UndeddJester
UndeddJester
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
The Blindness on blink idea is something I've been thinking about for a while and I agree.
You can still use aura perks for info and while not blinking. Just no more blinking directly on top of auras for free hits.
The Heavy Panting addon (30% longer lunge after chain blink) also needs a nerf.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3818731#Comment_3818731
Matchbox Nurse has less counterplay than regular Nurse due to the increased movement speed, since survivors cannot make distance on her anymore while she's walking. Personally, that's not something I'd want to be made basekit. Nurse can be a very interactive killer for both sides as long as auras aren't involved (which the Blindness is intended to address) and Matchbox takes a lot of that away imo.
Cheers for the explanation! I did tend to do quite well on Matchbox Nurse, but I know it's not her being used to her potential...
I can just about play normal Nurse and put up a decent fight, and not usually get smashed on console... but it's really hard work on a pad, so I absolutely knew I wasn't qualified to speak on it really 😅
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I can even imagine survivors choosing to not escape to instead see the Mori 😁😁😁
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Short version, I'd like to see her become a genuine trap killer.
We haven't had one since Hag, and her lore paints her as a brilliant tactician and an obsessive perfectionist who plans for every contingency well in advance. If anyone was gonna be a new trap killer for DBD, it's Skull Merchant.
While I understand fundamentally Trap killers are not really well configured for the pace of Dead By Daylight at higher levels, they can be immensely satisfying for players so inclined, even if they aren't strong. If they can work stealth in as well seemlessly, that would be cool.
Perhaps something like she's a trap killer where drones are hidden and stationary on deployment, and any drone scan will immediately claw trap you (with no wound) and put you on her radar, and any subsequent scan then exposes the Survivor for so many seconds with a small hindered affect. I dunno, but whatever it is setting up and maintaining a web of drones would be far better received I feel.
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@Skillfulstone said:
This would be very nice, a while back I even proposed this exact thing in another thread XD.
There's also the fact that it's likely BHVR is looking to sell Mori animations in the future despite the Finisher Mori being rejected in the past (there is no positive from a gameplay and health standpoint that can come from the Finisher Mori system as it is now, our suggestion could mend this) and it would make the issue skyrocket.
The Finisher Mori system enhances the problem and multiple threads on multiple media platforms are already speaking about it, and making the system healthy would greatly help, especially with the likelyhood of Mori DLC.
I honestly wouldn't mind the Finisher Mori at all if it was an incentive to not slug for the 4k instead of rewarding players for doing it, it would even give "gigachad" players (8 hooks before any kills playstyle) a reward for doing so.
Ah crud, my bad man, didn't mean to steal xD
Attempt 2 at getting traction? 😁
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I must admit, I did feel like the removal of the condition was plenty of a buff for this perk… 150% felt kinda unnecessary as a change.
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I've often wondered why the tunneling machine that is Pyramid Head is so frequently left out of discussions regarding it...
I rather like this rework, especially the add-on ideas. Obsidian Goblet sounds awesome 😁
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If only it could be done... I think there is a limitation in the fact that hooks would need additonal meta data, defining zones for each map, and which zone of the map they are in... which may be a rather gargantuan task.
In lieu of this suggestion actually being made a reality...
I still wish Scourge Hook: Hangman's Trick gave you 2 more additional scourge Hooks.
- Synergises with its own effect.
- Matches its purpose as a perk to make it easier to reach a Scourge Hook.
- Makes it actually worth considering for a Scourge Hook build...
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@Grigerbest said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3819237#Comment_3819237
The main reason why I'm telling that time to struggle needs to be increased is because: When you get blinded while picking up a survivor or a pallet been dropped at you - you will not instantly drop them, but the bar will be instantly filled by 50% - means that you only have half the time to reach a hook. So I felt like the overall struggle time should be increased by a few seconds - so if you got blinded or stunned - you will have extra 2-3 sec.
And the reasons of why I want this perk to be buffed:
- Nobody uses this perk unless it's mixed for basement.
- Survivors have a really nasty build which include: sabo, boil over, etc (you know).
They intentionally go down at the pallets, dead zones (from hooks), on the highs\second floors. Some of the newer killer players don't really know how to "fight it", and the "fight" - slugging. But slugging as a beginner killer = lose precious bp. And it's not fun.
With this perk - new killer players will have more of a chance\second chance to hook a survivor, and learn without hurting their experience. It's still obviously not going to be a useful perk for experienced players.
Ah I getcha, that does make sense... though I feel it could be argued one way or the other…
Personally as a perk identity, I feel like it's Agitation's purpose to help you reach far off hooks. Iron Grasp makes more sense as a perk to make it harder to lose a hook to me... with this change Iron Grasp basically does both and makes Agitation rather obsolete, and I don't see a way you could buff Agitation with Iron Grasp in this state to ever make it useful without making the combination of the 2 utterly busted for basement strats.
So to explore it, Tlthere is the scenario you describe where a killer getting stunned by a pallet will need that extra time to account for the 50% progress... but there is also the scenario where they don't get stunned by a pallet, and the distance they can walk is kinda monstrous at an additional 30%... I would argue that with that carry time it is quite effective for certain killers to prop them up at higher levels via making basement much more reachable… and I'm mostly looking at the 3 killers I mentioned.
Obviously Trapper and Bubba aren't strong/oppressively strong, but they are undisputed kings of the basement camp, and I can definitely see that perk becoming a must have on both of them, even just using the threat of Iron grasp into basement alone to create a 3 or 4 gen... However then of course there is Huntress, who can also punish basement hard just as well, and would be a pretty nasty snowball to overcome, and she certainly is not a weak killer to have that kind of power....
If the goal is to help out newer players securing hooks vs. pallet stuns, I would consider a smaller wiggle progress hit than 50% instead (say 25-33% progress), without giving any/too much of a timer increase.
I think it acheives the same goal, but allows Iron Grasp and Agitation to occupy different identities.
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It's certainly powerful… but the basements man…
There's already a need to run far from basement vs. killers that can really punish hooks in basement, even if it means you're running into a dead zone it's worth going down, because of the snowball power it can bring… can you imagine Huntress, Bubba and Trapper with this? You're going into the pit almost every time at some point 😱😱😱
The resisting stuns with a 50% struggle progress is a potentially good idea though (I might say 40% progress, as 50 is still very harsh for reaching hooks). Still counterable for Survivors via extra commitment with body blocking and sabos, but it does make "go down under pallet" strategies much more counterable and makes it much less troublesome defending a down… So while I think the duration probably should stay the same, this change is certainly interesting, and would really help killers who lack the lethality to effectively push survivors away 🤔
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I feel like Teamwork: Power of Two and Blood Pact are too similar myself… I'd kinda like Blood Pact to get a new affect entirely. No idea what, but something that gives in more of a unique identity that feels more like a "Blood Pact"; something healing related. Off the top of my head without thinking too much, and purely since slugging is being talked about all the time now, maybe something like:
While within 4m of the Obsession both you and the obsession:
- Can recover from the dying state.
- Self heal at 60% of the normal heal speed (26.67s).
This would naturally synergise with Soul Guard also from Cheryl, gives a potential anti-slug perk that requires coordination to use. 4m is a harsh range so would not be very effective for trying to loop the killer on top of the Blood Pact player, and it's harder for a SWF to abuse cause they'd have to take very specific perks to control who gets assigned the obsession. They'd probably benefit more from Boon: Exponential.
It also allows for faster resets. If combined with Botany Knowledge, would reach 90% heal, which for you would be 17.77s, which isn't a slouch.
There is the problem of course of the Obsession surviving long enough to recover then just falling on top of the slugged survivor for them to get up…. WIth WGLF and Made For This already being an anti-slug combo, I'm not sure if it would be healthy…but you get the idea. Blood Pact needs to feel more of a "Bloody" perk to my mind.
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I not sure it really needs it tbh…
I've found Poised is pretty solid for value in it's current state. It massively aids your start up information to start battling 3 gens while the killer is at their weakest, not far removed from a Survivor version of Lethal Pursuer.
If combined with Eyes of Belmont I've been able to get auras on the killer both when Gens are started, and when Gens complete, and it's been able to completely ditch the killer a few times with this combo while in chase. EoB gives you a free win on a mind game, that if the killer guesses wrong and loses sight of you, you can completely vanish due to no scratch marks from Poised… it's pretty decent…
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That's a fun idea to think about. Have some thoughts about the Casting of Frank Stone thinking of this. Ofc Casting of Frank Stone spoilers, do not read if you haven't played it.
Seriously… don't, I'd recommend any DBD fan plays it and goes in absolutely blind.
Frank Stone seems like a good contender for such a power, since Augustine crafted him to be a "perfect killer" for the Entity… but as I was looking at him I couldn't really see a power he could have for Dead by Daylight based on how he was presented in the game.
All of the things you could consider "abilities" were not things he himself could control, the tape reels, the projection onto our plane while he's an ethereal being, the portalling through to our plane of existence through the Murder Mill cut in his final form… all of that wasn't Frank Stones power to control, it was actually the opposite, things that contained him and limited his interaction in our world.
