crogers271
crogers271
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3927974#Comment_3927974
Maybe it’s because the slugging abandon was mimicking getting bleed out on the ground, and maybe bleed outs are worth 0 MMR because the survivor didn’t get sacrificed or escaped?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3927987#Comment_3927987
By that logic, the survivor abandon button should be evaluated for things like
- Is there a hooked survivor with deliverance?
- Is there a hooked survivor that otherwise might self unhook?
- Is there a slugged survivor with unbreakable?
- Is there a slugged survivor, and a lit exponential?
- Is there a slugged survivor and an open exit gate?
- Is there a slugged survivor and an open hatch?
Certainly with #1 and #3, the game shouldn’t be considered over, and the survivor abandon button should be taken away.The abandon system should exist either for situations were the chance for any additional kills/escape is incredibly smallSo that was from my post. Note the use of 'incredibly small'. I didn't say 0. When you say 'by that logic' you're confusing the difference between something with an extremely small chance of success and an absolute.
The chance that a survivor has unbreakable/deliverance/etc, can use it when all other survivors are dead/hooked/slugged, and still have a survivor achieve an escape is incredibly small. Statistically insignificant.
The chance that a killer with gates open can still gain kills isn't incredibly small, its pretty normal for it to occur.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3927936#Comment_3927936
The strawman is assuming the survivors will always be waiting at the exit gates, and therefore it’s quick and easy to force them out of the exit gates.
The problem with the strawman argument is people are saying it’s ok the killer doesn’t get the abandon button, specifically because they can quickly force the survivors out of the exit gates.
The argument people should be talking about are survivors that purposely hide during the EGC, because there isn’t a quick way to force them out the exit gates. And it’s not even realistic for the killer to find all the hidden survivors (that might be hiding in different places), and force them all out of the exit gates.
The argument people should be talking about are survivors that purposely hide during the EGC, because there isn’t a quick way to force them out the exit gates.I'll start by saying that I think the killer should get an abandon option with the gate open, perhaps with a few conditions.
The problem with this argument though is that the trial is still going on. The abandon system should exist either for situations were the chance for any additional kills/escape is incredibly small (all survivors slugged) or the game has broken down (survivors just in complete hide mode for 10+ minutes, and that version still needs work).
If the survivor is hiding in the map, the killer might still kill them. This is really different than the survivors standing just on the cusp of the exit t-bagging.
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My most common build is: Deja, Botany, Off the Record, and Kindred
It gives me a little bit of everything.
In terms of enjoyment, I like running: Deja, Blast Mine, Wiretap and then anything else. I like to try and set up the blast mine / wiretap on a central gen which can be incredibly useful.
Also enjoy going full boon, but that doesn't have nearly as much success.
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@Shroompy said:
I don't think a multiplayer game should have that, the difficulty is supposed to be the skill level of your opponents. If you are truly in that uber elite group, you can self impose challenges.
Would this not be considered a self imposed challenge?
No, because of the rewards. Its something that starting players would have a huge reason to do (more bloodpoints), which throws off the balance of the game. Self imposed challenges should be just that, a challenge to yourself, no reward or encouragement from the game design.
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Yes, killers should be able to leave when gates are opened.
Are gates being opened quite as 'game ending' as all the survivors being down? Not really, I still think they should be able to leave the game, but a 15 to 30 second delay here would make sense.
There is a more practical problem in that having a bot take over the killer is more difficult than a bot taking over a survivor.
Reading through the thread, it is clear that BHVR's 'let's clear up what is going on with win/losses with the abandon system' just caused huge levels of confusion.
@ChuckingWong said:
Egh…when posters try to assume others MMR. Especially when you never get to see these people's play in any format its just like…
what are we doing here?
You are just assuming only you has high MMR experience, let alone are even high mmr to begin with, and then just assume that others arent.
It really just leaves their argument on grandstanding with nothing factual behind it.
Noone here, including me, knows their MMR.
Its like trying to appeal to authority, but the authority is themselves.They're funny discussions.
In the post you're referencing, the killer is somehow chasing a survivor who is doing nothing but running straight for 35.93 (20.65+17.98-2.7) seconds. That means the killer covered 165.278 meters. The only way this is possible is if at high MMR the maps become Pac-Man style maps where the survivors can loop from one side to the other.
It's one of the math errors that comes up on the thread, presuming survivors just have infinite distance on the maps (not to mention no obstacles).
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@OPXtreme_ttv said:
So before all 3 of these perks were changed in the Houndmaster's release, my favorite build to run was; Beast of Prey, Distressing, Hex:TOTH, and Hex: Undying.
If you're knowledgeable enough, then you guessed why I liked to use these, the extra BP! And boy did this build really make a difference, I could make up to 60K BP with no offerings and add ons in effect (Deviousness and Hunter were doubled from the perks).
Personally, I never really liked the idea of running perks because you needed to to win most games, and I really don't, I had already been consistently 4King on all killers with this build. So I thought about it, what if you got rewarded more for essentially playing the game on Hard Mode? (This includes survivors too) Kinda like what No Mither does to survivors, but that has no post match reward.
How it would work is, the less perk slots you use, the more BP Percentage boost would be applied to your upcoming match. Preferably in intervals of 25%, I think thats a fair increase for something permanent.
Anyways, thoughts?
I'm a firm no one this, though I understand lots of people like this design. It's one of the things that turned me off from the game when it first released and why I didn't get into it until post 6.1 as a lot of the more extreme elements (instant gens) were taken out.
Basically, I don't think DbD should have a difficulty slider for a few reasons:
1: I don't think a multiplayer game should have that, the difficulty is supposed to be the skill level of your opponents. If you are truly in that uber elite group, you can self impose challenges.
2: It creates an idea about what the 'right way' to play is. Four syringes, Nurse, other examples of sweatiness, are bad, toxic, and 'abusive'.
3: It also means winning against an underperforming group doesn't mean much. I remember when I was really new hitting a Trapper running the padded jaws add on. My reaction was basically 'oh, so this game doesn't count'.
My comparison to this is handicaps in sports. If you were playing basketball and the other team got to start up 10 points, well if you lost by 8, did it really feel like you lost? And if you won it might feel great for you, but it can feel insulting to the other side (this is especially true in a asym game like DbD where there are strong feelings on which role has the advantage, if the killer or SWF intentionally takes weaker perks and still wins, its not an expression of skill in the mind of the loser, it shows how one sided the game design is).
All that said, the difficulty slider is a part of DbD and I think just taking fewer perks for a BP reward would be a better way to accomplish it if it had to be done, though I'd prefer it not to occur at all.
Here's an example of something I said back in 2023
Add-ons and offerings. These feel like built in cheats. Survivors can run a gen rush build against a base kit killer. Killers can push to a map that advantages them against a group of survivors bringing zero items. If survivors/killers match up on what they bring, great, but otherwise it feels like one side got access to a difficulty slider.That's still my feeling. If the sides don't match up in the right level of sweatiness / the difficulty slider, fine, but otherwise the trial doesn't feel right.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3926689#Comment_3926689
thanks for clarification, my bad in this case. Now this would make it interesting for BHVR to push some stats like this one and makes their chase time detection mechanic come under great question mark. Does shift teching count as end of chase timer BHVR uses for stat? Or any kind of chase cut by other factors than specifically downs and then starting again
It would be an interesting question, but I also think impossible to answer.
