UndeddJester
UndeddJester
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@Hungarianmercenary said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3815122#Comment_3815122
They automatically see killers as a try hard when they wear blighted outfit.
😞😞😞😞
Ultimate Sadge
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I ran a meme build, got absolutely demolished on Ormond, but I didn't mind... and no one booped my snoots... 🥺🥺🥺🥺🥺🥺
Survivors... y u h8? 😭
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I suppose you could argue it's a Gambit in the fact you want to stay in chase rather than break chase...
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@buggybug said:
I love how killers think aura reading perks from add ons or perks arent as crutch or more of a crutch than distortion, obviously why distortion use sky rocket was cause of too much aura reading. I challenge a killer to give me a add on or aura perk that takes skill from their part other than BBQ that requires you to hook someone. What killers use to do when aura reading never use to exist? Side note I run OOO so don't ask for that to be nerfed please.
If you look at the history of DBD, killers would usually run crap tonnes of slowdown so that survivors had to at some point be on a generator so they could be found, and killers actually had enough time to find them.... but we keep nerfing that playstyle....
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@crogers271 said:
I think the concept of Skull Merchant is flawed, so I think the killer will always be a problem.
Part of her original design seemed to be the idea of getting info from the drones with the handheld radar. But aura perks accomplish that more effectively and many survivors don't even engage in stealth, so you have one whole segment of her power that isn't really necessary.
Then there are the issues that her drones are really unfun to go against. I'll quote @UndeadJester 's post:
I still really want them to go all in and make her a bonified trap killer. Trap killers are immensly satisfying when pulled off, even if they aremt the strongest, and we haven't had one since Hag, which is absurd when you think about it.The question here is: satisfying for who? Trapper starts fun with newer survivors because they are never certain if a trap is in a bush or over a window. Singularity is fun because the counterplay element is quick while still requiring investment and you still have meaningful chases and dodges. Hag brings a jump scare element and the nature of her power means she can't shut down sections of the map like skull merchant can.
I get the idea of why a trap killer might be fun to play, but to go against? Even if its balanced, its not exactly fun to stare at a line of drones set up and do hit and runs on the trap wall to try and shut it down.
Back to OP
I think BHVR has said they'll never totally remake a killer again (i.e. give them a totally different power). While I think that makes sense, even if I'm not thrilled by it, because of it I think SM will always have some core problems. You're right on the amount of time they've had to spend on her, but I don't think this is a killer that could be fixed with just more time, but if in the early planning stages someone had just said 'no, this isn't going to work' the game would be in a healthier spot today.
Yeah I do accept you point, and even in the post you're quoting I've already accepted you can't really make her strong because people don't like going against her if she is strong, and this is true of all trap killers.
Fundamentally the speed of DBD doesn't accommodate a trap killer very well. You need to invest time to set up your web, and its time you don't really have to spare... so you have this fundamental problem with trap killers where their setup needs to be worth the payoff... and the only way to do that is make the trap itself kinda broken. Failing that you get Trapper who kinda gets dunked on, or Hag who can do work, but is map and add-on relaint to do so. In either case they have to play really nasty to be competitive, and even then they can struggle.
Skull Merchant does have a problematic design flaw, in that she has this drone that needs to do something. Info as you say isn't enough (though info is not bad perce, it free's up perk slots), but it needs to something. Unfortunately the drone by its very concept has a lot of radius it controls, which is where the problem of her anti loop comes in, it's a trap that covers a huuuuuuuge area that can't be reasonably played around by survivors. It basically makes the whole tile a giant death zone.
Basically this power can have anti-loop, but it has to be a weak anti-loop, one that survivors can juke her power for it to be satisfying, but still dangerous enough to pose a credible threat.
The idea I have in mind for her to be a trap killer is rather intricate, but the key points are: -
- Single scan line makes her a lot fairer to juke at loops. There is a sweet spot somewhere you can balance frequency of having to crouch vs. the length you have to stay crouched that wasn't possible to find with 2 scan lines. I'm thinking like 105 - 125 degrees a second.
- More drones for a trap killer. Maybe 8 overall.
- No haste. Haste is a cheap way of becoming meta, and feels bad to go against, avoid whenever possible.
- Stealth drones are stationary with no ring. Can be used to cut off paths. Easier to spot than a Trapper/Hag trap if placed poorly.
- Skully can set up drones while on the move. Maybe consider giving her a slight slowdown when deploying a drone, say 4.2 m/s. Remove the radar slow.
- Stealth drone placement for an effective trap != effective placement for anti loop. Her anti loop won't be nothing, but it'll certainly be more playable. The fact you have to trigger the drone for it to rotate means the drone is a setup tool, not a reliable loop shutdown tool.
- Deployment lazer tagging is optional. If desired the stationary drone makes this a jukable skillshot. If not add a 1s delay before the beam deploys. Latter makes more sense if we want to reduce drone setup cooldown (which we probably do), so Skully cant keep dragging back drones rapidly and trying for another lazer tag.
- Some cooldown on the switch direction of drones to prevent wiggling the scan line over the survivor. Say 0.75s (or 90 degrees or so, this varies with ten rotation time, find the sweet spot).
- Probably want some ability to reset a drone 24s or so after the survivor is first scanned.
There are other details I would mention, but those are the major points. If her setup is that of locking off routes with drone placement, running blindly into the map is a bad idea since you're activating her web. If the beams are fair without haste propping SM up, I think they become engaging to dodge. Her anti loop is not too strong, but its something to be respected.
Between creating a successful Web and successfully timing her rotations for tags to either catch a survivor with the haste or get the double tag, she has enough to keep her enjoyable to play. Survivors meanwhile aren't getting stuffed over by random haste and the damned if you do damned if you dont crouch of the double scan line, and have 3 scans to play with before it becomes an issue, and can meaningfully play around the area they know instead of the area they don't.
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@AbsolutGrndZer0 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3814649#Comment_3814649
In order to get Tenor Images to show on forums, you need to use "Open Image in New Tab" like twice until you get to the actual image, not tenor's site.
By jove... it worked... thanks, I've tried every combination other than thatbto get teh dammed thing to work xD
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I'm always tripping over my laces vs. Deathslinger for some reason... dunno why, I just seem to do everything wrong xD
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@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3814826#Comment_3814826
If all 3 perks would be interesting, then I wouldn’t complain, but most times there are always one or more perks on a character that are bad from the beginning. With only 2 perks they could focus on 2 and make them good instead of making 3 mediocre perks.