I doubt we'll see Frank Stone come to DBD, mostly because that would require a sort of "canonical" ending to be defined to the Casting of Frank Stone… However it's fun to think about…
Whomever the Killer would be, the main problem with an idea such as this, is how on earth would you provide add-ons? Likely you'd need to focus on m1 killer basic interactions as the base for add-ons, such as interactions for terror radius, pallet breaking, basic attack recovery, vaulting speed, pick up speed, generator kick strength, other basekit m1 killer abilities, etc, etc. but that of course doesn't make them particularly interesting for high level play, I doubt such a character would ever be close to the meta.
Even if they were somewhat functional in the meta… then you have to worry about this character only being as viable as the perk combos they can use. There would be no other way to balance them since they are 100% reliant on the perks available to them… Every time a perk comes to be nerfed or buffed this killer would be the one most affected.
I struggle to see how it could work, but it is fun to think about, and it would make this killer the ultimate "learn the game" killer :D
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I like Strength is Shadows from Sable for this build, cause it actually works out to be 105% heal speed, so barring the time to run to basement, it's faster than being healed by a teammate, and you get an aura read on the killer too.
It's usually better than using Self Care since you usually have to run to somewhere safe with Self Care as well, and then take the 30s heal. However the 15s you save on SiS, not only does it often net better time efficiency, it lets you know where to go afterwards, regardless of if you want to do gens or support a teammate.
Unless the killer figures out you have it, they will usually not check basement due to the time investment required. Or at least, not check it in time.
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@Seraphor said:
While I agree with the premise that dying survivors lacking agency is the main problem, it is entirely by design thst dying survivors cannot further objectives, even side objectives. This is what generates pressure to rescue dying survivors.
Even having actions at reduced rate could be problematic. Imagine you down someone repairing a gen that's at 95%, and another survivor is right there ready to finish it. That is probably the most understandable scenario to slug someone for pressure, but it would be a lose-lose scenario if the dying survivor could finish those repairs even at a third of the speed. The whole premise seems to be punishing the wrong kind of slugging, as it's not going to help in the most egregious cases of killers bleeding you out in spite.
I think what they need to add for dying survivors is a way to exact personal agency. So that you have more control over yourself and your positioning, and your chances of survival.
By allowing dying survivors to 'sprint' with a cost to bleedout time, you may only be adding one single action, but it's still an action that can be taken.
- Hold sprint to crawl twice as fast and bleedout twice as fast.
You can find a safe spot where you can be rescued, which also costs the killer for leaving you if they're then unable to find you or prevent another survivor rescuing you, however this doesn't eliminate the pressure of slugging that something like Unbreakable or the abiliy to further objectives would do.
It would also have the effect of providing a quicker route out of the game if the killer is just bleeding you out obnoxiously.
This shouldn't impact the value of Tenacity, as that would still provide simultaneous recovery and eliminate the bleedout cost.
I do think there should be another effect that only triggers when ALL survivors are slugged, which allows ONE survivor to be able to recover themselves. As this would only cone into play when slugging is used not for pressure, but for 'checkmate' when downing all four at the start of the game or preventing the hatch from spawning.
That's more than fair. Just the bleedout/crawl faster/louder grunts change on its own (probably turned up a bit more) would do a lot to alleviate a lot of the pain points around being slugged, without changing the value of slugging for the killer.
I think it plenty ofcredibility as a suggestion just on its own. My suggestions in the OP were potential features to consider for inclusion, but my hope was to get an idea for which ones would be beneficial and which ones don't.
And tbh... if Survivor can accelerate their bleedout in scenarios where the whole team gets slugged/slugged for the 4k, that on its own is probably enough. A faster crawl allows a slugged survivor to meaningfully try to reach hatch.
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@nikodemo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3818778#Comment_3818778
i've got everything except this and one window grab on Killer.
this chieve forces me to play surv indefinitely.
i haven't seen a Vecna since launch. i've never gotten his relics.
How weird... I've seen like one every couple of evenings or so…
However looking at Nightlight.gg he does seem to have a pretty low pick rate at 21/37... at 2.29%.... he's in about 1 in 50 games, which isn't great admittedly.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3818497#Comment_3818497
The hook timer is substantially shorter and part of the normal gameplay loop.
every time i read posts like this, first part that always ticks me off is the "Not part of gameplay loop". Slugging IS part of normal gameplay loop. in fact, it is so much part of normal gameplay loop that it is impossible to not be slugged any given in trial as long you lose the chase as the survivor. even if it only few seconds on average that you stay on the floor after being knocked down, that is still part of slugging process.
Second part to talk about is… this concept of agency. The only form of agency that hooking allows which isn't good agency is killing yourself on hook. self-suicide. if only important part of agency is giving up on hook, than we seriously have to consider like the leave match option and d/c penalty because d/c/leave from the game is greatest form of agency in regards to that.
Well I don't think I was trying to make a point that slugging was something I'm trying to get rid of... which is normally the point being made in regards to slugging not being "a normal part of the gameplay loop". The normal gameplay loop I was referring to is both players advancing their objective, hooking is the normal gameplay loop of advancing the killers objective, slugging is not directly.
I of course understand the concept of slugging for pressure, and don't think I have made any suggestion here that significantly reduces the slowdown and pressure of slugging... if you think I have done otherwise, if you want to point to it then I'd be happy to discuss it rather argue over abstract concepts.
Regarding agency I said being able to attempt unhooks/ suicide for hatch was one aspect...
The actual main point of agency I made is, the short time frame requires the player to stay aware of the match situation... and doing so means you're formulating decisions on what to do when you come off hook. This decision making is often something you actually get to act upon on hook, since while on hook you are effectively "safe" from the killer, and the usual outcome is you do get unhooked.
The same is not true of being slugged. You are down for 4 minutes potentially, you have 0 ability to decide anything, you are not "safe", and thus your investment in keeping up with the match is often not rewarded. Often while slugged you will watch your teammates get slugged with nothing you can do except watch, and if you get picked up you tend to get immediately slugged back down again. The usual outcome however is the killer eventually picks you up and hooks you anyway. In this way the slugged survivor has no meaningful decisions to make because often any decisions or ideas they have been considering end up not mattering and this gets worse the longer you are slugged.
All suggestions I've made here give a player who is excessively slugged something to do. None of it is strong, and is far from being problematic as I can see.
If I'm saying anything that is bad faith or illogical do please tell me, cause I don't think I'm making an unreasonable point...
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@Emeal said:
Odds are calculated to be 0.22%, or about 1 in 455 matches.
I hate to see a guy in pain though, Do you play Europe? if so ill jump on tonight in about 3 hours Berlin time, Ill play all night Vecna.
Really? Cause I've done this achievement effectively 4 times, with only 1 being during Vecnas actuals hay day... I get this achievement about once every month or so, and that's without really going for it.
I'm pretty sure people forget that Vecna chests respawn items after 2 minutes. If it spawns a basic item just pick it up and remove it from the chest and another item will be spawned.
You should be able to open 3 - 5 chests at least against Vecna, which gives you a 14 - 24% chance of getting a Vecna item each time you face him.
Granted its not an easy challenge, but given there are some really awful challenges in DBD that are gonna take plenty of your time to do anyway, this is one that just naturally comes within the time of going for other Survivor achievements.
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@fussy said:
Maybe i'm crazy for that, but isn't 4,4 Nurse with 1 blink is much more balanced than usual one? I don't have strong opinion on that, because I almost don't play her, but these few times I play as and against 4,4 Nurse, it felt much more fair. Maybe even make her so he can blink only in places which she can see and make her addons overhaul based on that.
Btw, love your posts, they are very interesting to read, even if I don't agree with something.I actually do like Matchbox Nurse a lot, and I'd not at all be upset to see this change personally. The only things that pulls me back from it however are: -
- I would have a hard time justifying to everyone who plays Nurse having the time and effort they put into learning her multi-blinks all being for naught.
- Her being 3.95m/s is such a unique aspect of Nurse that I can't in good conscience get rid of it...
- Having its as a alternative playstyle via an iri is what I feel iri's should be, and I think Nurse' Matchbox add-on is one of the best.
I've also heard people criticise Matchbox Nurse as having to some rather painful zoning potential, where her being 4.4 can put you in lose/lose scenarios... but that's 3rd party info, and I'm not skilled enough to say I can affirm or deny, so take that with a pinch of salt...
Also thank you so much! I very much appreciate people taking the time to read and respond to my guff. 😁
It's always pleasant when people agree with you ans affirm your perspective, but when people disagree, I learn a lot and greatly benefit from the wealth of experience available here, so in a lot of ways I actually prefer to read posts that have the opposing point of view.
I either expand my knowledge to form a better argument, or I sometimes have to compromise, or completely rethink my whole position entirely 😁🤘
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One thought I will add though is there is the issue of sabo saves, which is a very valid argument against allowing a slugged survivor from doing totems or generators. A killer vs. a slugged survivor they had to drop in to the dying state, cannot effectively do anything to stop the survivor repairing the generator...
