UndeddJester
UndeddJester
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Oh as an aside this is a very good video for Ghoul's counterplay:
https://youtu.be/PoC6kNCD0vI?si=saQGWFj0-Yauzoi5However I think you can see how short the windows are for the Ghoul's counterplay, and why input lag from vsync is a problem here.
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@AssortedSorting said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4034176#Comment_4034176
You can certainly decide to do that, though that is a pretty hefty risk to immediately go for deathhook given you only get the extended BT on your second hook, and it also assumes the killer doesn't hook someone else before you can take chase, and even if you do get your 2 hooks chase extended BT, you can still be effectively slugged for chase. I think playing the "hero" who takes constant chase is a skill expression that shouldn't be an option to you.
It is a risk for sure. And you certainly can just be slugged, like the DStrike days. (Which means slugging may be more beneficial than before.)
The Killer certainly can ping pong between survivors, but this can also include the rescuer, which may be easily done via proxy-camping, with everything consolidated into one zone on the map.
As an aside: All players equally skilled, I agree playing the "hero" isn't something that should be done, but that can be volatile. I know in the SWF group I just started playing with, we've got a god looper survivor flashy main, a Killer main gen jockey, I tend to play Killer more when solo but do play survivor some too and am a somewhat decent looper, and someone who just started and has less than 20hrs in the game. Whiplash between match results is real, depending on who is the first to get found. (And I've found great use out of Jonah's Corrective Action Perk). I would much rather take chase for the fresh starter.
I mean that's a decision. A second hook state is still second hook state, and unlike the old repair boost setup, a Survivor dying early is still not a desirable outcome. The killer only needs 1 other hook to be able to kill off a Survivor effectively like normal, so allowing a death hook Survivor early is still not a good idea for the long term effectiveness of the Survivor team as a whole.
It is a decision, but certainly one the Killer is weighing too, potentially making that decision for the unhooker (by tunneling anyway). All depending on how bad it actually is (for Survivors) to have a survivor on deathhook that early.
Well tbh, I would say Pain Res is not really meta for m1 killers. Pain Res relies on you being able to get downs consistently across the whole team, and many m1 killers cannot afford to hunt for all 4 players before the game runs away from them, and for Pop many M1 killers cant afford to keep stopping to kick gens... many m1 killers prefer Surge instwad for this reason. The problem is more pronounced especially if you hamper tunneling in that equation.
Depending on how this all turns out with anti-tunneling/anti-camping, those same M1 Killers may see an increase in the ability to target different survivors, and as such the viability of these perks.
Hmmm? Killer Instinct is only granted when the Survivor is not slugged? The idea is it's a incentive to just go for the end game instead of slug, since you get a clue where to look.
Oh, gotcha. In that case I still don't think it's a great idea, since those looking for the 4K will likely still slug anyway to prevent the hatch from even being a possibility, and should the survivor bleedout after finding the other survivor alive, that's still a 4K.
Oh, gotcha. In that case I still don't think it's a great idea, since those looking for the 4K will likely still slug anyway to prevent the hatch from even being a possibility, and should the survivor bleedout after finding the other survivor alive, that's still a 4K.
Aye this is true, though that's why I also gave the self pick up to Left Behind. This becomes a passive threat...
Do you leave a Survivor slugged and risk a Left Behind self pickup with a 32m hatch aura read? Or do you take the hook and get killer instinct?
Not great that it's a perk solution admittedly… but if someone gets sick of slugging for the 4k, at least they have a perk to choose, like taking DS/OTR if they get tired of tunneling.
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@AssortedSorting said:
Tunneling:
As an Entity Accursed Survivor, what incentive do I have to try to hide from the killer instead of taking chase, given I cannot repair generators/cleanse totem, etc. as fast as other survivors, and if hooked again, gain the benefit of an increased hook timer? Perhaps though I'm not good at chase, but I may have DStrike.
As an unhooker, what incentive do I have to make myself more conspicuous to the Killer and take chase, when I can repair gens faster than the unhooked survivor, may have more time to unhook the other survivor if they get downed again, and know the Killer may have a bit more of an incentive to find me than the unhooked survivor? But perhaps they're on death-hook.
Pain res is already meta. Does it really need a buff? In addition to the axing of toolboxes? Is more M1 gen simulator a good idea? Same thing with Pop. You're entrenching these to be even more meta picks and essentially form the game around them. Like old Dead Hard and DStrike. Especially paired together: Pain res → Pop the gen that regressed, also benefitting high mobility killers even more.
You've successfully made some perks that may actively entice the survivor to get tunneled, in addition to their base effects.
Slugging:
Desperation seems unnecessary, as part of an "anti-slugging" feature, but does seem to make being slugged a more interesting experience. Though I wonder if the sprint button could be incorporated in some manner: crawl faster but bleedout faster/more noise, with the speed increase based on recovery %.
Downed survivors being able to heal/stand each other up is interesting.
I'd say the Last survivor/all survivor bleedout situation should be addressed, but that was done via the abandon match feature. So then the concern is about heavy slugging while the Killer is occupying other survivors. (and making the dying state be a little more interesting mechanically), which the tandem pickup seems to address.
Some strong points there for sure.
As an Entity Accursed Survivor, what incentive do I have to try to hide from the killer instead of taking chase, given I cannot repair generators/cleanse totem, etc. as fast as other survivors, and if hooked again, gain the benefit of an increased hook timer?
You can certainly decide to do that, though that is a pretty hefty risk to immediately go for deathhook given you only get the extended BT on your second hook, and it also assumes the killer doesn't hook someone else before you can take chase, and even if you do get your 2 hooks chase extended BT, you can still be effectively slugged for chase. I think playing the "hero" who takes constant chase is a skill expression that shouldn be an option to you.
As an unhooker, what incentive do I have to make myself more conspicuous to the Killer and take chase, when I can repair gens faster than the unhooked survivor.
I mean that's a decision. A second hook state is still second hook state, and unlike the old repair boost setup, a Survivor dying early is still not a desirable outcome. The killer only needs 1 other hook to be able to kill off a Survivor effectively like normal, so allowing a death hook Survivor early is still not a good idea for the long term effectiveness of the Survivor team as a whole.
Pain res is already meta. Does it really need a buff? In addition to the axing of toolboxes? Is more M1 gen simulator a good idea? Same thing with Pop. You're entrenching these to be even more meta picks and essentially form the game around them. Like old Dead Hard and DStrike. Especially paired together: Pain res → Pop the gen that regressed, also benefitting high mobility killers even more.
Well tbh, I would say Pain Res is not really meta for m1 killers. Pain Res relies on you being able to get downs consistently across the whole team, and many m1 killers cannot afford to hunt for all 4 players before the game runs away from them, and for Pop many M1 killers cant afford to keep stopping to kick gens... many m1 killers prefer Surge instwad for this reason. The problem is more pronounced especially if you hamper tunneling in that equation.
However you do make a fair point that this does make these perks better in the meta, amd consequently the S tier killers even better... However I would also hope these changes would result in finally some actually nerfs for said killers in truth. But yes, downsides could be enough for that equation.
