UndeddJester
UndeddJester
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A big whirlpool you can fall into to take you back from the void would be an idea.
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I ran Genetic Limits with Hex: Third Seal the other day... just to see how many survivors were leaning too heavily on WoO and Lithe....
I felt bad... like I kicked a baby in the shins level bad...
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@AssortedSorting said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3824930#Comment_3824930
Fair, though if survivors ran the moment they heard the TR then ironically a larger TR would be better, as incidental brushing of the TR against them while the Pig does other stuff would ultimately make them less effective.
Then choose the most thematically fitting addon of those (the at revolves around crouch and/or ambush) to tack on too.
Mmmhmmm, yeah thats a reasonable point. I suppose where I fall is 28m would be nice for my particular playstyle, but yeah there is argument the other way.
In the grand scheme is probably not gonna help you much against voice comms teams regardless no matter where we fall… :D
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@AssortedSorting said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3824900#Comment_3824900
But also effectively nerfs any perks that works off of terror radius too.
And recall that the Pig isn’t standing still for 4m, they’re just traversing 0.6m/s slower.
The person that pointed out whispers does have a good point on how to better understand when you should crouch without revealing you’re nearby.
But I still think that if you want a lower TR from the standard on Pig, slap it on an addon.
Ah fair point, I was more pointing out the scenario of not crouching at all, but to argue in full faith yes, for crouching it's not a huge difference.
Regarding TR related perks it does slightly affect Infectious Fright negatively, but it does slightly benefit Hex: Face the Darkness… and a lot of other TR based perks aren't good on Amanda, so I'd say a buff to Face the Darkness is strongest of her TR based perks.
The problem with making it an add-on is Amanda is already quite perk and addon reliant, and is fighting quite heavily between her add-on slots. She is always lackluster is some capacity no matter what add-on combo you take. If you leave out: -
- Workshop Grease/Last Will - your ambushes are slow and easily held W against.
- John's Medical File - your map traversal and mind games at pallets are less effective.
- Tampered Timer/Gears/Ruleset No.2 - Head traps lack lethality you can reliably create pressure upon.
- Video Tape - Very susceptible to throwing the game on a single bad early chase.
You do need your add-ons on Amanda to really tighten the screw, and if her reduced TR is an add-on, it's gonna be hard for it to fight for a place in amongst her other far more consistently necessary add-ons.
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It would make crouching at the right time more viable, which makes it easier to play optimally without John's Medical File (much as I love that add-on). It also opens up Monitor and Abuse to become a 20m TR, which is actually pretty darned good with Piggy's small character profile…
Even without considering her crouch, 4 metres isn't chicken scratch, it's a whole second of survivor movement difference. Next time you play survivor run from a gen for 1 second… it's further than you think, and for Pig that is 0.86s seconds less reaction time for the survivor. Given this game is often a game of inches in reaching a pallet or not, or at the very least means 1 less extra loop a survivor can squeeze out, that 0.86s comes in more useful than you might think.
Also remember this is in all directions, so it gives you 8m of extra room to squeeze past/manouver around the map undetected.
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@BlackRabies said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3824123#Comment_3824123
It's most likely will be SpringTrap since he is the killer from FNAF and he's mostly the sole reason why all the other animatronics through out the series are haunted and/or programed to kill. Even killed his own kids unintentionally with his creations.
Agreed, I lost interest in FNAF after the first one, I felt the first had a budget game charm, that did a lot with the little it had to work with. The premise was simple, easy to understand and effective for what it was…
I'm not a fan of what the series became and I feel like the convoluted plot and paranormal rules kinda kills the original premise… kinda that rule of the mystery is more compelling than the answer… but I also can't argue with it's financial success.
I have since watched breakdowns of the story after it was announced for DBD, just to understand what exactly we were talking about/ dealing with, and yeah, Springtrap is the only person who even makes remote sense to be the killer for DBD…
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3824490#Comment_3824490
It’s not an oversight. Patch 7.4.0 was the major change patch, and patch 7.4.2 was very minor in comparison.
Also, when working with third party data, you need to show a data trend over time. You can’t just give us one data point, because you didn’t prove whether or not there is a data offset between the official data and the third party data.
Also, I don’t agree to disagree, because that is admitting both viewpoints might be valid. They aren’t. There was a small group of people claiming their opinions were more important than other people because of the number of hours they played, and they claimed they understood Trickster better than other people because of the number of hours they played, and they gave us a false story about a Trickster consensus. None of that is compelling.
In reality, dedication and devotion don’t have a good correlation to how well a person understands Trickster. And the number of hours played doesn’t have a good correlation to a player’s skill with Trickster. In fact, Trickster might be the best thing that has ever happened in a person’s life, and that still wouldn’t have a good correlation to how well that person understands Trickster.
Sure, you're right. No more discussion required.
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@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3824216#Comment_3824216
6 Chests
Of course there should be added more chest spawns and the killer belongings should be prioritized to not mess up with them.
The vault in the basement
They are meant to work like the keycard on nostromo, which you can search for and doing so grants you a purple or better item. I think it would also be cool if there were special items findable inside.
Flashlights
I can’t say whether or not my suggested numbers are too high, but blinding the killer while he is moving is almost impossible and with the buff the killer can still just look away.
Medkits
I think medkits are for both healing others and yourself. I really despise the nerf they did to medkits. The old ones were so much cooler and more fun and they just nuked them.
Survivors are meant to work together
That’s not how soloq works 90% of the time, but I’m also not a fan of being forced to use them for teammates. If I want to heal teammates faster, then I bring perks. Therefore I suggested having the purple one that does heal (you and mates) fast and has many charges, green that is for (self) healing 2times fast and yellow one to heal others fast since this is the lesser wanted effect.
Toolboxes
The only thing that irks me is that Commodius the best toolbox for everything
Well my idea was to make the other toolboxes better, so commodious isn’t the obvious choice anymore. It would still have many charges and be a bit of an allrounder, but not the best for either repairing or saboing.
I gave the yellow one a unique effect to not make it just a worse variant of the others and I gave Alex’s a new unique effect to give it a real advantage over commodious. I also increased the charges a bit since 16 is literally nothing.
Keys
“Base aura reading for chests” I think that is a good idea and I add it up there.
I'm not sure being able to spend the key to instant open a chest for an unknown item would be too valuable though
We all know the feeling of finding a key in a chest and most of the time we just want to get rid of it, which is basically my suggestion; Getting rid of the key fast to get a different potentially better item and if you got not what you wanted the first time, you can just use the key for the next chest to get a quick look into them.
Passages
My idea was to open up some Easter egg rooms or to unlock a STONG window for survivors or to get a beneficial shortcut for survivors. I haven’t added an interaction for the killer, because it should benefit the survivors and right now I have no idea why the killer would want to open them for example. Therefore I didn’t add an interaction for killers. Another reason for the idea with the black looks is that this could be way to integrate stronger windows/loops (not OP ones or infinites) into maps without making them always active. For example the window in the garden of joy main building window could be blocked that way, but be unlockable with the purple/iri key. Maybe the killer can do something to close it again and then you need to open it up again or so.
I think keys are meant to be something, that you need to modify to get the effects you want, that’s why I’m fine with them having no base effect. Maybe a nice base effect could be; when holding the power button, your scratch marks and pools of blood are hidden. What do you think?
I'd like the common version to have similar value to the iri, but have slower hatch opening times.
I’m not against that, but what would be the point of the purple key then?
Flash bang
I'd like to see these as usable items, though the drop flashbang inside the killers model needs to be fixed.
Isn’t that the only purpose of flash bangs? Aren’t they meant to be able to be dropped in the killers face to blind them while they look at walls.
Smoke bomb
I love them so much, hopefully they integrate them to the normal items.
Ax
still has that certain maps have problematic breakable walls issue
That’s why I made it only slow vaultable.
What do you think about the potions, ace in the whole rework and the other items ?I had to jump off the train so couldn't finish xD
Bottles/Glue/Oil Slick
I'm not sure on this it sounds in essence effectively the same as Clown's power, which I would be reluctant to give to survivors... it seems something that would be far more punishing to m1 killers than mobile lethal killers.
Bush suit
Hard to say, how would it react to auras? Hiding is generally frowned upon as the survivor already has the advantage of a TR to warn them, and a thrid person camera to stay out of sight.
If it could work, it sounds like it'd have the Trapper trap problem where it'd need to change to the map it's in to even have a chance of working.... and since we don't get that I don't see this being possible to work either sadly.
Placable Totems
Interesting, I'd actually kinda like to see somethimg like this in a greater Hex rework.
Potions/Serums
Sounds kinda wild... I'd be intrigues to see how this works out in a game mode or event first to get a grasp.
Ace in the Hole
I get the feeling this would be bug prone and hard to cleanly implement, and I suspect there would be some truly nasty combos to make this a gen rush nightmare.
Can you imagine a commodius with max charges and a BNP? This would be pretty ridonkulous of a combo... and I have a feeling it would be a SWF hard rush dream.
Kinda struggling for a better idea though, I guess Ace in the Hole is largely dependent of the wider rework of luck to find a place.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3824158#Comment_3824158
Tricksters knives are purposely designed for rapid fire gameplay. That’s why the hitbox is so small, it’s why the travel speed is so slow when considering the hitbox size, and why he throws knives from two different locations. This is also specifically done so that the knives are a battle of attrition, where the survivors are trying to dodge as many knives as possible, and try to time out the laceration meter.
Trickster’s knives are unreliable at mid range, even if the player has infinite skill in the game. Trickster’s knives would need to be redesigned if players are expected to have a higher accuracy requirement than current Trickster.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/ICTJP6R31828/image.jpeg
Also, we were given the above stats earlier this year, and Trickster’s pick rate was fine. The whole argument that “Trickster is unpopular to play as because people don’t like his rework”, is completely false. In fact, his pick rate went up with the rework, because he was easier to learn and use.
Every time I played pre-rework Trickster, I would think “Huntress would have gotten a hit there”, and “Huntress could have hit the survivor there”, and “Huntress could have gotten a hit there too”. Because when you have two killers that are supposed to carefully aim projectiles that work similarly.. and one of these killers has a projectile that only needs to hit once, has a much bigger hitbox, and is way more reliable to hit with, then what is the point of playing the weaker character? There wasn’t a point of playing pre-rework Trickster, and there wouldn’t be a point in playing any new version of Trickster that requires carefully aimed shots, because people would literally just be better off playing Huntress instead because she does that better.
I'll chalk that up as an oversight, rather than being deliberate… however considering these stats were posted 15th Feburary 2024, covering the months of January 13th - February 12th 2024, and Trickster's rework being November 28th 2023, with further updates 13th December 2023 (which were mostly buffs), that is not at all a fair comparison of Trickster's play rate, and to claim it is would be rather disingenuous igven his rework was new and after the Christmas break.
