issue? Comment by crogers271

  • @CautionaryMary said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3891190#Comment_3891190

    I never defended the killer's winstreak for having thousands of wins, you are putting words into my mouth.

    The question was who would win in a straight neck-and-neck position, I mention how I believe survivor would win if they're a highly coordinated SWF depending on many variables and factors.

    As I said in my previous response, it's not as black and white as many things.

    Would a highly coordinated SWF beat a basekit Blight? Probably not. How about Nurse? Dracula? Or any other S-tier killer, still no.

    But against let's say anything even A tier and under potentially the survivor side will edge out over the killer side.

    I am quite aware of the killer winstreaks being in the thousands versus the measly hundreds for survivor - however, that does not change my opinion that a basekit killer with no built in slowdown would struggle against any highly coordinated SWF, especially if they utilize clock callouts.

    Would a highly coordinated SWF beat a basekit Blight? Probably not. How about Nurse? Dracula? Or any other S-tier killer, still no.

    But against let's say anything even A tier and under potentially the survivor side will edge out over the killer side.

    But you're comparing unalike things. You are taking the strongest possible setup that survivors could have under these parameters, 4 person SWF with clock call outs, and comparing it to weaker killers.

    in Final debate between stronger side killer vs survivor Comment by crogers271

  • Whether they have perks / items / addons is not as relevant as the question

    SWF or not?

    What killer?

    Taking out addons on the killer side is much bigger than survivors losing items (though varies a little by killer). Losing perks hurts the survivors more.

    If we're just talking generally with both sides trying to win, probably killer. With no anti-tunnel protections whatsoever beyond the basekit BT, pretty straightforward on what needs to be done by the killer.

    in Final debate between stronger side killer vs survivor Comment by crogers271

  • I'm doing tomes too, but also escaping a pretty good rate. I've had bad stretches, but also escapes well above what I expect in 1v4. I'd guess my escape rate, not including hatches when the killers won, is over 50%.

    On your strategy advice

    Medics running around and healing is what they should be doing, especially if there aren't that many medics. If I'm the only medic I'll spend the whole game prioritizing recues/heals over gens and that usually results in a 6+ person escape.

    Whether to group on a gen really depends on what gen and when in the game. Off the start survivors should spread out on multiple gens, only grouping up if it is completing a central gen. If survivors group up too much and get scattered that's when gens don't get done. If all the survivors are in an area its relatively easy for the killers to scatter everyone, not just the 1 to 2 you discuss.

    I've had games with multiple hooks that the survivors have come back from before a gen pops (both as a killer and survivor). Hooks force the survivors to spread out, and the catch up mechanic means that if they then attack the most important gens they are in great position.

    Otherwise, yes, survivors without hook states should be more daring and willing to engage the killers, while those on death hook should be doing the support roles.

    in 2 v 8 survivors are canon fodder Comment by crogers271

  • Others, like @UndeddJester have already said what I was going to say. You can't make a map that is equally balanced for a Huntress (long open sight lines beneficial) and Ghostface (long open sight lines harmful).

    I also don't think you per se need to. Even if there was a hypothetical, perfect map I think it would get boring without variety.

    The issue isn't perfection, but how out of balance are we talking. If the killer gets a map that favors them a little, or hurts them a little, that's okay. If a little though becomes a lot, then that becomes a problem.

    in Hot Take: Map Offerings Are Not An Issue Comment by crogers271

  • Prefer OTR quite a bit. Even in a non-tunnel situation the Iron Will / Anti-aura read can still be pretty useful. I'll generally take all around value over specific scenario value.

    in DS vs. OTR Comment by crogers271

  • @Nomade said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3889528#Comment_3889528

    Yes and no.

    Once survivors actually start playing well and acting like a cohesive team, the gens start getting done efficiently and survivors can keep a killer in chase for a long time unless they mess up. Even at high levels of play, mistakes happen, and im not going to pretend that they dont, but it boils down to the fact that it is 4v1. If all of the survivors on a team are good and they are all bringing the best stuff most killers wont be able to keep up unless the survivors make mistakes (which does not sound like a good position for the power role to be in) The only exceptions would be perhaps against the S tier killers.



