UndeddJester
UndeddJester
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I'll forever keep peddling my suggestion to change Lightborn so you can still be "blinded", but you are instead immune to the blinded effects (blind splash, stun while carrying, and disabled lunge).
This would mean the killer can act blinded to try and outplay a flashlight player blinding them at a pallet, and generally increases its interactivity instead of just hard noping it.
It also adds synergies with Shadowborn and Hex: Two Can Play, but also does mean the killer can be affected by Champion of Light and Residual Manifest to give some counterplay back to Survivors instead of just being hard countered entirely.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4012645#Comment_4012645
The simplest way of explaining my position is I like elegance and subtlety in game design. I like rules to be simple and make intuitive sense... there is a lot of complexity in DBD, but the basic rules of the game are quite simple.Sure, let me expand on that bit to make sure we're on the same page.
To me a really good game frequently gives the player a few choices with easy to understand risk/rewards, but also have lots of subtle complexity that make the "correct" decision never obvious. DbD generally does this really well. Do I pre-run and create distance, but risk losing gen progress if the killer doesn't show up, or stay on the gen to maximize progress while risking a shorter chase? Do I pursue the injured survivor away from the gens to get a down and risk losing gens, or do I let them go and potentially heal while I protect the area? Scenarios like these are common and one of the things that makes DbD great is that when people come to ask for advice and lay out a hypothetical, the answer is usually 'it depends'.
Which brings me to tunneling and 1 of the 2 reasons I think something needs to be done. It's simple, but not elegant. Tunneling is the "optimal strategy" to use a phrase that's been floating around. A good game should not have an optimal strategy that is just the default presumption on how to play the majority of the time.
This whole system is none of these things, it takes a relatively simple premise and starts slapping asterisks on it, with rules that are contradictory to the original premise and makes the killer objective unclear.So let's talk about BHVR's proposed solution.
I'll start by not wanting to rehash my own version of something I've said a bunch, which is that BHVR too frequently tries to reinvent the wheel instead of taking the obvious approach. If it was me, I'd probably have just done the 'delay unhook notification' and see how that works for a few months and then make additional changes to either side as needed. But in fairness to BHVR, and I've been pretty negatively lately, if they didn't take the "swing for the fences" approach they probably never would have even tried to design a 4v1 asym horror game.
But anyway looking at the proposed idea and to what degree it adds asterisk on to things:
Since it has come out I haven't liked the use of 'rule' or 'punishment' even as BHVR has adopted some of that language. As I said above, I think games are about risk/rewards: trade offs. A killer can still tunnel, but its not the optimal strategy that should always be pursued any longer. If you get a survivor out too quickly they do gens faster, or you can risk spreading pressure to deny this benefit, but give them more time with four survivors alive.
And yes, it creates a situation where a killer could not be tunneling, but then get in a position where an elimination is the best course of action but the survivors get a boost. But I don't think the goal of this change was just anti-tunnel (if it was I'm tempted to take back my earlier complimentary statement to BHVR), but a larger reimagining of the game. I think too many people approached the PtB on the idea of 'okay, this should never trigger because its a rule' to looking at it as just another game element to consider.
Is that concept ruining the simplicity? I don't think so, though I certainly think there are easier approaches. They should probably get rid of the idea of gens blocking and tie the speed boost to number of hooks (i.e. not a threshold, killing a survivor on 3 hooks gives the survivors a larger boost than killing one on 5 hooks). If they want to stay with the idea I think that keeps it simple, more hooks, more risk, but less boost.
Thanks man
Cheers the response man, I greatly appreciate the effort that went in to it, with well thought out and well put together points and arguments. It's a refreshing change compared to how discussion over that PTB have usually gone.
You do raise a good point about reimagining the game, and in amongst all the smoke, I am absolutely not against reducing the effectiveness of tunneling. As much as I bang on about this PTB, I do agree that the tunnel situation is certainly not elegant… what my issue has always been is the ham fisted approaches to achieving the amti tunnel goal, and this idea that these changes should have gone through because stopping tunneling is more important than any of the issues around it.
How to buff m1s?
What I would have expected given the, to me, obvious issues with these changes as highlighted above, is we as a community would keeps the bits that were sensible (like elusive), discuss the issues and come with alternative and better solutions for the bits that were obnoxious, introduce the risk/reward you're talking about but avoid sledgehammering m1 killers into the ground with little more than token buffs that don't synergise with those weaker killers.
As already said by others in this thread, buffing lower tier killers isn't really possible, because they become oppressive at lower levels. This is a major issue, people have cited Trapper, but while he is a good example, a far better example is Pig, whom I main... and what terrifies me most is how these killers get buffed in this new world order.
Pig ultimately is a killer who has to take whatever she can get. You are constantly having to reevaluate your situation to try and figure out the best way to squeeze Survivors, and when she gets the chance, she is very good at doing so... this is what makes her incredibly good against weaker survivors, she needs a couple of Survivor mistakes to get her snowball going, but once she has it she can be deadly, and low skill Survivors give her those opportunities...
As a result she has enjoyed a high kill rate because of it, despite the fact that she is a C, some people argue D tier killer. My big concern is, if you take away her ability to capitalise on those survivor mistakes, she has to be buffed, substatially... but what do buffs to help Pig look like? Can she even get any because she does and probably still will enjoy that high kill rate at low MMR? Anyone who puts time into Pig inevitably hits the Pig wall, where you start going against Survivors who are competent and know what they are doing... and your games get exponentially harder.
I'm a killer who started out alway going for 8 hooks and could do consistently on Pig without tunneling, slugging or camping... I would punish obvious misplays, but generally I was very fair... Then eventually I switched to 6 hooks then kill, I had to because I was regularly starting to throw games trying to 8 hook, finishing with 2, 1 or sometimes even 0ks regularly... and nowadays I often have to kill on my 5th hook because the game is just running away from me, I just take too long to down, even if I'm playing my mind games well... and often even then, I'm still quite often losing the game or snatching a win on the bleeding edge.
I'm still not tunneling and not slugging, but it just keeps getting harder and harder to even get my RBT pressure going... and I do get the odd 0k from time to time... With the tunnel changes proposed, I saw no way you can buff Pig that doesn't make her oppressive at low level and bully fodder at high level, that also doesn't butcher her identity beyond recognition.
An alternative suggestion
A suggestion I've been spitballing in my head for a while regarding anti-tunnel is some kind of Despair/Hope mechanic (sadly I don't have a better word than hope, and it's taken already, but to present the idea)... Something like:
- Despair: Whenever a survivor is unhooked they suffer a stacking 20% Conspicuous Action penalty for 120s.
- Hope: Every Survivor who has a 1/2/3 hook stages left over another Survivor gains a 0/10/20% Conspicuous Action bonus.
This needs fleshing out, but this rewards killers who spread hooks by inflicting multiple repair and heal penalties across the Survivor team, slowing their speeds overall, while also decentivising tunneling because the tunnel target has a penalty you aren't benefitting from, and you risk giving the rest of the team a boost to repairs if you continue to tunnel.
Combined with the elusive change, that is a thematically satisfying, far more reasonable set of changes to build around... but conversations never made it this far, as slamming m1 killers in the dirt was seen as completely fine... it reminded me of the Skull Merchant conversations, where if you didn't blindly support the popular narrative (no matter how unreasonable it was), you were public enemy number 1... and the way things looked, we just couldn't get Survivors and Killers on the same page to even attempt to hash out a more reasonable answer. 🥺
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4012320#Comment_4012320
Lots of this seems to have relatively simple solutions and answers.
1: Right now there are D tier killers. There will be D tier killers after anti-tunnel. It's potentially an inevitable portion of the game for a variety of reasons. A new system creates a possibility of change.
2: Other types of change are even worse. All of the pallets just got added are having a substantial impact on those very same killers. They said they want to improve the survivor experience, anti-tunnel with compensation is not nearly as bad as some other possibilities for these killers.
3: While high mobility killers could get more access out of the unique hook benefits, they were also the killers who had the easiest time tunneling.
4: I think the unique hook benefits are underrated for some killers. Things like free info from basekit BBQ are of substantial help to a stealth or trap killer.
5: Even if all of that fails, there's a simple solution. Just as there is tier of S class killers who get less benefits, they can create a new tier for the C-D tier killers who get more benefits. If Trapper is unable to get Pop value as frequently as a faster killer, then give him a stronger Pop. If in fact a group of killers falls behind, they could give them as a group a buff with the system they proposed, something that will never happen under the current system where they go one by one making killer changes.