I will say with a reasonable degree of certainty that BHVR is defining overall time in chase per trial as time that the chase timer is on. I can't think of any other way or any other data they have that could be pulled.
It gets to be a tricky subject because like most things in DbD, numbers need context. You could compare/contrast first down times if BHVR released that data, but that has a few problems. I earlier mentioned how a quick game that the survivors win would have a low amount of overall chase (gen rush), and a long game that the killer wins would a high amount of chase (killer gen slow down / gen defense), which gets to the idea that the result is more important than the numbers.
With first downs an example of how that could be a problem would be: if a survivor goes on a chase for 90 seconds, and two gens pop, and in an alternative scenario the survivors trade off body blocks and heal each other and it takes 4 minutes until the first down, and two gens pop, presuming the same amount of resources spent and no progress on any other gens, well the two situations are equal.
Average chase time would be almost impossible because there would be so many outliers that would need to be thrown out. An example: I was playing against Sadako the other day. Because of a daily I know exactly how much chase I was in, 15 seconds. I also escaped (2e, so not a hatch escape) and never went down. I was in three 'chases'
Chase 1: Early game, Sadako comes across another survivor and I, we split, she chases the other survivor
Chase 2: The other survivors just unhook and are healing. I run directly into Sadako and try to lead her to the other side of the map. She hits me, but then doesn't pursue.
Chase 3: I try to body block for a survivor on death hook hoping she takes the free tag, but she phases through (allowing another survivor and I to crank out the last gen).
So my overall chase time was 15 seconds, and my average chase time was 5 seconds, but none of my chases were 'bad' (other than that maybe I should not have been so obvious in chase 2, but it accomplished its goal). And even if you average out the chases between the other survivors who had pretty solid chases against her, the extreme low times would really throw it off.
And there's lots of other problems that have occurred to me as I typed this: how would you measure a killer that breaks chase because the survivor is headed to a strong loop, how about a short chase but the survivor pulled the killer away from the gens, a shorter chase but the survivor intentionally went down under a pallet, etc.
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@buggybug said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3926735#Comment_3926735
Shockingly the only 2 I sometimes see is off the record and ds. I dont ever think I seen a single blood rush use even after its rework, shoulder the same thing only seen it when it was apparent people only was going for adept taurie. Don't see baby sitter or borrow time either which is shocking considering how strong baby sitter can be. The 3.0 overated duty of care is another perk I have not seen at all yesterday in my 8 hour stream.
You know the obvious its too op on swf. Hence why I call duty 3.0 because like blood rush and shoulder the burden while potentially strong there is still way better perks.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3926717#Comment_3926717
I know couldn't help but still ask for giggles lol.
Babysitter: I've tried running this a few times and 'unhook anti-tunnel' has a few things going against it:
1: Like all altruistic perks, it has the downside of if you're the tunnel target its useless.
2: If the killer isn't tunneling, it doesn't really have any value. Compare this to something like 'We'll Make It', even if the unhook needs to run away, you still get good value out of it if you heal anyone else (which very well might happen if other survivors run in to body block).
3: Ensuring you're the one to get the unhook when it is needed can be tricky. Not only in soloq might someone else get the save, but even in a SWF if the 'unhook build' is spending a lot of time going for the unhook, either going cross map (risk of getting caught) or chasing the chase, that's a lot of time off gens.
4: Babysitter should make the killer drop chase unless its a killer with a lot of mobility. That's great if its a pure tunnel, but having them switch targets has its downsides. Lots of players will say OTR and DS correct for survivor mistakes, but if you have those perks getting tunneled isn't a mistake. It's going to eat up so much killer time pursuing the target. Babysitter leads to the killer dropping chase and redirecting it to the nearest target (which is probably you, the unhooker, so running this you also have to be confident that you can take chase).
So it falls into the category of 'situationally game winning, but usually not relevant'. I was running this once and hit a Nemesis who was tunneling, I got the survivor unhooked after the second hook, and the Nemesis committed to the chase, which won us the match right there. Lots of times though I just heal a survivor as the time ticks down.
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For @NarkoTri1er @Firellius and anyone else interested in the stats
The poster of the stats for DBDLeague (Imitatia) did get back to me - "Hey there, im always referring to thr average first down time, as this is the easiest one to track. All times are added and then divided by the number of games"
As I suspected, it's not the same as the number BHVR is posting, because
A: It would be unreasonably hard to track manually
B: If those numbers were the average the norm for DBDLeague would be games with a very small number of hooks (probably like 2 to 4), which just isn't true.
Those stats are also from the qualifiers, and as I posted from the numbers above for Mastermind, an average like that can achieved from a combination of high and low times.
Basically though, this number (first down time) is radically different than what BHVR is posting (average total chase time per trial).
Not that I think he'll see it, but my appreciation to anyone with DBDLeague for taking their time to answer my question.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3926388#Comment_3926388
why wouldn't we in something as trivial as chases. You'd expect someone not to be able to hold a 60s chase against Blight like pros can do, but being able to hold only 20s chases on average across all killers?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3926417#Comment_3926417
DbDLeague discord server, dbdl statistics channel, they are pulling data from latest tournaments played.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3926460#Comment_3926460
please tell me what exactly is off topic when you refused to properly respond to any argument i gave, especially about average chase length and how weakest killers have some of the highest killrates
DbDLeague discord server, dbdl statistics channel, they are pulling data from latest tournaments played.How are they pulling the data?
I went into the server and looked at the data. The numbers you cite are from the qualifier series, not the full tournament. I decided to look at the Mastermind, because he was the most extreme.
There were four trials in the in the qualifiers, here are the first down times.
Mastermind
Qualifiers - Origin vs China
3:29
1:28
Qualifiers - Ascent vs Silence
3:31
1:11That roughly comes out the average chase time cited, though a huge disparity between the teams.
However, in two of those 'first chases', multiple survivors where chased as the killer switched targets. In one of them the killer even switched to a third target after getting two infected and injured.
Far from being equal teams (which you've been discussing), there was a pretty clear mismatch. The first was a 4k with 2 gens left vs 8 hooks, and the second 3 hooks vs another 4k with 2 gens remaining.
Given the next two stats listed on that page are first downs, and how similar the average time here is to what is cited, I suspect this is the average first down time per killer, not the average chase.
Anyway, I messaged the individual who posted the stats. Should I hear back I'll post his methodology.
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There tends to be a confusion between two points that sound similar but are actually very different
-Getting a survivor out of the game is the best thing to happen for a killer
-Trying to tunnel a survivor out of the game is the best strategy
Just because something is the best outcome does not mean pursuing it is the best course of actions until evaluating the costs/risks of achieving that. Like in American football, the quickest way to score is by throwing a deep pass (which is something fans tend to clamor for), but an over focus on that strategy also comes with substantial risks.