However this could easily be fixed by saying "performing a conspicuous action while in the dying state resets wiggle progress". So that would be a good improvement to the suggestion, which I've edited in.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3818193#Comment_3818193
All agency is taken from your hands and you're just forced to either be bled out be rescued by someone who may not even come.
this sentence right here can be 100% copied, 1:1 for hooks. this was my point.
killers that wanna troll cant just keep picking you up then knocking you again just to extend your time in match
that is toxic version of using slugging. killers used to have a name in old days for survivors that did not end the game and would purposely spend time abusing infinity loops because during that time, killer vault 3x slower, there was no entity blockers and bloodlust did not exist. if it was a swf doing this, they were refer to as "Bully squads" because their entire objective was to bully and be toxic as possible to the killer. so you'd just have a survivor that macro click his flashlight 1000x times in your ear vaulting an infinity window over and over to just prologue the game forever. they removed all this stuff from survivor.
Unfortunately killer can do similar toxic behavior with slugging where they can pick you up, have you wiggle out, hit you on floor again and just waste your time. you'll have killer that nod and hump and have you do this painful 4 minute process for you to bleed out. None of this gameplay. the killer is using slugging to be annoying just like survivors used to use flashlights and unfair vaults to do same thing in the past. they never bother to try address this toxic killer gameplay…. well they tried address it once by introducing this "finisher" mori system which would grant survivors unlimited base-kit unbreakable every 45 seconds in order implement some instant mori system when all 4 survivors were on the floor. they attempt to address this in a negative light towards gameplay.
it's more interactive than just crawling for the sake of crawling.
The slugging that i am refer to is when killers are slugging and attempting kills survivors through slugging. Like actual gameplay related to slugging. Crawling around is still more gameplay than being perfectly stationary on a hook. in many ways, your moving position of hooks ever so slightly as you crawl forward to your teammates.
In most cases, when killer talk about slugging, they're not talking about toxic mindless slugging end game, they're usually talking about their early-game and mid-game slugging.
I do understand your point, and you are both correct and incorrect.
Being hooked is certainly comparable to being slugged, and a hooked player has substantially less agency than standing, but there are 2 key differences that give it more agency vs. being slugged: -
- The hooked player still has agency in the form of unhook attempts to try and escape or sacrifice themselves. The player can still have meaningful input into the events of the trial.
- The hook timer is substantially shorter and part of the normal gameplay loop.
This means that a player who is hooked is still engaged in the trial and needs to retain knowledge of the current situation, such as gens repaired, survivor state, killer position, perks in play, etc, etc. Using that information, the player has the agency to decide to take the risk of an unhook, or die for hatch. This obviously comes with the problem of quitting, but assuming the player can be trusted not to abuse the mechanism (which they sadly can't), the point is the player is very much engaged in the trial and still CAN make meaningful decisions. Their engagement is often rewarded after being saved, unhooking themselves, or sacrificing themselves to accept a loss for the potential benefit of teammate.
This was my original point, you don't need to have good decisions to make, but you do need decisions. A hooked player has decisions and needs to remain vigilant in their assessment of the trial state.
A slugged player on the other hand has significantly less agency. Without appropriate perks: -
- They can not possibly save themselves.
- They can not sacrifice themselves for hatch.
- They can barely move so escaping the killer and reaching anywhere is very unlikely, as well as the fact they cannot partake in any other aspects of the trial.
- They are stuck in this state for 4 minutes.
This means that their agency, especially in regards to being slugged for the 4k, is basically non existent. If another team member is alive and not being chased they have some agency is regards to move or recover, but they themselves move so slow there is still effectively no decision for them to make 99% of the time. If no other team member is available, there is genuinley nothing to do, no way to meaningfully affect the trial from this point on. Compared to being hooked, remaining invested in the trial is more frequently punished by being picked up by the killer anyway, slapped back down as you stand up even more so in the case of being 4k slugged because that effort is 99. 9% of the time wasted effort. This is the fundamental difference between being hooked and being slugged.
Obviously I believe survivors being slugged in the trial should basically play out the same as it does now most of the time. The killer won that chase, and shouldn't be punished for doing so. I would of course be vehemently against basekit Unbreakable.
I am also against giving an option to quit as a slugged player like being hooked does, as it is against the killers objectives to bleed out a survivor, it is not considered a "kill", and of course I do believe the killer should have a right to go for the 4k without having to gamble on hatch. However with that ethos, short of allowing a player to sacrifice themselves for hatch, the slugged player needs something else to do rather than just wait to lose...
... and in that regard I feel this very conservative set of basekit abilities makes the whole idea of slugging, and especially slugging for the 4k much more interesting for everyone involved.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/429712/chucky-is-a-battleground-for-dbds-soul
I just wanted to add this to the discussion…
Scamper takes 0.4 seconds less seconds to go under a pallet than it does to perform a Fast Vault on a pallet as Survivor. Even if you didnt mindgame, youd still gain distance on the Survivor from using Scamper, which was the main complaint at the time.
If Scampering was slower but was more mindgame focused, it would be perfectly fine since it has a risk/reward element with the amount of distance you would make/lose on the Survivor.
This all made skill expression on Chucky much harder and less rewarding.
Survivor drops a pallet? Scamper underneath, Survivor loses distance. Survivor vaults a pallet? Scamper underneath, Survivors loses distance. You really did not have to think. Im really tired of people acting like Scamper Chucky had some high level of skill to get hits when they really didnt.
Cooldowns dont "limit skill expression," mechanics do. Look at Wesker for example, Wesker has a lot of techs and tricks to playing them, Id argue that they have the highest skill expression in the game at the moment, but they have a longer cooldown than current Chucky, and this is solely because the mechanics behind Wesker are what elevate their skill expression here.
Skill Expression vs. Character Identity.
I dont think it is "skill expression vs character identity," I think it is "balance vs character identity."
Nemesis is a good example. Within the RE games, Nemesis is designed to be this giant unkillable wall that hunts you down and obliterates everything in it's path, but in DBD, they have to be toned down for balance. This also applies to other characters with high strength or have a god-like nature to them; because the game dictates that balance is required over lore accuracy.
Survivor drops a pallet? Scamper underneath, Survivor loses distance. Survivor vaults a pallet? Scamper underneath, Survivors loses distance. You really did not have to think. Im really tired of people acting like Scamper Chucky had some high level of skill to get hits when they really didnt.
Just to be clear, you do know the point I was making was because scamper existed there was little skill expression in Chucky's kit? S&D was far more punishing if you missed, and scamper was easy and safe exactly as you describe... so why try the harder S&D hits vs. The safer and easier scamper hit?
I think we agree... but just want to check ^^
@GeneralV said:
Chucky is… an interesting one.
He fits the game, as most horror icons do, and that is already a massive W. His pseudo-stealth and footsteps are awesome, they really help with the horror atmosphere, which is an important aspect of the game.
3rd person point of view and the ghost of Charles Lee Ray appearing when hooking a survivor are unique aspects, and we all appreciate having unique killers. I'm not the biggest fan of his voice lines, but I understand why most people like them.
However, when we get to the aspects of his power that got changed due to balance… well, I think both versions were terrible. I am really tired of movement based killers (and M2 zoning, but that is for another discussion) so regardless of what they do with Slice & Dice I don't think it will ever be fun to go against.
Edit: There are polls on the Forums, friend:
@[Deleted User] said:
The game has to be fun; that is much more important than making a character subjectively feel like they do in their source material. Ideally you can do both, but the former is essential and the latter is just desirable.
Chucky is a miserable slog to play against in his current state and his original state was similar. I appreciate the music and some of the thematic elements, but the voice lines after you get downed are so irritating. It's like a basekit BM after one of the most broken attacks in the game lands.
Edit: And there are polls on the forum.
Thanks folks! Today I learned 😁😁😁😁
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@ChaosWam said:
I really think being able to do gens while slugged defeats the purpose of why some killers slug.
Not that I'm defending 4-man slug tactics, that needs something for sure, but the reason some killers will slug one or two survivors is because they need to slow down gen progression. Same with proxy-camping and tunneling to an extent. And I doubt we want gens to take even longer if you're asking for survivors to be able to do their objective at all times unless on hook. Exit gate progression while slugged is also counter to how endgame is played out.
Some of your other ideas are pretty good though, I will say. Not so sure about chests and items, but using totems as a way to pick yourself up could be interesting. Even make it where hexes prevent it, or at least make it 50% slower. It would also make Pentimento more useful outside of hex builds (which would possibly require a nerf to some numbers, depending on the potency) and possibly make deerstalker a near-meta perk alongside Penti to keep an eye if the survivor picks themselves up with a totem.The last thing you said indicates there might have been somethimg I was unclear on there... so just in therr is is confusion...
When I say pick themselves up on gens and totems, I didn't mean the survivor pick themselves up out of the dying state. I meant they pull themselves off the floor to prop themselves up to work of the gen or totem (which takes 10s), and then they start repairing/cleansing woth penalty...
