crogers271
crogers271
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@Orvarihusklumpen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3917348#Comment_3917348
So would you want to balance the game for? Casual players or the veterans because if you balance it for the casuals, the veterans suffer and vice versa. A lot of my friends who played this game for years quit this game a long time ago due to BHVR's balance decisions the last year, SBMM one of the biggest reasons.
So would you want to balance the game for? Casual players or the veterans because if you balance it for the casuals, the veterans suffer and vice versaWell, both.
So what we call balance I frequently think of as game design, but I'll use the term balance to mean both.
It's a false dichotomy to presume that its one or the other. You look at the players who play a few times a week, the ones who play everyday, the ones who are new, the ones who have put in 10,000 hours, you look at console, you look at PC.
You then try and balance the game for as many people as you can, understanding that it is inevitable that some people will be left out. Balancing games is no easy task, and balancing an asymmetrical is even harder, but if you focus on just a single group you likely have a dead game. You have to evaluate the impact of the balance issue along with the amount of players it affects.
Basically, you don't want a game element to break the game for any of your groups. Penti and MFT are good examples of this.
A lot of my friends who played this game for years quit this game a long time ago due to BHVR's balance decisions the last year, SBMM one of the biggest reasons.Lots of people quit the game all the time or go through burn out periods, but BHVR's overall player count looks to be in a very good position.
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@Thusly_Boned said:
No, they won't, and there are many reasons, good and bad.
If it was shown, people would use MMR scores to be nasty to each other, and lobby dodging would be absolutely rampant. It would be an absolute mess.
They stopped showing prestige and grade in the pregame lobby for those reasons (and they barely tell us anything), anyone who things they're going to show us MMR is deluded.
People would be really upset when they see how loose/ineffective it is, but the outcry would change nothing. They can't tighten SBMM to a meaningful degree without causing a queue time apocalypse. We've seen it. There's simply nothing to be gained from it other than knowing in numerical terms how badly SBMM works.
I mean I'm also curious, but I think we all suspect the answer, and most of us suspect it doesn't really matter much anyway. And we're probably right. This game isn't just imbalanced, it's imbalance-able. Too many variables, too much RNG, too many inconsistencies.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3917037#Comment_3917037
The opinions of the people at low MMR matter because they comprise the majority of the player base. Just how much of a majority is unclear (their number is 90%, but we don't know who/how they're counting), but there's little doubt it is the solid majority.
And when you're running a business, that matters. You cater to the people who give you the most money. Whether we like it or not, basing your game balancing around the opinion of the elite few would be a cataclysmically bad idea. From a business standpoint, the opinions of 1000 weekend casuals is vastly more important than those of a relative few god-tier players.
Whether we like it or not, the 10K hour, 2000+ MMR players aren't the one keeping the lights on at BHVR, the casuals are. And if the game isn't friendly to them and they all stop playing, so does everyone.
People would be really upset when they see how loose/ineffective it is, but the outcry would change nothing. They can't tighten SBMM to a meaningful degree without causing a queue time apocalypse. We've seen it. There's simply nothing to be gained from it other than knowing in numerical terms how badly SBMM works.I mean I'm also curious, but I think we all suspect the answer, and most of us suspect it doesn't really matter much anyway. And we're probably right. This game isn't just imbalanced,it's imbalance-able.Too many variables, too much RNG, too many inconsistencies.So there are two different possibilities here that revealing MMR could cause (I might be in complete agreement with you, I'm just not sure)-
1: We see that matches are drawing people from vastly different MMRs, meaning the MMR doesn't mean much
2: We see that matches are drawing people from very similar MMR, but that other factors are more important in determining the game outcome (example: did the survivors bring the right perk setups to counter how the killer was going to play). I suspect this is true.
On the second point and the idea of the game being imbalance-able, I think a point some people miss (just speaking generally) is that BHVR is not worried about balancing each individual trial, so much as they are concerned with balancing the overall experience with variety. If you play ten games, twice its balanced, four times its in the opponent's favor, four times its in your favor, I don't think BHVR would be worried about that.
It's not the approach most games take and whether its the right approach, or whether it even works out to that degree, is really dependent on each player's taste and experience.
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@Orvarihusklumpen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3916775#Comment_3916775
- It makes sense, why would you listen to people at low MMR anyway? This applies to a lot of things in irl situations as well.
- I agree with this but i don't think that this is all black and white. I genuinely think a lot of players just wanna know their MMR and know how the system works.
- Agreed. It was an extremely accurate system in the beginnning, remember when Dowsey had to sit in a queue for 4 hours as twins and when he finally got a match, he got destroyed? Game was literally unplayable during that whole time, it was literally sweat squads all the time and queues were atleast 5 minutes long.
It makes sense, why would you listen to people at low MMR anyway? This applies to a lot of things in irl situations as well.The why is their opinion matters.
If someone has a family and a job and they only get to play the game a couple of times a week, their opinion matters.
If someone is hard of hearing or has poor reflexes, their opinion matters.
If someone is a horror fan and rarely plays video games but likes DbD, their opinion matters.
And because many players at low MMR are the player who will one day be at high MMR, but only if they stick around to play the game. The success of a game requires retaining as many of your players as you can, not catering to a specific segment.
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@DarKStaR350z said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3916677#Comment_3916677
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/JM5V24APMR2P/img-9008.jpeg
There’s one question about why you took a break from the game or something, and the answer options are all survivor sided like killer power/perks too strong, and nothing about why a killer player might have stopped playing.
It does give an insight into the devs mindset that the killer players are not as important.It does give an insight into the devs mindset that the killer players are not as important.Or that they are seeing a lot more survivors quitting the game than killer players and that is what they are trying to figure out. Going of reports about queue times it seems a valid concern.
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@RainehDaze said:
I… feel quite baffled going through it. Like, it feels like a very important question was skipped early in the process (I'm on question 60 and counting): how much do you play each role.
Getting so many teamwork etc. questions when I only occasionally play Survivor is certainly a choice, when the answer is "it doesn't really affect me most of the time".
This seemed pretty normal to surveys I've taken in the past from them. They all have areas of focus, and they also seem to also have questions that are unclear about what they're asking.
There was no free response at the end of this one which was the only real difference I noticed.
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@AbsolutGrndZer0 said:
They have gone out of their way to keep it secret, even bringing in lawyers allegedly. So… no.
A lot gets made out of this when its really nothing. BHVR is an international corporation and almost certainly has a legal department. Someone made a claim that they had a legal right to see their MMR and encouraged others to do so. Consulting their legal department is the most obvious thing to do in that circumstance.
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Almost certainly not.
1: People would basically discount the opinions of those not at high MMR, much like those with hours under 4 digits can get discounted
2: Publishing MMR would make people play toward that system. MMR is there to ensure roughly equal matches, its not meant to be about how people play or what a win is.
3: It's not meant to be a precise ranking. People get upset about the idea that they can run a killer for 5 gens, die at the end, and lose MMR. It's not supposed to matter to the players though, its just supposed to be a rough number for matchmaking.
How it works to my knowledge
Kills/escapes to gain/lose MMR, hatch counts as nothing
Quick matches give less MMR, 10 minutes or over give full
Survivor MMR gain/loss is adjusted by the escapes/deaths of others. When they announced this I thought it applied to everyone, but now I generally hear people say it just means SWFs.
At a certain level the ability to gain MMR becomes very difficult (hard cap).
Killers have their own MMR, but each player also has an average MMR that applies to all their killers.
The amount you gain / lose depends on the MMR of the opponent. If you lose to someone with a much higher MMR, neither party really moves in either direction.
I've heard that their is anti-smurfing protection so that experienced players who start new accounts jump up much quicker, but I have no idea on the mechanisms of how it works
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@Nomade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3915646#Comment_3915646
And Sabo and bully squads arent abusive? Survivors lose their minds when the killer does what they have to in order to win but survivors get to play however they want and if killers say anything about it, we are just evil. We cant talk about nerfing SWFs we cant talk or ask for nerfs to problematic perks, survivors even complain about completely harmless things like getting moried. When survivors get together can complain about something the devs are at your beck and call and nerf it but killers are rarely listened to with any kind of expediency. Problematic survivor perks take half a year or more to be addressed but if a killer gets released and is too strong they are nerfed within weeks. Often, The issue is not that the nerfs happen it is that the experience of killer players is being treated as less valuable than that of survivors. Many killer perks that really dont need a nerf end up getting sacrificed on the alter of "lets make things better for solo casuals" making killer that much more stressful to play against good survivors and especially SWFs, while survivors continue to get insane new perks, and the most insane perk buffs imaginable. The weaker killer perks get overall, the harder killers need to try to make up the difference, but then survivors complain about how sweaty the killer players.
We cant win no matter what we do. You get our perks nerfed, and then complain about being tunneled, camped slugged and the killer having to sweat. Every single time hook states are nerfed, and our gen regression, slowdown and chase perks are nerfed the more the killer HAS to tunnel, slug and camp in order to win. Yes, killers have allways done these things to some extent because they are efficient ways to win but ask yourself this and be honest, is slugging and tunneling getting worse than it was in years past or is it getting better? I think most people will say its definitely getting worse. Survivors have the tools to win in every single situation if played right. and the right perks are brought, Killer doesnt. Thats why at the top level comp play there are a lot of things that are just completely banned for survivor.
There are still ways to infinite loop in the game. Its just not as common as it once was.
Additionally, are you aware that there are some killers who just can't play certain loops in the game against good survivors? Good survivors are able to manipulate it so that some killers can just never get bloodlust and for killers who dont have a power that can deal with that, those loops become completely unplayable.
