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  • @Rulebreaker said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3507322#Comment_3507322

    The "parents" in this scenario created something for others to enjoy. The "children" are whining and causing trouble and will keep causing trouble regardless despite the fact that the thing they're whining about wouldn't exist without the parents. It would be more accurate to say that strangers are whining to the parents about their child for petty reasons. Blaming the parents seems to us like the easy (and false) way out.

    We can agree to disagree.

  • @Pulsar said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3507105#Comment_3507105

    That's the entire point.

    A 10K hour player shouldn't ever be playing against a 100 hour player and yet, that's the DBD experience.

    Yeah makes me think they're scared to put any new modes in the game as it would make a fresh divide in the already small amount of people still playing.. Like the number of people playing DBD daily is just too small for them to feel comfortable to make a new game mode perhaps.. (shrugs)

  • @Aven_Fallen said:

    It is more the community than anything else. Many players in the community claim that they want to chill and just have fun, but on the other hand they want to win every single game. I have seen Streamers get REALLY upset when they dont win a game, even if they win around 98% of their games.

    And then the same people claim that they are "forced" to play a certain way to win or to have fun. Nope, they are not forced, they want to play that way. I mean, I play Wesker the same for a long time - Nowhere to Hide, Lethal Pursuer, Brutal Strength, Dissolution. And I have fun. Do I win every game? Hell, no. Would I win more games if I would play 4 Slowdowns? For sure. Would I have less fun? For sure as well.

    But I cannot complain that I dont 4K every game if I run a build which is weaker than stacking 4 Slowdowns. And if I stack 4 Slowdowns, I should not say that the game forces me to do that.

    And then you have stuff like Killers slugging for the 4K and Survivors trying to get everyone out. And both sides are upset when it does not work. I mean, if you play Killer and the Survivors barely get 1 Gen and you just downed the third guy, two already dead... Just hook them. You won. You dominated them. No need to waste time, no need to make it even more unfun for the guy on the ground. Same as Survivor - you got 3 people out, one person is camped. Just leave. You won this game. You dont need a 4 man escape. And IF you try to rescue, dont be upset if it does not work and the Killer gets more Kills. (e.g. yesterday, game against Deathslinger... He facecamps my SWF-Mate (1st Hook he got), then the two randoms trade... In the end, 1 random on the Hook, all Gens are done. second Random gets downed via NOED and the person on the Hook was REALLY upset with us leaving... Dont be that guy, really)

    For some reason, this community is unable to accept that they cannot win every game. And on top of that, they are unable to accept that it might have been their fault that they did not win. Instead, everything is blamed on the other side. And it is just sickening.

    I'm of the belief its because the developers don't have good enough tutorials and a grading system to help people understand what they should be doing. As the developer I would let my community know through much better tutorials and grade system than we have now that it is PERFECTLY FINE to get 2 kills. You did good! You killed half of the team and that qualifies as a win for the Killer and win for the 2 Survivors that escaped. I see nothing wrong with that. Why can't both sides win? If it has to do with your ranking system and weird math... Well...just CHANGE the numbers until they meet the new goal.. Its not like they couldn't change the values of anything in the game to match what they wanted it to. They are limited by what they see as a "priority" in their daily list of chores, which unfortunately.. that priority list hasn't included a game health change since.....I can't even remember..tbh :/

  • @MalekithHatesSnow said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3506875#Comment_3506875

    Exactly this. People wanna rag on the devs so much and I agree sometimes the devs make questionable decisions but the community is terribad you're supposed to 3 hook everyone no camping no tunneling no meta killer ok you do that oh but you had the AUDACITY to actually win so you're gonna be called toxic etc etc but if you dont win? The survivors will wait out the entire egc just so you can watch them teabag this game's community is definitely half this game's problem and its partially the devs fault aswell for allowing and even encouraging this behaviour through streamers

    It is still their choice at the end of the day. If a whining child constantly screams to get its way and the parents give in. Who's fault is that? The parents of course. Simple. Anyone blaming the community is sorely mistaken. Blame the parents. Common sense. The parents are the gateway to the problem.