Fair enough, though I remain unconvinced, cause we're still asking all killers to play the same way, a playstyle that fundamentally benefits a particular archetype far more than others, and imposes a set of restrictions that savvy survivors can exploit to insane degrees.
I won't go off again explaining all the various reasons in depth why I hate the conception of these suggestions, I've discussed it till blue in the face in many threads already.
The simplest way of explaining my position is I like elegance and subtlety in game design. I like rules to be simple and make intuitive sense... there is a lot of complexity in DBD, but the basic rules of the game are quite simple. This whole system is none of these things, it takes a relatively simple premise and starts slapping asterisks on it, with rules that are contradictory to the original premise and makes the killer objective unclear.
It stops killers playing in this unfun manner, sure, but even for killers who are not playing in an unfun manner, it creates weird scenarios where the killer can't capitalise on Survivor mistakes because the game arbitrarily punishes them to do so... and this reality makes Survivor just as unstimulating for me.
I have a game here that demonstrates my point well. Main important portion of it starts about 2 minutes in
https://youtu.be/iS44qKOdbWY?si=Zw6bg_uFVpRjnfKhThis game, is not what I would define as tunneling, the Xenomorph did not sprint immediately back to hook with the clear intention to tunnel me, and I have Wicked to prove it. I even have Empathic Connection and Kindred, so there is no SoloQ excuse, Survivors know where the killer is and where I am at all phases here. What happened here is the Survivor team (including me) made a number of mistakes that kept bringing the killer to me and set me up to die very quickly, mistakes that I cannot blame the Xenomorph for capitalising upon. For them to ignore me, it would have been very nice of them, but also it's not the point of the game.
This new system as proposed would remove all of the mistakes that we made here, and I dunno man... that's a level of hand holding that I don't want.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4012213#Comment_4012213
myriad of very obvious problems it entailed
I saw no evidence of problems, and only panic, anger, and other emotional responses. People have been "finding problems" with the system since they put the words "anti tunnel" on the road map, and it has literally nothing to do with the actual details, or the system, for most people. Based on the things people say on here, most killer players can't even think of any other way to play, and don't believe they can adapt to the change.
And given that there were only 2 days of actual testing, I don't honestly believe there are as many actual issues as people are trying to say.
People claiming that 25% gen speed will somehow cause survivors to die intentionally are just delusional. Same thing with "but if someone dies in the first minute why can't I kick gens?" Because you've already won the game at that point. That's why.
The one and only thing I wanted to see in testing I never got to, because they pulled the plug too fast... But did those systems, as "punishing" as they were, even matter? I didn't see anyone continue to tunnel to even see if the systems made a difference, because, and here's the real trigger for people: if hard tunneling is still the "best way to play" even despite these changes, then it's likely they actually weren't enough.
shooting m1 killers in the knees and at the same time giving killer side a bunch of effects that only benefitted the A and S tier killers
I hate to break it to you, but addressing tunneling needs to happen first. Because we can't ever seen to have any meaningful discussion about "what about trapper" until tunneling is addressed.
Then we can actually have some discussion of how we can individually buff killers who need it.
Because starting with killer buffs hasn't worked in at least 3 years now. Buffing killers had only led to more tunneling, and we still have the same disparity between blight and trapper. Maps are smaller (trapper buff), pallets are weaker (trapper buff), distortion nerfed and aura reading off the charts (trapper buff), healing nerfed (trapper buff), 7.3.0 patch notes (literally trapper buff).
And the result of all of that and tons, tons more, is that we're still having the same discussion about how trapper isn't as good as blight/nurse and we can't possibly do anything about tunneling. Yet every single one of those buffs directly or indirectly buffs tunneling too.
Tunneling first, then we can finally have the room to talk about how to fix "D tier".
Well I can't see how you reach that conclusion myself to be honest; the proposed unique hook changes as written had a clear and obvious preference for highly mobile killers who are also lethal in chase.
- Pop Goes the Weasel - Favours mobile killers that can make it across the map quickly to reach gens before they pop, and also requires a kick of the gen, which again favours mobile killers who can catch up after the fact.
- BBQ And Chilli - Favours mobile killers who can get across the map in time to reach Survivors in time to capitalise on the auras.
- 10% Haste buff for 15s - Doesn't address any non mobile killers issues, and because haste is proportional to how faster the killer is going, has greater amplified effects on faster and more mobile killers.
However you slice it, mobile killers won out way more on that system over less mobile killers, and it doesn't take a genius to see that mobility is already a massive boon for a killer to have over his immobile counter parts. That is why, barring few exceptions most mobile killers are typically B-S tier and immobile killers are typically D-B tier...
With the changes provided there is a clear and obvious preference for mobility, that leaves any killer who is immobile fundamentally incompatible with the new direction of the game, and this creates a more insidious problem that no one wanted to talk about.... what do these hypothetical buffs to these killers look like? "Trust me bro, we'll fix em later" is not something I can put stock in if the fundamental mechanics of the game are hostile to anything that deviates away from "down fast and sprint across the map to stay viable".
You want to buff low tier killers in this new world order after the tunneling changes are in place? Tell me, how do you buff Trapper? Hag? Pig? Myers? Sadako? Ghost Face? Bubba? Clown? Deathslinger? Trickster? Etc?
Because short of just slapping some kind of high mobile ability on them, you basically have to make all of them super lethal in chase to make up the difference to match up to their A and S tier counterparts... everyone either becomes homogenous... OR you have to make all of them extremely obnoxious in their individual identity, kind of like the Clown changes were...
- Trapper - Massively increase his trap setting speeds and haste boosts so he can lock off tiles and catch up quickly so he can effectively chase new Survivors in areas he isn't already set up in.
- Hag - Needs a rework/overhaul to allow her to establish/maintain map pressure to effectively chase down Survivors... possibly something like her teleport Iri basekit.
- Trickster - Needs to be able to maintain LoS and down much more quickly with his Knives to the point it's unlikely for him to have much counterplay
What about alternative kill condition killers?
- Pig - Massively crease the lethality of RBTs, bring back gates opening trigger traps, lower the timer overall, make headpops far more likely to make her weak mobility and chase still allow her to be actually dangerous and still overcome the tunnel punishments. Or make the RBTs pointless and turn her into discount Chucky.
- Sadako - Massively ramp up the danger of condemn, grant passive video tape Condemn accumulation, etc to allow her to pressure the whole team consistently even through the tunnel changes, or make her condemn toothless and instead ramp up her chase somehow.
Fundamentally these changes shifted the game to the Kaneki / Krasue style of killer design. Highly mobile, little counterplay in chase, cause thats the only thing that would be viable. I dunno about you, that sounds like a bloody awful direction for DBD...
...and your answer to anyone who doesn't already play highly mobile/lethal killers is effectively "screw you, you don't matter, no one likes you anyway, we just wanna face Wesker".
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With how ready and willing so many people were to throw at least 60% of the killer roster in the dumpster with the original proposed changes and simultabeously be completely unwilling to give any time of day to the myriad of very obvious problems it entailed... I'm extremely worried about the return of these changes.
I don't disgree with reducing the power/effectiveness of tunneling/slugging... but shooting m1 killers in the knees and at the same time giving killer side a bunch of effects that only benefitted the A and S tier killers, instead of taking the obvious route of taking a nerf hammer to those A and S tier killers and then buffing killers across the board was madness to me.
The way discussions were going around the issue, I genuinely feel like DBD is on borrowed time if anything even remotely resembling that PTB ever comes back...
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Why are you playing M1 killers? At this point can you not see you are merely a toy for the Survivor teams amusement as an m1 killer?
The only type of killer welcome in modern DBD are highly mobile dash killers. You should be playing Spirit, Wesker, Hillbilly, Blight, Nurse, Dracula, Kaneki, Krasue... that's all anyone wants. Nerfs to these killers are slow and basically inconsequential.
Every other killer keeps getting screwed over by ever improving survivor basekit effects and perks designed to crap all over m1 killers... whenever anything that gets added that further increases the gulf between m1 killers and the mobile/lethal killers, far too many players clap like mindless seals and defend the changes zealously.
- Made For This
- For The People + Buckle Up
- 5s Decisive Strike
- Old Circle of Healing
- The fights for Shoulder the Burden to lose it's exposed effect
- Ghost Notes and Sprint Burst
- Tunneling and Slugging PTB
- The list goes on...