I think that when the devs implament the change to survivors spawning together instead of seperated it will bring with it a crazy number of complaints to the point where the devs walk it back.
Fixing things that are just blatantly game breaking are a non argument. Throwing the killer a few bones a few times a year in an endless sea of nerfs to our most relied on perks while giving us no new perks to take their place and acting like the killers have had it good as a result is not an even remotely fair or good argument to make. I feel we have been treated as second class players by the developers.
In most areas where killer has had it rough, those areas have only gotten worse. We now have allmost no good slowdown and regression perks left. . Many of our chase perks are dead with the haste and hindered changes, hex builds are now totally dead (hexes have sucked for a really long time but pentimento made running them at least kinda okay compared to the alternatives). All this and we are now getting a patch that is having the largest buffs to SWF teams I have ever seen. All 3 of the new survivor perks are outrageous in the hands of SWFs.
Survivors are literally swimming in completely insane options for perks to bring for a match and killers have been having our options reduced more and more between nerfs to perks and these anti gameplay systems they introduce and things like gen kick limits.And Sabo and bully squads arent abusive?1: You're giving another example of a killer rulebook.
2: Bully squads are basically by definition abusive because they aren't even trying to play the game.
3: Sabo squads are another example of something BHVR has listened to killers on and made much more difficult.
Survivors lose their minds when the killer does what they have to in order to win but survivors get to play however they want and if killers say anything about it, we are just evil.But your example on the survivor side isn't even about winning, its about a bully group that intentionally is there to mess with the killer.
We cant talk about nerfing SWFs we cant talk or ask for nerfs to problematic perks, survivors even complain about completely harmless things like getting moried.You're confusing the ability to talk about things with the fact that others might disagree with your take on it.
Same is true on the other side. If someone made a post about tunneling / slugging / camping / etc there would very quickly be a killer coming into disagree. Which isn't a surprise, its a discussion forum afterall.
When survivors get together can complain about something the devs are at your beck and call and nerf it but killers are rarely listened to with any kind of expediency.And that's just simply not true. We've already shown lots of things the devs have taken action on that killers have had an issue with.
Problematic survivor perks take half a year or more to be addressed but if a killer gets released and is too strong they are nerfed within weeks.Again, just not true. SM, Chucky, stayed very stronger for a long time, the majority of the recently released killers have been overall buffed since they were released (Houndmaster being the most notable).
Survivors have the tools to win in every single situation if played right. and the right perks are brought, Killer doesnt.'The right perks are brought' is the key phrase. If the killer tunnels and the survivor brings anti-tunnel, they are in great shape. If the killer slugs and they have anti-slug, again great. If the killer tunnels and they have anti-slug, well they're in a lot of trouble.
Not knowing how the killer will play is one of the biggest advantages.
Thats why at the top level comp play there are a lot of things that are just completely banned for survivor.Things have to be banned because comp is overall designed to benefit the survivors. They know who the killer is going to be, what map they'll play on, and all the perks/addons that the killer is banned from having. These are huge advantages for the survivor side.
Its also irrelevant on what they ban because comp is inherently balanced. They could play perkless Trapper and it would still be balanced because both sides play under the same conditions.
Additionally, are you aware that there are some killers who just can't play certain loops in the game against good survivors? Good survivors are able to manipulate it so that some killers can just never get bloodlust and for killers who dont have a power that can deal with that, those loops become completely unplayable.We're off topic, but three responses:
1: Survivors don't know the killer they are going to face. They can't go into a game anticipating this as a strategy.
2: Killers have perks too. If you're playing a killer weak against loops like this you can easily choose a perk to make up for that weakness.
3: The killer never has to chase a survivor to an area. There are other survivors to pursue, gens to defend, etc. I never like to talk about 'good' survivors, but if we are, 'good' killers don't let themselves get stuck in this situation.
I feel we have been treated as second class players by the developers.You can feel however you want, but its not much grounds for a discussion.
Survivors are literally swimming in completely insane options for perks to bring for a match and killers have been having our options reduced more and more between nerfs to perks and these anti gameplay systems they introduce and things like gen kick limits.So this basically sums up things I've been saying, but to reiterate:
Survivors have lots of good situational options, but they have no idea what situation they will be in. Killer 'options' have been ever so slightly been reduced to try and encourage more varied playstyles. Things like the 3 gen kicking (which when it was changed came with an overall buff to killers despite arguments it was somehow anti-killer change) where meant to take away from the idea that a killer could just lock into a strategy ahead of time and the survivors only chance was if they had anticipated the right build.
Edit to add:
Many of our chase perks are dead with the haste and hindered changesStopping haste from being stacked has been a killer request for quite some time, but you're only looking at how it impacts killers.
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@cheapslurpiee said:
I play this game. It's got some good points and some good moments, but I cant for the life of me get over how it feels like I'm just being bent over repeatedly and there's not much I can do about it.
People say to just treat it casually but I seriously don't know how. It's an online PvP game with core gameplay mechanics and perks that are always major topics of contention even if we are talking about a couple seconds or percentage points difference. That's not very casual...
I cant help but to get upset - it's just not making sense to my eyes. I get pimp slapped across the back of my head from feet away, outplaying or outsmarting the killer doesn't always yield positive results, and I cant even build relationships with other players in comms that could lead to a more casual/comedic experience.
I've got almost 1k hours in this game so obviously it's not terrible, but I'd actually like to have a consistent experience in terms of enjoyment - at the very least. It just seems like the asymmetrical nature is kicking yall's keisters. It's like disarming a bomb. You tweak a lil bit, stare at the bomb in fear, tweak some more, then BOOM! Incoming hit scan Kaneki.
I just want to know how I can enjoy myself more across the board even when I'm dealing with slugging Twins, tunneling Knights, and 20k cash tournament Blights.
So most of your examples aren't about casual and competitive. Things like slugging, tunneling, etc. just aren't fun. You aren't complaining about losing, you're complaining about the how it happens.
Which if so, I'm right there with you. That gameplay elements like this exist really turn the game off from being a casual experience.
Hopefully the upcoming changes help with that. As what you can do as a player, I definitely try to prepare for this. Example: f you're slugged, turn on something to listen to.
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@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3916007#Comment_3916007
I can't count the number of times I've seen the same abomination of math argument to justify the game continuing to be balanced unfairly in killers favor, but thank you for debunking it once again. I should really just save it as a copy/paste at this point…
There was a big math throw down back in August where for a bit I thought things had finally been cleared up, but it seems to be a mistake that will just keep living on.
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@JPLongstreet said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3916119#Comment_3916119
We have to remember that Nightlight is data from matches uploaded from individual players themselves, and not a global representation. That alone opens it up to players picking what info to post or not. But it goes behind that flaw.
The mindset of such players must be taken into account, as it is only used by the sweatier crowd. It also is only in English, and no consolers would be using it either. Tiny sample size indeed.
All of this is why its stats don't always match up with the dev's info, just shows incomplete trends mainly. The best example has always been Self Care.
Whenever they post perk usage it always is top ten overall, but Nightlight does not reflect that. Despite being regarded as a weak perk in the NA and Europe regions it's a staple of the Asian region for example, whose playstyle is drastically different, plus its free to obtain and new player friendly. You need a global reach to see what's really happening overall and in the average trial.
Nightlight might be all we got, but it is flawed.
As I said in my post: "In the past when stats have come out with a few notable exceptions the numbers where usually pretty close"
Things like self-care and the Doctor's low kill rate had explanations. There were a few outliers, but most of the killers were in a reasonable margin that Nightlight gave a pretty good picture of what was happening in the game.
Nightlight might be all we got, but it is flawed.I've been a big defender of using Nightlight stats based off the past history. These numbers though are very, very different. We're looking at differences of 10 to 15% in the reported numbers, even more radically in the case of Twins.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
The block function stops them from sending you friend requests, not from being in a game with them.
It blocks the chat as well, right? At least I thought it did, but I might be wrong on that as its not a function I use.
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Big differences being that SM was around a lot longer and despised by many players. BHVR also doesn't just go off of kill rates, they have other factors such as performance at different MMR levels, game distribution, etc. though we the players only really get the kill rate break down.
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Highly doubt they'd remove it or radically alter it. Every time they've ever talked about it they seem quite pleased with how things are functioning.
Realistically, I think a game like DbD absolutely needs it.
I guess the largest possible rework is making the MMR more dependent on the overall survivor outcome instead of the heavy focus on the individual death/escape/hatch.
On a more minor level, they could just do something like lengthening the time a bit that it is willing to wait to find a close match before expanding the range it searches.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
Are we allowed to know what percentage of players are in the 1,800+ MMR range?
We just got official BHVR stats that list "MMR 500 and above" and "MMR 1,800 and above", but we have absolutely no idea what percentage of players this is.
When BHVR says Blight's doing well at 1,800 MMR and above, is that the top 5%? Is it the top 1%? Are we allowed to know how rare it is for a Blight player to perform over the 60% kill rate?
For the "High MMR" survivor stats, are we allowed to know what percentage of players are "high MMR"? Is it still 5%? Is 1,800+ MMR the top 5%?
They comment 10%, as shown in the thread, but we still don't know how big of a player pool they are counting. Is the player pool everyone who has ever launched the game, everyone who played at least once during the trial period, or some other number?
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Very interesting stats.
My big take away is how different the numbers are from Nightlight. In the past when stats have come out with a few notable exceptions the numbers where usually pretty close. That's not true anymore with Nightlight having kill rates well below BHVR's stats.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3915936#Comment_3915936
Still showd as 50% to me, so I commented.
