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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3480987#Comment_3480987
If they're basekit, what's to stop them from bringing perks to help while tunneling whilst still getting value from thos effects later in game?
The fact that you get less value from those perks if you tunnel. For example, if Grim Embrace activates while there are 4 survivors alive, you get more value since you are wasting the time of 4 survivors. If you tunnel, the perk would probably only activate while 2-3 survivors are alive, causing you to gain far less value. It's also easier to find survivors when there are more alive. The only perk that killers can run to help tunnel is Deadlock and tunnelers already run that perk.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3480998#Comment_3480998
I do not.
Put a section detailing what patches they were playing on.
The person who made this list seems to only include the highest winstreak for each killer, so if we don't exclude outdated winstreaks, we wouldn't know what the highest winstreak that's still applicable for the killer is. Think of it this way, if someone got a 500 winstreak with Huntress with pre-nerf Iri Head, I don't really care since it was broken and no longer possible.
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@bobateo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3478579#Comment_3478579
I watched Aryun try to do a solo win streak a few times. I don't he broke 50 and most often it ended in the 20s iirc. I can't remember what builds he used tho. I know I've watched a few others attempt it, but don't remember much about them. I don't think the majority to or beyond 20.
@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3479466#Comment_3479466
Still, I didn't think Clown had the tools to go for that long of a streak.
Like, Nurse and Blight, sure. Even Onryo condemned I get.
But Clown? I thought that was surprising tbh.
The difference was that Aryun didn't use Pinkie Finger while the person in the streak did. I don't really consider a Pinkie Finger streak on Clown as a real Clown streak since it changes the killer's identity too much. Playing with Pinkie Finger is like playing an almost entirely different killer. It's like running Tombstone Piece on Myers vs no Tombstone.
@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3480979#Comment_3480979
I don't think it's fair to discount them all together but maybe put an extra note next to them.
It's unreasonable to expect people to get long streaks on a single patch.
I think it's fair to exclude them if it was so different compared to today that it's no longer applicable.
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@Rovend said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3480255#Comment_3480255
What i am trying to tell you is that unless you gave killer an extreme advantage, something so broken that would skyrocket the kill rates, tunneling will never decrease, let alone cease to exist.
As other users pointed out, killers had the eruption meta not so long ago, a perk so busted that would give you 40 sec of gen regression, uncounterable without comms, that only require a gen kick, and still they tunneled and camped because of how strong this strat is.
Your solution means making killer basekit strong enough to win against any survivor without tunneling while making every killer that tunnels steamroll every game.
The soluton is to buff not tunnelling to normalize the strength between the 2 strategies then nerf killer to bring it down to a 60% kill rate. The only way to fix tunnelling is to normalize the strength between tunnelling and not tunnelling. As long as tunnelling is significantly stronger, killers will keep doing it.
Eruption was busted on only a particular set of killers, particularly ones with high mobility and could hold 3 gens well because they could easily setup Eruption on multiple gens and get minutes of gen stall on each down. On other killers it was a good perk but not busted. For example, if you ran it on Myers, you would waste time kicking 1 gen, waste a lot of time getting a down, and Eruption would maybe hit a survivor. It was ok. Killers were still tunnelling because Eruption only good but not busted on most killers.
@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3480055#Comment_3480055
More likely than not, they would find a way to optimize and tunnel while still using those perks.
Heck, you can still tunnel someone out at 5 gens and then use PR for the rest of the game.
But if you manage to tunnel someone out at 5 gens, you already won. PR made no difference. PR + No Way Out is just an example. You could make it Grim Embrace + No Way Out and the killer would basically get 0 value from these perks if they were tunnelling.
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Do these players exclude any maps for these winstreaks? Also, some of these winstreaks are old and should be excluded. For example, the Nemesis winstreak was done pre-Eruption nerf and the guy was running a perma 3 gen build, which would be impossible nowadays.
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@Rovend said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3480163#Comment_3480163
The problem with that solution is that even while having those two perks basekit, tunneling is still the easiest most effective way to win a game in dbd. Meaning that everytime a killer maybe losing the game they will switch back to tunnel as you are not actively punishing it in any way.
Your solution relies on killers willingly choosing not to tunnel while having no reason not to.
I disagree. Pain Res and No Way Out are literally 2 of the best perks in the game curently (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3YNmVPmIeY). If they were made base kit, kill rates will literally skyrocket to above 85%. It would be like playing killer with 6 perk slots. This change isn't balanced and I only used it as an example to show that not tunnelling can be made strong.
If they were made base kit, I would stop tunnelling on most of the killers I play. Tunnelling is a risky strategy since you are betting on being able to tunnel a survivor out fast. Going the alternative route of getting value from Pain Res and No Way Out is much less risky and gives similar or better value. This is coming from someone who tryhards as much as possible to win and 3-4ks almost every match.
My solution relies on making not tunnelling an option that is equivalent or better to tunnelling, so tunnelling is no longer vastly the best option. You say my solution gives killers no reason not to tunnel but that's false. The reason not to tunnel would be to win, which is the strongest incentive.
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@Rovend said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3480055#Comment_3480055
Killers still tunnel today even while using pain res and no way out. Having those two basekit does not change anything other than giving them more tools to use while they tunnel.
What % still tunnel while running both Pain Res and No Way Out though? You barely get any value from these perks if you tunnel. I argue that they would have won without these perks anyway if they won with them while tunnelling. With these perks, killers might situationally tunnel if they randomly find the survivor in a bad spot, but I doubt most would plan to hard tunnel from the start.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3479637#Comment_3479637
Someone who didn't know how to make a decent argument, evidently.