Make chests better? They suck why bother.
I already suggested a chest/luck buff/rework multiple times. Same with hexes and other stuff.
Yeah fair enough, looking back, it wasn't clear I was speaking in hyperbole there... I'm someone who likes to try different builds and play around with various perks to see if I can find unique and interesting combos.
In that post I was pointing out how a lot of people react to perks... which is usually, is it isn't broken, it's ######### 😁
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3814826#Comment_3814826
Having 3 perks gives 3 chances for something interesting to stick. 2 perks means fewer chances to innovate and more pressure to ensure a perk is strong in the meta...
We don't realistically get 3 chances though. They always play it safe with one or two of the perks on a new character, and in fact the last few years that safe perk has usually just been a slight variation on an existing one.
I know it's not particularly realistic for other reasons, but from a gameplay/variety angle there wouldn't be anything of value lost by going down to 2 perks. There's just so much chaffe to sort through as it is and we could do with culling more of it.
The only way I can think of pulling it off is to find some way of doubling up on perk effects that doesn't rip people off. Like new characters come with 2 new perks plus a new flavour of an old one. But that would require a new mechanic whereby you can toggle different versions of the same perk. E.g. Flashbang and Firecracker, mechanically identical but one gives you a firecracker effect instead of the flash grenade. However there's probably only so far you could take that, there may only be half a dozen perks that could work for.
Do you not think we're at kinda a turning point though?
Credit where credit ia due, perks have been getting updated up the wazzoo recently... I dunno about you, I feel like BHVR are being a little bit more adventurous and brave with perks over the past few months, and they actually seem to mostly listen to feedback from the PTB now, so busted stuff like Corrective Action doesn't make it to live, and they seem.to be fairly balanced on the final results.
Like Draculas new Hex perks have some pretty ugly combos, Belmont got a slower acting medkit syringe and a Survivor Lethal Pursuer.
I mean yeah, meta redefining perks haven't really come through, but when people usually mean meta perks, they mean something on MFT level, which personally I'd rather avoid. I'd take 3 decent perks over 1 stupid broken one any day.
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Just pointing out, you have 2 stacks, with which you can work out what the killers aura perks are. Knowing the perks in play is plenty of the value for the perk just on its own...
Once you know the perks in play, you can play around it with lockers if you really don't want to be found, only now it takes some actual effort on the survivors part to play stealthy rather than just have a perk that does it automatically for them with no interactivity. There are players who manage to be stealthy even without Distortion. Pre-running behind a rock while you have no scratch marks as the killer is only just moving into the same zip code as you is not being good at stealth.
If you're complaining about losing 1 initial stack and now actually having to engage with the actual main feature of the game (chases) to get your free stealth back, I'm sorry I have to say, skill issue.
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So anyway, getting back to things that might actually happen... 😏😏😏😏
J/k, but at this point how do you reverse this?
- People who buy/bought DLCs for perks now get fewer perks on new characters, you can bet that'll be a complaint.
- How do you handle Adepts? 2 perks now?
- Fewer opportunities to introduce something new/shake up the meta. Make chests better? They suck why bother. Invocations? Not strong enough. Are obsession or Hex perks? They are crud, don't use em. If every perk is meta, that means every perk has to extend chase/self heal or have strong auras/slow down gens. How many flavours of the same crud do we have to have?
Having 3 perks gives 3 chances for something interesting to stick. 2 perks means fewer chances to innovate and more pressure to ensure a perk is strong in the meta...
We're seeing weaker perks getting buffed to shake up the whole game constantly right now... there is always meta for those want to be boring and not think about builds, but this game is very fun to bulld new things around... not sure why we want to diminish that.
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Too much Sable pun... train of thought derailed... my mind is becoming unuSable!
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Skullys problem was the opposite, she was not a trap killer, she was a drop and forget anti loop killer. She was basically Clown without any skill requirement.
A true trap killer sets up in an area to cuts off paths and punish survivors who don't loop them at tiles, where teh objective is to push them into your arena.
If anything she needs to be made more like a trap killer where she can set up an effective web, whose primary purpose is to catch survivors who keep hold W-ing away from her instead of playing tiles with her perfect radar knowledge. Take haste off her to have her anti loop in general made weaker, she still has an auto injury and hinder, but for the benefit of more drones that can effectively stay hidden and cut off paths.
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@buggybug said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3814092#Comment_3814092
Oh you beat me to it I was gonna day maybe doc with distressing,unnerved, merciless or huntress lullaby and the perk itself xd.
Yeah... granted it's better for him than anyone else... but it's still pretty bad 😅
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My one concern with ideas like this is it limits player options and places the meta firmly in the hands of the devs to decide, and means BHVR having to maintain a list of meta/non meta perks and actively decide what to strong arm in and out of the meta, rahter than letting it be naturally defined by the community.
There are also issues of there being different metas across the world. What is meta in the US, isn't necessarily meta in Europe, isn't necessarily meta in Asia, etc, which makes the above problem even worse.
An example of elegant design is the exhaustion, broken, deep wounds, terror radius → killer instinct systems, where you have a mechanic that limits the ability to use all of these abilities together and prevent broken combos. This is how I think things SHOULD work, if we want survivors/killers to not stack perks, using status' and general mechanics like this is the way to go…
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@drsoontm said:
As far as I'm concerned, it cannot be worse than it is now.
Skull Merchant is the only killer I refuse to acquire (I have more than 200K shards).
I never liked her, her look, her power, her background.
Having never played her, I naturally don't know how to handle her.
At least with a rework there is a slight chance I find her less repulsive.
Her power, fair enough...
But in regards to her look/background, could I perhaps assuage your disdain with a different perspective?
To me Skull Merchant strikes me as an attractive, narcissistic psychopath, that kind of rich successful killer with a massive superiority complex, who succeeds because of the way society perceives them rather than seeing the monster they really are. People usually see someone dressed smart, attractive and appearing wealthy to be trustworthy, whereas they view people who are scruffy/unattractive/poorer as untrustworthy. Fictional examples includes characters such as Patrick Batemen or the Polite Leader from the Purge, and there are real world examples such as Ted Bundy and John Wayne Gacy.
