UndeddJester
UndeddJester
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Evan
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@Caiman said:
It would be better if it applied Oblivious to all injured survivors so that it wasn't immediately obvious who had been revealed to the killer. Was it you, or was it the other injured survivor? You won't know until the killer comes to get one of you.
This and Hysteria? Perma oblivious? Sounds interesting for Plague and puts a real hurt on survivors not giving her her power... 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔
Strangly not so synergistic for Legion, but not bad for them either.
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Was tossing up between Plague, Spirit, Wraith and Sadako initially weighing up consistent value, and/or the mobility to capitalise.… However Plague lacks map traversal, and the others already have stealth built in...
However after thinking about it, I would say Dredge might have good use for it... since he doesn't get stealth reliably until Nightfall, benefits keeping people injured, and does have the mobility to capitalise on it, while also not having a global tell that he is teleporting...
He might actually have one of the few powers to successfully psyche out and get slowdown power on a survivor with it.
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@Mandy said:
No they are not actionable reports - we do not ban for camping, tunneling or slugging.
They are there, because regardless of whether they are part of the report system or not, players will report them. It enables us to categorise the reports better.
That was my impression when I saw it... fast track those reports to the recycle bin.
Shrewd 🤣🤣🤣🤣
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Even though it's from Sea of Thieves, I think this clip from PhuzzyBond sums it up perfectly:
"I need a server with toxic, garbage, dogwater players, so I can sink them all without feeling bad... I can't play like this" 🤣
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Acknowledging the fact that I'm very intolerant of quitting, and against it in all of it's forms...
The penalty for quitting though is short on your first offence... killers quitting is not like survivors quitting, in the fact you're mostly punishing yourself. It still sucks the fat one cause killers who pitch a fit just cause they're losing does make the game uninteresting for non-toxic survivors... however it's less damaging on the whole for a killer to quit and it's also far more rare.
You always have the chance to snag a kill, so quitting is not something I see being common for killer at all, and should never be that common or encouraged....
So if this is the type of game that forces you to quit, what's wrong with just DCing and taking a 1 minute penalty for the most extreme cases? Unless you're doing in more often than that, it should never be an issue...
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@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3831326#Comment_3831326
I loved iri videotape and I was so sad as they removed it. I wished they just nerfed it accordingly and kept it.
Is there a reason not to grab a tape? Does the tape do anything other than turn off the TV and help remove condemn? Or is this going back to the 100s projection and 70s tape recovery on TVs?
Tapes would only be for turning off TVs and removing condemned and they would give 1 stack of condemned every 25s like in her first version.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/428547/my-sadako-onryo-wishlist-long-post
That is basically how I would change her. I would keep the things from the current version, that I don’t mention.
I would add to the changes I make in that discussion, that every 60s every survivor gets 1 stack condemned, so the focus is not on spamming the teleport button all the time, but I don’t know wether it would be too much. In that discussion I added to her first version, that hooking a survivor gives all other survivors one stack of condemned, so you have to do something for it and to reward to actually chase someone instead of spamming. This would also pair well with the condemned lock in.
In there I go over chase buffs (making her flicker better, TVs no longer turn off after a teleport, the lullaby…..), addon changes/ideas, that could also be done to the current version and a revert part to her first version with buffs to condemned (range increase, hooking survivors spreads condemned).
Sorry for copying this discussion in again, but if you are interested, that are the changes I would like to see.
Its an interesting concept. I'm more used to the idea of survivors wanting to turn TVs turn off of course, but it makes sense if taking a tape wants to be discouraged.
The demanifest changes look good, no objections to any of that.
The condemn on teleport having its own individual cooldown per TV is a cool idea in conjunction with the TVs never turning off when Sadako uses them. That makes it more clear of the trade offs.
You would need to redo iri add-on though, if survivors have accepted the penalty for taking a tape being able to undo it with the iri makes that add-on pretty busted unfair. Either have TVs stay on unless you take a tape, or the iri (with nerfs) to turn projected TVs back on. I don't think it works if you can do both, unless the iri brings back turning off TVs to mess with Survibors grabbing/delivering tapes.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3831285#Comment_3831285
I'm happy to hear your revisions for 2.0, but just saying 2.0 is better, which can only even be argued as possibly true in the very thin band where survivors are good enough to not get steam rolled, but not good enough that Sadako gets completely minced... is not helpful.
the reason sadako got steamrolled is because her chase is bad vs good players. the tapes effectiveness or ineffecitve scales on the survivor's ability to loop and how easy or how hard it is to loop depends on chase power being effective.
inevitably, while i do think her condemn is not in a good state, i don't think buffing condemn is correct play in her current state. i think correct play is to buff her chase so that her chase is more viable vs better players. She's a bad m1 killer alongside a poor condemn mechanic. as much as i want her condemn to be better, her chase should be adjusted first. Flicking invisibility doesn't work in its current form because as soon as you see first flicker, you can guess the direction that killer commits on long loops. her invisibility needs to be way longer, a single instance of invisibility and her passive invisibility should be more aggressive flickering.
as for her condemn, i think a more simple change is to allow sadako to build condemn by hitting a survivor. a single condemn stack. The other condemn buff that i think i would do is change her ring drawing to no longer grant 1 condemn stack but to instead lock condemn of All survivors in the trial when sadako successfully hooks someone.