  • @Nirgendwohin said:

    in my eyes, at the end of the game, it's the reward of a match that counts and there is a huge problem with the design of dead by daylight.

    From a suvivor's point of view, if you don't play optimally, you are often punished four times in a single game for dying.

    • The first punishment is you die. You are out of the game. No respawn, simply nothing. No way to comeback or do anything other than start a new game. frustrating if you thought it was a nice match.
    • The second punishment is the amount of bloodpoints you get. If you die early, the amount is just ridiculously small. The current event shows again how ridiculously often the blood points are in relation to getting an invitation in the bloodweb. Have you ever looked for a purple flashlight?
    • The third punishment is you may lose a PIP. The killer wants you out at the start of the game? You can run him for 5 gens and then die while die gates are open and you lose a PIP because you never healed someone or touched a gen. For the other players you are the match hero but the game punish you for it.
    • The fourth punishment is your MMR goes down. That means your team member gets worse in the future, you will lose even more.

    The same applies to the killer, albeit differently. killer mains may explain this better than me

    So is it a community problem or a problem that BHVR brought us? I think it's a problem that the developer created and doesn't understand himself.

    I mean the devs make every decision at the end of the day. They have to do their best to know when to IGNORE the community..and when to listen. I agree that de-pipping shouldn't exist. It is extremely demoralizing especially if you did quite a bit of work to get those pips only to have them instantly gone just because of a few unlucky mishaps or what not. Higher MMR Killers that go against lower MMR groups also have it rough, because if they finish the Survivors off too quickly...the Killer de-pips for that.... W....T....F..?! O.o Extreme efficiency in that scenario equals you get punished... Makes no sense..

  • @Sava18 said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3506895#Comment_3506895

    No you should never be shooting for the new player experience in anything but an actual coop party game. DBD is not that and hasn't been since before I started playing. This game has a learning curve early on(especially for survivors) but if you go even a little out of your way to watch content and learn you can get up to a decent standard quick.

    When a multiplayer pvp game doesn't have some catering towards players who know what they are doing, it dies. Simply.

    I beg to differ. I say if you had something in the DBD new Survivor experience as easy as Candy Crush that also progressed the game state toward the Survivors winning (something much easier than hitting Generator skill checks) I think the game would flourish even more. Due to it being simple AND addictive. What would they add to get this result you ask? Well that's what they are getting paid to figure out. An experience like PVP Candy Crush is what we are shooting for. DBD lacks that "something" that feels fun to do. Its obvious that Generators are not THAT THING for the newer people. Hell, they like hiding in corners more than doing Generators.

    Maybe just make a separate mode called "HIDE AND SEEK" and new people would be all about it. The average new player to a video game doesn't look up and watch as much as we might assume they do. A lot of the time, people hear about the game, so they grab it once its at a low price and try it out without watching anything at all, yet still knowing the gist of the experience. Unfortunately, DBD at its core requires that you have someone literally 1 on 1 guiding you if you want the best results, which really shouldn't be the case if we want to be as popular as Candy Crush..

    I'm not really saying DBD needs to be like Candy Crush.. I'm saying it needs SOMETHING in the experience that is even easier to do for new people than what is currently available to do and also has that addictive feel to it. Something you cannot put down if you wanted to.. I don't think learning how to do specific vaults, trying to get good skill checks (let alone greats), and having to figure out what perks, offerings, and killer powers even are is what is going to keep the new folks. The devs have to go in a different direction, while keeping the game true to its core. Like I said, how they figure that out is up to them.

  • @Pulsar said:

    Not much to this.

    I don't think the game can be played at an average casual level anymore. I don't think you can really come home from a long day at work and play a couple of games on either role without the game being more trouble than it's worth.

    Whether it's problematic Killer designs that are unfun to play against (Legion and Twins), overtuned characters (Blight and Nurse), Skull Merchant or even just the Killer being outright better than you, the casual Survivor experience is bad.

    Whether it's teams that force you to play tactically and try hard, people who abuse certain bugs, people who just like to be frustrating (Boil Over) or just plain good teams; the causal Killer experience isn't much better.