    Killers are thrown far fewer bones than are survivors as well, just another thing to consider.

    Its actually a super easy thing to understand but the problem is that the entire MMR system is designed in such a way to make people think they are better than they actually are, which creates a lot of ignorance. Hell, you cant even request your MMR data from BHVR anymore. People say "I dont struggle so you shouldn't either" thinking that they are playing against really good teams when really they are mistaken. I know that im not a top skill level player, but I do watch people who are and what I am seeing and hearing from them vs what some people on here are saying proves that somthing is not right. Im far more inclined to believe what I can actually see and trust in the experts than what some random person on the forums says, no offense. It would be incredibly foolish not to.

    Even at high levels of play, mistakes happen, and im not going to pretend that they dont, but it boils down to the fact that it is 4v1. If all of the survivors on a team are good and they are all bringing the best stuff most killers wont be able to keep up unless the survivors make mistakes (which does not sound like a good position for the power role to be in) The only exceptions would be perhaps against the S tier killers.

    I'd say there are four problem with this:

    1: The game accomplishes the power role by giving killers a higher skill floor and a lower skill ceiling. If you even this out between survivor and killer (which I don't think would even be possible), you'd likely lose the power role entirely.

    2: Top level SWFs are rare. It requires not just 4 players playing together, but four players who are all very good at the game, have practiced with each other, and can make time to play together. Even if this was 1% of the playerbase, which I think would be way high, it seems strange to say the game accomplishes its goal for 99% of the playerbase and then worry about the 1% that are an exception.

    But even if we limit the discussion to just that group

    3: Four survivors have additional things to worry about, like communication. If they make the same amount of mistakes as the killer, they should win because of the increased obstacles they have to overcome. You can't have a game where the side with the increased chance of making mistakes could lose even if they make less mistakes.

    Hypothetically, with perfect play, survivors should win. Lots of elements of DbD are exactly the same, always, and don't have the built in randomness. If a killer could win in those circumstances survivor would be borderline impossible.

    4: Bringing up S tier killers against teams bringing their best stuff. The killer player gets to choose who they play. The game is designed around sweatiness and killers being in different tiers (those which are starters and those which are end game). Whether those are the right design decisions is a different discussion, but they are the decisions that BHVR made. If the survivors are a 4 man running meta build, and the killer plays anything less than that, the killer should be a disadvantage.

    If I'm playing survivor and none of us bring items and use 'fun' builds and we hit a sweating Nurse, I expect to be at a disadvantage. I'm not thrilled with BHVR's design, but that's the way it works for both sides.

    Hell, you cant even request your MMR data from BHVR anymore.

    You never really could. One person, briefly, found a work around and BHVR quickly shut that down.

    Im far more inclined to believe what I can actually see and trust in the experts than what some random person on the forums says, no offense.

    That's fair, but who is the player who is actually struggling on their killer streams? Not just saying it, but actually encountering the problems. I'm sure there must be one or two I'm unaware of, but as has been mentioned by a few people above, streamers seem to be dominating their killer game without too much difficulty.

    in yay guys, more anti-killer changes coming soon Comment by crogers271

  • @xGodSendDeath said:

    What is there even to add to this thread at this point? It's like 300 posts already. The basekit anti slugging/tunneling/camping will make solo queue better while SWF gets even stronger to the point where good players would have to try to lose. Map offering and spawn changes look nice. People on this thread talking about how they win 95% of their killer games going for 12 hooks on M1s without gen slowdown but somehow have no footage of this are FOS

    People on this thread talking about how they win 95% of their killer games going for 12 hooks on M1s without gen slowdown but somehow have no footage of this are FOS

    And the thread won't progress if that is the take away.

    Win the vast majority doesn't mean 95%. Don't tunnel or slug doesn't mean 12 hook. Not everyone is saying they are playing M1 killers or going without gen slowdown. You're combining a lot of different statements throughout the thread and taking it to the extreme.