However they are still in the dying state, completing ot or letting drops them back to the floor. I was describing animations, but I think that might have made it unclear 😅
I've edited that correction in just in case 😅
However interesting thoughts regardless, still mulling that over 🤔
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@Aceislife said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3817384#Comment_3817384
But Joel did stand by his own actions. In the final scene of Joel and Ellie talking for the last time. I'm sure you've heard the sentence "If somehow the Lord gave me a second chance at that moment, I would do it all over again.". And Joel IS the villain in the eyes of the rest of the world for what he did. Although the TLOU universe doesn't really have heroes or villains. But Joel is a huge piece of **** for what he did. He prevented the possibility of a cure because of his personal pain and trauma, which he wasn't going experience again. In the best case scenario society could have been restored.
Part 2 is about Ellie and his journey to getting over Joel's death. Part 1 already shows what Joel did, and it ends with Joel lying in an attempt to win Ellie over to his side. And not that it matters but Ellie was 14, I know that could be a typo but still.Like I could rewrite a few plot elements and it then kinda works.
1) Abby doesn't luckily wander into Joel and him being a complete idiot to give himself up. Instead she manages to capture Ellie and Dina who because of there awkward brewing relationship are lapsadasical about their safety, use that as the bait to get Joel out of Jackson.
2) Instead of Ellie going after Abby for revenge, have Tommy go for revenge instead. Have Ellie go after him to bring him home alive since he's her only tie to Joel left. Have all the other major events play out the same.
3) Have the final battle with Abby and Ellie, Tommy is shot in the head and wounded the same way, and have Ellie ultimately win the fight vs. Abby.
4) With Abby at gun point have Abby and Ellie talk about Joel and him saving Ellie's life. Have Ellie ask Abby about that day, talk about how Abby had to talk her father into doing it and how Marlene threatened Joel to leave. Have Ellie face the fact that Joel gave up on the cure so that she could live, the circumstances that led to him doing it. End it with Ellie leaving Abby alive, a mutual understanding between each other of why things played out the way they did, and Ellie leaving all the blood of Abby's dead comrades at the hands of Tommy and Ellie as part of their war on Abbys head.
5) End at the farmhouse with Ellie and Dina, with Tommy now wheelchair bound but all living their life together.
Wouldn't all of this be a far less miserable plot that gets the same message across, where Joel's death actually helps Ellie grow as a person, where she took the higher path without it being the catalyst for her to lose everything in her life? It shows the same desperate people do desperate things, and Ellie can have the scene where she tortures Abbys dying friend, but this time its to save Tommy rather than be this stupid quest for revenge?
This would be a much more uplifting story with the same message that doesn't require Ellie to make a ridiculous set of bad decisions. I mean as an example... why TF does she get Abby out of being a slave? Why not just leave her to her fate... why are you risking your life here? It's just dumb... and this new version bypasses this whole set of stupid scenes.
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@Aceislife said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3817384#Comment_3817384
But Joel did stand by his own actions. In the final scene of Joel and Ellie talking for the last time. I'm sure you've heard the sentence "If somehow the Lord gave me a second chance at that moment, I would do it all over again.". And Joel IS the villain in the eyes of the rest of the world for what he did. Although the TLOU universe doesn't really have heroes or villains. But Joel is a huge piece of **** for what he did. He prevented the possibility of a cure because of his personal pain and trauma, which he wasn't going experience again. In the best case scenario society could have been restored.
Part 2 is about Ellie and his journey to getting over Joel's death. Part 1 already shows what Joel did, and it ends with Joel lying in an attempt to win Ellie over to his side. And not that it matters but Ellie was 14, I know that could be a typo but still.It's been years since I went through it, obviously I haven't gone through it since. So my memories of it are hazy.
Anyway, the point you've made there is the common thread with every discussion I've ever had on TLOUp2. Basically whether you like or dislike TLOUp2 is entirely dependent on 1 question.
Do you think Joel was justified in saving Ellie or not?
If you don't, you consider Joel a piece of ######### for killing the scientist and preventing the cure. As such TLOUp2 caters to that point of view, and we get the events of the game play out. The common trend with this perspective is people tend to be very cynical about Joel's actions. The lie to Ellie for example isn't to win her over to his side, it's to spare her the pain of the reality that they were going murder her and he was forced to kill them all.
If you do, you consider Joel a redeemed man who saved the girl he swore to always be there for from being murdered, at the expense of a potential cure. You don't see his actions as selfish or evil because we know the uncaring husk of a man Joel was before would have left Ellie to die...
.
.
The problem is the story catering to the perspective of the former would be fine... if it was executed well. The world perceiving Joel as the villain is fine, as is him being killed (though the events that led to it needed to handled much better)... but the point is we have a depressing story that kills off our protagonist in a pretty pathetic way... then rips everything away from Ellie who never resolved her survivors guilt with Joel due to that pathetic death... and I suppose the question I have for you is why?
Why does any of this story need to be told? What value does it add? What morales or interesting points and introspection does it offer the player?
Cause from where I'm sitting it's just a miserable story with a miserable end and nothing interesting to say... we just killed off a fan favourite character and shat on the life of the other fan favourite character just to tell you revenge is bad... and it's like well gee thanks...
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@Aceislife said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3817329#Comment_3817329
The reason why I think they did that, is probably because of how important a cure would be. Marlene even says "Because this is not about me. Or even her." I'd imagine at that point they didn't want to take any risks, and thought about how the life of 1 could potentially save… You know, a lot of people. One of the key points in the plot of part 1 is about how Ellie is the exception the Fireflies never had. And make no mistake, Ellie would have wanted it as she confirms it in Part 2. And I'm not trying to change your mind.
Sure, that's a fair point, and we know that Ellie would have given her life from hindsight… but you can't use knowledge from the future, to condemn Joel in part 1. We have to assess the scenario from Joel's perspective at the point he made the decision… and as I said before, Ellie is suffering from survivors guilt in TLOUp2. She doesn't want to die, and saying she'd be happy to give her life when she no longer has to and is suffering with survivor's guilt is quite easy, but it's a different matter when you actually have to do it… and she was 12.
Ellie did not know that she was going to die for the cure, and she was never given a choice. We know that Marlene cared about Ellie really, but if you were Joel, could you know for sure that was true? Especially when she's willing to cut out her brain on the operating table for a cure that realistically has a low chance of working? The fact Ellie would have done it is immaterial when assessing Joel's actions, and that's the fundamental problem of TLOUp2. It's dictating to us what we should think, not in the way that its telling this story, but in the way that Joel himself doesn't even stand by his own actions, and every single character pulls the same conclusion. It paints him as a villain that he simply is not.
As I say, if Abby had her pay off where she acknowledged that Joel wasn't deserving of her revenge, and she was wrong to kill him, that would have worked as a story, and kept the message of the first game intact… but it didn't, it shaped everything to us that Joel was selfish and completely in the wrong for his actions… then it spent the rest of the game trying to tell us Abby isn't so bad, and then having Ellie trying to kill her and ruin her own life in the process.
Its like what do you want me to feel TLOUp2? Cause what I actually feel is any of my investment in the characters and story from p1 was completely wasted. It was bold… but pointless.
Cheers for the engaging discussion btw…. obviously I'm a little upset and passionate talking about TLOPUp2, but nothing but respect for yourself mate ^^
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3817306#Comment_3817306
- Survivors in the dying state can swap items on the floor/in chests. → Flashbangs on the floor, someone helps you up and boom)
- Survivors in the dying state can use keys and maps, both for reading auras. → can be used to dodge the killer to drag time.
- Survivors in the dying state can use keys to open hatch. → prevents killer from getting a 4k (they have already won at this point)
- Survivors in the dying state can interact with totems taking 10 seconds to pull themselves up to support themselves, and cleanse the totem with a 30% action penalty. → Boon: Exponential
- Survivors in the dying state can interact with a generator, taking 10 seconds to pull themselves up to support themselves on the generator and allowing them to repair the generator at a 30% action penalty. → Gen complete + Adrenaline
- A Survivor that has recovered to 95% or more in the dying state can press the rush button to move 50% faster, bleed out 50% faster, and make 50% more noise. → can be used to dodge the killer to drag time.
You seem to be misunderstanding a number of points….
Survivors in the dying state can swap items on the floor/in chests. → Flashbangs on the floor, someone helps you up and boom)
How exactly does a flashbang being grabbed while on the floor and then being picked up differ from being picked up and taking a second to pick up the flashbang? If you're implying dropping a flashbang as you get picked up to save yourself, I never said you could use flashbangs while in the dying the state.
Survivors in the dying state can use keys and maps, both for reading auras. → can be used to dodge the killer to drag time.
- You're moving at 0.7m/s, a key doesn't help you do any meaningful movements to avoid being found over what happens normally.
Survivors in the dying state can use keys to open hatch. → prevents killer from getting a 4k (they have already won at this point)
If you make it to hatch with a key at 0.7m/s undetected by the killer you deserve hatch.
Survivors in the dying state can interact with totems taking 10 seconds to pull themselves up to support themselves, and cleanse the totem with a 30% action penalty. → Boon: Exponential
Cleanse != Boon, I never said boon, I said cleanse.
