crogers271
crogers271
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I don't see how it could work. So many elements of the game are based around a 4v1 scenario. You'd basically have to reimagine the whole game for it to make sense.
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3883276#Comment_3883276
Did you have 2 bots in your eventual lobby?
But we have posts just telling survivors to suck it up. We don't seem to be having posts telling killers that their thoughts on the issue don't matter.
The power trip that comes from the power role often follows the player along to the forums. Survivors are always being told by killer mains what is and is not 'okay'. Now, its apparently not okay to even post unless you sweat. These players are what keep me on the forums: its always a good chuckle lol. They literally have no idea outside their little ego world.
Just 1 to start actually, but someone else DCed not too long into the match.
We'll get to those two bots one way or the other!
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By controller I'll guess you mean console.
Do you have cross play enabled?
You queue will take 20 to 30 minutes it seems like, but it shouldn't be two hours.
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3883265#Comment_3883265
Why are survivor complaints about the game and not wanting to play somehow less valuable than the killers complaining about long it takes to get a match?
Well, one complaint is about what happens in the match, and the other is about what happens before the match even begins.
I'm willing to have fun with these talks! Granted, long queue times do need dealt with. But we see how they are being treated: the BHVR treatment. No one is happy with this decision, be it survivor or killer. I don't feel we should be at one another's throats over anything that isn't directly 'our fault'. But, here we are.
Granted, long queue times do need dealt with.I agree with that. It took 25 minutes for me to get into my match (me as a Huntress, other was a Legion, one hatch escape, 3 gens remaining).
But we have posts just telling survivors to suck it up. We don't seem to be having posts telling killers that their thoughts on the issue don't matter.
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@joeyspeehole said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3883113#Comment_3883113
I had a bot who walked over and teabagged while I was healing somebody. There was another one that was like walking against my butt instead of walking around to the other side to go heal the person.
This is a frequent thing I encounter. Bots having trouble joining a heal and bots just standing there watching as two survivors heal a third instead of doing something useful.
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@TonTon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3883250#Comment_3883250
They transformed auto mori into the basekit mori like you said that's not scrapped heck they scrapped basekit unbreakable and even the twins rework but 2v8 is simply to huge a project to simply be scrapped it will be changed but never gone permanently
They tried a massive game overhaul. By the end of it they gave a basekit item that probably took the absolute bare minimum of effort to code.
@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3883246#Comment_3883246
Tbh, Im all for it. I personally think the 'us vs them' thing makes the game more immersive.
Buuuuuut it does make more problems than not, sadly. So I did my obligatory 'now now, behave' thing.
Anyway, I'm sick of killers like yourself! So we can discuss! In a civil manner of course.
Ah hem. "Killers have it easy at the moment, and this is irrefutable. Factually, killers shouldn't be losing, even against seal team SWFs. Why are you having problems? Need more hours under thine belt?"
Ah hem. "Killers have it easy at the moment, and this is irrefutable. Factually, killers shouldn't be losing, even against seal team SWFs. Why are you having problems? Need more hours under thine belt?"Why won't killers just suck it up and stop whining about their long queue times! (actually typing this while waiting in a killer queue, making use of my queue time).
Though that is kind of a point. Why are survivor complaints about the game and not wanting to play somehow less valuable than the killers complaining about long it takes to get a match?
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@TonTon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3883214#Comment_3883214
Can't force you to play but they can certainly filter people just want there own way and try to ruin devs hard work
The devs likely spent a lot of time working on the basekit unbreakable mechanic and the auto mori that happened with everyone being down. They trashed that and said they were still working on it, before eventually just releasing a basekit mori.
If the customers don't like something, the amount of work put into it doesn't matter. That's the sunk cost fallacy.
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Maybe I just need to hit a really good one, but Nurse doesn't seem that strong in 2v8. Most killers are going to get downs, her lack of ability to get around the map is a huge weakness. So far, hearing her blink sound is a massive wave of relief, while in 1v4 its an oh no moment.
I might bump Nemy down even more.
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We seem to be having a few posts around here that imagine a video game company can force players to play the game.
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@Inosennatoki said:
2v8 in the first round, it feel balanced.
2v8 in the second 2, it become a survivor sided and generator is so fast
What are your thoughts on 2v8 in the third round?
8 person SWF > 2 person killer > soloq > 2 random killers.
Not sure where lesser SWF groupings would fit in there, way too many possible variations. But two bot teammates is a huge weakness.
A huge part of the balance is on how well the 2 killers work together. If either killer is a weak link, they are in trouble.
The other issues is that in 1v4 the game defaults to the extreme scenarios (4e or 4k). 2v8 has a lot more middle ground type results (which I think is overall more healthy).
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3882811#Comment_3882811
To be fair, I believe the Dev's are trying to make the game more fun for survivors. Adding more classes, maps, and items to use in the trials. Its not a perfect system they have going but effort is being made.
From version 1 to 2 this sounded like a true statement, but from version 2 to 3? We got one thing that made it actively less enjoyable (bots) and a thing many survivors loathe (legion).
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@Dadeordye said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3883123#Comment_3883123
I've just escaped through the gates and in all the matches I was indeed a Medic.
So far it didn't worked. :(
Thanks for replying :)Try unselecting the challenge, exiting the game, coming back in and selecting it again.
I had no problem with the medic tome, but doing the above has fixed bugged challenges in the past for me.
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@ThatRyanB said:
Hey there folks. Popping in here to let you know that our Community Team is treating collecting and sharing feedback with the team as our top priority today. While I'm seeing general comments about how folks feel about bots in here (which we are also sharing with the team), I'd also love to dig into the specifics of how you're feeling, as these can often be the most useful feedback points.