To evaluate the effectiveness of a tunnel, it comes down to what the survivors have. Do they have anti-tunnel perks? Are they ready to protect each other? Will that targeted survivor just sit on hook and make their skill checks while the others slam gens or will the survivors try for a 4 out?
In large part, there is a guessing game on the killer's part - if you think they have anti-tunnel, don't, if you think you can tunnel, do.
On top of that you add the killer and what type of build they are using into the discussion.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3926263#Comment_3926263
DbdLeague statistics winter circuit
Dark Lord 0:01:04 Blight 0:01:11 Wraith 0:01:17 Lich 0:01:28 Nurse 0:01:30 Spirit 0:01:31 Singularity 0:01:32 Cenobite 0:01:35 Hillbilly 0:01:43 Oni 0:01:56 Unknown 0:01:58 Houndmaster 0:02:01 Plague 0:02:12 Mastermind 0:02:17
Have a link? Because I'm curious how they derived their stats.
Hillbilly stood out to me because I remembered him doing pretty well. I found a total of six instances where Hilbilly was played in the winter circuit (so 12 trials). I've listed them all below in case I missed any.
Here are all the times it took to get to the first down:
Qualifiers - Rapture vs Archon
2:12
1:11
Qualifiers - Jinx vs Void
0:35
1:57
Round 1 - Severance vs Jinx
1:28
0:07
Quarter Finals - Eternal vs Sinners
2:23
0:19
Lower Bracket - Jinx vs Sinners - at this point of the season DbDLeague started putting in the first down time
1:09
0:55
TOP 4 - Calamity vs Sinners
0:28
0:40That averages out to a minute and seven seconds for the first down. Not the first chase even, because that doesn't trigger until the chase icon triggers, and the first down when everyone is healthy, spread around the map, and has every pallet available should be the hardest to get
And the times go down, not up, as we get to top team vs top team.
But unless DBDLeague is tracking chases the same way as BHVR, which seems close to impossible, you're comparing unalike things.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3926225#Comment_3926225
if you are actually so eager to use official data as an argument, why is average chase time of individual survivor in pubs 60s per whole match
Source?
So this is from the July 2024 stream, 1:00 all MMR, 1:06 high MMR.
Except there are a couple of problems with how people view it because I think BHVR is using average to be the 'mean' and not the median (some of the following problems would apply to that as well)
First, the chase timer itself. What people think of as 'in chase' is different than the game marking chase. Shift w away doesn't start a chase. Killers like Wraith can be 'chasing' the survivor without chase starting.
Second, if the survivors stomp the killer, or the killer stomps the survivors, both scenarios would have a very low chase time. Example would be if the killer tunnels a target and then camps the hook, but survivors stay on gens (i.e. old Cannibal games). Even if the first chase was a great 2:00 minutes and then no other chases, well divided between the 4 survivors that's an average chase time of 30 seconds.
Any game that is 'short' is going to have a low chase time.
So you have killers that get fast downs, lowering chase timers, situations where the chase timer doesn't start even if people feel they are in chase, and then games where survivors dominate that also lowers the chase timer. And some of those scenarios are going to have survivors with a chase time of 0 or just a few seconds, and extreme scenarios like that dramatically lower the time.
I suspect the overall time is not that different in comp, but starting/stopping a stopwatch every time the chase marker goes/stops would be pretty annoying (I know because before I started this post I tried that).
Hopefully this doesn't become the new math thread topic that confuses what can be derived from an average number across a large sample size.
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@jjb985 said:
Just stop playing killer. Then when queue times are 30+ minutes maybe they will fix the core issues. I still have people hiding 40+ minutes every match refusing to give me 4k. When are they going to change crows, afking , locker hopping? They just don't care about killer at all.
We keep hearing that the survivor queue time is going to explode, but it doesn't happen.
Also the hiding out is still on their phase 1 road map that runs through June. We still haven't gotten any of these survivor changes to impact gameplay and we might get the killer ones first.
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@CLHL said:
This is the last time I will answer you.
The full quote is:
"You don't need perks or toolboxes with the best addons. All you need to genrush is to split around at the beginning of the match so 3 non-adjacent generators are completed at the end of the first chase. If you don't have Pain Resonance or a killer with high mobility, that game is problably already over. Those saying that base regression is enough, I would like to see is this situations, turning their words into evidence."
So yes, you are cutting my quote in half, completely ignoring the context of the comment. I would like to see you all in this situation, not your result screen where you may have slugged, camp, tunneled or even use The Trapper with 8 traps on shack. Or even use other as example when they do all this when needed.
So what you're asking @ChuckingWong for is:
-3 gens to pop that are spread out
-not getting a hook until that time
-the killer not having mobility (so no increased speed, no teleport)
-the killer not having Pain Res
-no slugging, camping, or tunneling
-not a situation where the Trapper has a setup around the shack
I'm going to take a guess the NOED/end game build is off the table, as are things like Tombstone Myers or a Singularity who has put his cameras around map. I also suspect that a killer who has spread pressure and has multiple survivors injured doesn't count. You've taken out a substantial portion of the killer roster.
It sounds like the killer had a really bad early game. We've taken out the killers who might have been doing setup. Being the killer isn't running gen regression, I have to ask what they are running that led to the chase being this long. Also, this chase had to have happened in a small area or the killer has such 'tunnel' vision that he didn't notice the other survivors as he was running by their gens, meaning the killer almost certainly made some substantial mistakes.
So let's make some points that should be obvious
1: The killer has a bad early game. You're saying you want to see how people play from here, well I want to see what happened that the killer got into this position. When things go wrong for one side, their chance of victory should decrease. I don't expect if the killer gets three downs in the first two minutes for survivors to still have an even shot, I just want them to have some type of shot and the game to still be enjoyable.
2: Trying to find a game like this would take quite some time. Not only would the person taking this challenge need to play from your selected range of killers, they would have to underplay the beginning and the survivors would have to spread out. Any game where the killer got an earlier down or the survivors didn't adequately spread out wouldn't count.
3: How strictly would the no tunnel, no camp, no slug be? People act like BHVR, or even survivors, are saying if someone is left on the ground for 10 seconds the killer auto loses. That's not what people are talking about and BHVR will likely be pretty minimal in their changes, as we've seen with AFC and 3 genning.
4: Let's say someone did record a whole bunch of games and they got 10 to fit your criteria. How many would they have to win? Like if they won 3, drew 1, and lost 6, I'd think that sounds like the killer has amazing come back potential given how bad the start was.
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@Roco45 said:
Killers don't need buffs to compensate, SWF need nerfs and for their gameplay to be altered when queuing with friends, that's all. Any buffs to Killers just negate any changes made to tunneling/camping/slugging so the issue will still be present, as it always is. People will downvote this because SWF mustn't be touched, even if it's at the complete detriment to the entire rest of the game, but that's the only way to start achieving some actual balance for the health of the game.
It's a non-starter. I'd rip SWF out of the game if it was designed just for my enjoyment, but there is no chance BHVR will ever treat SWFs differently than soloq.
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@Nomade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3925489#Comment_3925489
Fine.