Survivors in the dying state can interact with a generator, taking 10 seconds to pull themselves up to support themselves on the generator and allowing them to repair the generator at a 30% action penalty. → Gen complete + Adrenaline
Adrenaline is hardly overpowered in its modern state, and see the above point here:
@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3817325#Comment_3817325
if we want to address both issues, we should first look at the very source of problem. Make hooking more appealing, wait to see how intense slugging becomes after and then, if problem with slugging still isn't fixed, advance to addressing it.
I'm not trying to solve fact slugging is rampant now. It's always been something that is a problem where the killer tries to slug the whole team. Knockout gets talked about often as an unhealthy perk for this very reason, and people have LONG been talking about slugging for the 4k for ages as a problem. This is nothing new, it's been a talking point for well over 5 years… so whether or not they fix the state of hooking as it is now, is irrelevant to the point I'm making… a slugged player has no agency.
gen repair, even at lower speed, is a big no, as well as gate opening while being slugged, totem cleansing too.
Ok, but again, you're just stating, without providing a point… if a survivor is slugged, they have to crawl to the generator.
For reference crawl speed is 0.7m/s, which is 1/6th of their normal speed. On average after losing the killer in chase, I'd say it takes me at least 10 seconds on average to make it back to a gen? That's a whole minute just to get there while slugged (30s more if I recover first). Then we have another 10 seconds to pick themselves up, then say the gen is 50%, that's another ~60s…. Bear in mind, the survivor is only alive for another 1 minute and 30s at this point…
So tell me, what's so unhealthy? The killer would have literally had to ignore the slugged survivor for well over 2 minutes. To fully repair a gen from nothing, the survivor is almost dead by the time they get that done.
the very mindset of average survivor player is what would make it unhealthy, i've already seen quite a lot people getting mad at others for pointing out problems with slugging and it's relations with hooking. One dude posted it on twitter and mass of people kept commenting stuff like
"shouldn't bigger challenge be more fun"
"skill issue"
"we deserve to have something against toxic killers" etc.
People have been extremely spoiled and they don't want any solution that will benefit health of the game for both sides, they just want that side they play gets benefits.
The mindset makes it unhealthy? A survivor being annoyed at the killer for slugging instead of unhooking makes it unhealthy? The two aren't related my man…
I play both killer and survivor, and I can't think of a single situation where a slugged survivor like this is gonna have me "OMG! That slugged survivor did <whatever>, I couldn't have possible done anything about that!". You're accusing me of making suggestions purely for the benefit of Survivor side… I'm gonna give you the benefit the doubt and assume you're new, but I've been quite vocal about in support of a lot of buffs to killer side just as often…
This I feel is a genuine issue for survivor, and I've made what to me is a sensible and reasonable suggestion, that isn't overpowered, isn't unfair. Being slugged means you can't take part at all in the game again, until someone on either side picks you up… that is a problem, and is why slugging for the 4k has been an issue ever since the hatch mechanics were changed to their to their modern state.
- The killer has to basically leave you slugged for 2 or 3 minutes most of the time for even a chance this combo comes off. It's nowhere near as broken as you make it out to be… you're telling me you can't find a survivor who can't run on a 3 gen within 2 minutes?
A Survivor that has recovered to 95% or more in the dying state can press the rush button to move 50% faster, bleed out 50% faster, and make 50% more noise. → can be used to dodge the killer to drag time.
You're 50% louder making it much easier to find you, and even with 50% extra movement, you're only 1.05m/s. You're even bleeding out faster, so your ability to delay time is not really that good is it? Again… what's broken here?
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3817310#Comment_3817310
How exactly are any of the suggestions I've listed thus far capable of being abused to bully the killer?
Every single option here still leaves the survivor unable to do anything capable of "bullying" the killer. They can't sabo, they can't pallet stun, they can't blind, they can't body block… they even have incentives to crawl out from under a pallet to try and complete key objectives. Every more productive option I've listed like totems and gens are conspicuous actions, which disables Decisive Strike so can't bully that way either, and between the slow crawling and big penalties to even start progressing objectives, let alone the attached slowdown, you're always better to recover and/or get picked up…
i don't care about such thing as "bullying" killer at all, i'm talking about overall making another basekit change that exclusively suits one side without looking at what the source of problem is.
Suicide on Hook is already rampant… Why would you prefer/provide another option for more survivors to quit the game, rather than introduce mechanisms to allow the game to keep going?
it is, but for completely different reasons.
Why not address both issues rather than discount one problem by masking it with another? Make hooking more appealing AND allow slugged players to still have agency but heavily hindered seems like a better state of health overall, does it not?
if we want to address both issues, we should first look at the very source of problem. Make hooking more appealing, wait to see how intense slugging becomes after and then, if problem with slugging still isn't fixed, advance to addressing it.
Currently you've just stated it's unhealthy, and said hooks need to be punished less. As described above, there is nothing listed here that is at all preferable for a survivor being slugged, they are significantly less efficient in every single way… and slugging players is still a perfectly valid method of slowing down the survivor team significantly with this suggestion.
gen repair, even at lower speed, is a big no, as well as gate opening while being slugged, totem cleansing too.
If you want to say slugged players shouldn't have agency and it's a problem for the game that survivors have additional actions they can take while slugged but at a heavily hindered rate, you'll need to explain what exactly it is that makes it unhealthy.
the very mindset of average survivor player is what would make it unhealthy, i've already seen quite a lot people getting mad at others for pointing out problems with slugging and it's relations with hooking. One dude posted it on twitter and mass of people kept commenting stuff like
"shouldn't bigger challenge be more fun"
"skill issue"
"we deserve to have something against toxic killers" etc.
People have been extremely spoiled and they don't want any solution that will benefit health of the game for both sides, they just want that side they play gets benefits.
if we want to address both issues, we should first look at the very source of problem. Make hooking more appealing, wait to see how intense slugging becomes after and then, if problem with slugging still isn't fixed, advance to addressing it.
I'm not trying to solve fact slugging is rampant now. It's always been something that is a problem where the killer tries to slug the whole team. Knockout gets talked about often as an unhealthy perk for this very reason, and people have LONG been talking about slugging for the 4k for ages as a problem. This is nothing new, it's been a talking point for well over 5 years… so whether or not they fix the state of hooking as it is now, is irrelevant to the point I'm making… a slugged player has no agency.
gen repair, even at lower speed, is a big no, as well as gate opening while being slugged, totem cleansing too.
Ok, but again, you're just stating, without providing a point… if a survivor is slugged, they have to crawl to the generator.
For reference crawl speed is 0.7m/s, which is 1/6th of their normal speed. On average after losing the killer in chase, I'd say it takes me at least 10 seconds on average to make it back to a gen? That's a whole minute just to get there while slugged (30s more if I recover first). Then we have another 10 seconds to pick themselves up, then say the gen is 50%, that's another ~60s…. Bear in mind, the survivor is only alive for another 1 minute and 30s at this point…
So tell me, what's so unhealthy? The killer would have literally had to ignore the slugged survivor for well over 2 minutes. To fully repair a gen from nothing, the survivor is almost dead by the time they get that done.
the very mindset of average survivor player is what would make it unhealthy, i've already seen quite a lot people getting mad at others for pointing out problems with slugging and it's relations with hooking. One dude posted it on twitter and mass of people kept commenting stuff like
"shouldn't bigger challenge be more fun"
"skill issue"
"we deserve to have something against toxic killers" etc.
People have been extremely spoiled and they don't want any solution that will benefit health of the game for both sides, they just want that side they play gets benefits.
The mindset makes it unhealthy? A survivor being annoyed at the killer for slugging instead of unhooking makes it unhealthy? The two aren't related my man…
I play both killer and survivor, and I can't think of a single situation where a slugged survivor like this is gonna have me "OMG! That slugged survivor did <whatever>, I couldn't have possible done anything about that!". You're accusing me of making suggestions purely for the benefit of Survivor side… I'm gonna give you the benefit the doubt and assume you're new, but I've been quite vocal about in support of a lot of buffs to killer side just as often…
This I feel is a genuine issue for survivor, and I've made what to me is a sensible and reasonable suggestion, that isn't overpowered, isn't unfair. Being slugged means you can't take part at all in the game again, until someone on either side picks you up… that is a problem, and is why slugging for the 4k has been an issue ever since the hatch mechanics were changed to their to their modern state.
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@Aceislife said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3817253#Comment_3817253
Just one thing I wanted to say, everyone that hates TLOU 2 feels the same way about the cure it seems. The point of Part 1s ending and what Joel did, was that there was a possibility for the entire humanity to restored with the cure. Saying "it wouldn't have worked" etc. is speculation. No matter how slight the chance, Joel stopped it. But there was a chance that it could have happened. Thanks to Joel, the world will never know. And also seems like everyone that dislike the game also try to make Abby seem worse than she is.
Joel is way worse than all the others combined, let alone Abby. But it was easy to understand why he did it.
That exactly what I mean by it depends how you view Joel's actions in part one.
You have taken the opinion that Joel should have let Ellie die, because of the potential cure for humanity. I would agree with that statement… if Ellie was given the choice and chose to sacrifice herself, however she did not… the Fireflys took her away unconscious to kill her, held a gun to Joel and said "Leave".