They slaughtered Skull Merchant and refused to entertain any of the myriad of suggestions to fix her, instead opting to just shoot her in the knees with a shotgun. Chucky got reworked over and over again to remove all of his uniqueness and become just a plain dash killer. They even tried to gut Pig's RBTs and make her all about her ambush... and to this day won't let Sadako have anything to help her out.
This game hates m1 killers. The new standard has been set, nothing can deviate from it, and it's name is Dash.
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@Rickprado said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4010627#Comment_4010627
It would be easier to make SoloQ closer to Swf and balance things accordingly. I don't that nerfing someone playing with friends would be a good thing.
I disagree, because to level the playing field between SoloQ and SWF, you have to remove all communication differences, and that would require stuffing the Survivor HuD with all kinds of auras and info to even have half a chance, and there would still be a massive diff on the communication gap that no amount of HUD spam would solve. "I'm taking the killer to shack" is a simple yet very beneficial comms evenfor casuals. "Pallet is gone in main". "I'm going for the pickup, oh wait, no he's chasing me". Even a "Ghost Face is heading to you" is a benign communication gap that you can't realistically bridge without just straight giga buffing Survivor, that all make a big difference.
You could add voice comms, but that would be so much more awful than people think. It would be common place for people to be toxic, harass people, complain, rage, talking smack or throwing the game due to a fallout, and that's not just DBD, that's gaming in general. Even I myself am an arse on the mic when I'm annoyed... and I get mad at soloQ a lot, to the point I'd keep myself mited for fear of saying something I shouldn't.
People tend to think of this SWF suggestion as a punishment. I do not, I see it as merely a rule change. A change that helps promote the health of the game, and makes build creation with your mates more engaging and interesting. It's easy and effective at reducing SWF ability to abuse strong effects, while still allowing SoloQ to get strong effects.
At the end of the day, we all complain that SoloQ gets left behind, but reality is SoloQ can't match up to SWF... It just can't, because you can give whatever buffs you like to SoloQ, but SWF gets them too, so you simply can't bridge the gap unless you are willing to limit SWF in some fashion.
This is a sensible and logical rule, that helps define teammates with more of a "role in the team" mentality, that to my mind adds more to SWF than detracts from it.
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Nurse is almost there; removing auras on her during Blink fixes her last remaining real issue. The only points to possibly consider nerfing her after that if she still needs it are: -
- Her Heavy Panting add-on makes up a lot of ground for a bad initial blink or a bad chain blink. It either needs a completely new effect, or a substantial trade off (like 10% longer blink charge time to make both the initial and chain blink more difficult) to warrant its strength.
- Successfully stunning a Nurse is both hard to do, but also unrewarding. I would consider resetting her tokens and only beginning recharging them once she recovers from the stun. This makes pallets, Decisive, and Flashlight saves things that can actually make a difference instead the nothing burgers they are ar the moment.
Blight however needs so much more doing to him, it's hard to know where to begin, and I don't think I can claim to be knowledgeable on him enough to say how he should be nerfed... but if I were to take a punt.
- Make him 4.4m/s.
- Consume all his charges whenever he has to inject OR explore this "overdose" mechanic they had in his original design.
Lastly, limit SWFs to not be allowed to take more that 1 version of a perk or add-on between everyone and actually build as a team. This would free up a lot of perks from being held back by SWF, and would level the playing field with SoloQ a tad… as well as make playing SWF in general more interesting.
Will never happen, but its nice to have a dream 😏
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@IndigoNinja said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4010410#Comment_4010410
I'm not going to lie, I genuinely messed up with calculating the numbers for how much of a detriment Vanishing Box is now. Rather than the passive charges/second being reduced, the reality is that the amount of charges needed to reach the spawn threshold was increased by a stupid amount.
Also thank you for adding the visuals and commenting this to make it easier for people to understand the math of the situation, because it certainly helped me to realize the mistake that was made, lol.No worries 😁🤘
As I look at it, the 8.3.0 version requires 2 Weakened Survivors just to get back the same Hallucination Rate. Effectively you're giving up traversal pressure, for the leg up the add-on gives you in the mid game to round out the downside.
Having to have 2 weakened Survivors to break even on hallucinations AFTER already losing gens to get it, for that mid game potency seems a reasonably fair trade to me…
The 9.2.0 version when you need 3 Weakened Survivors JUST to get back to a comparable playing field... yeah this seems a little silly. This is way too harsh and makes the add-on too heavy a downside to reap it's benefits 🤔
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This is a little complicated, because the add-on feeds directly into Unknowns resource management and grants him effectively "free" hallucination progress passively... however it is off of losing generators, so can only happen so many times... striking the right balance is hard.
For anyone who is one of the uninitiated and wanting the full info on Unknown Hallucinations without looking it up.
Normal hallucinations:
Vanishing Box:
8.3.0 Vanishing Box:
Hallucination Spawning time: 81 charges
- 0 Weakened Survivors: +1 c/s or 81 seconds.
- 1 Weakened Survivor: +1.25 c/s or 67.5 seconds.
- 2 Weakened Survivors: +1.75 c/s or ~46.3 seconds.
- 3 Weakened Survivors: +2.375 c/s or ~34.1 seconds.
- 4 Weakened Survivors: +3.5 c/s or ~23.1 seconds.
Homework for suggestions:
To work out any new values for this add-on:
Number of Charges: 45c × (1 + decimal_val). E.g:
- 80% = 45 × (1 + 0.8) = 81 charges
- 120% = 45 × (1 + 1.2) = 99 charges
Time of Hallucination: Charges ÷ Charges per Second. E.g:
- 1 Weakened Survivor normally = 45c ÷ 1.25c/s = 36s
- 3 Weakened Survivor on 8.3.0 VB = 81c ÷ 2.375c/s = 34.1s
Since this add-on has this hallucination side effect, that directly feeds into itself, trying to find a fair and balanced point is tricky. It depends entirely on the skill and play style of the Unknown as to how good it is... largely this would be a "feeling it out issue" over many players of different skill levels.
Purely subjectively, 100% seems a nice figure… it makes all the number easier, as you literally just double the base times, so you don't have to do all the crapola above 😅
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You may well be onto something.
If you look at his teleport, it's got setup issues like a trap killer, and similarly can quite easily be undone by Survivors, all for effectively less power/flexibility than the likes of Freddy, Xenomorph, or Springtrap. This doesn't really seem fair.
It's not like his Shred is in the same league as other dash killers, given he can't turn for hits nor hug tech in any way... at least having a solid TP improvement would help him maintain his macro.
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@CrimsonMothKing said:
She just does so much, so quickly.
If they make it so she doesn't infect people as quick, slow down when she can attack after spitting/transforming, remove infection on hook and lower the turn radius on Whip she would be better.
Personally, I would have her be 110% (24m Terror Radius) in Body form, increase her cooldown on spit and recovery and then you can keep her Head form the way that it is.
Maybe even slap on her pallet vault consuming headlong flight charges, but that's just me.
I think she is really fun to play.
I actually like this set of changes.
From the perspective of console, does anyone else find the Regurgitate does require you to be quite precise where you hit on the surface, even with the auto aim? Because the auto aim seems to be limited to 180 degrees off the surface it bounces from, not the AoE that Unknown has. I did with console Krasue find it tricky to actually land the right spot reliably on quite a few surfaces... you did have to very mindful of where that projectile hits to actually get the spit to scatter and land correctly on the Survivor.
While it does look quite easy for PC, I did find it quite tricky at some locations on console to land the infection, and my impression is that having her be 4.4m/s in body form so that getting around in time to get the right ricochet angle would open up some opportunities to dodge her projectile a little more consistently.
A lot of people talk about removing the auto aim, but short of making it larger bomb (and basically a carbon copy of Unknowns power), the auto aim doesn't seem too bad outright to me if she's 4.4, since it'd be more about getting the right angle for the bounce o the wall, rather than Unknowns more trying to time the projectile to drop at their feet.
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I just don't understand the live buff changes.
I don't know how a rational person can look at this and think "yes, this will be perfectly fine and balanced for the live servers, without any need to test it or gather feedback at all".
Some of these buffs weren't unreasonable, but to shunt this big a set of changes without testing anything is absolutely wild to me.
You really have to wonder who OK'd this, and who had their ear. It is so egregious, it either shows a severe lapse of judgement, or it's deliberately shipping the killer overtuned to sell. I don't want to male that accusation, but it's hard to see this being a harmless error.
