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@ThiccBudhha said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3140187#Comment_3140187
It depends on when you play, and that could potentially suggest it is actually relatively even... Overall. In practice, that does not really matter however. And that is also why we are getting queue incentives.
I mean I used to get 2-4 minute queue times for killer during the day, and instant queue times during the evening. And it was kind of the other way around for survivor. That seemed pretty balanced to me.
Now, during the evening, I have 2-4 minute queue times for killers, and I can't really say what they are during the day at the moment, haven't played during the day for a while. But in my eyes, that's not a good thing. It wouldn't be terrible though, but it seems like some people have it worse than me currently. Meanwhile survivor queue times always seem instant.
I do realise that there still more people playing survivor than killer, just not at a 4:1 ratio. And I also get that the entire "solo q is dead" narrative is just serious exaggeration. But I do think current queue times are a cause for concern, and I think if camping and tunneling were simply nerfed, we'd go back to balanced queue times again. Which just makes it all the more frustrating that BHVR hasn't already done this, because it seems like a no brainer, to nerf cheap, insanely unfun and skillless strategies.
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@ausanimal said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/341827/the-state-of-dbd
If the killer is not camping or proxy camping the hook then the 5 secs is enough to get away, 9/10 saves i see when i play killer is just bad choices from other survivors they unhook the hooked survivor before i even turn around, if in a chase they run to get the save leading me right back to you and sometimes you can see them hanging around so soon as i take 10 steps they rush in for the save.
Survivors cant keep blaming killers when your fellow survivors are just doing unsafe hooks, yes it might suck if the killer goes after you but the other survivor is the one that caused that to happen, when instead they could of waited 20sc for the killer to leave then go for the unhook making it a safe one then going somewhere to heal, so next time you get unhooked and the killer goes after you think if its the killer or another survivor that did a unsafe hook with the killer right there.
Do you play survivor?
Because if so, you should know that camping and tunneling still a serious problem. That's what people are complaining about, not when a killer intercepts a survivor that is hook rushing.
I don't know why people like you are still trying to find excuses as to why tunneling and camping shouldn't be nerfed. I think it's been long enough to safely say that something needs to be done about camping and tunneling, if we want queue times to back to a normal and balanced state again.
In almost all cases that I get tunneled, it's the killer who simply refused to leave the hook, or came back to the hook to tunnel me. They are cheap and unfun tactics that need to be nerfed. They are way too effective, both for how unfun they are to go against, and how little skill they require.
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@Bot_Salvo88 said:
Let's not act like survivor queues were over 5 mins long for the past 7 months, please...
Plus, what I see as killer and survivor is a matchmaking issue more than "killer buffs" and "survivor nerfed into the ground". I mostly go against 100 hour players when I have almost 1000. It's not working, that's the main issue
If it was just matchmaking, these longer queue times would be spread evenly among survivors and killers. But it is not. Killers seem to be the only ones with longer queue times, which definitely suggests that there is an imbalance in player count for each side. DBD doesn't have enough survivor players at the moment.
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It will stay like that until the devs finally nerf camping and tunneling. So many people are complaining about it, especially now, they can not ignore it for ever.
I guess I am just lucky with my 2 - 4 minute killer queue times.
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Even as Nurse, who is surely overpowered, you can still easily lose, especially since she can be quite hard to play.
This entire thread seems a bit pointless, if it's intention is to criticise certain aspects of the game, for example Nurse, being overpowered.
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@Crowman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3137636#Comment_3137636
There's nothing unfair about it. The game is an asymmetrical elimination game. Playing survivor means you are on the team that is getting eliminated.
Tunneling and camping are both valid tactics with the only actual problem is face camping which is hard to address due to many counters to it affect normal gameplay negatively.
The less a killer camps and tunnels, the less such counter measures would affect him. It's quite simple.
Killers got a bunch of buffs that helped them in general, making their normal gameplay also more viable. Tunneling and camping are incredibly unhealthy and unfun strategies. No matter if someone calls them fair or not. They are obviously a constant frustration for survivor players, and it's showing now in particular, with the noticeable killer queue times increase.
So something needs to be done. There are enough ways to nerf camping while barely affecting normal playing killers. Even if they get affected a tiny bit, you know in those rare situations people can come up with, as people have when arguing that Reassurance needs to be nerfed, then that's not such a big deal either. Killers just received a bunch of buffs already. Survivors now need something in return.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
If they remove zombies and make tentacle only 2 hits, i will gladly take this.
And finally they can add actual add-ons for my boy.
Zombies are useless and rng most times. So removing them will be good QoL for Nemmy with tentacle buffs.
That would be nerfing his map pressure and buffing his chase potential. I think that would make his chase potential to oppressive. People generally aren't the biggest fans of killers that have nothing but power in chase, but with that power then being oppressive.