If you want more effective reasoning, here's why.
Tunneling, is for all intents and purposes, a push to remove someone from the match as quickly as possible. Taking all emotional responses out, the idea is to tilt the match in your favor ASAP. If you can get the game to become a 3v1 before 3 gens pop, you are almost guaranteed to win as Killer.
In order to properly incentivize something, the rewards need to be as good or better than what you are trying to dissuade people from doing. There is no reasonable reward that would ever be as strong as tunneling. Even if you were to give the Killer an entire extra gen as a reward, it would still be worse than tunneling. You cannot reasonable incentivize people to not tunnel.
You can, however, punish people for tunneling AFTER you adjust the games balance. If we make the 4v1 less Survivor-sided (which I don't think it's super Survivor-sided currently, especially against certain Killers, so this'll be tricky) and adjust the 3v1 to be less Killer-sided, then I think you could have something there.
That would remove both the need to tunnel and the benefits you get from tunneling.
"In order to properly incentivize something, the rewards need to be as good or better than what you are trying to dissuade people from doing. There is no reasonable reward that would ever be as strong as tunneling. Even if you were to give the Killer an entire extra gen as a reward, it would still be worse than tunneling. You cannot reasonable incentivize people to not tunnel."
I have to disagree that no incentive will ever be enough to stop killers from tunnelling. Pain Res and No Way Out are 2 of the best perks in the game currently (https://youtu.be/q3YNmVPmIeY). If you made these 2 perks base kit, the majority of killers would probably stop tunnelling.
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@adaw0ng said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3472612#Comment_3472612
What's next? Nerfing deception because you don't like falling for it that one time out of ten? Or red herring or diversion because you don't like deceiving plays and getting fake notifications? It's so unserious. Blast mine is fine.
I didn't say to nerf Blastmine though. I said to not buff it, which is happenning in this PTB.
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@Annso_x said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3472696#Comment_3472696
There's no hypocrisy, tunneling is a legitimate strategy that has its place in the game (alongside camping and slugging), but it is absolutely a slippery slope that brings a lot of killers up in MMR when they don't have the skills to keep up without using those strategies. Killers who don't rely heavily on tunneling won't have this problem, but killers who constantly hard tunnel at 5 gens are most of the time out of their depth.
Even on this forum you can see the number of posts calling the game survivor sided or asking for survivor nerfs solely based on the fact that the person who made the post can't win without tunneling. These people go against opponents better than them and demand everything gets balanced around them so they can keep up, and it's one of the reasons tunneling is bad for the game.
And although much less popular, an other questionable strategy is a survivor equipping a stealth build with Wake and/or Sole Survivor and stealth until they can escape through the gates. It's not against any kind of rules and is therefore legitimate, but it's not enjoyable for anyone and the survivor's MMR go up until that's the only way they can survive because they don't have the skills to keep up everyone else.
Obviously tunneling is way more popular than this, but it doesn't change the fact that it's really weird how anyone would tell off a survivor who do this and comes complaining about how the game is killer sided bc hiding is the only way they can survive but somehow we're supposed to listen to killers who have been tunneling until they can't keep up and suggest we nerf survivors so they can keep beating people who are better than them.
TLDR: Tunneling is a legitimate strategy but the majority of the time it's not needed and most killers only do it to get easy wins until MMR kicks their *ss and they come crying about the game's balance when really it's just a skill issue.
There's no hypocrisy, looping is a legitimate strategy that has its place in the game (alongside camping and slugging), but it is absolutely a slippery slope that brings a lot of killers up in MMR when they don't have the skills to keep up without using those strategies. Killers who don't rely heavily on looping won't have this problem, but killers who constantly hard loop at 5 gens are most of the time out of their depth.
Even on this forum you can see the number of posts calling the game survivor sided or asking for survivor nerfs solely based on the fact that the person who made the post can't win without looping. These people go against opponents better than them and demand everything gets balanced around them so they can keep up, and it's one of the reasons looping is bad for the game.
And although much less popular, an other questionable strategy is a survivor equipping a stealth build with Wake and/or Sole Survivor and stealth until they can escape through the gates. It's not against any kind of rules and is therefore legitimate, but it's not enjoyable for anyone and the survivor's MMR go up until that's the only way they can survive because they don't have the skills to keep up everyone else.
Obviously looping is way more popular than this, but it doesn't change the fact that it's really weird how anyone would tell off a survivor who do this and comes complaining about how the game is killer sided bc hiding is the only way they can survive but somehow we're supposed to listen to killers who have been looping until they can't keep up and suggest we nerf survivors so they can keep beating people who are better than them.
TLDR: looping is a legitimate strategy but the majority of the time it's not needed and most killers only do it to get easy wins until MMR kicks their *ss and they come crying about the game's balance when really it's just a skill issue.
@Depressedlegion said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3472720#Comment_3472720
Just use barbeque and chili.
"You cant blame the killer for playing optimally." Sounds like an excuse to say "I'm bad at this game, so I'll tunnel.
I keep dying because the killer is making the best play. Sounds like an excuse to say "I'm bad at this game, so I'll complain."
@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3472696#Comment_3472696
Do you know what hypocritical means? There's no hypocrisy in my comment.
Your MMR increases the more you win. Tunnelling is an effective strategy in that it helps secure kills. Hence, it's a strategy that results in more kills that results in your MMR being boosted.
