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@Friction said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3153309#Comment_3153309
As a casual player balancing things around high MMR is a mistake, sorry to say. why balance around the 1%? I find it interesting that most people use high MMR as a justification for balance when the majority aren't there anyway. Is this bias because people watch streams?
I'm at low MMR (I think) and my partner and I, lose 80% of our games these days. :(
I mean, I don't think the game is only balanced around the top 1% players. The game would be in a worse state if that were the case. Instead, the devs are trying to find a good middle ground.
I know survivors do need some help, mainly against camping and tunneling. I just don't agree with how bad the game is at the moment. I do think that at low mmr, the problem goes beyond balance. Also, is it really 80%? Or just an exaggeration?
I think one problem with low mmr is the fact that, at first, it comes down to survivors to somehow know how to loop. The survivors skill dictates chases at the most fundamental level. Then the killers skill comes into play. The killer wants to outplay the survivor that is using defenses against the killer. But if the survivor does not know how to loop at all, or how to use anything in chases effectively, then the killer won't really need much skill to begin with to down that survivor very fast. How much skill a killer needs depends especially on the skill of the survivor.
So I do feel like the tutorials for survivors need to improved. They need to teach some tipps and tricks on how to play survivor more effectively, how to loop a bit, and how to use resources in chases at least a bit effectively.
And then, I really do feel like camping and tunnelng are two of the biggest problems at low mmr. The reason is that it takes much less skill to camp and tunnel, than it takes skill to counter those strategies. So there you've got a clear imbalance at low ranks. So I really hope they do nerf camping in the future as well, and then nerf camping and tunneling even more, the more they improve the game's balance over time.
This is why I do think the game is heading in the right direction. Buff killers in general, especially buffing their fair and skillful gameplay, and then nerf cheap tactics like camping and tunneling. Tunneling is getting a nerf now, that's great. But I do hope they also nerf camping as well, before they continue with other balance changes, which buff or nerf killers and survivors in different way.
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@ThiccBudhha said:
He is a good killer, so of course survivors will cry. They do that even when the killer sucks, to be fair. But Wesker is genuinely good. We are going to bathe in the Nile of salty tears come release.
I don't think that's fair. Demogorgon is not weak in chase and he is like the most beloved killer to go against.
People complain more about killers like Artist, that while not op, don't allow for a lot of counterplay. There isn't that much survivors can do against someone like Artist to have an impact on the duration of the chase. And that's what people don't enjoy a lot of the times.
And I do not see that being the case with Wesker, even considering the buffs he is getting.
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@ShinobuSK said:
I never played ptb but just from watching he seems super annoying to play against.
He was extremely fun to go against for me. He actually has a fair amount of counterplay at loops, because he can't ignore pallets or windows, and has a long charge time, so I don't see how that would be so annoying to go against.
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I don't see how these buffs would make him unfun to go against. He still has the fundamental aspects that make sure a killer's anti-loop isn't too opressive if you ask me.
I think what is most key here is the long charge time of his ability. 1,5 seconds is arguably longer than any other power I know at the top of my head. He also has a 1,5 second cooldown after canceling his power, which is also very good and important.
The second important aspect is that he can't injure survivors over pallets, windows, or objects. He does have counterplay against windows and pallets, by being able to vault them, but the cooldown makes sure it isn't overpowered. In fact, I am positive that part of his kit will allow for interesting mind games at pallets, especially when they aren't dropped yet. It's one of the best aspects of his kit if you ask me. It will be a bit similar to Huntress, as in deciding whether you want to drop the pallet or not, but the requirements for that decision will be different.
The collision reduction and his faster movement speed in between bounds will help him a bit at loops, but I don't see those making too much of a difference. His power will most likely still be very weak at circular shaped loops, for example. And still strong at tiles like T-L walls or Jungle Jyms, but surely not without it's counterplay.
Same goes with being able to hit survivors that are vaulting, which in general was just a bug most likely.
And his hitbox will also be reduced a bit, so survivors have a slightly better chance at dodging his dash, which will add a bit more counterplay to him. If anything, I could see his power becoming a tad weaker at the loops he was strong at, because survivors will have a slightly higher chance of dodging Wesker, but stronger at loops he struggled with.
I guess the one thing that could make or break his fair counterplay is the hitbox size while or after he vaults a pallet or window. If it's too big, that could be a problem. If it isn't, and I doubt it will be, then he should be fine.
Of course I do not know for sure, but I am fairly positive he will still be very fun to go against. He was so fun to go against on the ptb, at least in my opinion, and I don't feel like any of the buffs should change that in any impactful way. If they would have given him 3 charges for example, now that would have been a different story. But luckily, they only buffed him carefully.
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I 100% disagree. Thing is, in a game like DBD, overpowered killers are always much more problematic than underpowered killers. Because with underpowered killers, even though it's not ideal, killer players can just not pick those killers, and instead use killers that are indeed viable.
Survivors don't have that option when it comes to avoiding overpowered killers. Whether they want it or not, they will have to go up against an overpowered killer if that's what the killer player picked.
Which is why nerfing overpowered killers in general should always have priority to buffing underpowered killers.
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If they continue to balance the current mode to get into a better place step by step, then after that I would love to see a completely new game mode as well. But I wouldn't expect one any time soon, not even some time next year to be honest.
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Well everyone has their own preferences. Especially depending on what experience you have with the different franchises.
I for one am beyond excited for Wesker. I love that he is more a villain type killer. And I haven't played single Resident Evil game. I just think wesker as a character is awesome, and I also love his gameplay a lot.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3153860#Comment_3153860
30 seconds of the killer's time, to start with.
And this is solo queue, you have no coordination. 2 people get off a gen simultaniously to use the perk? One person has just wasted all that travel time that could be on a gen. You heading over? Still travel time with no guarantee someone's on a gen. You're heading over and someone saves? Wasted time. You use the perk but someone saves anyway? Wasted time.
SWF efficiency will make the perk strong. Solo queue will struggle to use it.