If there are specific instances of bots doing things that you've liked or have found disruptive in 2v8, I'd love to hear them.It's their general playstyle. Just had a game where every survivor was dead or on death hook, and neither bot had been hooked yet. This means survivors are being eliminated more quickly, without hooks being spread the catch up mechanic isn't working. They seem to be good at avoiding ever getting in chase with killers, which makes it kind of pointless.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3882879#Comment_3882879
Yeah, I mean if you're going to bury your head in the sand and ignore that it helped Killer's deal with SWF by closing that gap, idk how to help you. All you've been doing is arguing semantics. "It helped against ALL Survivors" Yeah, no #########. They understand that punishing people for playing with their friends is dumb. Killers didn't need help dealing with Solo Q, they never have. It doesn't take a lot of thought to figure out why these changes were made.
Once again, semantics, but I could've been more clear. Both had extremely strong interactions and were overtuned. They are both still good, along with Grim, now that I'm thinking about it.
Excellent strawman. No, that is not even remotely what I said. To reiterate, we've moved too far into the other direction. Most maps have massive dead zones and where there are not dead zones, there are bad tiles that may buy you five seconds if played perfectly. That is not good design. It certainly benefits all Killer players, especially bad ones, but that does not make it good design.
Here's why:
It takes away Survivor skill. It is skillful to know how to run a loop, especially against all 33 (?) Killers in the game. When you fill maps with dead zones and pallets that are "stun or die" like the aforementioned Coldwind middle of cornfield pallets or Haddonfield pallets, that feels bad for Survivors since they have no way to reasonably and effectively express their skill.
It dumbs down the Killer experience. This has been something going on for a while, probably since Overbrine Eruption. The average Killer today knows how to apply regression, and they know how to tunnel. They are not very good at chases and it shows. I believe this is because they didn't need to be for a while, due to how strong slowdown was/is AND due to how new maps are laid out.
This will usually work out fine, but when they come up against some bad RNG, they crumble, hence we get a lot of Killers still thinking that Survivors are too strong and that maps are busted. They've simply never had to learn.
Once again, to reiterate because I know you'll want to try to say it, I do not want to return to infinites. No, I also do not want to return to old Cowshed. I'd rather have something like old Mac maps, sans infinites. Strong tiles, sure, but they are spaced out so they aren't all on top of each other. Skill expression for both Killer and Survivor.
How is communication strong enough to offset the loss of perks? Here's Jim and James.
James: Hey Jim, I'm taking this Trickster to Shack since it's a high-walled structure, I know DS doesn't do anything right now and he's kinda laggy, so you better leave so he doesn't tunnel you.
Jim: Got it, I'll leave so I don't get tunneled out immediately and have the game be functionally over after two minutes, thanks James!
or
Jim: Hey James, if you have to leave Shack, there's just a weird haybale filler in the middle of the field. You know, the one the Killer can just lunge around either side of the "loop".
James: Yeah, I know it, thanks for the heads-up, can you see anything else nearby?
Jim: No, but this Claudette is healing me, so maybe we can try to get a save if you go down in the pallet?
James: Sure, if I make it out of Shack we can try that, that'd be a crazy save!
Now if we were in Solo Q….
That first scenario would probably end in Jim getting tunneled out after James leads the Killer to Shack since Trickster is great at tunneling off of hook.
That second scenario would be almost impossible.
Itisskillful to know how to run a loop, especially against all 33 (?) Killers in the game.It's funny how easy to forget that we are already up to 38 killers in the game.
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@ObsidianButterfly said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3882561#Comment_3882561
So we just aren't allowed to have interesting or complex killers because a bunch of people don't want to try or don't want to bother reading?
I'm sorry, but making 50 variations of Blight or Billy or whatever dash killer people might not despise at the moment is not a good or healthy design decision. At this point you might as well delete the entire roster and give one killer a million skins that change it into the other characters because that seems to be what people want.
No variety, no thinking, no effort.
So we just aren't allowed to have interesting or complex killers because a bunch of people don't want to try or don't want to bother reading?The key words here are 'a bunch of people don't want'.
This could be: 'a bunch of people don't want the color blue' and it would still apply. The bunch of people are also called customers. And this doesn't just apply to DbD, but any game.
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I really like 2v8 and hope it stays around.
But if the only way forward is 'bots', just throw it into a permanent custom game mode, wash your hands of it, and move on.
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All of the things that made people like or dislike 2v8 are still there, except with more problems, so unless you were really looking for to play as or against the new killers, its a worse version of the last go around.
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@Rudjohns said:
Basekit unbreakable when all survivors are on the ground or hooked
Basekit unbreakable all the time when 2 survivors are left
Faster bleedout will be used to grief the match. Funny to see someone asking for the 4% to be removed and for faster bleedout at the same time (Not saying I see someone but surely it exists) Plus, faster bleedout will buff slugging
Faster bleedout will be used to grief the match. Funny to see someone asking for the 4% to be removed and for faster bleedout at the same time (Not saying I see someone but surely it exists) Plus, faster bleedout will buff sluggingBecause lots of mechanics are situational.
4% because there's already one survivor dead, 4 gens left to go, and another survivor went down? Not a problem, get the match over.
4% because there's one gen left to do, other survivor is in chase? Some people have a problem with the randomness of it, but again the reason is clear.
4% because you were first downed and are rage quitting? Clear problem.
Same with slugging. If I get slugged because I'm in a pallet, the killer is rushing to stop a gen, or there is a nearby survivor, not a problem. Being slugged here is no more of an issue than being on a hook.
Getting slugged and left to bleedout either because:
A: The killer has knockout
B: Slugging for the 4k
C: The killer is so vastly better than the survivors and is just toying with them
D: Killer is BMing and just keeping people stuck in the game
All of those are clear problems. We call all of them 'slugging', just as we call all 4% kobes which confuses the issues, but there are clear differences between when the mechanic serves a functional purpose and when it ruins the game.
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@FearlessHunter said:
Anyone else getting the same thing?
I kinda find it hard to believe that there's not enough survivors to fill in a full match when I was always getting full games in the previous 2v8s.