The game isn't designed though for you to coast on up easily. And eventually the game will match you with opponents that will be able to run you for a long time, hence your strategy will stop carrying you.
I don't really care if you tunnel btw. So this "just admit you don't find it a legitimate strategy" means nothing to me. I'm not sure what validation you're looking for or what youre even trying to say. I don't care what you do, but you're here trying to apply your own meaning to a sentence in the patch notes and I'm here just repeating what a dev has said in the past. They've acknowledged it's a strategy, but they also acknowledged it can be detrimental.
Here's the devs post
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/8MEN62W0XIMY/screenshot-20230524-080425-gallery.jpg
Do you understand what being boosted means? It means being at an mmr that is higher than your skill level. I'm referring to this comment "tunnelling can put you in an MMR above your skill level". If tunnelling is a legitimate strategy, why would using it cause me to be boosted? It's hypocritical because you don't view other legitimate strategies the same way. For example, why don't you see people who loop as being boosted? I can easily replace what you said about tunnelling with looping: looping is an effective strategy in that it helps secure kills. Hence, it's a strategy that results in more kills that results in your MMR being boosted.
@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3472696#Comment_3472696
Fantastic, you want to win.
So do I. Do I have to tunnel and camp to win? No, I do not. Do I do it anyway because it's easy? Yes. Do I recognize that makes me an #########? Yup.
You cannot give bonuses to not tunneling. That's been tried, it doesn't work. Eruption, PR, CoB + Overcharge. 4 exceedingly strong regression perks.
Guess what, still massive amounts of tunneling. I genuinely thought it'd reduce it at the time. I was wrong.
We've tried the carrot, I'm interested to try the stick.
"So do I. Do I have to tunnel and camp to win? No, I do not. Do I do it anyway because it's easy? Yes. Do I recognize that makes me an #########? Yup."
I still disagree. In the competitive games I mentioned, people will do the most annoying things possible if it lets them win, and people aren't viewed as ######### for using these strategies, like in DBD. If you complained about annoying startegies in these games, people will just tell you to get good or give you advice on how to play better. It's practically never the fault of the person using the strategy.
"You cannot give bonuses to not tunneling. That's been tried, it doesn't work. Eruption, PR, CoB + Overcharge. 4 exceedingly strong regression perks."
Firstly, those perks were successful in stopping people from tunnelling. In 3 gen strats, you typically go for the easiest person to down rather than try to tunnel someone out and leave your gens unguarded. Secondly, those perks weren't designed to reward not tunnelling. They were designed for gen control. The current perks that specifically reward not tunnelling are No Way Out and Grim Embrace. No Way Out is one of the top killer perks currently, which shows these perks can be successful. Grim Embrace is another one that no one uses, but it shows these perks aren't oppressive. Anyway, I'm not asking for perks that reward not tunnelling. I'm asking for basekit changes. Base kit changes are needed to make it worth it for most killers not to tunnel. Most killers aren't going to run these perks when they could just tunnel and get the same or better results.
"We've tried the carrot, I'm interested to try the stick."
We already did: DS and Borrowed Time. Both perks were nerfed extremely heavily.
@イエローミント said:
I think they should create a game mode where tunneling and camping are prohibited, so players who dislike tunneling and camping can play that mode instead. Personally, I don't want to play such a game mode.
Almost no killer would play that game mode since it would just be putting them at a disadvantage for no benefit.
@JustAnotherNewbie said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3472696#Comment_3472696
Games like LoL though have a ban system as well as the ability to counter pick champions. DBD has no such feature for the survivor side. Killers can counter survivor items. Also games like LoL also balance on levels that are not pro. So broken things that don't work on a pro level but can be overpowered on other levels get addressed anyway. Also League has way better matchmaking than DBD and it also gives teams tools to communicate without voicechat. SO perhaps since we're using it as an example we have to follow suit and give survivors a ping system.
There's a reason why champions like Azir are bad in low levels and strong in higher levels, because there's skill involved. When there are champions that are strong both on a low and high skill level, they usually get addressed. Doesn't mean bad players don't lose with this champion more than higher skilled players. The same could be said about strategies. if a strategy is so strong for both low and high skill Killers maybe it should be looked at.
Tunneling and Camping are not that hard to think of, because the come naturally to killers. Survivors don't know to loop or use windows etc. and to loop effectively anyway you need to know the maps decently. Survivors' instinct at that level is to usually run in a straight line.
So yeah, for a survivor to be better than a killer in chase means they need to have at least 2 times as many hours as them (maybe even more at lower levels). And your argument could be used for any strong strategy to claim that things should work out ok as long as survivors are better (although you mean way better) than the killer. Which this should be the default anyway? If there's a perk combo/strategy that can by-pass that skill gap, maybe it's too strong after all? What's so difficult to understand about that?
Of course people who will care about winning that they'll play anything look for opportunities to play broken stuff (I mean pros do that all the time). So perhaps to you it's just part of the game that should exist because it rewards you the most.
LoL only allows for 1 ban per person. It's no where near enough to ban everything that's annoying. I also disagree about counter picking being significant since most people only main 1-2 champions, so they will still pick their champion into a bad matchup.
"When there are champions that are strong both on a low and high skill level, they usually get addressed."
You're wrong about this. Everything that's strong gets nerfed eventually. They don't specifically nerf champions that strong in both low and high skill. They nerf champions that are overperforming at all. Also, these games places a much higher priority on balance for top players compared to low ranked players. They don't give equal priority to balancing for both low skill and high skill, like you say.