I mean, isn't that kind of a solo queue issue in general? I guess if the killer doesn't camp, and two survivors go for the unhook, the survivor unhooked can at least be healed fast. But still not always that ideal.
I still think Reassurance will be decent, even for solo queue. I mean, if two survivors run to a survivor that is being camped, having Reassurance will still be very valuable, compared to not having Reassurance. And maybe, even though I am not very optimistic about it, when a survivor uses Reassurance on a survivor that already had Reassurance used on them, the second Reassurance time will just get added on top of the already existing Reassurance time, instead of reverting it back to 30 seconds.
I would still love if they reverted the Reassurance nerf, but if not, I hope they at least make it so mutliple Reassurances can stack. Also, to be fair, I would be even more happy if they just nerfed camping at base, in an upcoming patch. Maybe the next midchapter update, it would be so awesome.
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@HP150 said:
Eh? I'll queue up for whichever gives me the BP bonuses. Actually, this is the first chapter in a long, long time that actually made me more excited for the survivor perks than the killer+killer perks, so there's that.
Though, they really should add new mechanics for survivors; playing a new killer is almost always a new experience, whereas (balance aside), Survivors still fundamentally feel the same as when the game released. M1 Generator, drop pallets / vault windows in chase, do hook rescues, etc, etc...
I'm not saying the game needs to become F13 / VHS / Evil Dead where you actually fight killers, but we definitely need a new mechanic similar to pallets / vaults to spice things up.
Some form of new mechanic would really be cool, I do agree. As long as it is balanced in some form, you know, by not just increasing the amount of defenses survivors have, because otherwise maps would need to have the amount of pallets and windows reduced.
I would love if they could come up with some kind of new item as well. Just no idea what that could be.
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Lmao what even is this post? Are people on these forums nowadays trying to win some comedy award?
My queue times for killers have been longer than survivors, no doubt. And survivors do need help, especially against camping and tunneling. But this post is so exaggerated, holy crap.
My queue times as killers have been steady for quite a while. I do not see more and more survivor players leaving this game. At least not a noticeable amount. Obviously, the devs will want to keep improving the game, or slowly things will get worse, and now it's time for survivors to be improved. But this post here of you is just so exaggerated.
In fact, Survivors are being buffed by having their anti-tunnel mechanic be buffed in the coming patch. So I have no idea what the next update has to do with this when talking about balance. I do think it won't be enough, camping will also need some form of nerfs, and/or it would be nice for solo survivors to get some information buffs as well. But BHVR showed that they are indeed listening. And I hope they continue to listen.
When it comes to killer queue times being longer because of a new killer, well yeah, that's always been the case. It surely will be more noticeable with Wesker. But I doubt it will be that much worse either. The game is not in the ruined state some people make it out to be.
I hope you also realise that current queue times suggest that there are still more survivor players than there are killer players? Because a 4:1 ratio of survivor players to killer players is needed for balanced queue times.
Also, holy crap, why do some people still pretend like killer is so easy now? It isn't, if matchmakng works at least. Againt good survivors, you are still up for quite the challenge. If killers left because killer was too easy, why are people like Otz or Scottjund still playing the game? They are clearly extremely good at killer, yet can still lose, even after the patch.
Killers just have a fairer fighting chance now, especially at high ranks. The main problem is that killers have cheap tactics to fall back on, camping and tunneling, as well as perhaps a few builds that can be a bit overwhelming. Though I am more just mainly thinking of a certain perk which is Pentimento. That is indeed a problem. But the entire sentiment that killer is now so easy just because of the buffs they got is ridiculous. It makes it sound like gen times were increased to 120 seconds or so.
Edit: I also love how you are sure that Wesker will be unfun to go against. Just because a killer is strong doesn't mean he is unfun to go against for many survivors. I have played against Wesker a ton on the ptb, he is actually really fun to go against if you ask me. And I am optimistic many people will feel that way, because the design of his anti-loop alone just allows for a fair amount of counterplay. Unless I am missing some broken part of the buffs he is receiving, which really aren't big buffs, I doubt he'll be unfun to go against for many people.
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@Phasmamain said:
Because no one will want to run it in solo queue anymore thus the camping issue persists
Why wouldn't people run it in solo queue? It's effect is still strong. It never should have gotten nerfed, but I for sure will still use it, even in solo queue.
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@indieeden7 said:
Agreed, perks that are only good when multiple survivors use them will never see use outside of SWF.
Pretty positive Reassurance will still be a fairly strong perk, even when only 1 survivor runs it. 60 extra seconds on a hook is definitely impactful. It's just a shame it even got nerfed, because it really didn't need a nerf at all.
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A survivor on hook should just get their own prompt of Reassurance, to deactivate it again. The same prompt that is used to activate Reassurance.
I think if the survivor on the hook would have to activate Reassurance, that would cause some very big frustrations. The survivor on the hook might not know and realise you have Reassurance, and it would be so frustrating to run up to the hooked survivor, and then nothing happens. It would be a huge middle finger to solo queue.
Meanwhile, if survivors kept on getting skill checks while the timer is paused, I could see that getting very tiring.
So I do agree that the Reassurance nerf should be reverted, but the survivor on the hook should just be able to deactivate the perk if they want to.
But to be fair, I would rather have BHVR nerf camping in some fair way or form at base anyways, and not only with a specific perk. If camping got some nerfs in the near future, I wouldn't be mad about the nerf to Reassurance at all anymore. Simply increasing the hook phase duration from 60 to 70 seconds, and removing hook grabs, would go a long way.
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I don't see it. Killers are not overpowered now against survivors. Nurse and Blight are, but the rest aren't.
I've been playing solo queue again and have been winning a decent amount of my matches. If anything, the game has more of a matchmaking problem than a balance problem. But I think this problem goes even further, to the tutorials. This game desperately needs a good tutorial that doesn't just teach survivors the absolute basics, but teaches them how to play more effectively. I feel with killer, you learn to play effectively more naturally, while survivor, there are more aspects you need to learn extra to really play effectively.