Summary:
- When Onryo hits a survivor, the survivor condemn meter is increased by 1
- Reworked Ring drawing to lock all survivors in the trials condemn up to 3 when performing a hooking action.
- Reworked her manifesting to turn her invisible for 1.5 seconds
- Reworked her passive demanifest state to have faster invisibility flickers.
I am not saying your changes would be bad. I am just offering different suggestions that i think would be superior in my opinion.
I am not saying your changes would be bad. I am just offering different suggestions that i think would be superior in my opinion.
All good, sorry to bust balls man, I was just having a hard time resolving your stance on things 😁
I think your reasoning makes sense here, just a quick question, cause its not immediately apparent, are these for 3.0 instead of 2.0? Cause these changes sound like they're for 3.0 given the suggestion for ring drawing, but youve quoted my 2.0 line.
I'll assume its for 3.0, this idea is actually quite interesting, mostly cause her condemn lock in features more in her kit. After all, 2 hits on a survivor is 2 condemn, which will be the common condemn lock in unless they get a tape off mid chase somehow.
If Sadako's game in 3.0 wasn't better with hit and run, this would be possibly overtuned... but considering she wants to hit and run there is more of a trade off here... commit to one survivor for more guaranteed condemn, but reduce the pressure map wide, or drop chase and try to keep a global presense with TV control. It makes sense.
I might be a little worried though how much she profits from hitting someone off hook through BT or OTR, and there's also more potential condemn value from slugging.... though countering Dead Hard is nice.
I'd probably have to see in it action, but a mechanic such as a full stack for hitting healthy survivors and a half stack for injured might be worth looking into.
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I used to question if Art was up there with other killer icons… Now I look back at my former self and think "what a putz" for ever holding that opinion.
Terrifier will be great 🤘😁🤘
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@Toystory3Monkey said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3831252#Comment_3831252
i genuinely dont want to argue with a person who has mindset like yours, because you're clearly way too invested into the issue to see things clearly. I`ll still spend my time addressing your points, because I dont want to leave that misinformation hanging there.
>Saying "balance is at it's best" is completely tone deaf to the huge issues the current game has. Balance has steadily been shifting in the killer's favor for two years now, and that's been the stated goal since the devs are pushing for 60% kill rate. An arbitrary number picked out of a hat, that a lot of killer players didn't really care where it came from because it had meant a ton of bugs and changes to allow killers to win more.
"balance is bad because it doesnt favour bad survivors anymore". Im sorry to burst your bubble, but the "60%" killrate number includes the average games of all averagely bad survivors and killers. Im afraid I think I have to tell you that would mean that survivors are more likely to have bad players on average which would drag down the good players as well.
Balancing for 50% would've made sense when survivor skill issue factor would've been eliminated, be it competitive matchmaking or self sufficient design where each survivor has independent and equal chance to earn escape. None of that will happen, so you, as a solo q victim, will suck it up, just like killers suck it up when facing SWFs that cherry pick strong links.
as for skull merchant, have you ever considered people don't necessarily DC from the games that are 100% going to lose? Especially against a killer that was made socially acceptable to give up against 5 seconds into the match without even attempting to play the match out? Has a thought ever occured to you that maybe lots of these games couldve been won games because ultimately skull merchant is an overrated C tier killer with consistent (just boring) counterplay?
>camping, tunneling, and slugging are out of control
survivors have never had this many tools, including basekit mechanics, to combat that. Imagine showing your complaint to a person in like 2021.
"waaah camping tunnelling slugging is out of control and solo q is unplayable because we have no comms"
"wait you guys have like 6-7 meta perks just to combat tunnelling, just as many to fight slugging, basekit borrowed time, a whole system that makes facecamping physically impossible with rare exceptions and you have a whole UI system that TELLS you what each of your teammates is doing at any given moment?"
if you were sent far enough, you'd cause bootstrap paradox of an entitled survivor meme.
so i`ll repeat myself again, generally the balance isn't the issue. Both sides have the ability to take stupid and op ######### or perks that counter each other's playstyles / builds in rock-paper-scissors manner. The issue is that people refuse to try and are being cheered for that.
Survivors are at fault for their misery. Not this game's supposed poor balance (which is in such a good spot rn that people unironically complain about slugging which hasnt been buffed in years). People who give up, grief and fish for the "perfect" game, not realizing they should've taken a break from this game years ago are the ones that cause your misery.