I wouldn't even mind the latter so much, I get it, strength sells and first impressions matter... but that doesn't really fly if its obvious. There is a difference between being a little overtuned and just plain ridiculous, and this release is so busted it is indeed ridiculous, to the point it does more harm than good...
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008831#Comment_4008831
Yeah, let's talk about MFT.
While I'll admit this "got past the PTB" like the original person you quoted mentioned, the history and surrounding information about MFT is really not a good look.
It launched, and was around for about 6 months before getting gutted. During those 6 months, players screamed at the devs to change it. The most common complaints were:
A) "effectively free, permanent haste breaks the game"
B) "haste stacking is too strong, MFT+hope is broken".
So the devs listened, and nerfed the perk completely out of the meta. And since that patch, both of those main reasons have been proven to be complete lies and manipulation:
Haste was given to SM, trickster got a base kit 5%, and clown haste was buffed. And these were more than 3% haste values, defended by most of the same people. So 3% haste demonstrably doesn't "break the game".
Haste stacking was given it's own update to revamp and remove stacking across the board. All because the devs listened to feedback that haste stacking was "broken". Then, once they announced that it was universally being removed, people screamed again and asked them to keep it. So, apparently hate stacking doesn't break the game either.
So, essentially, a loud part of the community didn't like MFT, made up reasons to get it nerfed, was successful in getting the devs to listen, and then they screamed again at the devs for actually listened to what they said (haste is broken, stacking is broken), instead of listening to what they meant (please nerf MFT, I'll say anything to get it deleted).
Just to be clear, the 3% was devastating to a number of killers, the worst example being Doctor, who literally lost distance every time he used his power against MFT.
Huntress literally could not chase a survivor around a rock because she physically could not gain distance.
Every m1 killer got hit by that perk by allowing Survivors 20% more distance around every loop against a 4.6m/s killer.
There were many videos that tried to show MFT barely making a difference, and vast majority of them timed a Survivor running in a straight line. Anyone who understands DBD knows that a core mechanic of the game that was implemented accidently is that killers have a larger hitbox than Survivor and thus cannot hug tiles as close, therefore looping tight to tiles is what makes up the difference between Killer and Survivor speeds, so much so, that Bloodlust has to exist for many m1 killers to brute force Survivors to throw the pallet on a strong tile. We're feeling the power of just a flat permanent haste buff on looping with the Krasue now.
It astonishes me how many people defend MFT, and yet don't advocate for Huntresses' 3% slow hatchet add on to return, and were just as vocal about Skull Merchant's free 3% haste buff.
Modern MFT isn't even a bad perk, with an appropriate build MFT is a solid tool, especially when combined with the likes of Dead Hard or Off the Record, (when it's fixed) and it's synergy with WGLF or healing in general can be pretty clutch in a number of scenarios.
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Well there is the issue that strong effects on Survivor can be ran by all 4 people. Something strong on Survivor can get amplified by a factor of 4, and quite often these effects can be devastating for lower tier killers.
Whereas things that are overpowered for killer side are rarely overpowered for every killer, it's usually a couple of outliers in the roster things become a problem.
There is usually pretty strong outcry for things on the killer side as well, some recent examples including: -
- Pain Res and Pop being nerfed substantially.
- Ultimate Weapon being made borderline useless.
- Hex: Thrill of the Hunt getting quickly reverted.
- Skull Merchant getting utterly eviscerated and left in that state for almost a year encounting.
- Franklin's Demise being hard nerfed with no suitable replacement.
- The anti 3gen mechanic and the anti face camp mechanics.
The only thing that's been concerning to me lately is how often Killers get giga buffed off the PTB on the final day.
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If it's true that you've seen very few Krasue's, it will be because:
Nah seriously though, winning with her proves nothing, takes about as much effort eating a jaffa cake while visiting your Gran. This killer is straight K/D padding for anyone trying to defend how strong she is. 😏
I've seen like 3 Krasue's who weren't going balls to the wall hard, and actually tried to make a game of it. One of them even let us all go after smashing us with 3 gens left, while being the nicest killer you possibly could be. The rest seem to have severe inadequacy issues. 😅
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I must admit... it's a little rough playing Pig vs. WoO and Lithe atm... every time I crouch and lose sight of the Survivor for a second, they just dip and hold W to another pallet and almost always make it even if I guess correctly they're gonna do it... 🥺
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A Krasue really trying to win is near possible to beat unless the Survivor team is going full meta hard gen rush sweat... it's otherwise boring to play her cause its so easy.
In your average lobby. She has to play very very nicely for Survivors to have even a shred of a chance. She is very easy to play and yet is incredibly strong, all the strength of Blight, with none of the skill requirements.
- Infection is really easy, big AoE, auto aim.
- No slowdown or recovery on spit, non existent cooldown so even dodging it isn't rewarded.
- Can m1 or transition immediately after infection so a Survivor can't even have a second to react base on if they get infected or not.
- Is 4.8 in head form, just straight BL1 for free combined with a Scamper... which Chucky can't have at 4.4 apparently.
- Long lunge that can hug tech with a huge hitbox that can't be juked.
- Insane Map Mobility that is also hard to see her coming.
- Eating fungus has a significant slow, even if you pull it off, infection lingers on you for do long Krasue is hitting you long before you can cleanse it.
She is incredibly turn your brain off easy, there was no care at all buffing her from the PTB. I don't like to rag on BHVR, but this looks a lot like blatant buff yo the moon to sell.
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@09SHARKBOSS said:
chucky, the ghoul
i don't like winning as the game starts so I'm not even gonna buy the ghoul
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4007156#Comment_4007156
xbox or playstation? and dredge goes hard than you for the beautiful fact that dredge rulez
PS5 😁
Aye, Dredge is a boss... Maurice skin FTW 🤘
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4007253#Comment_4007253
You do know people can love things that are bad for the game right? Like I'm sure some people love tunneling AND camping.
I had a particular love for Old Legion AND Old Freddy myself, should we have kept those around for Love???And, Do you expect all the people who had problems with Myers to patch it with Love themselves?
Seems like an impossible task for BHVR to do that. Just love him mate. 😍♥️I don't agree he has lost identity either, he is still stealthy evil man who looks at you to kill you.
I know Identity is very subjective and will wary on your own perceptions of the Icon, but every game has to make some Ludonarrative compromises to make things fit, but also work as a game. So even I have to make concessions with my disbelief to accept the game.Thats fair, and of course all of this is highly subjective at the end of the day.
If you like new Myers that's great, but me? I just don't see Myers, and overhauling him completely resulted in many key parts of him that I really enjoyed being severely compromised for the sake of something that to be frank... doesn't impress me all that much.
To my mind the best parts of old Myers were: -
- Finding clever stalk locations from afar, especially when the audio cue caused survivors to look around, but were unable to spot you, and get summarily twitchy. This was also excellent for Survivor, making me nervous trying to spot him.
- The simplicity of his power that not only made him very accessible, but also made him synergistic with a large number of perks. He was very fun to build around, and gave a lot of surprise elements to his kit.
- The unique gameplay he offered where you were constantly on your toes because you weren't sure how much stalk he had, and had to watch out for his small TR on maps with LOS blockers.
- Large variety of playstyles based on what add-ons he took, that made working out which Myers you were against very engaging, and almost a mind game itself.
- Very faithful adaption of the movies (in some cases to a fault), that gave you a genuinely strong sense of playing Myers.s direct from Halloween 1&2.
The worst parts of Myers were: -
- Tombstone Piece being undeniably his best add-on, and largely unfair, boosting his threatening gameplay to a level where you couldn't realistically counter it in a lot of scenarios, and holding back any buffs because "Tombstone Piece exists".
- Extreme vulnerability to normal m1 killer counters, and suffering constantly from only 4 perk syndrome, which severely cramped how he could be played at higher MMRs.
- EW1 largely entirely pointless and a non factor for the character and his design.
Now admittedly they removed a lot of his problem elements with this rework... but they also removed all the things that were his best qualities too, bar maybe point 3, but even that has quite a few tells now so thats at least compromised if not removed too.
Myers doesn't scare me anymore when I play against him, he annoys me by waving his face at me until he starts dashing around tiles. He also doesn't make me feel like I'm playing Myers anymore; instead of being a malevolent being stalking from afar and waiting for my moment to strike, I'm a goomba waving my face at Survivors until I can start Chucky dashing round tiles... it's just such a let down compared to what he was.
The suggestions in the OP aren't ideal, but I'd take it as a compromise between old and new.