First I want to set the record straight because I think you have me confused for someone else perhaps. I have been a proponent to keep slugging around but fix the issues with it precisely because, fundimentally, it demands survivors do somthing other than slam gens like they're Usain Bolt in a track race. Slugging punishes tunneling on gens, hard. Instead you need to go pick up your teammates. It also means more engagement from the killer. More and longer chases. I have no idea where you got the opinion i wanted survivors on gens all game from but that is not true in the slightest.
Adding more to that, I would like to point out that hook states are 70 seconds each. Where is all the complaining from survivors about being left on hook for 60+ seconds while their teammates loop the killer and slam gens? I havent seen any, have you? Curious, that survivors will complain about being left on the ground for any length of time though, and then those same survivors will defend 70 second hook states. Please tell me you see the hypocrisy here. It seems to me that again, people are not being honest about what they dislike so much about being slugged or the complaints ultimately stem from this strategy countering gen rushing, and not triggering survivors most powerful perks. If it's the latter then people are just being sore losers. If its the bleedout times then you know I have said I am in favor of shortening them.
So yeah, I suppose I can get a little rude when people wont be honest, wont focus on where the root problems are, and refuse to accept that the devs nerfing some things can contribute to pushing other playstyles people like even less. I suppose i can get a little rude when people respond to valid killer complaints with "get good" yet do nothing but complain when the shoe is on the other foot. Yeah I can get a little rude when people engage in bad faith by putting up stawman arguments and being disingenuous. And most recently of all, I can definitely get a little POed when someone makes a well constructed post about the problems killers have only to be met with bad faith responses.
For the record none of that third paragraph is directed at you.Where is all the complaining from survivors about being left on hook for 60+ seconds while their teammates loop the killer and slam gens? I havent seen any, have you?I certainly have. I don't even think its that rare.
Additionally, the difference in time is really important. Imagine you are in line for an amusement park ride or restaurant. At what point does the wait go from irrelevant, to a little annoying, to boring, to so long it wasn't worth the wait. It would be different for every person of course, but trying to define the exact difference is really important.
If I'm on hook or slugged for 30 to 45 seconds, its not a big deal. I probably take a moment to drink whatever I have handy, then I survey the field and refocus. Once it goes above 45 seconds, it quickly starts to get boring. When it gets to 90 seconds I'm thinking about why am I in the game, at two minutes I'm planning what I'm going to play that's not DbD once the game is over.
On top of all that, the hook timer is a count down. So right as it gets to that point where it is getting boring, you also get to the stage where a hook rescue becomes really important. There is tension and excitement as you see another survivor rush toward you wondering if they will make it in time.
So yes, people complain about being on hook, but there are two reasons why it is a very different thing.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3925366#Comment_3925366
I don't think gen defence is weak, at least not overall.
The perks are weaker, but even then, most of them work perfectly well as long as you're using them to support basekit slowdown, not replace it.
Theperksare weaker, but even then, most of them work perfectly well as long as you're using them tosupportbasekit slowdown, notreplaceit.They're weaker, but the level of response doesn't make sense.
If I understand the pain res math:
Old pain res you can get 90 seconds reduced with 4 hooks.
Current pain res you can get 72 seconds reduced with 4 hooks.
18 seconds (4.5 per hook) is definitely a nerf, but it hardly makes the perk dead. Over a large number of games it will impact the stats, but as a percentage of matches for an individual player where it made a difference would be very small.
@ChuckingWong said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3925382#Comment_3925382
Its pretty obvious that the posters saying things like Pain Res and Pop are weak or not meta are clearly just making things up at this point.
The people saying they are weak have nothing backing up what they say and everything against them. They know it as well, its just noise/bait at this point.
We see it in the highest level of play, normal level of play, any level of play. These perks are good.
Maybe these players are just not that great at killer? whos to say. But gen slow down perks are not bad and certainly are a large part of effective meta.Maybe these players are just not that great at killer?I forget who said it, but many killers will think the game is balanced when they personally can go 50/50 with Team Eternal.
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It looks like his camera doesn't quite catch you as he spins around.
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@Neaxolotl said:
Honestly I don't really know what other strategies to use when tunneling isn't allowed, camping isn't allowed, gen defense isn't allowed, and even slugging isn't allowed?
Guess simply running around aimlessly and hitting anything you see is the only thing killers are allowed now? I'm not opposed to the idea as that's what I have most fun with, but it'd require massive amount of buffs to actually work for vast majority of killers which is sub B tier
Honestly I don't really know what other strategies to use when tunneling isn't allowed, camping isn't allowed, gen defense isn't allowed, and even slugging isn't allowed?I think this is what people mean by doom posting.
Like gen defense, that's allowed. There's a limit, but you can certainly use a tight 3 gen as part of a strategy as killer. People act like if you hit the gen cap limit you automatically lose the game. No, you'll still be able to do all of the things they are working on 'anti' strategies for, they'll just likely be minimally harder.
In comparison, survivors used to be able to play to escape via the hatch and ignore the doors entirely. That (rightfully) was completely removed from the game as a strategy.
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@buggybug said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3925192#Comment_3925192
Don't forget stealth build nerf= distortion. I already said all you said in various posts but lately am a point that topics like these I skip over or let others talk lol.
Killers will always think the game is survivor sided and only survivors care for meanwhile I wonder why am still having long killer queues and when will I ever see bonus incentives for for killer.
I already said all you said in various posts but lately am a point that topics like these I skip over or let others talk lol.The true trial in DbD is the forums. We come and make arguments, valiantly fighting to make a difference, and then the next day we repeat the same process.
Then the next.
And the next.
And somewhere in BHVR the real Entity feeds on our efforts.
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@Defnotmeghead said:
3 small changes that will not harm any killer in specific:
Change 1: survivors are able to recover while crawling
Change 2: crawling when not recovering is 100% faster(which, is only useful to do if the killer is right there or if you are done recovering, otherwise average distance remains the same)
Change 3: you can now pick yourself up for free at any UNFINISHED generator(of which, the aura of the nearest generator would be shown).
This doesnt really impact the effectiveness of slugging lategame, when slugging should be a viable strategy. It does MASSIVELY impact slugging when there are a lot of gens remaining.
It is the only healthy way I can see it work.
A singular basekit unbreakable? Doesnt really work against slugging Nurses and Blights, will heavily negatively impact a Trapper slugging with 1 gen remaining.
An anti-camp like feature while slugged? Depends too much on maps. Useless on Swamp, can be used against you on Game.
Any endurance basekit on pickup? Could be nice, but doesnt really solve any problems and can be used very offensively lategame.Change 1 - I suspect this is the direction we will actually get. People are talking about basekit unbreakable, but I think some form of increasing crawl speed/heal speed (Tenacity) is more likely.
Change 2 - I think 100% is too much. 50%, maybe, but I definitely could see 25%.
Change 3 - This is interesting. My initial reaction was, no, absolutely not, but I'm thinking it through.
This means if the killer slugs someone across the map, they can't pick themselves up. That's reasonable, otherwise survivors would always try and pull the killer away.
This weakens the ability of the killer to slug and protect a gen at the same time. I think that would be a good change.