His rework was still new at that point in time with people still exploring and figuring him out. Also the stats are rounded so not really a good comparison. 3% could be 2.5% and would barely uptick over his normal play rate. That's hardly a resounding success of a rework.
To try and be more fair, in the 2022 stats he was 17/29, which basically puts him in the bottom 42% of killers.
@McDoobz said:
In June, we brought major changes to the game. At the time, we stated that one of the main objectives behind the meta-shifting perk overhaul and base gameplay changes was to improve the overall kill rate (how many Survivors are killed each trial, on average). As stated in our most recent stats post , we did achieve that goal and as you’ll see in the below graphs, the kill rate continues to hover around the 59% to 61% range (up from a 51% to 53% range).
In the context of this new meta, many of you have been expressing that you’d like to see where each killer’s kill rate now stands. So, we’ve compiled the most recent data to share with you.
We’ve created two charts to help you visualize and analyze these stats:
- The first chart represents the kill rate broken down by killer, for all players (all Matchmaking Ratings), for the period of September 2022.
- The second chart also represents the kill rate broken down by killer for the same period, but only for players in the top 5% MMR.
Some things to keep in mind as you consult these charts:
- We rounded up some of the kill rates to make the charts below easier to read (only values ≥ 0.95 were rounded up). Scroll past the charts for exact kill rate values for each data set.
- It’s worth noting that many factors are taken into account when it comes to balancing killer powers and character perks, not only data.
- As always, we are monitoring our overall game balance on an ongoing basis and taking your feedback into account when evaluating whether or not design changes should be made. So please keep sharing your thoughts and experiences with us! We read you daily and relay your feedback to the appropriate people on a regular basis.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/GOYEKDMA1XC3/microsoftteams-image-2873-29.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/QBAVCNOU4QO5/microsoftteams-image-2875-29.png
EXACT KILL RATE & PICK RATE VALUES BY MMR
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/LRXX3PMFOM90/tablekr3.png
We hope you enjoy studying these numbers as much as we do!
Until next time...
The Dead by Daylight team
Taking Nightlight for his modern pickrate, he is 2.11%, placing him at 24/37 in the killer list.
That puts him in on the edge of the bottom 2/3 of killers, at 35%. Now I could say that his pick rate is lower and his overall position in the roster is lower, therefore he is worse… but that would disingenuous because there are 8 more killers to pick from added, and the landscape of the game is very different since then. The reality is his pickrate hasn't really changed much positively or negatively.
So yes him being worse since his rework is not true…. but also your point of "he is more popular since his reworks" is also not true. He wasn't popular to begin with, and still isn't popular now.
At the end of the day, my point stands. Trickster is spammy and boring, and as such he is not a popular killer, and won't be whilstsoever he remains as he is. His kill rate is bad, but he cannot be meaningfully buffed because his relative skill is low, and to buff him would make him brain dead, so this is where he sits.
If you like that, fine, but the arguments posed by the Trickster mains who preferred accurate knives over spam, and want rewards for being accurate and deliberate with their knives are more compelling to me personally. So we'll have to agree to disagree.
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Chests
These have implications for certain killer power spawns such as Plague fountains and Pig Jigsaw Boxes so I wouldn't recommend going too nuts... however 4 chests seems reasonable since there are 4 survivors, with an extra one in basement. That sounds kinda cool.
Ace in the Hole basekit isn't the worst idea ever, as looter builds are pretty woefully underwhelming, though if we're reworking luck for better items the details in how luck is implemented is quite tricky. I attempted hit here:
@UndeddJester said:
Why rework chests?
Chests are something that I definitely believe should be in DBD... they allow clutch moments in SoloQ, such as finding a medkit to heal yourself before heading to gate, or finding a key to get out through hatch when all other options are exhausted... however the inescapable truth is that 99% of the time, taking the time to find and search one is a throw. They take too much time to find, too long to open, and the items are randomised, with random rarity and no add-ons, making the rewards for doing chests just not worth the effort.
Goal: Can they ever be meta?
The simple answer is no... not really. The time investment is almost never worth it compared to just doing gens in normal situations… this is a fact that would be almost impossible to change. Doing your objective will always be better than searching for an item to aid in doing your objective...
There is however one niche that chests can potentially fill... allowing you to hide your build in the lobby from the killer, and instead pull your item from a chest in the trial. With the prevalence of perks like Corrupt Intervention, Dead Man's Switch, Grim Embrace, Deadlock, having this niche is not as pathetic as it seems at first, but only if building for a loot set up was actually reliable and not too costly on time. This idea will be the goal of our rework.
For reference
- Unlocking chests takes 10 seconds at base.
- There are 4 tiers of item looting: Base, Plunderer's Instinct Tier 1, Plunderer's Instinct Tier 2, Plunderer's Instinct Tier 3.
- Chances of items looted from chests is set by rarity. From playtest data: 43% brown(2 items), 33% yellow(3), 16% green(6), 5% purple(5), 2% iri(2).
- Chances of items looted from chests with tier 3 Plunderer's Instinct from playtest data: 14% brown (2), 18% yellow(3), 22% green (6), 31% purple(5), 15% iri(2).
Proposed Luck Changes
- Luck no longer affects unhook chances.
- Luck now instead affects item rarity in chests.
- Luck has 4 tiers identical to the current effects of the tiers of Plunderer's Instinct, that can be raised or lowered by perks/effects.
- Items from chests have a 50% chance of having no add-ons, 50% chance to have 1 add-on, and a 0% chance of having 2 add-ons. Denoted as such:
- 0 = 50% 1 = 50%, 2 = 0% - Luck also affects the rarity of add-ons looted from chests, based on your current luck tier and identical to the tiers provided by Plunderer's Intinct.
Perks Reworks
Ace in the Hole
- Increases search speed of chests by 50/100/150% (6.67/5/4s).
- Items discovered via any means gain an addative 50% chance of having add ons.
- 0 = 0% 1 = 50%, 2 = 50% - Raises Luck by 1 tier.
Appraisal
- Unlocks the ability to rummage, no tokens, limited to once per chest.
- Rummaging through chests is now 50/100/150% faster (6.667/5/4s).
- Items and add-ons pulled are affected by Luck.
- Raises Luck by 1 tier.
Up The Ante
- Raises Luck by 3 tiers.
- Whenever searching or rummaging a chest, the item and any addons attached automatically go up an additional rarity tier (if it is able).
- Mad Cap Idea I'm throwing in for fun/giggles: If a maximum tier item is found, a special "Entity Essence Embued Item" (denoted by a black/orange background, and an orange glow on the item itself), which has the same properties as the top tier item, with an additional bonus on a select stats…. e.g.
- key duration +6s
- map range +2m / duration +5s
- flashlight increased aim accuracy +25%
- medkit +6 charges
- toolbox sabo speed + 25% (alex variant)
- toolbox +6 charges (engineer variant).
This item can be escaped with (the only way to acquire one)! Would be a fun/goofy thing for survivors to try for ^^
Plunderer's Instinct
- The auras of objects are revealed to you within 16/24/32m, including chests, items in chests or items dropped in the environment.
- Press the active ability button to consume an item in range (including flashbangs and expired items) to recharge 10/20/30% of your current item.
- Raises luck by 2 tiers.
Pharmacy
This perk activates whenever you are injured. While active:
- Auras of opened and unopened chests are revealed to you within 24m.
- Unlocks the ability to rummage, limited to once per chest.
- Searching/rummaging a chest guarantees a Medkit.
- Raises Luck by 2 tiers.
This perk deactivates for the rest of the trial after successfully searching/rummaging for a medkit while the perk is active.
Residual Manifest
- The first time searching/rummaging a chest guarantees a flashlight.
- After a successful killer blind, the killer suffers from the blindness status effect for 20/25/30 seconds.
- Raises Luck by 1 tier.
Scavenger
While holding a depleted toolbox Scavenger activates:
- Succeeding a Great repairing skillcheck grants 1 token, up to a max of 5 tokens.
- Unlocks the rummage action.
- Instead of granting an item, completing the rummage action in a chest will consume all tokens and replenish 5/15/30/60/100% of the toolbox.
When searching a chest for the first time without an item, Scavenger guarantees a Toolbox.
Slippery Meat
- The anti-camp killer detection range is increased by 8m.
- Charges 10% faster.
Dramaturgy
The item acquisition effect is changed to:
- Temporarily raises luck by 2, and any item acquired through Dramaturgy has an additional 25% chance to have an add on and is automatically increase by 1 rarity tier.
- 0 = 25% 1 = 50%, 2 = 25%.
- 0 = 0% 1 = 25% 2 = 75% with Ace in the Hole.
Offering Changes
Honestly we could do anything here. There are a lot of them, and they are all dedicated to self-unhook attempts… so these really need an overhaul. They are all luck themed and that "ward off evil" type thing… but if I just throw random stuff at them of top of my head…
- Chalk Pouch - All item chests start the trial 10% unlocked.
- Cream Chalk Pouch - All item chests start the trial 20% unlocked.
- Ivory Chalk Pouch - All item chests start the trial 30% unlocked.
- Salt Pouch - Items looted from chests gain and addative 5% chance of having add-ons
- 0 = 45% 1 = 50%, 2 = 5% base.
- 0 = 20% 1 = 50% 2 = 30% with Dramaturgy.
- 0 = 0% 1 = 45% 2 = 55% with Ace in the Hole.
- 0 = 0% 1 = 20% 2 = 80% with Dramaturgy and Ace In The Hole. - Black Salt Statuette - Items looted from chests gain an addative 10% chance of having add-ons
- 0 = 40% 1 = 50% 2 = 10% base.
- 0 = 15% 1 = 50% 2 = 35% with Dramaturgy.
- 0 = 0% 1 = 40% 2 = 60% with Ace in the Hole.
- 0 = 0% 1 = 15% 2 = 85% with Dramaturgy and Ace In The Hole. - Vigo's Jar of Salty Lips - Items looted from chests gain an addative 20% chance of having add-ons
- 0 = 30% 1 = 50%, 2 = 20% base.
- 0 = 5% 1 = 50% 2 = 45% with Dramaturgy.
- 0 = 0% 1 = 30% 2 = 70% with Ace in the Hole.
- 0 = 0% 1 = 5% 2 = 95% with Dramaturgy and Ace In The Hole.
These don't stack, the highest wins out. Could probably do something more interesting… but seriously what can be done with these really? :S
Conclusion
As stated before, this would not make chest builds meta… but they would at least have a niche, where survivors could grab items from chests as a means of circumventing killers taking hard counters to their builds, such as Lightborn or Franklin's.