Survivors don't win or lose together. They have an individual win condition. If 1 survivor escaped, they won. If 2 escaped, 2 won. If 3 escaped, survivors had 3 winners. If all 4 escaped, then the survivors side had 4 winners.
If every single survivor had a 50% chance to escape, then on average the killer would win (3k+) 32.25% of the time. I don't think you understanding what you're asking for survivors to have a 50% win rate (ie escape rate).
For a killer to have a 50% win rate, each survivor would roughly have a 38.5% escape rate. According to BHVRs stats, all numbers for survivors whether solo, duo, trio, or full squads are well above that.
Edit - bring on the downvotes. This is the flat out math with hard numbers. This isn't opinion - it's the cold hard truth of it.
Edit - bring on the downvotes. This is the flat out math with hard numbers. This isn't opinion - it's the cold hard truth of it.Except a lot of it is opinion and some of the math is wrong. You're making a few structural errors in your argument.
Looking to some of the posts you make later in the thread
Way back when, one BHVR representative said that the killer getting a single kill counts as a win for them which means a killer can win up for 4 times a match which is just bizarre to think about.No, this is very straightforward. If you play 25 matches, and face 100 survivors, and kill 67 of them (67%), you won 67% of the matches.
Which brings us to another comment you make
I have to reiterate I'm talking about how things currently are designed - not how we wish things were. We can wish for things all day long, but it doesn't matter in the face of reality. Currently, a win is any escape by any means.But you aren't talking about how things are designed. The whole concept of a killer win rate that is separate from kill rate is a concept that is created by the community. If you think survivors escape = win according to BHVR, than kill = win according to BHVR.
Using the above example, if you killed 67 survivors out of a hundred you won 67 times. How that breaks down trial by trial is irrelevant. You can't have this both ways, if you want to go on a strict survivor escape = win, than a killer getting a kill = win.
In fact, BHVR refers to hatch escapes as a null value, not a draw, like it never happened. That would mean if you killed 67 survivors, and 8 escaped via hatch, you actually have a win rate of 72.8%.
Secondly, you're confusing how things are designed compared to MMR. An MMR system needs a zero sum game, i.e. a win condition. BHVR is quite clear that the MMR condition does not need to be people's win condition. But if we use the MMR condition as the win condition, it is the same for killer and survivor and kill rate equals win rate.
And finally
For a killer to have a 50% win rate, each survivor would roughly have a 38.5% escape rate. According to BHVRs stats, all numbers for survivors whether solo, duo, trio, or full squads are well above that.This is just incorrect and a common error that comes up on the forums. Just knowing the kill rates does not mean you can know what the win rates are. @Firellius already commented with the Deathslinger numbers as a good example, but additionally a survivor can escape via the hatch and lead to escape rate numbers, but that is not a loss for the killer.
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@Hannacia said:
I took a 3 month break from the game and came back few weeks back. I don't really play killer in the new bloodmoon event because i dont hate myself enough to do that, but i've also noticed that generators go pretty fast in normal mode.
I don't play with 4 gen defenses so maybe its my fault, but i just find it boring. I normally have 1-2 gen defense and 1 chase and 1 aura or 2 aura perks. I just simply can't keep up with game speed anymore.
Sadly if survivors are even semi decent in this game playing for 12 hooks is not possible anymore. You can do that against survivors that arent good at looping and are lost in the sauce sure but good or decent survivors will destroy you.
I'm not sure how they will balance this.
Also i try to play as fair as possible in my games. Sadly survivors tend to tunnel themselfs by bodyblocking me when im trying to go after someone who unhooked.
Sadly if survivors are even semi decent in this game playing for 12 hooks is not possible anymore. You can do that against survivors that arent good at looping and are lost in the sauce sure but good or decent survivors will destroy you.I'm not sure how they will balance this.This comes up every time tunneling is discussed. There's is a huge difference between trying to 12 hook and tunneling out the first survivor on the first three hooks.
It's an elimination game. 12 hooking should be incredibly difficult, while tunneling out a survivor on the first 3 hooks creates a very unfun game. There's a lot of ground in between that BHVR can shoot for.
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@THE_Crazy_Hyena said:
I think the longest recorded in the modern day was 53 minutes. Chess Merchant vs. Team Eternal.
There were talks about matches going until server timeout during the Chess Merchant era, but I have not seen recordings of that. Servers time out at 60 minutes (1 hour).Back in the day, before the time limit came along, I have heard examples of hatch standoffs that took several hours. The most stubborn players would often end up in ridiculous stalemates that would last for way too long. This is the reason behind the End Game Collapse and the subsequent one-hour time limit.
There were talks about matches going until server timeout during the Chess Merchant era, but I have not seen recordings of that.Don't know why I didn't remember initially, but I am aware of such a recording (this is an edited down version). Knight actually, played by Hens. I watched it years ago and it has footage from the survivor side as well.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3915397#Comment_3915397
The last time they promised something anti-camp related, it came out as an implicit tutorial on how to camp more efficiently.
And when we got the anti-3 gen it came with a buff to killer kicks and an elimination of gen tapping.
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@dbdiscool said:
Just curious. I had one over 50 minutes once I didn't even know matches could go that long(haven't put that many hours into dbd like only around 80 hours)
Now a days servers time out at an hour. Under modern times for a recorded match it would probably be the infamous Skull Merchant game that ended relatively close to that hour mark.
Back in the old days when the servers went longer and there were hatch stand offs games could go much longer.
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@Nomade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3888164#Comment_3888164
Why is it that killers are the only ones who have rules for how they have to play but when killers talk about gen rushing and other things that are a problem, there is almost never any action taken? Im sure you are aware of the constant conversations around SWFs and how much they break the game, but patch after patch we dont ever see them get weaker, in fact its just the opposite. SWFs get even stronger perks to abuse over time.
Why is it that killers are the only ones who have rules for how they have to play but when killers talk about gen rushing and other things that are a problem, there is almost never any action taken?Infinities, auto completing generators with BMPs, FTP+Buckle Up, and even more recent things like adding hooks to counter survivors trying to make themselves unhookable.
We're even getting survivors starting in tighter groups to slow down on the early game rush.
It's simply not true that killer's don't have rules about how survivors should play, its just most of the really abusive stuff (Infinites) was already addressed.
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3914939#Comment_3914939
Except… if you want to win against competent survivors tunneling or higher tier killers is basically required. And not everyone wants to play higher tier killers.
In fact I could use this same argument for survivors when they complained about pentimento. Don't like pentimento? Just do bones or run counterforce or a map.Except… if you want to win against competent survivors tunneling or higher tier killers is basically required. And not everyone wants to play higher tier killers.Except if you want to win against competent killers, gen rushing or playing in a SWF is basically required. And not every wants to play in a SWF.
The game has levels of sweatiness on both sides. It's nothing new.
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@TunnelingIsNecessary said:
Duty of Care gives +25% haste to survivors within a 16 meter radius after taking a protection hit. Correct?
Why does Forced Hesitation give -20% hindered to survivors after a survivor is put into the dying state in a 16 meter radius?
Why is it, again, easier to activate for survivors with a higher effect? With overcome, the survivor that takes the protection hit just zooms away. What option do you have as a killer at this point? Do I really have to go and play Nurse or Blight every game to counteract this annoying build?
Can we also talk about the breakout changes? You literally can't go play against a sabo squad anymore because a survivor now moves at 4.4m/s when you're carrying a survivor.
Why does Forced Hesitation give -20% hindered to survivors after a survivor is put into the dying state in a 16 meter radius?Because Forced Hesitation is a perk that allows a Killer to potentially snowball the game into a victory with quick downs.
Duty of Care sacrifices a health state for the chance to keep the team alive.
Both perks are counter perks meant to deal with a potential situation and can potentially get no value, meaning when they do get value it should be strong.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3914794#Comment_3914794
I can tell you right now, from the many dramatic post-game chats I've gotten from survivors, that camping survivors absolutely adds more drama to the game.
Okay….how is Duty of Care not fun?
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@Bodark said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3914809#Comment_3914809
Not even close. I specified Deadlock and NOED as killer second chance perks so nice try.
The system I came up with is not broad at all even remotely. 2nd chances are second chances. A killers power has nothing to do with 2nd chances unless it can keep a survivor from leaving the game.
Pigs RBT. Pinhead Possessive Chain Gate Blocker and so on. A power that allows you to down has nothing to do with second chances. It’s common sense.
I’m not sure what’s so hard to understand honestly. 2nd chance explains itself.
- Deadlock 100% a second chance perk
- NOED 100% a second chance perk
- Dead Hard 100% a second chance perk
- DS 100% a second chance perk
- Built to last ZERO percent second chance perk
- STBFL ZERO percent 2nd chance perk
Do I really need to go through every single perk to teach people what a second chance perk is? It seems self explanatory to me.
It seems self explanatory to me.Literally the point of the thread is about how calling things second chance doesn't make sense. I agree with the OP on that and you're using a broader definition of the term than anyone else I've seen, so clarifying the definition would be helpful.
Looking at your list and other ones that you mention throughout the thread are second chance and ones that aren't seems like you're just picking things at random.
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@Bodark said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3914652#Comment_3914652
Clearly not even remotely the same. A killer power in which you injure a survivor can never be considered a second chance anything.
Pigs RBT COULD be a second chance at killing survivors in the endgame if there trap is active.
A Hatchet being a second chance attack is just moronic, plain and simple.