Killer is also not easy. If you go against good survivors, you will be in for a challenge, that's for sure.
Survivors do need some help now. Camping and tunneling are surely a problem. Luckily, tunneling is getting addressed in a good way in the next update. Now I am also just hoping for some fair camping nerfs. And in the future, alongside other balance changes presumably, I would love to see information buffs for solo survivors, so they are closer to the level of swf survivors.
But killers are not op, or super easy, on average now. They just aren't. At the highest mmr, I would say survivors still have a better chance at winning than killers. It's just more balanced now, and it seems fair at the moment. I don't think DBD will ever be perfectly balanced, like a 50/50 on which side wins, at the highest mmr. And as you said, it shouldn't if it hurts the average player too much.
Also, do you really have 20 mninute killer queue times? I know killer queue times aren't the best at the moment. But mine range from 5/6 minutes during the day to 30 seconds or 1 minute during the evening. Queue times do show that survivors need help now. But it's less about the general balance of the game, and more about very frustrating and unhealthy aspects of the game, like camping and tunneling, and to an extent perhaps also the lack of information solo survivors have. I do think that camping and tunneling are the biggest problem at the moment though.
Buffs to survivors that addressed these issues would probably also require BHVR to at least buff killers a bit more, especially by looking into some of the problematic, survivor sided maps still in the game.
Also, do you realise that his game needs a 4 Survivor : 1 Killer ratio? Killer queue times right now are clearly longer, but taking into account how long those queue times are, it seems like there are still more people playing survivor than killer. So claiming that solo queue will be killed by the 6.1.0 update is quite the exaggeration.
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I honestly don't get the comparison to Overwatch. You say the casuals are the ones that were ruining this game with their balance demands? But it's especially at the very high ranks where more killer players struggle, or at least used to struggle before the 6.1.0 update.
And then you argue that solo queue is bad, which is in particular a casual problem. The MMR just too often puts people of noticeably different skill levels together.
I am also not sure where you got the idea that almost only killer mains come to word in any place of the internet where DBD is relevant. On these forums, right now, there is a clear majority that thinks survivors need help now. And I see it everwhere. It sounds like you specifically only payed attention to the people that continue to complain about killers being too weak.
The Dead Hard nerf was so good. Dead Hard was a serious problem, because of the distance it gave survivors. Dead harding to a pallet or window you wouldn't have reached otherwise is not "outplaying the killer", because the killer had 0 counterplay to that. You just pressed a button and were then able to get to the pallet or window in time. In fact, Dead Hard was a problem especially in the high ranks. Not among "casuals".
The way Dead Hard now works, is fantastic. Now you really have to outplay the killer to get value out of it, and it takes quite a bit of skill. But if you do get it to work, the reward is actually noticeably greater than before, which makes it such a great perk in my opinion.
And I am pretty sure most streamers, including Otz, were very happy about it being nerfed. It needed it. The Iron Will nerf was a bit too much I would argue.
The killer buffs were also great and needed. Yes, people like Otz were able to go on 50 kill streaks or whatever, but that's because they are like the top 1% best players. Of course there won't be too many survivor teams that can win against them. And then there is matchmaking, which isn't the best either.
I have also seen streamers like Otz lose matches, even after the big 6.1.0 update.
It is true that solo survivors need some help. But we are getting a great nerf to tunneling in the next patch, which is really good. Now I am also hoping for some nerfs to camping, and things will be looking real good. Of course, I hope that BHVR will continue to improve the game's balance, and one of the things this game also needs are solo queue buffs in form of information. I don't think voice chat is the solution though, at least not the only one. Survivors need some baseline information they can work with, that swf survivors get via comms.
Killers will also need further improvements if survivors get buffed in numerous, impactful ways, of course. Like map improvements, as this game still has some very problematic maps that are pretty survivor sided. Because the truth is, aside from camping and tunneling, the game is pretty balanced at the moment, at least on average. Not really killer or survivor sided. And even camping and tunneling are less of a balance problem, as they aren't necessarily that op, but are a serious design problem, as such cheap and skillless tactics should never be so effective.
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@WeakestNurseMain said:
An easy fix is to add a +2.5 to gen kicking regression every time you hook a unique survivor with a maximum bonus of 10%, This would make gen kicking very viable while incentivizing spreading the pain.
Would that be for the entire duration of the match, or only limited? I could see 10% maybe getting out of hand if you had that for the entire rest of the match, but it's not a bad idea either.
The only thing about it is that it buffs killer more during the later game, when only few gens are left. Killers are weaker at the start of the match. So I feel like some early game delay would be nice. But only if survivors got far more help as well, solo queue buffs and further nerfs to camping and tunneling come to mind.
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Because just the one isn't enough.
We literally got a patch with a bunch of baseline killer buffs, and even on day one, when no one could say how effective those buffs would be, some people still just camped and tunneled again.
Killers got a bunch of buffs that did indeed help them, now it's the survivors time to get something against camping and tunneling. That's kind of how BHVR should balance their game.
You can't just buff killers and let survivors in the dust with their frustrations. In future, I would like to see the devs continue in this direction. Motivating the killer even more to go more for hooks with some buffs, especially by making some of the problematic maps fairer, and camping and tunneling being further nerfed, as they are very unhealthy for the game.
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Why would we want to make boon perks useless? No, please don't reduce the good perk options on the survivor side. Please just no.
Boon perks work fine the way they are now. Even CoH is kind of fine now after the last nerf. Maybe it could use some more small tweaks, but Boon perks shouldn't be wrecked like that by having Shattered Hope being basekit. Even CoH wouldn't be worth running anymore, and that's not what this game needs.
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@Junylar said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3152923#Comment_3152923
At least it was fun. Still it was better than the current totalitarian killer-sidedness.
The game is not killer sided though. Camping and tunneling are definitely a problem, but the game isn't really killer sided in general.
When you say it was at least fun, that sounds like you are only saying this from a survivors point of view. A game being really unfair for killers surely was quite frustrating for killer players.