On a semi unrelated note, Im seeing that people genuinely believe they can bully people out of camping, tunnelling, sweating,etc,etc. Should be focusing on bullying people out of giving up. Address the root of the issue.
Have a good day and maybe take a break from playing this game too.
This correlates to my experience as survivor.
For the last 3 months I've played survivor slightly more often and gotten to iri 1 each season. Comparatively I've gotten usually to Gold 3 or 4 on killer.
I play mostly off meta and chill builds either side, and the times where I get annoyed are 95% of the time causes by survivors.
It's dumb stuff like: -
- Looping the killer near the hook and allowing the killer to camp.
- Going for trades 20s into the hook timer to serve me up for an easy tunnel.
- Not touching gens until I get downed after looping the killer for 80s or more, making all time I buy pointless.
- Waiting around for flashlight saves that they ultimately miss, again making my loop time useless.
- All 3 other survivors trying for saves instead of someone working on gens. What's the point? I'm not dead but we've just kicked the can down the road.
- Letting go of gens the second anyone gets hooked to rush for the save. I have perks and a position way better for this save, but nope I'm the only one who waits a moment to see what the killer does.
- Only doing the gens on the outside of the map and/or all on one side, giving an easy 3 gen.
- Looping the killer near said 3-gen and getting downed in the middle of it.
- DCs because it's a Spirit, or a Wraith or because they got bamboozled on the first loop and downed fast.
- SoH for the same stupid reasons, forcing everyone to drop what they are doing to save.
- Refusing to do anything risky and leave the death hook players to take all the risks making saves or taking chase.
All of this infuriates me, because it gives the killer exactly what they want to create pressure. It's rare I've seen a killer truly hard tunnel or hard slug or hard 3-gen, often it's the result of being given the chance to do it by survivors who just don't use the large thing between their ears.
Yet on killer I have a rule of letting people go who try to play on if people quit... about 10-20% of my games people quit, and I don't even tunnel, camp, slug or anything if I have another option... I just don't get it 😕
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@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3831301#Comment_3831301
Well her chase ability was the same , but a lot less limited, because of no TV auras and constant availability of all TVs. Most Sadako players back then ignored the condemned mechanic and just chased with her. I’m not saying she was perfect, but with just buffing her numbers back then, she would have been. That’s basically what I did in my Sadako wishlist suggestion, which I linked in my last response to you, where I buff every aspect of old Sadako.
I played her hit and run and was constantly switching targets. It was like chasing multiple people at the same time. I chased them away from the gens and switched targets and repeated it. From the survivor perspective it was also a lot more fun too, because you never knew, where she would come from and therefore you never felt save. Another thing that didn’t exist was the visual heart beat, so most people didn’t even know she had a lullaby, because it is very silent and her stealth ability did actually work. Basically you switched targets all the time and kept the whole team busy and sometimes you condemned people and then go for them. The funny thing is, I never played for condemned and it happened at least once in three matches, so people who played for it could archive this very consistently.
I would not say she was addon dependent, because her addons were a lot better back then. The TV cooldown addons were quite useful, all the tape related adddons were good and her chase addons were good. You had much more variety in my opinion since you weren’t forced to playin a certain way/for condemned. It was optional and not like now the only viable way to play her. Most of her addons are now outdated, because they are still designed for 1.0. If you only see the condemned part of her power, then yes, she was addon dependent, but that’s not how most people played her back then. Most just used her mobility to be omnipresent everywhere on the map. She was so scary back then.
Is there a reason not to grab tapes in this version?
Tapes were a risk (every 25s 1stack), so most people didn’t take them, except when they did not want to get chased, so they disabled the TV and she couldn’t teleport to them. Secondly they were taken to remove stacks, when they got too high. Another problem with the mechanic was, that TVs stayed longer inaktiv if you teleported there (100s) than when survivors disabled them (70s). Tapes back then had a completely different concept than now. They were meant not to be touched if not needed to, while now you have to touch them without even thinking a second about it.
But on the plus aide, it would achieve the goal of stopping people grabbing tapes xD
🤩👍
Oh I gotcha, cheers for the breakdown, I'm glad to say that (mostly) falls in line with what I knew about her.
The 100s cooldown was the one that stuck out to me, there was that iri add-ons that turned back on all TVs you'd projected to after hit from manifestation.
This looks like it just made her better in every way with her push people into TVs and cut off gameplay, and it was my understanding this add-on was the one that really would make or break her, but that's obviously only from what I understand talking to others.
Regarding tapes, I was asking about your reworked version with the passive 60s condemn.
Is there a reason not to grab a tape? Does the tape do anything other than turn off the TV and help remove condemn? Or is this going back to the 100s projection and 70s tape recovery on TVs?