Yeah, being able to "sprint" while downed would certainly add at least an additional layer of agency/choice (even if it may not do all that much). I do think it should be as natural as just pressing the sprint button, but I agree the boost in speed shouldn't be accessible at full strength after immediately being downed.
Glad you like it bro! That's the main thing I like about it, and truthfully I don't perceive slugging as being the huge problem many people do. The one issue it does have is that Suvivors crawl so slow, they can't move from/to location if they need to, to recover if the killer leaves them slugged. I feel like the fact the Survivors have more options and isn't the instant game ender it currently is would resolve a lot of the slugging frustrations, as well as make it not something you can 100% commit to as a winning scenario.
I don't think Killer instinct on the last downed survivor is needed. You decided not to pickup.
Hmmm? Killer Instinct is only granted when the Survivor is not slugged? The idea is it's a incentive to just go for the end game instead of slug, since you get a clue where to look.
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@Gandor said:
generally good ideas 👍
there are just 2 points i would like to address. Corrupt idea sounds fine and fair for majority of killers, but it sounds unacceptable vs blight (and nurse to lesser degree) with lethal and corrupt perk - i don't think i need to explain more…
second point for your antislug - a lot of your suggestions solve the case when last survivor is on the ground, but IMO this is solved w basekit mori already (we can ignore other effects of this, but one positive thing is that the game ends quickly when downed as last person). But the excessive slugging is mostly problematic for when there are last 2 survivors. If one goes down and the other one hides, you get stalemate for up to 4 minutes provided killer does not extend this time. IMO these effects should kick in for last 2 survivors, or give option for one survivor to outright die after some time given to killer for fair chase potential (idk. 45s with your 6s of killer instinct?).
Anyway In most cases killer already won with last 2 survivors (basically guaranteed for 2+ gens left), so IDC how to solve it from balance pow, but make the game interesting or cut it short.
Very true, and I only skipped talking about S tier killers to avoid muddying the discussion, but I'd have a hope that with Corrupt made partially Basekit, perhaps these killers can finally be afforded some actual nerfs.
I did try to hit more slug for the 4k stuff. The only reason I went for more defences on slugging is so that survivors do have options. None of these effects are insanely strong, but teh game is definitely not over with these changes once 4 man slugged. Seems a generally good move for the games health.
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@ShanoaLegendaryPlz said:
It would all probably work well. Im just not feeling the whole glowing eyes thing for most of or half the match, the hud marker (orange claws) would be enough i think.
That's fair, probably is a little on the nose.
I just wanted some kind of visual indicator on the actual Survivor model for the killer as to which Survivor is the one Accursed... the creepier the better 😏
Perhaps little shadow tendrils appear occasionally biting as the Survivors soul, or a shadowy traslucent silhouette of their soul occasionally thrashes in pain out of the character model, a bit like Sadako's demanifested form.
We can dream 😅
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@Lexilogo said:
This is a pretty well-thought through idea, and the concept of the Entity Accursed status is a very interesting idea to try and make tunnelling less appealing. I do have concerns, though:
- To my understanding from reading, this mechanic would essentially become permanent on the last Survivor to get uniquely hooked, which doesn't feel intentional? I assume it'd actually work something like once every Survivor has experienced EA once, the last Survivor with EA has it expire over a minute like with the others
- I'm a little worried that EA status would still be used aggressively. It doesn't directly make looping easier, but the person with EA does naturally become the optimal Survivor to be engaging the Killer from the Survivor's POV. Maybe EA status could be cleansed over time by working on gens, in addition to the passive decay after another Survivor is marked, that way you could use EA status as an excuse to attempt a godlike chase performance, but more realistically you'd want to jump on a gen ASAP so your team has as little time as possible dealing with the status effect slowing down gen progress?
- On the inverse side, I also think Moris or mini-moris could be used to sidestep EA's biggest downside for Killers, which is that 35 second stay of execution for death hook. If you're bringing a mori, hard tunnelling an EA survivor would only really change that basekit Borrowed Time duration- I still think tunnelling someone out ASAP would remain optimal.
With some more workshopping I think these problems could be resolved though.
In general, I would be receptive to trying a system like this or inspired by it. BHVR's attempts this year have felt like they're trying a bit too much at once, but this feels more focused. I agree tunnelling/slugging should remain parts of the game, it's just a matter of altering the incentive structures. I'm personally especially in favor of the "slugged survivors can revive each other" idea, I've suggested something like it before and think it's worth trying on a PTB.
Man, what an I possibly add? Every point there top draw. Great eye 😅
To my understanding from reading, this mechanic would essentially become permanent on the last Survivor to get uniquely hooked, which doesn't feel intentional? I assume it'd actually work something like once every Survivor has experienced EA once, the last Survivor with EA has it expire over a minute like with the others
Ah yes... slight oversight... 4 unique hooks though removing the effect seems a good idea. The Entity has tasted all 4 Survivors and thus is sated until the end of the trial. That seems a fair addition.
I'm a little worried that EA status would still be used aggressively. It doesn't directly make looping easier, but the person with EA does naturally become the optimal Survivor to be engaging the Killer from the Survivor's POV.
Solid point, and I like your suggestion here. Seems sound.
On the inverse side, I also think Moris or mini-moris could be used to sidestep EA's biggest downside for Killers, which is that 35 second stay of execution for death hook. If you're bringing a mori, hard tunnelling an EA survivor would only really change that basekit Borrowed Time duration- I still think tunnelling someone out ASAP would remain optimal.
That's a very solid point, hadn't considered that… the mini Moris are an issue, and off someone like Pig or Sadako, Myers, or Pyramid Head would have to be an exception. They might be fine due to the their lower mobility and alike....
Mori however are a definite concern. Would likely have to give Moris the same rule restrictions as the hooks and simply not allow them on an Entity Accursed Survivor... though that feels a bit of a cop out...
AnyAnyway absolute food to think on. Cheers man!
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@MechWarrior3 said:
I feel like this is a really nice layout of ideas and changes! Honestly! Not perfect but better than what we have been offered.
Thanks MW!
Trying to solve this thing is definitely a poisoned chalice... I don't think any suggestion can be made for this thing that wont be highly controversial...
I tried to compromise as much as possible and be as fair as I can to both sides. Fundamentally it is impossible to give a 100% effective solution for every possible scenario that isn't also abusable AF, and there is no way to make everyone happy with any tunneling or slugging change.
We are trying to change mechanics across a huge gulf of skill, across a huge roster of different killers with a massive disparity in strength, and trying to diminish what is effectively the most logical way to play... No matter how you slice it, in a 4vs1 game, no matter what game you try to design, the outnumbered side will always do well eliminating 1 person as fast as possible, and that is completely sensible and logical approach to that game. It is just not something you can get rid of without a lot of reasons to do so.
I'm not sure I compeltely support all of these changes myself tbh... but if the goal is to put a serious dent in tunneling, these seem like an OK start 🥴
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@Shroompy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4033543#Comment_4033543
I dont think this is taking into account that the offering also has a chance to send you to Greenville, The Pizzeria and Fallen Refuge.