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@Xane said:
I want honest answers here. This game has become utter ######### lately, solo que is ASS, and so are the killers as 10 matches in a row were face camping, slugging, slowdown perks out the wazoo. I honestly want to know why people play this game. Are you bored, and have nothing else going on that you play this game cause you hate yourself? Do you tell yourself after raging that you won't come back but still do and live like this every week playing this game?
Maybe things would change if people would stop giving BHVR money but the average consumer is too stupid nowadays. Some of you that continue to ######### about this game and still play it and give them money need a reality check cause you must hate your life if you continue to invest in this game. If this is you, you are the reason this game has a toxic community, and you are the reason your life is void of joy so you think this game will bring you happiness but you get mad when you die, say you will never return but still do. Too bad the community won't do anything to change things and all of you will continue to cry and hate yourself. If this is you, find another game, take a break, and do other things. There's other games to play, some of you make this game your life and you really shouldn't have.
(I am not attacking anyone but this community is confusing as hell and if people think the game design is #########, then why give them more money and your time when you know they really don't care what you think?)
This game has it's problems. For solo survivors in particular at the moment. Camping and tunneling are as effective as ever, which is very frustrating.
But despite those problems, people can still have fun with this game. It just has room for improvement. Not a hard concept to understand, if I am going to be honest.
So you really can't blame people that are still playing this game for the game not further improving. That is just laughable. Killer queue times are noticeably longer than survivor queue times, on average. So that is definitely good reason for BHVR to do something that helps survivors, either solo queue buffs, or nerfs to camping and tunneling.
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DS and Self Care being reverted is a must in my opinion. I hope the devs wake up to this matter and realise that some of these nerfs were just completely wrong. They simply nerfed DS and Self Care because of the usage rate, there was no actual balance logic behind those nerfs, at least it seems like that to me.
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@ThiccBudhha said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3138954#Comment_3138954
I think his point is you do not need pressure to 4k against potatoes. And pressure does nothing against good players. He is correct, you are wrong. The opinion card does not apply here, redeem it elsewhere, fam.
Pressure does nothing against good players? What?
Of course it does, you just have to play good enough to get pressure on good survivors.
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@Tostapane said:
i think that you went aganist AWFUL survivors, that's why you won so easily... honestly i envy you since for me killer is unplayable right now unless i use nurse and start camping and tunneling (not fun at all tbh). i found funny when people claim that now this game is killer side... maybe at low mmr, but not my matches since i got everytime sweaty tryharders with meta builds who also abuse of the most broken areas in the map (example: someone put an offering for the dredge map and eveytime that i start chasing someone the survivors will ABUSE of that house, which is an infinite), paired with broken tools such as brand new parts together with green toolboxes and green medkits with instaheals (both styptic agent and anti hemorrage syringe) and something that will improve the charges of the medkit...
Dude if you have to play with Nurse and then camp and tunnel, then the only problem you are facing is seriously BS matchmaking. That or you are inflating you're mmr with cheap kills you got by camping and tunneling.
But you are clearly going against survivor players that are better than you.
The game would be in it's most balanced state it ever was, if camping and tunneling were just nerfed. That's what's really bugging so many survivor players at the moment. Without those strategies, the game is fairly balanced. At least if you look at the average balance of the game, obviously maps, items/addons, and killers can still sway the balance into one or the other direction.
So yeah, killer isn't easy now, at least if you play killer normally. But the game can feel unfair and unbalanced for survivors, because of camping and tunneling.
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@GrimoireWeiss said:
Everybody knows that already. What we complain about is how BHVR doesn't make spreading hooks a more valid strategy.
They kind of did make it more valid. Killers just got a bunch of baseline buffs recently, playing normally still gives you a fair chance at winning.
The problem most people are having is that tunneling and camping are kept at a way too viable level at the moment. They need to be nerfed, before killers could get any more buffs.
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Tunneling is unhealthy for the game, it's as simple as that. Nobody enjoys being camped or tunneled.
You can play killer normally and still be able to have a fair chance at winning. Now that killers have gotten multiple baseline buffs. Tunneling isn't always the best choice, but it often can be. And that's a problem. If anything, camping and tunneling at the moment are overpowered strategies, that need to be nerfed. Killers can play normally and still win, but tunneling and camping are simply the easy way out.
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3136714#Comment_3136714
Did they consider Solo Q when they released the last patch though?
Dude just because solo queue suffered in the last patch doesn't mean they ignored it. Pretty sure they overrated the 5 second endurance and haste effect for example. That doesn't mean they don't care for them.
If anything, it's more about BHVR still not always knowing what to do when it comes to needed balance changes. Really not sure if you are helping your case here.
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I am still trying to figure out if you are just being sarcastic or not. I kind of hope you are. There is no way one could still call BHVR survivor sided after all the buffs killrs received now.