Most builds would be pretty functional with a combination of any of item grabbing perks, in conjunction with any of the luck boosting perks, granting a decent chance of getting reasonably strong items. With Dramaturgy, Ace in the hole, and Appraisal all providing options for faster chest work, it makes them not a complete throw to use.
Builds could include: -
- A self heal build using Pharmacy and Ace in the Hole, maybe to try for a stypic or syringes and otherwise be able to get 2 medkits into a game consistently.
- A flashlight build with Residual Manifest and Ace in the Hole to grab a strong flashlight early and/or Plunderer's Instinct to be able to top it up.
- Scavenger and Plunderer's Instinct to line up a chest with an item then consume it if you're struggling for stacks. Can also consider appraisal for faster rummages. (This change also makes Scavenger a little less difficult to get value from if you can find chests promptly).
- Plunderer's Instinct With Appraisal to farm for charges on your item.
- Any of the above with Up the Ante if you want a specific item of high rarity.
- A pure looter build using Up the Ante and Ace in the Hole to get some kind of strong item if you want to roll the dice (very on brand for Ace).
- The pure madness of a Dramaturgy, Ace in the Hole, Up the Ante… yes… Dramaturgy and Up the Ante would stack their individual items rarity increases…. mother of God O.o
I feel like this would be my best shot at getting chests to not be a complete waste of time, and retain a somewhat meaningful purpose within the game. The fact you can reliably get decent items with these perks smuggled into the trial without a chance for the killer to counter, is offset by the fact you're not in perfect control of exactly what you get, and it otherwise leaves the chests as something you probably shouldn't do without a specific idea in mind.
If you read all this… have a cookie 🍪 cause Jeez… this was long. 😴
Basement
There are 2 chest spawn locations in basement, I don't see why both couldn't be there.
The vault idea is interesting, but in terms of what it actually gives you, that is the real question. Survivors need a reason to do it that is meaningful, and I think you're gonna be hard pushed to come up with something balanced/valuable enough to warrant the time investement.
Items
Flashlights
I get what you're saying for these, though it sounds a little like the old instablind flashlights, which were quite miserable for killers to face. A lot of the time you simply couldn't react fast enough to avoid blinds, and console killers especially would be very susceptible to this change. Killers would have to constantly look down to have a chance to react, which would just be annoying, and with Iron Will being the way it is this opens the door on some potential really nasty and punishing scenarios. For example pre-beaming a killer who has to break a god pallet would get the bonus blind speed as they move towards pallet, and the distance lost as they then still have to break the pallet iwpuld be insane, especially for less mobile killers. So while I understand the sentiment, I think it does more harm than good.
Medkits
I do think altruistic healing speeds and charges should be different. For example I don't understand why you couldn't have a purple medkit with 32 charges, but -50% self heal efficiency, so that it's better for altruistic healing for example. Self healing though is a powerful tool that should not really be buffed. The survivors are meant to work together for the most part and having medkits able to heal yourself while your teammates run off to do gens is certainly a strong buff to have that has had to be repeatedly nerfes for how fundamentally game altering it is.
Toolboxes
I think are mostly fine for sabos. Reducing the cost to sabo would be a change I'm a little indifferent to, would be happy either way.
The only thing that irks me is that Commodius the best toolbox for everything. It should have crap Sabo speed to compensate for how good it is at repairing gens. I'd also like to see Alex's toolbox get a small boost to repairs, in case you never get a chance to sabo, you can still use the toolbox to get some value from repairs.
I'd be reluctant to grant extra charges though because that makes them even more gen rushier than they already are.
Keys
I think they'd benefit from a base aura to read chests, since that makes sense for a key that would unlock chests. I'm not sure being able to spend the key to instant open a chest for an unknown item would be too valuable though, considering keys have some powerful auras if you use them properly. I'd probably just open the chest personally.
For the secret passages, can the killer interact with these? A bit like breakable walls, their use seems very niche and potentially difficult to account for in map design. My main issue with maps and keys is they are add-on dependent and it's pretty much use the iri or bust.
I'd like the common version to have similar value to the iri, but have slower hatch opening times.
Maps
Similar to keys, maps are actually quite decent if you use them to their fullest. They would help out newer players a lot if they were more available. I'd like your WoO ability on maps.
Firecrackers / Smoke Bombs / Axe
I'd like to see these as usable items, though the drop flashbang inside the killers model needs to be fixed.
There is potential in a smoke bomb. The event shows them to be pretty cool. I would however ask for a shorter duration, I've had a few smoke bombs that straight up have had me lost and stuck in terrain before, and really struggle to get out.
Axe is funny idea... still has that certain maps have problematic breakable walls issue, but assuming that wasn't a problem, that'd be fun... if not as items, as a perk 😅
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3823981#Comment_3823981
No. The majority of people think he's more fun to play as 4.6. There are millions of people in this world, and a small percentage of them that think he's more fun to play as 4.4, isn't enough to consider moving him back to 4.4. And again, there's not giant divisive thing here. It was just a few people that were loudly complaining about the rework over and over.
I'm adamant about rejecting anything that lowers Trickster's movement speed, or anything that raises the number of knives for a main event. Trickster's identity is rapid fire gameplay, and BHVR literally said this to us. And I'm still haven't seen an "accurate knives down" that isn't an overall nerf to the character.
…….You know what would be a real accurate knives bonus, that wasn't an overall nerf? Keep Trickster the same, except if Trickster gets 6 consecutive knives hit on the same survivor, then it takes off a health state. That way, people have an "accurate knife bonus" that brings him closer to the pre-rework, without nerfing current Trickster. Or have a new additional mechanic called "Trick Event", where if Trickster gets 6 consecutive knife hits, he can press a button to unlock basekit Trick Blades for 5 seconds.
And these new things can be added to current Trickster, without nerfing him, because the slow/accurate gameplay isn't optimal, and it wastes time, so it's fine to reward people that really want to have slow/accurate gameplay, because it's really just compensating Trickster players for purposely using sub-optimal gameplay.
But, above all, we really need to think of the average MMR killer, that isn't going to play perfectly, and will miss a lot more knives than an expert player would, because they need to have a character that's still good at their skill level. 4.6 Trickster with 8 knife main events, is the best scenario for the average MMR killer, and the revert suggestions I've seen other people make are really just going to hurt the average MMR killer.
Note: (And if the "6 consecutive knife hits" thing is too overtuned at close range, then add a minimum range requirement… Or a "minimum range requirement unless it's a special shot like through a hole in the environment".)
Trickster's identity is rapid fire gameplay, and BHVR literally said this to us
You hang on this point a lot, and OK, sure, but that does mean he can't ever get any meaningful buffs to make him strong or give him skill expression, cause his power is very forgiving and easy to use unless survivors play perfectly. That is the trade off every time for every killer. Low skill requirement means low skill ceiling.
If him just spamming knives and getting hits/downs through sheer attrition/brute force is the desired gameplay, he must always be weak because his power is woeful uninteractive. If you make him stronger with his knives, then he becomes oppressive, getting too much value for too little effort, i.e. the Skull Merchant problem.
This is basically the point about rewarding him for skillful and deliberate use of his power. Spraying Survivors down is kinda boring, that's why Trickster is unpopular. It's not like Huntress where dodging an axe is a rewarding mind game to play around for both sides, Trickster has no need for accuracy or dodging cause he just spams.
Sure 4.4 might not be the way to go, fair enough. The combo system I've mentioned could work perfectly fine with a Main Event that needs to be charged up through accurate use of knives, especially given he is a 4.6 killer now that can fall back on normal m1 gameplay if needed. A smart Trickster can hold his Main Event to pop it when they need it. That's a valid argument for 4.6.
However I don't think dying on the hill of "he's supposed to spam, so don't take away his ability to spam his ult, as this helps low accuracy players get downs consistently" is particularly helpful...
It is a direction... it doesn't mean it's a good one.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3823968#Comment_3823968
There's no "original Trickster playerbase" consensus. It's not real. It's not a thing. BHVR's recent Trickster feedback Reddit post proved this, and the comments are there for everyone to see.
This entire time, it was just a few people claiming there was a consensus. But it's not real.
But doesn't the fact there isn't a consensus and the fact he's still not popular mean a shake up of his power is still warranted? The fact he is so divisive surely means more ideas and thoughts should be expressed/explored, should it not?
So why exactly are you so adamant to shoot a Trickster revert and/or a bonus for accurate knives down?
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3823746#Comment_3823746
The base duration of main event is fine, so it’s not very punishing if Trickster isn’t granted extra duration via the combo system. But a lot of the suggested combo systems involve delaying main event if knives are missed, which is extremely more punishing than being denied extra main event duration. Furthermore, there are addons that increase main duration time, so players could just use those if they felt they weren’t hitting the combo meter bonuses often enough.
And no, it would absolutely not be more engaging to have less main events, since that is the only time Trickster has any base kit ability to deal with 2v1 situations, like a survivor that is trying to body block the person Trickster wants to chase.
Main Event is also the only time where Trickster can try to hit survivors at mid range, without needing to worry about knife consumption, because the knives are so unreliable at mid range that it’s understood that Trickster would be missing a lot of the knives. At mid range, Trickster has to spam knives because the knives aren’t reliable at that range, even if the player had infinite skill in the game.
Big combos in mid range, just don’t work, and punishing Trickster for missing knives just makes him unnecessary weak at mid range. And if a ranged character is only really good at close range, then what’s the point for him being a ranged character? Trickster needs mid range options, and currently frequent main events is it… And the giant pattern of all these suggested new combo systems, is that Trickster would be garbage at mid range.
The base duration of main event is fine, so it’s not very punishing if Trickster isn’t granted extra duration via the combo system. //...// Furthermore, there are addons that increase main duration time, so players could just use those if they felt they weren’t hitting the combo meter bonuses often enough.
But let me ask you this... if succeeding or failing at the combo system doesn't make much difference... is there even a point in having it? Why does it exist if its entirely superfluous whether it is successfully used or not? If it really does nothing of significantly value, just remove it from his kit entirely.
But a lot of the suggested combo systems involve delaying main event if knives are missed, which is extremely more punishing than being denied extra main event duration. //...//
And no, it would absolutely not be more engaging to have less main events, since that is the only time Trickster has any base kit ability to deal with 2v1 situations, like a survivor that is trying to body block the person Trickster wants to chase.
I don't believe the suggestion I shared does that. The suggestion I shared doesn't delay his Main Event for missing Knives any more so than the current system does. The argument centres on if it gives him significant bonuses that are good enough if he does land combos.