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@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3831285#Comment_3831285
My problem with condemned is that her chase is damned to be bad because of it. I want condemned and her chase to be in a good spot like in her first version (sure condemned needed some buffs, but the buffs from the reworks would have buffed 1.0 significantly already), where she was so much more fun to play as and against. The sad thing is, as long as all the focus is on condemned, she will never get any buffs or changes to her chase, which is a very cool aspect of her, but overlooked by so many.
I think they should make, that you always spread condemned around one TV and every 60s every survivor gets one stack of condemned (if not hooked or slugged). Thisway there would be passive condemned build up, she could get buffs in other areas and she wouldn’t be designed to constantly spam tp to get stacks on people (at least less).
I think your idea is fine too, but I like it more to have one full stack, that gets spread.
40 condemn per second for holding tapes.
Tapes would instantly make you fully condemned after one second 😅. What would happen to the other 33stacks?
#########, I meant 1 condemn every 40s, or 0.025 condemn per second 🤣🤣🤣
But on the plus aide, it would achieve the goal of stopping people grabbing tapes xD
Interesting, as I say, I don't know 1.0 Sadako very well, and it's hard to track down a full explanation for her original power. I've pieced together what I can, and I know she was very dependent on her iri to turn hrr tvs back on, what was her chase ability in 1.0?
Is there a reason not to grab tapes in this version?
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3831273#Comment_3831273
they don't need to walk around to other side of the map to deliver tapes. they can take tapes out of TV, work on the gen, mostly uninterrupted and sadako cannot use her ability to generate condemn stacks. The skill aspect of killer was over-coming her poor m1 game. A survivor not getting hit with the tape conversely means killer playing poorly and vice versa.
I don't think Sadako is slow-burner. she's nothing burner. the side-objective is meaningless and after thought to her threat level. I don't agree that she's anything like pig and pig is significant more power and control over her ability. Survivors have long escaped before Sadako gets anything marginally done with her ability.
Myer's tombstone is leagues above sadako. it's not even close. It is not that i don't like this play-style. It is that there is no play-style vs good players. Her power is pure pub-stompy and only works vs players that have no clue how power functions.
This is why I suggest a 3.0 condemn change of say:
- 0.5 condemn within 16m of a powered TV.
- +0.5 condemn within 16m of the TV Sadako teleports to (maybe 0.75?)
- ~40 condemn per second for holding tapes.
Please explain why this doesn't address those issues? Condemn is always building, and the trade off is you control Sadako's ability to interrupt you on a gen. It makes sense for survivors to partner up to minimise condemn build up in this scenario.
This is far better than the 2.0 version, which you keep advocating for, but aren't addressing the problems I bring up...
I'm happy to hear your revisions for 2.0, but just saying 2.0 is better, which can only even be argued as possibly true in the very thin band where survivors are good enough to not get steam rolled, but not good enough that Sadako gets completely minced... is not helpful.
Why don't these changes work with 3.0? What changes would work with 2.0?
Cause as it stands you're gonna really struggle to convince me that skill is born from landing a single m1 then spamming TP every 10s to mori a player, and it's the speed at which you do so that determines whether you win or lose.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3830764#Comment_3830764
I will interject and say 2.0 was much more brainless spammy than 3.0... in regards to the fact that, yes it did have a 10s cooldown, but once you got the ball rolling on 2.0 you always used your TP whenever it was up no matter what, but you can't do that on 3.0 to anywhere near the same effect.
yes you can. if survivors ignore tapes, you manually apply global condemn to the map. it is that counter-play is so blissfully obvious that the power ineffective. it is spammy as before if not more spammy.
As a lower level survivor you were always fighting for tapes once you lost yours; you couldn't grab one from an off TV, and you couldn't insert into an off TV either. If ever a couple of people got injured, you both don't have a tape and are now scrambling to get one.
At lower levels of the game, survivor are ineffective at looping meaning they'll grab a tape and get hit 10 second later. tape barely protects them because they're ineffective at holding the tape. There 7 condemn stacks so in practice, tape being broken is 3 strikes and your out.
Once in this position Sadako now just keeps teleporting, never letting you grab a tape. 10s cooldown is faster than you can run between TVs, and even if you find it, Sadako knows you don't have one and is looking to keep every TV off, so is a good chance you're gonna run straight into her teleporting on you.
this was skill-cieling aspect of old sadako. they did this way because they for some reason changed that you could put tape in any television. I think this aspect of her gameplay could been adjusted where grabing new tape is easier. still, grabbing new tape was not impossible. just more difficult. i think inserting new tape was more the issue meaning that on average 2 or 3 tape breaks was enough condemn.
Now in 2.0, there is the caveat that she needs to hit an m1 to knock tapes out of hands, and she has all the problems she had before… she's an m1 killer... and has no direct chase power. So this setup above makes her very dangerous and oppressive at lower levels... but at high level where players really make it hard to get that m1 hit, she basically has no power.
That is fair because of how sharp reward is for Sadako being successful at her ability.
