UndeddJester
UndeddJester
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As a preface, I am quite upset with the way Myers was reworked... stronger yes... but soulless. However since that ship has sailed, I will attempt to put away my bias, and be as objective as I can be with the suggestions made here.
Change the stalking sound to be played when Evil Incarnate is fully charged instead of when it is halfway.
I don't really see much point to this, since Myers identity has significantly shifted away from his old "find angle and stalk from afar" gameplay. The shorter 32m stalk range combined with there being no benefit to long range stalk beyond the measly 25% faster while stood still (from any range), makes that gameplay pretty moot. The focus for Myers now isn't to stealth stalk, it is to chase stalk, and the mid stalk warning is very much intended to push Myers into that chase stalk gameplay.
Stalker mode speed should be 4.4m/s basekit. There was no point with it being 4.2 with the old Myers, there is no point in it now either.
Similarly I don't see much point to this either, Myers can switch as he pleases, and Pursuer mode is largely pointless already, given you want to stalk and get T3 so you can start burning pallets and charging Survivors down. It's one saving grace is Pursuer mode does let you traverse the map faster at 4.6, with the trade off of a 16m TR, which is certainly managable... this does give a functional reason to use Pursuer mode more. Being 4.4m/s with pure Undetectable, with the ability to swing instantly for a hit would make Pursuer mode pretty much completely pointless, and Myers one of the stronger stealth killers in the game.
Though admittedly it would give Survivors a much stronger reason to heal (which is a point you also do raise), since any LOS blocking maps would be very much death... though I would argue Nurses Calling is already a great perk for new Myers, and would be obnoxiously good with a 4.4 Stalker mode. The point of Myers new identity is, Stalker mode is for stalking to get Slaughtering Strike, Pursuer mode is for m1 hits. Myers isn't really meant to be a stealthy m1 killer any more.
Slaughtering Strike consumes 5 seconds from your power (number could be changed later if it's too much or too little);
Not a bad idea tbh, a Blight-esk pallet break was what I wanted him to have, just without the Slaughtering Strike, but I won't start the debate on the Slaughtering Strike. Having this seems a fair trade off....though it does raise the question why Blight himself doesn't have a penalty like this and Mikey does.
Add-ons
There should be a charge speed increase add-on, it is weird that there is no option for that;
His stalk speed is stupid fast now tbh, I don't really see any reason to add this. To answer your later point of how stalk works, stalk require 5 points of stalk to charge. Standing still is 1 stalk per second (5s), moving is 0.75 stalk per second (6.66s). Any charge speed add-ons would affect both of these, and actually make the already pretty small difference between them even smaller.
Mirror Shard has a really poor design. //..// My suggestion here, connecting with the previous point, is to make it so this add-on DECREASES duration by 0.25 seconds and increase charge speed something like 10~20%
Will have to trust you here, you are probably right. Normally I would do the math, but as I say, I very much dislike the slaughtering strike and this rework, so I struggle to mount the motivation to bother.
Scratched Mirror should make Stalker Mode be 4.6, no one is playing this add-on because we don't have map offerings anymore, so at least make it a bit better;
I will agree to 4.4 m/s. You're right the loss of map offerings kill this add on, but the free mind games this brings should have a trade off.
Vanity Mirror is way too good, give it a range limit;
How so? It's just an aura reveal, and you can‘t instant down anymore... nor sure what makes this overpowered enough to warrant a nerf when you need to restalk up to use the info it gives you. If it's cause Survivors stay injured... doesn't this satisfy your "should heal" requirement?
Jewelry Box: 30% is a lot and the range decrease is not even that bad. Maybe tone it down a little bit, 20% maybe woud be fine;
Probably right given the above chase stalking point
Reflective Fragment should give an additional buff to Slaughtering Strike, I love the add-on idea but reality is that if survivors do the usual counterplay of pre-dropping every pallet you will not get good value from the add-on and it will only be a nerf to your kit;
Hahaha, you become like a better version of Pig with this add on... Good luck with that, I have no ideas 😅
Hair Brush is a weird add-on. Although it seems crazy to break a pallet at 70% extra speed (50 from the add-on, 20 basekit), it is still better to break it with your power, since it is better for zoning and catching up
Isn't this intended for helping the Fragrant Tuft and Scratched Mirror add-ons, since they don't have the Slaughtering Strike? That's my understanding of why the add-on has this effect.
Judith's Tombstone: I agree it shouldn't have the same duration as normal Evil Incarnate so it better rewards good players, but my experience with this add-on is that with 40 seconds you always hook just a bit after your power ends. I think 45 seconds would be fine, not more than that.
Fair. Nothing to add.
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@HolyDarky said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/459714/how-about-an-anti-tunnel-debuff-as-well
I think the main issue here is that doing stuff 20% slower is just awful and boring. It can also encourages survivors to play more aggressive by abusing anti-tunnel features/perks since it would be more efficient (and fun) to slowdown the killer than to sit with a 20% penalty on a gen.
Then, this penalty forces the devs to rework some perks such as Gift of Pain, Pentimento, or regression in general since they all become stronger due to the penalty. Blocking perks such as DMS, Deadlock, or Grim Embrace would also become less popular since you don't get value from the penalty if the gen is blocked anyway. Therefore, killers would move even more to regression perks as they pair well with the penalty.
Another problem is that this penalty helps stronger killers more than weaker once since Blight, Nurse, Billy, or Ghoul can often hook two or four survivors before the second gen pops which means they get more value than weaker killers.
Next, I don't like the idea in general because it punishes survivors for unhooking instead of killers for hooking. The result could be that survivors will now unhook much later or perks such as Reassure or the Felix perk becomes even more popular to keep the survivor on hook (a hooked survivor is much better than a survivor with a 20% penalty that forces the other ones not to sit on gens). It is already so stupid that a survivor can sit for 70 - 100 seconds on hook without any drawbacks and the game should not encourage this behaviour.
Overall, I think it would solve the tunnel problem, but it would create a new problem that is not better either. But don't get me wrong, I would like to see a basekit reward for killers that not tunnel and hook survivors.
Not really any points I disgaree with there, bar maybe the leave survibor on hook argument, though I have a feeling thats because of a minunderstanding where fatigue is applied on hook instead of unhook... but of course that exacerbates other points you've raised.
The greater lethality killer benefitting more? I don't disagree... though to be honest, I can't think of any anti-tunnel solution where being able to kill really fast doesn't make those killers better than others... being mobile and lethal will always be king in this game no matter what we do... tbh.
Regardless though, you highlight good issues to consider.
@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4022821#Comment_4022821
If they make the Bloodlust significant mobility wise, then it will even the playing field in terms of mobility vs non-mobility powers when kicking gens.
Killers who use their power to get around won't benefit, as using the power cancels Bloodlust. However, Killers who don't have a mobility factor to their kit would be able to move more quickly to a gen to kick it.
Aye, this is true, to the effect of at least getting to a gen. Though the catching up part is still a problem, but this might be somewhat managable.
Regardless the current proposed 5% for 15s for bloodlust needs to be seriously jacked up both in soeed and time... and I still reckon it needs to reset your Bloodlust back to 0 once you enter chases either way.
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Just pointing out, this is a thread necro.
OPs perspective is not up to date with the modern changes, so before anyone gets too invested, the context of this thread is now confusing and inconsistent.
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@Yoshirama said:
So survivors should get penalties for nor being tunneled? Lmao how delusional.
OK... but if the goal is to stop tunneling... doesn't it makes sense to make the more viable strategy not to target the Survivor off hook? That's the purpose of this whole thing right?
I answered why giving killer buffs are a problem in the post above yours. Let's say you give someone like Freddy 10% Haste off hook for 20s... lets say he takes Furtive Chase for an additional 10%... do you as a Survivor want a 5.42m/s Freddy running after you off a gen teleport? Cause that sounds pretty BS to me.
I feel pretty confident I can probably point out a problem with pretty much every combo of buffs you can think of, that leads to an absolutely dumb and unfair strategy on some part of the killer roster... and I would happily wager, the problems would almost always be on B tier killers+.