I kinda find it hard to believe that there's not enough survivors to fill in a full match when I was always getting full games in the previous 2v8s.The way they are displaying it implies the wrong problem.
There are plenty of survivors to group up 8 of them. That's not an issue. The problem is there isn't enough 8 groups of survivors per 2 killers who want to play the game. So now they are taking the survivor pool and spreading it out over more killers. In trying to accommodate the desires of people to play killer, that requires them to put in 2 bots.
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@TheDavidKingMain said:
I thought the devs wanted to make the survivor experience better in 2v8? Because making the game a 2v6 and adding quite literally the most broken killer possible for this mode isn’t really doing that.
I imagine killer queues will be incredibly long in a few days. Absolutely NOBODY will want to queue for survivor after the “newness” of this mode wears off. Absolutely a trainwreck.
I'm pretty surprised how little they did for survivors. Herbs? Green, healing doesn't even take that long in the game. Yellow, at the moment this just seems to be making survivors waste time searching for them. Once the spots are memorized I suspect they will be things the killers destroy right away.
And then the bots and legion make the mode actively less appealing.
From version 1 to 2 there were so many ideas that were implemented. Coming out of v2 there were a lot of ideas suggested and discuss. Many I didn't think would work, but it would have figured some of them would have been tried.
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@Science_Guy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3882500#Comment_3882500
Sure, but faster bleedout doesn't lead to anything fun or enjoyable, it just ends a miserable game/situation faster. If you're looking to make a more enjoyable game, you'd want to do something that discourages unfun situations in the first place, and the OP is correctly pointing out that a faster bleedout does the opposite.
the OP is correctly pointing out that a faster bleedout does the opposite.In a vacuum, yes, but this presumes the idea is just 'faster bleedout' with no other modifier or trigger.
If you're looking to make a more enjoyable game, you'd want to do something that discourages unfun situations in the first place,Conceptually there is an inevitability that there will be some 'unfun' situations that arise in a multiplayer game. The risk of losing is what gives winning its value.
What makes getting slugged unfun? Well, you lose the game, but what makes it so much worse than getting hooked? Well just lying on the ground for 4 minutes is incredibly boring. Its not that getting downed and left is somehow inherently more unfun than getting downed and hooked, its that 'why am I trapped in a video game?' feeling. It's only an unfun situation because of what can transpire when it occurs.
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Well I think limiting it to those two options is overly limiting.
First for me would be changing some killer perks, notably knockout. Slugging could still be a part of the game, but not an entire build you could make.
Then I would make faster bleedout, with conditions. Mainly there being multiple dead or also downed survivors, This is to speed up slugging for the 4k.
Then I'd probably increase the basekit crawl speed, maybe even make it so you could crawl and recover to a limited degree. That's a less necessary thing to look at.
If after all of that we still had issues, we could talk about more radical changes.
@Science_Guy said:
You're completely right. Faster bleedout would just turn slugging into an even more consistent, more desirable win con. For precisely this reason, I've always been amazed that it's such a highly-requested option by survivors. As easy as it is to criticize BHVR for how they do and don't balance the game, and as much as they deserve it, things like this do remind you that the community as a whole is also really terrible at understanding/fixing issues with the game.
Balance is an important discussion.
A more important discussion is having an enjoyable game. I don't mind losing, its part of games, but I don't want to feel like I'm watching paint dry as a video game.
Not that I think its a tradeoff, but hypothetically if it was, I would gladly accept a higher kill rate if it would significantly reduce how boring DbD is at points.
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https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/438269/would-it-be-unfair-to-have-certain-killers-like-nurse-only-get-survivor-sided-maps
Let me approach it more broadly.
Would it be unfair to have certain killers only get maps that they were balanced for?
No, not unfair.
Against the concept of the game. Yeah, absolutely.
If it was done just to say the Nurse, it would also feel like throwing in the towel on the devs part. 'We don't know how to fix it, here, she can only play on these maps from now on.'
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@TragicSolitude said:
At the minimum killers should not get normal blood points. Cut it by half at least to show hey you won, but not really.
I'm not sure why we still have the killer role at all anymore, really. BHVR should just make killers NPCs. It would make balancing a lot easier. No more add-ons, no needing to try to make the match fun and balanced for two different sides, no needing to take BP away from the killer. Survivors outnumber killers 4 to 1 anyway, might as well get rid of the straggler role.
I'm sort of being ironic there… but sometimes I really do wonder why the killer role exists at all anymore. It often seems like a large amount of the playerbase would prefer if killers just went away. These are all just people playing a game, and you're saying that you don't like the way BHVR designed the role, so let's punish the people who play the role by halving the reward they receive.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3881773#Comment_3881773
The devs use add-ons to give players choices. Like Spirit's add-ons. The way they balance Spirit, they start with a baseline. The devs probably consider her a bit weak at the baseline. Then, the player can choose how to make her stronger. Faster recharge speed or faster movement speed or longer phase-walk time. The devs can't give her all those things at baseline, she'd be too strong. And if the devs choose which ones they prefer and make those basekit while removing add-ons entirely, players would all disagree, saying, "No, she feels garbage now, I preferred buffing this other part of her kit."
Killers are designed with weaknesses in their kit and players choose which parts of their kit are important to them, sometimes at a great cost (like Trapper's Trapper Sack).
Edit: Edited because I realized most of the final paragraph was unnecessary and deviated from the point I was making.
Two different things in this post.
I'm sort of being ironic there… but sometimes I really do wonder why the killer role exists at all anymore. It often seems like a large amount of the playerbase would prefer if killers just went away.1: I feel this way about killers at points. Soloq is far too weak, SWF is far too strong, and I'm not sure what they want. Arguably they want SWFs, that they still usually beat.
2: If it was a PvE game the unbalanced nature would make sense.