If you're high in condemn by the time you get a tape, you can't not deliver it... you have to get your condemn down because of gaining condemn if Sadako hits you. However once you give up your tape, the TV you inserted into is now off as well and your codemn is only halved, so you now need another tape to protect you from the global condemn... but you've just turned off 2 TVs for 70s, and Sadako is jumping between the others, so you're still building condemn... you basically need to reach 3 powered TVs uninterrupted to deal with high condemn. If 2 players are in this situation, there simply aren't enough TVs to go around.
the goal was not to resist condemn entirely. the goal was to survive long enough before being condemned. in 2.0 version, due to how televisions worked, inserting a tape to shutdown two tv's was more win-more mechanic for survivor. in practice, if sadako tunnels a survivor's condemn meter, for example say survivor 1 has 5.75 stacks and survivor 2, 3, 4 have 0 or 0.75 stacks. if you allow survivor 1 to insert tape, you can redistribute condemn onto other 3 survivors so that survivor 1 has 2 stacks of condemn while survivor 2,3,4 if they lose tape have 2 stacks.
this is a lot like hook-states where objective of the game for survivor is to distribute hook-state evenly. you don't want 2 survivors 2 hook-states. you want every survivor 1 hook-state so that killer takes longest amount of time to get a 3 hook. same logic with condemn. you don't want 1 survivor with all condemn stacks. that will lead to instant mori very early into the game. you want condemn to be distributed evenly. that is what tape run was about in 2.0
This forces Sadako to try and keep TVs coming on her terms not the survivors. Once survivors have a tape, they cannot grab another one, so this combines together into making Sadako need to stall the game as much as possible to allow her to gain the control of her TVs.
statistically, there is 4x as many survivors as killer. it is always on survivors terms to pick-up tape and never on killer term. for example if all 4 survivor wait for TV's to turn on, suppose you teleport to 1 tv that survivor was near, the 3/4 will take tape out of the TV. So TV teleporting is always survivor terms and never on killer terms. Let's just one survivor takes tape to another television and other two survivors work on generator after grabing a tape. this is 5/7 televisions turned off. 80% of maps televisions are turned off. highly exploitable for SWF and not that hard to execute as solo.
She can teleport at will and can spam teleports, this is especially agregious in small 2 floor maps like the Game and Midwich, but on normal maps the survivors are turning the TVs off or sitting outside a TV radius, so the spam is not achieving anything a lot of the time.
Yes which is arguably only maps where Sadako's power functions properly because even if survivors do turn off many televisions, each television teleport in 18 meter radius is about 1/5th of the map. that's sizable radius that a survivor is likely to get pushed into televisions to build condemn. Otherwise, survivor on regular maps can just ignore the turned on televisions and loop m1 killer with no ability. again, regarding @radiantHero23 comment, this is not mindgame, it is knowledge check for whether survivor understands locations of TV, much of information is shown by auras so it barely knowledge check. It is just that on these maps, even when you know where TV are, they're largely unavoidable which plays into sadako being an effective killer. a killer is not suppose effective on two maps, it suppose effective on all maps.
Her condemn is a slowdown mechanism, in the form survivors have to get rid of their tape in a far off TV in order to be able to grab another one and turn off a TV next to a gen they need. This is what makes Ring Drawing such a good add-on, it gives you something to apply condemn back on survivors for grabbing your tapes.
The tape interaction is faster interaction in the entire game. Part of the survivors objective is to finish generator which spawn near televisions. Survivors can grab tapes while Similatiously going to generator leading to minimal time sink loss. It is hardly time sink.
Here's Paint illustration.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/50LEZ17EAZBK/image.png
Suppose Sadako spawns in K symbol and teleport to survivor 4 or walks there and finds survivor 4 before he takes tape. Survivor 1 , 2 and 3 can grab tapes. Let's say survivors agree to spilit up and do gens 1 and 2. they can take a tape from tv 1 and 2 and go to top-left generators.they can do generator and grab tapes while turning televisions off which allows him to hit 2 birds with 1 stone.
This is very different from actual slowdown such as Hex:plaything and Hex:penti where suppose a survivor gets hooked, a hex is formed and than survivor has to find hex, cleanse hex which takes 15 seconds, not 1 second and then return back to the gen. they have to make two trips back, spend 15 second cleanse totem, the totem can be re-lit by killer forcing survivor to spend more time on totems. The comparison that Sadako's ability is slowdown is a joke.
This is what makes Ring Drawing such a good add-on, it gives you something to apply condemn back on survivors for grabbing your tapes.
The ring drawing gives a pathetic 1 stack for hooking a survivor with a tape. in many cases, if survivor isn't hooked, they end up cleansing condemn stack from passively doing gens and moving around the map.
She had a reason to hook, and a reason to commit to chase and down. She also had reason to try and push survivors into her TVs and TP to get more condemn, and this was the mind game of baiting/cancelling a demanifest... The survivor even could eat a hit and make a break to deliver their tape if she got greedy (1s insert time). This was all good stuff.