In this regard Adriana's "normal" appearance plays into her strengths, which then becomes a persona she adopts for the Skull Merchant. Her base outfit is a mash up somethimg anime inspired, but is also very practical. While I'm not a big fan of her base cosmetic (she looks a little plain and uninspired for what she meant to be), her other cosmetics (including the free ones from the rift pass) are all very good and fit the idea well. She doesn't really have a "bad" skin other than her base cosmetic.
Regarding her background, there are flaws that I have pointed out in detail before... it strikes me as rushed and reads like a first draft that had a lot of ideas, but didn't manage to tie them together well.
If you're interested, I did a rewrite a little while back that mostly keeps the same story beats but greatly expands upon the identity of the Skull Merchant and ties everything together much better.
Not that I'm trying to convert you or anything, but my personal feeling around Skull Merchant is she had a lot of potential...
Sadly she was not given anywhere near enough time to bake, and BHVR have been trying to rectify that mistake by haphazardly throwing crap at the wall and seeing what sticks ever since...
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@CountOfTheFog said:
Giving the Wraith the shock of his life 2v8. I always watch this to cheer me up when sad. It makes me laugh out loud. It's only 40 seconds, but a beautiful 40 seconds.
https://youtu.be/15aU738DuhI?si=enpL1gdyEX2Dpnk0
Edit:
Best SoloQ teamwork experience ever. I had Feng Mins back while Dwight had mine.
Wow... those unsafe teabags out in the open to assert dominance xD
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Meanwhile Pig mains upon seeing a 1 search removal with a trap still on hand:
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@Yoshirama said:
This wouldn’t fix anything, they can just stay afk until the killer kills them. This is not about a game mechanic, is player mentality
One major difference is afk/helping the killer by wasting pallets is reportable, SoH is not.
I would like a way to make the game harder to leave but also allow kobe. The reason unhooking you self exists is because survivors are dependent on each other to succeed, but if your team aren't helping you, you have to try to save yourself. This is why the feature exists, to give survivors a last ditch effort at recovering from a hopeless situation. It's the same reason hatch exists.
If you make it so it's impossible to survive if your team is inept, then there is no reason to try once the game goes south, and you might as well just let the killer kill you... we do lose a number of things if we take away kobe that are not insignificant: suiciding for hatch, attempting to recover a 4 man slug, or trying to escape when there are only 2 of you left.
The problem is you also have to have a harsh penalty to do it, otherwise everyone just tries it every time.
My best suggestion to address it is to have a mechanic where the Entity prevents you from suiciding on hook if you "haven't experienced enough pain yet".
- Survivors get 3 attempts to unhook themselves during the summoning phase.
- Each attempt has the same 4% chance, gives them a yellow token above their sacrifice progress bar.
- After 3 attempts the Entity becomes "summoned" and pins the survivor in place (signified by the survivor gripping 1 smaller Entity digits either side trying to stick in their ribs), preventing further attempts.
- When a survivor enters the sacrificing phase (either by being left on hook for 70s or hooked a second time), each token is consumed and removes 23.33s from their sacrifice timer, or immediately sacrifices the survivor if they have 3 tokens.
Something like this:
The idea is a survivor attempting to SoH still has to wait through the 70s of the first hook stage to get out, which means their team doesn't have to immediately stop what they are doing to prevent them, and if unhooked the killer is the one who let's them leave, not the survivor themselves.
I would also make it 3 uncontested skillchecks during the sacrificing phase to SoH. This also would help against slugging for the 4k, cause the killer can hook a survivor and a survivor can't immediately out themselves for hatch, so the killer can hook the survivor to secure the kill and not risk losing them via bleedout, but still ensure they have decent time to find and catch the other survivor.
This does also have the result where hooking a survivor for the first time during EGC means they effectively get 3 attempts for free, since the survivor is there for 70s either way so their team can make a save.... but I feel pushing the winning scenario for killer better and the winning scenario for survivor better is probably a better trade off than allowing things to stay as they are.
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To give an actual Survivor story considering my brain went the wrong way on the first post...
After MFT got nerfed and everyone decided it was trash, I decided to see if I could get value out of it. I ran it with We're Gonna Live Forever, Botany Knowledge and Borrowed Time (just cause) on Ash. I was taking it instead of the FTP+BU combo, cause I'm not a dirtbag 😏😏😏
We were against an Oni on I think it was Wrecker's Yard and it was coming down to the wire. We had all 5 gens done, 4 alive and 7 hooks between us. We had the gate at 10 second done but all 4 of us were in the same place, and Oni had been in power a while and was now trying to nail the Claudette.
He managed to down her maybe 15m from our gate, and set about trying to slug us. I came off gate to hide and all 3 of us were huddled behind the same rock... you know when your brain says "that is really stupid... you need to move", but your hands don't quite get the message quick enough? Oni flew round the rock at the 3 of us and swung... somehow everyone dodged, despite the near mutual sandbag we just did... and it was that moment Oni fell out of power.
As we nuked, I started running to the Claudette, my WGLF charged and started healing. Oni gave a short chase to the others but that gave me the 3 seconds I needed. He ran over and slashed me to injure, but I continued the heal and managed to get Claudette up with WGLF. The gate opened in the distamce and Oni went for her as she bolted out of the gate... when he realised he couldn't catch her for body blocks, he slashed me, only to get stopped by my Made For This.
The non-scummy FTP Buckle Up build... achievement unlocked 😅
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Not a survivor story... but I like to think it is spoken about in hushed whispers around Survivor camp fires xD
I remember the first 2vs8 as Trapper that I actually got an 8k in.
I was paired with a Huntress, and we were on Thompson House. When we started she shook her head at me, I guess she wasn't too impressed I was playing Trapper... I didn't know that for sure, but that's what it seemed like, and it makes sense I suppose cause our powers don't really complement each other, but who wants to queue again?
At first she was kinda going hard while I was just doing my Trapper things, but I had a few really devious trap ideas that day, and fearing someone just going round disarming them if I did obvious stuff, I put them down in some really weird locations. Despite that, as I was roaming around, I had some very early success with chases, just nailed my mind games and was duping survivors and guessing right almost every time, so it wasn't bad going at all.