As a soloq survivor, I feel the game is pretty heavily killer sided. I don't mind a challenging game, but losing to a human who has an edge always feels a little weird.
It would be like playing a game and spotting the other player 10 points. Maybe the other person wins, but what does it really matter when they were given a handicap.
And even if the strong role isn't killer, the issue remains. Whatever side has the advantage, losing to them will always feel strange and winning will feel unfulfilling.
Hypothetically, if it was a PvE game, players could set the difficulty to anything they want. It feels a lot different to lose a biased game against a computer than it does a person (but other than that, PvE would likely be awful even if it got a ton of attention).
Second topic:
The devs probably consider her a bit weak at the baseline. Then, the player can choose how to make her stronger.The problem I have with this: what is the baseline? Brown, yellow, etc? Because right now if I lose to a killer running absolute best addons its like, yeah, of course the killer won, they gave themselves the handicap. And if the killer runs no addons, I'm like what an amazing killer, that was really impressive on their part.
Where's the line though where I should neither think the killer gave themselves too much strong stuff nor did they overcome a handicap the match was fair?
This is a both sides issue as well, losing to four survivors all with syringes has a somewhat similar feeling.
The answer might be: none of us should worry that much about it. Which I think is an absolutely fine position to take. But if anyone is concerned with balancing the game, addons seem the obvious place to begin.
Ideally, to me, the baseline should be clearer and any addon past the baseline should carry pros and cons to keep it even. That ship has sailed long ago I suspect, but I feel like a lot of difficulties about the game flow from that.
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@TonTon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3881985#Comment_3881985
Except there was actual confirmation by the devs and yet still they believed it was gonna be forced cause there doomers
The first post about this issue went up by WolfePhD from an organization that publishes the game.
It was a little over 29 hours later that a dev chimed in to say 'actually, not always'.
In that thread, post Mandy making the clarification, there appears to be one clear post that didn't see the update. Everyone else got back to discussing the merits of whether it is a good idea or not at all.
Because we're all in wait and see mode to see whether this is a very rare occurrence, or almost all the time, because we don't have precise information on how bad the situation has to be for BHVR to implement this.
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@Icaurs said:
I have played this game since 2017 on and off. That's not to comment about my skill, just that I have seen the game change a lot. In early DBD which strove to create a wacky fun experience for all players I supported killer addons, old flashlights, medkits and everything else. But eventually the direction changed to one of balance.
This game is the most balanced it has ever been. So why are killer addons still viable? I mean they seriously nerfed toolboxes, medkits and keys. Sure that's all fine, but why can I throw on addon that boosts my killer power? Even small changes have big impact. Look at made for this with it's 3% increase. So you can't argue that even small boosts in killer power don't have a huge impact. The more power addons are like versing completely different killers. If a killer needs the addon, then why not make it basekit and remove the all addons. There is no reason most killers need a power boost.
At the minimum killers should not get normal blood points. Cut it by half at least to show hey you won, but not really. If you are going to say well remove survivor items as well. Might as well most of them have been nerfed into inconsequence.
One of my biggest complaints about the games is addons, both on the killer and survivor side. Its one of the things that turned me off from the game when it first released (when there was stuff like 'auto complete a gen'). I've always hated how the game felt like it had a difficulty slider (sweaty) about how people want to play.
Conceptually, MMR should deal with this. If a player constantly plays overpowered addons they'll get moved to a higher MMR where things will balance out. In my experience that kind of happens, when I see killers running over powered addons they tend to not be that good at the game, and usually when I get stomped by a killer they're not actually running anything. However, MMR is frequently unreliable and complained about, and this system breaks down at the margins anyway.
That said, addons are necessary to create variety within the game. I wish though that all addons were pro/con in their approach. Sadly I think the design is way too baked into how the games works to ever be changed.
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The specific example you cited? No. It would feel absurd.
Also on a mechanic level having something like a tire, or even like Christine from Stephen King, just wouldn't fit within the game.
But this isn't about silliness as much as it is fitting in within the genre of the game. A giant monster (pick your choice of movies) wouldn't work.
If we're talking about horror comedies, something like Happy Death Day (probably better examples), I wouldn't be enthused for the idea, but I wouldn't outright reject it as ruining the game.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3881334#Comment_3881334
yeah. rare. so rare that i am end up playing vs it every 8 games or so.
I'm actually just confused on definitions here.
Out of how many games would something need to happen to be rare? 1 out of 8? Well that definitely not common. Rare, unusual, uncommon, it seems to be splitting hairs on that point.
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@TonTon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3881080#Comment_3881080
I actually was cause the abilities were a lot of fun good try making that a diss though
Then what's your point? I liked the last version of 2v8 as well and would be quite happy as well if returned as is, even though I think there are plenty of improvements that can be made.
The group that needs to be convinced to play survivors, are the ones who currently play killer.
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@tjt85 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3881304#Comment_3881304
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3881312#Comment_3881312
To be fair to BHVR, we represent a tiny fraction of the player base (and a weirdly dedicated one at that).
So while a majority on the forums might be dead set against adding bots to 2 Vs 8, there might not be a huge negative reaction beyond here. Lots of games already use bots to shorten queues, so it's not going to be a big deal to a lot of players.
Besides, I don't think the bots will be as bad as people think. I suspect a lot of Survivors in 2 Vs 8 are pretty new to the role anyway and bots might be a little bit more active as teammates. It's such a chaotic, low stakes, casual mode that many players probably find it to be a good way to dip their toe into playing Survivor for the first time.
To be fair to BHVR, we represent a tiny fraction of the player base (and a weirdly dedicated one at that).So while a majority on the forums might be dead set against adding bots to 2 Vs 8, there might not be a huge negative reaction beyond here.This is definitely a possibility.
I suspect a lot of Survivors in 2 Vs 8 are pretty new to the role anyway and bots might be a little bit more active as teammates.This creates its own problems.