Old Trickster has a larger number of knives to charge his Main Event in this setup in his original configuration, but in exchange has a more powerful Main Event power when he does get it, and with this suggestion he gets additional stats bonuses to make it count. The concept isn’t sonething that doesnt have value to consider. Giving this power to him as he now actually makea more sense, since he's also now a 4.6 killer, so it's entirely within his control to stack to 23 knives for his combo bonuses, then catch a survivor with his 4.6 m1 and have Main Event ready to pop on the next survivor, similar to how Myers does now with EW3. It doesn't seem to be something infeasible to use effectively.
Most Trickster suggestions I've seen generally have been split by 4.6 = 8 knives, 4.4 = 6 knives. The combo meter is often a cool after thought added for good knife discipline.
Main Event is also the only time where Trickster can try to hit survivors at mid range, without needing to worry about knife consumption, because the knives are so unreliable at mid range that it’s understood that Trickster would be missing a lot of the knives. At mid range, Trickster has to spam knives because the knives aren’t reliable at that range, even if the player had infinite skill in the game.
The reason I'm not on board with what you're saying, is the original Trickster playerbase managed to be accurate with knives, and that was even with the recoil AND him being a 4.4m/s killer and having a harder time positioning. It's often cited from reading what former Trickster mains have said that the secret to Trickster was understanding when to pull up your knives to allow you to be accurate, more than aiming them super accurately at distance, which a number of them proved with doing it on console. This can only be easier to do now Trickster is a 4.6 killer, and had to be tempered by the need to land 8 shots instead of 6 as described above.
There have been/are add-ons that focus on you being accurate to recover your knives for successful hits or giving you haste for consecutive hits... it's seems like it's not something that's as impossible as you say, just it seems to me to require a different mentality...
To me it sounds like you prefer the spammy playstyle, which is fine, but the original Trickster playerbase does not, and Trickster isn't any more popular than he was before, so we're basically deciding which set of players to be catered to.
To play Devils Advocate, its quite evident you didn't like old Trickster, and you like new Trickster. That's fine, but how you feel about Trickster being potentially reverted is how his original fans felt when he became what he is now... so why is your claim to what he should be more valid than theirs?
Especially considering he is no more popular than he was before, and a number of them put in far more time to original Trickster than it would be possible for you to do on modern Trickster given the time frames involved...
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3823547#Comment_3823547
BHVR could add music to Trickster's current combo mode, without reworking how the combo system works.
But unless BHVR wants to completely rework how knives work, to allow them to be guarantee hits at mid range if they are aimed perfectly, then it would be terrible to punish killers for missing hits. Because as the knives are now, they aren't reliable at mid range, and it's not a "maybe I could make it work if I practiced more" or "maybe I could make it work if I had more skill", it's literally "this doesn't work even if the Trickster player was magically granted infinite skill in the game.
Also, Trickster had zero identity when he was a 4.4 killer that is supposed to careful aim knives, because Huntress does that better. The entire point of making Trickster 4.6, and giving him much more frequent main events, was to give Trickster his own identity as a rapid fire killer. And current Trickster is the only rapid fire killer in the game, and reverting him would completely remove that playstyle from the game.
Fair point, him having his own identity is not something I disagree with.
Though to be fair, you seem pretty quick to denounce the proposed combo system, but are also happy with the current combo system?:
Combo Bonuses:
- E Combo: +0.5 seconds
- D Combo: +1 second
- C Combo: +1.5 seconds
- B Combo: +2 seconds
- A Combo: +2.5 seconds
- S Combo: +3 seconds
Combo Thresholds:
This refers to on how many consecutive Blade Hits are needed to reach each Combo Rank.
- E Combo: 2 Blades
- D Combo: 3 Blades
- C Combo: 4 Blades
- B Combo: 5 Blades
- A Combo: 6 Blades
- S Combo: 8 Blades
The current combo system is worse is it not? You're punished with a shorter duration on Main Event if you don't land consecutive hits, and there is no buffer for missed hits on this either, so isn't this worse? Of course the reality is the extra duration often doesn't help you anyway unless you're in a dead zone or camping a hook... so isn't this current combo system rather unhealthy?
This seems to hint that having to land consecutive rapid fire hits is meant to be a part of Trickster's identity already... except the Main Event is primarily just an ammo saving tool right now that you use to spam to save your ammo cause it's so spammabale.
Like even if you dont revert Trickster, would it be more engaging to take longer to get Main Event, but he becomes a Plague level wrecking machine when he gets it?
I would also imagine with his 4.6 speed being able to position to keep scoring hits consistent hits for a Combo wouldn't be too hard compared to old Trickster.
Also regardless the combo needs to be displayed on his HUD better.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3823383#Comment_3823383
The problem and discussion of Trickster is that a few people were spamming posts, claiming there was a Trickster consensus, and they agreed pre-rework Trickster was better. They were also repeatedly telling us how many hours they’ve played the game, or how dedicated they are to this killer, as if that makes them an authority figure.
And no, giving us a margin of error for the combo meter doesn’t work either. Trickster should never be punished for missing knives because his identity is supposed to be rapid fire gameplay, and asking people to slowly aim every shot completely goes against his identity. The current Trickster already has a combo meter that rewards consecutive shots, and that is perfectly as far as a combo meter should go.
Sure. Personally I consider just pulling up knives and spamming survivors to death kinda boring myself, regardless of whether you succeed or fail. I've not really seen a huge influx of Trickster since the rework... and lot of his original fanbase has kinda drifted off as well... I'd say he functional, but he's kinda dull.
I just thought the combo meter, building to an empowered mode with some awesome music playing based on his combo scores was a cool idea that added some interesting things that would make him a little more fun and engaging to play. A bit like how Legion is fun to play with all the different tunes they play with the various tapes.
Would have preferred it if there were elements of it that might be worth considered for discussion, but I guess not. 😒
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3823298#Comment_3823298
That entire idea doesn't work, because 100% accuracy with Trickster's knives isn't a skill based task, because that's not how his power works. Trickster's knives have a very small hitbox, and their travel speed is so slow, that even if BHVR programmed an aimbot that aimed every knife perfectly, Trickster still wouldn't get 100% accuracy against a survivor that knows how to dodge the knives, if the survivor isn't in close range.
Trickster isn't even supposed to try for 100% accuracy if the survivor farther than close range, and instead is supposed to repeatedly turn his camera left/right, to throw the knives in a small spread, similar to what Plague does with her puke when the survivors aren't close to her….. And that is a good comparison. Asking for 100% accuracy with Trickster, would be like asking for 100% accuracy with Plague's puke. Even with infinite skill, it's not a realistic goal.
Also, because of the recent Reddit Trickster feedback post, we now have proof that there never was a Trickster consensus, and that way more people think he's more fun to play as, when he's 4.6.
It isn't 100% accurate, its afforded a miss between each stack, so as long as you land every other knife, you keep building a combo.
Let's not forget, that this is buff over old Trickster where his Main Event is more common at 24 knives, and if you only hit 3 knives in 6 in my version and you're still getting a small bonus.
Though I must admit, I personally feel like it's a little too harsh at 2 stacks, but I'm not a Trickster Main. Personally I'd drop the combo every 3rd missed knife, but I dunno how often realistically a Trickster main would be reaching S combo or not. I'd possibly even have a combo ender when laceration begins. This makes camping hooks a less effective method, as if just one of the survivors eats a knife, to block a hit, the combo is gonna be ended prematurely. This adds counterplay for Survivors more than just run between walls.
The problem and discussion around Trickster is he has never been engaging to face as a survivor. If you dodge a knife or win a mind game, so what? There's another knife coming immediately behind it. You just run from him trying to keep walls between you and him, and survive as long as possible, never playing tiles or trying to bait a shot.
This combo system adds a layer of value to dodging hits, since just spamming a survivor down doesn't play into building your Main Event.
All that said, even if you scrap the combo system, or purely make it an aesthetic thing, having Main Event pop and you become something a little like Plague where you're a monster with a unique TR/glow for a brief time that who wants to go out and make use of it while you have it would be really cool. Something like.
- Main Event charged duration is 30s.
- Main Event charged grants 10% haste for the duration.
- Main Event charged duration pauses while carrying a survivor.
- Main Event charged grants Killer Instinct for 6s on any survivor that hears the TR for the first time. Maybe pauses the decay for 6s.
The idea has some interesting options to explore for old Trickster.
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With the revert, I rather liked Revvium's ideas for Trickster, especially the combo system.
@Revvium said:
Hello! I'm Revvium, a 1000+ hour Trickster Main and I obsess over this character enough to devote countless hours to his theory crafting and hopefully his future success, I am constantly streaming this character for 10+ hrs a day on my Twitch channel and all i really want out of the future of him is what all of my fellow Trickster players want out of him, the Ji-woon that he was always meant to be.
I've collected feedback from countless Trickster players across my time ranging from Experienced to Beginner and I'd like to share a version of the Killer that accentuates a Trickster that is FUN and exciting, but also a Trickster that people find accessible and welcoming to start with that allows for multiple playstyles, which is something I enjoy about the newest killer "The Unknown" so much.
This is sloppily written, I'm terrible at formatting but I want to speak my thoughts on Trickster, Trickster has been my love and joy for at this point a majority of my time playing DBD. I fell in love with the original since his inception, across his entire existence he's been a point of heated debate due to his volatile nature. I've sought over the course of my time with the character to find a medium that appeals to entry-level as well as the high-end playerbase. With all of that said these changes are my dream rework for The Trickster.BASEKIT
- 4.4 m/s
- 5 knives to injure
- 60 ammo
- 3-4 ramping throwrate 3.68 - 3.06m/s
- 1.33x multiplier main event
- base duration main event 6 seconds
- 24 Meter Terror radius
- 40 meter lullaby
- 24 knives to activate main event
MAIN EVENT
- Global audio trigger (oni style but musical) when a high combo main event is ready, (Visual on trickster that hes being buffed by combo atm)
COMBO SYSTEM
- If you land a knife past 24 meters - 2x multiplier APPLIES TO LACERATION DMG AND COMBO METER
- If you land a shot through a narrow hole (use an invisible "ALL KNIFE CONTACT POINTS ARE SURROUNDED CYLINDER" detection hitbox for coding - think similar to nemesis whip hitbox detection, but to add a bonus instead of verify if it hit) - 2x multiplier APPLIES TO LACERATION DMG AND COMBO METER - This is a dream mechanic that is more meant to symbolize the interest in rewarding "hole shot" gameplay however i would like to see a spiritual stand in here if this is not possible.