This game is actually moving in a great direction, now that tunneling at least is also getting a nerf. I hope BHVR continues in that direction.
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I don't get whats so strong about boons that something like that should be basekit. Why should killers have the option at basekit to make certain perks useless?
CoH is in a decent spot at the moment. maybe it could need a nerf in the future, but even that I am not sure about. It's well balanced now if you ask me. And being able to destroy totems at base would make even CoH not worth running anymore, at all.
Not a good idea to have something like that be added to basekit. It's fine as a perk, it would just be nice if Shattered Hope had another effect so it wouldn't do nothing if survivors don't bring boon perks.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
They vs ######### players. Talk to people who don't. I'm ######### amazing at this game and many games. Couls t say the same for you so I find it hilarious you're judging my skill. It's like a kid with 2 left legs watching a pro footballer saying they suck and to admit it lol humourous
From what is that quote?
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3151864#Comment_3151864
He started it tho, you can check his last tweets. All drama started after he targeted everyone who liked new BT base-kit.
And i don't know they are true or not but some people found his some racist YouTube comments.
Wait, did he really? He actually targeted people who liked the nerf to tunneling? Which is an opinion shared clearly by the vast majority of the community?
I don't even get how he can still be so arrogant about his opinions. He used to have a lot of people agreeing with him, but that was at a time where killers actually struggled. That's not the case anymore. He really has a hard time accepting that he is not as good as some other killer players, and instead just continues to blame the game like a mad man. And completely does not care about survivors and their fun at all. It's crazy honestly.
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@Veinslay said:
I watch a lot of content creators and none of them play against extremely good survivors as often as tru3 does. If you're stomping mediocre and baby survivors live on Twitch every night you might think tru3's ideas on balance are ridiculous
I am sure he goes against good survivors often enough. But there are other killer main streamers that do as well. Also, I do think he is a good killer player. Just not as good as he thinks he is, and in my eyes that's why his balance ideas seem partially so killer biased. They are, because he seems to believe he should lose pretty much none of his games. I also feel like he increased his mmr to a point where he doesn't really belong into, with camping and tunneling.
If this game was ever balance around people like tru3, the game would probably die within a month or 2, because no one would want play survivor anymore, and killer queue times would be insufferable.
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@I_CAME said:
I mean this guy has gotten into a fight with half of the DBD content creators. At a point you have to consider the fact that maybe he's the one causing the drama. Just saying.
While I do kind of agree with that, that's still no reason to harrass him like crazy. Some people seem obsessed with him, which is kind of disturbing.
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I dislike tru3 a lot. He is arrogant, and such a hypocritce, it's insane. He also has insanely killer sided views, that do not aline with the general opinion of the community, but acts like he is the sane voice of the community.
But I agree, crap like that is just so overboard. I understand when people criticise him, maybe even make fun of him in some random posts. But why on earth people would go out of their way to harrass him, and make his life miserable, is beyond me. It's weird, from what I have seen some people seem almost obsessed with him. Which is honestly pretty disturbing. So I guess you can't even fault tru3 alone for his arrogance.
To be fair, it would really help if he stopped being so arrogant with his opinions, especially considering just how killer biased some of his opinions are compared to the general viewpoints of the average community on the game's balance. He acts like he knows how to balance the game better than anyone else, despite the vast majority of people clearly not agreeing with him. It would also really help if he didn't talk so much smack about anyone who doesn't share the same viewpoints he has, and that have opinions tilted a bit more towards survivor, or even just more balanced view points. Though to be fair, enough people do that to him as well.
But that's no reason to go out of your way to harass someone.
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It's not killer sided. Just no. And some of these claims you make after 30 hours is pretty ridiculous actually, lmao.
Let's be honest, it's not impossible for some people to be better at a game when they start, than most people are when they start a game. So maybe that's the case with you. I have a friend that has played the game for like 50 hours and can loop killers better than survivors with 100 hours or more.
DBD is however also known to be more killer sided, the lower in rank you go.
A big problem is that there are far more little extra aspects and nuances that survivors must learn and understand to play efficiently, than killers. As killer, you just play, and there isn't too much you need to learn to play effectively, at least at lower ranks. Obviously you want to get better at chases, and map pressure, but still. With survivor, instinctively you would think you want to play very careful, and avoid the killer at any cost. Playing afraid pretty much. But that is not effective at all.
It's hard to tell what exactly is the problem, but the game surely takes longer for surviors to learn how to play effectively. And I am talking about al the things you need to know in each role, not the actual gameplay, and mechanical skill. I guess it's maybe because it's the survivors job to not only evade and be chased by the killer, but also to get the objective going and done.
As a killer it feels like playing a child in basketball. You have to intentionally screw up sometimes to create the appearance that its actually competitive. As a survivor it feels like everyone on the team needs a perfect. Every mistake, missed skill check, mistimed vault/pallet, bad communication, has serious repercussions.
DbD has survived for a long time. It's a fun game with a cool theme. But a crazy design that things are so easy for the killer from the beginning while the survivors need to master multiple skills and, ideally, play in a group with chat.
This one here is pretty crazy to lmao. You think you can make such judgements just based on 30 hour gameplay? What you call "handholding", in every case, is just vital information for killers. You really think people would still play killer if they couldn't see the aura of the main objective they have to defend, or if they couldn't see scratchmarks of survivors, so that survivors could just lose the killer all the time? What on earth?
Also, in general, killer mistakes are more punishing than survivor mistakes. If the survivor team is actually doin gens, that is.
Do you have to remember where the generators are? Nope.
Hooks? Nope, we'll tell you that.
Skills checks? Of course not.
Did something go wrong and you aren't sure where the noise came from? Oh, here's a visual icon as well.
Have trouble finding hiding survivors? Here are some perks that let you see them. Hah, of course we won't let the survivors know you have them.
Like I just said. This here has nothing to do with handholding, it's just vital information for killers to be able to actually have a chance to find and pressure survivors. You can not actually believe the game would be fine without this information, right?