1: Bots don't play fair (kind of obvious being they aren't humans). If they actually pose a challenge to killers, that's not really fun either. I neither want to play against or be carried by a wall hacking bot.
2: There's a difference between being angry at another human, and being angry at code. The first scenario is part of multiplayer games, the second makes you angry at the devs themselves.
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@Deathstroke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3881083#Comment_3881083
Addons only change killer powers. But for offerings I think they should let all other offerings used though just not anniversary cakes. Last time the 150% bp bonus was not much at all.
Typo on my part, I meant offerings instead of addons.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3880767#Comment_3880767
Yeah, they don't draw the obvious conclusion that these perks like Resurgence, Second Wind, Moment Of Glory, Clean Break, are pseudo instaheals. If you last long enough in chase, or not even in chase, you get automatically healed while potentially progressing the objective at the same time. That is beyond broken. That's like a killer perk that regresses all gens as long as a survivor is on hook. It forces your opponent to commit to a bad option just to play around another bad option. If they let you go, you get healed for free. If they chase you as to not give you the free heal, you're still forcing them to choose to chase you, and you might still get healed.
The other perks aren't bad either. You said it. 30s of 10% Haste and extra time on hook? What's to scoff about that?
That is beyond broken.That's like a killer perk that regresses all gens as long as a survivor is on hook. It forces your opponent to commit to a bad option just to play around another bad optionIt would be crazy if there was a killer perk that regressed all gens at any point the survivors let go of them, and the only way to deal with it was for the survivors to go into a lose lose situation of either living with guaranteed regression or wasting time on a side objective that might play into other killer perks that the survivors have no way to know about ahead of time.
I can't even imagine how a perk like that would RUIN the game.
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@hermitkermit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3880972#Comment_3880972
Both roles are have tacitcs and playstyles that have criticisim and can be considered unfair, a crutch, or toxic by whomever deems them to be so. The reason why tactics like Tunneling and Slugging are so heavily criticized and receive more backlash is because the effort you put in compared to the value you get out is not comparable to anything else in the game.
To explain it simply, a possible comparable to slugging for killer is getting blinded. Both render the particpant mostly incapacitated, unable to work towards their main objective for differing amounts of time. So Lightborn, the counter to blinding, let's say it now would work like a counter to slugging, UB or a counter to tunneling, OTR.
This would mean that Lightborn now:
Has a cool down (you can only resist a blind every 60 seconds), an activation requirement (you must hook someone before it activates) and it was not free (either get it through the shrine or you have to buy a character).
Meanwhile, the survivors ability to blind you does not require a perk slot, has no restrictions, no activation requirements, no cool down, nor does it require an item to use. And it also, passively, works towards their main objective in the end but circumvents the intended mechanics, meaning they all would be able to escape without doing any gens so long as they keep you incapacitated for a set amount of time.
This is the core issue with tactics like Tunneling and Slugging. When compared to other tools in the game—perks, add-ons, items, or even killer abilities—none offer such an extreme level of value with so little investment or some kind of trade-off. They all have cool downs, they all have restrictions, activation requirements, or can only be done a certain number of times. Even killers entire powers have a combination of those things listed above. Thus, the heavy criticism.
The reason why tactics like Tunneling and Slugging are so heavily criticized and receive more backlash is because the effort you put in compared to the value you get out is not comparable to anything else in the game.I think this is correct, but also there's more to it.
Part of the problem with tunneling and slugging is what happens after that. Slug a survivor and they get to what? Just lay on the ground and wait? Who wants to do that.
There have been lots of matches where another survivor has been tunneled or the killer has slugged and I'm thinking 'great, killer won, can we just move on already'.
There's lots of matches were I envy the tunneled target, picturing them happy as can be in the next match already.
The simplicity is part of it for sure, but that it just creates a boring game is another huge problem.
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@Deathstroke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3881009#Comment_3881009
You have some good ideas I would also prefer add ons so bp would be useful. Also would want items to be added for survivors so bp useful for both sides and make the game more fun. I still would give survivor buff who is chased by 2 killers at same time to give them bit of fighting chance.
1: Items - I thought about this in comparison to improving chests. It's definitely an option.
2: Addons (edit: I meant offerings) - While I would welcome the BP, I think BHVR's theory is that long term this would destabilize the overall game. 10 cakes in a match would be quite a thing.
More broadly, I think the idea of 2v8 is to reduce some of the sweaty elements in pre-game selection. And I welcome that part, though I understand opinions differ, but they definitely need to think to think of something about offerings or it will always be a weird missing point of the game.
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@TonTon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3881056#Comment_3881056
So you clearly stated they did add something new rebuilding pallets your just never satisfied about what they add they added ults, which is new, a comeback mechanic which is new
You still didn't state what you wanted I guarantee if they even added something "New" I know y'all will just continue whine about it not being enough.
Even if devs drastically changed the surv gameplay you would just feel stale about it in a week and complain about it again and should reevaluate yourself
I have a list up above if you want to see suggestions.
But I presume you spend 2v8 just doing nothing but playing survivor because you are thrilled with it?
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@HolyDarky said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/438104/bots-are-coming-to-2v8
What is your suggestion how the devs can make the survivor role more fun?
I feel like it is really difficult to make the survivor role more fun without overwhelming the players with complex things. I'm not a fan of adding bots to 2v8 since sometimes they work really poorly and both sides can suffer from it but, on the other hand, 10 - 20 minutes qtimes feels awful.
@OnryosTapeRentals is correct that 2v8 is fundamentally flawed in many ways. But I'll give it a go on how they can make it more fun.
1: A few more classes, and more variety within the class. As an example, let the escapist choose from different exhaustion perks for their personal use (though keep sprint burst as the aura perk).
2: Ultimates that actually make the game interesting. Scout has a good one. A player has to think about where to rebuild a pallet, do you waste time going for the best location or just use it nearby, do you get off a gen to do it, etc? The medic and gen guy have ults that can be powerful, but don't make the game more interesting, and the escapists is just kind of garbage.