It also means if the survivor crawls to a gen and the killer isn't pressuring the slug, there's a high chance there's a survivor on that gen who just picks them up. This means the change doesn't create a new type of benefit, which is good.
I kind of like it. I think there's no chance BHVR would actually do something like this, but it's a neat idea.
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It does remind me of an idea that I haven't seen in a while, that being slugged survivors should be able to do gens, but at a reduced rate.
In terms of what I think we'll get: faster crawl speed, and some level of basekit recovery while crawling.
Also maybe the ability of slugged survivors to 99 their heal progress so they can be one tapped for pick ups.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3924980#Comment_3924980
i don't have anything against survivor mains in general, but in bothers me when i see people making such uneducated claims in terms of game balance when they are not even trying to be aware of the state of game 100%.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3925003#Comment_3925003
please tell me which of these killer adjustments were not nullfied by putting main objective of the killer, hooks, in an even worse state?
I literally beg you and every other person who thinks killer role is in a fine spot rn or too strong, start arranging custom matches with people who actually know how to play the game, no rulesets on either side at all to simulate pub matches instead of making claims based on how the game feels due to people being matched conpletely randomly in terms of skill due to absolutely horrendous matchmaking.
I literally beg you and every other person who thinks killer role is in a fine spot rn or too strong, start arranging custom matches with people who actually know how to play the game,There's a huge flaw in your argument.
What if I arrange a custom match and play survivor and get destroyed, then arrange a custom match and play killer and lose, but it's moderately competitive?
The flaw here is presuming that these are the players who are on the same skill level as you. I have no problem with the idea that there are players who are better at the game then me. You keep talking about when same skills match up, the killer is losing out, well maybe the survivors are just better.
Minor flaws:
1: You can't ever simulate a pub in a custom. The very nature of going into a custom match means the killer will likely select from a smaller pool of killers, but in pubs survivors have to be prepared for anything. This is one of the killers main advantages.
2: The game has various levels of sweaty. Most people don't engage in the extremes, though it is far easier to do on the killer side. Just limiting the scope of the game to your preferred specific scenario means you aren't talking about the game or the killer role.
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@Ace_Main said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3925079#Comment_3925079
I see what’s going on here. You’re out here acting like the killer is just outclassed, and all this nerfing of tunneling, camping, and slugging is going to solve everything. The truth? It’s just not that simple.
Let’s get one thing straight: the real problem isn’t that killers are too aggressive or unfair, it’s that survivors are getting more tools than they need. They’ve got perks that let them heal across the map in seconds, escape from almost any chase, and slam out gens at lightning speed with little to no risk. You talk about tunneling and slugging being the “last resort,” but let’s be real — when the entire survivor side is built to make sure you have almost no chance of catching them in a fair chase, what else is a killer supposed to do?
You really think AFC is going to solve camping or slugging? Please. It’s like giving someone a paper towel to stop a flood. We’ve seen this dance before: the devs throw out these “fixes” that barely touch the issue. Campers and tunnelers will just keep doing what they’ve been doing, and the game will still feel unbalanced. Meanwhile, survivors get to pull out second-chance perk after second-chance perk, running away with the game with every map rotation.
And gen speeds? Don’t even get me started. They’re way too fast for the killer to even try and keep up with. It’s like the survivors are on a time crunch while the killer’s stuck in slow motion. The whole "gen-speed complaints" are treated like an afterthought, but seriously, how many times have we seen survivors rush through gens like it’s nothing? The problem isn’t just killers camping or tunneling — it’s that survivors have way too much power with how quickly they can finish gens and escape.
Sure, we get a few changes here and there, like nerfing the perks, but then you get the same cycle over and over. The second the killer gets any edge, the devs backpedal, and suddenly we’re left with nothing to slow down survivors. Killers aren’t just randomly camping or tunneling because they’re bored; they’re doing it because survivors are constantly given the tools to make escaping way too easy. Whether it’s DS, Unbreakable, Circle of Healing, or the lovely perk Dead Hard (which is basically the only survivor who gets to dodge a hit), killers have to compensate somehow. If they don’t, survivors will literally just dance circles around them while cranking out gens.
So, I’m not buying this idea that killers have all these “unfair advantages” just because they’re doing their best to keep the match fair. If anything, they’re fighting an uphill battle while survivors breeze through the game. Maybe instead of nerfing killer tools, the devs should consider slowing down the game for survivors. Let them feel the weight of their actions for once, instead of running around like the whole map is theirs to play in. There’s only so much killers can do when the game is so skewed in favor of survivors.
But sure, keep defending the idea that killers are the problem here. Keep ignoring the fact that it’s the survivors who’ve been handed all the advantages for years. Keep acting like tunneling and camping are the real issues, when in reality, they’re just a consequence of everything else being so stacked against the killer.
And when the next update rolls out and survivors are still dominating the game, we’ll see who’s really been overcompensating.
I'm jumping into the middle of the convo, but I think the following is missing the point @AmpersandUnderscore is making
Let’s get one thing straight: therealproblem isn’t that killers are too aggressive or unfair, it’s thatsurvivors are getting more tools than they need. They’ve got perks that let them heal across the map in seconds, escape from almost any chase, and slam out gens at lightning speed with little to no risk.With how perks have been treated, survivors have no reason to do anything but gens. Set up a circle of healing so survivors can self heal? Not just nerfed, eliminated. Go for a flashbang save or ftp+buckle up, nerfed on the former and, again, on the latter out right destroyed. Run a build to make yourself very hard to hook, which also really limited the area of the map you could pressure, nerfed.
Even things like MFT and Dead Hard that allowed survivors to more willingly engage in chase have been nerfed.
So what can survivors do? Well, you can load up on anti-tunnel, or gen perks, you can run an exhaustion perk to shift-w, and you run a chase build if your really confident in your looping ability. But in terms of gameplay, you stay on gens.
There are some strong, situational perks, but they all revolve around 'just do gens'. Some of the game changes above should have happened, but being you're original post talked about why killers play the way they do, we need to look at the reason survivors play the way they do. There isn't a reason any more to get off the gen because all of the strong (and sometimes just more interesting) options have been destroyed.
@Ace_Main said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3924901#Comment_3924901
Exactly — saying 'we'll buff killers elsewhere' is just PR-speak for 'sit tight while we maybe do something... eventually.' We’ve heard it before. Killer-side balancing in DBD moves slower than a 110% killer with a 24-meter terror radius and zero map pressure. By the time any actual buff lands, half the killer player base has either burned out or swapped sides.
And when those buffs do come, it’s either some ultra-specific add-on tweak that nobody uses, or a rework that solves nothing and somehow breaks something else. Meanwhile, survivor-side changes roll out fast, broad, and with full dev blogs explaining the logic. But for killers? It's always, ‘trust the process’ — which apparently means ‘hope you enjoy getting looped for five gens while we finish our next roadmap graphic.’
Meanwhile, survivor-side changes roll out fast, broad, and with full dev blogs explaining the logic.As a few others have said, calling these fast is crazy given how long some of these changes have taken. Even with things like anti-slugging and go next, BHVR has been saying they've been coming for years now.