Chases are another example of this. After you hit a survivor they get a speed boost. Cool, you can still run them down.
Oh, you lost sight of them? No problem, scratch marks.
No scratch marks? Don't worry, blood trail.
Oh, can't see the blood? We got you, we'll have them wine so loud you can't help but find them.
This I also find quite baffling. I really hope this post here is even genuine. But if it is, you probably don't realise that this game is balanced around survivors wasting time of the killer during chases, so other survivors can do gens. It's not balanced around survivors being able to lose the killer easily. If survivors could do that, the game would be pretty broken. The claim of "you can just run them down" is not really accurate, because you actually have to down them in chase, and survivors have defenses they can work with to not go down.
To be fair, this also might be one of the reasons why killers are stronger at low ranks. In the end, at first place, the chase is dictated by the survivor. Because they are the ones running away, and have to use defenses against the killer. That's when killer skill comes in to play, with which they can then try to outplay the survivors. But if a survivor has no clue at all on how to loop and waste a killers time in chase, then the killer doesn't really need skill to begin with to down them.
I guess tutorials are one area where the game is still lacking big time. The devs really need to add better tutorials that properly teach survivors how to play more effectively to win matches.
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It's balanced now, but still potentially very good in my opinion.
After the nerf probably my favorite survivor perk to use. It's so fun to use, it takes far more skill, but also feels much more rewarding when you get it to procc. It's one of the best designed perk now if you ask me.
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@GoshJosh said:
Well dang, maybe if BHVR would have listened to the community and nerfed bloodlust instead of buffing it, maps could be nerfed. But they didn’t do that, did they? Forcing a killer to break a pallet is the only way to stop bloodlust.
They also gave all killers 10% faster actions across the board, and lessened a survivor’s speed boost after injury.
I mean bloodlust is more a fix for problematic map design, not the other way around. Both Bloodlust nerfed or removed, and better map balance, would have to happen at approximately the same time.
The 10% faster actions and 10% decreased sprint burst duration really do not play a big role here though, when it comes to actual bad map designs. Survivors still have more than enough time to get to some tile after being hit by the killer.
This map shown in the video is pretty balanced if you ask me. Maps that are pretty small can have more pallets that are safe, than maps that are big. But maps like Eyrie of Crow, are a big problem. Even with bloodlust considered. No idea why they even buffed bloodlust. They should just take a look at maps like Eyrie of Crow and make them at least somewhat more balanced.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3151608#Comment_3151608
i don't think map size contributes very much to killer's problems. usually, big maps just exaggerate holding-w before the chase and gen spread where getting into a chase takes longer due to walking distances. sure it plays factor but nowhere near as the pallet problem.
I didn't want to fully critique the gameplay, though i couldn't help myself on first account. i don't think pig is alone. take any of low-tier killers that are m1 centric and they have same problem. Trapper, Wraith, Sadako, Ghostface, Myers, Legion and the killer that have chase powers.... 90% of them, you can just outplay as survivor rendering the power ineffective. Like you think Wesker is going to be having different results vs these pallets when dropped? news flash, it's going to be similar for him.
Big maps make it noticeably harder to apply proper map pressure. So I do think that map sizes can play an important role as well.
In my experience, Rancid Arbattoir has always been a fairly balanced map.
Also, yes, I realise that all those killers you listed struggle. That's why many people are also asking for buffs to those killers. But that's more an issue of those killers being too weak.
Also, killers with good chase powers can still be outplayed by survivors, rendering their power ineffective? To be fair, if a survivor outplays a killer, than they deserve to not be hit by their chase power. But if you are arguing that survivors can render anti-loop killers chase powers useless if they only play well enough, so that the killer doesn't have any outplay potential themselves, then I don't know what to tell you. That is just 100% not true.
And yes, I think Wesker, just like a bunch of other killers in this game, will have less trouble on these type of maps. Like, are you really telling me he is going to struggle just like an M1 killer? Because then you don't seem to know how to play chase killers effectively.
To be fair, Wesker's chase power seems to have more counterplay than a lot of others, which is a good thing. At some loops, it won't do much. But at other loops is has a lot of potential. Especially loops like Jungle Jyms or T-L walls.
But his power will also be really strong in between loops. That already will set him apart from M1 killers a lot.
So honestly I have no idea how you could come to the conclusion that a killer like Wesker, not to mention killers with stronger anti-loop potential, would struggle almost as much as M1 killers.
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I mean, more information is always great for solo queue. But I feel like this just falls under the category of buffing solo queue in general with more information. Like survivor icons showing each other what everyone is doing.
When it comes to camping though, I'd rather have them nerf the actual strategy properly. Maybe nothing crazy, Just enough so it's a good start, and we can see where the game stands after some decent camping nerfs.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3149298#Comment_3149298
i wouldn't say its maps themselves. the maps look beautiful. its more of the pallets. too many safe pallets that force killer to break pallet because their ability doesn't help them in the chase/outplay survivors.
just looking at your video, go and check how many pallets you were forced to break as killer on that map
0:32 - jungle gym pallet
2:56 - jungle gym pallet ->kate made movement error that you could got a hit on.
3:12 - cow loop pallet
3:33 - shack pallet
3:57 -safe filler pallet
4:36 -long wall pallet.
5:02 - safe filler pallet
5:24 - first unsafe pallet.
8:00 -long wall pallet
you had to break 8 pallets and you got to play 1 pallet. i think map had like ~3 more pallets. killers are suppose to use their ability to get downs at the pallets.... but pig ambush dash is .... not very good for any of those safe loops. Its mostly similar for all other maps. you have to break 80% of pallets and like 20% are pallets that killer gets gameplay at. Its why 10% pallet breaking speed doesn't do much since you can still chain all these loops and the killer lacks gameplay at them.
See, on big maps like Eyrie of Crow, I would agree. Rancid Arbattoir is one of the smallest maps in the game, so the higher amount of safe pallets are not a big deal.
3:12 - OP could have easily gotten a hit their with a lunge.