3: While balance has been improved substantially, there is still the core issue that the best killer strategy is to tunnel someone out right away. The catch up mechanic needs to be designed more around this than the hook states (and/or they need to consider other base kit measures).
4: Killers should be encouraged to be apart, not together. From a balance perspective, killers teaming up isn't an issue, from a fun perspective it is. It's a boring game to be surrounded by two killers (and boring for the other 7 survivors doing gens).
5: Killer classes should be tossed entirely and replaced with something akin to current addons to allow customization by killer (okay, not a pure survivor issue, but I think it would make the mode a lot better).
6: Make chests more interesting and/or powerful. This could be done by either reducing randomization so survivors that want a particular item can try and find it, or increasing the power of items to justify the randomness.
7: Unless they add a boon class, give some reason beyond BPs for totems.
8: Allow those who play survivor to get priority in the killer queue (again, not a fun issue, but would balance queues out a lot better than just putting in bots).
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@Science_Guy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3880952#Comment_3880952
Who knows. 2v8 and RE are the two most popular things BHVR has ever done, so combining them is probably going to make for a successful event no matter what, sadly. People who actually care enough to check forums or news are a small minority of the player base.
That said, it would be hilarious if enough survivors hate the idea of playing with bots so much that it actually makes queue times worse. It'd take one out of four survivors deciding they won't play with bots for queue times to be just as bad. Any more than that and queues would be worse.
I think you are generally correct in that it won't impact most players desire to join up for the game, but I do think there's a longer term risk. Survivor will feel worse, but is it going to be enjoyable to play killer if its a mixed single player / multiplayer game?
2v8 is the only one they've talked about making a permanent game mode given its reception. I think it will definitely feel worse for survivors for having bots, and while shorter queue times probably will feel good in the short run, long term I suspect killers will lose interest as well.
I do agree, it would be hilarious if it backfired so hard that queue times worsened.
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@CursedPerson said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3880863#Comment_3880863
Long set up time, small effective radius, and easily found snuffable before anyone can get value
And if the killer doesn't slug,, a completely dead perk slot. Also limits the area where survivors can take chase, making the killers job of getting downs easier.
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@WolfePhD said:
Finally, the devs are adding two Survivor bots to every lobby in an effort to reduce potential Killer queue times.Lol, two bots? As a default? Not even 'this is our last resort if our other improvements don't help' type of thing.
I suspect it will actually work, at least in the short term. Long term, it kind of makes the game and the mode look like a joke. The idea of having bots in the game as a default (and not an emergency replacement) really brings down the idea of a multiplayer game. Then we have the balance issues with how strong the bots are.
An unfortunate development.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3880568#Comment_3880568
You are saying that survivors are "wasting time coming for a save" but ignore the fact that to get the save it takes far less time then it did for the killer to get the down, you are still in the mindset of "average solo queue games" where chases last 15 seconds. The average chase in high MMR games (not whatever BHVR calls high mmr, actual high mmr) is far longer than that.
I'll start by saying you once asked me never to tag you in a post again, but being you tagged me first I'm going to respond.
"wasting time coming for a save"So I typed over 800 words and you pull out the ending of a sentence? You're missing a number of things
1: I'm responding to a video. The video creator said he gained nothing from the chase, implying the chase was worthless. That's untrue. You're treating my words as if they are not in response to a specific statement.
2: Without the survivor perspective we have no idea on the time trade off. This is a pure presumption on your part and the creators. Did the survivor with the flashbang chase around instead of doing gens? Did the survivor who went down do so because they knew the save was nearby, and if it wasn't they could have extended the chase more? Not to mention the risks associated with getting spotted (like the killer did in the second discussed game) or the trade off in what other perks could have been run.
3: You try to make this about MMR, but the killer here won the match, with Trapper, after a flashbang save. Either this isn't a high MMR match or discussions about mythical high MMR are overrated.
4: Much like the video, it ignores a 'what if' the perk selection was different. If instead the killer slugs, but instead of flashbang the survivor has We're Gonna Make It, the killer still loses out. There seems to be a lot of confusion among some killers over differences in discussion between 'good strategy' and 'good strategy given the meta'.
The things you say about mindset are just kind of presumptive and silly.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
There are only two reasons:
It's easy to do and hard to counter.
Content creators started promoting it.
Everything else in your list is more than 6 months before any real issues occurred, and are only there because this community on the forums largely believes that "we'll keep making people's games miserable until you buff us" is somehow a good way to convince the devs to change the game or fix perceived issues.
Until this literally bully mentality. The true reason slugging occurs for a lot of people is simply to make people miserable and take advantage of the imbalance of the power role in the game. We saw the same exact thing with the 3 gen meta.
"we'll keep making people's games miserable until you buff us" is somehow a good way to convince the devs to change the game or fix perceived issues.'Until BHVR undoes the changes to medkits and Circle of Healing, my SWF and I are going to gen rush with commodious toolboxes every game and brag about it on Twitch and Youtube!'
Cut to: Shocked when BHVR nerfs toolboxes.
This would be the survivor equivalent, which never really happens. I agree, I don't get what people are thinking by slugging thinking that will make BHVR do anything but nerf slugging. We have the equivalent of the guy who was 3 genning with "Chess Merchant" to time out matches, except he was probably trolling to get SM nerfed.
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@Dadeordye said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aInEGwk2TtE
Just wanted to share this here.
The perfect video (at least in my opinion) on why slug became meta and what needs to be considered to fix it.Thoughts on the video, if this is actually your video my apologies for being blunt.
First 2:30 - discussion about how common slugging is. I feel like that's a different topic.
2:30 to 3:00 - seems to be taking a clear killer sided view of what survivors think. I think he misrepresents, but ultimate conclusion of 'no one should be responsible for anyone else's fun' is correct (well, someone should be, that being BHVR).