A Hatchet being a second chance attack is just moronic, plain and simple.Kind of missing the point. I'm saying the way you're talking about second chance means that hatchets are second chance. If even self-care is a second chance because it allows survivors to do something they normally couldn't do, then hatchets must also be second chance because they give killers a second chance at getting a down.
Or how about this - when Huntress got buffed from 5 to 7 hatchets, did that mean she got both a 2nd and 3rd chance? Or in fact is every hatchet after the 2nd a '2nd chance' hatchet, so she has a 2nd through 5th chance?
Your definition is so broad that it seems like everything can fall under it, but you just want to apply it to the survivor side.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3914655#Comment_3914655
And Duty of Care isn't fun for killers, even if it means there is an extra survivor that isn't repairing generators.
Do you see how that works? The number of survivors repairing generators doesn't actually mean anything, because things can be frustrating for survivors even if they can repair generators uninterrupted, and things can be frustrating for killers even if an extra survivor isn't repairing a generator.
And Duty of Care isn't fun for killers, even if it means there is an extra survivor that isn't repairing generators.Serious question: how is it not fun?
Because the survivor/being camped example is easy to see how its not fun. No one, including the killer, is doing anything engaging. That's why I brought up examples like survivors hiding out. You also have things like survivors sitting by the exit gate. The reason its not fun and instead boring is very clear.
What about the idea of survivors being able to take a body block to protect another survivor and help them out isn't fun? It seems to create engagement, tension, adds more drama and options to the chase.
Because if the idea is that killers should be able to just chase down survivors 1 on 1 without any interference, that's not a viable model for a multiplayer game.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
With your logic, survivors should be super happy if a killer camps their first hook, because it means 3 survivors are repairing generators uninterrupted. Because if the killer didn't camp, and found someone else to chase instead, that means less than 3 survivors would be repairing generators.
The problem with camping first hook, especially if we go back to the days when before AFC when Bubba could just stand in front, was its just boring. I've been in plenty of games where the killer camped first hook, we all did gens, and left. It's not a fun game for anyone.
Kind of comparable to two survivors just hiding for hatch. The killer is going to win if they want, but no one is having fun.
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Broadly agree and have always found the term 'second chance' strange.
The game isn't designed to be played perkless/item less/addon less. Part of the game is the strategy of what things you take to buff your survivor / killer. Perks that can extend the chase are a big part of that and have nothing to do with whether the survivor made a mistake or not.
@Bodark said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3914596#Comment_3914596
Most killers hate most second chance perks. But I don’t think any killer hates self care even though it’s very clearly a second chance perk.
They complain about the blatant ones. DH is personally very annoying to me to this day. I call it Crutch Hard because it literally can not be countered by me as a Huntress main. You can’t fake throw a hatchet. Robbing me of a down and a hook and huge pressure. It feels very cheap and unearned. It’s abysmally easy to press E when a hatchet is heading your way.
DS is absurd as well sometimes. I’ll down a completely separate survivor very quickly and rotate back to the unhooked survivor because I stumbled into them and I get punished for being good at chases and get punished for their mistake of running into me. (It should deactivate if I hook someone else imo)
But Mettle of Man is very clearly a second chance perk that I would never complain about because it is hard to get. And comes with a huge Aura reading downside.
It’s just a general thing to complain about. Not all second chance perks are annoying. Some are very much so.
I call it Crutch Hard because it literally can not be countered by me as a Huntress main. You can’t fake throw a hatchet. Robbing me of a down and a hook and huge pressure.Aren't hatchets just 'second chance' attacks for the killer? Stop 'robbing' me of my loop by just downing me with a hatchet.
No one is being robbed. Both sides have powers / perks / items that they use to play the game.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3914403#Comment_3914403
Back then, I learned alongside Willie. I had the 3rd highest condemned back then. Sadly it's not the chase anymore, because I stopped playing her after the first rework only to come back after they partially revered that terrible change.
I can give you some advice to how I play, as my game plan is simple yet effective.
Build:
- Stbfl
- Surge
- Hex: face the darkness
- Discordance
Addons:
- Ring drawing
- Bloody fingernails
The core structure of almost all my games:
- Start by traversing the map looking for survivors. Try to get one hit in to activate face the darkness. If not, no problem, no pressure. If Discordance pops, don't go there. Wait for the tv to pop up next to the Gen and immediately TP for two stacks. You should be first if your on point, as the animation of a survivor can be interrupted by a TP (very important!) Then, either you get a hit or you TP somewhere else. To as often as possible to shut tvs off.
!!! IMPORTANT: REMEMBER EACH TV YOU SHUT OFF AND EACH TV THAT YOU HAVE NOT SHUT OFF. IT REVEALS WHERE SURVIVORS ARE!!!
- Start applying pressure. Show them that they need to deal with your power excessively. Your are faster on tvs than they are as they have an animation and you don't. When sadako shuts off a TV, a survivor can only put a tape into it. Not get one from it. Therefore the cooldown on those tvs is shorter. You as Sadako have to decide what chases to take and which not. It's a win if you get a stack. It's a win if you get a hit. It's a win if you get a pallet or down. Never let them decide where you go. If you keep up to date on tvs and their cooldowns, you will be able to move super freely around the map, enabling the strongest hit and run playstyle in dbd. Strong because it can very often end in a mori.
- How to play after a tp: immediately demanifest if you dont get a hit. Look where the other survivors are and TP there. Repeat that. Poke at them. If you haven't mastered tracking survivor movement speed, don't worry. That's what face the darkness is there for. It gives you constant information on where people are and where you CAN apply pressure.
- Tips for chases: chase them to tvs and get stacks. Don't shy away from leaving someone. If you got a hit and they heal, you wasted their time. If you got a stack, that's progress they have to try to get rid off. Poke at their recourses. Keep in mind, that bodyblocks don't work against you. That's an incredible strength against coordinated teams that take hits. In these bodyblocks situations, you can again make decisions. Down the person that you want to down or get stacks on them via tvs. Most survivors, even the very good ones focus on chase. Especially when they bodyblocks for others. They try to get to the next loop and never look for tvs in proximity. One survivor dodging a TV is realistic. 2 survivors that are bodyblocking for each other? They are less aware and take the stacks over a down. Mistake on their part imo. You have enough experience on her that I dont have to tell you much about her invisibility mindgames or stun-denial. Important is though: almost always be demanifested. I only manifest if I'm certain that I will get a hit.
It's very important that you know how to use the map to your advantage. Spots whrlere you can see more of the map are vital to track survivors and potentially deny them putting or grabbing tapes.
Playing this to perfection is not easy and demands a lot of focus and concentration. Playing Sadako often stresses me out more than any other killer.
My result: I win a majority of my games.
It's amusing how often teams that have comp all over their profile fall apart and lose their coordination due to constant hit and run aggression. If one of them fall, they all do.
The build I told you is extremely good to learn her and is also very strong if you mastered this playstyle.
- Stbfl enhances your chase potential. As Sadako gets every hit with m1, this perk is vital.
- Discordance provides info. Always. If it doesn't activate, it gives you info where survivors are as it does when it's active. Free stacks.
- Surge is the best slowdown perk on her, as it slows down gens while you do your stuff. It helps you to focus on applying pressure to survivors and not to gens (never thought about that funnily enough.)
- Hex: face the darkness the best learning perk on her, as it provides constant information. If they shut it off via healing? Good. More time wasted on their part. They want to stay healed, as Sadako is a stealth killer. They stay injured? Free info. Extremely strong. They destroy your totem? More time wasted and you should have enough pressure and info on them at this point anyway.
I dont have to explain the addons, do I?
I sadly don't have any gameplay recorded, as I've run into problems with that in the past, but I can do that for you if you need it :).
If you have any questions or need further advice on how to play this way, feel free to ask, I love to help.
I always appreciate someone who takes the time to make a long post walking through everything.
I haven't played Sadako nearly as much as you, though I run a somewhat similar build (though I almost never run a consistent build). I usually put on Sloppy because slowing down those heals help, and will use Surveillance instead of Discordance (though I'll probably give it a try, I see the benefit of not kicking gens).
I ran Hex: Face the Darkness on her as more of a 'let's just throw something random on' and yeah, that's a really helpful perk.
!!! IMPORTANT: REMEMBER EACH TV YOU SHUT OFF AND EACH TV THAT YOU HAVE NOT SHUT OFF. IT REVEALS WHERE SURVIVORS ARE!!!Playing this to perfection is not easy and demands a lot of focus and concentration. Playing Sadako often stresses me out more than any other killer.I think this is a really important point. The difference between the skill floor and skill ceiling is a lot greater and more gradual on Sadako than it is some other killers. Keeping track of the TVs gives a ton of info, but it does take a lot more focus.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3888122#Comment_3888122
If you are tackling camping, tunneling and slugging, then this undeniably effects the balance of the game. Am I missing something?
I imagine their data for however they are defining tunneling/slugging shows that that the killers who don't engage in that bhvr (heh) do just fine.
It's kind of like the anti-3 gen changes. If you never 3 genned you got a buff to gen kicking. If the change is something like that which doesn't even impact the vast majority of matches, it won't have a noticeable impact on statistics.