3:33 - OP outmindgamed the Kate, just to then let her get to the pallet for free. That was a 100% guaranteed down.
4:36 - long wall pallet misplayed clearly. They could have clearly gotten a hit there.
And these 3 examples are justregarding potential hits at those pallet loops, and nothing else. No talk about map pressure and stuff for example.
Also, Pig is an M1 killer. Most killers don't struggle with these pallets nearly as much. This is why M1 killers are generally considered too weak. But that doesn't necessarily have to be because they are too weak in chase, but instead because the rest of their basekit just doesn't make up for the lack of their chase power.
Too many safe pallets are not good. Normally. I do agree with that. However, there are maps with more safe pallets than Rancid Arbattoir, and Rancid Arbattoir makes up for the safe pallet loops with it's very small size.
Farm maps in general are a bit problematic, because they have far more safe tiles than many other map realms. But Rancid Arbattoir really isn't a problem.
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@itsquiet27 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3149288#Comment_3149288
yes for activating the traps faster. But tbh they weren't amazing. They were playing as basic as you could and they got SO REWARDED for they're gameplay that I ended up with 1k only. If you watch closely in the video you can see that they had so much resources. Back to back loops or tiles. Anyone can play the way they did as a survivor even me and even you. But when you play normal with killer you get punished
Dude you did not play well at all. I have only watched a few parts of the vid and I have already seen multiple instances where you could have easily gotten a hit against survivors.
You argue that anyone can play survivor the way they did, but that's because you didn't play very well yourself. This has nothing to do with map design.
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I haven't watched the whole video, all I am going to say is that Rancid Arbattoir, in my opinion, is like the one farm map that is actually pretty damn balanced. That and maybe Rotten Fields now. It has it's fair share of safe pallet loops, and a strong window, but it's also one of the smallest maps in the game. So I don't think that map is a good example of flawed map design.
Fractured Cowshed, now that is a teriible map.
Also, I think people agree that Pig is still one of the weaker killers, so that also plays a factor here. And it seems like you have also made a fair amount of mistakes during the match, judging by other comments here.
Edit: Ok I just saw that play at killer shack at about 3:25. That was a 100% guaranteed down, you completely messed that up yourself. Not helpful if you blame the game for bad plays, it won't help you to improve. Though I do understand killer is tougher on console, but still.
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@DredgeyEdgey said:
Yeah it has me concerned for the end game collapse
But why? Shouldn't survivors also have a fair chance at getting a 4 man escape? Because I feel at the moment, the end game is definitely in the killers favor of getting one kill during it, which doesn't seem fair. We got the hatch mechanic so that killers would have a fairer chance at getting a 4k as well.
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I've been using less slowdown perks. Now that full aura builds are clearly more viable, I've been using more aura perks in particular. Never knew how fun it could be to play Huntress with just a bunch of aura perks. It's really damn strong actually.
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I can understand when people dislike gens as the only objective for survivors. I think many people would be happy if survivors had a second objective. But I personally, and I think many people, would disagree with the severity of the problem.
Scott Jund made a video on why he actually enjoys being tunneled, because it means he is being chased all game and doesn't have to do gens which he finds boring. And that can be understandable. However most responses to that in the comment section always had the same point. It's a good mixture of both that most people find so enjoyable. Working on gens is the more chill and relaxing part. Just like doing other objectives such as healing or cleansing totems.
I also think you can not reduce these objectives, especially healing or cleansing totems, to just the holding M1 actions you do. When sitting on a gen for example, you are also hitting skill checks, and more importantly, are always keeping an eye out for killer to react when you need to. With totems, you also first have to find them before cleansing them. And you do that all while trying to evade the killer.
So personally, I very much enjoy survivors depsite gens and other actions forcing me to just hold a button. As long as there is enough variety going on. If I just do gens the entire game, of course that match was just a bit boring. But in general, I don't think it's that much of a big deal. I for one, and seemingly a lot of people, have a bigger problem with camping, tunneling, and Nurse.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
I was angry yesterday about this nerf.
But i am glad they nerfed it. Because this perk will not do anything against actual facecamping and this problem will stay in game. So in future they will have to fix it with base-game mechanics.
For now, whenever Bubba is camping i will just go to next game. Like usual.
A small part of me is hoping that one of the reasons they nerfed Reassurance is because they have at least some decent nerfs planned for camping. Especially since they are nerfing tunneling properly now in the upcoming patch as well.
But maybe I am being too hopeful.
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@cyniChris said:
BHVR can't do anything right in your eyes, huh?
Reassurance, in its PTB form, was abuseable to a point where it could hold survivors hostage or make survivors literally never die.
Just because SOME killers camp doesn't mean the killers who don't should be punished. Just because SOME killers camp doesn't mean survivors who just want out of the game should be held there against their will.
Reassurance gets a nerf, while still being a very strong perk, and you act like you'll never see it. It'll be as common as old BT - you'll see it in virtually every match. And it WILL win games.
Stop whining because you can't abuse a perk.
I mean, they could have solved the problem of holding survivors hostage differently.
And there just is no way this perk would affect any killer in any significant way other than the killers that camp. Because if the killer didn't camp, the survivor could just unhook the hooked survivor anyways.
It's still going to be decently strong. I agree on that. But it was not abusable when ignoring the holding survivors hostage problem, and it did not need a nerf to begin with. Hard countering camping killers is completely fine for a perk. Especially since it does practically nothing if the killer doesn't camp.
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This would just be abused by too many people, I fear. Some people get mad over anything that a team mate does. So i actually have to disagree here.
They should instead work on matchmaking, and improve it. And to be honest, I am starting to believe the lack of a proper tutorial that shows at least to some extent how to play survivor efficiently is also a big problem. I haven't played the current tutorial myself, but from what I have heard, it only teaches you the absolute basics, and doesn't give you any advice on how to play the game efficiently as survivor.
Which I feel comes much less naturally than playing killer efficiently. With killer, you just naturally play them in a normal way. With survivors, it seems much more natural to be as afraid of the killer as needed, and to be very careful of gens. I feel like there are for more small aspects and bits that survivors have to learn extra in order to play more efficiently, than for killer.