    I don't think anyone doubts that survivors CAN be good or that survivors CAN win, its just the odds are pretty heavily in the killers favor when they queue up.

    As for video, someone took this challenge recently and the immediate comments, as predicted, were 'well, the survivors you show are just bad'. Any video that is uploaded will just be shot down as not high MMR.

    That's the thing: I'm willing to believe I and others aren't at this super mythical MMR that some talk about (now that is the video I'd like to see of nothing but 4 man SWF after 4 man SWF). Except there's a much better, more public example than I: streamers. I watch streamers with thousands or tens of thousands of hours in the game, massive win percentages, who if they aren't at high MMR, no one is.

    The survivors they hit? Sometimes good, usually a mixed bag, and generally not that different than what I see in games. And they put absurd challenges on their killers to try and make the game actually interesting while still winning.

    That's better evidence than any video I can upload.

    in yay guys, more anti-killer changes coming soon Comment by crogers271

  • The mouse / cat comparison is actually pretty awesome.

    I've always been surprised how many people I talk to know about DbD. Even non-gamers sometimes have a general knowledge about it.

    in A Silly Post Comment by crogers271

  • @RpTheHotrod said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3888692#Comment_3888692

    No worries, you'll figure it out eventually with more experience. Great way to essentially force the killer into having one less viable perk in the match.

    One of the problems we have at the moment are players who go up against a particular playstyle and refuse to adapt to counter it - expecting to play how they always play every time to always work for them then cry foul when throwing themselves at a wall didn't work. That goes for both sides. Survivors playing a particular way - the killer needs to adjust accordingly. Killer playing a certsin way, the survivors need to adjust accordingly. If PR is being run, and survivors keep throwing themselves at a center gen while its constantly getting nuked to 0% are likely going to fail. That doesn't mean PR is OP, that means the survivors did not bother to counter it. A problematic hex totem? Dont pretend it doesn't exist, find it and destroy it. Ghostface in the match? Dont just keep your heads down and staring at the gen - keep a keen eye out and have one survivor dedicated to keeping tabs on him and revealing him. The matches success is always about adaptability. You're welcome to watch tournaments of some of the best players - they all play VERY differently depending who the killer is and what he's running. While the below isn't a tournament, it showcases how a professional team faced off against a ghostie.

    https://youtu.be/5LJ_lC7-VJM?si=RyjDP9xkL46YBYZq

    You'll notice immediately that they don't play their normal routine, they specifically changed their gameplay to counter the ghostie. Playing vs PR is no different. Adapt or face a rough match. The fact that such a statement is downvoted just shows how much players really don't want to make the effort to counter anything. I can promise yall that starting to actually put effort into your matches and adapting to what challenges come will make for a much more positive experience for you. Just try it. Instead of just holding m1 on a gen the entire match expecting success, consider what is going on around you and how you can counter it. Survivors have all the tools in the world to overcome the killer. That's the challenge - that's the fun. It's a far more dynamic experience.

    Bear in mind, the game is balanced around SWF, so if you solo queue, it will be a lot more challenging. You'll essentially need to bring your A game and be able to hold your own. You'll want to learn how to efficiently loop. You never know how experience your teammates are, so you'll probably need to do the countering all by yourself. If you see no one is countering, then you'll need to. If they are countering, then you have room to do gens and such. What's rough is when you're countering but others don't realize you are and can ruin it. Thats a problem with solo queue - it's innately weaker than swf. Sadly, the game just isnt balanced around solo queue, so it'll be harder to succeed. Communication with teammates is key, so hopefully we have some sort of way to do so in the future. Solo queue needs some love.

    Your concept is okay, your example is not.

    It really goes against your argument. You're welcome to watch tournaments of some of the best players - they all play VERY differently depending who the killer is and what he's running. While the below isn't a tournament, it showcases how a professional team faced off against a ghostie.