You also mention that DBD is not balanced for all levels but I disagree. The latest stats showed that almost every killer is within 3% kill rate of each other when comparing all ranks to top 5% (https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/350586/stats-kill-rate-by-killer-and-mmr-september-2022#latest), which is better than LoL. This shows that the game is balanced for almost everyone. I only think balance is an issue for the top 1% of players, but that's a problem that all competitive games have. Top players always find broken things to abuse.
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Without a video showing your game, there's no advice we can give.
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Then play survivor.
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@not_requested49 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3471720#Comment_3471720
Enjoy getting 3 gens popped at once then instead lol
My biggest issue is not with its speed nerf, heck it can give nothing for all I care, but the removal of the BP bonus
But yeah enjoy having multiple gens pop at once instead of just 1 at a time lol
Better than having a gen pop before I find a single survivor.
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3471720#Comment_3471720
Nothing I said is wrong, and the Prove Thyself nerf is unnecessary.
The BNP nerf, that's a much better and more impactful change. Nerfing Prove Thyself is going to do either nothing at all because it was never the reason gens went so fast, or it'd hypothetically make gens faster because people stop grouping up. Just because BHVR are doing it doesn't automatically make it a good or necessary idea, lol.
@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3471720#Comment_3471720
😂 As if devs understood what's indeed strong and what is not. See last calm spirit buff or last adjustment to blight addons or last try to adjust billy addons or .... The list is very extensive.
Overall proof nerf is IMO survivor buff. The perk is super overrated and the more people will use something else, the better for survivor team (7s for last gen is not worth perk slot and you should always spread out instead of multiple people risking same gen/having nothing to loop if killer finds them)
Prove Thyself is very strong in the early and late stages of the game where it is very likely for survivors to be grouped together. If all survivors spawn together on a large map, they can quickly rush a gen before I even find them. This is strong since it's basically like starting the game with 4 gens. In the late stages, survivors are more likely to be grouped on the same gen since there are less total gens. There is also a risk of a 3 gen, which Prove Thyself is very important for breaking. In these scenarios, Prove Thyself gives far more gen speed than any other perk. If Prove Thyself wasn't strong, the nerf shouldn't bother you much.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3472696#Comment_3472696
Giving bonuses is useless. Killers need help getting into a chase with a different survivor, because it’s unrealistic to expect killers to leave a hooked survivor, to find survivors that are hiding in random places on the map.
The biggest question is “what are killers supposed to do, if the survivors are using voice comms, and will hide far away from generators if the killer leaves the hook, because they are waiting for the killer to move far away enough for the survivors to get a free unhook”? ….. Because the answer is “the killer should just stay by the hooked survivor, regardless of the penalties, because it’s a waste of time to leave the hook.
Well, the bonus for not tunnelling could be giving aura reading on other survivors if that's your problem. Though, I wouldn't really say that it's hard to find other survivors since you just patrol the gens. Survivors usually get unhooked in the same amount of time I find another survivor and if they get unhooked earlier, I just return to the hook. Tunnelling is strong because it wastes the time of multiple survivors, prevents healing under the hook, and killing a survivor reduces gen and healing speeds.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3471721#Comment_3471721
This is a ######### argument.
Everyone has known that tunneling is the best strategy for YEARS. Everyone has also known that it can be exceedingly unfun.
All you're trying to do is take the blame off of the Killer and say, "See, they had no choice!". If you're gonna play like an ass and tunnel at 5 gens, own it.
Nope. I'm tunnelling because I play to win. Telling me not to use the best strategy just because I'm winning is like telling players in other games to go easier on their opponents because the enemy team is getting stomped. In games like CSGO, LoL, and Dota, the enemy team will NEVER go easy on you if you are getting crushed. They will just keep pushing their advantage to maximize their odds of winning. It's not toxic in the slightest. It's just playing to win.
The main reason to tunnel a survivor out as early as possible is uncertainty and maximizing odds of winning. Say you have 2 hooks on a survivor and 1 gen is done, it's completely possible that you never see or catch that survivor again until 1 gen. Against coordinated swfs, this is a notable risk since they often split themselves up to hide survivors on death hook and and force the killer to chase survivors that haven't been hooked yet. A killer wouldn't know whether they were playing against a swf or not, so the only way to minimize that risk is to always do it from the start. Even against solos, it isn't a certainty that you will catch or find that survivor again, especially on large and strong maps. The play that maximizes odds of winning is tunelling them out at the earliest opportunity. Also, waiting longer to tunnel survivors out defeats the purpose of tunnelling. The point of killing a survivor early is reducing their gen and healing speeds. The longer you wait to tunnel, the less value you get from tunnelling.
@humanbeing1704 said:
Haven’t they said this for years but also acknowledged they are unfun strategies
They mentioned it that it was a potentially effective or viable strategy but they've never outright mentioned how effective it was. It was more so them acknowledging as a strategy but not commenting on its strength.
@JustAnotherNewbie said:
The problem isn't for those strategies to exist, is that any killer can do them fairly well that they can be super strong against a lot of survivor teams. (not just baby survivors). Imagine if everyone who picked up Nurse or Blight could play them half-decent from the get go.
If more killers played in this way every game, then those strategies would be addressed a lot sooner. I don't think survivors want to remove the effectiveness of those strategies, as people who are not heavily biased know that against strong survivors you need something other than Nurse/Blight/Spirit, but them having no difficulty to do makes them accessible to every skill level and tunneling/camping are a lot more intuitive for players than looping is.