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It's not uncommon for some people to overreact to things they don't like. Also, you can never forget, this here is a forum for feedback on the game. The people that are the most likely to visit such a forum are people that are very unhappy with the game, so they can complain about it. Forums aren't necessarily the best place to get balanced feedback on a game. But more feedback on what people see as problematic or bad with a game.
I voice a lot of criticism towards the game, sometimes I get fed up with it. And I do take my breaks from this game as well. But I also generally enjoy the game quite a bit, it does a lot right. It just also still has it's good amount of rough edges in my opinion. But at the moment BHVR is really improving, with all the balance changes we are getting lately. The upcoming anti-tunneling mechanic buff is a particular highlight.
I do always find it funny when I see a post that claims the devs only care for survivors, and then a post that claims devs only care about killers, on the same day, that's always particularly ridiculous.
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I don't see any of these as problems.
I guees I wouldn't mind if they removed survivors collision box during the endurance effect. But I also don't see how that's so problematic either. If the survivor that got unhooked bodyblocks, they just make themselves more vulnerable to being tunneled. It also simply discourages the killer just a tiny bit more to stay near hooked survivors, or immediately return back to the hooked survivor after they are unhooked, which in my opinion also just promotes healthy gameplay.
The second and third points are absolutely no problems however, and should not be changed. It's nice that survivors will now have somewhat fairer chance to actually get eveyone out during the end game. The end game is tilted quite a bit in the killers favor if survivors try to go for a save, so this is a good change in that regard as well. There is no reason for killers to have a fair chance at getting a 4K, but survivors not having a fair chance at getting a 4 man escape.
Also, I really hope BT will keep the extra 10 seconds. I guess I wouldn't be too mad if it got nerfed, but I hope it won't. Because then it would still be an interesting and attractive option, but it wouldn't feel mandatory anymore now with the 10 seconds of basekit BT.
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A second objective would be nice, but I don't think BHVR honestly has the time and resources to put in something like that at the moment.
I have to be honest, I personally don't have too much of a problem with doing gens. They can be the more relaxing and chill part of a match, in between the interactions with killers. As long as I get a good variety of everything, I always really enjoy my matches as survivor. Of course, the matches in which I only do gens with barely any interaction with the killer, are rather boring.
But I do understand why some people aren't a fan of gens. I just think right now it's very, very unlikely for the devs to add some other form of objective, and making repairing gens take less time instead, especially when looking at the road map they gave us this summer. And considering all the balance changes we have been getting recently. Which I'd rather have them focused on at the moment.
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If the killer is good enough, then no, they also will be able to still compete against good survivors, even with tunneling, and hopefully soon also camping, nerfed. You can win without those strategies. Definitely depends on the killer you are playing, and the map, but on average, you can still win even against extremely good survivor players. Might not be a 50/50 chance at times, but still winnable.
The catch is only, that you also have to be extremely good with killer. Something some people aren't, even though they believe they are.
I also seriously doubt that escape rates will go up to 75-80%. Especially considering Reassurance is getting nerfed, and still nothing is done to camping at base. I am positive in general the kill rates are definitely above 50% at the moment, probably even at the very high ranks, because of tunneling and camping.
Also, and this is another key point, but nerfing camping and tunneling more, means that killers can also receive other, more healthy buffs in the future as well, like survivor sided maps being balanced out more. Something you mention yourself. I could also see them buffing the instant regression after kicking a gen from 2,5 to 5 %, as another example.
However, at the moment, I don't think the basekit Bt buff and Reassurance wil be enough, especially not to warrant any further killer buffs. Once camping is nerfed by increasing hook phase duration tfrom 60 to 70 seconds, and hook grabs are removed, or by nerfs similar to that, then the game will be in a good spot, in my opinion in the best state it's ever been actually. And then the devs can continue to improve the game's balance, like making maps more balanced. And perhaps further nerfing camping and tunneling even more. And taking a look at the problematic slowdown perks.
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@BrokenSouI said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3148578#Comment_3148578
I defend it because I know just how bad map design is....Do you really expect a killer to just "go away from the hook, and not tunnel" Even if its advantageous for them ? The hilarity of it to me is. The one killer who DOESNT have to worry about BHVRs map design is hated and theres a new thread every 5 minutes about her. THe one killer who CAN go away from hook(especially with range) and NOT tunnel.
I defend because...Lets face it. Having the 20th pallet slammed in your face on the game. Having crotus double god window abused on you. Is no more fun then being camped or tunneled...Yet survivors have no problems abusing things in game to their advantage because "what am i supposed to do ? Just let you hit me ?" The answer is no..But the answer to "am i just supposed to NOT do something thats to my advantage as killer" Is also no.
No I definitely disagree. As do the majority seemingly. And if you think the majority of people here on these forums are survivor mains, then I do not know what to tell you.
Map design is not that bad anymore. There are still some really bad maps, Eyrie of Crows and Fractured Cowshed being the worst, but you can't balance this game around those maps.
Also, there are so many more killers that can still deal even with survivor sided maps. A lot of killers have strong anti-loop abilities, if you are getting looped with them for ages, it's almost always on you.
I understand that there is still a fair amount of unfun crap killers have to deal with. I personally don't see how any of that compares to not getting to play the game at all, but there definitely are problems for killers as well. But that doesn't mean that some problems shouldn't be addressed just because other problems exist.
Here's the thing. I definitely agree that some maps still need to be looked at in the future. No doubt. Low tier killers also will still need buffs. But at the moment, camping and tunneling clearly have the highest priority here. It's shown by the overwheling amount of complaints everywhere in the internet, and it's also shown by the current queue times. They shouldn't go to hard on those strategies, not yet at least, but they definitely need to be nerfed so survivors have a fairer and better chance at fighting back against those strategies, and winning.