- 2 misses ends the combo and "LOCKS IT IN" visual indicator would provide you with the status of your combo which is spent on the next main event
- COMBO METER (GETS MORE AUDIBLY INTENSE MUSIC AS THE COMBO GOES UP)
20 second activation window (current is 30 sec. before main event fades)
- ~Passive values impact movespeed until next main event finishes OR times out due to not being used~
S- 16(passive 10% haste + 10% action speed bonus action speed if locked in or at current rank)- 6 seconds duration Main event 1.66x + 1 bounce
A- 14(passive 8% haste + 8% action speed bonus action speed if locked in or at current rank) - 5 seconds duration Main event 1.44x + 1 bounce
B- 10(passive 6% haste + 6% action speed bonus action speed if locked in or at current rank) - 4 seconds duration
C- 6(passive 4% haste + 4% action speed bonus action speed if locked in or at current rank) - 3 seconds duration
D- 4(passive 2% haste + 2% action speed bonus if locked in or at current rank) - 2 seconds duration
LACERATION METER:
- Laceration decay 1 "segment" every 10 seconds, starts after 2 seconds of not getting hit by a knife (to give survivors a more dynamic experience where they can visually see laceration fall of of them)
- Each laceration instead goes away upon it reaching the END of its ticmark instead of immediately losing a knife in value whenever it starts (as it does now)
ADDONS:
- ALBUM ADDONS CHANGE TUNE OF LULLABY AND ALL HAVE AN ADDITIONAL "MODE" ASSOCIATED WITH A COMBO
- Reload death throes compilation return (ammo replenished upon main event ending)
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/K4HBKNBM5WQB/image.png
- Photocard reworked to buff the combo meter system by 50% (all haste + action speed including passive) (1.5x haste bonus +action speed and main event duration bonuses)
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/JYYTEMDGZZCB/image.png
- Cut thru single is unchanged BUT added C-tier combo modifier: hits during a B or higher combo'd main event hit for 150% instead of 50%
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/CY4ASTN5JO94/image.png
- Diamond Cufflinks is unchanged BUT added D-tier Combo bonus to main event that aura reads anyone hit during main event for 6 seconds (current DTC aura read)
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/97GH6B0T1OAA/image.png
- Edge of Revival is unchanged BUT can contribute to combo added B-tier combo bonus to main event that explodes in a 30% larger area
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/6P15H5PNCGMT/image.png
- Trick Blades is unchanged BUT added S-tier (RARE TO GET) combo bonus to add an additional bounce to main event (this would be 4 bounces in total)
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/CB01P7US2WK4/image.png
- Bloody Boa is 16 knives instead of 8
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/FI4FM6HNDJOG/image.png
- Fizz spin soda - REVERT, reduces the knives required to reach full "ramp up" by 2
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/8EPCFTX1IL9D/image.png
- Melodious Murder -unchanged
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/3GFCQBY096O7/image.png
- Ripper Brace - REWORK, Main Event activation window duration (when you have the passive haste + action speed from combo) increased by 10 seconds
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/1TODLNWKFLUB/image.png
- Waiting for you Watch - REWORK, TOO MANY MAIN EVENT ADDONS - when survivors laceration meter hits 0, they scream and interrupt their current action and have their aura read for 6 seconds
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/8QOCLORCAFER/image.png
- Caged Heart Shoes - REWORK, Encourages self-destructive gameplay and backrevving (not fun for survivors) - Lacerating a survivor in main event gives a 10% haste bonus for 2 seconds
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/ZGXP9YNQLTBO/image.png
- Ji-woons autograph - REVERT reduces the knives required ot reach full "ramp up" by 1
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/J139MF7WN1LM/image.png
- Lucky Blade - REWORK, TOO MANY MAIN EVENT ADDONS - when survivors laceration meter hits 0, they become oblivious for 20 seconds
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/YA4LCWJOF7ED/image.png
- On-target-single - REWORK, Main event activation window duration (when you have the passive haste + action speed from combo) increased by 5 seconds
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/WDUFWNPFFL9Y/image.png
- Tequila Moonrock - Unchanged (note- putting more into combo system which this affects adds a buff to this which offsets the nerf to how often you see main event)
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/R7Z9I5U2DERA/image.png
- Inferno Wires - REWORK, TOO MANY MAIN EVENT ADDONS - During Main Events activation window - Action speed is increased by 30% (helps with shack)
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/C56W7NCXKKY9/image.png
- Killing part Chords - REWORK, currently redundant and boring - Lacerating a survivor during main event gives a 5% haste bonus for 2 seconds
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/WFXKC5BPLK3P/image.png
- Memento Blades - Increases lacerations required to injure survivors by 4, Increases throwrate by 50%: 4.5KPS-6KPS (NOTE: similar math but inefficient ammo if people want a rapid style but are ok with the cost)
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/UQL0Z2IT0QZI/image.png
- Trick Pouch is 10 knives instead of 4
I know this is all a lot to take in and I just want to say i've spent so much of my recent time with this character and being heartbroken at his current version because it heavily incentivizes M1ing as a "solution" to his bad tile situations, I think modern day photocard has really opened my eyes and showed me that it's possible to have a 4.4 trickster that truly feels special and is about his POWER instead of his ability to zone you into his m1.
I love the knives, you love the knives- WE LOVE THE KNIVES. Lets get Trickster into a state where our lovely knife slinging boy is himself again.
Thank you for reading, I'm hoping for the best. COOK WELL DEVS I AM SO NERVOUS! - Revvium <3 😰Revvium is (or at least appears to be) a highly skilled player though, so the combo system is quite reserved and focuses various Trickshots to be able to tap into his power, and a number of cool features... you can read in full if you're interested, and I recommend it cause it's good (the only questionable part the laceration decay).
However for a streamlined version, the highlight for me was the combo system, a bit like the Devil May Cry combo multipliers. When Main Event is charged have Trickster glow, like Plague or Oni does with their power, and and have more ramped up audio to his Terror Radius based on his current best combo.
This is the stripped down version lot of the more intricate ideas stripped out to get the idea across and to keep it simple to understand. Basically old Trickster, but: -
- Main Event requires 24 knives to charge.
- Main Event remains charged for 20s.
- Main Event has a base duration of 6 seconds.
- Combo system - Whenever the Trickster misses 2 knives consecutively he breaks his combo chain.
- Combo system - Unbroken chains grant ratings for from D(4) - C(6) - B(10) - A(14) - S(16)
- Combo system - While Main Event is charged/active, each rating grants an incremental +2% haste +2% action speed increase. Extra bounce and faster throw speed for A and S ranks.
This gives Trickster a unique flavour to play, encourages going for accurate knifes rather than unga bunga spamming, and it actually makes juking knives for survivors worthwhile to deny his combo power ramp up. What's really nice is getting a charged main event also serves to help Trickster traverse the map, even if you don't get to use Main Event it still helps you get back in chase....
With that in mind, I would personally stick with Main Event charged duration at 30s, and might also recommend a pause on the activation window during pick up.
Maybe even Killer Instinct for 5 seconds the first time each survivor hears his Main Event TR for the first time. I'd also consider dropping the knife combos to D(3) - C(6) - B(9) - A(12) - S(15), just so console/newer players can feasibly reach A rank more often.
However this combo system to encourage accuracy seems a very good direction to me.
- 4.4 m/s
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@CautionaryMary said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3822524#Comment_3822524
Lmao, Doctor is rough as he can cancel the door being opened. 😂
That's insane that all of that happened during your game with Doctor, however. 😭 Was Sable working on her own door during the time Mikaela was 99ing hers? Definitely could have managed to open the door, especially if Sable was on the other end and it was being shown on the hud. Luckily mine was a 2k and not a 3k-4k lol.
Ye Sable was slightly behind me and Mikaela. The timing would have been perfect for all of us to escape. Can't fault the Sable at all...
Be wary of SoloQ
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@CautionaryMary said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/430190/share-your-open-the-damn-gate-stories
I had a Nancy try to heal me at the gate while Myers downed Nea right at the exit gate, me pointing at the gate, her spinning circles at said gate, and me having to open the gate with us almost dying.
Here is a clip if anyone is interested - I was duo SWFing with a friend.
https://youtu.be/r3IfIVFMccI?si=4UxiPjW2SdkIeLiL
That video gave me flashbacks to my Doctor game xD
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I literally threw some of my favourite perks into a build after this thread without a thought to synergy...
And shockingly I keep getting insane value out of it 😶😶😶
Lucky Star - is now an absolutely solid perk... gives you Iron Will on demand for 30s, allows you to find teammates on demand to help you heal/reset, actually good at hiding in lockers, helps you find gens on maps like Midwich... I liked it before its buff... and now it's just awesome 😶
Empathic Connection - Loved building around this perk. Autodidact and Empathy was a buld I really enjoyed... but now it's heal is too good for Autodidact (dammit!), but it really helps SoloQ out, and with Lucky Star as nice 2 way aura reading.
Borrowed Time - I swear everyone sleeps on this perk... it's insane the number of times I stall out a camp from the killer and unhook once it's costly for them to try and tunnel... only for the killer to come back anyway and eat a Borrowed Time... It's also really nice with Empathic Connection now, as you can usually heal without much fear.
Quick and Quiet - Fun to mind game with, can come in pretty clutch at certain moments to fake out the killer. Also synergises nice with Lucky Star. I've been having a blast with this perk.
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I've seen far more killers goofing off in this event. Lots of memes and fun to be had. Seems to have brought out the better side of the community.
When it comes to serious games, the event has been great. The void actually has some semi decent pallets and loops, and often turns what would normally be a complete dead zone into something you can actually try and play... and guess what, we're still playing DBD in the void rather than basic m1 killer with no power BS.
Then the shattered vials are actually pretty strong, and allow for some very unique and fun mind games that tend to mess with stronger killers than weaker ones. I've faked a few teleports by running to a portal and vialing, then just not moving.
I'd say the event is great myself. However you know... everyone has got to complain. 🫠
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@LapisInfernalis said:
I had a similar situation as you but with Blood Warden as a cherry on top.
I also looped the killer pretty long and after all gens are completed, I run injured, with the killer still behind me, to a gate which is 99ed (the other one was far away and half way done). A Claudette just waits in front of the switch and doesn't tank a hit, doesn't move or opens the gate when she sees me with the killer coming. I get downed, then she opens the gate, we get Blood Warden and a 0k becomes a 4k.
That Claudette said in chat that she didn't open the gate because I "did not do enough gens".
It hurts man 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Getting these vibes xD
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I bought the new void Kate skin...
I think killers like me... I get chosen for the Finisher Mori's often xD
@MrMori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3821929#Comment_3821929
Yeah, that's been suggested. Specifically if everyone else is hooked and second stage, the last standing survivor can be mori'd. So you don't rob people of self unhook perks or attempts. Really hope they do that, would actually make finisher moris a fast way to end a match instead of the opposite with people waiting out people on hook to get it.