A Survivor condition on the other hand, is universal, it is consistent, it gives the same value no matter who the killer is. That seems much more balancable and maintainable that trying to shoehorn in the same playstyle on killers that aren't compatible with it. Does it not?
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4022798#Comment_4022798
I still don't think it's a good idea, even with the points you've highlighted.
I think BHVR already had a much better idea when considering bonus damage to the next generator kick, except the value could probably do with being lowered in the context of the reduced changes, probably like 5-10% extra instead of 20%.
This would give the killer means to get some extra pressure, without making it a slog for the individual Survivor hooked. It also incentivises leaving the hook with the added Bloodlust (which could do with being increased a bit from 5%), to be able to kick a gen that little bit faster.
I think any sort of measure taken to disincentivise tunnelling should primarily focus on giving both sides more tools to deal with tunnelling instead of penalising them for doing so. For example: Survivors get the tools of extra endurance, stealth and speed to more effectively buy time if they're getting tunneled; Killers get extra speed and generator slowdown for not tunnelling in order to maintain pressure without tunnelling.
Direct penalties feel terrible from a player's standpoint. Giving buffs for being tunnelled/not tunnelling is the way to go, in my opinion.
Now see I'm against kicking, cause kicking favours mobile killers, both in getting there to apply it, and to catch up after kicking. That was always my criticism of the PTB, it did nothing to help lower mobility killers, everything to help higher mobility killers.
Who benefits most from a mini Pop, Haste and BBQ? Wraith, Spirit, Wesker, Blight, Nurse, Dredge, Krasue, Ghoul, Freddy, Houdmaster, Chucky.... none of whom really need crazy help.
Who benefits least from a mini Pop, Haste and BBQ? Trapper, Hag, Pig, Skull Merchant, Ghost Face, Sadako (often doesn't hook), Shape, Cannibal, Trickster, Deathslinger... the killers who need the most help.
Now if you wanna give say... Pain Resonance, 10% Bloodlust for 30s until entering chase, and the basekit aura reveal but without distance limitation, ...that is a bit more universally useful to all killers across the board.
This is the problem of buffing killer side imo… not all killers have the same game plan... somebody is gonna get left behind no.matter what combo of buffs you give...
Now if you perhaps gave the killer classes to pick from, like 2v8, to choose the form of their buffs... now we're talking a feature that might actually work.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
I don't think we should be giving arbitrary penalties like this.
A big reason a lot of the changes were reconsidered was because adding severe penalties for certain actions felt awful, this would be a similar thing, but aimed at Survivors instead.
Hmmm... I guess, but I suppose the key differences of this compared to original proposed killer penalities are: -
- This effect is temporary, not permanent.
- I only affects 1 part of the Survivor team per hook, not the whole team.
- It doesn't stop the Survivor taking actions, just makes it less efficient.
- It isn't contradictory to the Survivor objective, you have a penalty for getting caught (which is already somethimg you don't want), not for doing something you are aiming to do, like completing a generator.
- It even encourages skillful play and Survivors playing risky by trying to take chase/make plays for max efficiency. (A survivor who has this penalty is better to be chased, instead of their non-fatigued teammates).
My one big concern is faster killers are gonna need to be brought back a peg or 2, because this is quite a boon for killers that can already play the anti-tunnel game and still realistically win majority of their games...
I mean I'm open to other suggestions, but if you consider someone like Clown... who is very adept at killing off one Survivor fast even through Survivor defences, where their whole game is on that coin flip of how fast can they kill one Survivor... how else do make killers like him viable where they can't exploit their main strength, unless their ability to down and hook rapidly for a basekit healing/gen slowdown is their strength?
It also has the nice benefits of making it so Survivor can't use their 30s endurance to linger near Killer priority gens and hex totems, then quickly rush them down when the killer leaves, there is added risk, cause they are slower and not as heavily rewarded for being risky.
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@tes said:
Some people finding new changes insignificant. I don’t expect second chances be drastically changed tbf
With all due respect friend, anyone who tries to claim basekit 30s of endurance, +10% Haste, aura read on the killer, iron will, no blood pools, and no scratch marks as insignificant... while still having their anti-tunnel perks in tact, just sucks at the game.
Sorry to be blunt, but there isn't really any other way to say it.
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Hi friend!
While I understand your irritation, I believe your focus/frustration in on the wrong part of the gameplay sequence regarding tunneling.
To offer a different perspective, the Killer has to contend already with dealing with both pallets and flashlight saves, body blocks, endurance perks, exhaustion perks, and various map hazards, all of this twice in fact, just to earn their down. Some killers obviously have this easier than others, and have powers that really make tunneling super easy... but even when not tunneling, picking up a survivor eliminates the killers ability to chase normally and use powers; they are at their most vulnerable in this moment, and are under the threat of body blocks and hook sabotages... Even merely the act of walking to the hook, is time that the killer can always afford (which is why killers sometimes slug).
If we assume that DBD is perfectly balanced (I think absoluetly no one will agree, but lets assume it is), it seems wildly unfair to have the killer in this state where they are literally too slow to even attempt to chase Survivors, with no access to their power, and have such a perk as you describe that take very little effort to use, that can reliable shut down their ability to progress their objective.
Not only that, there are perks that already helps survivors break free from wiggling, which while not strong in solo Q, on an organised team is highly annoying to face, involving the carried survivor taking Boil Over from Kate Denson, and an allied Survivor taking Breakout from Yui Kimura, made even more of a threat with Background Player from Renato Lyra. With body blocking and sabotages, it is almost impossible to hook in majority of these scenarios...
So while I believe you are genuine in tryimg to find a solution, targetting killers that are carrying Survivors is the wrong way to do it, cause you will hurt killers who aren't tunneling just as much, and if anything, encourage all killers just to slug instead.
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I think you might need to be more specific. DBD is a massive game with numerous facets. While I realise you may be venting, there are lots of layers to calling one side or the other "overpowered".
Flashlights for example become much harder to deal with as a killer with lower lethality, if players go down in the open with players hiding nearby with Background Player. The timing on blinds has a buffer on it that allows you to save far easier than it used to be. The proper timing is to blind when the killer switches their hand under the survivor to put them on their shoulder.
Aura perks come at the expense of gen slowdown perks, anti healing perks and chase perks. Yes the killer has lots of options, but they can only have up to 4, and will realistically only equip 2. If you are familiar with killer aura perks, a big portion of the game is figuring out what the opposition has. A good survivor assumes perks like Lethal Pursuer or Barbecue and Chilli, just like a good killer assumes Dead Hard or Decisive Strike.
There are also multiple reasons a killer can turn friendly, the most common one for me as kilker is one Survivor completely threw the game and didn't even make a game of it. Other times are because some killers play chill in events, such as the current haunted by daylight. Some turn friendly because of memes. There are quite a few killers who turn friendly if you play them a tune with Bardic Inspiration or One Two Three Four!
Without a description of what happened, it's hard to assess the issues you're referring to.
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@Paribean said:
What are the chances he´d look as chopped as the majority of licensed survivors.
Say what you want... I believe the pain in that expression xD
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For anyone like me who is completely unaware, but doesn't wanna Google:
https://youtu.be/4rsXOjQshJs?si=yP4jY4UWRWIGSCmWAnd the comparison to the remake.
I am gonna be honest, I have no idea how you would translate this to DBD, and still have it be recognisably the original IP.
It seems a lot of the (I'm assuming) charm of the original would be immediately lost with any kind of HD variant of the Granny character.
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I'm late to the party, but I would say teal.
Looking at her cosmetics, she tends to have a gothic flair, but it is often paired with colour schemes to be more like a mystic or shaman than straight up dark brooding witchcraft (the latter is more Sable's bag).
As such she tends to have lighter almost more nature based colours, often softer lavender shades of purple, bright flower petal like reds, or quite commonly in her cosmetic line up, greens and teals for more nature-esk colour schemes.
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@FrankTheTank said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4022575#Comment_4022575
This is just my opinion, but when you tell people that certain arguments about why Legion is bad in 2v8 aren’t “good faith arguments”, as the OP did, you’re basically just saying that you’re not going to consider certain points of view because you don’t like them. That kind of attitude is downvote-worthy, IMO.