Despite that survivors werent goofing around and we lost 4 gens pretty fast… but the turning point was, as I was doing a quick trap grab off the tractor after I hooked a survivor, I saw Huntress in the distance at the side of main in the midst of her chases... a Nea was getting in her way and body blocked one of her hatchets, but immediately sprinted into one of my weird traps by the fence, the Feng she took the hit for took the chance to scatter but hit another one at the pallet drop between the hay bails. I guess a Nancy came through main to help one free from the trap cause as Huntress downed the Nea, another trap snapped at the bottom of the stairs in front of main as Nancy came through...
In that moment the Huntress looked at me as I wandered across from tractor with a mixture of disbelief and respect as we basically took 4 hooks in 20 seconds... from that point on she just chilled out, sat in main throwing hatchets down and leaving the chasing to me and my traps while she sniped from overhead. The pressure we created in that moment snowballed the game and it was just a formality closing it out as survivors started dying off.
To put the cherry on it, even when there was 2 left for hatch, both survivors wandered into more random traps 1 after another, and I genuinley laughed as a on high Huntress shot the first down while I took out the other at that same damn trap in front of main... xD
I have no idea why survivors had so much trouble with my traps that game, but I definitely felt I earned my stripes and the approving nod I got from Huntress at the end xD
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The thing they need to fix is pooping a drone at a tile to effortlessly cut survivors off… that and not have her power just be a bland haste steroid.
I still really want them to go all in and make her a bonified trap killer. Trap killers are immensly satisfying when pulled off, even if they aremt the strongest, and we haven't had one since Hag, which is absurd when you think about it.
Create a web of drones that cut off routes that prevent hold w for fear of getting scanned and hindered. They can also serve as the weak anti loop tool that they do now with the single scan and some additional tweaks to make it not the focus of her power, but the important things should be her global detection, perfect knowledge of mind games and maintaining a drone Web.
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@Aceislife said:
I do better playing as Ghostface when I don't stalk at all, kind of playing him like Wraith. Enable Sloppy for slow heals, and thanks to his power you often get those nice and fast first hits. When I try to stalk I just get destroyed by good survivors usually.
@Shroompy said:
Usually what I tend to do as him is trying to go to a higher point (main buildings usually) to try and stalk and 99 there. If you have some one hooked you can usually do so quite easily as you know some one is most likely gonna go for the save. If youre on normal ground, tiny gaps in walls is enough to stalk through (shack for example has holes on the opposite side of the window for example.
Outside of that if youre outside of chase and youre not sure if some one is nearby, go in power and its sort of a win win in your favor. Either you stay in stealth and have a better chance at stalking or you get revealed and you now know where somebody is.
As for the swarming part, you do as you would with any other killer. Split the pressure between all of them, get them all injured, and eventually some of them are either gonna back off or get too comfortable/close which will give you an opportunity. In most cases you can usually breathe enough at some point where you can at least 99 one person. If that's at the beginning of the game so be it, but the moment you recognize theyre just swarming, save em for last. Bait him out if they go for a save or body block and you have yourself a down.
Now I make this sound as if its easy and dont worry, its not that simple. Recognizing these opportunities is something that takes time but you gotta just step out of your comfort zone from time to time and experiment with what works and what doesnt. Then the rest will come naturally.
EDIT: Sorry, don't mean to whine... it's been a tough couple of days for my Ghostie... wearing red cause fashion before meta probably doesn't help xD
That's kind of my point... If you're not stalking, you're not getting your instant down, and if you're not getting your instant down, you're just playing as an M1 killer with Undetectable (and you dont even get that if you have a shadow)... and if you're stuck doing that, why play Ghost Face? At least with Myers when I come online I'm actually somewhat dangerous for a bit... like the potential for GF is obviously higher, but any mistakes or survivors playing well punishes you so hard...
You're better off playing Pig with John's Medical, where you have a limited ability to ambush for an advantage at certain tiles, and if you do catch survivors, you have your RBTs to buy you much more time and pressure in the game. Or you can play Wraith, where you can cloak whenever you want, be impossible/harder to see until you get close, and can close down hold W distance on the map.
This is effectively what keeps popping in my mind as Ghost Face... why do I want to play him over anyone else? I play Pig, Trapper and Myers as my mains, so I have passably good M1 skills, so I can function... but the whole time I'm doing it, I'm not using any of my strengths… if I can get a stalk off, amazing, but more often than not (and on certain maps), even if I know where survivors are, it's can be impossible to get angle without being seen, and I'm having to work really hard just to even try and use my power, and if I'm getting swarmed, I'm just stuck as an M1, eating body blocks and fighting around survivors downed under pallets and wielding flashlights.
Again I accept there is some map learning curve for Ghost Face, but I honestly can't see how you really do anything if you get an unfavourable map or you face a decent SWF. A part of me wonders if he would benefit from at least having Killer Instinct on any survivors within 24m when he downs a survivor, so at least he can be aware of people potentially trying to save.
In addition, if he downs a marked survivor, give him a basekit STBFL (25%?) and give him a 10s +10% speed boost just so he can either pick up fast or run at someone trying to get in his face to wound them (or if he got a God double stalk he is actually rewarded). It would allow you to actually go for hooks without constantly having to watch your back, and discourage people swarming you, which in turn means after each hook you can more often run off into the map and vanish to start being Ghost Face again.
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@Science_Guy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3811370#Comment_3811370
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3811371#Comment_3811371
Why do I get the feeling that all of you doomsayers are forgetting that the only way survivors ever have a flashlight in 2v8 is by looting one…
This was what immediately jumped out to me... there are no pre-game items, so the flashlight paranoia is over the top...
The going down under pallets problem though... that is a little concerning... not really sure what a killer is meant to do vs. that.
Like even if your teammate defends, you still can't really prevent the save... especially as Hillbilly can't instant down...
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I hit 200 a week ago... I wonder if that was the limit cause BHVR said "that'll be plenty, no one will be sad enough to make it up here" 🥲
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One thing that might potentially help, are you going against the bloodpoint bonus? I have noticed my games are usually harder if I go against the bloodpoints for either side...
Which makes sense, if there are not enough players for the other side, the pairings aren't gonna be as even.
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The fact this perk isn't even good with Doctor is pretty telling how bad it is...