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4007135#Comment_4007135
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4007183#Comment_4007183
Okay so you say he has some issues, maybe he needs tweaks none of us can know that for sure, but if true BHVR will likely take a look at him if stats reveal him to be lacking.
But here is what I don't see, so how do we get from "new Myers have issues" to we need to reimplement some of his old kit in a compromise, because why exactly?? Why not just do some tweaks to his new kit? I mean the old stuff had its reasons to be removed right, why is there a need to tread old ground? That is my question.
I think the best argument for treading old ground is people loved Myers, even though he was weak. A lot of people already played Myers as he was, because of the love of the character. A lot of his mechanics were fun, even if not strong, which is something that is rare in DBD in this meta obsessed generation.
So he has been reworked... fine... but who is it exactly that the rework is actually for? Cause it isn’t the players who love him already... his identity has shifted quite drastically. It isn't the roleplayers, cause he looks pretty far from movie Myers now. It doesn't seem to be the meta crowd, cause he isn’t meta either, and he isn't gonna ever be made bonkers strong. It doesn't seem to be players looking for a unique and interesting playstyle, cause he feels like a weird mishmash of several killers, and arrived at something that feels kinda homogenous. BHVR have basically pulled off the wheel axel to fix a punctured tyre.
If it were up to me, I would switch back to old Myers, then:
- Add the stances as they are with Stalker mode and Pursuer mode with the switch on his secondary power button once "EW2" is unlocked.
- Stalker Mode has his old stalk bonus of 40m with 0.6S/s (Stalk per second) at 2m and 1S/s at 40m.
- Pursuer Mode has a fixed 0.6m/s stalk regardless of distance and is 16m TR with all the 20% buffs (break/stun/vault).
- Once Myers has filled his Stalk Meter, he can hold his secondary power to channel for 1s and become Evil Incarnate, and otherwise switch stance as normal.
- Evil Incarnate stance goes back to 32m TR, causes exposed for all Survivors and gains the extra 20% lunge. He cannot switch back to the other modes until his duration is up. He gains an empowered pallet pallet break (say 40% speed) on his secondary power that costs 15% of his Evil Within meter, with add-ons to reduce this cost. Have his new Execute added for death hook Survivors.
- Tombstone Piece is reworked, e.g. something like allowing his Execution on Death Hook Survivors in any stance for a cost of 50% Stalk.
- Judith Myers Tombstone remains the same as it was before.
In this version every aspect of his stances are useful, he is still very much Myers, but with some additional tools to help him out.
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4007055#Comment_4007055
That was my question, what is it that is bad and needs to be done something about`?
If it were my list:
- Stalk range is reduced to 32m meaning players cannot find good stalk angles without being much more obvious.
- Feeding off the previous point, stalk doesn't change with distance and the stationary stalk bonus is generally less optimal due to basically being the same stalk rate and survivors easily seeing you and breaking sight, and so Myers sits playing peekaboo round tiles, which looks goofy AF.
- The sound cues are kinda all over the place, even warning survivors they are being stalked so there is no point trying to sneaky stalk. The schlink of his knife feels tacky, as if Myers is showing off his knife before he uses it, which Myers doesn't do.
- Stalking in general is much faster, with none of the add-ons that make extend it/have tombstones to make Myers feel ominous and scary. He just wanders out, stalks in your face, then starts trying to Slaughtering Strike you. It's highly predictable and has no tension.
- Pursuer mode makes him an ordinary M1 killer with some slight stun/break/vault recovery buffs and a longer lunge, but then there is the Evil Incarnate mode with big dash. If the SS dash is good (its easy to stalk up and then instadown/break pallets), then Pursuer mode has little reason to exist. If SS sucks then Myers in general sucks cause Pursuer mode isnt gonna make up the difference.
- You can't even hold your stalk in Pursuer for the right moment to use both modes interchangeably, as not stalking for too long causes you to lose stalk, so you can't even tactically 99 the ability. If you charge it up you are forced to Pursuer mode, and are 24m TR with it, so saving it is pointless anyway, might as well just go.
- Slaughtering Strike is an M2 and removes a lot of his old perk synergies, restricting his build paths.
- Evil Incarnate lasts much less time overall as well, so you can just get ran pallet to pallet, and you're back to playing peekaboo again.
- Slaughtering Strike is basically just a Pig Dash with and instadown/pallet break tacked on, there is nothing new or unique about the ability that makes Myers feel unique or engaging to play. The only reason it beats Pig Dash is cause it breaks pallets, otherwise it has the same issues Pig Dash does.
Don't wanna just rag on the rework, but for better or worse, old Myers felt like Myers. This new version is weird. It doesn't play like Myers for killer, and it doesn't play like you're against Myers for Survivor. I'm disappointed on both fronts.
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I tend to find highly mobile/lethal killers just turn my brain off. I remember having a challenge for Blight, and bear in mind I'm on console, so its not that its easy... but, I loaded into the match and just... didn't care, I didn't want to play. Intelligence in the macro game is so non-existent for these killers that I genuinely just mentally checked out...
Ghoul was the same, and Dracula, and to a lesser extent Freddy bored me as well... I play Nurse on console with the Matchbox add-on, but she'd be in the same list.
Xenmorph, Dredge and Sadako I enjoy because they've got a little more going on for their mobility and macro control, it isn't free... but they're about as mobile as I go.
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@Mandy said:
Thanks for your feedback around this folks, we can confirm that the ability to crawl and recover at the same time with Tenacity perk will be back in a future update (sorry not exact ETA that I can share at the present time).
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@MashedBroccoli said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4006400#Comment_4006400
i posted my most recent stats and got called dishonest people just don’t want to believe killer is easy if you use your brain.
Just what to point out, this is the top 5 for both normal and high MMR.
Judging by this chart alone, a conservative guess would mean most killers are at a 60% kill rate, and the weakest killers are at 55% or lower. Could even go as low as 50% or 45% in some cases. How does characters like Ghost Face do at high MMR I wonder? Does he even have any games played in high MMR? That itself would be a pretty damning statistic.
This graphic provides very little information in reality, and if we were to really start picking it apart, which killers are usually played at high MMR? The killers we see here (barring Freddy who was just reworked at this time and an outlier). You also see more high level SWFs at high MMR, which means that your normal high MMR games are high tier killers vs. Organised Survivors.
48.2% escape rate against usually the best Killers in the game? I doubt even 80% of the roster can hope to hang here. Could Survibors at this level be looking at 55%? 60%? 70% for their escape rates against lower tier killers? We don't know cause vast majority of the data is missing...
Simple fact of DBD is the side that brings the strongest stuff tends to win, and in low to mid MMR, killers in my experience tend to take much better builds than Survivor.
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The give up mentality is a self fulfilling prophecy.
Players assume the game is lost, so proceed to guarantee they lose the game... while indeed burnout and frustration are factors... to my mind it is such a weak position to argue about game balance from when players aren't even willing to try and win, or at the very least, do as much as they can so their teammates can have a better chance of getting out alive.
The latter point is always what keeps me content in DBD. If I get tunneled, slugged, or bullied all game, I don't mind as long as my team are using it to create a good chance of getting out.
Dying the hero who turned a potential 4k into a 2k is better than dying as the guy who refused to try and condemned everyone to death.
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The primary difference of SoloQ and SWF is information. I don't believe its smart to flood Survivors with basekit auras to make up the difference, but I do think the HUD can be improved to bridge the gap.
At a minimum: -
- Overhaul the Survivor HUD to show perks that are in effect/active when a teammate is using them within the trial.
- Add the AFC to the HUD, along with effects like reassurance on a survivors sacrifice bar.
- Add markers for all conditions suffered by survivors (like it does broken).
I don't think showing all perks at all times is great, cause you have sandbaggers, griefers and people who will quir if the see certain perks, but a system needs to be introduced to show relevant perks to teammates.
Having active effects highlighted would be useful in lots of ways, such as seeing Distortion go off on a teammate shows the killer has Lethal Pursuer. Seeing Borrowed Time active or Autodidact would help make decisions regarding letting teammates unhook or heal. Seeing Deja Vu helps determine the Survivor to follow for breaking 3 gens. You get the idea.
The othwr changes are a similar vein, things that give you enough clues to know what is in effect in the trial, that SWF would just relay to each other.
An improved emote/radial message system would also help.
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Glad you like him, and glad people will still play him.
Myself… I have pretty much no interest in him anymore. Whenever I look at him waving around tiles for stalk and literally having no incentive to be sneaky with his stalk cause it's the same no matter where you are, I just feel sad. His last update made him so mixh better at realising the idea of Myers, I would have been content yo never even see a rework.