For example (although Spirit's add-ons got addressed). Her MDR add-on gave her a lot of power but unless you were a good Spirit player you could not make that great use of it. But pairing it with Dried Cherry Blossom basically negated its weakness. So while MDR on its own was skillful enough, anyone could play Spirit like a menace with Dried Cherry Blossom, which is stupid.
So if mechanics that are strong are easy to for every skill level then I don't think people should be silenced. In many games you accept strong characters/strategies because usually they are gated behind some kind of skill or experience. At least that's my take on this whole thing.
"The problem isn't for those strategies to exist, is that any killer can do them fairly well that they can be super strong against a lot of survivor teams. (not just baby survivors). Imagine if everyone who picked up Nurse or Blight could play them half-decent from the get go."
I don't see why tunnelling being easily accesible is a problem. I also disagree with your argument since tunnelling well is closely connected to a killer's chasing skills. For example, tunnelling is easy for anyone to do but if a unskilled killer tried to tunnel a survivor much better than them, they would get looped for multiple gens.
"If more killers played in this way every game, then those strategies would be addressed a lot sooner."
Tunnelling is one of the most prevalent strategies in the game.
"I don't think survivors want to remove the effectiveness of those strategies, as people who are not heavily biased know that against strong survivors you need something other than Nurse/Blight/Spirit, but them having no difficulty to do makes them accessible to every skill level and tunneling/camping are a lot more intuitive for players than looping is."
Fairly sure most survivors would want tunnelling completely killed off if possible. Like, do you see any other comment in this thread from a survivor supporting tunnelling?
@Annso_x said:
..what are you on about ?
We've known tunneling was the most effective killer strategy for years. It doesn't take a genius to realize turning a 4v1 into a 3v1 makes things much easier.
Also, no one has ever said it wasn't a "legitimate" strategy, survivors and killers alike complain about tunneling because it's an unfun strategy that should not be the most effective one.
"It's not the killer's fault if they tunnel" yes it is, no one is forcing you to do it. If you do it to go up in MMR until you can't win without it (and inevitably start complaining about the game being survivor sided because you can't keep up) no one is stopping you, but you can't stop survivors from complaining about it.
Finally, if you can't win without tunneling and camping it just means your opponents are better and you should get good.
@Nazzzak said:
Lol they've always said its a strat. But they've also advocated for the tunnelled survivors in acknowledging it's not a fun aspect of the game and tried to disincentivize it (ie basekit BT, OTR, recent SH:PR changes). They've also admitted it can be detrimental to killers, in that tunnelling leaves other survivors with nothing else to do but gens, and that tunnelling can put you in an MMR above your skill level (I have the screenshot of the dev saying that).
So you can claim they're encouraging it but their past words and actions say otherwise.
There's actually heavy hyprocrisy in your comments. You mention that tunnelling is a "legitimate strategy" but go on to say tunnelling results in the killer being boosted in MMR. Why would I be boosted if I was using a legitimate strategy? The reality is that you don't see it as a legitimate strategy. If you really saw it that way, you would treat it like any other skill or strategy and see it as a normal skill in the killer skill set. Think of it this way, looping is a legitimate strategy. Now replace everything you said about tunnelling with looping and it's clear that you don't view tunnelling as a legitimate strategy.
@thrawn3054 said:
You know what is also the best strategy? Bringing 4 toolboxes with BnP stacked up on all of them. Killers complain about it constantly. Guess what? They're right to complain. It's a miserable thing to face off against. Just because it's the most effective doesn't mean it isn't toxic for the game.
@Eelanos said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3471715#Comment_3471715
Just because it's a strategy doesn't mean you have to like it or think that it's conducive to a fun and healthy gameplay. Just look at gen rushing.
I've never hated or blamed survivors for running strong strategies and perks like gen rushing, pre-nerf Dead Hard, and pre-nerf DS. I've always blamed the dev for making them strong and not fixing it. It's the same argument I'm making here. Killers shouldn't be hated for tunnelling since they are just playing optimally. It's the dev's fault for making it strong in the first place. If you've ever played any other competitive game, like LoL and Dota, you would think the same way. You don't blame a person for picking a strong Champion/Hero. You blame the devs for making it strong and ask them to fix it.
@Wiccamanplays said:
I feel like this post only exists to sow further division, it adds nothing new to the conversation. We've always known tunnelling is strong, we knew that before DBD was released because it fits the logic of an asymmetrical game. BHVR has implemented a bunch of anti-tunnelling options but sometimes tunnelling is so obviously the only way to win that a Killer will eat an OTR, DS and DH in a row just to tunnel someone out because it's more effective than the alternatives. The only way I can see them making tunnelling any less desirable than it already is would be making Survivors lose collision on unhook until they do a conspicuous action or like 30 seconds has passed (it would have the nice bonus of stopping unhooked survivors from bodyblocking the killer).
You're missing the point here. As you've said, it is difficult to further disincentive tunnelling. What they need to do is incentivize not tunnelling, e.g. giving bonuses to a killer for chasing a different survivor, something like Grim Embrace. This brings the power level of not tunnelling closer to tunnelling and reduces the need for tunnelling.
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@Annso_x said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3471915#Comment_3471915
Boil over was nerfed because killers couldn't hook survivors, DS & Eruption were nerfed because they were deemed too strong, fun was not the priority
Otherwise, basically every slowdown, regression and anti-exhaustion perks and add-ons would be shaking in their boots alongside second chance and exhaustion perks.