I remember a suggestion someone made to flip it round, where every great skill check gave it 3 tokens. Once survivors realise it's in play they can just start hitting goods instead, but then it'd be decent when combined with overcharge/oppression.
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Click to view the GIF
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@Xernoton said:
I'm not sure about Parental Guidance. You are not really supposed to escape a chase so easy. Combine this with Smash Hit and you can camp pallets and pretty always get away. It would also hurt weaker killers way more because they are usually the ones you can actually stun.
Adrenaline's healing effect was nerfed because it incentivised slugging instead of hooking. That does not need to make a comeback. Buff the duration of the speed boost instead. Make it 6-7 seconds or 200% movement speed.
I don't like the idea of Dark Theory applying hindered to the killer. Again, this wouldn't do much against any of the stronger killers (other than Plague) but it would hit M1 killers pretty hard. So it targets the wrong end if the tier list. These are also typically the killers that cannot spare the time to look for the totem.
I'm on the fence about Shadow Step as well. On one hand it would be pretty neat to be that stealthy on the other hand it would mean that a killer has to break the totem each and every time before engaging in a chase. This would be pretty harsh on maps with multiple floors.
I'm against the Any Means Necessary buff. It's already a decent perk and this would again do very little against stronger killers because you don't get to stun them, while allowing you to camp pallets and create resources out of nothing against weaker killers, who already struggled with actual pallet.
I'm not sure about Breakout. I already consider it an unhealthy perk, so anything to buff the effect wouldn't be good in my opinion.
The Finesse buff is probably fine but I would test it first before saying anything more. It's already a pretty good perk.
I have a different idea for Distortion. Start the trial with 3 stacks but only recover stacks when hooked. You get 2-3 stacks for getting hooked and another for every 15 seconds (could be less but I would test it like this first) the killer spends within 20 metres of the hook. The idea is to make it impossible for that survivor to disappear the entire match (each hook you don't take means one more hook on someone else, so you can really screw over your team with this perk) while also making it more effective against camping killers.
I'm pretty sure you mistyped the stun duration for Head On. 30 seconds would be a little much. 😅 Other than that I quite like it.
I heavily disagree with the idea for MfT. The MfT situation was terrible and we do not need a repeat of that in any way, shape or form. I'd rather they gave MfT a completely different effect. Haste is simply too fickle to balance properly.
I'm not a huge fan of permanently suppressing scratch marks even on No Mither. The killer role is already quite dependent on sound clues and this would only hit people that play without a headset or suffer any form of hearing disability.
Wouldn't that be a pretty strong nerf to Poised? If your scratch marks were only invisible within a 9m range of the gen and only for 14 seconds (+ 3 seconds lingering) that would make it weaker than it is now since you get to keep it for the duration no matter where you run.
I don't like your idea for Reassurance. Pausing struggle skill checks is fine but there is a reason it can only be used once per hook state. You're not supposed to be on that hook for so long no matter the reason. Increase the activation range so that you can use it without entering the basement instead. That should be fine.
I can't put my finger on it but something about Repressed Alliance gaining a stack every 30 seconds sounds off to me. Make it 40 seconds and test it that way. Other than that I like the idea.
Saboteur sounds nice except for the part about toolboxes. The sabo speed of toolboxes is already pretty fast, so buffing it would only lead to more situations like with Alex' toolbox where you can always sabo the hook without any issue. Sabo plays are supposed to be risky and situational because the payoff is so huge.
I think Slippery Meat should have a completely different effect. It's only good for luck offering SWFs and that is pretty horrible to play against already. This buff wouldn't make it much better for normal use.
I would rather not see a return of the vault speed build. So I don't think Spine Chill should get that part back. It would also lead to very awkward situations where a killer would try not to look in your direction during a chase.
For Tenacity I'm not a huge fan of it making you completely silent. It's so damn confusing each time you down a survivor and they glitch around and end up being silent too (we already had that as a glitch and it seemed to make a return a few months ago). Activate the reduction of sound 5 seconds after the down and I'm fine with it being 100%. Or better yet BHVR fix this weird glitching around after a down (it has been in the game for 2+ years now).
We'll Make It is already a great perk. It doesn't need a buff.
I think Wicked should simply work on both hook stages. It's quite situational already so that should be fine.
Wiretap should be activated after 33% and that's it. I'm not a fan of it having 2 stacks.
The other survivor perks I didn't mention, I am completely fine with. I'll look over the killer perk changes later.
Xernoton? Freddy avatar? What!?
Regarding OP:
There is so much there, it'd take me half a day to go through everything. Pretty much agree with Xernonton.
Stand out to me is the Ace in the Hole Basekit buff. I like that suggestion a lot....
For a new effect, maybe something like:
Once per trial, you can trigger this perk while searching/rummaging a chest. The next item pulled from this chest will be ultra rare or have an ultra rare add-on. It's basically a guaranteed: -
- Medkit: Gel Dressing or Syringe (Pharmacy buff)
- Toolbox: Brand New Part (Scavenger buff)
- Flashlight: Odd Bulb (Residual Manifest buff)
- Map: Iri, gives that sweet totem tracking vs. Devour Hope and Pentimento.
- Key: Iri, no more broken keys cucking you for hatch.
I don't think any of this is too strong since you are having to go and find a chest and spend the time opening it.
For medkits you can't guarantee a syringe, so that atill seems fine.
For toolboxes with the BNP, it takes more time to find and open the chest and bring it back to the gen than it does to just keep repairing, and you're also running Scavenger which can hurt your repair timings.
Other items aren't oppressive I feel. I feel this gives Ace in the Hole genuine usefulness in a looter build.
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@Pelaan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3811855#Comment_3811855
After all those complaints about Tombstone and scratched mirror I genuinely think he's gonna lose alot of addons
Tombstone Piece is a given. That one add-on is literally the only thing that makes Myers competitive and halts any ability to buff the rest of his kit. JMT though is fine, I would be surprised if anything happened to it since it's pretty fair and iconic to the character.
Scratched Mirror is a meme and I think it will be fine. I don't like it myself cause the jump scare is predictable, and for the gameplay Myers kinda just annoys you into submission. He holds a 3 gen all game, slaps you, drops chase over and over. You win by healing and boosting away until the anti 3 gen kicks in... but there are a number of people find it scary and fun so I don't think it'll go. It's not like Scratched Mirror is unhealthy for the game.