To me and a lot of people, especially parents, this is unacceptable situation. Take a look at someone like Captain America, if given the choice to let a innocent person die to prevent the threat of nuclear war from killing hundreds of thousands of people, he would take the stance that is an unacceptable trade, we do not compromise on a persons life, and would fight and die to save that innocent. This is the same situation, and it is what brings out the best of humanity. Pragmatically, you are correct, killing Ellie for the chance of a cure is the sensible choice… but it is decidedly inhuman.
So when you say Joel is worse, I vehemently disagree… he is no worse than the fireflys or the rest of humanity. Killing an innocent girl in her sleep for just the chance at saving yourselves because you deem everyone else's lives more important than hers, is evil. This is the crux of why TLOUp2 is controversial. Joel was given an impossible choice that didn't have a right answer in part 1, he was a loving man who made the choice to save the life of the girl that brought light and meaning back into his life again… and in the same position, I would have done the same thing.
Part 1 lets you and me both have our perspectives. Part 2 tells us that Joel is the evil one and deserved to die for saving Ellie… and everything it did after that just cemented that perspective and ruined the meaning and introspection of the original.
That is why people like me hate it. It basically tells us that caring about the people you love and not striving to be better than the cold logic from a machine mind and a machine heart is the right answer, and you're not gonna be able to tell anyone who hates TLOUp2 to accept that message.
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@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3816508#Comment_3816508
When you only have it available at 95% you can almost never use it. I think bleeding out faster and being louder are fair trades for crawling a bit faster. Maybe it should not be available at 0% but like 30% or so?
That's a fair point, if it were me I'd go for a nice neat 50% myself. Countering slugging should still be primarily a team thing, but if your team won't or can't get to you, taking 15s to "recover" first and then getting the ability to do more complex actions seems reasonable.
Also dat Tenacity value 🤪
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@[Deleted User] said:
How about a simple give up option after 2 minutes of slugged?
This solves the issue about being slugged for way too long and it cant be abused to bully the killer.
How exactly are any of the suggestions I've listed thus far capable of being abused to bully the killer?
Every single option here still leaves the survivor unable to do anything capable of "bullying" the killer. They can't sabo, they can't pallet stun, they can't blind, they can't body block… they even have incentives to crawl out from under a pallet to try and complete key objectives. Every more productive option I've listed like totems and gens are conspicuous actions, which disables Decisive Strike so can't bully that way either, and between the slow crawling and big penalties to even start progressing objectives, let alone the attached slowdown, you're always better to recover and/or get picked up…
The only conceivable argument I can think of is if we're worried about slugged survivors forcing a killer to pick them up by doing gens/totems, you could easily make the argument to lock these features behind being at 95% recovery first, as if the survivor has to recover enough to be able to function to a basic degree first.
Suicide on Hook is already rampant… Why would you prefer/provide another option for more survivors to quit the game, rather than introduce mechanisms to allow the game to keep going?
@NarkoTri1er said:
please, just please no more basekit additions to the survivor kit because it's absolutely the wrong way to deal with slugging as a whole, and generaly basekit additions to the kit in a way to deal with strategies better are awful direction to go along.
To understand why there is a problem with slugging being so rampant, we need to understand the reason behind it being so rampant. I made a thread on that topic:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/429621/lets-talk-about-hooking-vs-slugging
Let's once think about pushing the game into the right direction, not further dragging it into amore and more unhealthy state.
Why not address both issues rather than discount one problem by masking it with another? Make hooking more appealing AND allow slugged players to still have agency but heavily hindered seems like a better state of health overall, does it not?
Currently you've just stated it's unhealthy, and said hooks need to be punished less. As described above, there is nothing listed here that is at all preferable for a survivor being slugged, they are significantly less efficient in every single way… and slugging players is still a perfectly valid method of slowing down the survivor team significantly with this suggestion.
If you want to say slugged players shouldn't have agency and it's a problem for the game that survivors have additional actions they can take while slugged but at a heavily hindered rate, you'll need to explain what exactly it is that makes it unhealthy.
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@caipt said:
I thought this would be another basekit unbreakable post, but I'm pleasantly surprised to see good suggestions! I like how none of the options are gamebreaking or really turn the tide of a match while still giving a downed survivor something vaguely useful to do.
Cheers my guy! I'm happy to... disappoint? On the Unbreakable side of things... 😅
I'd really like to see the art team do some new cool animations of survivors whimpering and struggling to repair a gen after dragging themselves to it... Even just cinematically, it'd be awesome 😁
The one I haven't suggested is gate... I'm still mulling over that one if it would be workable or not...
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@Aceislife said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3816895#Comment_3816895
I've heard people say Joel mentioning his name doesn't fit his character, but Abby saved Tommy and Joel from the horde, and Tommy was the one that told his name first, Joel then went along with it. I think the problem was that a lot of people saw Joel as some kind of a good man but in reality he was the complete opposite. And when it comes to Ellie, the way I see it ever since Joel's death happened she thought she was mad at Abby and years later still thought she needed to kill her to let go. But when she could have had her she realized she was actually mad at herself for not trying with Joel sooner. And at the end at the farm she thinks about their last talk and how she forgives him. She can finally move on, I'm assuming she goes back to Dina to not make the same mistake as she did with Joel.
I've played through both games many times, and Part 2 hits harder every time, I think both are some of the best I've played.
It's complex, but I agree with your assessment that Joel is not a good man. The whole point of TLOUp1 is that Joel has become a very cold and detached person who has basically lost his humanity as a result of his daughter dying. He is introduced to us as someone willing to break the legs of/kill the person that owes him something.
The whole point of the story is that upon meeting Ellie and the resulting story that follows, she brings him back to his humanity, and reignites the loving caring part of the man he was. Him saving Ellie at the end of TLOUp1 was a mirror of the detached survivalist he was when he started the game.
Ellie is unconscious and going to be killed without her consent for a potential cure that may not even work, and all to save the villainous, murderous and evil people left of the world who prey on the weak. Instead of being willing to leave her to die to stay alive himself when given the option, he made good on the promise he would never abandon her again and risked his life to save hers, no matter the cost.
The climax of the game has Ellie ask him what happened, and he lies to her to spare her the weight and implications of the truth. We see from Ellies reaction that she doesn't really buy what he tells her, but accepts the lie knowing he cares about her and trusts him.
It leaves the morality up to the player to decide. Is a potential cure for what is left of the world worth Ellie dying? Or is Joel's responsibility to Ellie, and the terms given to Joel by the Fireflies unacceptable... I think this is the devide where you either love or hate TLOUp2. I'm in the latter camp.
.
Fast forward to TLOUp2 and now Ellie is wracked with survivors guilt and mad at Joel for having cost her the chance to save the world to die for a purpose. His actions in Ellie's eyes weren't Joel saving her from being murdered for potentially no reason, and instead a selfish act for his own gratification... and this would be a fine plot point, Ellie doesnt really hate Joel, but struggling with ten burden of the truth... but Joel for some reason is shown to just accept that he was in the wrong and acts meek and spineless the whole time. If during the scene where they talked in the flashback he said something like "... if I could do the whole situation over again... I wouldn't change anything". Without something like that, it feels very much like the game disrespects him and his choive in the first game constantly.
Throughout the whole opening of the game, Joel just isn't Joel. The guy he should be is the cantacerous guy who is constantly getting in peoples face and banging on about being vigilant, sticking to rules and protocol and not trusting outsiders. He's the person here who has survived out in the cut throat world with no attachments, he knows the dangers out there better than anyone here.
Yet the whole series of events leading up to his death is just bad decision after bad decision on his part. When he's caught by Abby's crew he should have been on high alert WELL before the ######### hits the fan, and he should have absolutely not made the the mistake of giving out his name... him dying is a fine plot point... but Joel has had to become really stupid and not be Joel to get here, and complacency because he's lived in peace for 5 years is not an excuse. As I say, he's the guy that should be the crackpot harping on at everyone else and not being taken seriously by Tommy's naive community who doesn't know better.
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This is already long so I won't get started on Abby, but the hypocrisy of her character is insane. Her father gets murdered, she goes and hunts him down, and then is surprised Ellie hunts her down... she even spares her life knowing that it doesn't matter she's still gonna come after anyway. At no point does Abby acknowledge she may have been wrong to kill Joel, she instead lambasts Ellie for the death she's brought with her revenge mission... despite the fact her father was killed so Joel could save this very person in front of her... which she knows! It's just so hypocritical it's laughable. If Abby ever reflected on and regretted Joel's death, having to face up to Ellie for what she'd done, and present this idea that maybe Joel wasn't in the wrong for his actions in the first game, that'd make it all an easier pill to swallow and a solid pay off... But no, Joel in her mind at the end still deserved what he got. This should have been the payoff for Abby, and it never happened.
Basically the game massively disrespects Joel, both by making him behave like an idiot, and blaming him completely for the events of this game, and never having his killer answer for it.
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Finally there is Ellie who loses everything in her mission for revenge. She gets everyone but Dina killed, and I'm sorry to tell you... no she doesn't get to be with Dina, Dina expressly said "if you go, I wont be here when you come back". So Dina is gone as well.