Hell, even Diversion would most definitely be considered unfun if swf suddenly decided to popularize it and spam throwing pebbles at the killer.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3471919#Comment_3471919
Blast Mine absolutely has its uses though, i used it a lot before it was nerfed (and not even with repressed alliance), I always activated it before going for a save, it wastes the killers time, let me know if and when the killer went to kick my gen or offered me an opportunity to disappear if the killer was near but decided to kick the gen before chasing me.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3471930#Comment_3471930
I agree fun absolutely has a place in discussions, but it should not be the sole argument against a buff to a perk which needs it. Blast Mine isn't OP or meta or whatever, its nerf basically killed it and refusing to buff it only because some don't like going against it is not enough in my opinion.
I wouldn't say Boil Over was too strong. It was more so annoying due to being unable to hook survivors in some situations. DS and Eruption perks were heavily nerfed and reworked due to a combination of being too strong and unfun to play against. For Eruption, they could have reduced the incapitated duration, but they removed it completely because it was unfun to play against. Eruption is actually a good example of not buffing an annoying perk. Almost no one used Eruption before they buffed it in patch 6.1.0. Buffing Eruption was what led to the annoying gen kick meta.
@adaw0ng said:
Do you guys ever find anything in this game fun?
Yes, not getting Blastmined.
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@Annso_x said:
Saying we shouldn't buff a bad perk because it's unfun to go against is a terrible argument considering 99% of them are unfun to go against.
It's a niche perk that, as you said, isn't really useful, suggesting we should keep it in a barely viable state because you don't want people to use it is silly.
Nah. Multiple perks have been nerfed because they were extremely unfun to play, against, e.g. Boil Over, Decisive Strike, and Eruption. I see not buffing an unfun perk as a valid pre-emptive measure to avoid similar scenarios.
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@Gandor said:
You don't need to ever damage gen to buy enough time to win the game. If you hate blast mine so much, corrupt, deadlock, +aura perk +chase perk are perfectly fine strong thing. Another option is to stall game in another way - say plything+pentimento or dhope+undying if you are feeling lucky. Or take 2 endgame perks (say NOED+no way out). Or, just forget about all that because 4s stun is not that game-changing...
I'm going to have to hard disagree. The meta for the past few years has literally been gen regression. There's no way you claim damaging gens is unnecessary. Also, Pop Goes the Weasel and No Where To Hide are meta currently and requires kicking gens. Trail of Torment will likely also become meta next patch. There are also some killers, like Wraith and Skull Merchant, that are heavily reliant on kicking gens.
@JustAnotherNewbie said:
You don't even have to kick gens anymore. Jolt is pretty strong atm.
Fairly sure BHVR has said in the past that they don't design the game to need to run one perk to counter another. Here's one example https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3458720/#Comment_3458720
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@tippy2k2 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3471715#Comment_3471715
Killers can (and in my opinion, should) complain about tunneling and camping. It saps all fun and life out of the game for the survivor side.
That doesn't make it not a strategy to tunnel and camp people. It's a strategy. Hell, it can be a POWERFUL strategy. That doesn't make it fun.
Ok, but now it's no longer the killer's fault for tunnelling since it's the best play. It's BHVR's fault for making it the best strategy. BHVR has to add incentives to not tunnel if they want killers not to.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3460082#Comment_3460082
That's only really true for one generator. If multiple generators are done with Prove Thyself one after the other, those survivors are losing gen speed, not gaining it.
Prove Thyself isn't even at a problem at all, let alone the biggest problem. The biggest problem, and I disagree with OP here too, is toolboxes and their dedicated builds. If we assume nobody brought gen speed at all on the survivor side and they split up to just do gens, the killer has a lot of agency in preventing that because base gen speeds really aren't that bad. It's if they split up and they have a ton of gen speed from toolboxes and their builds that it becomes a problem.
@not_requested49 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3460082#Comment_3460082
That would just mean survivors would always split up on gens, meaning you have multiple gens popping at once instead of 1
Yes this happens anyway but killing prove thyself would mean it would just be more frequent
Looks like I was right about Prove Thyself being too strong. It's getting nerfed next patch.
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@tippy2k2 said:
They've said it before that they feel that tunneling and camping are legitimate strategies...
Like...those words out loud.
I don't think they LIKE that those are effective and useful strategies and have done things to try to combat it (to varying success) but they've said that it's an effective strategy that can be used by killers in the game
@SleepyLunatic said:
We all knew this, what is the point of this?
You guys never seen survivors complain about tunnelling at all? This proves that killers are in the right and making the correct play when they tunnel.
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I'm a Singularity main and this a net buff. Ignoring the changes to rarity:
Kid's Ball Glove: in isolation, this is an unjustified nerf but after considering the buff to Soma Family Photo, it was necessary. Realistically, this addon is somewhat useless without Soma Family Photo since it makes your overclock longer than necessary preventing teleports. The change might even be a buff since +25% duration was unnecessarily long.
Cremated Remains: Having permanent Blindness is better. Usually, this addon only works near gens but it was useless since survivors only had to leave the gen for 3 seconds
Nanomachine Gel: moderate nerf
Soma Family Photo: massive buff
Iridescent Crystal Shard: about the same strength. The killer instinct is better in some situations and aura is better in some
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@TheWheelOfCheese said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3466630#Comment_3466630
It's good only for M1 killers in the same way that RPD and Lery's can be: survivors can have a hard time finding generators if they haven't learned the spawns. If the survivors are actually competent then it's an awful map for M1 killers, especially non-stealth ones.