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@fixblitzskin said:
Phase 2 has some changes listed to slugging camping and tunneling. Phase 1 is pretty tame but 2 seems game changing. If they were to punish tunneling camping and slugging to the point where it is not viable anymore to do it I hope this encourages buffs to killers so they can be fun to play. Reason why killers can’t be buffed is because they are kinda restricted into how tunneling camping and slugging are currently. The only things that I can think of for each is that they can increase the anti camp meter, basekit unbreakable and maybe something like baby sitter basekit ? Honestly idk but it ain’t good for killer that’s for sure but if this is what it takes to give killers buffs to be able to play without these methods and make survivor better than so be it I guess. I will have to just wait and see because who knows maybe they’ll just increase the borrowed time from 10 seconds to like 12 and change the anti camp to 16 meters to 18 lamao
The only things that I can think of for each is that they can increase the anti camp meter, basekit unbreakable and maybe something like baby sitter basekitThere's lot of other possibilities
Anti-slug: increase crawling speed, an 'anti-slug' meter like the anti-camp meter if the killer stands over the slug, basekit heal while crawling, You could have 50% of the amount that a survivor has healed on the ground by themselves (ie.g. not from being by another survivor) translate into healing progress when they get back up. You could have something more extreme like a slug meter where if the total time all survivors have spent on the ground exceeds X number of minutes, then they all get faster healing/unbreakable (which would be something like the anti 3 gen mechanic that rarely impacts a normal game and deals with the outliers they wish to address).
Anti-tunnel: The endurance coming off hook could be treated as its own unique endurance, so even if the killer hit it the survivor could still use OTR or DH. Killer powers could be disabled around the immediate area of an unhook. Adding in intangibility to survivors for the first few seconds. Making their haste coming off hook faster.
Anyway, that's just some of the things that crossed my mind or I've heard others suggest, I'm sure there's lots of other possibilities. The point isn't to say 'here's what BHVR should do', just to show there's lots of options.
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@DragonMasterDarren said:
This isn't feedback on the perk, because I'm not playing the PTB on account of there not being any content that interests me that won't inevitably be changed from PTB to Live. But I have been seeing a good number of people going "Duty Of Care is abusable and OP", and quite honestly? I don't really see it.
Now, to be fair, I do agree that the perk can be really obnoxious against a 4 man with comms. But the problem I have with that is that it runs under the assumption that a 4 man with Comms is particularly common, which, contrary to what people who have never played Survivor in their life might think, is just fundamentally untrue, SWF, especially the 4man comp boogeymen, are not that common, and quite honestly I don't think I've actually gone against a 4man SWF that had the express intent of winning and humiliating me in actual years, most SWF are just 2 dudes chilling in a Discord call, not a 4 man goof troop intent on ruining people's days.
The second point I have is just asking you to really think on it, how frequently do you, as Killer, get body-blocked by a survivor, or how frequently do you see people taking protection hits? At most I see it happen like once, maybe twice, and I end up downing the body-blocker like 20 seconds later anyway. Body-blocks really do not happen that often, and sure a perk that requires protection hits might encourage more people to go for them, but if we really want to go by that logic, why don't more people run Mettle of Man? Why don't people run more perks that enable repeat body blocks? Simple reason, it ain't worth it.
Like lets really think about this critically for a second, lets say someone runs Duty Of Care in place of one of their existing perks and gets value from it, the killer in that case is just going to chase them. If that's the user's intention then great, the perk's done its job, but what if the user is running a build designed to make the perk as obnoxious as possible? Quite frankly that's a indirect buff to the Killer, because that's one less person running a Meta build, and, more importantly, one less person actively doing gens. Like really think about that, if you're running a build designed to get you healed up quickly and get repeated protection hits, you're probably not going to be on gens, you're going to be in a corner healing, running to teammates for heals, or be in the killer's face going for a body-block. You're not doing the objective, you're not really helping the team progress the state of the match, you're being a annoyance, an effective annoyance probably, but still a annoyance, and honestly I don't really have much issue with that, I'd rather play against a goober not doing gens then a team that wants to do the gens as fast as possible. Interactions between both sides are fun, and this perk means more interactions, which is fine by me.
And the final reason I don't really see the perk being a issue is that a good chunk of killers and perks can either completely ignore it, or render it completely ineffectual, Mobility killers are not going to care if you give someone 6 seconds of Dramaturgy speed, and every killer with a insta-down power or a Exposed perk is just never going to notice it, hell even Legion to a degree can completely negate Duty Of Care by virtue of keeping survivors injured most of the match. Even in a 4-man squad this perk has plenty of counterplay, and that's why I don't feel it will be a issue, you as a Killer have options to counteract it, it forces Survivors to interact with the killer to get value out of it, and the majority of players simply don't play in a way that would make the perk particularly obnoxious. Annoying in a 4-man when you're playing a killer with no insta-down or Exposed perks? Sure, but we shouldn't be concerned or cry foul about perks that might be obnoxious in a literal 1 in a thousand scenario, we should be looking at how something is used by the majority of the player base, and if the majority of the player base either doesn't use it or only uses it in a couple of scenarios, it'll probably be fine.
I said this when Shoulder The Burden released and consequently fell into near irrelevancy less then a month later, don't overhype Niche perks and act like they'll lead to some new insane strategy that'll make killer incredibly unfun and therefore needs to be nerfed immediately, it's 6 seconds of Dramaturgy speed, I think most killers will be fine.
G'night
Broadly agree, some additional details.
But the problem I have with that is that it runs under the assumption that a 4 man with Comms is particularly common, which, contrary to what people who have never played Survivor in their life might thinkEven in a four man SWF this isn't as easy to pull off as likes to be imagined. The protecting survivor has to time when to come over correctly. If they come too early they might protect the target, but they aren't buying the valuable time needed to do gens, if they come too late they waste the time trying to go for the protection hit. Now if the killer is just camping / tunneling off the hook the counter is easier, but such simplistic playstyles should have easy counters.
Like really think about that, if you're running a build designed to get you healed up quickly and get repeated protection hits, you're probably not going to be on gens, you're going to be in a corner healing, running to teammates for heals, or be in the killer's face going for a body-block.I think this point gets missed a lot and is what more broadly termed as opportunity costs. What did you give up to have this thing? An exhaustion perk, faster gens, faster heal, your own anti-tunnel, a different type of anti-tunnel support?
Lots of detraction on perks like this imagine that they get constant value. It would be like if survivors complained about Devour Hope on the presumption that it always gets its stacks and is never cleansed.
Duty of Care seems fine. It lets the survivor do one thing that frequently won't even come up in the match really well, but in doing so has a number of risks/costs associated with it. Sounds fine.
I said this when Shoulder The Burden released and consequently fell into near irrelevancy less then a month laterI think the reason some perks get complained about a lot more than others is killers see them deployed. If survivors are using faster gens or faster healing, it isn't as noticeable unless its like an extreme gen rush squad. It happens away from the killer's screen. But there seems to be a lot more rage at perks like say DH or Shoulder where it is noticeable to the killer that the perk was used against them.
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Funny this comes up. Scott Jund made a video on it about ten days ago looking at the killers who have overall been buffed vs nerfed and showing its usually more buffed.
Killers, perks (survivor and killer) are going to get adjusted after release. With killers sometimes its a mix of things, sometimes it is in one direction because the killer is either too weak/strong, but there's no evidence there is an overall strategy to release overpowered killers to 'grab money' and nerf them. The game would have died off long ago if that was true.
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Haste/hindered is a completely different thing than something like healing.
Healing already has built in problems with stacking.
Buff it a 100%, save 8 seconds.
Buff it another hundred percent (200%), you only save 2.7 seconds.
The next 100% (300% total) only saves 1.3 seconds.
The next 100% (400% increase) only saves 0.8 seconds.
If they are to put a hard cap on it, it would be really high, and that is just to present theoretical stacking limits were multiple survivors could dedicate their entire builds to try and get a heal of a survivor before the killer could even recover. But the way each additional increase has less of an effect means this would be a very high number.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3913065#Comment_3913065
Putting aside the streamer's personality/complaints/etc, the main thing I took away was how fast the gens got done, and how his comeback was entirely caused by overzealous plays on the survivor side. He was even content with a 2k when the snowball started. Balance discussions aside, I absolutely get the frustration aspect of what he's saying, especially knowing that a more meta perk selection (or killer) would have given him a better chance at a more meaningful match (win or lose.) His game sense was not poor, he was doing things like recognizing when gens would pop and was making decisions like hooking the one survivor when he knew the others were down and healing across the map, so I don't think his macro play is especially poor (aside from the limitations of clown and his perks ofc.)
Regarding the basekit combacks/protections, regardless of which one each of us thinks applies, I think the bigger point he was making is that there are a lot of issues on the killer side that are on the same level as BT was before it became basekit: Gen perks feel that necessary because of the speed of matches like this, and it feels as necessary at higher level as BT felt before it got made basekit. Thats part of the issue with the pandora's box that got opened with basekit mechanics/buffs like that and the timer ones: It validates a lot of whataboutism, and makes issues feel particularly ignored when not addressed in a similarly impactful way.
I couldn't even finish the video, but I made sure to watch the entire match to get why he felt the need to make the video, and his frustration is valid. He could absolutely let it not get to him, but I can't imagine this kind of game being rare when you main clown for that many hours, especially if you're willing to divert from his meta.
I think the bigger point he was making is that there are a lot of issues on the killer side that are on the same level as BT was before it became basekit: Gen perks feel that necessary because of the speed of matches like this, and it feels as necessary at higher level as BT felt before it got made basekit.Gen perks are reliable, the other perks he picked are situational. This is an element on both sides of the game, some perks are incredibly strong if you get in the right situation.
In this match the survivors brought multiple anti-tunnel perks, probably because they felt they had to, and I don't think they got value out of any of them. Likewise he brought Superior Anatomy, but got a map without any key window vaults and only one of the survivors looked like they had a chase build. If either of those were different something like Superior Anatomy could have been really powerful.
He also got a fair bit of value out of Coup, if he had gen regression perks than that some of his chases last longer, potentially giving him an even worse outcome.