    In these matches, and comp in general, survivors know the killer and map they will have. Not only are the survivors in comms, they can set up their strategy for how to play before the start of the match. 'Pro teams' remove the element you are talking about - adjusting your playstyle during a match. Survivor teams are able to plan out exactly what they are going to do, where they are going to attack, and how they are going to play because they know everything ahead of time. They also only need to plan for a few addons as those are extremely limited.

    Its one of the primary reasons looking to comp is such a bad example for discussing DbD pub games (I say this as a person who watches a lot comp and really enjoys it for what it is).

    in yay guys, more anti-killer changes coming soon Comment by crogers271

  • Spawns a rocket launcher and flamethrower cache in the trial which is a one time use only. 

    You were going pretty well up to here. The idea of putting things like his in DbD just overshadows discussion of buffing Nemy.

    1 zombie per 2 gens I think would be more feasible.

    10% instead of 25%.

    Sprinting would be fine, but it would be strange for him to have a new power in 2v8 and is unlikely to happen.

    in Nemesis 2v8 buff ideas. Do you like these? Comment by crogers271

  • @cheapslurpiee said:

    "ANOTHER QUALITY OF LIFE POST?! OMG GIVE IT A BREAK!" YOU'RE GONNA LISTEN AND YOU WILL LIKE IT! OR HATE IT!

    In all seriousness... Some of the changes are pretty good... but I believe there are more pressing issues. To me, you should be looking at primary QOL issues like hit detection, hit boxes of players and objects, map/tile RNG, server additions or upgrades, and the overall gameplay loop and it's incentives. I wouldn't necessarily call this first phase survivor or killer sided persay, perchance, perhaps… but I think these P1 changes will help more games for killers. Overall, I think some of these issues are tertiary at best when I get hit 5 feet away from windows or see Freddy snares pass under my feet with no effect.

    Surrender State: The surrender state is not a bad thing, however it is tertiary at best because it doesn't fix the core issue nor should it be the P1 of a QOL update imo. It's cool to have, but isn't a game seller. "Hooray, I can leave a few minutes earlier instead of rotting on the floor even longer!" But it doesn't STOP the benefit of slugging, now does it? What's stopping killers from making this a social speed run category? How fast can I end the game?! It doesn't make the time spent marinating on the floor any less painful. It doesn't alleviate the dread 2 v 1 situation as well. It helps a very particular way of slugging.

    Go Next Prevention: I think this is where most people would disagree with me... I won't disagree with any argument made about the downsides to a team or game by going next early game/first chase; however I am not someone who cares if people do it. Reason being, the core game loop isn't tightly safeguarded or worried about what type of fun you're in interested in, so I don't fault people for going next to re-roll the dice. BHVRs changes aren't amazing, so implementing something that will identify and punish go nexters sounds sketch. What metrics will this be enforced with? Again, a ban/naughty lobby/blood point deduction will NOT make people enjoy the game any more. It would quicker see them leave the game entirely. 2 v 1 scenario still not addressed when you leave to allow teammate hatch. It's cool when the killer tunnels for an early exit, but if the survivor chooses an early exit, it's an "epidemic."

    Extreme Hiding: BHVRs own words are "Survivors drawing out an UNWINNABLE match" So we have determined the survivors cannot win by your own words, so essentially the fix is to say hurry up and lose. Another example of the team scenario being a hindrance when you have no solo capabilities besides hatch. THAT is a primary change imo. Also, the objective is to hook survivors but bleeding out isn't punished. Again, not addressing that a game shouldn't be unwinnable due to 2 survivors dying. Consider a gen speed up scale to keep games competitive as more people die.

    Spawn Rules: Not really a huge handicap persay, but I can see this being abused by insta down killers with lethal or could benefit Ghostface/Michael greatly unless their spawns are changed to always be the farthest from survivors. See: the above about a 4-man slug speed run.

    Incentivize killers to spread hooks and give survivors FUN side objectives that further progression or provide killer or map lore/aid in your revamping of the quest system.