Also, it’s currently at 4 upvotes and 6 downvotes, not exactly being “mass downvoted”…
The basis of the thread is how can Legion be brought back into 2v8 after their removal, with the agreed terms of the discussion being that Legion should not be excluded from the mode. There are plenty of people who voice that Legion should be removed from 2v8 and never brought back, refusing to entertain any discussion to the contrary.
To "argue in good faith" means to engage in a discussion with a genuine desire to understand others' perspectives, find common ground, and use honest logic and evidence, even if you disagree... suffice to say, the perspective Legion should be removed completely and not being willing to offer any compromise is indeed not arguing in good faith, and this thread would easily switch to a discussion about why Legion be just allowed in the mode, isbetad of a discussion of how they could be incorporated.
I don't see anything wrong with pointing out, getting ahead of those common arguments and points, and requesting argumentation that avoids this talking point, as it would otherwise derail and distract from the threads purpose the OP wants to discuss.
And to add some additional context, I do believe downvotes are a blight on these forums, and never use them myself. Down votes discourage discussion , and there are plenty of people don't talk or debate, they just ratio opinions they don't like. Even a complex and multi layered opinion can be broken down to a simple "nah" with this system... and when I posted to this thread the ratio was 6 to 1. 6 to 2 after I added my own vote.
As the saying goes, a person is smart, people are dumb panicky idiots who get swept along with the crowd. The meaning being, you can have a intelligent discussion with a person, but you can't with a mob, and downvotes allow people to be easily mobbed.
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Man literally asks for suggestions/ideas and starts getting mass downvoted... these forums are really starting to suck. Getting real tired of the undercover popularity contests going on around here.
Kudos to the guys above who actually took the time to write an actual response.
In terms of a suggestion, my suggestion for 2v8 Legion is: -
- Give him his 4 hits and 5th hit down as he has in normal mode.
- Remove killer instinct from him, but give him back scratch marks and blood splats.
- Give him Frank's Mix Tape basekit so he can kick gens for auras.
This would mean survivors can actually pay attention and hide from Legion, make it so scoring all 4 hits is something Legion actually earned. It also plays into the natural greater aura abilities of 2v8.
Because now none of their chains are free, you could even look at giving some combination of his add-ons as needed to make him a little better (like in the league of the Nurse, Wesker, Wraith, changes) : -
- Mischief List (1 second longer duration)
- Mural Sketch (0.08-0.32m/s additional speed for each hit)
- Scratched Ruler (5s faster revovery)
- Stab Wounds Study (4s aura after mend cure)
- Fuming Mix Tape gen aura effect (gen auras coloured based on progress)
- Iridescent Pin (Vaulting pallet breaks them)
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This makes no sense… isn't the point of Abandon to basically skip waiting out the loss of the game and go next? Surely to abandon is to forfeit the game and should be an auto loss?
As someone who doesn't really use abandon, because I ain't no wimp (j/k 😏), this is just bewildering 😶
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@Atsuka_Anarchy said:
It’s cold in here. I feel like this Ultimate guide was just left on read. 🐷 Gotta get this out there for the piguninon.
Pig deserves better... apparantly we're not even allowed to have our RBT in the lobby no more, as it missing has been deemed "not a bug"... 😭😭😭
@radiantHero23 said:
I think I have said this somewhere before, but Pig is still missing her beartrap in the lobby.
She has her hand like she is holding it but it just isnt there. This has now been this way for months and I really hope that it gets fixed soon. I know with all the stuff breaking right now, this might seem like a small problem, but I feel like if nobody mentiones problems, they never gonna get fixed.
Maybe this is linked to the new home screen animation the Pig recieved some months ago.
If the beartrap is supposed to be gone for good, then thats sad, because its super iconic. If you dont want to return it, at least make her hand look different.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/9LB8TBECNH4X/20240220183451-1.jpg
This picture is from a previous PTB, but if one just starts their game and takes a look at Piggy right now, its still missing.
;🐽;
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@fussy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4021713#Comment_4021713
Idk, I never considered him "high mobility", because he obviously never was. Even on release there were a lot of killer with better mobility: Wraith, Billy, kinda Freddy, Clown, Spirit, Demo, Blight, Twins (at least in terms of map pressure/control, collecting info), Onryo and Dredge. Even oldest killer like Wraith has x10 times better mobility than Wesker. It's not like he has it back in the days and now lost mobility aspect, I think it's more people have trapped themselves into thinking that dashes = mobility.
(Btw +rep for gif, I just ended collect all achievements in Lego The Incredibles 👉️👈️)I mean fair enough, I mostly think in regards to what mobility meant back in the day. A lot of killers that you would consider more mobile have conditions, such as:
- Spirit - long cooldowns and add-on reliant.
- Nurse - add-on reliant (now removed).
- Demogorgon - initial setup and counterable.
- Billy - overheat issues.
- Freddy - restricted targets and much longer base CD than now.
- Dredge - map reliant and lacking the chase potential to really push his mobility.
- Oni - blood reliant and time limited.
- Clown - I'd say roughly on par in terms of the speed, but I'd say Wesker was better when you factor in Clown old bottle reload speed and Wesker doesn't have to worry aboit resources on the other side.
Granted Wraith, Blight and Twins categorically outclassed his mobility... and Blight is completely in a league of his own, but other killers who were more mobile than him often lacked his chase potency or needed add-ons for the privilege.
Wesker always struck me a decently mobile killer. Not the gold standard by any means, but not a slouch in the mobility department.
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
I'd love if she/Myers/Freddy etc got a visual update in general, then we could maybe get a cooler mori too
New themes too plz.
In fact, I'll just plug this thread while we're at it.
@UndeddJester said:
Fellow forum affectionados… I need your help in raising awareness for the good of all Pig kind! Please take time out of your day to upvote and comment on this issue…
Amanda is great, her fanbase is very loyal… and we are happy to call ourselves Pig mains no matter what… but there are some undeniable shortcomings with the SAW license in DBD… things that really need to change for the better!
Hello Zepp theme worked into all Pig audio
The standard DBD theme, chase and terror music is a cool jam, but SAW has very iconic music that would be amazing to see in DBD. This fan made version is incredible, and something that any Pig main would adore:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUJ3uT-MsoE
There is so much potential for a truly kick ass theme to be woven throughout all interactions with the Pig, that would make any SAW/Pig Main wilt…
Shawnee Smith to VA lines
The sounds of the Pig are great, the roar, the squeal when she gets tagged by pallets, we love these things dearly... however some voice lines for the Pig would be really cool, particularly Shawnee's iconic "Game Over" when a survivor dies of a head pop would be excellent.
We wouldn't need to many lines, Pig doesn't come across as overly chatty, but just odd lines now and again would be very welcome 😉
Shawnee herself has expressed interest and willingness to provide her voice, and with her recent re-addition to the SAW films, it's something we'd all love to see!
Unique Animations
Amanda is canonically 5 ft 3 in (160cm) and 107lbs (48.5 Kg). This has key plot implications in the films because although we know Amanda is Jigsaw's Apprentice, it doesn't make sense for someone as small as Amanda to be able to put full grown, unconscious dead weight men (or women bigger than her) into Jigsaw's various contraptions. We see her struggling to move people at various points, and this is what introduces Hoffman as the second Apprentice to Jigsaw to continue his work after SAW 3.
It would be great to have this detail honoured in DBD and give Amanda unique pick up and carry Animations that would have her drag survivors and hook them using a mechanism rather than just carrying them with 1 arm. The animation timings and transitions I would propose would be something like:
- Pickup 1: Stand to right of survivor and bend down, grab waist with left hand and lift survivor to waist height. - Instead Amanda will use her left hand to grab the waist and right to grab their left shoulder. She will pull towards her and roll them to onto their butt (sitting up). As she does this her face shifts from looking down at the survivor to looking forward.
- Pickup 2: Throw left hand under and catch survivor, lift survivor up on shoulder - As the survivor sits up from being rolled over, transition her left hand to grab the survivors left shoulder, and have Amanda step to the survivor to brace herself. Amanda is already facing forward and thus is subject to being blinded as normal.