I do wonder if he'll get a model/animations update at some point though, just to clean him up a bit and reduce the clipping on his Mori. That'd be cool 😁
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@SpicySliceOfApplePie said:
hello everyone, I know I haven’t posted here much but I wanted to confide in you guys because I just need a place to rant about myself right now, I suspect the mods don’t want heavy topics like this up and I’m sorry but please don’t ban me, I just need to vent or I feel like I’m going to breakdown mentally. Considering I’ve attempted studied before I don’t think having a mental breakdown is good for me xd
I have MDD (major depressive disorder) and I take medication for it, one if your standard anti depressant (I call them my happy drugs lol) and the other is a sleep aid and antidepressant (mainly to combat my anxiety induced insomnia) I also have a problem I think is caused by past trauma (I was heavily abused mentally and verbally as a child for 8 years) and probably too much empathy, where reading/listening to really depressing stories makes me incredibly stressed and depressed. I also probably have some sort of body image issues because I’ve been told for a long time that I’m an attractive person, but I’ve never seen it and always considered myself below average or average at best, despite others claims. I’m not trying to sound like I’m bragging I’m sorry if I am I’m not good with socializing.
Why am I mentioning any of this? Because recently I’ve been on the downswing and it’s been bad, after forgetting to take my meds for a few days (I have really bad memory issues, probably caused by anxiety overloading my mind) and that has resulted in me listening to a lot of sad depressing stories about people’s lives, mainly cheating and relationship drama stuff, considering my past relationships have been very problematic and ended with me sinking a ton of time in for nothing but rejection for problems I didn’t know existed and people wanting an open relationship and even asking if they could hookup with somebody (I’m very sensitive to stuff like that and it makes me feel inadequate as a partner) so I’ve become very depressed after this, I’ve stopped listening to these stories don’t worry (I may be stupid but I knew they weren’t healthy) and am getting back on my meds but my hormones are way out of wack and I don’t think I can handle being online like this for a few days.
In case you’re wondering no, I don’t self harm and have no plan to commit anything, I have talked to professionals, and I have meds. I just needed to rant.
No worries friend, all are welcome here... as long as they meet the pre-requisite of boop enthusiast. (You love boops right? 😏)
Sorry you're having a rough time of things. Obviously since this is the first time we've met/spoken I couldn't even begin to say understand what you're going through...
What I will say is never feel ashamed of having a hard time or being depressed. You don't have to apologise for needing to vent, needing support or needing someone to listen.
Depression is an evil entity that preys on you when you're at your most vulnerable, and there are reasons that only you will truly understand for why its there, and it is not your fault you have it. For me, my depression was an autopilot voice playing in my head that I wasn't really listening to, but was constantly telling me how worthless and pathetic I was. The longer that voice spoke, the worse I felt, before I suddenly woke up and realised how empty and alone I felt.
You'll already have been taught about CBT and all that stuff, and one thing I will say is... I hate CBT, in the fact it sounds so trite and BS... but annoyingly it does actually work.
The goal of CBT is to train your mind to change what that voice in your head says. Your low self esteem and body image is an example of where you need to change what your internal voice says about you. It doesn't work overnight. It takes years, and even then you'll relapse from time to time and have to practise controlling that negative voice in your mind again... but the fact your already seeking help and support is a great first step.
Hope you're OK, and feel free to drop a line any time, you're never alone 😉
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Give em Carpal Tunnel by moving around awkwardly. GG.
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@SoGo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3812563#Comment_3812563
Thanks for the response!
Both of your ideas - bigger trap hitbox while runnning and trap rigging - sound really nice! I like them.
One thing I realized while reading the comments, is that, in theory, with the remote trap destroy function, you could simply destroy the trap the survivor is trying to use against you, solving both trap buffering and survivors using gaps to go around the trap while the Trapper can't.
He controls his traps...
With mind bullets! That's telekinesis, Kyle!
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I like it.
The one thing I always bear in mind with Trapper though, is while he is weak generally speaking, he is the undisputed king of basement, and is VERY hard to escape even for the most organised of teams… that identity shouldn't change, but it's always in the back of my mind to be careful of when thinking of any buffs. That in mind:
- Picking traps out of a locker is a feature I have wanted for ages. I always saw it as just despawn the furthest unopened trap from Trapper as he grabs it out of a locker. I'd give it a 45 second cooldown, so that it's not easy to use for spamming at basement, but otherwise would be great. Trappers sack obviously has to disable this ability though.
I also love Trapper's Bag (3 trap carry limit), it's my favourite add-on and would love it basekit. It allows you to set up traps effectively where you want, and still keep one on hand, while also giving you room to pick up traps as you go. I would love this add-on basekit.
. - Deep wounded is elegant. I suggested taking the 6 escape attempts down to 3 with the time to attempt an escape and the escape chance doubled, but this is just as good.
. - There is a balance with being able to reach the trap to disarm it vs. the hitbox, but yes this is annoying. Maybe a slightly increased hitbox when running might be good, so that walking can be used effectively to disarm?
In regards to preventing follow behind disarming, I liked the idea of Trapper spending an extra 1.5s or so when setting a trap to instead "rig" a trap. A rigged trap works like a bloody coil trap, and will wound a survivor trying to disarm it. Thinking about basement again, only 1 rigged trap can be placed within range of another rigged trap.
. - TBH with all the other changes in place, I think this is fine. There are lots of tricky little spots you can use on Trapper to exploit where survivors will be looking when looping, and set traps up in some really illogical places to catch survivors in such maps, and with these other changes in place, doing this kind of play would be much easier, so i think it's fine not to worry so much about this.
But yeah, pretty much all changes I'm adjacent or inline with. 🤘
- Picking traps out of a locker is a feature I have wanted for ages. I always saw it as just despawn the furthest unopened trap from Trapper as he grabs it out of a locker. I'd give it a 45 second cooldown, so that it's not easy to use for spamming at basement, but otherwise would be great. Trappers sack obviously has to disable this ability though.