I am also quite positive they won't really buff or nerf him. The feedback was overwhelmingly positive, from what I could see. He'll probably just get more refinement, like his collision and maybe hit box being decrease a little. And of course his bugs fixed.
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@S4ShadowWolf said:
Are we still forgetting that while ridiculous, tunneling and camping are legitimate strategies, as mentioned by BHVR multiple times? Same reason you can't report people for it.
Great. They called them legitimate strategies. What on earth does that change?
it's clear that pretty much every survivor player hates these strategies. For the most obvious reasons. They are so unfun to go against, and are simply very unhealthy for the game. And it's perfectly backed up by the fact that the average killer queue time is a bit problematic at the moment. The game simply doesn't have enough survivor players.
So ignoring these complaints is not going to do you any favor. BHVR can call them legitimate as often as they want to, it won't change the fact that they are insanely frustrating to go against, are extremely unhealthy for the game, and are clearly driving too many survivor players away from the game.
Of course the claims of this game dying are beyond exaggerated. But it still isn't good for the game at the moment, to have a clear imbalance of players.
I would also guess the reason they said that camping and tunneling were legitimate strategies is because people reported killers for those strategies. So that it doesn't even really have to do with whether they are good for the game or not.
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@Pulsar said:
It's because the average Survivor experience is ######### awful right now.
No one wants to get camped and tunneled out at 5 gens with a Killer stacking 4 slowdown perks and get 8K points when the Grind for BP got way worse.
i think if the average survivor experience was really awful, killer queue times would be even much longer. So I would say that is a bit of an exaggeration.
There is no doubt that survivor needs help though, because the matches where killers camp and tunnel do stick out as particularly frustrating at the moment. It's not just those cheap strategies however. Matchmaking being bad also adds to the frustration too often.
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@rvzrvzrvz said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3137564#Comment_3137564
Nobody respects OTR either, tunneling is easier than ever, I'm not saying OTR is a bad perk but why nerf DS when you claim in the patchnote that you want to nerf tunneling it's weird, everytime I see someone using DS he's always dead 5 seconds later
Not sure if I would call tunneling easier than ever, but it surely hasn't become less effective either, and that is a real shame. I fully agree, that DS stun nerf was one of the worst balance changes I have ever seen. Just completely awful.
Let's hope they don't stay stubborn too long on that, and finally buff it back to 5 seconds.
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@SuzuKR said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3137335#Comment_3137335
You are literally advocating that a player should lose most games just for using a strategy. LOL
A cheap strategy like tunneling? Of course, that's how you properly design an online game. You make sure both sides have effective strategies that are fun for the other side, and the unfun bullcrap gets weakened as much as possible.
Killers will just have to not tunnel and camp, and play normally. And then they still have a fair chance of winning against survivors.
Making sure a game is as fun as possible as often as possible is kind of important. And in this context, it would also be kind of important in order to finally even out these freaking queue times.
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I mean, we did get a hotfix with 3 perk changes, so they are definitely doing more for the game's balance than ever before in my opinion.
So my hope is that they will nerf camping and tunneling in the near future. I am definitely happy with Reassurance, but it's certainly not the answer to camping and tunneling. Definitely a nice additional counter to camping, but those strategies still need to be addressed at base as well, they are still too effective currently.
And it would honestly be ridiculous if BHVR really started to simply address problems with perks and that's it again, like 1 month after the big balance patch that was supposed to make killers and survivors less dependent on certain perks.
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@saybro said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3136207#Comment_3136207
Pretty much. It barely helps and its just the exact same as it was pre patch. I've lurked on these forums for a while and I am convinced that while some complaints are justified, most do it just for the sake of complaining.
Well i think that's just always going to be the case with forums. And to be fair, all kinds of different people have all kinds of different opinions, no matter how questionable.
But honestly, at the very least the complaints about camping and tunneling are definitely justified, in my opinion. The entire "solo queue dead" narrative is just maybe a bit of an exaggeration.
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Not sure if it would ruin the game's balance. Swf can already communicate to each other where they are. Though generally with less precision, so survivors being able to see each other's aura the entire time might be too much.
I would prefer the player icons that BHVR were talking about early this year. Showing every survivor what everyone is doing. An icon for repairing gens, one for healing, and obviously one for being chased. I would also love to see a range indicator for survivors on how far away they are from the closest hooked survivor, so they can best judge who goes for the save.
A ping sytem could also be awesome, though.
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I enjoy those maps actually. They are some of the most balanced maps in my opinion, with the one downside that they can sometimes not spawn enough pallets in the middle of the map, which can suck for survivors.