So its a 20% chance, then we have to hit a 25% chance.
True, I forgot that, basically a 5% chance... so the odds don't look quite so ridiculous xD
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@random1543 said:
Nowadays her power isn't the thing that makes me not like her its just her design I dislike, nothing to be annoyed in match over but yeah.
I want to verse killers that are scary/ supernatural elements like the majority of the cast. I understand her design in based on a manga her dad made or something but could of been so much cooler then just a chick in a diamond mask.I wonder if you'd get more fulfillment from her design, if you think of her more like Ted Bundy.
A high functioning, attractive psychopath that most people would not hesitate to trust because she is attractive and seemingly has everything she could ever want... but kills people brutally solely because it is amusing to her.
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I didn't do the maths, I knew it was binomial probability, but thats asking me to go back 10 years... and I always disliked stats xD
So, Google did it for me... and the probability of getting exactly 2 out of 100 trials on a 20% chance is 0.0000063%... or 1 in about 158'730.
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It's an interesting question because the name Vecna is a name assigned by the ST D&D crew, like the Demogorgon, but its not a name he takes himself. Unlike the Demogorgon, Vecna is a human intelligemce, and as such it would be strange to refer to him as Vecna at all...
That said, we the audience also pretty know him as Vecna, so it becomes a bit of a challenge to come up with a name... he's reffered to as the Whispered One I think at some point, but that is exactly the same bag, only so named by the D&D character he is being based from...
So I'm really not sure... I'm actually struggling to come up a accurate name 😶
Good knowledge shout btw, I completely forgot he was referred to by that name 😅
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Even though I'm British... happy thanksgiving our
traitofriends across the pond 😁🤘 -
@jesterkind said:
While Corrupt Intervention is an extremely valuable perk (and honestly it's unorthodox but I kinda want it to become a universal perk and Plague to get a new teachable for this reason), I do have one issue with it becoming a basekit feature, and that's the pressure it puts on certain killers to rigidly stick to only one playstyle.
Trapper is the golden example here. Is CI a bad perk for Trapper? Well, that depends- if you want to play a setup heavy playstyle, yes, it's counter productive. Survivors both get pushed towards your web before it's done, and get gifted untouched generators on the opposite side of the map to said web. It's a bad pick if you want to set up and just not concern yourself with the generators furthest from you.
However, CI is a good perk for Trapper if you want to be more aggressive, only setting down one or two traps before going and playing M1 chases + utilising traps mid-chase.
Making it basekit effectively locks out any Trapper player from actually trying to set up because the feature would run completely counter to their intended playstyle.
In the same vein but to a lesser extent, Ghostface and Myers might want to play aggressive and have the survivors run into them, or they might want to try and leverage survivors being in predictable, static spots to get some early uninterrupted stalking in. Basekit Corrupt would force them to only do the former.
When it comes to giving killers basekit buffs to help them out if any proper anti-tunnel came to live, I think the focus should be more on giving players a helping hand towards keeping pressure up, rather than directly helping them with the early game. That said, I do think we should get more perks like Corrupt and Lethal, because both are excellent for helping killers who need a boost in the early game.
Admittedly Lethal less so than Corrupt because it universally benefits everyone, including the top tiers, but still. New perks in this vein can have the "disable when someone's downed" stipulation built in like Corrupt does to mitigate this.For bonus points, there should be multiple varied choices for this in the universal pool, so players aren't required to purchase new killers or gamble on the Shrine to benefit from this. There are some useless universal killer perks, can always rework those if we don't want too many new ones added.
Interesting perspective man.
What I will say regarding the examples you give, is I understand the point and don't disagree, though in all cases, I would assert that the respective loss in value to those alternative strategies would be minimal. A hard setup/lockdown Trapper for example is likely running Trappers Sack and either the Iridescent Stone or the Bloody Coil. In these cases interrupting his setup doesn't really cost him, and actually gives him more time to set up his web, since he can get some early injuries/time wasting instead of only coming live when 3 gens are already done. Similarly for Ghost Face and Myers stalk, the plan changes slightly, instead of hunting gens far afield, you are affording the ability to wait for passing stalk instead. It seems to me the playstyles will still be doable, but will naturally adapt to the change, instead of being lost.
That said... to be fair I do feel the same way, I domt really want Corrupt Basekit. Generally speaking I don't agree with making numerous perks basekit, since I feel basekit SHOULD be as bare bones as possible. I feel similarly against basekit Kindred (and basekit BBQ as we had before), because I actually enjoy trying to read the trial and make decisions with imperfect information.
It goes without saying I was dead against giving Survivors basekit partial OTR, Lucky Break, Iron Will, etc for similar reasons, and the original 9.2.0 version I was dead against the basekit Pop, Furtive, BBQ, since it tries to push everyone to play like a nice Blight, which a number of killers simply aren't compatible with, and can't be used as a balance medium.
Although its not a popular opinion, typically speaking outside of a few sweaty S tier games, I generally enjoy playing DBD as a Solo Survivor. My games are usually not particularly sweaty, I don't see successful tunneling and slugging anywhere near as much as some people claim, and the times it is successful, often it's pretty understandable why the killer does it, and I'm rarely sore. I often run Tenacity because when I do get slugged, ditching the killer as I recover is insanely fun to me. Ironically I get more mad at tunneling in 2v8, because there is far less I can do about it when I'm found, and takes a much firmer commitment for the killer to do.
Anyway... point is, I don't really want to grant Corrupt Intervention either basekit... but as Survivor I don't want the anti tunnel or anti-slug changes either... but I seem to be a minority in that opinion...
So, if the course of the game IS gonna involve me compromising, and bringing these anti-tunnel and anti-slug directives in to the game, I would rather take that change with basekit corrupt than without, since it actually would somewhat meet nerfs to Killer tunneling and slugging with nerfs to Survivor gen rushing in a way that less beneficial to faster killers than slower ones.
It's the best I can think of to make a passable, if rather bland sandwich... instead of the 12 inch ######### sub the tunneling and slugging suggestions alone were proposing. 😅
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@Khastrx said:
Basekit Corrupt is not bad (if it was weaker than the actual perk ofc)… but then the killers who did run it would just replace it with Lethal Pursuer instead. So I think indirectly it would continue to benefit stronger killers as they would be able to get both effects of these perks; without one taking up a valuable slot.
Indeed, that is a valid set of concerns, and should be part of the conversation.
Lethal Pursuer would likely need to be toned down, and it isn't as easy as just removing its starting effect, as it still needs to do SOMETHING when it's on its own.
That said, if I've got basekit Corrupt… that does impact the potential value of LP... its like do I really need Lethal Pursuer if I have Corrupt already? The main reason I want Lethal is to get immediately into chase so Survivors can't rush gens before I find them, without the "One and Done" problem that Corrupt has. With Lethal I get a fast start and the benefits of future aura reading... that's the reason to run Lethal over Corrupt.