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Not gonna lie… I kinda think us not having it is more of a kind mercy inflicted upon us… 😅
When tempers flare there is the need to go to the HUD, use the recently met system, navigate to message, type it out, only to be met with "blocked due to profile settings" message 9 times out of 10. The effort isn't worth it… by the time you get your message to the other side, you've had too long to calm down… so it actually remains kinda chill playing on console 😁
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@Gunshow said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3812469#Comment_3812469
I think people love Myers just because of who he is. His licence is doing a lot of the heavy lifting I'd say. His actual gameplay and tombstone add-ons feel antiquated. The latter of which do agree being the cause of his boosted kill-rate.
I love Myers/Halloween, but the clunkiness of his power and lack of any secondary utility or QoL features makes him feel very dated and in need of some love
I don't disagree, but one thing I will say is Myers is the best thematically realised killer in the game... the license can only take you so far if the gameplay doesn't match (Freddy), and as dated as his power is, he absolutely feels like you are playing Myers... both as and against.
He is also a lot of fun to build around; his power is simple, but it synergises really well with a lot of perks.
I'm not really making I point, but I suppose if I was it would be, I would rather he be weak and feel like Myers, than be strong and lose that feeling... and I imagine BHVR likely came together same conclusion... no need to update him, cause he's doing just fine 😅
Is why I've always pushed back very hard against things like teleports and wall phasing... itd be good... but it's just not Myers 😁
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@Gunshow said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3812432#Comment_3812432
I'm admittedly sceptical and feel that the "tweaks" will only be some number adjustments and rework of both Tombstone add-ons. I'm holding out hope though, if only for the fact that Myers has at least been acknowledged as existing, as he felt pretty much forgotten.
IMHO he needs a more thorough rework to bring his gameplay/power up to par with similar killers released since his introduction way back in 2016 when DBD was a very different game to what it is today.
I don't think he's been forgotten, just he's a victim of his own success... By and large people love Myers even if he is weak... he has something like the 8th highest pick rate in the game... and as the old saying goes, if it ain't broke...
Stats wise he performs well typically, hitting a 61% killrate in the last stats release, but of course the issue is that he's artificially propped up by Tombstone Piece, which is literally the best add-on in the game.
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@Hadji said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3812302#Comment_3812302
oh I see so that's the state of the game right now? survivors cry and whine about something so the devs just ruin the whole bundle, Good to know, Won't be bothering with future dlc if it means money can be spent down the drain because some crybabies can't read what abilities does.
Though I am too similarly upset about SM, to take a more positive spin: -
- She was at an abnormally high killrate at low and mid mmr of 68% from BHVRs own stats (even accounting for SoH).
- They did say she was "getting her wings clipped" for now to handle the major issue of survivors constantly DCing against her.
- She gotten some of the more aggregious nerfs reversed so she does at least function, which there was a very real possibility of getting nothing at all.
- This change is temporary until she can be reworked properly, which is targeted for 2025.
Hopefully now we can start getting past the scores of "just delete her" and "just rework her" discussions. Survivors have had their blood, now it's time to be productive and actually talk about how to rework her.
I still vote for going all in on making her a bonfied trap killer who creates a web of drones. Placing her drones to act as traps with a semi decent anti loop ability that isn't oppressive, poses a question of "do I leave loop and risk running into her web, or do I try and loop here vs. the drone", which the faster single scan line makes more than viable.
I'll probably throw up another thread about her in the future, but I'll wait to see where she lands first.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3812406#Comment_3812406
i don't think any killer is going to use it. the closest perk i see people using in their main stay is legion with blood echo. Zanshin tactics might have some chance prior to the change on pyramid head and huntress but no chance after the change.
What level of play are you thinking of my guy? This perk is gonna be decently strong around mid tiers where most players are.
When you say "any killer", do you mean the killers who go hard every game taking only the best perks they can to take on the strongest survivor SWF perk combos?
Cause I think you'd be very hard pushed to do anything to this perk to make it viable up at that level. Oblivious/Stealth is just not that strong against high level players and teams, it's why Ghost Face is plain ass and chips at higher levels. Even if you made it permanent that doesn't get reset period, with no condition on range from allies, it would still only be good on the fast killers like Blight or Oni, Billy with Muffler...
However for your mid tier players and SoloQ, this effect is gonna be tough to deal with, which is also true of Plaything... it's only good against mid tier players who need to break their totems, and even then, that's mostly just for Pentimento...
So while I don't disagree with you that yeah, its not a meta level strength perk, very few perks are (and to be frank, very few killers are)... what could you realistically do to it that would make it a meta perk without it being bonkers, especially at low and mid level?
To me this perk is now interesting, something you can make use of in niche scenarios that is interesting to build around, that's all I really want, whereas before it did nothing no matter what level of play you were at, nor how much build investment you put it.
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One of the funniest experiences of my DBD career was playing 2vs8 as survivor and noticing I was the only player repairing a gen for a solid 45 seconds...
I then got found and chased by Wraith, managed to survive for a whole minute, to the point then other killer helped... even then I survived another 20 seconds.
I was thrown on hook, still saw noone on gens, and after getting pulled off hook and healed went for another gen and managed to get it done by myself... only to be found again due to the notification bubble and take another 40 second chase. You guessed it, STILL no other gens popped or were even worked on.
Now on death hook, I focused on doing only the easy gens, my suspicions of my team heightened. I played like a total coward, immediately hopped in a locker the moment I didn't see 2 survivors in chase anymore.
Over the course of the next 4 minutes I completed 2 more gens and 75% of a third, before finally getting found and killed. This whole time bear in mind survivors were getting chased, they were getting downed, and rescued, and healed, etc etc... just everyone refused to touch a gen...
It was the most surreal DBD experience I ever had where I was genuinely watching the HUD in amazement at not seeing a single repair ring all game.
This was a pattern in every game I played. Survivors touch gens, killers lose, survivors pick their nose in a bush, killers win. Most games ended in a 6-8 man escape assuming survivors actually did stuff...
I'm sure cracked killers teaming up were brutal to face... but I almost never saw that, I only saw goomba survivors lose and non-goomba survivors win xD
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I see removing No Mither from Chaos Shuffle as the wrong solution, fixing the side effect instead of fixing the problem.
All this tells me is No Mither should be updated. The suggestion I tend to like is make it so you start the trial healthy, but can never be healed.