    QOL issues like hit detection, hit boxes of players and objects, map/tile RNG, server additions or upgrades, and the overall gameplay loop and it's incentives. 

    Hit detection is a much trickier thing than what the planned changes and times they've played around with it in the past people haven't been thrilled.

    Maps are tough because everyone wants to change them, but people want to go in different directions.

    Server additions is a totally different thing. They could do that relatively quickly if they thought it was worth the investment.

    The gameplay loop has kept people pretty happy for almost a decade now.

    It doesn't make the time spent marinating on the floor any less painful.

    It partially does. Why does losing via slugging feel so bad? Because it takes so long without any interactive elements.

    They still need to change knockout, but a conditional surrender state is a relatively easy addition that I wish they had done a lot earlier.

    It would quicker see them leave the game entirely.

    A possibility, one I worry about as well, and we'll need to see the exact mechanics. If it does prevent people from going next so frequently I suspect the players that will be lost will be more than made up for by player gains from those who like it more.

    So we have determined the survivors cannot win by your own words, so essentially the fix is to say hurry up and lose.

    Kind of, yes. The 2v1 is a conundrum for BHVR. Creating a scenario where both survivors could realistically escape would undermine the killer's success, , without it the survivors have no reason not to hide for hatch beyond a rule telling them they can't.

    I'd be fine with extending the surrender state to 2v1 because, as you say, if its unwinnable than I wonder why the trial is still going on. That said, matches that just 'end' without an actual finish tend to leave a bad impression for most players.

    Consider a gen speed up scale to keep games competitive as more people die.

    2v8 was designed around this and still needs some tinkering, it would be much harder for 1v4. Too strong and it encourages survivors to just leave the survivor on hook to die.

    in Band Aid Fixes for the Win? Comment by crogers271

  • Lots of situations where the perk's value is significantly lessened.

    If the killer tunnels the person who brings it, no value.

    If the killer doesn't tunnel, very little value.

    If another survivor has an unhooking build, the STB user is now fighting for value.

    If the killer tunnels the STB user might have to waste a lot of time off of gens to get value by being close for the unhook.

    Even if the STB user does it successfully they might become the tunnel target and die for a 3e, which is unappealing to many survivors.

    in Shoulder the burden Comment by crogers271

  • @XtremeDBD said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3888335#Comment_3888335

    The problem with removing the pre game lobby entirely is the game could be alot less beginner friendly. The extra time could be a little less than 2 minutes, killers could also be revealed at the end of the lock in timer, but then newer survivors will be suprised by a killer they've never seen before and will have no idea how to beat them.

    The problem with removing the pre game lobby entirely is the game could be alot less beginner friendly. 

    How?

    Or put another way, how is the lobby making the game more beginner friendly?

    The extra time could be a little less than 2 minutes

    That becomes a lot more annoying than I think you anticipate.

    killers could also be revealed at the end of the lock in timer

    That's not suspense. Suspense is the feeling of being in a portion of the map, not hearing a TR for awhile, and worrying that a ghostface is actually stalking you. It's hearing a variety of different sounds and slowly coming to a realization on who is being faced.

    will be suprised by a killer they've never seen before and will have no idea how to beat them.

    That's part of theme / long term appeal of the game. 'Here's the killer you are facing, here's the counterplay' is pretty dull.

    in Killer Kits Are Steering Away From Beginner/Casual Friendly. Lets Fix That Comment by crogers271

  • @XtremeDBD said:

    Personally, it feels like these killers can harm a new player's experience with the game if they simply don't understand how to use their power/counter power, making them lose miserably and go on rage rants about perfectly healthy kits

    A fix to this and many other frustrations are the following:

    • Pre game lobbies now last 2 minutes
    • All players names are now hidden in the pre game lobby (this is to prevent tunneling the weak link, or the person with the least hours. This is a big contributing factor to the casual experience)
    • The killer is picked in the pre game lobby, and can be switched before a lock in timer of sorts
    • Survivor item types, rarities and number of add ons are revealed to all players (this is a feature on mobile, essentially being ported)
    • The killer being played is made public to the whole lobby (This change i feel makes sense since most killers are revealed at the start of matches anyway
    • When it comes to lobby dodging, a lock in timer would prevent all players from leaving a pre game lobby at a certain point, meaning that no matter who the killer picked to play, the survivors and killer must play it out)
    • Survivors who haven't played against the killer 3 times at least will get a notification directing them to the killer's power breakdown. For reworked killers, this prompt would reappear the first 3 times, for example with Freddy's rework
    • All killer power breakdowns are available in an experience journal (this would track whether you've seen a certain killer and how many times you've encountered them and your escape rate against them)
    • Bloodpoints are no longer spendable in the pre game lobby (incentivise instant readying with regards to killers being known to everyone. Survivorswho care will likely modifytheir builds to combat the killers power)
    • Bloodpoint cap is removed (compensates for no more spending in the pre game)

    Really simple fixes im suprised are not in the QOL Initiative changes. Informing players of whats to come almost forcefully is the perfect way for players to understand and improve, thus staying attached to the game. The stats tracked in the journal is more of a bonus for curious eyes, not to sure if BHVR knows an individual player's escape rates against certain killers, but if they don't, these stats can be used to make changes to killers with plentiful data

    As much as these seem like killer nerfs, the extra preparation shouldn't impact generic escape rates all too much, since survivors often don't seem to care about running counter perks and just stick to the meta

    All personal preference, i just think this can alleviate alot of problems with the casual/new player experience. Sorry for the rant : )

    • Pre game lobbies now last 2 minutes
    • All players names are now hidden in the pre game lobby (this is to prevent tunneling the weak link, or the person with the least hours. This is a big contributing factor to the casual experience)
    • The killer is picked in the pre game lobby, and can be switched before a lock in timer of sorts

    An extra minute would feel pretty annoying. Also I have no idea how that actually helps anything. People usually don't use it to communicate and, for a substantial portion of the player base, literally can't use it to communicate because players who speak different languages are grouped together.

    What you seem to be asking for is the opposite, just remove pre-game lobbies entirely which people ask for every now and then.

    • Survivor item types, rarities and number of add ons are revealed to all players (this is a feature on mobile, essentially being ported)

    You can currently see the item, just not the other stuff. Most people want something like that, just BHVR doesn't.

    • The killer being played is made public to the whole lobby (This change i feel makes sense since most killers are revealed at the start of matches anyway

    I'm a survivor main who thinks the game is very killer sided. This would switch that instantly. Perks chosen and playstyles are hugely dependent on the killer you are facing. You say killers are revealed quickly, true, but that beginning of the match is most important time of the match.

    It would also ruin the feeling of suspense.

    • When it comes to lobby dodging, a lock in timer would prevent all players from leaving a pre game lobby at a certain point, meaning that no matter who the killer picked to play, the survivors and killer must play it out)

    Removing lobby entirely would be easier.

    • Survivors who haven't played against the killer 3 times at least will get a notification directing them to the killer's power breakdown. For reworked killers, this prompt would reappear the first 3 times, for example with Freddy's rework

    Already exists.

    • All killer power breakdowns are available in an experience journal (this would track whether you've seen a certain killer and how many times you've encountered them and your escape rate against them)

    Most people would like better data tracking, but killer breakdowns are already roughly available.

    • Bloodpoints are no longer spendable in the pre game lobby (incentivise instant readying with regards to killers being known to everyone. Survivorswho care will likely modifytheir builds to combat the killers power)

    One of the few times it makes sense to spend blood points is in the lobby. Players aren't going to grind out BP levels for fun, its a time filler.

    • Bloodpoint cap is removed (compensates for no more spending in the pre game)

    Its not going to happen because games like caps to create a level of forced engagement with the mechanics to increase retention.