    I think that should change for both roles. I don't think you should need to sink 6 hours into a play session whilst being hyper-aware and uber competitive in order to have a chance to have fun.

    Ya know Pulsar.. We disagree quite often, but you my friend have hit the nail directly on the head. DBD is certainly not a game you can just, as some devs have said in interviews of the past, "Jump in and have fun".. The new player experience is...I hate to say...abysmal.. New players are what the game should be shooting for and thriving off of. Overtime turning them into fans that come back not just because of another Chapter but day after day because of the fun experience they had. Yet everything just keeps getting more convoluted and degenerate.

    I'm not sure how a brand new person is suppose to stick with an experience where such dirty and imbalanced things can happen on each side. Not to mention the amount of time you have to put in just to be a decent Survivor and not get stomped repeatedly seems to be too considerable for most. Even as Killer, beating those brand new Survivors a few times, you suddenly get tossed into a REAL DEAL group of even just a few decent Survivors and get rag dolled like you're nothing which completely turns the POWER ROLE idea on its head especially for newer people who just want to be immersed..

    There are far too many strategies that Killers can use to make the new Survivor experience not pleasant even down to the way some of the Killers are designed at the very core of their power.. (Knight...Skull Merchant..and even Hag) Why can Killers tunnel off hook? Why can they even use their power right next to the hook? Leatherface has made many people I know actually stop playing due to that basement BS.. Seeing that through a new persons perspective would make more people understand those things don't make you want to come back especially if its your very first game..

    Some of the basic principles that went into making DBD just don't work for casual people nowadays. Even on the Killer side.. Why does Trapper have to spend the whole first part of the game picking up his power...when Pig starts with hers by default? Just to be different? Hmm. There are many confusing questions that we will never know the answer to, but hearing you say that makes me realize that no matter how much the fan base might disagree with one another. This side. That side. Whatever. I think we can all agree. Some things. No. MANY things in this game don't feel "fun". They feel cheap or even underhanded. I don't think that is what the devs want, but here we are.. And where do we go from here. I have no idea. I just hope the game gets better someway..somehow..


    Oh yeah..there are a few Killers that can't use their power next to hook are there not? O.o Twins can't and there might be a few more that I'm not thinking of.. That'd really put a damper on some degenerate strategies if Leatherface is next to the basement with a hooked Survivor and can't even click M2.. xD

  • People are noticing more and more the MMR for solo is horrible. Less people want to subject themselves to the 'solo' Survivor experience and its easy to see why. And no don't play Killer. It's even worse.. Play solo Survivor and you're a babysitter.. Play Killer and your not handing out kills but instead, towels to the sweat lords that are trying to keep you out of their personal group spa..

  • @Vanishlord said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3506611#Comment_3506611

    I know Nemisis zombies have helped me on rare occasions but half the time they get stuck. In that case I just destroy them with the tentacle to level it up and get some use out of it. But Knights power is completely reliant on Aiwhich can be a problem.

    Knight is for sure worse. You got that right.

  • I think what most people mean by tunneling is it should be impossible to hook the same Survivor twice unless there is only 1 person left or something. As in, the game shouldn't even allow it to happen. So you hook one person, they get unhooked, you down them again and pick them up, but this time you get a message in ENTITY writing. -"The Entity requires a fresh sacrifice and will not accept the same sacrifice twice in a row."-


    Put in something like that and watch people change the way they play. Then if you have a slugging problem just make the (pick yourself up forever) certain part of No Mither base. BOOM fixed. Now Killers will go after a new person each time and if they slug, the Survivors will just get up on their own. Do whatever is necessary to balance it. The devs could FORCE people to play differently if they really wanted to. Why they are not currently trying to fix that problem? Your guess is as good as mine.

  • Yep Nemesis zombies still get stuck half of the time I use him. Doesn't matter if its an indoor or outdoor map. Maybe they literally can't fix it.. Wouldn't surprise me.

  • The devs have to do a better job of keeping more people around to get the MMR working correctly. Maps are a big reason many people struggle on both sides. Map offerings should be disabled or should function as a way to NOT be sent to that specific map.

  • They should have a ping limit that makes it to where you can't even play with a ping higher than say 60ms?