However, an early down removes Corrupt, so having Lethal to get immediately into chase and get a fast down isn't as valuable for Killer compared to other perks you can bring instead.
One could reduce its initial aura read to 2 secs (4s with its passive increase)....
However to be fair, I'm also of the belief a change such as this would hopefully afford a nerf to the more insane killers in DBD. Without Survivors put of the gate gen rush capability, there is a better argument for toning down as S tier killers in the name of the "need S tiers to keep up with SWFs" point.
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@Leon_van_Straken said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/461124/corrupt-intervention
You could say your fat fingering was a "corrupt Intervention" badumm tss~
God damn it xD
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@jmwjmw27 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4031810#Comment_4031810
I'm dropping my comment to express my opinion as one of the minority (at least here, based on comments and downvotes) that actually likes the new look for Autohaven. It brings back old DBD vibes for me. Sure, it takes some adjusting, but I like it.
I actually feel the same... it is noticably bright I think, so the critiques aren't invalid... but I do like the foggy atmosphere, that hasn't been a thing really since I started playing.
Maybe I just really like fog... blue tint, green tint, don't really care... I just like fog 😶🌫️
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@THE_Crazy_Hyena said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4032366#Comment_4032366
I'm tired, okay. I mixed them up a bit.
But yes, they were misplaying a bit, being overly altruistic, like going for unhooks while in chase.To be honest... I don't call that "misplaying a bit"... my language for players who do this is not very charitable at all... 😅
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/461075/killers-need-major-nerfs-now
This seems to be a little bit overkill but basically in the drection that these should go. There needs to me more filler tiles, but the filler tiles should be less safe, and effectively be 50/50s. While the stronger tiles should be on the edges of the map. This creates gameplay that isn't just "run to nearest pallet and immediately drop it" because you have to acutally think about when you drop the pallet.
Ideally they need to slightly lengthen up a few of these loops and we'll see some solid balance that will buff survivor players who aren't as good, while nerfing top mmr survivors.
Doesn't this have the problem though of taking m1 killers always to the edges of the map, where the simple time they need to walk back after fighting in a strong tile isn't worth it?
Like if Survs can just Lithe or SB to the edge of the map where the strongest tiles are, that sounds even more punishing.... At least if strong tiles are in the middle, forcing a strong pallet early can pay off later, and I can use perks like Surge for when I do get a down, and am still in the vicinity to fight for gens as an m1 killer....
You push this to edge of map, I have to drop chase all the time, cause I can't afford to go that far afield.
Fundamentally it's an unsolvable problem... mobility combined with lethality at loops makes strong killers, and Survivors need more resources to combat these killers compared to ones that lack one of these traits.
- Characters like Hag, Pig and Ghost Face lack loop lethality and mobility, and need power by other means... inability to apply their strengths such as not being able to defend their web, not getting downs for trap pressure, and not being able to stalk crush them.
- Characters like Trickster, Artist and Clown are lethal at loops, but are low mobility, and can be beaten by taking them far afield away from gens snd pre-throwing/leaving.
- Characters like Sadako and Wraith have high mobility, but lack lethality at loops, and can be beaten by playing chase well, greeding pallets and forcing pallet breaks.
- Characters like Blight, Hillbilly and Spirit have both lethality and mobility, and can easily force/hit around pallets while sticking on a Survivor, and get back into the map efficiently.
The worst part of this is tunneling, both lethality and mobility facilitates tunneling, but at least on killers missing one element, it can be made somewhat costly for them to tunnel... on high mobility high lethality killers though... do you have safety nearby? No? Then you just die. If you do have safety nearby? Better play it perfectly, or you just die.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
Making it a general efficiency bonus that works all the time would make it too similar to charge addons, at that point they would basically be doing the same thing just with a different method of achieving the same result.
I think it should be 60% but only on altruistic heals (not self heals), which would actually beat most of the charge addons (except Gel Dressings which is iridescent) if used for altruistic healing (you would only use 10 charges instead of 16, which is enough for 2 full altruistic heals + a little extra on its own) but with the drawback that it doesn't work on self healing
Edited in your version, cause much better idea. Hope thats k! 🤘
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
Making it a general efficiency bonus that works all the time would make it too similar to charge addons, at that point they would basically be doing the same thing just with a different method of achieving the same result.
I think it should be 60% but only on altruistic heals (not self heals), which would actually beat most of the charge addons (except Gel Dressings which is iridescent) if used for altruistic healing (you would only use 10 charges instead of 16, which is enough for 2 full altruistic heals + a little extra on its own) but with the drawback that it doesn't work on self healing
Fair point that man, good suggestion.
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Survivor Buff: Ability to see ALL active perks/effects on your teammates in the trial. E.g. see Sprint Burst or Lithe when triggered, see Deliverance when enabled on hook, see Decisive when activated on unhook, Soul Survivor only activates when last alive, etc.
Survivor Nerf: Nerf Commodius Toolbox to 24 charges. Delete Worn Out Tools and Engineers Toolbox.
Killer Buff: Corrupt Intervention basekit, or a similar mechanic where there is a small buffer or mini game Survivors have to complete before starting work on gens.
Killer Nerf: Strong regression perks altered to deactivate when a player dies and/or gain bonuses for unique hooks/lose bonuses if hooking the last hooked Survivor.
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I used to get so annoyed at him turning around tiles to hit me, and I'm glad to see that seems to have been put a stop too with his add-ons reworks.
Despite that, even from a concept POV, I still don't know why his kit is as stacked as it is... I would happily see one of the following changes: -
- Becomes 4.4m/s.
- Loses all stacks on a stun.
- Loses all stacks on a pallet break.
- Can no longer pallet break.
- Longer miss cooldown.
- Loses all stacks when ending power.
I dont care which part of his strength he compromises on, but all the above not being a factor makes him so consistently and oppressively strong. The fact he gets everything: insane mobility, fast pallet breaks, short cooldowns, fast stack recovery and a consistent pool, 4.6 even after a miss to effectively zone... it just makes him such a pain to play against, and he gates so many things in the game from coming through for the rest of the roster.
Just like Nurse he causes problems. Killer perks have to be constantly toned down, Survivor pekrs need to be jacked up, and maps need to be made pallet hell, just because Blight is in the game... he basically gatekeeps all killers from getting any decent changes.
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I don't think racism can really be claimed... but I am definitely Sablist.
Especially if they have her bikini and her short skirt cosmetics... I have no doubt those players are playing with the screen uptilted the entire time... its the most benefit of the doubt I can give that explains why they constantly screw me over with the most single IQ plays I've ever seen every single game.
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@ShanoaLegendaryPlz said:
When i last tried to play hag i got to a generator that was nearly finnished, with 2 survivors on it, they spread out in 2 seperate directions of the hallway and waited for me to chase either one. If i placed a trap the other would wipe it away and work on the gen, if i went for the other - same thing. If i didnt commit to either of them, the gen gets done, if i stay and protect the gen, the others get done by the other 2 survivors. It felt pretty helpless. And the ward effect you mention of not being able to easily wipe them without it going off within 30s would certainly help with that scenerio. And her biggest frustration point with survivors is the minefield around hooks camping playstyle which thatd also prevent. Sounds like decent changes
Cheers! Indeed posing an actual threat as a 4.4 killer when people can so easily subvert your traps is a constant source of pain...