Everything now on him looks completely mechanical, at the loss of the soul of Myers. For people who don't really care and want him to be more viable, I'm sure that's great... but to people who loved the excellently realised horror icon he was? It's just a massive let down.
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@Ohyakno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4005660#Comment_4005660
While the change is ridiculous, let's be real. Nobody ran tenacity. It was a very very situational perk. They should have just added the new effects onto the old.
Brother, it was legit my favourite perk, and is criminally underrated.
Have you ever played against a Tenacity survivor? If you take longer than 15 seconds slugging, you have a pretty good chance to lose your slug completely, and that Survibor isnt slowed down, they've been recovering that entire time and are well on their way to getting picked up, so Survivor downtime is drastically reduced. This is a set of advantages that Unbreakable doesn't have.
You can also crawl away from walls underneath killers as they try to pick you up, and that will often mess up smart killers who try to face walls to avoid flashies and force them to check the area. I've legit had moments where I've bought 10 extra seconds or more just from crawling under a killers FOV, which ahs meant the difference of a pain res or a grim embrace block.
Combine it with Plot Twist, and you have a pretty decent little self heal that you can do while on the move to another objective while also being very hard to see/hear.... with some very unique properties that are surprisingly versatile... and you can also use it again at end game to prepare for gate.
Tenacity is a great perk, and I always miss it when I dont have it. I really want the old version back 🥺
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4005431#Comment_4005431
Me with Wake Up. They really love targeting these off-meta perks that aren't bothering anybody.
That one was bizarre... the justification was such a niche scenario that required so many things to go right to occur that it was kind of a throw to take both perks for...
The fact slugging for the 4k prevented it as well? Change made no sense... could have been any effect, like off the top of my head, if you want to prevent ratting, why not have it be one of solutions like:
- 15% at base and gain an additional 15% for each hook stage you have? That would be a decent perk, and reward you for taking chase.
- 10% at base and an additional 5% per stack up to a max of 6 stacks (40%) for every other Survivor you unhook/heal a health state? That would encourage you to be altruistic and help your team mates.
- 10% at base and an additional 10% for taking protection hits, which would then synergise with Pharmacy and again, encourage trying to help your teammates.
These would be diametrically opposed to the plan of Sole Survivor, and that's what Wake Up is meant to be, the altruistic gate open perk. Any of these realise the character of Quentin so much better.
It's the same thing for Tenacity, it need to keep it's identity... Tapp with a bleeding neck dragged himself out of that warehouse to save his life and keep the hunt for Jigsaw alive. Being able to recover while crawling is such a fitting feature for his perk... and it's not unfair at all...
Why can't we have nice things man? 😮💨
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I don't like the game doing it for me, I would prefer more agency while slugged, not less. Instead of this automatic recovery, personally I'd prefer it if it were a little more tactical, e.g.
- While moving or recovering you have normal grunts of pain.
- While staying still you make 30% quieter grunts of pain (3s stationary to activate).
Actually give slugged players something to do and play around. Doesn't have to be this, but things like this would be much more engaging.
That said the one thing I would like to automate is if I am recovering and a teammate heals me then let's go, carrying on my recovery without me having to.let go of the recicery button then press it again would be appreciated. I keep hold of the button subconsciously, and have at times forgotten to press it again to restart healing.
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Tenacity was my favourite perk... the recovery while crawling effect was the best part of it, and a great discourager to slugging, because you could reliably lose the killer if they insisted on slugging. I actually rate it better than Unbreakable because unlike UB, Tenacity is always available when you need it, as many times as you need it, and you can make it much less dangerous for a teammate to help you.... it was a healthy perk because it was entirely down to the killer if they wanted to leave you slugged.
It wasn't even meta, just a clever effect you could slot into specific builds. I ran it with Plot Twist, and used it to heal while on the move to objectives, and had several clever builds with things like FTP or Deliverance to begin healing progress while broken. It also allowed you to heal at end game to head to gate, or even force a pick up.
This combo had so many unique and clever use cases, and was genuinely innovative and fun to build around... please bring it back. 🥺🥺🥺
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@SpringMyTrap said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4005335#Comment_4005335
what?
demo is outdated, but he is a very good example of the BALANCED and FAIR killer. he is on the weaker end, but he represents the healthy balance between "killer has options" and "survivors have options".
the choices he and survivors make actually matter and he isnt insanely oppressive/OP to be unfair when he expresses HIS agency in the match by tunnelling or slugging.
the problem with him is that he is, well, outdated and powercrept by newer better killers even in the same jack of all trades niche even if these killers arent remotely harder to use. He is also massively powercrept by killers like blight, nurse, ghoul and now krasue who the game is BEING BALANCED AROUND, resulting into killers like him being inherently obsolete in the absurdly oppressive survivor perk meta made to keep up with S tier killers.
Damn, beat me to it, and said it better than I could...
The new benchmark for DBD is very concerning... Survivors got so much stronger, but no one noticed because of new A and S tiers non stop for the past year and a half.
We live in a world where Huntress is no longer considered A tier... AFTER getting buffed.
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What is even worse is the modern killers are all high mobility, high lethality, A tier monsters, and so Survivors keep getting more and more buffs to compensate, which help but aren't really enough... however those same buffs keep pushing the regular roster further and further into the dirt.
This is what happens when people only want buffs, and don't want nerfs. The Power Creep be creepin'...
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She was on the PTB for 3 weeks and was generally considered to be strong but mostly fair, a few things to iron out and clean up, but everyone was pretty happy with her.
Then on live:
Like Jesus man... what even is this? You would think she came into the PTB looking like a startled kitten with this buff list.
Like looking just the vault, the only nerf she has gotten: -
- Chucky Old Scamper was 1.4s.
- Legion (0.9s + 2.5s cd)
- Wesker (1s + 1.5s cd)
- Ghoul (1.5s +1.25s cd + 0.5s 50% hinder).
- Krasue is 1.6s with no cooldown...
This nerf is a nothing burger... she is still a monster at getting hits round loops. Her kit is now unbelievably strong with pretty much the only counter play being body blocking...
Good luck with that in SoloQ.
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@Rudjohns said:
Great, now I know which survivor to tunnel
You didn't before?
Tunneling is tunneling man... if you're tunneling you don't need the HUD to tell you... "run back to hook" or "Feng is on 2 stages", is much easier to remember than trying to remember every Survivors individual hook stages to try for 8 hooks 😅
Personally wasn't particularly wanting this change, as a preference I felt that tracking hook stages was a stimulating part of the killer game... but I'm not that married to the idea of keeping it hidden, and am largely benign to the change.
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What can be done about slugging?
The only thing I can see be added is crawl speed based on how long you are on the ground.
0-60 seconds – default 0,7 m/s.
60-120 seconds – Tenacity speed – 1,05 m/s.
120-180 seconds – 1,4 m/s.
180-240 seconds – 1,75 m/s.I still think the ability to get away from their initial slug location is the only thing slugged Survivors need to effectively combat slugging.
The way I would do it is once a Survivor has reached 60-95% or more of recovery progress (somewhere in that region), they can press and hold the sprint/rush button for 1s to enter the Desperation state, where they begin overexerting themselves to try and crawl away.
Desperation would add the following effects:
- 50% crawling speed.
- 50% louder grunts of pain.
- 75% faster bleedout.
Staying still for 5 seconds to recover from that overexertion ends Desperation and return to normal Dying again.
I feel this mechanic makes thematic and logical sense, and is satisfying to the horror theme, gives a little more agency and decision making to slugged Survivors, without being exploitable in any fashion, and encourages smart and tactile play over strong arming the killer. It may even allow a few lucky crawls for hatch when slugged for the 4k.
The only bit that would be sad, is this would have been a nice basekit mechanic vs. Old Knockout, if Knockout was still a thing... both the faster crawling and louder grunts of pain would have helped Survivors drastically. 🥺
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I demand a Boops Save Lives T-shirt.... pwetty please.
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There are quite few objective flaws to current Myers, I wouldn't quite say "he's great how he is", but I definitely agree that this update loses a big portion of what makes Myers the much beloved killer he is.
I believe there is some middle ground between the 2 that could definitely be struck... but I'm not a fan of how he is being changed... what's the point of making Myers viable if he doesn't look like Myers?
Still, I'm gonna try and keep an open mind, and if I hate the new set up as much as I think I might, I'll give an honest try of his Fragrent Tuft add-on... hopefully I can still keep the gameplay loop I used to love.