    TL:DR - I don't think any of these changes actually address the issue you bring up (new player experience, which lots of people agree BHVR needs to improve their tutorials for), while they would simultaneously add more wasted downtime.

    in Killer Kits Are Steering Away From Beginner/Casual Friendly. Lets Fix That Comment by crogers271

  • @Huge_Bush said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3887015#Comment_3887015

    What if we grant Killers a base-kit in game reward for hooking with a randomized beneficial effect such as an undetectable status effect for 25 seconds or a movement speed boost for 10-15 seconds? They’ll need to test it and tweak the numbers to make sure it doesn’t make Killers too oppressive but I think it’s better than just punishing them. Even if they never implement my idea, I feel like making hooking more rewarding this way would make more Killer mains opt to hook.

    That's just a totally different way to solve the problem. I don't have an issue with it, but we're now in a totally different thread idea.

    in What would be the drawback? Comment by crogers271

  • @UndeddJester said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3887054#Comment_3887054

    Yeah I suppose I get where you're coming from as I've thought about the complexity, the offence itself now is no longer clear.

    I guess I'm fundamentally against adding arbitrary restrictions on mechanics. I don't like solutions that place rules on players for an undefined arbitrary amount of time, because there will always be an exception.

    For example what if a hacker instantly Nurse teleports everyone on hook? Players can't try to kobe to kill themselves because not enough time has passed.

    Or for a legit (yet extreme) example, what if a bunch of newbies group up vs. Leatherface and all get downed rapidly from his charge resets by his iri add-on? Or even if it's just 3 get caught and the last one gets found after everyone has been hooked? Because enough time hasn't gone past, they are basically forced to sit on hook while they loose hook stages, and can't attempt to kobe...

    The devil is in the details with this kind of thing, and I don't think blocking the feature arbitrarily is the right way to go.

    I guess it boils down to how much faith you'd have in the implemented system. To me a DC penalty system that weights an offence between a single blatant/egrious instance and/or consistent patterns of high scoring instances within a short time frame seems the less intrusive of the 2 options.

    The "simplify it" argument of yours can apply to the DC penalty system too. Simply ask:

    • What were the hook stages/states of the other survivors at the time?
    • Was an attempt to 3x kobe made with a follow up of 2 non attempt checks?

    Just hitting players that fail on those 2 points with penalties would hit a substantial number of SoHs, because now trying to escape the trial by bypassing this system is at the mercy of the killer... and plenty of killers don't take kindly to SoHs either... if the risk is slugged for 4 minutes or take the DC penalty... most people take the DC.

    I guess I'm fundamentally against adding arbitrary restrictions on mechanics. I don't like solutions that place rules on players for an undefined arbitrary amount of time, because there will always be an exception.

    To me, its a video game. Everything is arbitrary mechanic.

    Like if 4%ing just never existed, it never crossed BHVR's mind, I really doubt players would be like 'something feels like its missing'. Or if from the very beginning it had a limitation on when it could be used, I don't think anyone would really think the idea of it having a limitation would even be weird.

    I think 2v8 is kind of a good example of that. No one can attempt a kobe and it doesn't feel like anything is missing.

    Or for a legit (yet extreme) example, what if a bunch of newbies group up vs. Leatherface and all get downed rapidly from his charge resets by his iri add-on?

    If I understand the new changes proposed, they can just surrender and get out of the trial.

    But let's take the worst case scenario - 3 survivors downed quickly and hooked, final one hides. Normally these 3 survivors try to kobe. Now they have to wait an extra minute.

    I'd gladly trade the mild inconvenience of that rarer scenario for the more common scenario of players rage quitting. We're not going to have a perfect solution or a perfect game, but I want the one that has the least amount of "bad" games.

    To me a DC penalty system that weights an offence between a single blatant/egrious instance and/or consistent patterns of high scoring instances within a short time frame seems the less intrusive of the 2 options.

    So I guess my post is a twofold issue.

    1: It is better to prohibit certain action than to punish it. If we/BHVR can agree on a metric whereby a player should not 4%, just don't let them 4%.

    2: The most straightforward approach should be taken to implementing that and adding layers as necessary.

    in Go Next Prevention: Why so complicated? Comment by crogers271
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