I couldn't even finish the video, but I made sure to watch the entire match to get why he felt the need to make the video, and his frustration is valid.I don't get what there is to be frustrated about or how this video in any way looks like evidence of a problem. He played well, they played well, it was a close match that swung on a couple of variables. That really feels like how you should want a game to play out which is why in reviewing it so many of his complaints sound like 'I want to stomp the survivors'.
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@DeBecker said:
Here we go again showing one match and generalize it in a way thats just not telling the whole truth.
Thing is, its not even that. I was really expecting a match where multiple things didn't go the killers way or that these survivors just played an absolutely perfect match and we were cherry picking.
But its not. The survivors play fine, the killer plays fine, and its a competitive match. It potentially could have swung in the survivors direction if a few more things swung their way, and it could have been a 4k if a few more things went the killer's way. For being a 'high MMR analysis' its shockingly unremarkable.
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It's basically a meme at this point.
Killer is hard, now watch this video of a killer winning the game with a lower tier killer and less sweaty build to prove my point.
If at high MMR a SWF can run a sweaty build and a lower tier killer running a less sweaty build still wins, then the game is clearly killer sided.
Anyway, decided to make comments as I go through the video. Watched the whole thing, lots of comments
Running less sweaty builds as killer makes the game harder - this is true on the survivor side as well. This also has nothing to do with the MMR level. His section on 'balance feels slated towards meta builds' is a statement that applies to any game.
His talk on how many hours he has in the game sounds very weirdly entitled. It was extremely off putting.
Early game is very important for both sides and all MMR levels. Whether that is good or not or how it can be changed is a different question.
It's not a fun win if I win - then don't play this way if you don't like the challenge. But again, he won, so killers are going to complain even if they win because they didn't win easily enough I guess.
'If I didn't have to work so hard' - what do people want high MMR to be? Do you think the survivors who got here aren't working hard?
Last comment before the match 'the match played out the way that it did' - this relates to the if killer makes 1 to 2 mistakes argument, but seems to presume that the survivors play perfectly. As he says he is human and will make mistakes. Absolutely true, but so are the survivors. They'll make mistakes too, which side makes less mistakes, wins. That's how a lot of games function.
The match
He makes a mistake early on of running over to shack, not sure why.
90 seconds in he abandons a chase because of a syringe. I don't think he's destroyed any pallets, but he probably doesn't need to because of Coup and bottles
Has a couple of misses on the swings
—being I already know he is going to win I can't believe this video is being used as evidence of killer struggles at high MMR.
2:35 into the first chase he gets his first down. Only 1 gen has popped, though two pop not soon after. Seems completely reasonable.
Also gets the down because of Coup, if he had a gen regression perk in that slot would not have gotten a down.
Being extremely negative in his chat, no idea why. Complains about it not being engaging, despite the fact he's just been in multiple chases. Not sure what he wants other than an easy win.
'Where are the base kit comeback mechanics for killer' - this is actually getting silly to listen to, he's going to win. But he's been negative about the game from the start, not surprising he might not be playing his best.
What he's talking about on the survivor side aren't basekit comeback. A basekit comeback would be something like increased gen speeds like exists in 2v8. Killers have, and have always have had, the best basekit comeback, the area that the survivors can attack (the gens), shrinks, making the chases/defense easier.
Second down, gets more value from Coup.
'Can't start a chase with anyone because they pre-run' - literally has gotten hits on people because they waited to long to run.
Gets even more value out of coup by going around a body block.
We get multiple complaints about dead hard even though dead hard hasn't been successfully used.
End of match - survivors could have gotten a 2 out, they try for 3, end up only getting 1. It's kind of boring for everyone as he secures the kills, but nothing unique about it.
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After match
'Did it really seem like I was having fun' - no, but it felt like he was negative from the absolute beginning of the match. This seemed to be someone playing DbD who hates DbD.
'Imagine if Jeff had adrenaline, or if Sable got value out of Shoulder the Burden' - he's ridiculously missing the point here. They didn't, that's part of the issue of survivor perks. Killers act like they are easy to deploy or guarantee value from, but they aren't. Yeah, if they got value they would have done better, and if he hadn't got value from Coup for three downs the survivors would have done better.
'Imagine if I chose to camp/tunnel her' - imagine if I played it wrong instead of right. Well, it wouldn't have gone as well for you. We can through every element of the match and imagine better or worse set ups on both sides.
'If I commit this chase I lose the game' - potentially, but the point is, he didn't. There's no rule that a killer has to commit to a chase and he exhibited that you don't have to. The survivor has burned through their most resource, that's valuable for the killer.
He's really harping on the strength of this item. It definitely is, survivors and killers both have sweaty builds, but if this hadn't been the first survivor targeted it wouldn't have been as huge a deal, or if it had been a different killer who could either catch up before the syringe worked, or if a killer like Plague who could just make it irrelevant. Survivors don't know the killer they are going to face, sometimes their perks / items come in clutch, sometimes they don't.
Seems to be falling into a common issue about killer mobility. Yes, its a really strong power. However, with his build he was able to get downs quickly and was able to defend the top portion of the map limiting the area survivors could work with. Having gens be completed is not a loss for the killer, a loss for the killer is the survivor escaping.
—this goes to a common theme that killers not only want to win, but want to regularly win with only 1 to 2 gens being done In an even match you should expect at a minimum, all of the gens to be complete, it should be coming down to the end game.
He goes into what would have happened if Mikaela hadn't had the syringe, which really makes it sound like 'I would have crushed the survivors'. Which makes the syringe sound absolutely fine, because survivors aren't there to just be crushed.
Couple of 'micro mistakes I made' - what mistakes did the survivors make to justify the killer getting a 3k? (we're also in contradictory territory arguing this is high MMR were survivors don't make mistakes and also saying the survivor made massive mistakes)
Talks about it not feeling good to get one or two kills and playing to win. That's fine, but there needs to be some understanding that the other side is trying to win and sometimes will. I'm sure it didn't feel good as the survivors to play a relatively solid match and still get 3ked, its completely one sided on the feeling argument.
We get to complaining about DH except he already exhibited how he countered it by having hit him early and in the match he showed how he predicted DH and waited it out. He's complaining about a perk at multiple points that got no value and he counterplayed.
We're now getting into more hypothetical scenarios, but this is so one sided. What if it had been a different killer? What if it had been a different build? What if he had made a different play as killer that had worked better. We don't have the survivor perspective where they could make the same complaints.
'One use of DH could have lost me this game' - if we go back to the beginning of the match where he misses a couple of those swings, if he hits those survivors probably never even get to this point. He only wants to discuss ways it could have gone better for survivor while ignoring the moments it could have gone in his direction.
Game being uphill when running lower tier killers and non-sweaty builds - what does he expect? Again, this is absolutely the exact same on the survivor side if people throw on a 'fun' build.
Talks about making the mistake to queue up, sounds like he's burned out. That's fine and completely normal.
Talks about wanting to run fun builds. He ran one and won, if he hadn't had such a negative attitude the whole match he probably would have actually enjoyed pulling off those Coup hits. You can't however simultaneously want to win, not want a challenge, and to run any build in the game (true for both sides)
Back to 'I'm going to make mistakes'. Again, absolutely. But his mistakes are 'micro' issues, while the survivor mistakes are 'throwing'. Presumes far easier decision making on the part of survivors than is true.
'Basekit this, basekit that' - just wrong. Presumes some kind of starting point where the game was at a perfect point and working off that.
"The sore winner mindset" - I literally laughed out loud at this. This is a 30 minute video of him being a sore winner.
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Overall
I've never watched any of this guys video before, and I obviously have no knowledge of what he's like in person, but this video isn't the best showing for him. He's angry/swearing the whole match, negative from the beginning, and in his analysis is always imagining hypotheticals in the worst possible case scenario for him, without considering the same for the survivors. It seems to really meet the idea that killers just want survivors to start on hook.
As for it being high MMR, nothing about this match seems particularly unusual despite some killer assumptions that we're all getting radically different matches. Lots of things that get labeled 'high MMR' are actually pretty ubiquitous.
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Looks like a collision bug.
Not a coding expert by any means but what I think happened is two objects tried to exist in the same place (you and the ghoul). So it tries to move the object (the ghoul) to a nearby available space, however because that space is occupied (by the pallet) it tries to move to another space, which is also occupied, so it starts juggling the object back and forth looking for an open space (creating the weird visual).
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@Waynesl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3911871#Comment_3911871
Apparently if you pair this and overcome it becomes a free escape too for everybody I think it should only affect unhooked or injured survivors only cause 25% haste for 6 seconds is kinda nuts cause that is an entire map worth of distance
So if a survivor brings two perks, makes it to end game, is not the one on hook, is against a non-insta down killer, is against a killer without high map mobility, has another survivor still alive to take the first hit, then they can escape.
It feels like the investment for that particular circumstance is fine.
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@LockerLurk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3911949#Comment_3911949
I think these perks are very niche but ok if buffed slightly. I really think it's OK to encourage OTHER builds. I actually think more perks should be niche like this and it looks like BHVR agrees.
I actually think more perks should be niche like this and it looks like BHVR agrees.This is a guess on my part, but I think with how many perks there are we're at a point where many new perks won't change the game, but will be modifications of things that can exist. Like: here's another slightly different way to boost healing, here's another way to do anti-tunnel, etc. Maybe they'll surprise me, but I'm not sure how many more perks that feel unique there can be.
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If this resulted in a reevaluation of some perks I guess I could see it, but I don't think its really an issue.