- Stuns: Being blinded, pallet/decisive strike/head on stunned - the Pig let's go and is stunned as normal, the survivor rolls quickly to their feet, arriving in the same place and timeframe as they are usually when dropped of the shoulder.
- Carry: Moving with the survivor on shoulder - the Survivor is kept close to Amanda's left leg, and she walks with an action similar to Hillbillies limp to sell that she is dragging the survivor. Her right hand is free to attack as normal.
- Hook: Throwing survivor off shoulder onto the hook, Survivor writhes on the hook in pain before starting the summoning/sacrifice animations - The hooks for Amanda are on a chain and the survivor is instead pushed toward the hook as Amanda grabs the hook with her right hand, pulls it down quickly to jam the hook in their shoulder. The writhing animation is played out as the survivor is dragged via a ratchet up onto the hook.
Head/Neck/Mask Model Cleanup
I first want to say, I adore Pig, and she looks awesome in pretty much all her skins… however the model for Pig is a little dated, and shows some clear signs of early shortcuts back from the games infancy. A lot of the masks don't fit very well with other cosmetics, and the reason for this is her models are built is a way to conceal the jankiness of her model. Each individual cosmetic set looks great, but when you start mixing and matching them, the covers ups become clearer.
When you compare the masks to each other from the front, the relative size and dimensions of each mask is quite jarringly different (though mostly they still look good):
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/QF7A95X5VYJ0/front-second-chance-heads.gif
However from the side the issue is a little more clear. You can see Amanda's neck is literally horizontal and kinda long/unnatural looking. With the correct Amanda's Rebirth skinset, it's hard to notice cause of the cloak. The base skin is still decent cause its got a hood but if you take the Rebirth and Second Chance combo… it's pretty blatant and hard to ignore (which is a shame cause from the front, this combo looks pretty awesome as shown above).
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/FUICG9C4T3W4/pig-neck.png
The other skins tend to cover this up with jackets and/or hair, but her stooped and overly long neck is a problem hidden through all her skins. It would be nice to get her model cleaned up a little so that all the skin combos can fit together nicely… especially her base skin head… that thing is HOOGE!
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/O7T93PEO8C99/pig-mask-side.gif
Hand Model Cleanup
I have a feeling Pig's hand model is the byproduct of short-cutting a model elsewhere. I would guess Huntress offhand… The thing is her hands are fine for a man, or a large muscular woman… however Amanda is quite petite, and it looks really odd to see these large man like hands/sausages on the ends of my little Piggy arms…
If you compare her to Rin, Sadako, and Adriana, all characters that are similar size to Amanda (check it in the menu), her hands are HUGE! They looks fine as hands.. but they aren't a small woman's hands, and more modern characters have been done a lot better in this department… It'd be really nice to see Mandy's hands get redone properly and fit her correctly.
I realise these are fists a lot of the time, but even on her unclenched hands, her palms are so wide!
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/71SO7LZG1FQG/hand-comparison.png
Working BOOP counter charm
A point animation performed by a survivor within 4m of the Pig is tallied on counter and displayed on a charm. The counter could look similar to the time on her Jigsaw boxes. Trust me:
Pig mains while continuing to not having these things:
To conclude, all of these things would be amazing to see on Amanda. I know she is a long in the tooth character for DBD now, and probably not pulling in the big revenue on new characters anymore…. but I, and any other pig main would be so happy to see to these changes come in and really bring Amanda to life…
She is such a cool character already, and this would just make her perfect…. no matter if you nerfed to the floor (plz don't)… I'd still play her ^🐽^
Without them, we can't help but look on and think:
https://images6.fanpop.com/image/photos/43400000/Amanda-Young-saw-43419389-500-281.gif
"It's all bullshit. It's all a ######### lie. And I'm just a pawn in your stupid games..."
Justice for Pig!!!
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Correction: BHVR doesn't like m1 killers.
A and S tier killers are going fine, they smash people all day long... but Survivors keep getting stronger and stronger, while killer perks keep getting nerfed harder and harder... so if your power isn't oppressively strong then you get left behind.
I mean look at Springtrap and Unknown? Killers that can't spam their power on repeat, with very real consequences if they miss? Now considered trash, despite being stronger than over half the roster. Even Wesker is looked at as being a bit meh by a lot of people, and he is still among the best in the game.
The killer standard for powers now is highly spammable, barely any slowdown, little counterplay available. Any killer that has counterplay, or needs m1 gameplay as part of their skillset? Trash tier.
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@fussy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4021481#Comment_4021481
Always funny to see Wesker and high mobility in one sentence. Jump on 21 meter and then lose another 3-4 meters due to cooldowns is barely mobility at all, entity forbid "high" mobility. Literally every second killer has better mobility than Wesker.
I think its quite telling how at one point in time he was considered highly mobile killer because the number of killers that could do what he does was not a high number at all.
But nowadays... well… to put it another way...
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It feels like a negative feedback loop to me.
- Killers have obnoxiously overpowered killer powers in the roster that, when combined with perks, makes the killer ridiculous, so killer perks have to be nerfed constantly around this fact.
- Survivors in soloQ get smoked constantly because Survivors have obnoxiously overpowered SWF strats to make perks ridiculous, so survivor perks have to be restrained constantly around this fact.
- Because SoloQ gets merced at every turn, survivors keep getting more effects basekit and the odd yolo buffs to older perks that then become abusable by SWF.
- Lower tier killers become ever more increasingly difficult to play, so everyone switches to killers with obnoxiously strong powers and continues to stomp soloQ games, the cycle repeats.
No one is willing to take a nerf or any restrictions for SWF, because "that's punishing you for playing with friends"; because apparently the obvious problem of coordinated SWFs spamming powerful perks is not an issue enough to be worth using your brain for 20s to come up with an alternative combo before you ready up.
Similarly, no one is willing to nerf the strongest killers in the game in a meaningful way, because if you aren't at least as strong as Ghoul, the community largely deems you as trash and not worth playing... which to be fair is quite true, as m1 gameplay gets punished more and more by the ever increasing threats for all aspects of the game, to the point the only way to keep up is to have an obnoxious power.... set to be even more an issue following the incoming anti killer update.
So basically, perks have to suck because killer powers have to sit in the Singularity kind of tier to not get run over by strong survivors teams and builds... which makes any non A tier killer a ballache to play, so people only play A tier killers, and thus killer perks "overperform" and get nerfed.
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Interesting. Just cause I'm curious...
I'm gonna assume 4 games per killer (based on your listing for Pig), which equates to about 180ish games of killer?
Did you have a specific build you ran for each killer? Or were you using an equivalent/near equivalent build for each killer?
How many games as Survivor? The same?
What was your Survivor build?
Also which region? US I assume?
I assume you have this all in a spreadsheet? How long have you been running this experiment?
Also 52% escape rate in Survivor, well played man, that is pretty darned good. 🤘
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As a Kate main... fair enough...
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@Boingo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4018947#Comment_4018947
Pig would have like double her traps and boxes wouldn't she? 8 traps and 10 boxes I think? And probably some buffs to sneak and ambush too.
I feel like Pig is an interesting case for 2v8 synergy. I'm not sure if her 4 traps as is would be overpowered in a 2v8 setting or not.
If I were to have a gut punt at a buff list for 2v8:
- John's Medical File (+5% crouch movement speed)
- Combat Straps (+0.1s faster crouch/uncrouch speed)
- Workshop Grease (50% faster ambush charge rate)
- Ruleset Number 2 (cannot see boxes until traps are active)
- +2 traps.
That seems like it might be decent... maybe Last Will as well.
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@Nun_So_Vile said:
We could make this stream into a drinking game
1 shot when they use the word "soon"
2 shots for "I can't share that information"
3 shots for "we're monitoring the situation and/or player feedback"
4 shots for "It's on our backlog"
Chug a (root) beer if they announce the anti-tunnel & anti-slug they are working on
Jager bomb if new license teaser trailer
Drink an entire fifth if Pig gets nerfed
Pour some whiskey on rocks and sip throughout the entire conversation of how high MMR was the reason behind a specific nerf to unpopular killer
Any more?