  • I started when the game was in alpha and I'll be honest and say the only reason I'm still here is for the licenses.

  • @Ayodam said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3505427#Comment_3505427

    Not true. It was designed with SWF in mind, but at the time of the game’s creation they couldn’t do both SWF and KYF. They chose KYF because they thought people would like that more at the start but always intended to add SWF.

    Doesn't change the fact that the game itself still isn't balanced for 4 man SWFs. Pretty funny how many people still try to say it is though.. xD Is the sky green or grass blue to you as well?

  • Only took what..almost 8 years to fix that "bug".

  • @Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:

    Yeah, to any new player that comes across this in their first few games... they aren't staying around lol

    While i know this camping/tunneling thing is a talking point and a clear good strat for the killer, it's still denying BHVR some players. Its literally turning them away from the game. Could be a lot of money gone. Could be a lot of players, maybe not.

    Your move, BHVR

    I've been saying this... The fact that Killers dominate the lower ranks is DBDs problem when it comes to retaining new people.. You can literally just stand in front of the hook and what are the new players going to do? Go save them...? Haha..good one.. -_- I highly doubt the new anti-camp mechanic makes a big difference with this also but I suppose we'll see.

  • @Aven_Fallen said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3505427#Comment_3505427

    Whenever this comes up I facepalm myself.

    The Devs said in a Livestream looong ago that SWF was planned from the start. And that they only had time to implement either KYF (now Custom Games) or SWF when the game first launched. They went with KYF and shortly later (like a month?) they implemented SWF. Do you really think it takes only a month to create a feature like this?

    Furthermore - do you really think that in 2016 a game where one side plays as a team would come without a feature where friends can play together? Or that it is not known that those friends will communicate? Neither Multiplayer-games nor Communication Tools were brand-new things in 2016.

    Might've been planned from the start, but it goes without saying the game wasn't made for team with mics. Of course it was planned. Why wouldn't they make that very obvious choice to let you play with friends.. Was the game balanced around it though. No. It wasn't. Hence the (balanced) game wasn't made with SWF in mind.

  • @FreddyVoorhees said:

    It is obvious cheating . Did devs give killers something to balance this ? Or should killers be able to use external apps as well to counter this ? Its absolutely fair.

    Devs may not know if swf is using chat but nevertheless there should be something to counter this for killers. Some basekit buff that depends on how many players are grouped regardless if they use chat or not. If swf group is not using chat (very rare) they should be fine with killer buffs as nobody is stopping them to use the voice chat in the first place. I mean imagine being carried by the killer and you shout to a person on the other side of the map , the killer will obviously hear you.

    Either buffs against groups or at least disclose what external apps killers are allowed to use too.

    When DBD was first made, it wasn't made with the idea of all 4 people being able to team up 'vocally' in mind... It just became a feature later on. SWF is a huge advantage over Solo so I'd like to see some sort of disadvantage down the line even if its minor.

  • @brokedownpalace said:

    Both of these things are VERY uncomfortable. I don't understand why the second somebody frames something as an accessibility issue you guys spring into action and make changes ASAP but Dredge and boons have been making people uncomfortable for, what, years? And you've done nothing.

    It's a very fortunate thing that Dredge is not popular and boons I can often avoid entirely, but when I have to deal with these things it makes playing this game physically unpleasant which should NEVER be a thing.

    No. They shouldn't make Dredge's power worse. The PTB version of the power was useless. It should stay exactly the way it is.

  • @Mockingjay_S451 said:

    Why is de-pipping still a thing? It’s the single most demotivating mechanic in the game. Nothing like getting paired with a tryhard tunnelling, slugging, camping killer and then you get de-pipped for your troubles. Same as the terrible MMR putting a newer killer with survivors who run them in circles. Losing a pip after a crappy game is like a kick in the teeth.

    Why is there a cap on points for skill checks? If we are going to be forced to sit in 45 mins Dull Merchant matches, why are we penalised on the amount of points we can get for trying to get the same Gen done? Same with healing. Sometimes only a few teammates actually heal, why should those who heal have a max on healing points? It’s like we are being punished for trying to do the objectives.