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I kind of would like to have Ruin's values buffed only a little, but instead have BHVR find a way to make Hex perks a bit more consistent. My suggestion would be to have them stay active for a certain duration after the start of a match, whether the associated Hex: totem is destroyed or not. That duration should obviously vary from perk to perk. And only after that duration, does the perk then deactivate, if the totem was already destroyed. I really want Hex perks to become a bit more consistent in use.
I am not sure if it's the regression perks that are so oppressive at the moment, or if it's more just the slowdown perks. Like Thana, which luckily got nerfed.
I never thought of Call of Brine as oppressive though. And having it work on only 1 gen at a time, I feel could overnerf that perk. Maybe just reduce the duration to let's say 50 seconds or so? Though I feel like Call of Brine is one of those balanced regression perks that doesn't need to be nerfed.
In my opinion, there are only two slowdown perks that really need to be nerfed at the moment. One is Pentimento. With only 1 totem up, it can increase gen times from 90 seconds, to freaking 128 seconds. That is simply too much in my opinion. It should have it's values reduced from 30% to 25 or 24 %.
Eruption is problematic because it can hurt solo survivors more than swf survivors, because an swf survivor that is about to go down can just tell their friends to let go from the gen. So the incapacitated effect needs to be decreased by a lot. Down to 8/10/12 seconds in my opinion, and I think in that case, the regression could also be buffed from 10 to 12 %. It would make the perk much healthier and less oppressive.
Gift of Pain could maybe also use a nerf from 16% repair speed reduction to 14%, but not sure on that one. Honestly, before they go and nerf any other slowdown or regression perk, I would rather have them nerf camping and tunneling properly. These two strategies are arguably the biggest source of frustration for survivors. So I'd rather have them focus on that primarily, and then see how balanced the game is, when killers are more forced to play normally, and actually skillful, if they want to have a decent chance at winning. And even after that, instead of nerfing killers, I think buffing solo queue with more information would be the better way to go.
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I want survivors to get some help too. Especially against camping and tunneling.
But I am not sure if this data here is a good argument for survivor buffs. It's older now, and the devs said that kill rates weren't as high as they wanted it to be.
Problem is just that they didn't only buff killers good and fair gameplay strategies. They also kept unchanged, and to an extent even buffed, their cheap and unfair strategies, which are tunneling and camping.
I think current queue times are the better argument to be made here. Obviously there is something with the survivor role that is not making the role attractive enough for enough players since the 6.1.0 patch. And I would definitely start with taking a look at camping and tunneling. Game would be in the best state it's ever been if those strategies were just nerfed properly.
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@Sluzzy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3131982#Comment_3131982
Circle is really not that good after all the nerfs, I never used it after it was nerfed a second time. Killers have so much time at their disposal that survivors don't have time to constantly re-boon to heal. Killers were buffed, the huge buff to Scourage Hook+Dead Man far outweighs the extremely small Thanatophobia nerf.
When I see survivors constantly losing, and the outcries on social media about how unbalanced the last patch was, I feel my statements represents it well.
CoH is still very strong in my opinion. It's always nice when someone brings that perk.
I still see survivors winning a good amount of times as well. The balance is not completely screwed now. It's just that survivors now have to deal with certain frustrations they shouldn't have to, especially now that killers got their frustrations addressed, at least to a certain extent.
And camping and tunneling are are at the top of the list. It's not only about balance, but especially about gameplay, and how fun, or not fun, survivor can be at the moment. Although there are at least two slowdown perks that in my opinion are definitely op.
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At this point you have to just be trolling. There is no way for anyone to actually call every single new killer op or? Esppecially a killer like Wesker, who has a particularly well designed anti-loop ability, because it also allows for great counterplay on the survivors side.
if you think Wesker has no counterplay, then you really just have to start facing the truth, and that you simply suck at the game.
You want to nerf killers like Nemesis? Hello? Shouldn't killers be encouraged to camp and tunnel less, not more? There are certain problems with survivors at the moment. Camping and tunneling are the biggest one in my opinion. The lack of information for solo queue is another in my opinion. But killers like Nemesis, or soon Wesker? Nerfing killers like those would just be so backwards.
You claim survivors have made their voices heard, but it surely wasn't about killers like Nemesis needing to be nerfed. Everyhwere you look, there are three common problems being brought up. Camping and tunneling, solo queue not having enough information, and sometimes certain slowdown perks still being too dominant. Nobody is complaining about killers like Nemesis. Maybe about Nurse and Blight, but that's kind of it.
BHVR needs to buff survivors in the right way. They are not stupid enough to nerf killers fair and skillful play. Instead, they need to nerf camping and tunneling. That has the highest priority. And then after that, I hope they look into solo queue getting more information they can work with.
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I still think Nemesis anti-loop will be better. If you only focus on the looping aspect. Wesker has very decent and fair counterplay at loops, which is obviously a good thing. You want a killer that is strong, but not overpowered in the sense that survivors have too little counterplay.