Seems fair to me, though I still like the idea teh Finisher Mori unlocks if and only if the last survivor is not in the dying state when the 3rd survivor dies.
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I'm changing the title to something more fun xD
But I would still like to see gate regression 🤣
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3821949#Comment_3821949
Bro… lol. This game is in no way important enough to cause one to drink themselves to sleep lol. BUT! I do understand. I can't play Solo'q without smoking a bowl or two first. Then Im ready for anything lol. The game is a lot more hilarious.
I like to think of it more of a double, overly generous nightcap xD
The evwnt is pretty fun though, but be that as it may, the real leason is "don't play video games past midnight...", you get far, far too wired to sleep afterwards xD
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
Oh wow… Im so sorry lol. That Mikaela is pretty stupid. Like… baseline stupid lol
@Shinkiro said:
Proving the real problem with solo q is the survivor players making the dumbest plays and snowballing the game.
Appreciate it... I was ranting into the wee hours of the morning on that one... 🤣🤣🤣
I don't usually rage post... but damn... It wasn't even a Doctor shock to prevent the unhook... he caught both of them with raw m1s. I had to take 2 slugs of liquor to calm down enough to go to sleep xD
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3821769#Comment_3821769
i mean if only one survivor follows you as trapper, you can't trap anything. a whole team swarming trapper makes entire trap power worthless. you might as just camp 3 gens or basement.
Pretty much my point... as bad at it is on Trapper, you still have more with him than Ghost Face if a team is just following you preventing you from ever stalking…
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He's the only killer I know who literally doesn't have a power if the survivors just swarm you/try for saves. Like even Trapper can put up a bit of a fight if survivors run around him... but Ghost Face has literally nothing if he didn't get his stalk off successfully, even then has a hard time in an unfavourable map with an aggressive squad on comms.
If m1s didn't reset stalk, or downing a survivor caused everyone nearby to get stalk, or even if he just had Killer Instinct if ever he downs a survivor to known someone's near, something to help him when players swarm him
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It's pretty awesome on Dredge and can be quite good on Sadako and Wraith... would you believe it's also surprisingly not awful on Vanity Mirror Myers?
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I absolutely want his scamper to be better and to move away from this constant dash gameplay, and I've wanted this as a feature where you can continue your slice and dice after a scamper for ages to be good...
However I must ask... what does a survivor do to counter here? He literally full slice and dice dashed twice in a row and perfectly hugged the tile.
There doesn't seem to any safety for the survivor anywhere... you can't juke the hit cause Chucky can flick, you can't leave the tile cause he will just reach you anyway, you can't double back because he can just turn back away from the pallet and hit you anyway from the other side, and you can't use either pallets or windows cause he's gonna hit you either way before you can move anywhere...
The only thing I think you could hope for is the scenario you have enough distance with time to to throw the pallet, and as he commits to the scamper you run back the same side he came from and hope Chucky screwed up his looking angle to not be able to turn back far enough to each you.
Course he recovers so fast, you're probably getting m1'd anyway.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3821241#Comment_3821241
I'm not really arguing that something is OP (god knows selfcare isnt), just that the ENTIRE point of introducing conspicuous actions was to separate people getting tunneled from someone progressing the game. I DO think it's funny though that the anti-tunnel argument turned into "I can't chase down the killer that was trying to chase someone else and not tunnel me". That part actually made me giggle.
It is a way the UB/DS perk combo can be and is used is it not? 😏
It's value is questionable, and at this point it feels like a thing we have to live with... and that I suppose is where I fall... if I accept UB and DS as is, I find PT and DS also acceptable.
And let's be real, you an achieve the same effect with PT, Flip Flop and Power Struggle, and a Duo can abuse that combo ad nauseum. So again... the PT and DS combo is rather low on my list of concerns.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3821218#Comment_3821218
The thing is, this "combo" is different than other anti-tunnel combos. If I don't tunnel someone who brought DS/unbreakable, they have 2 perks that arnt being used. Plot twist is SUPPOSED to be used out of chase though. Plot twist even if not being tunneled is going to heal it's user. The counter to it is "quickly find the slug".
If someone self cares, the game acknowledges that's someone progressing the game (a conspicuous action) and they arnt protected by things that would have otherwise protected them. A killer, if finding someone selfcaring in the corner at a slower rate than plot twist... can take that chase without anti-tunnel kicking in. Plot twist though provides a self heal, progressing the game... but the user is still protected.
Sidenote... plot twist can be used up to 2 times, not once.
Yeah, fair enough, I agree with that assessment, and I will admit there is an argument for it. It is a strong combo, and I wouldn't be too upset if DS was limited on it via a conspicuous action flag... but I also wouldn't be too upset if it didn't happen either.
The DS is a one time thing, just like the Unbreakable combo... and the difference is the Unbreakable combo can be used to body block, whereas the Plot Twist combo can't, so I'd say the two are on par. If you really want to tunnel a Plot Twister, eat the DS and carry on with the tunnel.
This is the crux of the argument, Plot Twist can't be used offensively, it is entirely defensive, and I'd say it's about as strong as the UB and DS combo, and just like that combo it dunks on lower tier killers more than higher tier killers... but I'd rather take on a PT/DS player taking 32s to heal, than have a UB/DS player getting in my way.
The difference vs Self Care is Self Care can be used any many times as the player likes with no limit… Plot Twist can't. Plot Twist gets 1 use before the gates are powered, whereas Self Care is as much as you're willing to use it, and is why it's still meta in Asia.
So I accept your premise, it's not an unreasonable change, but I think I'm kinda on the fence about it.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3821179#Comment_3821179
IIn the combo, plot twist is not solving anti tunnel anything. Plot twist is acting as a self heal... same as a medkit. DS is the anti tunnel. The "combo" is just removing any risk that Plot twist inherently has. If your getting chased down after unhooking, Plot twisting mid chase directly in front of the killer is as much of an anti-tunnel as whipping out a medkit and healing right there. Both are announcing "if you leave me alone, Im going to heal myself". The only difference... DS would turn off for the medkit.
I understand the point you're making, and I can see the flaw…. but you don't seem to want to commit to saying this combination is overpowered… and we're kinda dancing around that point… your argument seems to sit upon "Plot Twist heals me, therefore technically that is a heal, and should be a conspicuous action".
I'm not saying you're wrong with this point, but you seem reluctant to talk about the impact this has on the game as a whole… maybe the combo is overpowered, for scenarios I've highlighted myself, maybe it isn't, but we don't seem to be discussing that… instead we're arguing the semantics of healing.
If you don't tunnel a Plot Twist, then plot twist is a slow 1 time self heal. It's got a fairly long list of advantages, and a fairly long list of trade offs…. it becomes much stronger if the killer commits to tunneling a Plot Twist player and you take DS, and my question to you is, is that a problem given it is entirely the killers decision if they want to tunnel to be hit by this combo?
Pros: -
- You can heal through\bypass numerous things like Pig traps, Cenobite chains, Oni blood.
- You ignore status conditions such as Mangled, Haemorrhage, Deep Wound and Broken (if you wait till gone before completing).
- Makes the user very quiet and hard to see/find while healing for the killer, while also highlighting position to team mates.
- Can be combined with Decisive Strike or Flip Flop/Power Struggle under pallets for a safe method of healing off hook where you can't be easily tunneled.
- Gets an additional use once the gates are powered, allowed for an effective reset for end game and can be used to slow EGC for survivors while healing.
Cons: -
- You can't effectively move and or react to other game events once you've started healing with Plot Twist.
- Requires you to find a place to hide the killer won't realistically check. Either that or you are deliberately baiting the killer and the killer needs to take said bait.
- Once used in the main trial it can not be used again until the gates are powered.
- It takes a rather long time at 32s, and has very few perks that can assist/synergise with it.
- The perk is revealed to the killer on the HUD.
- Does not work from the dying state if the killer manages to down you before you can Plot Twist, making it useless for body blocking.
This is the list that needs to be consulted when deciding if Decisive Strike should be removed as a possible combo for Plot Twist. Does it have too many pros vs. cons? I'd say currently it offers more valuable pros than cons, which is should, cause it's supposed to a be a perk not a detriment, and the question is, does it have too many pros for the cons that it brings?
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3820816#Comment_3820816
If selfcare was no longer deemed a conspicuous action, would you call IT OP?
As far as your question though, if a killer DID stumble across a survivor healing themselves via Plot twist, I don't think an anti tunneling tool should save them just like if a killer stumbled across someone healing via medkit. Plot twist is typically used outside of chase after all.
Sure, but thats if they "stumble" across a Plot Twist user they hooked 80s prior... and in that case that's the killer being lucky and being a little unfair they can't capitalise on it... however realisically how often does that unfairness happen? What's far more likely is the killer is trying to tunnel a Survivor... in which case DS is already doing the job, Plot Twist just adds an extra layer of protection.
The more perks you commit to making this work, the less gen speed up and healing you have for your team. Self Care + Botany is effectively just as good a self heal, and it also speeds up your resets as well, the trade off is, you can stop healing with Self Care and run if you need to, with PT you can't.
When you think about it, this is a very effective anti-tunnel combo. It takes 2 perks to make this combo work AND it requires the killer to come tunnel you to get max value. If they don't tunnel you, Decisive becomes a dead perk and Plot Twist is a slow, 1 time use heal (until end game). If the killer does tunnel you, you get your 1 time DS, but are unlikely to ever get to use Plot Twist to heal.
This makes this combo an effective anti-tunnel build. There is the possibility to heal with Plot Twist and then body block for Decisive, but that's such a tight window and so obvious, it's should rarely realistically come off... that means it's quite difficult to get value from both perks.
Explain to me why using Plot Twist and DS as an anti-tunnel combo is a bad thing? Aren't we supposed to be trying to find combinations to make tunneling less effective since it's the best way to win the game?
All that said, I will acknowledge that Plot Twist, OTR, DS has the potential to be quite an obnoxious bunch of perks, since you can body block with OTR, then Plot Twist through deep wound, and still have your DS... but again that is a tight window to pull off.
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Infectious Fright and Forced Hesitation is the classic counter to people hanging around for flashlight saves.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3820806#Comment_3820806
Recovering from the dying state itself is whatever. I feel the act of activating plot twist itself though should be considered a conspicuous action the moment you crouch and hit the button.
Ah OK, I understand now... that makes sense, but is this combo really overpowered enough to warrant it?
You can only Plot Twist once for the combo before the gates are powered, and it only works if you're actively trying to tunnel, which is no different to just running Decisive Strike on its own...