This is what always leads to Hag's playimg her in such nasty ways, such as Rusty Shackles, Mint Rag, Franklin's and Weave Attunement, and then trapping the hell out of hooks. It's effectively her equivalent of basement Trapper, her power can be shut down so easily, you basically have to force Survivors to play this game to pose any threat at all.
I also appeciate the response in general! Trying to get a conversation going about Hag sometimes feels like trying to sell car insurance door to door... even though it's something that ignoring it causes a big problem when it crops up, no one wants to hear it and would prefer you to just leave 😅
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Question...
If 20% of the playerbase is killer, and the reasoning for the changes not to come in didn't meet the quality gate that BHVR set, which I would assume would need to be at very least majority vote...
Doesn't it stand to reason that... just maybe... not all Survivors agreed with the changes either?
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I like the fact this is now consistent with the self unhook from the AFC... and the AFC meter being shown is a good SoloQ SWF gap bridged.
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131 days encounting...
Apologies for the bump... but I was gonna make a new thread asking once again about removing S tech against Hag, and this thread still basically makes all the points I wanted to make and then some.
From the killer side, S tech kills the killer and makes it pointless to play her. She is total bully fodder for Survivors who know about it. While someone following her and removing traps is annoying, at least having to crouch up and wipe away takes times, but S tech just nukes her web playstyle from orbit.
From the Survivor side meanwhile, Hag always runs Rusty Shackles (because again, S tech can't be tolerated) giving virtually no chance to outplay a triggered trap while allowing some truly nasty builds; and/or she traps the holy crap out of hooks to proxy camp, because that's all you can do to prevent Survivors busting down your web with ease.
So, I have to ask, when are we going to do something about: -
- S tech (running into you screen with your camera facing backwards to auto run from traps when they pop)?
- Rusty Shackles, the ever problematic add-on?
- Hook trap spam, the playstyle that people do instead of playing Hag properly?
Hag can and alwaya does play so nasty, and is suxh an insanely unfun noob stomper for newer players or in soloQ, but she has to because of the ways people can screw her over. The fun playstyle of her maintaining her web, planning ahead, and pushing survivors towards her carefully prepped machinations is never the Hag anyone sees... and these changes would be the minimum requirement to change that.
I'd love my other changes too, but as a bare minimum, this killer needs these elements addressed.
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It can be an issue if you're not experienced with him, but I've been playing Ghost Face a lot more lately and finding good success.
While I don't understand really why his duration is nerfed, a good looper can certainly outlast your mark by running pallets, I have a few tips that might help: -
- Run Fearmonger. The 5% Haste while unseen really helps you in general movement, catching up, and even gaining a little more distance at loops, as your small frame let's you be unseen often. You can also crouch to reset reveal and regain a little speed back while doing so to retain chase pressure. Any time you have to break away, or move across the map, Fearmonger just let's you get around more efficiently. Additionally if you're forced to m1 early, your teammate gets a nice haste boost.
- Don't be afraid to stalk like Myers in the open. Maps are big and Scouts can't follow you easily (see Fearmonger). Your aura isn't revealed while in power (slipping behind terrain) and you have a very long stalk range, any stalk you build is good stalk.
- Don't be afraid to stalk in Survivors face. If you aren't gonna catch them before a pallet, stick to the wall, pop power and lean to stalk them instead. There is a good chance you can get to 70-100% stalk, which with your cooldown means you can catch up and do a quick pop down when the cooldown is off. Remember, any stalk is good stalk.
- Your teamate doesn't spend your stalk when they hit a Survivor, so if they are chasing an injured Survivor, stalk them, but don't pop the mark. This can come in really clutch later, again... any stalk is good stalk.
- Unlike in 1v4 you can pop power immediately after a hook since the hooked Surv can't reveal you. Undetectable is very useful in 2v8 because Survivors are often watching the other killer and their auras. Grabs are common, especially again with Fearmonger.
He isn't the strongest 2v8 killer in any way, but he is quite fun with Fearmonger, and when you get that mark just as your teammate m1s, it's glorious... also best Mori. 😉
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I just wanted to appreciate the skin... 🥺🥺🥺
https://youtu.be/X79YckEyaes?si=wiiFLPuHLDrABXal -
Sounds fair to me. Also opens some nice build options, which I always appreciate.
Skillful play is rewarded on the Survivors part, it's not automatically free or affected by healing speed add-ons/perks, and its something that an m1 killer can see and either commit to if they want to incur the risk, or ditch without incurring an immediate big pressure loss as said survivor still wants to heal.
It also gives players an effective tool against tunneling killers, that isn't prevented by slapping a Survivor off hook to put them in Deep Wound. Makes Blood Rush a decent option for anti tunnel cause you can get 3 uses of an exhaustion perk.
I like it, though would it still consume the medkit? Perhaps it should only consume the add-on, like BNP?
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And nothing wrong with it. Doing gens is survivors' goal, so why MMR should ignore it?
Ah that's not what I meant, I was speaking specifically in the context of Survivors raising MMR based purely off rushing gens with BNPs, Commodius Toolboxes and perks like Built to Last, which is itself an issue that needs to be contained.
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I think there were many good reasons why this iteration never came in, though the fact none of it did is surprising... 30 of Endurance and Haste is dumb, but Elusive was fine... I see no reason that should stay on the cutting room floor.
Now is the time to strike while the iron is hot and talk about what tunneling changes SHOULD happen, so the killer can spreads hooks and actually generate pressure instead of throwing the game...
Would also be nice if we can do it without smashing m1 killers into the dirt... again.
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@HolyDarky said:
I still don't understand why the developers keep postponing the Elusive status effect because out of every basekit buff, this one is fine and I've never saw anyone complaining about it. I don't see a problem of 20 seconds Elusive status effect after the unhook.
Instead of nerfing already mediocre perks, the devs should buff perks that encourage the killer to hook multiple survivors. Ravenous or None Are Free are good examples of perks that encourage hooking but also different survivor, however, they are just weak because the reward is too low for such a big effort. I also think no killer perk needs a nerf right now. They also got crippled, which resulted in a low variety for killers. For example, no killer perk can be compared to SB, Lithe, or Vigil, which are all insanity strong but free perks with limited to no counterplay while the "strongest" killer perks requires effort.
We need to get rid of perks that punish the killer for hooking which means a nerf to Deliverance, Dead Hard, Resurgence, Wicked, or Shoulder the Burden. There should be no perk that punishes the killer for hooking or even encourage them to slug/tunnel. However, we can rework these perks in ones that punish the killer if they decides to tunnel like Deliverance only triggers when you get hooked two times in a row. In the same way, if we wanna encourage the killer to spread hooks, toolboxes need a nerf as well as the hook timer.