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There is a lot of good stuff there, I agree with a lot of it. My initial thoughts if stuff to mention: -
- Showing Survivor perks is fine, but they should only be revealed on the HUD when the game starts to avoid lobby dodging. It may also be nice to have the option to hide particular perk slots, so that people can't DC immediately just cause you brought Sole Survivor or Weaving Spiders. There are too many petty people to trust this feature flat.
- Unhooked Survivors being immune to killer m2 I assume takes the form of Mettle of Man? It's an interesting idea, amd does little to hurt the likes of Trapper, Myers, Ghost Face, even Legion to degree benefits, while the likes of Huntress, Pyramid Head, Dracula and Wesker get diminished.
- The pings idea is great, but voice chat for me is a solid nope, at least not without a very easily accessible option to mute everyone. I've played online games for 22 years, and very rarely has anyone had anything worthwhile to say in public voice chat. Usually it's people just pissing and moaning at you, making annoying noises, or telling you to shove it (in very colourful ways) if you try to suggest something constructive. There is also the issue I don't trust myself not to blow up at someone over comms for being a SoloQ dunce... right now I'm protected by the fact my rants about my amoeba brained teammates is safely locked behind a lack of voice comms.
- Not such a fan of contextual killer power behaviour, since it's a little inelegant a solution, but I understand the logic. Killer balance around these issues I feel is probably better to leave as a discussion about the strength of those killers directly, with very careful assessment of their traits... though your assessment of Oni was very pleasant and insightful to read.
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I do remember once going for a Sabotage challenges once, and I was thinking "Well, sabo saves will take forever... what if I make a noise maker build?".
So took Red Herring, Distraction, Sabotuer, Deception and Sabotage toolbox with extra charges. I would obviously do gens, but any time I had pebble charged I would throw it, and periodically I would sabo a hook, used Deception, vault a window, and throw out Red Herring when I got the chance.
I made 4/5 killers DC in a row 😶😶😶😶
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@ShanoaLegendaryPlz said:
While most focus on the lunge dash thing the part im most excited about is being able to switch between tier 1, tier 2, and tier 3 at any time. I use skull merchant allot for her on/off stealth with a stealth build since hers is timed after she drops a drone. I also loved old sadako for her on/off stealth but now its all about tv spamming. Myers however can turn on a permanent stealth and attack in it, any time he wants and then switch back to chase mode and even go right into the new t3 mode which will make him almost as effective as oni. He also permanently can kill survivors with standing or pickup moris in every round no addon or offering needed. Im looking forword to it.
True, this stance switch is pretty cool, though I'd like his old stalk system with this rather than the new system.
The problem of the old version of Myers was Evil Within 1 was pointless, as you wanted to get out of it ASAP to get to Evil Within 2 and start playing...
The problem of new Myers is Pursuer mode (EW2) is mostly pointless, because the plan now is to stalk in Stalker mode (EW1) and then switch to Evil Incarnate mode (EW3) for your slaughtering strike.
If you could stalk like normal in either Stalker or Pursuer Mode, maybe get the stalk bonus up to 40m long range in Stalker mode, and just allow a switching on command that would be fine. Allow pallet hits to break the pallet, but at the expense of say 10% of the EW3 bar.
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As with all technological advancements, the question is how it will be used.
People are familiar with one or two applications of generative AI for things such as art or animation, but the potential of the technology is not limited to that scope, and it would be highly presumptuous to assume what the role is for.
While it does raise an eyebrow, and voicing a concern about the implications for use of this technology in the known manners is not unreasonable... to get outraged about it is such a waste of energy and just making a mountain out of a molehill.
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@SoGo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4002312#Comment_4002312
Welp, there goes one of my mains.
While I don't wanna be a negative wheeler... decent chance I'm the same. I'll give it a go... but with what I've see thus far, I dont think the new gameplay style will offer me what I want out of the killer any more.
He may well be much stronger, but there are a lot of things that don't look right for the character. I might switch to playing Bubba more in his place.
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@HolyDarky said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003149#Comment_4003149
To your second point: Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, so please correct me if I'm wrong but the zoning part and the locker interaction are two different things. If Artist zones the survivor, then this means she is close to the survivor and aims for a direct hit. Therefore, there is no reason for the survivor to jump in a locker since they are not swarmed. The only time it is safe to jump in a locker is when you got swarmed from afar and that's the frustating/unbalanced part; It takes a lot of skill to snipe a survivor from afar but one locker to counter it. If this part gets removed or weakened, survivors can still counter a damage hit by dodging the second bird, which would also be more skillful.
The Garden of Rot addon (the exposing one) is a skill issue addon because it encourages the Artist player to not use her power for damage. Instead, it encourages the Artist player to swarm the survivor and walk behind them until the swarm is removed - no need to snipe with a second one. Beyond that, survivors only get exposed when they successfully repelled the swarm - locker does not count - and - again - a survivor will never jump in front of the Artist in a locker. A personal opinion, I don't like these type of exposing addons since they are either unhealthy, broken, useless, or stupid. Same issue has Iron Maiden: when you snipe from afar, it is so easy and free to jump in a locker and then the exposing part doesn't matter since Artist lacks the mobility to take advantage of it. lastly, it is not a good balance when your power that requires high skill and effort gets countered in such an easy way and a semi solution for this is a perk or specific combination. All this does is limiting the vvariety. In this case the perk/addon is not a solution and the issue remains but there are other examples like weaker killers need to use Bamboozle since there are still many strong windows in the game.
Ah, apologies I didnt mean to confuse, and to be fair, your point is well argued for why this should be removed that I do see your point, and don't entirely disagree with.
However, to explain what I meant, Artist has the ability to use a Sentry cut off loops, which is a great strength of hers, and she can also Snipe and she can Shotgun; she has a lot of different tools. Particularly with regard to her zoning capabilities (which come off the Sentry crows and the Shotgun), she can feel quit oppressive, and the only option a lot of the time is to accept the zone and try to beat her on the macro game.
Being able to clear crows with a locker however does give some niche scenarios where you have opportunities while looping to avoid a hit or clear to buy yourself extra time, particularly if you sacrifice a strong pallet to do it. Then of course there is her Garden of Rot add-on where there is no way of avoiding getting exposed, and instead you have to accept the crow tag instead... bit ofc you've already addressed this, so fair 😅
With regards to Iron Maiden, I wouldn't say Artist is reliant upon it, but it is an option/threat in her arsenal. I'd say it depends how you look at it, things like this can also open up build diversity. If UW wasn't giga nerfed, that would have been a good perk to combo, and there is Darkness Revealed that could make its way into an Artist build comfortably. Yes it won't quite rival something more meta like BBQ, but its a decent option, and I had a game yesterday as Artist where survivors hid a lot and Darkness Revelaed would have helped a lot. So Iron Maiden being a potentially more beneficial perk for you does also make other perks more appealing... and I do like it when different killers gives perks a functional place in the game. E.g. Stridor is bad, and will always be bad... except for Spirit. Thanataphobia is bad, except on Plague and Legion, etc.
That said, having thought about it, this locker counterplay option does discourage the use of the shotgun/snipe combos, which I would argue are the more skill oriented and fun play styles, which does mean Artist is encouraged more into the cut off tile playstyle that is much less interesting for everyone... so I do see the point.
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@HolyDarky said:
Hey, P100 Artist main here.
The built-in anti-camp-feature is overall fine. The main issue is that the feature even triggers when you hook a survivor the thrid time. You have to wait until the animation is over before you can place a crow nearby. On the PTB, survivors got a 25% gen-repair bonus when one survivor is dead before six hooks. This bonus triggered right after the hook animation - not after the hook becomes broken animation. Therefore, it would be possible to change it to make it more smooth.
Another issue is that the built-in anti-face-camp-feature is very inconsistent: Why have Artist and Dredge one but Bubba and Billy have nothing even though their power makes it much more difficult to rescue a survivor. If anything, it should be more consistent instead of punishing specific killers while other ones can use their power for free. It is also fair that it works in the endgame since a rescue still needs coordination and skill and Artist can still make a rescue difficult even with the feature. It also makes the endgame more interesting when a rescue is possible.
Prevent fast actions when swarmed.
No. If a survivor stops the repelling action, the swarm resets which is already huge. This feature encourages survivors to use their brain and make the decision between getting rid of the swarm or taking a risk by resetting it but as an exchange vaulting a good window/pallet.
The crows should no longer be removed by lockers if anything they should swarm the locker they get in.