Nemesis also has some counterplay, but is more limited in my opinion. If you are in mid animation and Nemesis has line of sight on you, you are getting hit, especially thanks to his very short charge time. And he can hit over objects, and vaults, as well. Of course having to hit survivors 3 times is a downside, and Wesker counters holding W very well, Nemesis doesn't.
I do think Wesker will be a bit stronger than Nemesis, but not to the point where he'll just do everything better. I find Nemesis to still be a fairly strong killer with his upsides.
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No way. Not until they nerf the remaining overpowered slowdown perks (Pentimento, Eruption), and nerf camping and tunneling properly. Survivors are now the ones in need of help against the biggest frustrations THEY have to deal with. Killers already got that with a bunch of nice baseline buffs. And queue times are 100% supporting this.
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@Derix said:
Oh I forgot this forum is flooded with killer mains scouring for the next survivor nerf. As a person who plays killer most of the time, I actually enjoy an equal winning on both sides. if I struggle as killer then cool, I need to get better. I take 2 or more as a win, not 4k minimum. I want to play a different game mode as survivor by myself and actually stand a chance. Is that so hard to ask?
Also, you just read two comments that didn't agree with you and this is your first respone? Are you 10 years old?
The majority on these forums seem to actually agree that survivors need some help now, especially when it comes to camping and tunneling.
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Dude the exaggeration on these forums sometimes is insane.
People here are acting like killers were overbuffed so much, by adding 40 seconds on to every gen and reducing their hit recovery to 1,5 seconds.
Gens take 10 seconds longer now, and certain killer actions have had their time reduced by 10%. Not the type of changes that would completely shift a game's balance around.
There is no doubt that solo queue in particular needs improvement. For me, the obvious thing to do now is to finally nerf camping and tunneling properly. After that, the game would be in the best state it's ever been. Killers are more viable now simply by playing fair and skillful, but the cheap strategies like camping and tunneling would finally be less effective. It's exactly what the game needs, but sadly, BHVR only did the first part, and left out the second part.
On top of that, some solo information, like showing what survivor is being chased on the player icons, or generally just showing what action a survivor is performing, would also be fantastic. Though personally I do believe that nerfing camping and tunneling has the biggest priority for BHVR, as those are the worst strategies design wise I have ever seen in an online vs video game.
So I completely understand why some people are fed up with this game at the moment. I am a killer main but played the game much less, until now at least, with Wesker being such a fantastic killer, I am definitely going to play more. So I definitely want them to give survivors the improvements they need as well.
But saying that this game is now dead, and nobody is playing solo queue, is such an exaggeration, and I am not sure if that is going to help you make your point. And as many people as there are, that actually have fair complaints, I do sometimes feel that some people also complain about solo queue, even though they are most likely the problem. It's just always extremely hard to tell which is the case with someone who complains about solo queue.
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I have been lucky with killer queue times, the few times I have played killer since the balance patch.
In the evening, or during the weekend, more people tend to play with their friends, which means they play survivor. That shortens killer queue times. During the day, not as many people do that, so killer queue times are longer.
The killer queue times during the evening used to be instant, and during the day, a few minutes, which was a healthy balance if you ask me.
But then they buffed killers in numerous ways, and seemingly forgot about survivors and their frustrations. So until they nerf camping and tunneling properly, or give solo queue some information buffs, kliller queue times will continue to be longer no matter the time of day.
Or they just revert the killer buffs, but that would be the dumbest thing ever. They need to address the actual frustrations of survivors, and not add back frustrations for killers.
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I 100% disagree with this. The 2,7 second cooldown is fine, I do not think it needs to be buffed in any way.
I do get that you're suggestion would still allow survivors to get the same amount of distance they did before, but I still think it would be too much. Slugging survivors would become more effective, because survivors couldn't heal in between hit cooldowns, and that's not something you want to see in DBD.
Also, a Wraith able to bodyblock a survivor in a corner for example could probably insta down a survivor with such a short attack cooldown, though not sure.
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@ElleGreen said:
They literally got buffed in every way possible with bloodlust and hitting quicker etc and have been acting horrible ever since camping and tunneling every game it's wild
That's what happens when you only encourage killers to play fairer by making that strategy more viable, without nerfing the crappy strategies. Many killer players will still resort to the crappy strategies because they are still effective.
That crap of "encourage killers to not camp and tunnel instead of discouraging them to camp and tunnel" is complete bullocks, and only half the needed job.
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Never made that experience. In my experience, there are other killers that camp more often. Bubba being number 1, for obvious reasons. Though Huntress camping isn't a rarity for me either, her camping potential is sadly also really strong.
But to be fair, I have seen a post like this made about all kinds of killers already.