    I can agree with that. Games should never push you down the ladder when you're not in the..say..top 1000 or something. Very demoralizing..

  • @VirtuaTyKing said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3504738#Comment_3504738

    Na I've have a lot of fun lately. Bad players on your team is the issue not that they are a swf or not.

    Still doesn't change the fact that it's a miserable experience and something could be done to change that. It's the devs job to figure out what that is for newer people. Maybe just give debuffs to SWF.

  • @Leachy_Jr said:

    Still keep the exhausted penalty, but buff it from 75% to 100%.

    I'm not really sure why it isn't 100%. Most consider it a wasted perk slot.

  • @Melinko said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3504862#Comment_3504862

    I always thought it would be interesting if the more people you cue with the more gens you have to complete. 2 people, no addition, 3 people you have to do 1 additional, 4 more you have to do 2 additional. Being that co-ordinated it shouldn't matter the extra gens. Downside being they'd have to add an extra gen to avoid late came single gen camps.

    They haven't really done any major PTB change tests since they did the end game mori and Unbreakable at base, which I'm assuming is never coming now. It would be nice to see them try ANYTHING at all out of the ordinary to see if people enjoy it more than keeping everything exactly the same year after year..

  • @Pulsar said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3504907#Comment_3504907

    No, it's just human nature to seek the path of least adversity.

    Players will always optimize the fun out of a game. Unfortunately for you, the Devs understand this and aren't interested in giving Killers more free wins and boosting their ego's even more.

    I play Survivor mostly so not sure what you're on about? I want Survivor to be made easier actually. I notice many new people dropping the game before even giving it a second chance, because of how out right one sided it feels at the lower end for Survivor.. The time sink for this game at its lowest level is too high to keep the newbies apparently.

  • @Pulsar said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3504862#Comment_3504862

    Yeah, you're basically giving people a guaranteed cakewalk game or asking them to have a modicum of challenge. Of course they're gonna take the easy way, that's just human nature.

    You saying the developers should stop going against human nature? Not a bad idea.

  • @JesseScumlord said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3504872#Comment_3504872

    Standing in place or running in circles is substantially less fun to me than trying to babysit players lol, to each their own though.

    Completely understandable. I always run NOED so if anything toward the end, their ego is sky high and I'll usually nab 1 or 2 of them still.

  • @JesseScumlord said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3504862#Comment_3504862

    Playing against coordinated groups is the least fun I've ever had on this game. I don't feel like a killer when doing so, I feel like a gen babysitter, which is inevitably impossible to accomplish - especially if survivors are smart in which gens they complete.

    I will say that playing against 4 people that all know how to loop is very frustrating, but playing solo Survivor with complete potatoes is so much worse for me. The amount of work you have to do to babysit the 3 people that have no clue what they're doing is so much larger compared to going up against a SWF. At least as Killer you can just sit and wait at the exit gate and go to the next game..

  • All they'd have to do to see what type of game people want to play is add a separate SWF mode to matchmaking. You can only Q up in SWF mode if you have 1 or more people grouped up with you obviously. Killers could then Q up against SWF or normal and I promise you, immediately, the devs would notice that 0 Killer players are willingly going to Q up for that trash.. But they know this already and that's why this idea of mine doesn't exist.. :P What a paradox.

  • I just want the next generation gaming consoles to come out so they have to upgrade the visuals of this game again.. It still looks pretty dated on most maps.. Would really like DBD to look like a game that was made in 2024.. Would be breathtaking..

  • This is why so many stealth Killers have been popping up lately... That nerf to Spine Chill was brutal.. It's useless compared to what it used to be..

  • Myers with NOED is always fun. They never suspect it once your Tier 3 runs out.. xD

  • Hmm..probably Predator the most. Then I guess I'll throw FNAF in there as a close second.

  • @TWiXT said:

    still here since 2016... While it's a FAR CRY better than it was back in those days, I do find myself playing less and less these days. TBH, I popped in for 1 week when Skull Merchant came out, and then didn't come back until the anniversary event, and now find myself playing a little during this BBQ event while planning to play for another week or so when the Alien comes out. Overall, That's only about a month and a half of playtime, in the last 6 months so...