Uh no. Game has the easiest gens to find. They're mostly in the open on the top floor and has one in every 2 rooms. On the bottom floor, the mostly all spawn in the same spot and are easy to learn in a few games. Otz explains why it's a strong killer map https://youtu.be/lIzwuFOOYiI?t=1869
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The Game is actually a good map for most killers. Stats years ago showed it was one of the highest kill rate maps. See Otz's map tier list https://youtu.be/lIzwuFOOYiI
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3464280#Comment_3464280
Same as my Forum name.
Are you on Twitch? Can't find you. Private message me the link.
@DavidHypnos said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3464234#Comment_3464234
It’s already pretty much a guaranteed hit unless there’s a jungle gym or vault nearby. His speed boost is a huge advantage both in his cloaked and his post-uncloak movement. If you’re struggling with him it’s a you problem and not a fundamental flaw.
There's almost always a jungle gym or vault nearby. His uncloak loses a similar amount of time compared to breaking a pallet.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3464279#Comment_3464279
It's unnecessary.
Most really good a Knights don't really need that.
If you've read my thread, I said the suggestion was because Knight was boring to play not because he was weak.
@Chadku said:
Imagine being able to cycle to the Guard you need for the situation you end up in.
Breaking gens & pallets instantly, wasting time with the Jailer or being able to keep the Assassin for every chase.
"Integral"
Good. That sounds like fun.
@ARTRA said:
I would pick 90% of the time assassin and carnifex only for pallets. Jailor would never see play.
In any case i would change Jailor to be less trash.
(Also base map of the realm bhvr pls)
Jailer is actually useful due to the massive detection range. There are many loops where I prefer Jailer. Also, there is an addon that grands 10% MS when using Jailer. Also, Jailer is useful for guarding a high progress gen while letting it regress.
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@JustAnotherNewbie said:
Just had a game yesterday where the killer slugged Leon who I got up and then me. He both camped us hoping the other survivor would go for a save. Leon just started working on the last gen while I was down, but then he went to find him. Needless to say, the killer couldn't catch Leon for the whole 4 mins I was slugged on the ground, but he still ended with a 4k.
Now I want you to convince me how such a killer is skilled and he deserves the 4k if he spent 5 whole minutes maybe more (including Leon being slugged before me) being unable to close the game at 4k and why something like this should be allowed and award an auto 4k.
Maybe the Leon lasted that long because he was good and you guys were bad?
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3464234#Comment_3464234
I don't think so.
I'm already at 10 I think I haven't really been trying.
They've been streamed as well.
Well same experience as me. I do fine with Wraith on most matches until I get a bad map against good survivors.
What's your stream?
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3464275#Comment_3464275
If the payoff isn't impactful, why make this topic?
I understand that the smacking method isn't usually viable, which is why I tacked it on.
You need to think ahead and understand what situations you may find yourself in, in say, 45 seconds.
The pay-off isn't worth it compared to the time wasted. Constantly wasting 5-10 seconds to potentially have the best guard isn't worth it. The payoff is definitely worth it if you could cycle Guards without wasting time.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3464251#Comment_3464251
You need to manage his Guards and be prepared for the situations you may find yourself in. You need to think ahead and cycle Guards when necessary.
You can smack them if you want to cycle.
Uh no. Cycling 1 guard wastes 5 seconds and has an addition 3 sec CD. You can't go around constantly wasting time cycling the guards. Typically the pay off for potentially having the best guard isn't that much better than having any other guard.
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@Pulsar said:
The guard cycle is an integral part of his gameplay.
How so?
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@Pulsar said:
I've begun the streak.
Good luck. You'll need it.
@Nebula said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3462689#Comment_3462689
Wraith is high B tier low A tier in this meta 100%
Where's your 25+ win streak then, sir?
@UndeddJester said:
I think Wraith is a bit of a pub stomp character. He relies on ambushing, and when you surprise people you can really wreak havoc...
I saved him until I got used to slower killers like Pig, Myers, Trapper, etc, as when I read his moment speed boost, I felt that would be a crutch for new player and slow diwn me learning the basics... but holy crap when I began running him I started brutalised teams.
Then I went up against a strong WoO survivor with a lot of experience, and was more or less just in straight up chase without ambush... and he really gave me hard time. Even with my movement speed boost on decloak and chase down power, I just couldn't seem to find the right moment to catch him.
So I can kinda see where Otz is coming from. I'm a scrub, but to me it seems Vs. a strong coordinated team, Wraith runs out of tricks quickly... however vs. the average Joe Schmoe, he feels very powerful 🤔
Yes. I agree with you on Wraith being a pub stomper.
@DavidHypnos said:
Wraith ALSO gets a major speed boost upon decloaking. You really cannot compare him with Sadako. I don’t think she’s as bad as everyone says, but Wraith is definitely far more powerful.
Sadako doesn't need uncloak speed boost since her uncloak is way better. If Wraith had her uncloak, it would literally be a guaranteed hit on every uncloak.
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I catch far more survivors off guard with Sadako than Wraith because of her significantly better uncloak. Wraith's stealth is much better but his uncloak is significantly worse.
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Anyone who thinks Wraith isn't C tier, get a 25 win streak with him. Ultimately, a killer's strength is tied to their ability to kill survivors and the most objective way to evaluate their strength is to look at their kill rate and ability to win streak.