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@Braincell1973 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3133271#Comment_3133271
And there's the problem, with it being so frustrating I'm not going to get too 700hrs in the vain hope of standing a chance....... and I suspect neither will other players.........
That is not reflected by queue times. You know there is a reason why killer queue times are longer than survivor queue times, no matter the time of day?
I will say though, matchmaking might be screwing you over. Sadly, the matchmaking in this game is not very good at all. But you surely can win even against really good survivor teams, your skill just needs to be at the same level. The killer buffs of the last patch really helped with making that more fair.
Of coruse, if you are playing an M1 killers like Sadako on a map like Cowshed, that's a different story. And those survivors sided maps, and low tier killers, still need to be addressed. But you can't balance the entire game around them, for obvious reasons. They just need to be addressed themselves.
But that should only happen once BHVR actually does something against camping and tunneling. Then, when the queue times have hopefully evened out again, they can continue to try and improve the game, but they need to do it for both sides. Or queue times will simply become imbalanced again.
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I 100% want a version of DBD where DS could finally be basekit. This would make sure survivors all had a fair chance to stay long enough in the match, and would make sure that going for different survivors would be the optimal play by the killer, which in return would make sure that every survivor can enjoy the match and have a fair game.
But I fear, even with the baseline killer buffs, we aren'tr quite there yet. The endurance effect being increased to 10 seconds is a must in my opinion, but DS basekit would also require some other changes, mainly map balancing, especially the very survivor sided maps, and buffs to low tier killers.
I also think the devs should just increase the hook phase duration from 60 to 70 seconds, and remove hook grabs. That would already help against camping a lot, and be a great first step. It would also be much easier to do.
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@Mandy said:
With regards to the point about hook timer being paused if the killer is nearby. This was something that was tested some years ago and found to not work - it's very easily abusable. A survivor running in an area around the hook, killer chasing - that would pause the timer for example. Which is something out of control of the killer.
Whilst I completely agree that players should be encouraged not to camp, I do not feel that punishing for camping should be the route we go down (please bear in mind this is purely my own opinion here)....it should still remain player choice whether they wish to camp or not.
Only encouraging killers to not tunnel and camp just isn't enough if tunneling and camping remain strong strategies though, that's the problem. This is especially because those strategies take much less skill, so killers struggling will resort to those strategies when they aren't doing so well, for an easy way out. Which is really not fair to survivors.
These strategies being so unfun is also a serious problem. I would still argue we are seeing this in queue times. Survivors shouldn't be at the mercy of the killer to play fairly and in a fun way.
We need both encouragements to not camp and tunnel and discouragements to camp and tunnel. We got the former with the 6.1.0 update, now we just need the latter, in my opinion.
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Killers were buffed to increase their overall viability. A change that would have been fantastic if it would have come along with adequate nerfs to camping and tunneling, and potentially additional nerfs to a few of the slowdown perks that weren't nerfed.
Dead Hard was changed so it wasn't able to just give survivors the distance they needed to get to the next pallet or window. Or cover up their misplay at a pallet loop.
BT permanantly was to counter tunneling a bit, but 5 seconds is just not nearly enough.
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@Crowman said:
Because the game is more complex than just "don't camp".
There's valid reasons for the killer to be near the hook such when other survivors are heading towards the hooked survivor or the hooked survivor is between a 3-4 gen area that the killer wants to defend. Reassurance with the current values is way to effective at forcing valid situations into lose-lose situations on the killer which isn't exactly fair.
Not to mention the ability to grief other survivors by preventing them from dying. If you think a killer facecamping you to death for 2 minutes is bad. 2 survivors can "facecamp" you forever.
God I hope this is joke. How desperate are people to defend camping like this just so they can win some games?
It helps the survivor on the hook to survive for longer, so camping killers get punished. It doesn't stop killers from going for other survivors, or defending a 3 or 4 gen close to the hooked survivor. It just helps that hooked survivor to have a bit more of a chance to survive if the killer is also focused on them.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3126630#Comment_3126630
The game is balanced around the option of camping, and BHVR said proxy camping is fine. It is specifically facecamping that BHVR said they wanted to do something about.
BHVR still hasn't addressed the reasons why killers camp, and one of those reasons are survivors that use voice communication to tell each other where the killer is, so that the survivors can hide easier if the killer goes too far away from the hook. Proxy camping is a valid counterplay to survivors hiding.
It really isn't anymore, not after the bunch of buffs killers received.
I understand that camping needs to be at least somewhat of an option, but it can still be made less effective without making the killer powerless in the scenarios where he needs to camp.
In most cases, a killer needs to camp when other survivors are nearby. But the killer can still spread damage among those survivors, despite the hook phase duration being increased from 60 to 70 seconds, and hook grabs being removed.