No, killers should get basekit rewards for hooking different Survivors. Making the whole "MR Nice Guy" depending on perks is just wrong. Give Killers basekit rewards that don't trigger when they tunnel or disable once one survivor is dead.
@fussy said:
Honestly Elusive was good idea, I'm sad it won't hit live. Same with unic hook bonuses idea. Because you won't eliminate tunneling from the game without breaking it core at some point anyway, but I don't see a reason why we can't give killers rewards for unic hooking, since it kinda solve 2 big points:
– Make survivors happier by giving the other side initiative not to tunnel
– Make spreading hook less of a intentional throwing the game
But biggest change is MMR change and I can't describe how happy am I about it. I've said it million times – MMR is where MAJORITY of game problems begin. "Oh no, hardcore tunneling Blight tunnels me out at 5 gens", "Oh no I got 0 hooks against this swf", "Oh no Nurse slugged us at 4 gens" – it's all nothing but MMR problems, where one side going against other side which has completely different skill level.
It's such a smart move and honestly have a faith at BHVR first time in long months. Biggest, most needed step in a right direction.Whole heartedly agree gents, I believe given how the tunneling changes have been walked back on twice, its clear that trying to shunt a playstyle with heavy handed bonuses that just make tunneling impossible for majority of the roster is not gonna work.
The fact they are looking at MMR is very positive change. Currently a Survivor who dies when practically winning the game for their team gets dropped in MMR, but the Survivor who basically just sat on gens, or even worse... ratted the whole time goes up in MMR. Survivor MMR needs to be tied, at least partially, to the result of the trial overall. It's tricky cause you can get carried hard by other players, but careful use of emblem system holds promise.
Tunneling is gonna come up again and again though, and the fact we're gonna have to face is, if you don't want people to tunnel, then both sides need to have their ability to rush down the game cramped significantly.
A killer can only chase 1 survivor at a time, and when spreading hooks needs an average of at least 8 hooks a game to realistically 2k. So if you want 30, 40, 50, 60 second+ chases to be a part of the game, this can't be a chase time that leads to 2 or 3 gens popping. It needs to be worth the killers time not to tunnel, which means effectively slowing the game down.
On the flip side, Survivors need meaningful counterplay against killers if killers do tunnel, the killer rushing down a player at the moment is met with Survivors rushing down generators as fast as possible in the hope they can do it before the tunneled Survivor dies.
There is no 1 change that's gonna address/bandaid fix tunneling, numerous elements of the games design have to changed to ease more towards this goal... My hope with this "Unique Hook"/"Hopeless" mechanic is it can become an additional tool in that series of changes.
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@Elan said:
The problem is the gen speed. Literally every game popping 3 gens in few minutes. And with all pallets being there, abandoning strong area chases, you can't truly compete out of the unholy 4 killers up there. Not against lvl of survivors i play against.
Perfectly fair, though I don't think there is any one magic bullet to address tunneling, it's got to be a lot of design changes together.
For example, I've often batted around an idea in my mind of Survivors have to run to different "connection points" for the gens that are shown via auras at the start to link the gens to the gate.
Only a little 5 second task that the killer cants really defend that they have to run to and do first before they can hop on gens, could even let linking them show the gen that you linked for 12 seconds to help newer players find a gen to work on at the beginning.
The point I'm making with this suggestion is, the core design of perks should encourage killers not to tunnel, to reward them for not doing so, and giving us an additonal balance mechanism to have stronger perks that encourage a less tunnel oriented playstyle.
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@Memesis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4029903#Comment_4029903
Funny you mention that, I learned that if your monitor is at 60hz and you're running your game at 60 frames, you will STILL get screen tearing if v sync is off (unless something like nvidia g sync or amd's freesync is in play). And if v sync IS on, you WILL get the input lag, regardless of monitor refresh and frames. On console, regardless of which monitor I used, I still got the input lag. Tested on Xbox series X and standard PS5 on monitors with amd free sync and one with Gsync.
Aye I've been reading more and more into it and thinking about how vsync works, and yeah it seems kinda unavoidable that you get input lag with vsync on.
If I understand correctly, for PS5 and Xbox you can mitigate it as much as possible with a 120Hz refresh rate screen for the 60 FPS game, but you're still gonna get input lag no matter what because effectively what you're seeing on screen is simply not updating every frame flawlessly to match what the game is updating in its CPU logic, especially if its not a stable 60 fps at all times...
Oh well, I actually prefer the input lag for skillchecks on console cause they aren't as boring, and at theast the input delay is consistent and learnable. I don't notice anything when running around otherwise... so just a minor nuisance in the grand scheme.
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@Memesis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4029773#Comment_4029773
No problem! Ultimately I think screen tearing is preferable to input lag, I wish the option was available on consoles.
What's baffling ne is I started looking into it, my TV has a refresh rate of 60Hz and PS5 is capped at 60fps…
So input lag doesn't make sense unless I'm getting constant slight fps misses... 😵💫
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@Memesis said:
Not just playstation. All consoles have horrible input lag, but it is consistent enough that console players adapt to still hit skill checks. If you switch from PC you will notice it. I think it is caused by v sync being forced on. If you turn it on on your PC it will be exactly like console.
This is the kinda thing I wanted to investigate when I had a chance.
I knew it wasn't: -
- The controller Bluetooth
- The console controller libraries
- The HDMI cable
- The frame rate
- The TV refresh rate
Thankyou for doing the leg work and showing that it can be reproduced on PC, and thus proving the cause.
Now to brush up on my v-sync knowledge to see if this is expected (I always forget how vsync precisely works until I look it up).
Either way, good job that man!
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@BbQz said:
They really need a character limit for posts... Essays created probably by chat gpt. To argue for some vague point? I really don't know after reading your whole post what the heck your point is... You either hate the direction of the game trying to balance the survivor role around crummy tactics or so other ambiguous grief.
But geez what you said and your point could have been conveyed in a paragraph longer is not better and some times less is in fact more.
ChatGPT? Please, such a trite and dismissive post, with no intention of understanding a different perspective. So to respond in kind:
Some us aren't of the "can't read longer than a paragraph before getting bored" social media crowd. If you come into a discussion with no intention to engage with it, why are you even here?
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@hermitkermit said:
Is it fair to say your view is that once tunneling, camping, and slugging become less effective, DBD stops being horror because survivors gain some protection? And that horror only exists if survivors can never feel safe?
If that’s the core of it, I’m struggling with why those specific tactics are what define “real horror.” I get the idea that forcing a killer into targeting rules undermines the fantasy. I can even agree that dictating who the killer can chase isn’t scary. But by that same logic, there’s nothing scary about the killer tracking someone by bright neon scratch marks or hearing map wide sound notifications. DBD already bends or breaks most classic horror rules because pure horror simply doesn’t translate into a competitive game.