She sacrificed everything and everyone in her life for her chance to kill Abby, and she didn't even take that, which again is made sour by Abby not having her revelation/payoff regarding Joel herself. Ellie just loses everything for no reason... even her fingers so she can't even play Joel's guitar.
The thing is we knew way back at the start it was a bad idea to go on this revenge mission. It's why Abby is irredeemable, cause she was willing to risk her crews lives for a revenge mission that doesn't really make sense. If she didn't know WHY Joel killed her father, that would make more sense... but she does know exactly why... so her revenge doesn't paint her as a person worth following. She's a villain, no matter how much humanity and tragedy you try and staple on her Naughty Dog.... and we get to Ellie doing exactly the same thing as the villain... and the whole time we're sat like "what's the point? You're just gonna either die or lose everything in the process", which is exactly what happens.
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The story could have been something like Tommy goes for revenge, and Ellie goes to bring him back home alive, but the rest of the story plays out pretty much same, and ends at the farmhouse. That would have been a much better treatment of Ellie's character. If you fix the issues with Joel being a putz as well, then you've got yourself a great script... but with what was given... it's just mean spirited and destroys TLOUp1s legacy.
Sorry it's long... nerd rage is hard to contain xD
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@Aceislife said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3816380#Comment_3816380
I found Part 2 even better than the first, despite it being far more depressing.
Glad you enjoyed it, I couldnt stand it, but I won't try and convince you to dislike something you enjoy. So do please ignore the spoiler if you don't want to open up that debate 😅
What I will say is the game is extremely polarising though... so by that definition, it is not a game I would recommend.
Gameplaywise I'd agree it's better, much more polish, and in a lot of ways it can be commended for being bold enough to tell such a story (and the story is what really sells TLOU).
... However storywise it reframes/undermines a lot of what makes part 1 so good and memorable at several points, heavy handedly tries to tell you/manipulate you in to what to think, and has characters selectively ignore key character traits, bend and snap to the whims of where the story wants to go, and randomly lose 40 IQ points in order for the contrived plot to happen...
A lot of those flaws would be managable/passable for a lot of players, especially with the gameplay improvements... if they didn't come at the expense of some very serious world shattering plot points, that should have provoked a need to ensure airtight writing given the heavy losses they inflict upon the player. Having such major events that are impossible to recover from so lazily implemented, it makes them feel cheap and unearned. Depending on how much you were invested in the original story and how much you notice, it can easily put an immovable bitter taste in your mouth that only gets worse the more the game does it...
Ultimately TLOUp2 invites us to see the characters get into a train wreck. It rips down a lot of what had many players invested from the first game, and all of it just to tell us "an eye for an eye leaves everyone blind"... which is all extremely obvious from the get go, and we get to watch everyone we care about go down that stupid obvious road and lose everything for no good reason.
Like Alien 3 it is just a depressing story that ends up exactly where you would expect it, taking away the meaning and introspection we drew from the originals for literally no gain... and you're left asking "what the hell was the point of playing any of this?"
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@upsideinsanity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3816790#Comment_3816790
Personally I dont play killer because its too easy. It plays itself and I get bored after just a few matches. Survivor offers an actual challenge and this comment just confirms my belief that those who play killer only do because they can't handle survivor.
Anyone who says killer is easy clearly hasn't played killer for very long. When you go up against good survivors on a m1 killer you get humbled pretty fast.
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@Laurie268 said:
Remember BHVR, the forums do not represent the majority of the playerbase. Almost everyone I know is happy with these changes and thinks you should have even went further with them. She has been so obnoxious to play against ever since her release that I feel zero sympathy for SM mains. Let them suffer the same way survivors have for the last 1.5 years
Yes, of course, let's listen to the childish mob who can't be bothered to read or discuss anything /articulate an actual point. That's how we look out for the best interests of the game. 😉👍
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/429479/undone-perk-buff-idea
i think it would be hilarious if it had bigger charge cap like 50.
For Christ's sake man, we just got a whole bunch of perks nerfed... I don't wanna even consider the whine that comes off that xD
I think it should be greats personally, because it would then naturally counter higher skilled players more than lower skilled players, Hyperfocus, BNPs, and other gen rush perks/playstyles, as well as have synergies with Overcharge and Oppression.
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That's... quirky... kinda cool, I like it xD
I don't think it need tokens though... I'd probably just make it a flat effect of 2/3/4 seconds.
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@Langweilig said:
I did not expect this type of suggestions and viewpoint. I like all your suggestions and they are very creative.
- Why not?
- Would be very nice
- 4.Not quite useful but okey
5. /6. Maybe useful in some situations. I like it
7 Definitely, we need that, but I wouldn’t make it require 95%. I suggested something similar too. It would also finally help with slugging for the 4K.
Thanks! 'preciate it! 😁
7. Definitely, we need that, but I wouldn’t make it require 95%. I suggested something similar too. It would also finally help with slugging for the 4K.
Well, to remove the 95% requirement, there would need to be a much bleedout penalty; you don't really want a situation where taking the 50% crawl speed is pretty much always the best choice, it would need to come with a greater risk vs. reward.... but sure that could work fine too 😁
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@pa4n said:
Would be cool i guess :) I still have to play The last of us 2. The first game was so good :)
Do yourself a favour and don't do it… pretend the sequel doesn't exist. You'll be much happier. If you want a reason, a short version of explaining the problem is "mean spirited", same kind of issues as Alien 3.
… and that's the unfortunate part of the request of the OP… canonically Ellie appearing in DBD would have to be the adult version of Ellie… which means it has to acknowledge TLOUp2's existence.
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@HolyDarky said:
Peanits already confirmed that they will reduce the chase time from 30 to 15 sec in the next patch.
Starting with 1 token is fine. Knowing that the killer has Lethal Pursuer is already huge because you confirm one perk and this one will be already gone for the rest of the match. Then getting found by any other aura perk and having a chase where you can gain two tokens for the next time, is more than fair. If the killer has LP, they will chase and hook a different survivor. If the killer then has BBQ or NWTH and you (the Distortion user not you in particular) get found, that is fine because at this moment you spread the hooks between your group. If the killer has no LP, you are safe against the other potential aura perk and you are prepared for it the next time (the next time = when two other survivors are already hooked). Lastly, the average killer only has one aura perk or a maximum of two but more killers rather run full slowdown.
After sleeping on it, the more I've thought about it, the more I like the 15s change over 2 starting stacks.
Distortion counters Lethal, and after you get hooked it makes it harder to tunnel without significantly more commitment from the killer, as @Devil_hit11 says…
It also has a similar value for SoloQ as it does SWF, as with SWF you could have one person take old Distortion and call out all the aura perks in play. While that is still true to a degree, the SWF doesn't get all of the aura perk knowledge unless the Distortion player specifically takes chase to get stacks….
Actually I'm very happy where Distortion is now… fair play BHVR…
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@HolyDarky said:
Peanits already confirmed that they will reduce the chase time from 30 to 15 sec in the next patch.
Starting with 1 token is fine. Knowing that the killer has Lethal Pursuer is already huge because you confirm one perk and this one will be already gone for the rest of the match. Then getting found by any other aura perk and having a chase where you can gain two tokens for the next time, is more than fair. If the killer has LP, they will chase and hook a different survivor. If the killer then has BBQ or NWTH and you (the Distortion user not you in particular) get found, that is fine because at this moment you spread the hooks between your group. If the killer has no LP, you are safe against the other potential aura perk and you are prepared for it the next time (the next time = when two other survivors are already hooked). Lastly, the average killer only has one aura perk or a maximum of two but more killers rather run full slowdown.
Missed that, thanks for the update!
I suppose you can guess at a second perk in play vs. Lethal Pursuer. 15s is pretty generous, so kinda make sense amd is a bit more reasonable.... though it still does tend to mean you're learning about the auras in play after you've already lost a hook stage... but 15s seems like you can disappear in the mid game.
Not convinced it'll be enough, but it is at least more reasonable
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@Devil_hit11 said:
i think it start with 3 tokens and have much longer time to gain tokens… like 80 seconds for being outside and inside chase but it is whatever. the perk is significant worse at preventing tunneling.
i am not really interested in this perk. i am more interested in weave attunement for whether it will remain a decent perk to get aura reading in chase or dead.
Thats fine too, either way, the point is it shouldn't let you hide all match for free, but it should give you the ability to pick up killer aura perks early so you can make informed decisions.
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@TragicSolitude said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3815727#Comment_3815727
My theory is that OP detaches themself from movies but doesn't have the same level of detachment from video games, or at least not from their chosen avatar in DbD, so it feels more personal.
Given how so many players take everything that happens in DbD personally… it's not surprising, but neither is it something that should be acted upon. Then again, maybe if I felt like my avatar was a recreation of my soul rather than seeing it as a fiction created of pixels and polygons, I'd feel spiritually violated when a killer sticks their weapon into my guts. I dunno.
So why do we like horror? Well human beings are intelligent and inquisitive, it's what allows us to discover, learn and grow. Being horrified is an interesting experience that is unique to you... you learn about yourself and your own fears through horror stories and media (duch as campfire stories), an experience that no one else can experience for you...