And no, survivors going for stealth shouldn't be a reason for killers to just sit by a hooked survivor and kill the survivor without any skill at all.
If people want queue times to go back to normal, nerfs to camping and tunneling will need to happen.
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@Vetrathene said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3122670#Comment_3122670
I agree with the increase to the endurance effect you get on unhook being increased to ten seconds. But if you increase the hang time by another 20 seconds for each survivor, its nullifying the increased gen time and we are back at square one. I think what should happen is if a killer stays within 16 meters of a survivor and dosen't enter chase or leave the area after 5 seconds the hook state slows down. The effect will get weaker and weaker as each gen is done, until there is no longer a penalty to camping once the exits gates are powered. This way camping only becomes effective in the late game, which would at least make the games be more fun and discourage from camping early.
It 100% doesn't nullify the increased gen times. Gen times buy killer time to go for more chases, and chase survivors off of gens. How long a survivor can hang on a hook won't matter in that case.
In the case of a fair playing killer, the pressure to unhook survivors isn't really the time they can spend on a hook. But more the fact that you do not want two survivors hooked at the same time.
So no, giving survivors a bit more time to unhook another survivor won't nullify gen time increase, since killers have more time to work for more, additional hooks against survivors, no matter how fast the survivor on a hook will reach the next hook phase.
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@Sandt21 said:
Two Honest questions incoming regarding to camping and tunneling
1) Do you believe that each survivor is entitled to three hooks per game?
2) Do you believe that each survivor, after being unhooked, is entitled to a reset in their game, meaning that after being unhooked, they should get some time to regroup and whatnot without having the killer come after them, since they were the last one the killer came after?
To an extent, yes, but it depends on how they play.
But there are easy nerfs to camping that wouldn't go so far. Increasing the hook phase duration from 60 to 70 seconds and removing hook grabs would be more than fair, now that killers got a bunch of baseline buffs. Then BHVR should also increase the haste and endurance effect duration from 5 to 10 seconds, and we are good to go. That would be a healthy, solid start to counterplay camping.
This might not make survivors "entitled" to be 3 hooked, and immune for a certain amount of time after being unhooked, but it would be a start. And it would balance queue times again. But honestly, the two points you raise here, would be good to get this game into an optimal state. Make sure survivors have a good chance of all surviving long enough before one survivor dies, but make the killer viable with such a playstyle.
Also, do you believe a killer should be entitled to a 3 or 4K just because they stood in frotnt of a hooked survivor and tunneled them out of the game?
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@AshInTheTallGrass said:
It's my opinion that most of the arguments on this forum boil down to two things: what's fair and what's fun. Sometimes, what's fun is also what's fair, but other times, what's fair is not fun. If the purpose of a game is primarily to have fun, how important should be fairness? And if so, whose fun matters the most for them to continue having a financially profitable game? How do developers handle that balance?
On top of that, we're all individuals. What's fun to me might not be fun to you. Vice versa. What I find fair, you might find unfair (because you don't like the outcome). Vice versa.
Some like to meme. Some hate it.
Some think tunneling is fair, others think it's toxic.
Truly, does anyone have an idea on how to please the majority of the community, or does everyone just have an idea of what would most please themselves? (That's a rhetorical question, but if you genuinely have an answer, I'm all ears).
You have a point, to an extent. But it stops with examples such as tunneling and camping. There is such a clear majority that thinks camping and tunneling so just so unfun, that it's barely a topic of personal preferances anymore. Even if camping and tunneling aren't overpowered, they are serious problems, because they suck the fun out for almost every survivor player. And it's not hard to realise that when looking at the feedback DBD is getting.
So yeah, some people might find camping and tunneling fair, some might not. Doesn't change the fact that it is, by miles, the most complained about aspect for survivors. And it doesn't change the fact that killer queue times can be quite long at the moment.
If you want to please your community, you have to look at the feedback you are getting, and see what the majority of people have to say. Of course you want to create a game that is fair, but it also has to be fun. For as many people as possible. This is where camping and tunneling are perfect examples of where the game is struggling at the moment. Pretty much no one enjoys going against those strategies, yet they are still as effective as they have ever been.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3122724#Comment_3122724
12 or 16 meters would probably allow survivors to activate it through a floor or ceiling, on in indoor maps from unconnected rooms that the killer can't easily reach from the hooked survivor. I thought the plan was the survivor has to risk themselves to increase the hook timer, instead of being able to safely do this where the killer can't react to it?
Lmao how is this a bad thing? It simply discouarges camping. So no, it's not a problem when survivors don't have to play as risky to counterplay freaking camping? There is no other online vs game I can think of with such a cheap and pathetic strategy being so effective.
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@Raccoon said:
There is no way to remove camping/tunneling without removing killer agency.