3 shots for we're monitoring the situation?
Good lord... might need the shot of washing up liquid on standby for when it goes too far.… 😶😶😶😶
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I do have a fundamental issue with the notion "Legion can't work and should be removed from 2v8". This gates everything that isn't chase out of the mode because soloQ can't handle it, not cause there is something inherently wrong with tbe power.
My personal opinion is neither Legion or Oni needed buffs, their powers naturally synergise with 2v8, and leaving them as is would have been fine.
If Legion does need some extra thought, and if you really need to hard nerf Legion in 2v8, have their power only last 4 hits, but the 5th hit only deep wounds and causes Legion to drop power immediately. Perhaps have it so on the 5th hit the Survivor doesn't get the post hit speed boost. This is a strong arm to severely hurting Legion's power and oppressiveness in 2vs8, but even this would be far more preferable than removing the character completely.
We have some really smart people in these forums... to just give up and say "remove Legion", I can only describe as cowardly.
Legion's fundamental issue has always been Survivors need to play the Legion game, and if they don't they lose... and SoloQ has too many people who can't or won't figure out how to play against him, and thus give him everything he wants to win... and this problem is amplified further in 2v8.
I have had games I've beaten a Legion in 2v8 when I've had a number of players who are clued in, and I've had games where I can see Survivors playing obviously incorrectly get smashed by Legion. The same counters apply, but you need Survivors who will actually use them.
If all 2v8 Survivors did the following for Legion, they'd do a lot better:
- Avoid clumping and spread out, never have more than 2 Survivors in close proximity.
- When Legion starts chaining head to edges of the map and make it more difficult to chain.
- Body block for your teammates if you have deep wound.
- Stay in Deep Wound as long as possible before you complete the mend.
- Leave healing for the Medics and make strong use of their active cooldowns.
- Play for stuns and wearing out Legion's timer.
- Use things like window techs.
- If all else fails and you really need to stop a Legion chain, jump in a locker so he has to drop out of power.
Survivors have options vs. Legion, and to say this shouldn't exist in the same arena where we have triple blink Nurse/triple dash Wesker, and Wraith with 4 of his add-ons basekit to make pretty much all Wraith counterplay non existent... is just close minded bias to me.
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@Elan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4018682#Comment_4018682
The problem with Pig dash is different though. It got buffed twice but resulted in about 1m more ground covered. The biggest problem is the slow setup to perform it. She has to crouch -0.8s, charge -0.8s, loses los and completely stops moving while charging. So in the end she loses both los and strategic distance to her setup for counterplay of leaving loop that she can't counter because she can't see where survivors are and if they abandoned the loop (unless you run Amanda's letter, which is currently only truly viable add on to boost Ambush strenght).
Also survivors can predrop the pallet to make Ambush unsusable, which will be case if they buff her Ambush to the point where it'd be reliable antiloop.
Yes, Pigs individual components are weak. No one aspect of her kit is strong, you have to use all parts of her kit together to get success. Pig is a little like Oni, where they struggle mightily if they don't get an injury/down early, but once the first trap is out, that's when the game really begins.
Pig's entire uniqueness is the fact she has an additional threat to play around for Survivors, and you have to lean on that threat, or at least bait that threat to create effective pressure. Your game plan is ever changing based on the situation and information you gather in the trial, and a good Pig will be constantly on the look out for particular macro elements to squeeze on.
This additional dimension of Pig must be mitigated by a weaker chase compared to other killers. If she has strong anti loop, you cannot justify the existence of RBTs, there has to he a trade off.
The pre drop and run problem is an issue for Pig, but it is something that can be mitigated using perks like Blood Favour, Bam or Brutal Strength+Knockout, Pig has multiple perks she can afford to take instead of gen slowdown to help her chase, because she has gen slowdown inherently. And vs. any survivor trying to greed, they can be mind gamed with her Ambush, or a quick/crouch stand, there are a loot of little tricka you can employ to mind game in a variety of ways with Pig.
I am thinking about Pig in a world without the pallet density update admittedly, as this undeniably hurts her a lot, but the overarching point is, this is new Myers:
I love QuietKills, but this is not Myers, this is brain off dash slop, brute forcing hits at every tile. You'll notice he's using similar perks to what I suggest on Pig, but the difference here is Pig would still have to play mind games for hits, she can't force hits in many scenarios, she has to understand her power well to know when to use it and when to fake it and go for M1s instead.
Due to the nature of her RBTs this is how it has to be, because if she can just force hits on repeat, like Dash Slop can, then her natural slowdown breaks the game.
And I for one hold the opinion the Dash Slop crowd already have enough to pick from. They don't need to dumb down every killer in the game to fit their archetype.
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IMO, her dash is OK as it is; it's strong in the right scenarios, yet weak enough to still give meaningful counterplay/mind games (something sorely lacking in a lot of dash based killers where they can brute force hits)
Learning when you can and can't use it is a big part of playing Pig, and a major skill component to her is learning to use all elements of her kit together, not hyper focus on one aspect.
If Pig were to receive any further buffs... I'd prefer something other than her dash…. Like ruleset number 2 basekit.
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Statistics can be used to prove whatever you want, depending on what data you choose to ignore.
For example:
- 4 man SWF in high MMR has an escape rate of 48.2%.
- Average kill rate in high MMR for Nurse and Blight in 67% and 69% respectively.
- Given S tier killers are the most frequently played at high MMR and have su h a high killrate, doesn't this imply that non S tier killers get utterly eviscerated by 4 man SWFs?
Sounds right, and hey look at that, I have a stats based argument to say all non S tier killers should be buffed. Yay for me.
However, in reality, no you shouldn't buy into that narrative, because these stats are nowhere near enough to paint the full picture. We have very little real data to really draw any conclusions. This numbers prove very little about what is actually going on in DBD.
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@Colt45m said:
How would it not help with comms? Just tell them to do gens. If they made comms of course there would be a report system and ban system for bad behavior. Also an ignore feature. This is why call of duty and rainbow six is so popular. It would make dbd way more popular and enjoyable.
My experience with comms across my entire online gaming life finds it hard to read "Just tell them to do gens", and not laugh at the reality of how that will actually go.
I do often wonder if anyone advocating for comms in DBD has ever actually had comms in online gaming before... because I find it hard to believe anyone would willingly ask for it xD
Gamers (and humans in general) are grade A jerks 90% of the time behind the anonymity of the Internet. I use the word "jerk" to avoid saying anything bannable... but take "jerk" up about 10'000 notches and you'll reach what I actually mean.
I think adding voice comms is a waste of time, and I would demand an auto mute option in my game settings if it ever became a thing. The greatest bliss of console DBD is not having to hear/read anything from anyone in this bloody game...
Preset text messages might be fine though.
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Where have all the good perks gone...
For when the killer slugs?
The only once able Unbreakable
Doesn’t help against SoloQ flubbs...
Isn't there a perk to save a slug for when a fast killer greeds?
Lying bleeding, I toss and I turn,
And I dream of what I need...
Tenacity-oooooh!
We're holding out for a revert in the patch notes alright!
It's not even that strong, a nerf so very wrong, and this perk needs to be brought back to life!
Tenacity-oooooh!
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It's an interesting set of changes, however I think a lot of the problem with Wraith, and it's amplified significantlt by majority of what you've gone with here, is he is already the King of hit and run, and can be very oppressive for lower and mid skilled players.
The point where you lose me is on regards to The Hound and Blink, The Ghost and the Coxcombed Clapper. Having options to be completely invisible while having a delayed bell (or even worse silent bell and no breathing sounds), or options to be invisible after silently uncloaking with the Clapper… both sound incredibly unfair... you literally have no warning at all, nothing to give you a chance to play against him.
Without very good comms... soloQ doesn't really have much they can do about a Wraith other than pre-running to tiles until you see him in chase, and even that doesn't work, cause Wraith often ends chase by cloaking frequently, so you aren't sure if he's coming.