S tier = 100+ win streak
A tier = 50 win streak
B tier = 25 win streak
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@Shroompy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3462609#Comment_3462609
Well no ######### Condemned Sadako is stronger than Wraith, its one of the stronger builds in the game period.
That being said, if we allow Sadako to use her strongest build its only fair to let Wraith use his strongest build. And with that Sadako is still stronger yes, but its not like Wraith is a push over.
You mentioned that hes not a great chaser but heres the thing, Sadako aint either. In fact shes a worst chaser since she doesnt have a way to shorten the gap or deal with pallets. Wraith has movement speed built into his kit and add ons to deal with pallets.
So what do you do with both of them? You dont chase. They are purely hit and run and thats where they both shine the most. What I believe Wraith has over Sadako, is a better chase and less map dependency. Wraiths performance is fairly consistent since his (little) anti loop and mobility dont have any restrictions unlike killers like Billy or Oni.
He's a jack of all trades which makes him possibly the least map dependant killer in the game, yes there are maps that hes not as good, but those maps are typically bad killer maps to begin with. All of the maps you mentioned are all terrible for basically any killer (except Lery's and... Midwich!??) and Wraith is no exception.
So, you're saying his hit and run build is stronger than C tier? I don't think so. The maps I mentioned are hard for most killers but for Wraith, it's much worse and almost guaranteed loss against good survivors.
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@Shroompy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3446165#Comment_3446165
Otz' opinion isnt fact.
Dont get me wrong tho, he has a lot of good takes that I find myself agreeing with a lot of the time.
@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3446165#Comment_3446165
Otz is wrong.
His kit is perfectly suited to the current meta. I'd give him a spot near High B-tier.
@Bartlaus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3445642#Comment_3445642
As a Wraith main I have to agree. He's in a good spot and I hope the Devs will never touch him again.
Nah. I've tested a lot of Wraith and I agree with Otz's C tier rating of Wraith. Condemn Onyro is definitely stronger than Wraith.
Wraith is decent on most maps but there are some maps he is extremely bad on. The main issue with Wraith is he has nothing to shorten a chase in a loop, so if survivors aren't stupid and run the loop instead of pre-dropping instantly, it becomes very difficult to win. People only think Wraith is strong because most survivors are stupid and will just wait a pallet to drop it while you uncloak instead of looping it. Wraith is mainly strong on maps with few pallets. He struggles significantly on maps where:
- there are many pallets
- loops can be chained
- the map is too narrow for Wraith to overtake survivors and body block them
Examples of terrible maps for Wraith are: Borgo, Lery's, Mother's Dwelling, The Game, Midwich (depending on your build), and Garden of Joy.
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I like how people say 5m is too much while survivors have a permanment speed boost while injured that works globally. The buff I suggested is literally weaker than Made for This. The equivalent to Made for This would be having a permanent 3% speed boost while at least 1 survivor is injured.
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Honestly, a Prove Thyself nerf is all that's needed to fix gen rush. This perk gives far more gen speed than any other perk.
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@TetroXyD said:
In general, it is strategic to disperse the biopods to protect a generator, but it becomes difficult in confined spaces such as a shack or a corridor.
The fact that a single EMP can neutralize all the infections and biopods in this type of zone is frustrating.
After reflection, it would be advisable to limit the number of entities disabled by an EMP for a more strategic and balanced use.
For example, we could consider neutralizing a maximum of X infections or biopods in the targeted zone, thus avoiding the decontamination of 4 survivors and 3 biopods in a single EMP.
Perhaps this might seem too radical?
Nah. That's by design to prevent 3 genning.
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What was stronger about old Clown?
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3457472#Comment_3457472
Is Adrenaline op too? Lithe & SB are broken? Because now killers are complaining about these perks. Looks like you guys never stop complain about survivor perks. Whenever devs nerf something, you are just going to next.
No. Only op survivor perks currently are probably Prove Thyself and MFT.
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Lmao. CoH and Dead Hard were completely broken. That's why we complained about them. Your argument about survivors not being able to have good perks also applies to killer. All of our very strong perks got nerfed. I reckon the only strong perk currently is Deadlock. The rest of the meta perks are balanced/only decent.
Killer did get many good perks recently but that's because we had almost none before that. Remember that almost every killer was running some Hex Ruin build in the past because there were literally no other good perks.
Also, don't know why people are saying No Where to Hide is a good perk. It's a B tier perk that very few killers run.
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Yep. Buff more killer perks so they are worth running. The recent Pop Goes the Weasel buff was good.
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As a killer main, I don't see what's so bad about it. It feels like a fairly standard map to me.
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@Mandy said:
Thanks for the suggestions here, we do have a few changes for the EMP's in particular ready for an upcoming hotfix. We'll be looking at reducing the EMP crates themselves to 4 per map, the generation time increased to 100s (currently 90s), and Survivors will also be slowed whilst charging an EMP by 10% as well as increasing the EMP charge time itself to 2.5s from the current 2s.
Duration of the pod disabling from an EMP will also be decreased down to 45s. There's also some score changes as we noticed Devious points were a little on the low side.
How do those sound?
If a survivor picks up an EMP from a crate, the crates should not automatically print EMPs until the survivor uses it or dies. The reason why EMPs felt so oppressive was that there were effectively 10 of them on the map since the EMPs were always available again after survivors used them due to the auto printing.
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Have you tried using the EMPs?
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Make it so Bubba slows down temporarily instead of entering Tantrum when bumping.
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7% from Hope = completely fine