You can hold onto hope for Year 7, but it might be time to realize that devs aren't going to force players to/prevent players from doing X.
Well they kind of will have to if they ever want to go back to normal queue times for both roles.
You can not prevent camping and tunneling completely, but you can nerf those strategies enough so they aren't as effective as playing normally, and therefore discourage people from using those strategies.
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@BrokenSouI said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3122720#Comment_3122720
My guy. I can list PLENTY of situations other then hook swarming and end game.
There's a 3 gen I want to keep ?
Maybe the survivor got greedy for a flashie save. Instead of running away. Now I have 2 hooks within 10 meters. I don't care how unfun you find the situation.
You as the survivor caused that situation and should be punished for it. Not get off Scott free. Not from teleporting hooks. Not from paused timers. Not from any half assed suggestion that's been thrown out. I can go on with the situations and when it makes sense. But your notion of "only hook swarming and end game !!" Are completely wrong imo
There's a 3 gen I want to keep ?
How do increasing the hook phase duration to 70 seconds and removing hook grabs nerf killer in any way so they can't defend their 3 gen anymore? Please explain, cause I am really curious. The idea is to nerf camping, it wouldn't effect your 3 gen. You could still defend 3 gens perfectly fine, but the hooked survivor would have a bit more of a chance to escape the hook.
Maybe the survivor got greedy for a flashie save. Instead of running away. Now I have 2 hooks within 10 meters. I don't care how unfun you find the situation.
So you are describing the situation of having 2 survivors hooked closeby? How would a 70 second hook phase and no hook grabs make that so weak? You'd still have the upperhand easily, because two freaking survivors are on the hook. It would simply help survivors in that situation a bit, but as a killer, you would still be dominating that scenario. Even with much crazier suggestions you would.
You as the survivor caused that situation and should be punished for it. Not get off Scott free. Not from teleporting hooks. Not from paused timers. Not from any half assed suggestion that's been thrown out. I can go on with the situations and when it makes sense. But your notion of "only hook swarming and end game !!" Are completely wrong imo
I am at a loss of words honestly. You don't seem to care for survivors fun at all.
So one mistake should just screw over the entire survivor team? Then we really should nerf killers back to how they were before the patch. You know, why shouldn't they be punished for a few mistakes?
A survivor can mess up and get downed without the game being lost immediately for survivors. One or two mistakes shouldn't mean the survivor now can not play the rest of the match anymore. What even is that logic?
Killer queue times have increased a lot, so I still am convinced BHVr will have to do something. And nerfing camping and tunneling is by far the most obvious solution. Camping and tunneling are the cheapest gameplay strategies I have ever seen in an online game. Your justifications won't change that.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3122711#Comment_3122711
"And if you are getting looped close to a hooked survivor for ages, that's a you problem."
https://sayingimages.com/wp-content/uploads/jackie-chan-wait-what-meme.jpg
Survivors literally dictate the path of a chase dude. I can't chase someone somewhere they're not already going.
You have to be kidding right?
Let's just forget the fact that you are completely ignoring the suggestions I have made to actually nerf camping, and that they have nothing to do with detecting a killer nearby a hooked survivor.
Yes, a survivor can run towards a hooked survivor. But then, believe it or not, if you do not suck as a killer, you should be able to down them quickly enough, or force them to another loop, further away from the hooked survivor.
Not that hard to do, and that is what I meant. If a survivor is trying to loop you at a hooked survivor, just injure or down them.
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@BrokenSouI said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3122954#Comment_3122954
Everything is a problem for new and casual players. Even trapper. By that logic trapper needs nerfed to help them. Hook grabs are ok
Dude. The problem with camping is that it's so easy to perform as a new killer, but not easy to counter as a new survivor. So even more reason to remove it if it doesn't even work against good survivors? Or why would you want to keep it?
These strategies will have to be nerfed, if BHVR ever wants to retrun to balanced queue times.
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@BrokenSouI said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3122702#Comment_3122702
Whatever you say. They really can't change that much about it. Without taking away the times it makes sense to camp and tunnel
The only situations where you want to camp are when survivors are swarming a hooked survivor. And in that case you can still just do damage to those survivors, if you are a semi-competent killer that is.
They need to increase the hook phase duration from 60 to 70 seconds, and remove hook grabs. That would be a great start. Then also increase the haste and endurance status effect duration after being unhooked to 10 seconds, or give survivors a sprint burst during the 5 seconds after being unhooked. That would nerf camping and tunneling properly, while not making killers too weak suddenly, even if they have good reason to camp.
The other situation is obviously end game, but survivors definitely should have a better chance of getting a 4 man escape than they have right now. Killers also have a fair chance to get a 4k.
These changes need to happen, or killers will continue to enjoy their killer queue times, which is a shame, because I am really looking forward to playing Wesker.