All the arguments here just put more feathers in that cap 😁
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3812298#Comment_3812298
You need to use it on a killer that punishes you for staying injured and actively want to slug like Oni. Maybe twins but twins already has add-on for undetectable. the perk is situational with very exploitable weaknesses since you can 99% a heal and then use med-kit to self-care the 1% to avoid activation of the perk and even when you do activate the perk, the perk has counter-play build into itself.
That's a good point.
I suppose Plaything is a little easier to predict the impact, since you can guarantee its effect and if a survivor wants to get rid of it they have to cleanse a totem. I would argue Plaything on its own is not particularly good, but at least it does always work.
New Deathbound does have counters the survivors can use, but its activation condition is permanently in effect and easier to trigger with no way to remove it other than getting injured by the killer. I would think it has to be a little more reserved because there is no way to remove the effect. I'd say this is quite strong vs. SoloQ, which is true of Plaything. Not so good against SWF, but to be fair, neither is Plaything.
Youbraise a good point Oni is one that becomes nasty with that combo for sure. Otherwise, you do have the option to not take it if you see a plethora of medkits in the lobby.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3812246#Comment_3812246
no, it triggers when another survivor heals another survivor AND the perk also doesn't grant oblivious if you stay together. so for example, say your co-op gen, you heal a survivor near gen then you start repairing. that person is not oblivious.
deathbound was atrocious bad perk and the current iteration is not any better. that is a lot of the problems with current perks for killer. A lot of killer are D-tier bad. A LONG list of them. like…. 80% of them because unlike survivor, they didn't get buffed or revisited at all. After being buffed, it is now C-tier perk.
buffing D-tier worthless perk to C-tier perk doesn't make player want to use it. None of the perks that got buffed were remotely worth nerfing. the most notable ones is Zanshin tactic which was b-tier good perk for killer but it got immediately nerfed for being remotely useful. now they just nerfed it back to C-tier.
At least blood echo and genetic limits are like average b-tier perks because exhaustion is very useful but it is like… i don't think killer want spend multiple perk slots to counter survivor perks.
it is so different from how survivor perk get buffed. they take a worthless healing perk resurgence which was like C-tier healing perk and now it is one of the best healing perks in the game when combine with med-kits. C-tier → into A-tier. it is wild for double standards of perk changes.
Ye all fair enough... but literally anytime a health state is healed, then healer becomes oblivious... that includes from.the dying state, and double the problem if 2 people heal.
This effect becomes quite the pain in the ass to deal with, because sticking together is not good... Spreading out to do gens in obviously better, but this perk makes that less appealing. You can even force the issue with somethimg like Discordance.
Can you imagine this perk on certain maps with a Bubba with Plaything? The survivor who got unhooked isn't gonna want to stay oblivious vs. Bubba, the healer isn't gonna want to follow them for their Plaything, but nor are they gonna want to have oblivious themselves either...
Is it in the same league as the meta perks of the game? No... but anything that isn't gen regression isn't gonna be. So things seem healthy to me.
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@Sngfun said:
As far as I know, haste and Hinder are multiplicative , but bloodlust isn't, and that's the rule you make the math around.
Not all killer Powers interact with haste, so be careful whith that.
Wow... today I learned... I thought everything was based on survivor base speed.... apparently not true, and existing haste effects are multiplied together.
This page is great, if cumbersome to understand movement speed:
Somehow I got the wrong end of the stick trying understand this page the first time until I cross checked your statement. Well played that man xD
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I feel like Shattered Hope should give you a stats buff for every destroyed totem, a bit like Fire Up.
Would be a nice alternative use of Hexes where you get stronger for each one that gets destroyed.
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@SkeletonDance said:
Why did they nerfed deathbound? It was already a weak plaything
A weak Plaything?
- It is permanent and can't be removed once acquired.
- It only requires an injury, not a hook to activate, supporting hit and run and slug tactics.
- It gives you info on where the oblivious survivor and injured survivor were, helping you pick up a tunnel.
- Forces survivors to stay together or injured if they want to mitigate the problem, meaning they can't spread out on gens.
- There is no limit on how many times it can be triggered.
Playthings main value is being a bait for Pentimento, other than that I find it hard to call the new Deathbound a "weak Plaything".
You put the 2 together, you basically become a stealth killer....
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3812207#Comment_3812207
Yeah, it might be a decent pick for solo queue. Nothing like meta changing but it actually does its job well now and I love to see it.
Though, I have to admit, when I saw it reveals the aura, a little part of me couldn't help but see it as a hilarious shaming perk...
I can already see Nancy running up to me cross map just to shake her head at me xD
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If a survivor let's go during a skill check anywhere on the map Corrective Action will prevent the 10% regression... 1 survivor takes the perk and everyone else benefits, that's actually not bad...
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@RFSa09 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3811880#Comment_3811880
You're not getting rewarded for hitting scan, you lose 5% speed (4.4) to maybe hit a survivor with a scan line that gives you 5% speed (which means literally nothing)
4.4m/s while I hold the radar. I change the direction of the scan line and distant decelerating to 4.4, I let go as I change the direction and start accelerating to 4.6m/s, survivor gets scanned, I start accelerating to 4.8m/s.
We haven't been told the duration of the haste. Could be 5 seconds, but that's the time within which the haste boost can be triggered, not the duration. If it is 5 seconds thats not great but in conjunction with the 8% hinder, not the worst... if the duration is her old 12s for a scan though, that's actually not bad.
EDIT: Though please don't confuse that for me being happy with things... I think haste is a cheap way to make her viable and would prefer it removed. I still want her to become a genuine trap killer.
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Tbh... I'll take it. I was expecting to get nothing but a "stuff you, wait for rework".
At least Skull Merchant kinda functions with these changes. As a temporary stop gap it's still pretty weak, but its not a god awful place for her to be... but at least she actually can do things if she's played well.
- 4.4m/s when using radar and setting drones means placing a drone/switching rotations isn't free, there's actually timing and mechanical execution required to do it well.
- 5% haste if I use the above ability well means I get rewarded for playing well, especially for potential 1-2 punches.
- 8% hindered is a tangible and decent threat.
- Rotation at 95 seems a little low, but at least its an improvement.
- Fast vault change, don't get this tbh, seems a little random and goes against conventional logic of what is happening in thia situation… but I guess if you time a scan right you might be able to mitigate it...
Not pleased overall... but I'll take a bone over nothing.