Yes, it is an unhealthy interaction that the Artist player needs to make a high-skill snipe but it takes one locker to make it completely useless. Either survivors can no longer jump in a locker when swarmed or - in my opinion better - jumping in a locker still removes the swarm but you need to stay for eight seconds in it to remove the swarm. This would result in a fair reward for the Artist player while the survivor has to make the decision between jumping into a locker and staying in it for eight seconds or trying to dodge the second crow. This would be a fairer counterplay. In general, the locker-interaction is very inconsistent: For example, a survivor can avoid Doctor's blast when staying in a locker (no madness and/or scream) but not Sadako's condemned.
Hinder survivor a bit (if they can't do rushed actions this wouldn't be added)
No, this is not a feature/tweak/buff she needs. She also has an addon for it and would be better if this one would get a little buff instead of making basekit. However, what should become basekit (at least half) is severed tongue to make her smoother. Most of the time, she needs to hit survivors twice and therefore, should feel smoother and less punishing.
Agree on pretty much every point, especially regarding the improvements around the 3rd hook power block. Power block around hooks otherwise I think is fine, cause Artists crows are very versatile in general and she can still pose in effective threat. If she allowed to place it under hooks, there is literally 0 counterplay.
The only point I am not sure on is your suggestion to take away crows removed by lockers. Being able to jump in a locker to remove crows is I think a nice counterbalance to the fact Artist can zone so effectively; it gives an option back where many counterplay options are otherwise taken away from the Survivor.
There is also the point that Artist has builds that can counter this weakness, such as taking Iron Maiden combined with her Expose Iri, which gives some potentially interesting build considerations. On a killer that is still pretty darned strong and versatile, I don't think these weaknesses are unreasonable.
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I believe a lot of this debate comes down to how you interpret the objectives of each side. My interpretation of DBD is:
- The Survivor objective is to escape by any means necessary.
- The Killer objective is to kill all 4 Survivors before they can escape.
There is the caveat that as a horror fan, I do want to fear the killer, and I do want to be feared as the killer, so I do have some bias, but with this in mind, I tend towards the logic that opening the gate is the Survivor objective, and keeping it closed is the killer objective. Once gates are open we get scrambles that can swing results wildly as players act on very human instincts tied to the theme, but if players were to play a purely pragmatically (like they do in comp), the results of the trial are going to mostly be determined by when the gates open. Of your 5 possible outcomes 3/5 of them MUST result in the killer failing to hold to the gate, with a 3k without the gate opening only being possible thanks to hatch... and I think hatch throws this out of whack.
Rules as written, killing all 4 survivors is the killers objective. A 3k is considered a win for match making purposes, but the reality is a 3k can only at best be described a "lesser win", and at worst a "failure in preventing the gates from opening" if a Survivor gets out of a 5 gen powered gate. This is the killer NOT achieving their goal. Now in addition to this we also have the hatch, which also grants a 3k, even when the Survivors failed to power the gate... though this STILL can grant a gate escape if the killer finds hatch and closes it, which does seem a little unfair in this context, and this is why people slug for the 4k. However despite that, as someone who doesn't slug for the 4k, reading the rules of the trial as designed, a 3k is not a sign of a killer victory unless it is the more acceptable outcome of the survivor finding hatch. To truely win to my mind, a killer needs to hold the gate and get either 4k or a 3k hatch escape, and thus needs a reasonable chance of doing so... Within in that same breathe, I also believe a 2k can't really be called a draw at all, but an outright failure on the killers part to hold the gate... there is no hatch excuse on a 2k, you as the killer have undeniably failed to hold your objective.
To demonstrate this point, think of an simplified asym where you have 4 Knife players vs. 1 Gun player. You might be tempted to say "this is different because the killer doesn't die when they lose", but this is semantics, the goal of both games is to kill all 4 Knife/Survivor players. The penalty in DBD is less points and the Entity is disappointed to varying degress with you vs. you dying, but the point is still the same, you are punished for failing to kill all 4 players.
In our simplified asym, if kill rates were on average a 2k for the Gun player, that would mean they only win 1/5 of the time when they kill all 4 Knife players (a 4k). Knife players however, any of you that survive are victors, and this means the Knife side wins 4/5 scenarios, even if not all 4 Knife players are victors... you wouldn't turn to a Gun player here and say "well, you killed 3 of them before the last one got you, very well played, you basically won", no... he lost, and in this scenario he only wins 20% of the time. You'd need an absurdly high kill rate of something like 75% for the Gun player to have a 50% chance to win (I hate probability so am not inclined to do the full maths).
Now in practical terms a Gun vs. Knife in a 1vs1 should result in the Gun winning a significant majority of the time, kinda similar to DBD in fact, so to make it so we still have something to play for, we add an escape mechanic (hatch) for the Knife player. This is still the Gun player losing a strike on their kill rate, and is not considered a win for Knife, but Gun effectively "won" the game even without their final kill. This means that a good number of 3ks are likely hatch escapes, but it's still possible for 3ks to mean Gun player got killed... we still have this problem where the Gun side is failing the objective (> 60% of the time) more frequently than the Knife player side is on a 50% kill rate.
If hatch didn't exist at all, ironically there would be less reason to have a 50/50 kill rate, as the killer would need 4ks make up almost 40% of their game outcomes, as 3ks without hatch are not common. Despite that, I'd take the 50/50 argument a little more seriously in this context, because the difference of a 3k/4k (which is a whole extra kill to swing these stats we are so obsessed about) wouldn't hinge on a luck mechanic, and it would mean Killers win when they are winning most of the time, with only an odd scenario where they kill 3 players, that was close to becoming a 4k where they were genuinely beaten by the one remaining player... but since hatch exists, how can kill rates be objectively measured when we have this mechanic in the game? The killer has an additional means of losing a Survivor and lowering their kill rate, even when they are in a completely winning position...
Now there are a lot of reasons we have hatch, I'm not advocating for it's removal, as I feel it does more benefit than harm, but with this in mind 60% kill rate makes sense to me, as Survivors do have this additional escape mechanic. Yes there is slugging for the 4k, but that is a separate issue to kill rates, and a 60% killrate means that gates are opening roughly 50% of the time (0k, 1k, 2ks opens gates, 3ks and 4ks not)
All this is to say a 55-60% kill rate looks about right to me, though some killers sitting on 65%-70% kill rates is just plain not on to my book.
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The complaint I have about Knight is the guards can be countered by running along a window then vaulting it. The guard will not phase through it, and instead path around.
This is not intuitive at all and I'm sure this is a bug thats been left as a feature. For players who know, the guard is not really a threat at all, for the players who don't, he is quite frustrating to deal with.
I would prefer if guards had a slow (step through) and fast vault (phase), based on how the Survivor pathed them to the window so that normies have half a chance of figuring it out...
If not, then at least when a Survivor vaults, if the pathing for the guard doesn't track that same vault (because it's bugged/featured), marking that vault for 3s with a ghostly Entity block matching the Knights ethereal green would at least communicate that you've done it right, and again give normies half a chance of figuring it out.
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@Chilli_man2400 said:
Having a long lunge isn’t a dash killer
By your definition wraith and Sadako are dash killers
Any killer with coup de grace is a dash killer
It's not a lunge my man.
It's got a turn limit, a wind up time, and it has a range of 16m, which is larger than Chucky S&D, Wesker double bound, Dracula double bound.
It's more of a Dash than Pig's Ambush Dash, and we even call that a Dash, and besides that, it still doesn't change the point, this version of Myers doesn't play like Myers. We're back to Myers waddling around loops up close to stalk Survivors to then try and Pig Ambush around tiles.
Despite being one of the weaker killers in teh game, Myers is still one of the most popular, the reasons for which are something special... it's not being meta, it's not being able to do crazy hits at tiles... it's because he IS Myers, and this set of changes ruins that.
What's wrong for example with keeping the stance switch, but have his stalk work like before, but then giving him a pallet break on hisnlunge of his secondary killer power button that costs him maybe 1/8th of his EW to fast break a pallet like Hillbilly? Combined with Enduring, that makes Myers actually threatening and still feel like Myers... even more like Myers in fact, as a unstoppable power walking menace.
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Boil Over. The DBD equivalent of giving the killer a wet willy. 98% of the time it does basically nothing, but it sure as hell puts even the most philanthropic killer in a foul mood...
To my mind, it's like the reverse snoot boop... a declaration to the killer that this ######### is on and anything goes. You don't get to complain about ANYTHING the killer does if you run Boil Over.