So if we’re talking about DBD purely as a horror experience , yes, I agree it misses the mark in plenty of places. But I don’t believe protections against tunneling, camping, or slugging are what push it off that mark. The game is full of mechanics that sacrifice realism and genre accuracy so the game is actually fun to play. Scratch marks, aura perks, entity blockers, HUD information, hooking instead of instantly killing, crows that alert your location when you hide, not being able to fight back against the killer… none of that would exist in traditional horror, but they’re necessary here for the sake of gameplay. There are limitations, rules and restrictions for almost every part of DBD and I don’t think adding more of them to these particular tactics is doing something that all other mechanics already haven’t done. I dont think these tactics should be excluded from balance just like everything else in the game is, even if it’s for the sake of an inaccurate depiction of horror.
It’s the same kind of compromise DBD has always made. Horror is the theme, but gameplay is the foundation. And the foundation already bends genre rules in every direction just to function as a game.
I'd like to think my point is little more nuanced than that, in that what makes DBD a horror game is the fact you are facing a human intelligence, a player who is far more powerful than you and trying to kill you .The real amazing point of video games as a medium is to put you in a scenario that you wouldn't experience in real life.
Imagine being in Texas Chainsaw Massacre... if I'm put up on a meathook, and someone breaks in to get me off so we can escape, in that moment I am fearful of the "killer" coming back and cutting me down again. I am in a weakened state, and an easy target... the only way I might not be the immediate target is if my ally is a more apparent target and I get away unnoticed, or if they go for them instead.
If I am the unhooker, I am trying to get this other player out alive, it is important I do so when the coast is clear or if I have no other choice. I need to put myself in harm's way to try and protect this person.
These are the ideas that swim around the threat of tunneling, these are the "horror" tropes and scenarios playing out how theynlogically would in the same scenario in real life. Take this same scenario again and now slap 30s of invulnerability, improvement movement, no sounds or visual indicators for teh killer to track you... I.e. you are as safe as can be. This defies the horror idea and I don't see how you can argue with me on that.
This is why I prefer low and mid tier killers to high tier killers, because the fact the killer can't freely sprint across the map to tunnel, and actually has to put a pretty big commitment on tunneling, with the threat of the likes of decisive strike and alike, we actually get to play out our horror scenarios.
Getting rushed down by a tunneling Nurse, Blight, Kaneki or Spirit, doesn't play out like horror scenarios do. The 9.3.0 changes don't stop these killers really... which is just bloody great isn't it? But they sure as hell stop the killers who actually do have to make quite a commitment to tunnel from posing the threat and eliminating the horror element from teh scenario. All arcade bullshit, no actual horror.
Yes gameplay is important and should be a carefully considered factor, but my entire point is the game is becoming just a tag game, and abandoning any premise of maintaining its horror theme. Horror is not meant to be nice and pleasant where we all have fun and larks, its supposed to feel tense, and uneasy. We all understand the rules of the current trials, and I consider part of the game to make it as costly as humanly possible to tunnel and slug. On high tier killers it doesn't matter, but it does on mid and low tier killers... and that's the game that's dying.
DBD I think will be fine, I'm sure the Fortnite marketting style and arcade type gameplay will be fine, but any characters and mechanics that fed into the ideas of this being a horror game, now suck completely, and have no reason to play… so as I said the horror elements of DBD just die.
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@GentlemanFridge said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4029035#Comment_4029035
Oh I'm not dismissive of the definition, it's the term itself that I don't like. It feels rather cynical and assumes a lack of care. I also have it with 'friendslop', which is arguably an even worse offender.
I know it's rich coming from me, since I am the same person who subscribed to the whole 'descriptivism over prescriptivism' thing. But it just feels inherently dismissive. "I don't like this therefore it's slop" kinda deal.
idk it's based on vibes more than anything, nor am I asking anyone to take it seriously. You just won't hear it from me.
Fair play, to be fair, I am rather dismissive of dashes and haste buffs.
I personally hold the perspective haste is something that is obviously good in a game such as this, and is a cheap/lazy way of making something meta. Not to say you ant have haste, but you have to be VERY careful when and where you apply it.
With the lastest run of killers, haste seems to be the "quick and dirty" way of making something viable...
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@GentlemanFridge said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4029006#Comment_4029006
Not really related, but I personally loathe the term 'dash slop'.
More to the point, I think you're right in that it is more or less inevitable, by the game's very design. By appealing to the many, the few that made it popular in the first place lose interest.
Not really related, but I personally loathe the term 'dash slop'.
Is fair enough, I use the term because it succinctly describes a problem I've identified in many games I have formerly been a fan of, are usually are popular features that undermine the more tactile elements in the game.
Mobility/Repositioning quickly is almost always valuable in any game, I like games to be something you have to think a bit more about, the more different and unique the thinking puzzle is, the more I'm interested. To give an example, the entire point of a "class" in class based games for example is to have specific strengths, but more importantly, specific weaknesses that other classes provide. If you have classes that effectively do the same thing, what's the point?
The reason I dislike mobility as powers in games is quite often they switch a tactile skill into a mechanical one. Mobility achieves several things at once: -
- It allows players to play aggressively, manifesting as the ability to constantly throw caution to the wind and try their luck (think throwing power constantly at Survivors and forcing pallets for DBD).
- If they win an exchange and have the advantage, their rapid movement often allows them to press that advantage to quickly capitalise on it (think quickly undoing the post hit sprint away of Survivors).
- If the lose an exchange and have to disadvantage, their paid movement often allows them to quickly undo that mistake and prevent their opponent from capitalising on it (think getting stunned by a pallet/Decisive Strike, but still cutting off a Survivor before they make the next one).
- These kind of abilities often allow the user to snowball, as they can get ahead by playing aggressive, and once ahead, retain the above abilities but now with even greater risk of the other side falling even further behind (think of downing another Survivor very quickly after a hook, and then making it hack in time to tunnel off hook as well).
- These abilities also allow the user to dictate everything on their terms, the opposing side can only react to what they do, they cannot force a difficult decision out of them, they are matters of their own plan (on DBD think of a Clown committing to tunnel a Survivor who take them to main building of Disturbed Ward vs. The same with Blight).
These elements, while loosely defined, are seen in many types of tactile games, and their appeal is they are flashy, allow you to forgo many of the risks that come with your decision making, make your opponent have to work much harder to outplay you, and replace many tactile limitations/weaknesses you would normally have to account for with purely mechanical ones that can be bypassed with appropriate input skill.
As such I like the term, because to me it means "fast and stupid". Not meaning the people who play it are stupid mind you, but merely their decision making is nowhere near as challenged compared to other choices, and thus, these sets a baseline in the game that anything that doesn't offer that mechanical skill expression can't compete with...
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@GentlemanFridge said:
Personally, I think the death of horror is inherent to the arcadey nature of the game, which encourages deep familiarity. Knowing the exact numerical values of your opponent’s abilities means you know, at all times, what your opponent is capable of, some techs notwithstanding.
I’ve long thought that the change to explicitly state the numerical value of add-ons was the first point that the horror of the game was fading. It gamifies what used to be heavily flavoured aspects of powers and items. It allows players to optimise their builds, and turns the add-ons, which originally rich in lore, implicit storytelling, etc., into just images + names that modify some number in your toolkit.