The difference though is there is a direct competition in the haste/hindered issue, killer speed vs survivor speed. If the survivor speed increases too much, killer can't catch them, if the hindered increases too much survivors really have no actions to take.
It doesn't work the same way for gens. Each slowdown perk gets less value, and each stacked gen increase speed just yields the same benefit (i.e. if Deja is worth a perk slot for 0.06 charges a second, and Resi is worth a perk slot for 0.09 charges a second, what's wrong with two perk slots for 0.15 charges a second?). This isn't like the speed issue where at certain break points the game becomes unplayable.
Investing multiple perk slots toward a certain strategy is not inherently a problem unless it breaks an aspect of the game.
Also, I don't think there are nearly as many issues. The problem with gen speed if too fast is usually toolboxes, which this wouldn't really address at all, and many of the slowdown perks on the killer side have been nerfed (i.e. the upcoming penti) making them more reasonable.
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Going against some of the comments in my thoughts
Do No Harm - Seems fine. Compared to We'll Make It, I can see this being nice for situations where someone else gets the unhook, or you are healing someone who has been hooked but not the target (they took a protection hit, got slugged, etc.). It's not going to radically alter the game or anything.
Duty of Care - Yeah, its easier for SWFs to take protection hits, not impossible for soloq though, and everything is easier for SWFs. It's another way survivors can go for anti-tunnel protection.
Rapid Response - The fast locker exit just seems to create confusion about what the perk does. 2 seconds of aura reading off something like dramaturgy would be nice, but not amazing.
Basically nothing seems broken, a few of them could use minor buffs, but they all have some use.
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Going through the list
1: Hype - while I can imagine it being interesting if suddenly a new killer just dropped, I feel like when the PTB looks good it builds excitement for the game.
2: Limitations - PTB is looking for big things. Major bugs, game breaking combinations, etc. A lot of feedback doesn't get taken because BHVR's internal testing/feedback didn't have a problem with whatever the complaint is.
Also removing the PTB would just worsen the idea of feedback not getting heard as there would be none of it.
As for downloading them being annoying, you don't have to touch it if you don't want to. I do a PTB occasionally, but I never feel an obligation to download it.
3: Pointless - Things are only pointless if there isn't a problem, you don't know for certain there isn't a problem until a PTB is run.
4: Resources - Having a deadline before the full game release is not a bad thing, versions would be getting built even if there was no PTB. As for PTB servers, running it through Steam is not supposed to be that difficult and not sure if it would increase server expenses in any substantial way.
4 again: Feedback - kind of a repeat of number 2.
5: Matchmaking - as mentioned already, I've never noticed any real difference in the normal queues. As for the matchmaking being bac in the PTB, you don't have to download it if you don't want.
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@zarr said:
I would like for people to showcase exactly where Balanced Landing creates actual infinites, with a killer trying to catch them. Even a pure M1 killer, no chase ability. You take a friend, go into a custom match, and it should be easy to demonstrate, doesn't take more than 5-10 minutes out of your day.
I'm not saying there doesn't exist at least one such setup, nor am I saying bugged BL is fine if it doesn't create literal infinites, but I just don't enjoy how posters on these forums always claim things without backing them up one bit. The general spirit is one of a lot of yappening and not a lot of happening.
These days, with most elevated vaults having openings close by, as well as today's Bloodlust and Entity Blocker specifics, I struggle to see what could possibly make for an actual infinite. And again, that's not even talking about all the killer abilities that would completely negate that anyway. Maybe Saloon main building, and perhaps some path around Disturbed Ward's main that uses the holes in the upper floor? But then you also need to account for the ability to keep out of chase state.
But to stress this again: BL doesn't need to create a situation where a killer (and even if it's only one without a potent chase ability) literally cannot catch a survivor to be problematic. It suffices if it makes a bunch of setups stronger than is reasonable, which I do think is the case. I don't think the perk in its current bugged state is nearly as gamebreaking as it is being made out to, I in fact do not believe it is gamebreaking at all. But something doesn't have to literally break a game to be problematic.
The fix for this should be incredibly easy for BHVR to implement, but if they really cannot do so within the week, sure, killswitch it. Although they for some strange reason are awfully reluctant to engage their killswitch, despite it being designed for precisely such cases. It's as if using it takes more effort than they're willing to exert too, which would make it a flawed implementation.
Anyway, I will use this opportunity and post to talk about Balanced Landing in general, and its need for a buff:
Exhaustion perks are always competing for slots with other Exhaustion perks because they cannot be used alongside one another effectively or at all. This means that if some of them are (more or less) objectively worse than others, they are objectively not worth using because you'd obviously want to just use those others instead.
BL suffers from this issue, and arguably more so than any of the other Exhaustion perks. For starters, it is more conditional than all of the others, because the ability to activate the perk at all depends on the map, and the opportunities to fall off an appropriately steep height are limited on most maps, with some maps barely having any opportunities at all. Compare this to Lithe or Smash Hit, the next-most conditional Exhaustion perks, yet still infinitely more accessible than BL. This not only makes it much less reliable in chases, it also further limits the ability to get value from the perk in other game situations, be it just to traverse distances a bit faster or to set up for rescue plays and such.
Then there's the fact that BL is more telegraphed than any of the other Exhaustion perks, because you regularly have to run to places a survivor would have no business running to in a chase if they weren't using BL. This opens up counterplay opportunities for the killer where they can try and zone or intercept the BL, undermining its impact.
Next, there's the fact that BL doesn't even reduce the stagger by 100% - there's still a bit of stagger left (25%) and this eats into its 3-second, 150% sprint, reducing the distance you make with it in a way no other Exhaustion perk suffers from. It also allows killers to often hit the survivor during the stagger still.
In the case of Smash Hit BHVR made the concession to increase its sprint duration to account for the time you spend locked into the pallet drop animation. And then they also reduced its Exhaustion timer as a concession to its conditional trigger. BL on the other hand got none of these concessions, it's a dated design that should have long been reconsidered on.
I would go further and say Exhaustion perks in general show signs of age and given their almost incomparable impact potential on the game of DbD as well as their unique trait of being in contention with one another, a more holistic overhaul would be appropriate, or at least an overall rebalancing.
Another thing of pertinence here is that BHVR around a year and a half ago (again) removed the ability to vault windows and pallets during fall stagger. While that was a fairly reasonable adjustment (albeit there could have been other, perhaps better solutions), what wasn't reasonable was them - in what I assume was a ham-handed bandaid fix - alongside this adjustment also removing the ability to do much of anything else during fall stagger, including healing, unhooking, jumping into hatch, and on. This was an undocumented and wholly uncalled-for shadow nerf that is relevant more often than you'd think. And again, I don't think this was even intended or deemed beneficial, I think it was simply that BHVR couldn't figure out (or didn't want to spend the time and effort figuring out) how to only stop survivors from vaulting during stagger, and so they went ahead and simply made most of all actions impossible. This is another reason to look into "stagger" rebalancing, both in relation to BL and in general.
But without going into all that, I will propose a few adjustments for BL that I think are completely reasonable (I'm not suggesting all of these should be implemented):
At the very very least, its stagger reduction should be back to 100%.
The noise suppression should not be on a cooldown.
Its sprint duration could be increased to 4 seconds.
Perhaps reduce its Exhaustion timer to 20 seconds.
The stagger reduction could be on a separate, independent cooldown, of say 30 seconds (although then perhaps keeping the 75% reduction amount).
Alternatively, make BL a non-Exhaustion perk and simply have it suppress falling noises and reduce the stagger by 100%, on a 20-or-so-second cooldown.
Anyway, I will use this opportunity and post to talk about Balanced Landing in general, and its need for a buff:When I saw your post I was wondering how even Zarr was going to talk for 13+ paragraphs on a bug.
A few thoughts:
This means that if some of them are (more or less) objectively worse than others, they are objectively not worth using because you'd obviously want to just use those others instead.So in a game where there is a lot of moments that I go 'why BHVR?', I think the way exhaustion perks work is a solid design. Each exhaustion perk has pros and cons compared to the others. Some of them could use a few more pros, but the idea of 'pick 1 and no more than 1' is a good limiter on creating a category of perks.
For starters, it is more conditional than all of the others, because the ability to activate the perk at all depends on the map, and the opportunities to fall off an appropriately steep height are limited on most maps, with some maps barely having any opportunities at all. Compare this to Lithe or Smash Hit, the next-most conditional Exhaustion perks, yet still infinitely more accessible than BL.I'm not going to be a huge defender of balanced landing, but there is one counter point to this.
Lithe especially can activate when its not the best time for it. If you're at a strong loop you might want to hit the window a few times before you get exhaustion and run away, Lithe will trigger before you can get all the value out of the loop. Balanced has less places to use, which is a huge drawback, but can be controlled a bit more when it occurs.
At the very very least, its stagger reduction should be back to 100%.The noise suppression should not be on a cooldown.Its sprint duration could be increased to 4 seconds.Perhaps reduce its Exhaustion timer to 20 seconds.Two or three of those would probably be helpful. I think it would be a good idea for BHVR to look at the exhaustion timer on the various exhaustion perks as a subtle way of boosting the weaker perks.
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@WeaverReaver42 said:
It's funny how everyone in this post is acting like I am against improvement to solo queue.
I don't recall where I implied solo queue isn't awful in this post?
Don't get me wrong, it isn't mentioned enough how the SURVIVOR'S BEHAVIORS are the major problem plaguing solo queue, however there is still room for improvement on the dev side of things (especially in terms of punishing people for throwing and giving up).