It's probably actually worse than running DS on its own, cause you can't even use it to body block, which is the usual pain point of Decisive.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3820792#Comment_3820792
I never claimed it was overpowered. I wouldn't say selfcare is overpowered either... I just don't see why selfcare is considered a conspicuous action while plot twist is not. The moment you heal 0.0001 of a charge with selfcare, even if you don't finish the heal... it's a conspicuous action.
Well I suppose the point I was driving at is Plot Twist has a number of limitations already that makes it so having it be a conspicuous action isn't really necessary as I highlighted.
However tbh the actual reason is mechanically because it's recovering from the dying state, which doesn't make sense as a conspicuous action, otherwise you couldn't use Decisive Strike itself if you consider recovering from the dying state to be "healing" or "conspicuous".
You'd have to give the recovery event an exception specifically for Plot Twist, and since there are the limitations I've highlighted and it isn't overpowered... that exception just isn't necessary.
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Plot Twist is a weird perk that is actually quite good at sneaking around a lot of things, such as Pig traps, Cenobite chains, Oni bleeding, as well as working to slow down EGC on demand.
It's weakness is that it can onl be used twice, and takes 30s to recover which cannot be boosted by a lot of the other healing speed perks, only benefitting from Unbreakable (which is counter productive) or Tenacity. You also have to commit, once you start using it, you cannot change your mind.
Plot Twist IS surpringly good, better than you would think, and really fun to build around... but it's not something I'd say is overpowered.
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@Akumakaji said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3820536#Comment_3820536
This is a pretty good assessment. I basically never run this perk, but when I do for some reason, I am always amazed and overwhelmed by all the yellow dots and how comfortable it feels to know that a pallet is just over there :D
But luckily I nearly never have room in my builds for it and play 99% without it.
The brainrot is real, though. Every time you have widespread blindness activated (the objective worst statuseffect) you see players losing all sense of direction and entering headless chicken mode. This is the main reason why Ultimate Weapon was so hated, I would bet money on it! :D
Hehehe… I hear you, I have to avoid WoO at all costs, cause it's like a satnav for me… go the same route 50 times, still don't know the way there xD
Chaos Shuffle is so much easier in chase… but way harder to map control as killer, and I'm sure the lack of exhaustion perks and WoO is the reason. In regular games I've legit seen teams fold completely due to a well hidden Hex: Third Seal totem… started off running the killer for 90s plus… then couldn't last more than 10 seconds forever more after that xD
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I now consider WoO a killer boot camp perk, where whenever a survivor runs it, it's actively helping the killer get better at learning the game, as Survivors are somewhat competent all the time. It makes a bad survivor actually somewhat in the same realms as a veteran survivor with non of the work or effort.
It is however also turning the survivors brain to mush. Removes any need to actually think, and allows them to just be a bot that sits on a gen until licked by the terror radius, run the yellow brick road with Lithe and likely be fine... at least until they start going against strong killers that counter that and have literally learned none of the fundamental skills you need to try and play basic mind games or macro... but... thems the breaks I guess.
Personally I'd like to run WoO from time to time or recommend it new players, but it comes with the caveat "if you don't care about actually learning to play DBD, take WoO, it'll help you win more often".
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@SoGo said:
I updated the discussion a bit, adding few add-on changes into the rework, as well as changing some parts of the rework a bit.
Another part of his kit that's annoying is collecting traps, which are often on the opposite side of the map.
My idea is that he could be able to highlight up to 4 traps, which he could then destroy remotely. After that, he could simply pick them up from a locker, just like Huntress does.
Oooooh I really like that 🙌
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@Devil_hit11 said:
reverting how she used to be. claw traps giving haste. 10% hindered. drones have two modes, stealth mode and regular scan mode.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3819372#Comment_3819372
she's already trap killer. you set drone traps around the map, often using LOS blockers so survivor do not see scan lines. you chase survivor, build 2 lock on stacks on them and then change target. when a survivor is going through the map, they get hit by 1 scan line and it gives them claw trap, injuring them and put them in broken state.
after that, you use your radar to see survivors and you place drones to gain undetectable to sneak up on survivors that work on generators to collect your bounty. during that time, you can use haste effect from claw trap and scans to chase concurrent survivors to end chases quickly. that is how pre-nerfed merchant functioned. now it doesn't work because…. scan lines are visible to survivors… there is no haste effect for claw traps and your slowed for using radar. as result, the waiting game for the rework/revert.
The one distinction of Skull Merchant vs. other trap killers is trap killers require set up. Both Trapper and Hag have to stop to set their traps, and that causes them to lose distance.
Skull Merchant on the other hand has always been able to drop a drone on a tile in chase, and immediately lock down the entire tile, no setup required. In this regard this makes her more of an anti-loop zoning killer, closer to Artist or Knight.
Her drones are also highly telegraphed to survivors, even in stealth mode giving a clear warning via the ring on the ground where they are, and serving more as a "no go zone" rather than a trap, and yes I realise the point of a trap is to zone, but a trap is passive in nature and something that should have a realistic ability to function without the owner there.
If I were to riff on making her a true trap/stealth killer, I'd do something like: -
- Skully - Give her 8 drones.
- Skully - No haste, your web of drones and your active scout drone is your catch up/down power.
- Drone - Bring back stealth drones as the default deployed state, remove the ring and make them stationary.
- Drone - Have a 3s startup for any deployed drone so they are less effective at tagging in chase. Drone deployment still slows the Skull Merchant. (Also please drop the drone at the end of her animation... its clunky and weird how it is now)
- Drone - Drone deployment no longer grants Undetectable (moved elsewhere). Remove the deployment cooldown.
- Drone - Have claw traps applied immediately upon being scanned without injuring the survivor, giving Skull Merchant constant info.
- Drone - Being scanned with a claw trap applies exposed for the duration of the claw trap. Further scans apply 8% hinder for 6 seconds.
- Drone - Scout drones operate how they do now, with only 1 scan line. Raise the turning speed to 105°/s (they feel too pedestrian now and this reduces their time to crouch).
- Drone - A hacked drone cannot be recalled for 20s.
- Radar - No longer slows the Skull Merchant.
- Radar - Add a 1s cooldown to switching direction on the drone. Pressing and holding the rotation button for 1s resets the drone back to stealth mode.
- Radar - After holding the radar up for 2s Skull Merchant slows to 4.0m/s and gains Undetectable.
Without haste and the immediately lockdown her traps bring, all of the pain points of Skull Merchant are gone.
Without a survivor running into a trap she is a m1 killer with stealth, disarming her traps severely limits her power.
If you can eat a scan, you can disarm a trap, its actually in your interest to do so if you're at a good tile, but now you have a claw trap, and can't risk eating another one and Skull Merchant knows where you are and can look at chasing you into her web.
Skull Merchant has Undetectable on tap rather than it awkwardly being attached to drones, so you want to heal against her. Her exposed effect and hinder is counter playable with pallets and windows, but it is strong and threatening. Her using/checking her radar to freely switch drone directions without penalty keeps her fun and not clumsy to play.
Placing drones to cut off paths means they aren't necessarily in optimal places to close of loops and tiles. You also want them somewhere defensible that another survivor can'tslip in and disarm easily, making them muvh more playable for survivors, but the scan line direction shift gives Skully a strong mind game. Trying to place drones in chase is significantly less effective due to the start up time.
Obviously fine details are always up for debate, but that is the core idea of how I would do it.
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@hermitkermit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3819781#Comment_3819781
Perhaps It really comes down to the level of irritation. Basement Bubba, Proxy Huntress, or Tunneling Pyramid Head, while frustrating, are over relatively quickly. In the height of Skull Merchant’s days, games could last 45+ minutes. This is a community that’s not known for its patience, even being bled out for 4 minutes or survivors taunting at the exit for 2 minutes can drive people crazy.
While tactics like tunneling or camping are annoying, and can be detriment, they don’t compare to an hour-long game where Skull Merchant could hold even the best survivor teams in the world hostage. That’s why her reputation is so bad, it wasn’t just frustrating to face her it was exhausting. Her ability to drag games out to such an extreme, especially against highly skilled players, left a lasting negative impression. It’s like getting really bad food poisoning. Some people can never touch that food again because of just how awful the sickness was, even if the chances of getting sick that same way are low. The absolute misery that you experienced that 1 time was enough to keep you away from it.
I’m not happy about the hatred, but I understand why it’s there. Especially when you consider how many people defended “chess merchant” it just gave this nasty reputation that the people who play her don’t care about anyone else but themselves and will go out of their way to make the game as miserable as possible just because they can. Kinda like with SWFs. More than likely the majority of SM players aren’t like that, and majortiy of SWFs aren’t like that either, but it happened enough to get a nasty reputation that makes people want to delete both things from the game entirely just because of how frustrating the memories of the bad ones are.Yeah, I think you're right.
Unfortunately "######### sticks" is the phrase I believe and Skull Merchant is a perfect storm of bad initial reception, one of the worst unfun playstyles following the 6.1.0 patch that she happened to be one of the best at, into a rework that was passable but not good and did nothing to repair her reputation, that BHVR have now openly acknowledged and validated the revile of.
At this point it's just arguing against how people feel, not anything objective, and unfortunately there is nothing to debate in that conversation... you can't argue with how someone feels… Unfortunately that means a lot of players just don't want her to work, and aren't willing to entertain the idea of her being fixed. No amount of blood will ever be good enough.
I believe the other issue is content creators constantly make their disdain known for Skull Merchant and keep the bad public perception. Some like Scott always hated her, he's never even entertained the idea of her ever working, calling her a terrible idea that never should have seen the light from day 1. While I disagree with this assessment and it feels a little close minded, especially as Scott is normally very reasonable and fair (I would have really liked to hear his thoughts on how a drone based killer could work), at least Scott never changed his tune.
Other content creators who I won't name have changed their tune in line with the wind around Skull Merchant. They genuinely don't like her I have no doubt, but its also in their interest to keep throwing her under the bus. Anyone who did speak on her behalf at any point, even in a passing mention of giving props to an improvement, has quickly backpeddled since because it isn't worth the rift from their own fans. I won't name drop, but I do recall a few instances of players supporting Skull Merchant changes as improvements during the PTB, but then later continuing to meme on her hate train and "just delete her".
Almost all of them now refuse to acknowledge any improvements or potential for her and instead keep completely running her down and fueling the hatred of the character. It's an easy win to stay on the good side of their community rather than take a risk of supporting anything about Skull Merchant.
If I was really cynical, I'd say keeping her at hated meme of a character is easy content farming... but that's disingenuous... however I know I for one am very tired of the completely unconstructive Skull Merchant hate campaign.