    IDK, Perhaps I'm just burned out on DbD, or maybe there's been some changes that just deter me from playing... Either Way, I'm a Killer main at heart, and something about DbD just doesn't feel as "Fun" as it did before.

    I mean the Survivor side hasn't been innovated on since the EGC.. Majority of new people I personally have tried showing the game just think its a Generator simulator as Survivor.. People have to realize when you're new and wanting to play this game, you can't just go find the Killer and start having fun because then you get stomped.. Also the sitting on Generators seems to bore the hell out of most, hence not being a very "action-oriented" task. I can completely see why the game doesn't keep new people. DBD needs a competitor to really FORCE it to shine.

  • Only true for SWFs. Playing Dead By Daylight as a solo Survivor is the most miserable experience in any game I've ever played.. :/

  • @SweetTerror said:

    Imagine if the Alien was the first ever killer that doesn't have a terror radius, and instead of a heartbeat survivors pick up motion trackers to keep a bead on where the Alien is at? To counter this the Alien would have to be faster than any other killer, but I would love to see the devs testing radical ideas like this.

    If we can't get new game modes, then let's get killers and survivors that spice things up. Nicholas Cage was a great example of a survivor coming with perks that are fun and weird, and I want more of that. Vanilla DBD has gotten very stale and boring, and we need something to spice up the gameplay.

    New Survivors need something else to do instead of just M1 simulator.

  • Been around since alpha. Miss the darker environments..

  • Why would I want to learn how to code? Then I'd have people like myself complaining at...myself. So no. Sucks for those that do it though.

  • Not saying they don't. I'm saying regardless of if they do or not, it seems they create just as many as they fix when new content is released. There are so many bugs that always come back because of the way the game is coded. There are still bugs in the game that have been there from the beginning especially in terms of grunt's of pain.

  • @Alice_pbg said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3504211#Comment_3504211

    joke? I'm dead serious on those!

    but can you imagine the work of rewriting everything in a new more modern engine? It would probably run better on everything but... poor programmers... if any is ever asigned to it.

    That would show a lot more love than just making the giant mountain of bugs bigger and bigger each Chapter, because new things, new things, we have to add new things to keep their attention. New things, new things, new things......new things.....................................new...........things............things... :/

  • @Alice_pbg said:

    LAND SHARK! LAND SHARK! LAND SHARK! LAND SHARK! LAND SHARK! LAND SHARK! LAND SHARK!

    https://alternativecinema.com/cdn/shop/products/LandShark_2048x2048_1024x1024%402x.jpg?v=1550115201

    but really... I rather get

    https://flxt.tmsimg.com/assets/p12070_v_v10_as.jpg

    This guy gets it.

  • @KingDeathly said:

    I play wesker you all hate wesker cause of he played to much. You all hate legion cause of I have to mend. I play huntress you all dc when I down you in the beginning of the match with my hatchets. You survivors have a issue. Stop acting like you have some favorite killer you like going up against you treat every killer like weaker you find any excuse to hate going up against these killers. Except knight and skull merchant cause seriously they can just be deleted. So really who the hell would you like me to play as some fluffy bunny that hands you out candy? Will legion in a bunny costume with a knife satisfy you then???

    Play as Wraith no addons or perks. :) They'll all be happy then.

  • @dbdthegame said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3504185#Comment_3504185

    "You got sent to one of the worst maps in the game for your killer, by a 4 man with extremely strong items, with nearly nothing but S-tier perks, and had to sweat your balls off to snag a 3k with all gens complete, and only got this result because they were trash at the game. Why won't you keep playing weak killers?"

    In the future it'll be worse. On average you'll do all of that work, but only get 2k so be ready for that. 2k 2 escapes seems to be what they are shooting for on an overall balance level regardless of how hard you try as Killer. Almost kind of seems like they want to force Killer mentalities to expect less of themselves and just try to enjoy the game, because if you only enjoy it as Killer when you get 3- 4 kills then maybe you're not really enjoying the game.

  • I've been saying this since his release... :/ That pink gas gives me an instant headache..

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