I have been playing solo queue survivor, I have SEEN how easily most of you give up and actively throw in one way or another. The reason I hate survivor isn't the gameplay, I actually LIKE playing survivor. It's just on average survivors suck far worse than is reasonable, assuming they aren't actively sabotaging. Solo queue isn't the problem, we just aren't willing to admit that the survivor half of the community sucks FAR MORE than people are willing to admit (in terms of skill, and with how they treat each other). I would love to play both sides, but the other people ON MY TEAM make the experience less fun- forcing me to the killer role.
Yes, fix solo queue- I never said otherwise and acting like I did is being disingenuous. However, there is a very obvious trend for survivors to not at all question how they personally can improve at the game.
News flash: You don't need to escape to rise in ranks. It's just the EASIEST way to do that. Saving survivors? Repairing gens? Touching Totems? Looping the killer? ALL of those can get your match rank up. It's about being GOOD ENOUGH at all of those to pull your weight. Most of you struggle to do more than repair gens and unhook other survivors- if that. How can we expect solo queue being better to solve your problems when you can't even play the game properly?
Solo queue isn't the problem, we just aren't willing to admit that the survivor half of the community sucks FAR MORE than people are willing to admitWe all own the same game. For your hypothesis to be true, why is it that the players which 'suck' are attracted to the survivor side, even as that side gets decimated.
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@SomeGuy1246 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3910444#Comment_3910444
There is a need to introduce a system that considers team players and solo players separately.Based, based, based, based. These JP players can't stop being based. 🗿
Outside of how good they actually are, they seem unfathomably based and lucid about this game I like it.
Based, based, based, based. These JP players can't stop being based.It's one of those ideas where everyone likes the actual concept, but all of the ideas I've ever seen for implementing such an idea would probably be severely damaging to the game and/or player numbers.
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@Bodark said:
The Japanese/ Asia region player base is much more skilled than the NA player base. For example I see most players in the Asia region rank Huntress at B or even C Tier meanwhile NA players put her at high A Tier. Only our best players like comp players and big content creators actually rank her at B Tier.
But yes NA is much more focused on fun. Survivors get very angry when killers try to win. You will be constantly berated for tunneling, slugging or camping. People will report you and insult you for these things. I believe the vast majority of NAs player base aren’t real gamers but rather casual players.
Only our best players like comp players and big content creators actually rank her at B Tier.Do you have cite for comp dropping her down to B tier? Because the last time I could find a list she was played was the Spring Invitational she was tier 2 (A tier). In the most recent season of DBDL she was not an option.
@SomeGuy1246 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3910204#Comment_3910204
For example I see most players in the Asia region rank Huntress at B or even C Tier meanwhile NA players put her at high A Tier. Only our best players like comp players and big content creators actually rank her at B Tier.I think a lot has to do with the fact that people in NA-EU actually rank out of their own experiences which is soloQ. And soloQ doesn't reflect a comp game or 4 good survivors playing. Imo a lot of it has to do with the matchmaking that was already mentioned above, and the fact that a lot of objectively not great killers can however punish survivors mistakes so hard you only really need 1 clueless survivor to bring down an entire team. A lot of players are talking in soloQ tier list, not objective max potential tier list because it doesn't concern them.
V1 (comp player) basically acknowledges wraith tier is mid but in pub is A tier. OhTofu I think ranked hag one of the lowest but in pubs said he could make it work to have A tier results against most lobbies. So really pubs and objective tier lists are different tier lists.
In Asia, if everyone is basically playing comp, it makes sense why they would have a more accurate representation. If you can't expect someone to make a mistake for you to snowball, then you truly see even in pubs how good a killer is in average.
But yes NA is much more focused on fun. Survivors get very angry when killers try to win. You will be constantly berated for tunneling, slugging or camping. People will report you and insult you for these things. I believe the vast majority of NAs player base aren’t real gamers but rather casual players.The problem with these complaining people is that they often play meta perks themselves and are obviously playing for the results and I never see an actual memer with goofy perks complain in post game chat. It sound like a very diplomatic way to say that a lot more NA-EU survivors can't handle the fact that tunneling, slugging, and camping may actually be good strategies to win.
A lot of players are talking in soloQ tier list, not objective max potential tier list because it doesn't concern them.This kind of disagrees with what you said in an earlier post about Singularity. Do we rank Singularity on how most people are able to play him, or the max potential that can be achieved
@SomeGuy1246 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3910240#Comment_3910240
I will not pretend I can say for sure globally.
But in comp setting. The Japanese comp scene is more immature and it sounds odd to me to hear everyone in Japan is a massive comp tryhard yet their comp scene are getting stomped by China (C Dragons in dbdasia while C Dragons are still arguably a bit weaker than EU top teams by their recent performance in v1v4 tourney). And really are nowhere close to hold up to Asia and NA-EU in standard comp settings. Until now, I have only seen good JP comp showings on super specific ruleset no one plays except themselves. Not that they are bad from what I have seen. But I would never bet ever any Japanese team could beat any top NA-EU team like Nokron, Invictus, Elysium, x9... anytime soon while CDragon (China) I think with a bit of adaptation to ping differences and a bit more practice I could see them compete with NA-EU top team.
It feels like cognitive dissonance that "Japanese lobbies are stronger and sweatier" yet ⇒ "JP comp teams aren't that impressive". It could be true but idk how tbh.
The Japanese comp scene is more immature and it sounds odd to me to hear everyone in Japan is a massive comp tryhard yet their comp scene are getting stomped by ChinaI might be repeating something I said in an earlier comment to you, but that's because comp and pubs are completely different things. Try harding is a lot different than comp.
Their soloq, based off what I've watched, is considerably better than what you are going to run into in NA/EU.
No reason that should translate to their comp skills. You could put 20k hours into DbD pubs and its still not going to prepare you for a comp matchup as survivor (probably not as killer either).
But I would never bet ever any Japanese team could beat any top NA-EU team like Nokron, Invictus, Elysium, x9The first question would be what is the ruleset? Like there are killers / maps that comp teams depending on their region never even touch because they are unused.
The second point on comp is that no one really stands a chance against any of the top comp teams. It's basically been Elysium, Eternal, X9 and a couple of others winning/finaling tournaments for a while. The disparate difference in skill levels can make watching those early rounds of a tournament really boring.
Out of the millions of players of the game, I don't think where the best 10 or so players happen to be located is that reflective of the skill level you would see in a normal match.
@WeaverReaver42 said:
I haven't played in JP servers, but it strikes me as odd how antithetical the approach they are doing sounds.
In Rivals (you know what I am referring to) the asian servers are doing much better at teamwork, giving them an advantage compared to Western servers.
Yet self-care is indicative of a fundamental misunderstanding on the survivor side in asian servers for this game.
The time spent using self care is EXPONENTIALLY greater than having someone heal you- especially if they use perks that make healing others faster. It is often said in NA servers that self care is actively a throw pick when you use it.
Generators don't actually get done faster, because there are less consistently 4 survivors working on generators. The faster you heal, the faster you start repairing again. Especially since you often will be injured more than once in a match.
Killers need to force you to waste time and resources through the match, meaning the start of the match is where survivors are at their strongest. Leaving survivors to deal with their own issues later in the match is asking for a weak link to appear and to give the killer an opportunity to steamroll as the match goes on.
Survivors have a 4-1 numbers advantage on killer, yet it sounds like they don't utilize it by allowing a team to multitask and get multiple things done at once. If you have healed a survivor, now both of you can also move on to doing something else useful in the area with the time that survivor saved being healed by someone else instead of with self care alone.
There are multiple perks that benefit you for working as a team, and they can be very powerful. Survivor DBD is a team game, and playing it that way gives you a better chance at winning- but only if everyone is doing so.
Yet self-care is indicative of a fundamental misunderstanding on the survivor side in asian servers for this game.The time spent using self care is EXPONENTIALLY greater than having someone heal you- especially if they use perks that make healing others faster. It is often said in NA servers that self care is actively a throw pick when you use it.It really depends on how others play and how you use it.
Its not that survivors on the Asian servers always self care. They use the perk situationally. If the killer isn't pressuring, they'll still heal in what we would consider a 'normal' manner (they also bring botany to support the self care, so the heals can be quicker).
But what if the killer tunnels? Well you are going to run away from the hook and the gens and now every second the person who wants to heal you is chasing after you is a second they aren't on gens. And if you run away and no one follows you, but the killer decides to go back and play defense, well now you have no heal.
What if the killer interrupts the heal? That's the time of two survivors wasted and potentially both of them are now injured. Being spread out is generally to the survivors benefit.
It's also a lot easier to 99 a self care and do gens faster with resilience, or hold that 99 to keep info from the killer.
Additionally they use it interestingly when gens are finished. They'll pressure the final gen while injured, and then split up away from gates to get healed. Now it doesn't matter how long the heal takes, but once you're healed against most killers you can waltz out an open door without many concerns.
I've never understood why they don't just load up on a med-kit to do this, but self-care is the norm and they tend to finish gens incredibly fast.
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@daikaimon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3910000#Comment_3910000
You are right, the matchmaking system should indeed be modified.
The opaqueness of the current system is often talked about in Japan, to the point that it is sometimes wickedly controversial and controversial.
There is also a lot of negativity in Japan about the drastic weakening of the system against killers, which has been done frequently for some time.
What is the thinking in North America and elsewhere regarding the weakening of killers?
What is the thinking in North America and elsewhere regarding the weakening of killers?While there is of course some disagreement, the general view is that the game is/was too heavily tilted in the favor of killers and that some of the tactics they could employ (i.e. standing right in front of the hook) where/are exceptionally boring.