The one thing that really helps against Wraith is Sprint Burst or to a lesser extent Dead Hard, so you can't as easily get caught with your pants down against him... but without them, often in SoloQ, against a Wraith going full bore and picking on the fact you don't have SB... you can't touch a generator, or you just die, even if you get very good at his counterplay... however some of these combos make it so, not even Sprint Burst will help you. 😱
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4015618#Comment_4015618
Ok, let’s discuss what actually is happening here. There was a massive massive amount of negative feedback about the PTB, and BHVR reacted to that feedback.
And now we have a group of people that want all of that feedback to be ignored, and want PTB feedback to be declared as invalid for major balance decisions.
The actual compromise is for major changes to be tested in PTBs that are completely separate from patch releases. And BHVR would very clearly tell us these PTBs are only for feedback gathering, and there is zero guarantee that anything on these PTBs will ever reach live.
Having major changes on PTBs, that are connected to patch releases, is an issue for both sides of the game. Because one side will be in a panic to try to get the changes cancelled before they reach live, and that other side will be entitled and feel like the changes should happen just because they existed on a PTB.
I gotta admit, I don't think anyone would disagree with having more experimental and feedback gathering PTBs not tied to a release.
Could even have much more iterative and fast turn over changes since there isn't a "deadline" for such things, so BHVR could make quick rapid tweaks and changes in response to feedback to try and hit a sweet spot.
Basucally the playerbase become test pilots for the game. That sound like a very healthy and useful solution...
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I still have only played the Walking Dead map a total of 2 times since it's release... one of those was Killer xD
Not that it's a good map mind you... but I have 100% trophies outside of this and Krasue (because I refuse to play this killer until they aren't silly anymore)...
But aye, the point is, I don't mind being patient... but 2!? It doesn't even have a reliable offering XD
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On the plus side...
Pumpkin Skully
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I don't agree if you DC, but I do feel if you are SoloQ or everyone in your SWF is dead, then the killers build should be revealed.
Most players keep their profiles private across all platforms, so the concern of players trying to warn others of killer perks is not gonna be exactly 0, but is pretty much gonna be next to 0.
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@Alicia_Tried6041 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4015609#Comment_4015609
There are many people who will disagree with you. Blight isn't even S tier anymore btw. The newer killers are better than he is.
Wrong.
The newer killers are stronger respective to the skill required to play them, you can be an absolute putz on modern killers and get away with it against all but the best Survivors, but their maximum potential is not as high as Blight. Even Hillbilly is better than the newer killers as well, but Billy takes actual skill to play to reach his potential, and is afforded very little margin for error, so very few people play him because other killers are simply easier to get nearly comparable levels of strength.
Either way, saying Survivors need more pallets to defend against A+ and S tier killers, while also holding the belief that other killers are worthwhile sacrifices instead of nerfing A+ and S tier killers, is a ridiculously biased take… made worse by the fact that the greater number of pallets don't even really nerf the A+ and S tier killers, since the vast majority of them can hit over or get hits around pallets relatively effortlessly anyway… that is what makes the A+ and S tier in the first place.
So what you're really arguing for is slapping the B tier killers and below who actually are affected hard by pallets further into the dirt because any none top tier Killer should be a performing monkey, there purely for survivor teams amusement.
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@vol4r said:
I forgot to put a build in an event mode - still i did the 8 hook before the kill. Surviviors completed 2 gens.
I also didn't play spirit for more than a year - it was my 3rd game after a break from the killer.
I will never be on a side that says the game is surviovor sided.
Occasionally I play killers that I don't have as high MMR in, like Knight or Nemesis, and absolutely wreck face with a quirky off meta build.... Survivors make embarrassingly bad mistakes that let's me win effortlessly.
Killers I play more often, usually Pig, Trapper, or Bubba, I tend to get tougher matches, that go to the wire, where I can quite often win, but Survivors are snapping at my heals... but every now and again, I get an absolutely insane set of Survivors who run circles around me, never fall for a single mind game, make every save, and squeeze every tile for everything it's worth before chaining to nee tiles and doing the same, and at end game swanning out the gate with me barely scoring 3 or 4 hooks.
Anyone saying the game is Killer sided on a A+ tier killer against casual lobbies is a very obvious "no duh"... but playing anything B tier or below and claiming the same is a flat out lie. Yes you'll beat scrubs, but genuinely good players will humble you pretty fast.
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I've actually seen killer BP bonuses in the wild for the first time since Kameki dropped 😶😶😶
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@TicTac said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4014413#Comment_4014413
Billy has a lot of stuff over Bubba, but the main thing is that he can outplay pallets with curving. If a Billy just uses his saw to destroy pallets and to catch up, he will lose.
Well quite, I was more making a direct comparison of the 2 where Billy still comes out on top, but yes this bolsters the point even more 😅
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@ImWinston said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4014401#Comment_4014401
- Believe me, I wanted to specify this specifically for Bubba. "Eats pallets" doesn't necessarily mean he's a strong killer... but his power definitely allows him to take out pallets quickly (compared to other killers).
I think this simplifies each killers identity too much, and doesn't adequately describe what killers are affected by the pallet density update more or less than others.
Bubba absolutely suffers with a lot of pallets because he lacks a means of effectively catching up. With a lot of pallets in the area it extends his chase time considerably because Survivors are afforded the ability to chain pallets continuously and keep him eating pallets instead of using his chainsaw for a down. This is different to Hillbilly, because Hillbilly has no cooldown and is fast enough that he can far more often cut Survivors off before they reach more pallets, so the pallets are much less of an issue for Billy.
Similarly Pig doesn't really have a tool to manage pallets and certainly not in the same line as Kaneki or Krasue, because Survivors can just throw pallets and hold W to stop Pig in her tracks and completely deny her from even trying to use her ambush, and thus she is horribly impacted by greater pallet density… while Kaneki an Krasue have the mobility to severely punish a survivor who tries to do this, by stopping them from leaving the pallet and forcing them to play it, while also having tools to be far more potent than Pig at that pallet to boot… and thus are far less affected by pallets than Pig is.
That's just 2 examples, but there are quite a few killers who don't fit in the category they have been placed, because while in theory they might have pallet handling in their power, it actually plays out very differently in practice.
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@OnryosTapeRentals said:
Yeah… Orela's voice lines are a miss for me. I think it's a combination of awkward delivery and bad writing. The writing is definitely the worse of the two though, because I don't think even the best VA in the world could make "Let's hit those Generators" sound good.
I think that's more the issue, a lot of the voice lines don't feel natural to say at base; I think part of the problem is they wanted Orela as a trained paramedic used to difficult situations to be tough, confident and calm, and as such she has lines that are very "lets do this" in nature... however because of that it creates a bit of a tonal contradiction and makes her quite unrelatable... she doesn't really sound at any point like she's in the high stress situation she is. She has some okay and decent lines, but others land flat.
Other characters like Nicholas Cage or Lara, they get startled by things, they they make anecdotal comments about how they feel the same way Orela does, but they all make sense in the moment, amd come with an appropriate level of self concern...
Some of Orela's lines are quite good, but others... just don't make sense to say, are a pointless/unnatural to say out loud to yourself or others, or can even come across as patronising... and it's almost like she can't be shown to be vulnerable at all, which kinda makes her not feel like a person...
Lines like:
- "St... Stupid Hook...". Comes across weird to say after having been impaled through the shoulder... why such a benign line? "Th… that hook...", as if she's showing concern, would help sell this scenario a lot better.
- "Let's hit those generators" and "Let's avoid those hooks and hit those generators". Lacks any real personality/identity, it's just stating the games objectives and pointing out the obvious. Something like "Those hooks are disgusting... how can anyone do this?" would make more sense... as a Doctor she'd be thinking about infection and the opposite of her life mission.
- "Let's try not to lose any blood". Could be any okay line as a tongue in cheek post heal comment, "more blood" might make it work... but as is it feels kinda patronising. "Hey... Stay calm, and do try to keep all your blood on the inside... OK?", would ooze so much more character... shows a little worry/vulnerability, but still putting on a brave act with some light humour.