I really enjoyed Martyrs (the original, I still haven't bothered to sit through the remake), the way it holds a mirror up to the audience and asks "Why do we watch horror?"
I used to find Predator really disturbing and repulsive, and I even had to take regular breaks when I watched it the first time 21 years ago
John Carpenter's The Thing is the movie that scared me the most when I saw it when I was young. It's still one of my favorite movies of all time. God I miss special effects like those, CGI is the death of viscerally effective visuals.
My theory is that OP detaches themself from movies but doesn't have the same level of detachment from video games, or at least not from their chosen avatar in DbD, so it feels more personal.
I suppose the main appeal of games is the ability to immerse yourself in a fantasy world you couldn't realistically explore in real life or via movies with your own agency... which is what makes games such a compelling media, and I guess one can't criticise someone for being more attached to that media...
Though it does also kinda bolster the argument that the game is successfully provided the horror experience it advertises... guess it's how's you look at it.
I really enjoyed Martyrs (the original, I still haven't bothered to sit through the remake), the way it holds a mirror up to the audience and asks "Why do we watch horror?"
Should I be ashamed of not having seen Martyrs? It appears I have done acquired late night movie-ing to do 😁
John Carpenter's The Thing is the movie that scared me the most when I saw it when I was young. It's still one of my favorite movies of all time. God I miss special effects like those, CGI is the death of viscerally effective visuals.
Yeeeaas, the Thing is awesome. It's not in my DVD collection and has been on my list for my next bulk buy of horror films 😁
Well done classic effects are timeless, and still hold up decades later because that was actually how they looked in real life... the Evil Dead Remake used practical effects whenever possible, and evening it did go Evil Dead silly at the end (I am ashamed for enjoying that fan service as a much as I did) that film looking incredible start to finish.
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The psychology of this argument seems a little strange to me.... Isn't the whole point of horror to cause fear and repulsion?
Horror isn't a pleasant experience by its very definition, its intent is to disturb and repulse you into fearing for your life... a natural mechanism so you can stay alive. Animals are repulsed by sight and smell of the blood and guts of their own species because that represents danger and potential death... in real life these things tend to trigger either a fight or flight response, or a disgust/repulse response to aid your survival... I would argue you being disgusted by them is kinda the entire point of the horror experience...
So why do we like horror? Well human beings are intelligent and inquisitive, it's what allows us to discover, learn and grow. Being horrified is an interesting experience that is unique to you... you learn about yourself and your own fears through horror stories and media (duch as campfire stories), an experience that no one else can experience for you...
I used to find Predator really disturbing and repulsive, and I even had to take regular breaks when I watched it the first time 21 years ago... now that's almost laughable to me given where I am now with horror, and my knowledge of my personal fears is now far more refined and well understood...
My point is... why are you trying to limit the horror experience for yourself? Surely the whole point of horror is to explore and build upon your own limitations of fear and repulsion?
If you don't want to do that, that's fine... but it seems strange to play a game all about pain, suffering and murder and then complain you are repulsed by people being murdered... that's like going to Nando's Chicken and complaining that you are replused they are serving dead chickens... 🤨
Regarding the go next argument... it's at most 10 seconds, and often shorter than being carried to hook and being sacrificed... what exactly is the point?
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Given basekit unbreakable in any scenario is really strong, and the killer is meant to be the one in a winning position if they've killed all but 2 survivors before the gates are powered, I'd prefer a more reserved change that still gives the slugged survivor something to do, but at a significant disadvantage.
E.g.
- Recovering to 95% or higher in the dying state allows you to enter the Desperation state by hitting the rush button.
- Once is Desperation you cannot exit Desperation.
- While in Desperation you bleed out 50% faster, crawl 50% faster and make 50% louder grunts of pain.
- While in the dying state you can swap/pickup items that are in chests or on the ground.
- While in the dying state you can open and search chests as normal. You also gain the basekit ability to rummage a single time.
- While in the dying state you use a key on the hatch.
- Broken Key is changed to Crooked Key, which can open hatch, but takes 10 seconds.
This means the slugged survivor can still try and do things to survive, or at least try and force the killer to pick them up to prevent them crawling away.
With the number of decent aura perks available to killers, finding a crawling survivor ain't much of an issue, and actually encourages the use of aura perks for the end game.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3815392#Comment_3815392
Endgame camping is the problem.
I have always been extremely against it. I refuse to do it as killer, and I hate seeing it as survivor.
It is something that I don't think should have ever been normalized.
I'm interestd in that point and if something could be done about that would be good. The problem is, isn't the only way for this not to happen to run NOED though?
Like if you leave hook, unless you're an instantdown killer or a killer with insane speed, it is literally impossible to catch a survivor before they make it to gate in 90% of cases... so how do I even attempt to leave hook for chases? Not only that, you can't move away and then catch the unhooked survivor either cause of Basekit BT and body blocking.
This means your only shot is to try and double wound the survivor who goes for the first unhook attempt while the 2 other survivors are behind you, and even that usually results in losing the kill.
The only way I could even think of to make it even remotely viable to go for chases as killer is: -
- Rapidly regress the gate progress when a survivor let's go of the handle to force the gate to open. Something like 15% (3 seconds/charges worth) immediately and 5% per second (1 second/charge) after.
- EG takes 150 seconds flat. No slowdown on a hook or down. Survivors either decide to leave, or go for the save, but time is not on their side.
That might at least make committing to a chase somewhat viable, if I can hook far from gates, there is the reasonable chance I can interrupt escape attempts before they actually make it to gate after an unhook.... these changes mean survivors can't take all the time they want to reset and come for unhooks. It wouldn't be possible to 99 gates and all come at once, someone has to stay behind to tend the gate or put the save on a timer, and the killer can actually afgord to try and exert some pressure... Blood Warden becomes a genuine threat by its mete existence and it can actually permit/benefit me to commit to a chase.
Heck with those changes, we could even consider enabling some more survivor perks in the end game... but we can't really criticise camping hooks in end game when literally everything else a killer could do results in a guaranteed even worse loss....
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It's been a day my dude...
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People really claim the Distortion rat playstyle is uncommon?
Maybe if you're good and in high MMR, but I'm gonna tell you a secret... most of the DBD playerbase are not good... in low and mid mmr Distortion rats are a lot more common.
Contrary to popular opinion, DBD MMR does actually work reasonably well. If you have any newbie friends or players better than you to play with, just watch how much easier/harder looping becomes. Most players are low and mid MMR, how do we know? Pig and Sadako vs. Blight and Nurse killrates.
Around mid and low levels, trust me, you can almost always tell a rat player with Distortion. I've legitimately seen maybe ⅛ of Distortion users use it properly (and that is being rather generous). The rest:
- Only do the safest gens on the edge of the map, always resulting in 3 genning us.
- They are insanely inefficient where they always hide the minute there is a chance the killer comes anywhere near them (even if the killer is currently occupied in chase, off they walk).
- They almost never go go for the unhook, leaving the injured Yui with 1 hook or the death hook David to do it, even though they're on 0 hooks.
- Even if they do unhook they certainly ain't gonna stick around to heal you or make themselves obvious to try and distract the killer off the tunnel.
As Survivor I get really annoyed at Distortion users, you watch them do the above, and sure enough, you see Distortion every single time. Would they change everything with this Distortion change? Probably not, but Distortion working how it used to makes games so much harder. At least with new Distortion the killer can actually find them and give some room for the rest of us to breathe. As killer more often I win, cause as described above, they make the game easier for me in various ways. The reason I always hated Distortion was I like to spread hooks and pressure, and avoid tunnelling, win or lose.
I have had plenty of games where I've simply not been able to find rat survivors and ending up tunneling out of necessity; even saying out loud "someone better knock off this hiding crap and show me their ass right now or Claudette is going to die". It always results in the person I would actually give hatch to cause they played well and stuck it out like a trooper, is the only one I can find.... it sucks, and I'm glad it's gone 😒
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... I applaud your enthusiasm, though I have to ask... 100 prestiges? 😶😶😶😶
Guesstimating a low ball of 16 challenges a page, 4 pages a tome and 21 tomes, we're talking about 1344 challenges, which is a minimum of that many games of DBD to complete. I reckon an average game is maybe 10 minutes... so a complete run of the tomes takes about 225 hours... that's assuming you can complete each on in one run on your first attempt... but considering some require multiple attempts to complete, and some are just bat crap insane hard, the number is probably closer to 300-350 hours... we then also get the events in between that slow you down as well, that's usually an additional couple of tome pages each time.
I've been steadily working my way through the tomes over the course 19 months, and I've gotten about 14/21 done... There are some truly brutal challenges in tomes that are very tricky, and it's taken hundreds of hours to get this far.
On average it takes me between 2 days to a week to complete a tome page. At the moment I'm at tome 8, and it seems 7 8, 9, 10 is BHVR went a bit more hardcore... things like sacrifice 15 survivors, hook 10 survivors in basement, get 20 safe unhooks... it can take 1 or 2 hours plus just to get 1 of these challenges complete...
100 prestiges of anything sounds nuts... but 100 prestiges of tomes... that's gnarly mate 😶😶😶😶😶