The basekit BT is already going to help with that. Now they just need to inrcease the hook phase duration from 60 to 70 seconds, and then remove hook grabs, and the game will be in a great spot for the moment. Those nerfs wouldn't gut camping in any way, they would just make camping somewhat weaker, and more manageable for survivors. And that's clealry what the game needs at the moment.
Camping and tunneling are just too effective, that's all. Especially for how relatively little skill they require, in particular camping.
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@ThatOneDemoPlayer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3148374#Comment_3148374
The Killer meta isn't very varied right now. You have PR for long range slowdown and Overcharge/Eruption/Call Of Brine for 3-Genning. That's it.
Camping and tunneling still is necessary because the base-kit changes were QOL improvements, they barely changed anything. Everyone is screaming about 10 extra seconds per Generator as if it made the game piss-easy for Killers
No I can't agree. Been using only 1 or two, sometimes no slowdown perks at all, and I am doing fine. Aura perks in particular are now much more attractive because gens take longer at base.
I agree that some people are very much overreacting to the baseline buffs killers got. It didn't suddenly change up everything and made killer easy. Definitely not. But they definitely have had an impact, more than the perk nerfs in my opinion. Killer is definitely in a better spot than it was before, so I hope they don't change that.
And no, I disagree that camping and tunneling is necessary, at least generally speaking. I understand there can still be situations where this is true, which is also why I think camping and tunneling can't be nerfed too much. But some decent nerfs need to happen. Basekit BT is getting buffed, that's great.
Now we just need the hook phase duration to be increased from 60 to 70 seconds, and hook grabs removed, the latter mainly only being used by facecampers, and the game will be in a fantastic state. Those nerfs also wouldn't make camping "impossible", or extremely weak, but survivors would have a bit of a better chance at fighting back against a camping killer, and winning against such killers. And that's exactly what the game needs at the moment, shown clearly by queue times.
After that they can continue to try and improve the game's balance for both sides, hopefully further pushing the game into rewarding going for hooks more than anything else.
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@Dead_Harder said:
Buddy the most important question in a game is, is this fun?
Camping and tunneling is not fun for the survivors so they are being discouraged. And on the other hand they are also trying to make the game fun for the killer. The nerf to dead hard was mainly because it was unfun. Gens got an increased time because losing gens left and right felt terrible and so on.
You can still do it and it will still be effective, even basically mandatory on low tier killers a bit. But those strategies are getting hit because they are extremely unfun.
You can tunnel 2 guys at the same time if you are good enough though and there is basically no counter to that unless they have aura immunity.
I am going to be honest, not sure if one can call that tunneling, if you are tunneling two survivors at the same time.
Though I do get what you mean. Basekit DS would be the best solution here, and activatable twice. It would make sure that survivors always have some time after getting unhooked before they can be put on the hook again, and that would really nerf tunneling a lot, and make playing fair and going for hooks the most viable strategy.
But I don't think the game is in a state yet where such a drastic nerf to killer can happen.
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@ImNotBobDylan said:
Imo the solution is to add a sort of "Desperation Bonus":
As soon as one survivor dies, all other survivors get a +30% repair speed bonus.
The fundamental cause for tunneling is that the best way to win right now is to make the game a 3v1 as fast as possible and there is little incentive to hook other people before.
This change will be a massive survivor buff, game will need to be rebalanced after that, but in the end, I think it will make "playing nice" more viable as well as many positive effects, for example games will no longer become unwinnable just because a teammate DC'd or suicided on hook within the first 5 minutes.
That is also a great suggestion. Killers are already in a clearly better spot now, but I agree that they are not quite there yet for such a drastic nerf to tunneling. But hopefully at some point BHVR can implement these type of nerfs to DBD.
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@ThePrizz said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3149503#Comment_3149503
That's not anti tunneling at all. I'm a killer main, if you want to tunnel a guy, you still easily can, since you continue to have vision of him after you hit him, yes it will take more time since now he has a bigger movement speed boost but it doesn't fix it at all.
The problem with tunneling is that some killers will still do it even if it puts them at a disadvantage, me included. If a guy teabags me hardcore and acts all cool, I will sacrifice the whole game just to tunnel him and get him dead that's how petty I am.
This "fix" only stops the tunneling in case you think about playing in the best possible way, but most killers don't really care about doing everything perfectly and maximizing their chances to get a 4k.
I mean that's kind of the point at the moment. To just make it not as effective anymore. A lot of people use tunneling and camping because they are so effective, and take little skill compared to playing killer normally. Now they just need to nerf camping somewhat so that strategy as well isn't as effective, and the game will be in a good spot.
At some point, it would be nice to nerf camping and tunneling into the ground. It will never be 100% preventable, but they could try and make these strategies almost useless, so that killers would often just be throwing the game if they used these strategies. However, the game in general just isn't there yet for such drastic nerfs to those strategies.
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@Biscuits said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3149503#Comment_3149503
If you think 10 seconds of baseline borrowed time is going to stop people from tunneling, you must not play a lot of survivor.
To be fair, while I would love to have DS basekit at some point, and activatable twice, the game isn't quite there yet for something as drastic to be added to the game.
The buff to basekit BT is a great start. Now we just need some fair nerfs to camping, and the game is going to be in a good state. But I would hope that after that, the devs continue to balance this game more, making the fair and normal gameplay of killers even more viable, encouraging killers to really go for as many hooks as possible, and nerfing camping and tunneling further as well.
But I think these type of changes would have to happen gradually together. Some maps for example still need to be looked at, if we would want to nerf camping and tunneling into the ground.
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You can definitely get kills without playing dirty. You don't need to 2 hook everyone before getting kills, just playing normally gives you a fair chance at winning. So not just camping and tunneling a survivor out of the match as soon as they are unhooked.
Problem is, tunneling and camping right now are just too effective, especially because of the much lower skill required to pull off those tactics. Tunneling will be nerfed some more in the next patch, which is great, but camping still needs some nerfs as well. Then the best way to play killer, at least in most situations, is to not use these cheap tactics. And that's exactly what this game needs right now, after killers got a bunch of baseline buffs.