- "If you wanna live, stick with me". Sounds strange for a paramedic to say, its kinda combative, whereas a medic is well verses in talking to people in a manner where they cooperate with you. Furthermore, she understands the potential injuries and dangers posed by the trial better than anyone, why is she so confident? It almost comes across as arrogant.... If anything she'd be more concerned than anyone else about the stakes of the trial, and trying to reassure, instead of direct people... surely? "Don't worry, I promise we're all gonna make it outta here" would fit her so much more.
- "I guess I'm off the hook" A pun... after you've just had a hook torn out of your shoulder? Not inherently bad, but you've gotta at least maintain the illusion she's in pain... adding a "Ahh... " at the start, then a small groan at the end would do so much more.
It's little touches like that, that would make her a lot more human... she isn't a Terminator, keeping calm is one thing, but a brave face doesn't mean anything if I don't believe she is actually scared and in pain.
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@KatsuhxP said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/458389/fog-vials-need-a-buff
I don't remember how many charges they have, but I believe 1-2? They should cap it to 3 charges and then revert the rest to before the nerf, they could also increase the intensity by a few percent (not sure how sensitive that is, so probably rather less than more) honestly - it was already possible to follow people perfectly anyways xD
The only really problem they had was the amount of uses, the fog itself was not even strong in any way.
This seems plenty fair to my eye.
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@PetTheDoggo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4012375#Comment_4012375
Funny is even prenuked version seems pathetic weak in chase compare to what we got lately…
It'd be hilarious if all of the nutso S tier killer drops lately were all an elaborate long haul plan to make everyone forget about Skully for her return xD
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I feel like the halving of OTR does make sense to some degree with the logic being it can be used to body block... in a bubble halving it's effect to 40s makes sense...
However in the same breathe I feel like OTR could have kept it's original 80s duration if the no clipping change from the PTB was brought in, which feels like the correct and full solution... since y'know it actually solves the problem, and doesn't nerf the normal use of the perk as a side effect... 🤔
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4012669#Comment_4012669
What I would have expected given the, to me, obvious issues with these changes as highlighted above, is we as a community would keeps the bits that were sensible (like elusive),Part of the problem when discussing this is that there are two discussions that happen (three, if we involve BHVR):
1: What is the goal?
2: What is the best way to implement that?
(number 3 would be how hard would it be to implement, which only BHVR knows for sure).
An example of number 1 is stealth. Some people want a lot of stealth, some want little to none and instead a chase focused game. Neither desire is right or wrong, they are just different games.
That's kind of where we are with anti-tunnel. Make it impossible (relatively easy to brute force in)? Make it harder (relatively easy again, just more basekit off of hook)? Make it a possibility, but less attractive (hard and seemingly what BHVR was trying to do)? If players disagree on that getting to the implementation question is going to mean they are talking past each other.
None of those are right or wrong, they're just different directions the game could go.
As already said by others in this thread, buffing lower tier killers isn't really possible, because they become oppressive at lower levels.Ture, though I'll also add on three points
1: Balance is not the be all, end all, though it is really important. Imagine a killer was fun and enjoyable for 95% of the playerbase, but kind of broke down for the remaining 5%. Now more specifics would be needed to give a true answer, but I think overall that would be an okay position.
I kind of feel like this with Ghost Face. He's got a unique power, is fun, and provides a good atmosphere for the majority of players. Does he suffer against SWFs? Absolutely. Would it be worth risking his unique feel to balance him out in those other scenarios? Not to me, though its a subjective call.
2: BHVR's 60% KR doesn't add a lot of wiggle room on the overpowered side. If they get up to 70% at low MMR well, especially when Hatch is factored in, they're winning the vast majority of their games and won't be in low MMR for very long, potentially matching them against players they aren't ready for.
3: Hypothetically, they could address this by giving lower MMR monsters stronger high level addons than they do other killers. Now I hate the way addons work on both sides with a fiery passion, but BHVR could just make the statement - 'If you are playing the following killers, we expect you will need to run the highest level addons to remain competitive at high MMR'. It would be far from perfect, but would generally address the issues.
I'm still not tunneling and not slugging, but it just keeps getting harder and harder to even get my RBT pressure going...This is where I think BHVR really messed up with their messaging.
One of the benefits of the anti-tunnel they proposed is eliminating the idea of a 'rulebook'. Want to get a survivor out early (either as a strategy or an opportunity)? Sure, here's the cost you pay. There's no need to say 'I try to spread out hooks to be more fair', because both possibilities are still a fair game each with their own pros and cons.
but conversations never made it this far, as slamming m1 killers in the dirt was seen as completely fine...I think we needed a lot more testing to see how it actually shook out. Worrying that mechanics or perks are going to break the game in a way that never comes to fruition is a classic forum past time. I wish BHVR had been more informative about what specifically they didn't think was working, or if it was truly just a game feel issue, but keeping players in the dark is BHVR's own hobby.
And just to give a TLDR version to this (very engaging and interesting) debate:
With the tunnel changes as proposed, my biggest worry with this whole thing... it's all well and good saying bring it to live, reimagine the game and nerf tunneling and slugging first, worry about low tier killers later...
However it's not a question of if you will buff the weaker killers or not... but more a concern or what do buffs to these weaker killers look like in this new world these changes are proposing?
Because if Myers is anything to go by, I think having a whole stack of reservations and concerns is absolutely completely valid... as I said before "trust me bro, we'll fix em later" looks very scary to me with these changes on the table. 😬
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4012669#Comment_4012669
What I would have expected given the, to me, obvious issues with these changes as highlighted above, is we as a community would keeps the bits that were sensible (like elusive),Part of the problem when discussing this is that there are two discussions that happen (three, if we involve BHVR):
1: What is the goal?
2: What is the best way to implement that?
(number 3 would be how hard would it be to implement, which only BHVR knows for sure).
An example of number 1 is stealth. Some people want a lot of stealth, some want little to none and instead a chase focused game. Neither desire is right or wrong, they are just different games.
That's kind of where we are with anti-tunnel. Make it impossible (relatively easy to brute force in)? Make it harder (relatively easy again, just more basekit off of hook)? Make it a possibility, but less attractive (hard and seemingly what BHVR was trying to do)? If players disagree on that getting to the implementation question is going to mean they are talking past each other.
None of those are right or wrong, they're just different directions the game could go.
As already said by others in this thread, buffing lower tier killers isn't really possible, because they become oppressive at lower levels.Ture, though I'll also add on three points
1: Balance is not the be all, end all, though it is really important. Imagine a killer was fun and enjoyable for 95% of the playerbase, but kind of broke down for the remaining 5%. Now more specifics would be needed to give a true answer, but I think overall that would be an okay position.
I kind of feel like this with Ghost Face. He's got a unique power, is fun, and provides a good atmosphere for the majority of players. Does he suffer against SWFs? Absolutely. Would it be worth risking his unique feel to balance him out in those other scenarios? Not to me, though its a subjective call.
2: BHVR's 60% KR doesn't add a lot of wiggle room on the overpowered side. If they get up to 70% at low MMR well, especially when Hatch is factored in, they're winning the vast majority of their games and won't be in low MMR for very long, potentially matching them against players they aren't ready for.
3: Hypothetically, they could address this by giving lower MMR monsters stronger high level addons than they do other killers. Now I hate the way addons work on both sides with a fiery passion, but BHVR could just make the statement - 'If you are playing the following killers, we expect you will need to run the highest level addons to remain competitive at high MMR'. It would be far from perfect, but would generally address the issues.
I'm still not tunneling and not slugging, but it just keeps getting harder and harder to even get my RBT pressure going...This is where I think BHVR really messed up with their messaging.
One of the benefits of the anti-tunnel they proposed is eliminating the idea of a 'rulebook'. Want to get a survivor out early (either as a strategy or an opportunity)? Sure, here's the cost you pay. There's no need to say 'I try to spread out hooks to be more fair', because both possibilities are still a fair game each with their own pros and cons.
but conversations never made it this far, as slamming m1 killers in the dirt was seen as completely fine...I think we needed a lot more testing to see how it actually shook out. Worrying that mechanics or perks are going to break the game in a way that never comes to fruition is a classic forum past time. I wish BHVR had been more informative about what specifically they didn't think was working, or if it was truly just a game feel issue, but keeping players in the dark is BHVR's own hobby.