It fixed none of pain points and create same problems that are worse then original 1.0 version of the killer.
3.0 definitely has some remaining pain points, but I think 3.0 is closest to the finished product of any of the iterations thus far. This is why I want the changes I suggest for Sadako 3.0.
I disagree entirely. the ability is the further away in effectiveness than the power has ever been.
yes you can. if survivors ignore tapes, you manually apply global condemn to the map.
That's the same in 2.0 though. If survivors ignore tapes then you keep spamming whenever you have TP up, and now once they have a tape getting caught causes the snowball faster, because removing condemn is harder on 2.0 once the train starts rolling.
At lower levels of the game, survivor are ineffective at looping meaning they'll grab a tape and get hit 10 second later.
Yes... but it's not how played out in practise... it was usually hit and run, and then spam TP and let survivors fight over tapes....
I think this aspect of her gameplay could been adjusted where grabing new tape is easier. still, grabbing new tape was not impossible. just more difficult
That was the problem, it was more difficult to get a tape, especially in SoloQ and for newer players. The longer you took to get one, the worse problem gets because Sadako is spamming TP every 10s. There was effectively no skill for Sadako at lower level, because you just hit and run and put the survivors on a mori clock that is far more in her favour if she gets it going, but does literally nothing if she can't get her first hit. Once you have 2 tapes off survivors the feedback loop starts on its own, survivors start competing for TVs.
There was little to be done at high level because until you get an m1 you have no power... so where exactly is this skill expression? If you can only get 1 tape off a survivor, you have to just follow them around not letting them get a tape and you try and take another tape somewhere if you can.
All of this makes Sadako 2.0 very one note and predictable... I'm interested to hear this idea to make it easier to grab a tape... because any solution I can think of breaks everything and she either has no power, or it remains mondo brain dead at mori clocking survivors who can't loop very well...
statistically, there is 4x as many survivors as killer. it is always on survivors terms to pick-up tape and never on killer term. for example if all 4 survivor wait for TV's to turn on, suppose you teleport to 1 tv that survivor was near, the 3/4 will take tape out of the TV. So TV teleporting is always survivor terms and never on killer terms.
//...
Suppose Sadako spawns in K symbol and teleport to survivor 4 or walks there and finds survivor 4 before he takes tape. Survivor 1 , 2 and 3 can grab tapes. Let's say survivors agree to spilit up and do gens 1 and 2. they can take a tape from tv 1 and 2 and go to top-left generators.they can do generator and grab tapes while turning televisions off which allows him to hit 2 birds with 1 stone.
This seems a little loaded, and is a scenario that can only realistically happens at the start of the game, and aasumes that Sadako uses none of her TPs at the start. I do think her TVs should turn on sooner in the trial to further reduce this problem. However, Survivors usually start in and around the same area, so they can't possibly turn off 4 TVs immediately.
The simple way this works for Sadako is even if she follows a basic 2 TP rule to turn off a TV and then TPs to where she's actually going. If you use this rule of 2 on TPs you'll keep control of majority of your TVs. On 3.0 if the TV is turned off when the survivor delivers the tape, it doesn't become a 70s cooldown, it stays at 45s. Sadako can easily keep control of her TVs so long as she keeps using them.
The other thing you're ignoring, is if every survivor is trying to this, they are wasting time walking across maps to deliver tapes while they have no condemn. It takes what... 20s? To run across the map to deliver a far tape? Well the first TV is down to 50s... about the same time it takes for the TV to turn on for Sadako herself... and survivors haven't been doing gens this whole time....
This is the rhythm of 3.0, the more time survivors spend dealing with tapes, the less time they spend on gens, so Sadako's goal is to try and engage as many people with her TP as possible at all times to burn resources and keeps survivors screwing around with tapes.
This is very different from actual slowdown such as Hex:plaything and Hex:penti where suppose a survivor gets hooked, a hex is formed and than survivor has to find hex, cleanse hex which takes 15 seconds, not 1 second and then return back to the gen. they have to make two trips back, spend 15 second cleanse totem, the totem can be re-lit by killer forcing survivor to spend more time on totems. The comparison that Sadako's ability is slowdown is a joke.
This is why a build like Sloppy Butcher, Hex: Face the Darkness, Plaything and Penti is a good build on her. You overload the survivors with side quests. Again, you can't grab a tape until you deliver one, and every second spent dealing with heals, dealing with Plaything, dealing with Penti, all while getting screams interrupting/revealing everything, and running across the map to deal with this building up condemn the whole time, it is something that Sadako can pick as and when to continue to squeeze condemn or commit to chase, and if you get a 3 condemn lock in on this setup, your laughing.