3:00 to 3:30 - going at survivors, but I think his logic is off. The vast majority of players I see want BHVR to change the game. Sure, barring that, they'd like killers to not exploit the obvious game problems, but priority should be on BHVR.
Also wrong about survivors. The comparable example of how survivors consider killers fun is that they frequently don't use the best items or builds. I constantly, as killer or survivor, see survivors running no items.
Up to 4:00 - not really sure how this relates
First 4:00 - video is trying to frame the argument, but is creating a strawman to frame against.
4:00 to 5:15 - A classic 'sure, I won the game anyway, but…' The killer gained nothing? They destroyed a bunch of pallets, injured the survivor, and another survivor wasted time coming in for the save.
If the lurking survivor had healing perks and the killer left the survivor slugged, he'd have lost even more.
This falls into the argument of 'slug, because the survivor meta counters hooking'. But if the meta changes to killers slugging and survivors adapt their perks, then slugging won't be advantageous.
5:15 to 7:45 - Scenario 2, this time he notices the lurking survivors. If he'd noticed them in scenario 1 it would not have transpired the same way.
Also he keeps saying 'not easy mode' despite the story sound like 'easy mode'.
7:45 to 10:30 - he needs to split up these categories on pro / cons. We're mixing so many different groups that the count doesn't really matter.
Missing the big obvious one - against a SWF, especially if they have any anti-slug perk, you're going to have to chase and down the survivors many more times than you would by hooking them.
Also I feel like slugging as a killer would get boring quickly. The hooks add another element to the game, taking that out removes a lot of deeper game elements.
10:30 to 15:30 - A lot of perk discussion, but also a good example of how players will optimize the fun out of a game. I'm watching the video in the background and wondering how the killer is actually enjoying this game, nevermind the survivors.
16:30 to End - "If the survivor is on the ground, they were outplayed". Survivors will end up on the ground, the killer will catch them. That's an awful argument to justify something that isn't a fun game.
This would be like if a generator got completed and the killer was frozen in place for a minute and survivors said 'you shouldn't have let the gen get completed, you got outplayed'. No, some gens will get done, that's expected.
"The longer your queue times will get" the inverse is also true, and I think as 2v8 has shown, too many people wanting to play killer is a much harder problem to fix than too many people wanting to play survivor.
He's really deviating from his earlier argument about no one should care about anyone's fun. He's also presuming that the reason DbD made changes was survivor complaints, and not their data + desire to shake up the meta.
He gets into how survivors can use some anti-tunnel perks offensively. I'm not sure if he means this as a balance issue or a fun issue, but this is really coming across as 'how dare survivors try to slow me down',
Overall
A lot of his argument is about meta. If survivors were bringing different builds, his slugging playstyle would gain just as little as fearing flashbangs.
What he finds fun I find strange. He talks about getting hit with a DS as not fun, but I'm watching him play a game were 3 survivors are slugged while he goes around the map, placing traps, trying to find the last survivor. This looks like the most possible boring game I could imagine. Despite all the talk about fun, his desire for the game seems to be 'win via the simplest measures possible'.
Faster bleedout has been asked for for a long time. Slugging becoming more common has just made it more of an issue.
The fact that fixing one issue (the power level of some killer perks) which led to a new problem (slugging meta), does not mean the first solution was incorrect. Improving something is a series of steps where you make corrections as new problems emerge.
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I'll disagree with everyone else and say I think its a pretty good idea.
Is it worth the time investment on BHVR's part? That I don't know.
But if there was a story mode where you needed to play and escape some matches, then get some story segments, I'd be into it. A different way to communicate the lore.
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Going to agree with some others that a bully squad is one that isn't interested in doing the gens, they just want to harass the killer.
A squad that dedicates time to slowing down the killers objective so they can accomplish their own is a strategy. It may, or may not, be a balance issue, but that's a different thing.
It's like killers that slug. Slugging and rushing to stop a gen from being finished, perfectly acceptable. Slugging for the 4k, annoying, but BHVR leaves it in the game. Slugging and letting the survivors just bleed out for 4 minutes, bullying and toxic.
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@shadow_V said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3880174#Comment_3880174
Why is it just me? Why can't it be 500 or even 5000 people of the community? You assume I'm just some crying little survivor main but in reality my opinion/look on things could be a 1000 other people's opinion sooooo many people talk on how horrible the game has gotten because the decisions they've made right there should tell you there's a problem I'm literally speaking my piece stop trying to shove it in my fudging mouth that I don't like the decisions they've made damn right I don't like it because I don't want to get slugged and camped every match and utterly destroyed to the point I HATE the game I love playing so much most nights I play for 4-5-6 hours and only maybe if I'm lucky make it out of a handful of matches so yes I don't like it but instead of overlooking it maybe take a step back to realize there's a problem
Why is it just me? Why can't it be 500 or even 5000 people of the community?1: Even if it was 5000 people that would be a tiny portion of the player base.
2: It might be tons of people have your opinion. It might also be they don't.
3: 'The game is dying' posts come along all the time. The game will die eventually. That's inevitable, but there's nothing about the direction of player count numbers that makes it look like it will happen anytime soon.
sooooo many people talk on how horrible the game has gotten because the decisions they've made right there should tell you there's a problemPeople always talk about how the game has problems. When I got into the game a few years ago it sounded like I was getting in at the tail end with how people talked about it.
A big issue is that people, broadly, disagree about what those problems are and the direction the game development should go. DbD exists in the middle ground between a lot of people who say they are unhappy with the game for different reasons, but keep playing it.
I'm literally speaking my pieceYou're welcome to give your opinion on the game or any aspect of it.
And as its a discussion forum, people will comment on those opinions.
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1: There's a difference between BHVR killing their game, and you not liking decisions they've made. We all have complaints about DbD, but their player count remains quite high.