An example of number 1 is stealth. Some people want a lot of stealth, some want little to none and instead a chase focused game. Neither desire is right or wrong, they are just different games.
That's reasonable, I suppose thats the crux of my personal philosophy for DBD lies. With 40 different killers in the game, you'd expect 40 different sets of strengths and weakness, and thus playstyles that require different approaches... the main point of my contention with the anti-tunnel changes is, what do we want killer design to look like? Do we want killers with unique strengths and abilities, like we used to have for old DBD? Or do we want every killer to have the same cookie cutter template like modern DBD? To take you're next point:
That's kind of where we are with anti-tunnel. Make it impossible (relatively easy to brute force in)? Make it harder (relatively easy again, just more basekit off of hook)? Make it a possibility, but less attractive (hard and seemingly what BHVR was trying to do)? If players disagree on that getting to the implementation question is going to mean they are talking past each other.
I think you're spot on, but I think there is still an issue with killer strength skewing the conversation, because for an m1 killer, those punishments are so harsh, they to me sit in the "Make it impossible" band for m1 killers. It's much more palletable as a "make it a possibility, but less attractive" if you're a top tier killer like Kaneki, Krasue, Blight, Wesker, Spirit, etc... However you can't afford penalties like that as a lower tier killer, where you often have to just take whatever you can get. If I get a player off hook be the one to trigger my trap and their unhooker doesn't come back to help them for me to m1... what do I do here? This isn't a strength issue... it's a concept issue. It's especially a problem when Survivor's can force your hand, such as getting unhooked and hovering near your totem or a nearly complete centeal gen, or sabotaging a hook, or baiting a Decisive Strike... I have to leave and let them do what they want off hook, or I have to eat a penalty... this again is conceptually a problem.
What I'm more arguing about it, is how do you impose such a hard set of rules, without placing a severe restriction on the designs of your killers? The answer is, you can't... Tunneling should not be the optimal strategy irrespective of the killer you play, that's an idea I can get behind... however in the same breathe, trying to impose such a hard set of rules to make it basically impossible to do regardles of context, inevitably is going to be incompatible with killers that deviate away from the enforced playstyle that the strongest killers are having those rules imposed for... m1 killers get stuffed by these changes even when not tunneling.
1: Balance is not the be all, end all, though it is really important. //...
2: BHVR's 60% KR doesn't add a lot of wiggle room on the overpowered side. //...
3: Hypothetically, they could address this by giving lower MMR monsters stronger high level addons than they do other killers. //...
I have no issue with your points here, they are all sound, however they do all feed back into my points above...
Even without the tunnel changes in place, you ask anyone what a killer needs for modern DBD, and the answer every time is they need mobility to keep up with the pace of the game... and thus becomes EVEN MORE important if severe tunnel penalties is a thing. This need to have this cookie cutter killer set of baseline abilities is already a problem now, and it's why every killer released over the last year all have some baked in mobility ability... can you imagine how much worse this issue gets if the afformentioned tunnel changes came in?
I play Pig, Trapper, Hag, Bubba, and there are a myriad of other off meta killers like Sadako, Pinhead, Skull Merchant 2.0, Artist, etc, that I enjoy because they offer something different to the fast paced norm of modern DBD, a more tactile element of the game that faster and stronger and killers don't have to pay attention to as much. I want to stress, I don't tunnel or camp (unless I have literally no other sensible options), and I often take lumps for doing so, but that's the area of the game I find the most interesting, where I gave to pay attention to what is going on in the trial.
I have wondered for a while if its fine to have weaker killers that dont scale vs. good survivors, as lowbies need to have killers to face too, and having killers deliberatey weak/strong to combat in particular hemispheres seems not.necessaroly a bad thing....
However the big concern I have though, is these killers often already have an uphill battle, even if you go balls to the wall meta and hard tunnelling... but when not tunneling, it's quite challenging handling the stark weaknesses these killers have... and it's why I ask the question above, how do you buff these killers in this new world order? They are fundamentally incompatible trying to play a game ruleset optimised for Blight, Kaneki, Spirit, Wraith, Wesker, etc... you would either have to make them all faster, or you would have to make them all very obnoxious, otherwise it's just pointless trying to play them... why put any time into a trying to fit a square peg in a round hole?
So instead of such a hard ruleset... I felt a more conservative approach that isn't such a hard ball slap is a better approach... because I honestly can't see how satisfying the condition of making a killer fun and fair can happen, when you're trying to insert changes that force a "fair Blight chase gameplay style", on a killer like Pig, without making Pig not Pig anymore... it just can't work that I can see…
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@Reinami said:
Its not, the thing that has slowly been killing this game is MMR.
MMR introduced an idea of "as i win games, i start playing against people who win games more often" so you are basically punished for winning in a sense. And this is in a game where you get no reward for that MMR, there's no ranking system, no leaderboards, or anything.
So it becomes a sweat fest. Because if i don't sweat, then i get stomped on and the game is boring. Thus creating a perpetual cytcle of everyone playing their best. And that results in both sides exploiting the biggest BS they have access to right now.
What the game needs is a proper ranked mode, that has ranks and leaderboards and the like. That way the sweats get want, and the casuals get what they want.
I have always found discussions around MMR are largely speculative and heresay tbh. It simultaneously doesn't work and pairs people clearly mismatched into the same lobbies, and simultaneously does work so that people keep ending up in the sweatiest matches together.
It strikes me as the boogeyman, where it is used too often as an easy blame for a lot of things because nobody knows anyone's MMR, not even their own, and can't check/verify anything.
My experiences with MMR, from where I guess I am as a relatively average player who plays off meta but does reasonably well: -
- Playing Comp with meta perks, Stier killwrs and item add-ons, going hard sweaty yourself tends to pair you against meta perks and players playing hard sweaty.
- Playing Casual with off meta builds, always playing for hatch, trying not to tunnel and slug, not using extremely strong Survivor items (syringes, BNPs, Commodius) tends to pair you with players that are also running sub-optimal builds/lower tier killers.
- Playing with players who are exceptionally good and/or playing sweaty tends to put you with more sweaty players running stronger sets.
- Playing with players who are new, not so good, or who also run off meta builds tends to pair you with lower tier killers, some even doing adepts.
I think I'm bouncing around the mid tiers somewhere, based on the fact I see A-S tier killers who play OK bir not great, about as often as I see C-D tier killers who play well. On Killer, I do see a spattering of string perks like Decisive, Unbreakable, quite often Lithe and WoO, a good few Dead Hards, but I only see the odd syringe or BNP, I rarely see a full sweaty Survivor lobby.
In all my experiences of the game, in mid tiers, the MMR system seems to do a generally pretty good job of pairing people up, based on what I would expect from the killer I am playing, or the teammates I am playing with... and from what I see, the sweats end up playing with sweats, newbies end up playing with newbies/adepts, and mostly chill players end up with mostly chill players.
The way I see it, unless you're an absolute God who plays mostly chill on low tier killers and wins all the time anyway, which is indeed you being punished for being exceptional... if your games are sweaty, there is a good chance you yourself, are sweaty, and the architect of your own downfall.
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I do feel like if you don't block the hit, your charge shouldn't be spent. I have accidentity spent it before trying to trigger another effect but the prompt hasn't switched in time.
Given you're most often getting hooked anyway, and ofc once the killer knows you have it, they're very unlikely to fall for it twice.
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@SoGo said:
I agree that he needs a buff.
I would do this:
- Revert Evil Incarnate's duration to 60 seconds.
- Revert Stalking range to 40 meters.
- Increase the amount of Stalk Points needed for Evil Incarnate to 7.
- Increase the maximum bonus dash range to 1,2 extra seconds (or more)
- Remove the sound that plays once the Stalk meter is full.
- Delay the stalking warning sound to at least 75% of the Stalk Meter.
And two not necessary, but nice to have things:
- Reduce the cooldown between dashes.
- Reduce his Evil Incarnate TR to 32 meters.
Reversed Stalk range bonus returning would be nice too...🙏