As for explaining, partly this is due to interacting with the killer complaints. 3 gen change, AFC, we got lots of complaints (many outright absurd) about how these were going to be abused. BHVR's explanation is frequently trying to get killers to see what is happening (which is usually 'this isn't a big change at all, just don't do this one specific thing').
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@Nomade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3924965#Comment_3924965
A pathetic buff… Id rather have gen kicks be unlimited and not have the 10% initial regression to this disgusting state they are in currently. That one change gutted most gen kick perks. There are more than just gen regression gen kick perks. You wanna talk about a change that completly screwed perk build diversity? That would be such a change.
You wanna talk about a change that completly screwed perk build diversity?I mean I wasn't talking about perk build diversity, or even perks, so I guess no.
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When we got the 3 gen change there was a buff to kicks and elimination of gen tapping. So a small group of killers had a particular playstyle nerfed and every other killer benefited.
If these changes even approach the 3 gen change killers will be fine. We don't even know what the anti-tunnel/anti-slug will be.
And as @AmpersandUnderscore mentions, killers get buffed all the time. Some patches are more survivor sided, some are more killer sided.
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@QuestionMark220 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3924873#Comment_3924873
I forgot we got stats in January. Basically irrelevant though considering the new maps we got and the fact that nightlight gg shows her at 52-54% for the last 8 months with a few one month spikes.
Still not at 60% and nowhere near frankly as I have people throw on hook nearly every other game which artificially inflates kill rates and she is at the bottom 5 of the stats you shared. Definitely needs a buff.
I used to trust Nightlight, but given how far their stats were off from the last time BHVR published stats, I don't think they are trustworthy anymore.
5% seems to be BHVR's wiggle room and Huntress has fallen within the edge of that.
As for being bottom five, someone has to be at the bottom. Given most of the killers on the bottom have high skill ceilings, its not surprising she is down there.
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@QuestionMark220 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3924842#Comment_3924842
56% for High MMR. THREE years ago. She has been where I said for the last year. She was at 58% for one month anfter the buffs and plummeted. New maps have been awful for her.
I guarantee when the anti slugging, tunneling and camping changes go live she will drop below 50%. Mark my words.
No, 56% from January 2024, all MMR.
That was before the buffs.
Likely a little higher because they wipe DCs out of the record.
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@QuestionMark220 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3924574#Comment_3924574
That’s a total joke😂 Huntress has been hovering between 52-54% for 11 months now. That 60% number is a joke, they don’t really want to hit it.
And before the buffs she got she was hovering from 46-54% for 6 years and survivors were absolutely OUTRAGED that she received any changes.
She was at 56% last time they released stats for her, and since then they gave her basekit buffs to the amount of hatchets she could carry and the wind up speed.
She's also one of the hardest killers to balance because of the disparity between playing her on PC and console.
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@HeroLives said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3924765#Comment_3924765
Mandy said it in the one of the posts concerning it, should be one of her comments if you go to her profile where she replied to someone.
If you've not seen, I posted it up above for you.
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@Adam_Francis_Main said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3924534#Comment_3924534
you said they did last year? but not this year, alot has changed numbers wise? So it has to do with alot.
Except not sure a lot has changed numbers wise, here was a post from six months ago.
@Mandy said:
We put out various stat data, especially when things change drastically. Right now the last kill rate data still applies - so there's no real need to reproduce the data.
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@Mandy said:
I'll jump in here right away to try to reassure you, if any feature that's implemented changes kill rates drastically and in a negative manner (as you know we aim for approx 60% kill rate), we will make adjustments as necessary. These are QoL features, so focusing on game health and enjoyment, these are not balancing changes as such.
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@StalkingYou said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/O5B2YAGLUOYZ/img-2817.jpg
so, lo and behold, even more mechanics are being implemented to hinder "dirty tactics" even further.
so, let's make a list of perks that assist survivors against tunneling killers/camping/slugging killers:
decisive
off the recordreassurance
camaraderie
babysitter (already a top 10 perk for survivor, banned in many competitive matches, yet was buffed this update :D)
borrowed time
we're gonna live forever, where you cannot leave a survivor on the ground for even 10 seconds to go hit another person in the area even if you do not intend on slugging
we'll make it
deliverance
SHOULDER THE BURDEN
——————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————
Now for mechanics that assist survivors against tunneling/camping
basekit BT
anti-camp
hook grab removal (technically a feature? but a survivor can run right past you in your face and get a guaranteed ape save so)
———————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————
Ok. So now lets talk about the killers who are actually affected by this:
nurse is not affectedblight is not affected
billy is not affected
basically every killer that is strong (A tier and above) are not affected by these changes at all because their powers allow survivors to down people very quickly so there is rarely a need to tunnel, or their powers allow them to shred through these defenses rapidly with quick catchup and great anti-loop
So who is actually affected by anti-tunnel?
ghostface, pig, Myers, trapper, legion, trickster, doctor, sadako, dredge, the list goes on. think of any below average m1 killer and they will probably be affected by this.
basically any killer that cannot down survivors in quick succession/ do not have strong mobility are the only ones getting hit by anti-tunnel at all… but why?
these killers get hit by anti tunnel the most for two reasons:
1. they're the ones who need to tunnel to win most: these killers simply do not have the ability to go for 12 hook games against even decent teams because they lack the chase power to down those players efficiently
2. their powers do not allow them to quickly shred through anti-tunnel defenses and they mainly use their M1 to attack.
———————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————-
so how much is enough? how many times are we going to keep beating these killers with a stick for employing the only strategy that yields success?
its a whole other can of worms to point out the fact that not a single thing here addresses the killer's fun by nerfing survivor efficiency. I dont find it fun when I'm playing Legion and 4 survivors are split up on 4 different gens with nothing I can do about it, where is my anti-genrush feature? why is it only the survivors who are seen as victims of the killer's evil dirty toxic strategies? when killers complain they're told to get better, when survivors complain they're showered with mechanic after mechanic after perk after perk to handhold them against tunneling killers. because there's nothing they can do, tunneling op, we are helpless victims.
want killers to play nicer? make playing nice an actual feasible strategy because now it is not. and no, 2.5% extra gen kick/attack cooldown speed does not magically make doctor capable of getting 12 hook games.
every single killer slowdown perk that is even remotely popular has been nerfed in some regard, never the same about the survivor's perks (some lean on the side of plain obnoxious). lots of these perks are flat-out banned in competitive (and yes, competitive is a good metric, those are good players that know how to use perks so im not gonna sit here and pretend a perk is mid because your average solo q player doesn't know how to use it. cough cough shoulder the burden)
but I guess we can all agree its obvious that the devs balance for survivors after that abandon/surrender change which punished killers getting held hostage and let survivors walk out with a draw after losing, right? right?