2: Yes, DbD is killer sided. By design. I think they go to far on this, but its been that way for a while.
3: Hooks not respawning wasn't a huge problem, but it also wasn't a huge buff. BHVR is trying to fix the right thing here: points were the game grinds to a crawl. Even if rare, and even if the killers fault, killers getting into a position were they couldn't hook the survivor wasn't fun for anyone who wasn't trolling.
4: Taking away gen tapping made for a better game, even if somehow many killers don't seem to have realized they got the better end of the anti-3 gen changes.
5: Moring the last survivor has led to more slugging, but the hook counts that survivor has isn't really relevant. Getting hooked would kill the survivor all the same.
6: I think the events have been more mixed than you do. The game is killer sided, it remains killer sided in events.
7: I don't think Hex: Ruin actually sets the gen back 5%, you're just seeing the 5% that needs to be repaired to stop the gen regression (could be wrong on this, but think that's what it is).
8: Aura perks are quite strong and BHVR has made stealth play incredibly risky.
9: AFC was a substantial improvement. I think it could be a little stronger, but it radically changed my game experience.
10: Slugging is a problem and I hope BHVR has a plan for it.
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I believe a dev has said dropping and picking up an item to avoid crows is not abusive.
They would need to be doing this for like 15+ minutes. I think that is the standard for not engaging in normal gameplay.
I think lots of that is absurd, but that's my understanding of their reporting standards.
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Because I enjoy the game.
There are things I would change, and I take breaks from playing, but I enjoy DbD. It gives an experience like no other game I've ever played (and I'm coming up on 40 years since I played my first video game).
I don't have server problems and the bugs can be annoying, but I don't find it to be as frequent a game breaking experience as some do. It has some game elements that I loathe and I would rip out if I could, but also a lot of wonderful and unique experiences that I don't find in any other game.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3879170#Comment_3879170
There aren't that many comparisons because not many killers really have extraneous stuff like Wesker does. I didn't want to be too forward with my position because I wanted to get a sense for other people's opinions on Wesker's overall design and how the individual parts of his kit fit into the whole, but I can definitely elaborate a little on that here.
To me, it's a question of asking what the parts of a kit do for the whole. In some cases for Wesker, it's obvious- for instance, his pseudo-instadown at max infection is meant to make the Virulent Bound more threatening than it already is, and as a direct consequence of that, push survivors towards engaging with the First Aid Spray mechanic.
But then you look at the other elements of the infection and the answer gets less clear. Take the Hindered- it does basically function the same way the pseudo-instadown does, but it can't really be allowed to be too strong or it breaks the balance of his power, leaving it in this sort of halfway state where it exists, and it's potent enough to be noticeable… but only barely, and his power's designed around it not being in play much. Why's it even there? I could absolutely see it being appropriate to replace this instead of remove it, but I'm not convinced it's core to Wesker's power level or identity and I'm pretty sure just outright removing it wouldn't actually harm him very much- which isn't ideal for a killer's power.
After that, the Killer Instinct, which I think is the most obviously "extra and arbitrary" part of his power. If we want survivors to engage with First Aid Sprays, why does Wesker gets notified when they do? The clearest comparison here is Nemesis, who has literally the exact same mechanic… except for him it makes sense, because he needs to keep the infection up for his power to be capable of doing damage, leaving him a little more like Plague where you're taking something away from him but giving him something else. For Wesker, you're hit by the brunt of Virulent Bound either way, so ridding yourself infection is just inviting him to hit you with Virulent Bound again. It's nice for him to have, sure, but how does it actually tie into a coherent gameplay loop?
My opinion is mostly that the core of Wesker's power is well designed, but he has more unnecessary flab surrounding it than other killers do. I don't think it's a huge problem, to be clear, but I do think it's there and it was obvious others didn't feel the same way from how I'd seen conversations about him go in the past.
I guess my next question would be bloated for who?
Playing Wesker, the primary thing you have to worry about is the tentacle power. There are various creative ways you can use that power, but I think that's pretty normal for killers.
As survivor, you have to worry deal with the tentacle strikes and the infection. Neither seems bloated and have meaningful interactions.
I feel like you are counting multiple elements of the same thing in a way that would be true for lots of killers.
You break the tentacle strike down into: its ability to damage and its ability to displace. You break the consequences down into Hindered and Instadown, and then on the cure for giving notifications.
Breaking other killers down the same way will quickly make it look like bloat:
Plague
-Two types of attack, vomit that can hit survivors, gens, pallets, ledges, an infection that takes a healthy state and the survivor makes noise, a cure mechanic that makes noise and opens up a new power
Sadako
-A teleport, that also function as an infection, a slowdown (turning off TVs) that also works as an infection, a fully infected status that also gives killer instinct on top of death, a slow down mechanic (TVs), and invisibility and a lullaby.
I really don't think DbD killers have much of a bloat problem for either survivors (i.e. a killer which would have too much to learn) or killers. There are balance issues, and killers have bloat in that there are just so many of them for new players, but I don't think there's a killer I have an issue with because they are bloated.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3879086#Comment_3879086
I think there's something genuinely interesting about how many people interpreted this question as a comment about strength or counterplay instead of what it was, which is killer design.
So, no, I am not suggesting anything at all here. I'm opening up a conversation about a killer power I think is a little bit bloated to see if anyone has a compelling counter argument.
I'm opening up a conversation about a killer power I think is a little bit bloated to see if anyone has a compelling counter argument.Reading through the thread, there isn't really an "argument". There's a feeling, basically 'doesn't this feel like too many things?'.
Without some standard way to define bloated, we're just going off feelings. To me, and it seems others, no, not at all.
He's got a couple of minor abilities that, as you said, if you removed probably wouldn't make much of a difference, but leaving them in doesn't make much of a difference either. Some killers can be A or S tier from just one ability (Nurse), others require a combination of elements.
Like is there some other killer that you would also say is bloated for comparison sake?