I could keep going with the quote war, but at a certain point it stops being constructive. So to conclude:
2.0 was unbelievably oppressive and mind numbingly easy at low levels. Low level players are players too and this power was incredibly punishing for weaker loopers… which might be excusable if she was good high level... but she was not, she got flattened at high level, so nobody wins. She was a pub stomp one trick, that once she got figured out, has basically nothing. This happens in a lot of games and is very unhealthy. It's the same thing as Tombstone Piece Myers; one gameplan that if he can't get it off, he sucks.
3.0 is a slow burn power, both sides play constantly around this side quest. Is Sadako too weak in this version? Yes. She needs buffs, but is it awfully designed and she has literally nothing she can do? No.
3.0 has the same state as Pig, where she is a macro snowball killer, where if a survivor ignores or doesn't respect her power, they can easily throw a game. Sadako and Pig have the same thing going where their mori threat allows them force survivors into non-optimal situations and slow the game down, and is always poking/looking out for that moment where someone cracks. If you play a high level team that perfectly plays around your slowdown mechanic, you will struggle to get your power/snowball going, but the threat is always there.
I get the impression, you don't like this playstyle... you want a high lethality killer, and that is fine... there are plenty of highly lethal killers that can kill a player quickly to choose from.
However I'm in the camp that prefers the more tactile and macro based killers, the killers where I can keep multiple survivors engaged at once and force them to make difficult choices. I prefer killer where I can catch a player out who hasn't worked out what I'm trying to do, rather than ones where I straight bully someone out of the game.
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@tippy2k2 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3831073#Comment_3831073
Lesson learned for next time I guess…
Just want to note the Regular game and Malicious expansion are distributed to other retailers, so is readily available at most board games retailers right now.
I've used a VPN and confirmed there are retailers dotted around the US that still have stock.(It seems a little hard by to come by in the US, but in the UK it's very easy to find right now if you REALLY can't find it and desperately need a copy)
The collectors edition you can only get through L99, and will be near impossible to come by, but they are releasing the parts of the collectors edition in expansions very soon (winter 2024)
So that would be the route I would go if you want the full set 😁
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I like this game a lot. @C3Tooth has played more than me, so is the true expert :P
The main pros for this game are: -- Relatively short (games are approx 1 hr), so doesn't overstay it's welcome. Also relatively easy setup.
- Has captured the idea of mind games very well with the movement cards.
- Each killer is quite unique and feels you can play to master one, or change the experience every time. They also adapt very well/feel familiar to how they feel in the normal DBD game.
- Each survivor has unique perks that also make them feel unique, and you can craft a survivor team around.
- The miniatures are great, especially if you get the little hooks for the survivors.
- The rules are relatively simple, so doesn't take too long to teach once you've got it. The backs of you player cards help A LOT!
- The maps have some unique quirks, that are interesting but largely don't factor in unless you play REALLY seriously (so doesn't overwhelm newer players).
The main cons for this game are: -
- The rule book leaves quite a few things unclear, though the rules are simple there are a few gotchas that you need to know that the rule book doesn't explain well.
- The killer game is generally harder than the survivor game. A killer mistake can be very costly and the game runs away from them often. (This is not too bad though, it means if you teach new players as the killer they don't have the hard role)
- The blue (locker and chest) and green (crow and pallet) token symbols are hard to tell apart from a distance, I coloured mine in to help distinguish them at a quick glance.
Overall its a fun game, and I heartily recommend. Still feels a little rough for killer… I'm not sure how much is me misplaying, and how much is the killer role being weak… but if you play it with a dungeon master approach, even then it is still a lot of fun.
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@crogers271 said:
I'll jump in on this because I'm being left to bleed out in the void.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3830872#Comment_3830872
If both teams are played to their max potential, where both sides take the best tools available to them, then they should tieYou can't balance a game that has as many differences between the sides as DbD. Just look at your sentence that I'm quoting "both teams". Except the killer isn't a team. Even if we limit this discussion to just 4 person SWFs, communication, group strategy, teamwork, those are skill elements that a killer, by design, never has to deal with. So either survivors are rewarded for having good teamwork, or the game is balanced around the presumption they will have good teamwork, in which case survivors have to excel at a skill the killer doesn't just to have a chance.
So in balance you have to look at how realistic it is to achieve those things. How likely/easy is it for the killer to be 'great' compared to the survivors to be 'great'.
The real, and only way, you could ever create balance is the way comp does, gives both sides a turn on each side. That's how sports does it, both sides get opportunities to play offense and defense. But DbD is like a basketball game where one side never gets the ball and only plays defense and then we try and make up rules for a what a win for them would be.
Fundamentally SWF has to exist for DBD to thrive by being able to play with your friends, but because it exists, the game has to be balanced so that the killer can compete with an organised SWF does it not?But this can just be turned on its head:
Fundamentally, soloq has to exist for DbD tto thrive by being able to play when your friends aren't on / don't play this game / you just want to play alone. But, because it exists, the game has to be balances so that soloq can compete with an elite killer, does it not?