I already know the consensus on this is to employ the caveman mentality of "tunnel = bad. if you tunnel you = bad player. I no tunnel I win every game. no tunnel and these perks do not affect you" and that my opinion is the unpopular opinion.
so, for the sake of my own sanity, if you say any of these things I will not reply to you, and will instead imagine you trying to go for a 12 hook game while playing ghostface on gas heaven against a 4 man. totally owned, bro.its a whole other can of worms to point out the fact that not a single thing here addresses the killer's fun by nerfing survivor efficiency. I dont find it fun when I'm playing Legion and 4 survivors are split up on 4 different gens with nothing I can do about it, where is my anti-genrush feature?10 seconds where added to gens once upon a time, that just seems to be forgotten.
But it also sounds like what you find not fun is not winning, and accepting that you might win/lose is part of a multiplayer game. People want gameplay elements that don't leave them stuck not doing anything for long periods of time.
Also every player is entitled to what they find fun / not fun, but BHVR has to consider their overall audience.
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@Zakon05 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3924567#Comment_3924567
Literally nobody cares about what the invisible MMR regards as a draw or loss.
Yes, it's silly that the MMR regards the survivors abandoning the match as a draw for them. Yes, that should be changed. But also, nobody actually wants high MMR in this game, I guarantee you that the survivors who abandon would much rather regard the match as a loss so their MMR will go down.
"Quick, if I hit the abandon I get to avoid losing this match!" -said no sane survivor who is currently slugged or on hook ever.
If you downed all 4 survivors and they abandon, you win and they lose.
Also, complaining about Babysitter? Really? The most unproblematic, least abusable anti-tunnel perk in the entire game? Yes it's banned in comp, but you shouldn't really use comp rules to determine what's fine for pub matches, they are not playing the same game as everyone else.
Yes, it's silly that the MMR regards the survivors abandoning the match as a draw for them.Except it doesn't and I'm surprised this continues to live on in the forums.
@Mandy said:
One thing to add as I can see people talking about the win / lose / draw conditions, please know this is match outcome and not what happens with MMR which is much more conditional.
No one seems to know what the mean by 'draw', but its not MMR.
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@Adam_Francis_Main said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3924529#Comment_3924529
not this year with their recent update.
And I don't know what that has to do with anything. They've never released data nearly to the level the community would want.
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@Adam_Francis_Main said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3924496#Comment_3924496
They never showed the full roster.
They did last year:
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3924489#Comment_3924489
I still think it sours the match and for the winner.
Given this point of view though are you in favor of allowing the killer to abandon as well once it’s only bots left and it gives him the win? Currently it takes the win from them unless they stay there wasting their time with bots.
Given this point of view though are you in favor of allowing the killer to abandon as well once it’s only bots left and it gives him the win? Currently it takes the win from them unless they stay there wasting their time with bots.Yes, though BHVR's messaging has been extremely confusing on the win/draw, killers absolutely should be able to abandon and given the win.
I also think killer should be able to abandon and replaced with a bot if the doors have been opened for cases where survivors are just sitting around to teabag.
I think it would be reasonable for either survivors or killers (presuming the gate open scenario) to have a minimum of 15 second before they abandon so the match can still end 'normally', though BHVR has chosen not to go in that route (likely for coding simplicity which I think would be a valid reason).
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BHVR never clarified what they meant by draw (huge mistake), but they did say it had nothing to do with MMR. They certainly aren't winning when they abandon.
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Don't confuse goals with absolutes. Not every killer is going to hit 60%, not every segment of survivors is going to hit at 40%. It is not the only metric they use for health of the game (despite how people talk about it).
I'm actually surprised how close they are across MMR/killers.
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Unless there is some 'you can't leave the lobby' mechanic, this is a potential disaster. Really surprised this is the way they are handling it.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3924299#Comment_3924299
I was referencing American and not professional. Like you don’t generally see any of this in recreational sports. Like I played sports all my life growing up as a kid and even we get destroyed we saw the whole game through till the end, shook hands, stayed for the announcements ect.
If every time we were too far behind to win we just instantly quit and walked off the field that would look so petty and childish. It’s not good sportsmanship.
I wrestled and ran distance in high school. With wrestling there is a built in way the match ends, if there is an extreme mismatch it will last literally seconds before a pin.
On American football, as I mentioned, the winning team can speed up the game by running the ball, which is usually what happens.
I think @ChuckingWong and I are using recreational to mean more like pick up basketball where its a bunch of people who just make teams on the spot. There I've been in lots of situations where one side has a big lead and everyone agrees it would be a better idea to move on (and if there is time just start a new game with better teams).
My point being that sports do have ways to speed up matches that have already been decided and a lot of 'unwritten' rules on how the game should be played (the winning team drawing out the game being viewed as bad). In addition, there's a big difference between a sport which you might play two or three times a week, and DbD where people can play hundreds of games a week. In the former, a few extra minutes is not a big deal, in the latter extra time in even a quarter of your games really adds up.
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@Blueberry said:
I find it kind of weird that ever since the abandon feature as survivor I haven’t seen a single losing match to the conclusion. Like it’s an auto everyone leaves instantly. I just find the whole concept weird. It’s like if we were playing football games and every time the timer for the end of the game was done the losing team just instantly left, like immediately walked off the field. No conclusion winding up the matches, announcements, shaking hands, nothing. Like it’s just anticlimactic and would make it look petty that the losing team didn’t even stay to see it to the conclusion.
Like the equivalent of this would be if as soon as the final gen was completed the killer could instantly abandon as well. I mean this would be fair based on the survivor abandon criteria, but this would sound just as weird as the survivor one to me. Same issues. It’s just instantly leaving for convenience without seeing the game to the conclusion.
I feel like this abandon feature should’ve been to avoid toxicity such as bleeding survivors out or something, not just as a way to save time and go next faster while avoiding good sportsmanship. How it’s currently used harms the integrity of the game imo, even if most people find it “convenient”.
I just find the whole concept weird. It’s like if we were playing football games and every time the timer for the end of the game was done the losing team just instantly leftA few points
1: If we're talking professional sports, well they've been paid for a certain amount of time (the TV networks are still running ads, the stadium is still selling merch). Much different than a purely recreational activity. On a recreational front, I've played lots of games where one team / player got such a large lead that everyone agreed it wasn't worth playing it out and we just move on and play something else.
College and high school sports have mercy rules to end blowouts quicker.
2: If by football we mean American football, it certainly has something like this. When one team has an insurmountable lead they put in their backups and they run the ball more to speed up the clock. Frequently the losing team does the same.
It also has the 'kneel down' play meant to literally just run out the clock.
3: If by football we're talking about soccer, the nature of the game's score means that it is rarely impossible for it to be completely out of reach. Given leads are usually 1 or 2 goals, you aren't going to have the same disparity as exists in something like DbD.
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@frozzenk said:
Just title.
Doesn't it seem a bit hypocritical from the devs to allow survivors to give up and go next when they're in a losing situation (all survivors are down) but when killers are in a losing situation they are not given the same option? When the gates are opened the killer can't just give up if they want to. They have to be there for match completion as the survivors teabag at the gate or spam fast vaults, etc.
I'm not asking about whether or not it would be optimal to give up in this situation. That's not the point. The point is that there is no option for A team, but there is one for B team. A team is forced to play their losses to the end. B team is not. Where is the balance in this situation?