I like the idea of a surveillance killer where I have to sneak past not only her, but her sensors too. The core idea of Skull Merchant is cool and different, and I just want that idea to be realised properly and be fun... However that idea can't possibly ever come into being if no one is willing to even try and explore how it can work... and that to me is really lame.
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Pretty cheesey-strat, but NWO-ED is always cheesey.
I never liked the idea of ML. Came out at the same time as MFT and I said as much back then that just slapping haste on things is problematic. Course the condition limited it's effectiveness severely, but we're seeing that problem now xD
Machine Learning makes it more over the top, but Legion has had access to BFF, NOED, NWO and PWYF for ages With these he moves to move at between 5.24m/s and 5.93m/s. Machine Learning takes it to 5.7m/s and 6.39m/s.
Its a nasty trap, but a risky one, as slugging only works if the survivors kinda let it happen. If you're split up miles apart from each other as you should be, the killer can't effectively slug you, and you can happily just split up and wait it out as long as the Legion doesn't get 2 fast slugs and is already able to find the third... but that's obviously a principle you can't trust your average players to respect... so yeah... it's cheesey and lame, but OP? Not so convinced.
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@hermitkermit said:
Unfortunately, the SM still has a reputation that lingers, and even though recent mechanics and nerfs have changed aspects of her playstyle the people who leaned into those arguably frustrating tactics haven’t necessarily changed. Her “unfun”strategies, like 3-genning and slugging, became popular because so many players used them to stall games, and those same players can still do alot of that stuff today (just not for an entire hour).
It’s not unlike the stereotypes of Bubba with basements, Tunneling with Pyramid Head, or proxy camping with Huntress. They’ve all developed reputations for those things. Certain killers can attract certain players who rely on specific, and (at times) frustrating strategies because that killers base-kit mechanics make it easy to take advantage of those tactics. (a Ghostface tunnel vs. a Trickster tunnel will be a very different experience)
Of course not every Skull Merchant player uses these tactics, or those other killers with those tactics aren’t always used, but it happens frequently enough for that reputation to persist. (Survivors are a bit different since it’s just skins but there’s still reputations. Like Dwight’s in lockers, Claudette’s who hide, colorful Feng Mins who BM etc.)
It’s less about the specific changes to her mechanics and more about the frequency in the mindset of players that created the stereotype in the first place having not changed.The only issue I have with that is despite face camping Bubba being very prevalent, and untouched for literal years, people generally love Bubba. Even that is in spite of the fact he's a buggy, inconsistent mess. I don't think there's ever been a point where Bubba didn't have something bugged or unintended in his kit, even now, yet people still like Bubba.
Same for Huntress and Pyramid Head, who are still absolutely capable of their agregious and unfun gameplay...
Skull Merchant's agregious gameplay on the other hand has been nerfed 3 times. 1 with one AFC, 1 through a complete rework and then 1 through a butchering nerf to Skull Merchant herself.
What really gets me is Singularity can do pretty much the same thing Skull Merchant used to do, stall out the game by hard holding a 3-gen, only tempered by the very nerf Skull Merchant brought in... yet he basically gets away with no criticism whatsoever.
People hate Skull Merchant on principle. Nothing more... and while I acknowledge the long list of flaws with Skull Merchant, at some point it switches from a Skull Merchant issue to a community issue, and I'd argue we are far past that point.
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Regarding Beast of Prey:
After breaking a pallet while in chase, gain a 5% Haste Status Effect for 10 seconds. This perk goes on cool-down of 30 seconds."
This is what the perk Game Afoot does, so unfortunately that one doesn't make the list.
Beast of Prey - Gain bloodlust 30% faster and become undetectable when in BL tier 1
@SuspiciousBrownie - It would be better, but I think Survivors wouldn't be too happy at any case of gaining bloodlust faster.
What if instead it was tied to killer power usage? Have it as a mechanism to help out killers who don't have much of a chase power and have to rely on M1s\mind games far more, such as Pig, Trapper, Myers, Ghost Face, maybe even Legion.
Beast of Prey
Your lust for a kill is so intense that your connection with The Entity is momentarily lost, making you totally unpredictable.
Whenever you are in chase, Beast of Prey activates.
- Grants the Undetectable status effect.
Using your killer power causes Beast of Prey to go on cooldown for 20s.
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@CursedPerson said:
Predator is not fine. It stifles build variety. I used to occasionally run lose the killer builds with stuff like deception, or someone getting a clutch bite the bullet juke out. If they lose chase they know exactly where you are hiding and its not fun.
I see what you're saying, but Predator is not a good perk (mostly). It kinda has this idea that you're preparing to fail... which is just not good.
Vast majority of the killer roster does not benefit from losing distance on the survivor, and any halfway decent killer is not going to lose players in chase 95% of the time, thus people won't tend to run it because the value isn't there. M1 killers lack the lethality/mobility to capitalise on the aura in most scenarios where they lose chase, and highly mobile killers almost always have better perks they can take instead (and they are even less likely to lose chase).
The only killers you might see it on frequently (other than Nurse) is Wraith since he can end chase at will, and maybe Huntress who may like the aura read if she has to stop for hatchets (though even that is probably not great on her 9 times out of 10).
Other than that, Predator is not a strong perk, so you won't see it unless you're going against lowbies using it as a crutch.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3819466#Comment_3819466
No solo queue player believes they should win all the time. But surely you don’t believe losing 8/10 games is something any gamer should “just accept.” Right?
I lose about 70% maybe 80% of my games, and I'm often fine with it. Why? Cause it's a team game for survivors, and someone often has to die to win.
The main reason I die so often, is I'm one of the few players with the stones to do what needs to be done to get that damn gate powered. The gates are powered in about 50% of my games, varying escapes, but it's rare I'm one who actually makes it, because at any moment a coward/idiot will often create a scenario where someone has to die for survivors to win... and most players fail to recognise that/take that course of action.
This is your fate when you're the smartest guy in the room... You're the only one who understands what must be done to win, and that often leads to you having to die for the rest of the team to get out...
So I personally lose 70 maybe even 80% of the time... but a fellow survivor or more gets out 50% of the time.
Also I wouldn't die as often if survivors would stop leaving games for stupid reasons... but hey ho. 😒😒😒😒
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@upsideinsanity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3816815#Comment_3816815
Or, and hear me out, OR IDGAF if I get a 4k or a 4 out because i dont sweat it, its a game, I am here to have fun and hope that the people I play against do too.
Yes, I have gone up against good survivors, I have been 4 outed multiple times, I don't care. However those matches are few and far between. Killer is easy. The goal is for killers to get a 60% kill rate, meaning the goal for survivors BY THE DEVS is to have a 40% escape rate. Try telling me again killer is not easy.
Guess what, I also care about the game being fun for both sides, and I rarely secure the 4k, opting instead to give hatch. I don't tend to tunnel, or camp, and I don't tend to slug for the 4k. I don't tend to run more than 1 meta perk and often try out quirky and interesting builds. I have a personal rule of no sacrifices until the 6th hook.
If someone DC's or SoH, then I play out the game still till I've hooked everyone, and anyone who quits gets killed, anyone who tries is allowed to fully repair and leave, or get hatch, whichever is faster.
I've played like this since I started DBD. I used to only sacrifice survivors after I got 8 hooks in the game, but I had to change that rule because it was just becoming impossible to do as Survivors got better. Even with these limitations/principles, I won a lot of my games quite often, and have been steadily improving my MMR... and I'm now hitting the point where playing like this often results in a 2k or less. It's why I like Pig because her kit naturally rewards me for not tunneling or camping because of the slowdown it brings, but even her power has its limits.
It's reaching the point now where I am playing against good teams often. The kind of teams that get 3 generators done by the time you finish your first chase. Slowly I've had to take less quirky builds, be a little more liberal about punishing survivor mistakes, and be more open to a tunnel if it's the obviously best choice to counter what survivors are doing.
My natural proclivity for games is Co-op, survivor actually suits me better as a role to play, but I play killer cause I like game and theme a lot. I play Survivor now about 60% of the time because it's the less stressful role. I can be much more memey on survivor and get away with it than I can on killer.
The point is, I have constantly felt the killer role getting harder and harder the more I've played it, and it sounds like you haven't played it enough to experience that. Often a mistake of mine is punished very harshly in my games now, and opportunities to capitalise on Survivor mistakes become fewer and far between... I'm now at a point that I can easily find myself against a team that will absolutely demolish me, and it's not uncommon to see 2 hooks escapes on my meme builds now, as you'd expect, and even running meta I can get caught with 4 man escapes time to time.
The thing is, despite how hard my games can be sometimes, I know I'm still a long way off of going up against the upper end of what survivors can do/bring... I can feel how far the gulf really is... and the fact you say Killer is easy tells me that you haven't played enough killer to experience it.
I dont want to get anywhere near that rank. As an M1 killer you have to sweat so hard against a strong Survivor team just to function, and the game just isn't fun. Look at Druss N Bubba on Pig. He plays miserably, because that's all he can do to win at his MMR, and I'm sure he's gonna have an aneurysm one day.
I've seen the Survivor builds and akills people I know who are far better than me are going against regularly, and it's horrifyingly strong... and is why survivors at a certain level only go against Nurse, Blight, Sprit, Billy, Chucky and Wesker. Without map mobility and high lethality, you get smoked, and anyone who has played killer any decent length of time understands why.
So unless you've got some strong revolutionary evidence to the contrary, where you're the chosen one that can dominate every and any game you ever play on a killer not in the top 50% of killers...
No killer is not easy.
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@Musxussu575 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3818646#Comment_3818646
This. 👍️
The very nature of Nurse is that she breaks the conventional rules of the game.
Every killer does something interesting and powerful with a select handful of perks. Huntress and Trickster like Iron Maiden, as may Artist once people start diving into lockers to remove crows (like me). Distressing is good on Doctor. Monitor & Abuse can be slick on Hag (RIP Deathslinger 😔).
Remember when people freaked out about Nurse when Awakened Awareness dropped? Where are those people now? Let strong killers have strong perk synergies. It's not wrong. Not every Nurse is going to use it - I rarely face a Nurse anyways, so I don't even know how prominent she is regardless.
Top third of Killers pick rate based on Nightlight... and I'm not sure what your stance is exactly?
You are right that she breaks conventions of the game... Nurse has her own unique mind games which is a part of her that should be prized. Breaking line of sight, doubling back, or faking doubling back, or moving in unpredictable ways are the counters to Nurse, which you appear to know...
However it appears you alarw saying just let Nurse have perksnthat remove the one element of counterplay left for survivor... happy yo have the debate, but teh two halves of your statement seem to contradict one another 🤔🤔🤔