Furthermore, the repetitive nature of the game turns what is supposed to be a threat into an annoyance. This is present in all horror games that want you to replay them. Players then ask them to be nerfed because they’re annoying, the monster gets nerfed, thereby reducing the threat of the monster, reducing the horror factor even further.
Lastly, as a disconnected thought: what kind of horror could DbD even be?
Psychological horror doesn’t function with the game’s premise. There’s simply no room for it, especially now with how optimised the gameplay has become.
Body horror wears off upon repeated exposure.
Cosmic horror is also largely psychological in nature, and is entirely irrelevant if you don’t care for lore.
Phobias suffer the same fate as body horror: repeated exposure is bound to reduce the effect.
Gore, see above.
So, like, what’s left? Horror requires the player/reader to be willing to engage with it. Generally speaking, the current playerbase doesn’t care all that much about the horror anymore. They want to play a competitive game.
So, like, what’s left? Horror requires the player/reader to be willing to engage with it. Generally speaking, the current playerbase doesn’t care all that much about the horror anymore. They want to play a competitive game.
Indeed, and this is what catering to a mass market always ends up doing in any game. It takes the unique selling points of the game that gives it its niche and its identity and slowly strips them away until nothing of the original premise/concept is left.
Horror is already a bit of a niche format already... DBD being a competative game... it's a game of virtual tag... and what things are good in a game of virtual tag? Speed, finding players quickly, and the ability to land tags around obstacles...
Can you say Dash Slop? Cause that's all a competative game of virtual tag will be. I suppose this patch was inevitable 😏
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4028976#Comment_4028976
The altar this is being sacrificed on isn't "play nice." It's the altar of "balance."
Sometimes, there are worthy sacrifices to said altar. Like old DH, or instant heals, or old mori's.
Other times, we burn things we shouldn't have. Like atmospheric maps, old graphics, fog, horror aesthetics etc etc.
The continued push for balance has, ultimately, destroyed the horror theme of the game. This last change may be the final nail in the coffin, but it wasn't the largest nor most impactful nail struck. It just happens to be the last in a long line.
Thats fair, though I don't think it can be called "balance" when you have killers fundamentally incompatible with the playstyle being affirmed by the 9.3.0 changes, that can't and won't be realistically be buffed to compensate for being forced to play that playstyle.
With the tunneling changes, Pig, Hag and Trapper cannot be forced to play like nice Blight.
With the slugging changes, Sadako, Oni and Twins cannot be forced to play like nice Blight.
With the camping changes Huntess, Plague and Executioner cannot be forced to play like nice Blight.
This isn't balance, it's affirming 1 single playstyle above all others, the playstyle that is all action, not horror. There is no change you can make to these killers to allow them to thrive in this arena that rewards their unique playstyle... all you can do is make all killers homogenous...
However that seems to be a sacrifice many people are happy to make.
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@Pulsar said:
Hate to tell you this, but even if the changes went through as-is, Survivors would still be far less safe than when I started playing. Safety doesn't have too much to do with horror.
The fact of the matter is, DBD hasn't been a horror game in a long time, it has no atmosphere, no identity. It's more just a game with horror characters in it.
With all due respect, given our discussions kf the past, you're a legend of the game from its infancy where the game had its most broken mechanics but players never had the thousands of hours of skill and knowledge they do in modern DBD. You've seen the era's of map infinites, broken mori's, numerous slowdown and second chance metas, and the evolution of DBD over it's lifetime. When you started playing, players in general were much worse and trying to hide and not be found because looping wasn't estalished yet... or at least a very largely unknown skill in teh player base.
As time has gone on, the game has switched to this looping idea being the centre piece of DBD gameplay, which in turn has led to many elements of the game being redesigned as I've described. We have these high level killers now that can get across the map super fast, brute force hits around tiles, and bypass Survivor defences because that's what is required to keep up. These killers are all action, no horror, and being the level of play you are (given what I've seen you post in the past), this is the game you see all the time.
All of which is basically my point. In the absence of stealth, when not playing the high level DBD rush machine, the mid levels of play feel much more like a horror game. Killers don't have the power to exert pressure on gens AND still get back to hard tunnel at the same time like they do in high level play. The constant feeling the killer can always come back for you is the only horror left to be had in modern DBD, and to be fair, the ineptitude of soloQ helps avheive this as well. That killers can slug you if you make it easy to do so, or can camp you if you give them good reason to, these are things that make DBD stimulating to me. I have been unhooked many times on death hook and tried to hide, holding my breathe to try and not be found for the tunnel. Or tried to loop somewhere the killer has to drop chase.
If I'm succesful, there have come moments I've said to myself "I need to stay hidden above all else", and eventually "Ok, I can't hide anymore, its do or die". These are things that typically happen against mid to low tier killers, high tier killers you just can't get away from most of the time if they choose to tunnel, so there is no attempting to hide or stay out of the way, it's all action, no horror.
These 9.3.0 changes are basically to my mind are admitting defeat, and just hammering nails into the coffin of DBD as a horror game... the game is basically being geared only to high level killers, and all the nice little features left in the mid level that still give the horror experience, are just being ham fistedly shunted out the game on the altar of "play nice".
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@nikodemo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4028410#Comment_4028410
no , lore accurate cases only. they can deal with it.
Meanwhile me cursing the Entity looking at the 3 thirst Sables doing nothing in my lobby 😒
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@Deadman7600 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4028542#Comment_4028542
Not all the killers get that treatment though sadly. Ask ghostface who got introduced with 3 negatable buffs and a nerf.
Yeah Deathslinger too gets basically nothing... yet Oni gets a huge list of buffs when you could and should give him nothing and he'd be fine.
Still, I don't think that lunacy changes the point 😅
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I feel like it being seasonal is better.
The novelty wears off after a few weeks and I kinda wanna go back to playing more regular DBD without having to face SWF SWAT teams.
In its current form I feel like it doesn't overstay its welcome, and is something to look forward to.
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@KingOfDoom55 said:
He literally has an addon that reverts him back to his old power system
I don't agree the add-on gives people old Myers back, and it's still right to be upset about it.
Unless its gonna give me back stalking from 40m and having a better stalk efficiency the further I am away, and a genuine reason to do it... Myers old add-on doesn't give me what I want of his old gameplay.
My biggest annoyance of modern Myers is he is not even encouraged to stalk from afar, cause waving your face around tiles and building Stalk at point blank is just more effective... and I don't think Myers hovering around windows desperate to get a look, like he's a deprived peeping Tom, is the mental image that makes him iconic.
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@Dec4y said:
Nemesis needs this too.
Not really struggled as much with Nemesis personally... but yes, this is a fair point, it would make going for hits ASAP much better on him too!
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To be fair, the primary point of killer is their power, that's why they get their power jacked up the nines. The classes add a little extra, but the star of the show is the killer themselves...
Comparatively the Survivors are entirely defined by their class, thusbtheir class has to do more of tne heavy lifting for the Survivor gameplay... so Survivor classes being more engaging/game defining than killer ones just makes sense.