Doesn't it seem a bit hypocriticalNope, its an asym, the two sides are having different games. If we start talking about hypocrisy, the whole game is hypocrisy.
allow survivors to give up and go next when they're in a losing situation (all survivors are down)This isn't just a 'losing' situation, this is a 'lost' situation. Its not like survivors can abandon if a killer has someone eliminated and there are still four gens to go, even though they are clearly losing. Its for the situations where the game is over and sticking around is kind of pointless.
With how killer queues have been, getting survivors out of the match and back into the next one is also kind of necessary.
When the gates are opened the killer can't just give up if they want to.I think this would be fine for the killer to leave and be replaced by a bot.
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@PetTheDoggo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3924189#Comment_3924189
So, they took the game from a roughly 50% kill rate around patch 6.1.0 three years ago
I have played during that time it wasn't really fun imo. I especially didn't enjoy 8 minutes+ queue times on survivors (I play only during evenings EU), which was an issue needed to be fixed imo.
Main thing to understand is kill rate is not same as win rate. If you have killers who has at least 1 kill in majority of their loses, then their kill rate is going to quite high with way lower win rate.
In reality 50% win rate equal is going to be 56-58% kill rate depends how killer perform on their loses.I have played during that time it wasn't really fun imo.This is a different question that can be a bit distracting.
Do the Devs have a goal of the game being killer side? Yes
Should the Devs have the goal of the game being killer sided and, if so, how much? Maybe, depends on who you ask. I think so, though I think a kill rate around 57% (which falls into the range you mention) would be healthier than the 60 to 65% they have said they shoot for.
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@Skeleton23 said:
First off what I mean on 1Gen lock is when the 3 remaining Gens are locked down by the Killer because there one to close together or the killer knows what there doing.
I was wondering If it's the Killers fault that the survivors couldn't get out of a 1Gen Lock or is it the Survivors fault for not watching what Gens they are doing to provent this from happening
I've had 5 games where the Killer and I manage to get a 4k at 1Gen because they last remaining Gens where close together and the survivors couldn't get our of the lock the killer had them in and was insulted and degraded because of the outcome.
II'm Wondering if it was my fault for this happening in the game or is it the survivors fault.
My apologies if I misunderstand anything you wrote.
What you're discussing is generally called 3 genning. I don't like to use the word 'fault', but no one should be insulted in the end game chat over it. Sometimes killers only try and defend a 3 gen, which can be very boring to play against, but its not against the rules and not as bad as it once was.
If you're talking about the holding a 3 gen to try and use the abandon feature, that's a different topic that BHVR needs to clear up.
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@toxik_survivor said:
The main problem with this game is balancing around skill level. It's almost impossible unless like I said above, each killer is different with each range of mmr
Add ons and killer tiers partially deal with this. Not great, but kind of.
Some killers are meant to be starter killers and some are 'end game'. Trapper can feel really strong to start, and then you can buff him with add ons later, but at a certain point he's really going to struggle.
Basically, at some point killers are meant to move out of the easier to play but ultimately weaker killers to the ones that are more complex to play.
Lots of people dislike that formula though it is perhaps inevitable.
@toxik_survivor said:
What if the balance was different for each mmr range...for example each killer has different power statistics for each range of MMR. Would be the craziest game coding ever but it's an idea. Let's say nurse is normal at low MMR ranges since ppl don't know how to use her, than at average MMR ranges she should prob also stay the same, and then at high MMR ranges she is nerfed
You mention the coding, which would be a significant problem, but it would also suck as a player. 'I got better, so now I get hobbled?' I bet lots of players would try to stay below certain MMR lines.
It would also be fair for killers to ask for something similar to happen with survivor items or SWFs, but then we're right back in the same place.
Conceptually MMR should take care of these issues, but lots of people don't think it works (I do, to a degree), but it definitely breaks down at the extreme cases, which Nurse can be.
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@ChuckingWong said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3923930#Comment_3923930
Let me make this really simple for you:
Yes, you are being contradictory, all over this thread.
You said this:
"If you balance the game around high skill players, you MUST contend with the fact that at the highest level, Nurse is pretty much one of the only viable killers."
But when I bring up actual, documented, recorded high-skill performance, like SupaAlf’s 1,132 win streak, or tournament teams like Team Eternal, suddenly it “doesn’t matter.” Now you’re dismissing the clearest examples we have of high-level gameplay.
Then you pivot and say:
"But the data doesn’t show it. Even Nurse, when looking at HIGH MMR per BHVR’s stats, always shows her at the middle of the pack at best."
So now you’re hugging BHVR’s public kill rate data, which is still averaged out across thousands of players with wildly different skill levels, even at "high MMR." You’re moving the goalposts to whatever supports your point in the moment.
You can’t claim Nurse is only viable at high skill and then reject high-skill evidence when it makes her look broken. You also can’t dismiss win streaks as subjective while acting like kill rate stats are gospel; especially when those stats are shaped by player volume, not peak potential.
Since you brought up the stats? Let’s look at them.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/I79LMK6VC0JL/image.png
You don’t get to call Nurse "only viable at high level" and then turn around and ignore the actual high-level evidence when it makes her look too strong. That’s not a consistent argument, it’s just cherry-picking to protect your stance.
If we’re talking about real balance at the top level, we need to acknowledge that Nurse isn’t just viable, she’s in a completely different league.
You've now triple downed on something you aren't even staying consistent with.which is still averaged out across thousands of playersMillions, actually.
Also I commend you for avoiding the discussion traps. It's an obvious false dichotomy and strawman.
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I have to presume they did some market research that said possible new players liked the new colors better and, given an expected flood with FNaF, they decided that was worth more than the existing players.
Understandable I guess, but I personally really dislike them.
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There have been lots of suggestions on ways to rebalance or rework the Nurse so she isn't so lopsided. Unfortunately BHVR hasn't taken any of them and unlikely they are going to consider it. On a conspiracy front, by her being the strongest killer, it allows them to avoid the argument that the game is 'pay to win'.
On a less conspiracy front, I just don't think they want to touch a killer who has operated in such a manner for such a long period of time. She doesn't have a huge pick rate, perhaps because she becomes really boring once mastered, so she is probably seen as low priority.
@TieBreaker said:
Tweaking Nurse and Blight hasn't really impacted their strength too much. I think the devs should try using a new system to help balance out the cast. Something like reduced or extended perk slots. Killers like Nurse and Blight get two or three, and killers like Trapper and Myers get six or something.
I think it's time the devs try something new to achieve killer balance.
Adding more perk slots would create lots of problems. Run 5 hexes and penti, super gen regression, info and chase, you'd have way too many possible combinations.
Less perk slots would be a possible balancing factor, but would likely harm the experience and given how strong killer powers are in relation to perks, likely not be a major balancing factor.
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@francesinhalover said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3923511#Comment_3923511
It's a nice burn, but someone already said it
From my new loss streak happening atm id say it's impossible to go back to baby mmr once you leave it.
Just remember the forum rule:
If you're struggling as survivor, it just means you're bad at the game
If you're struggling as killer, it's evidence that the game design is broken and you're super high MMR