Oh yeah, I absolutely understand your point, and it's completely valid… but this disparity is basically my argument… I didn't really wrap it up to a point, and left it to hang so my bad, but to try and clear that up:
- If you balance the game so that soloQ can win 50% of the time vs. the killer, then you put the Killer at a significant disadvantage vs. an organised SWF, and a slight disadvantage vs. a normal SWF.
- If you balance the game so that the killer can win 50% of the time vs. an organised SWF, then you put the survivors at a significant disadvantage for soloQ, and a slight disadvantage for a normal SWF.
- If you go halfway in the middle, and you balance so the killer can with 50% vs. an normal SWF, then the killer has a slight disadvantage vs. organised SWF, and soloQ has a slight disadvantage vs. killer.
However the problem of what I'm describing in these 3 scenarios is we're assuming the killer is playing optimally each time… and this is where we get into philosophical and subjective terms and what is best for the game. A truly balanced game would be that the most optimal way to play both sides would result in an equal chance to win… this is by definition balanced… Note: I'm deliberately avoiding individual killer strengths, since this muddies everything.
However as you correctly point out, this is not the average game experience in DBD; it is an asym, so the respective sides have very different set of skills. Both need to perform respectively well in chase, but the survivors need teamwork/coordination and map/tile awareness skills, and the killer needs greater predication/time management and objective/area control skills.
I don't think anyone would disagree is much harder for a survivor team to coordinate and bring their full strength to bear compared to the killer… one player can completely snowball the game out of the survivors hands, and it is why we have such a difference in killer being easier to learn to begin with. Thus the way it goes is we have to deliberately gimp the killer somewhat to allow survivors a reasonable chance at success despite them not playing optimally, and what we need to debate, is how far should the killer fall so that everyone is relatively happy?
After all, if at the very top end of play the killer is defaulted to being weaker than the survivor, where the only way to win is if survivors make mistakes…. what incentive is there to play killer? We could ask this same question for survivor the other way… but the incentive for survivor is that, if you play well enough with no mistakes, you should win.
Option 1 is simply not tenable, we can't have a game where the killer is so much weaker than the survivor team that 2 good players with a disorganised pair of yahoos can realistically go even. What incentive is there to play killer is you're at such a significant disadvantage where you playing at a consistent level can be beaten by mix of performances from soloQ. If SWF didn't exist, this would be perfect… but unfortunately SWF must exist, so this is off the table.
Option 2 is the one where both sides are played optimally and both sides have an even chance to win…. but as you point out, most players can't play optimally on survivor side, so killers win the game most of the time… and SoloQ gets very much buried more often than not… This is also not good.
Option 3 is where I believe the game currently sits, and is where it kinda must sit… and it depends how much value you think a SWF team has. Based on the stats from yesteryear, a SWF swings the game by about 9% kill rate. (Escape rates of 39%, 40%, 43% and 48% for solo, 2, 3 and 4 man teams respectively if my memory serves).
The questions at the end of all of this is:
- How often should an organised 4 man SWF team beat the killer? 50%? 55%? 60%?
- How often should a good solo player beat the killer? 40%? 45%? 50%?
- Should we be doing more to limit the SWF advantage?
- Is it even possible to limit that advantage, and how much by? (I think so, but it'll never go completely)
My argument isn't necessarily that I disagree with SoloQ having it tough… it's more how do you not make it tough with SWF making the chaos of solo Q not a thing?
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@THE_Crazy_Hyena said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3830647#Comment_3830647
Killers have been more balanced against SWF's, and good ones at that.
Solo survivor is a nightmare.For me, at least, that is not the experience (as much as I want it to be) there are never really any close games anymore where everyone is on the edge of their seat seeing what will happen. It is usually me destroying the survivors because the game hands me solo potatoes/ semi decent chill SWF players or me getting annihilated by a cracked team.
I have noticed this too when playing killer. Either you get a soloQ team / chill SWF, or you end up with a comp-level god-tier SWF who does all gens lightning-fast, and are ultra-cracked at chaining loops. There is no middleground there.
This is sadly due to how the MMR brackets work, and the highest bracket spans 700 points (1401-2100 MMR). So a player who is around 1400 MMR, can face players who are around 2100 MMR, due to this. The matchmaking does not discern between the actual MMR numbers (which would be much more fair), but instead prioritizes matching you against players within your bracket, to reduce queue times.It's kinda the point of balance though is it not?
If both teams are played to their max potential, where both sides take the best tools available to them, then they should tie, but it's still widely accepted that at max potential DBD is still a survivor sided game... the old SWF > Killer > SoloQ.
So this leaves us with a quandry... how "bad" should survivors be allowed to be in order to still consider the game fair?
Fundamentally SWF has to exist for DBD to thrive by being able to play with your friends, but because it exists, the game has to be balanced so that the killer can compete with an organised SWF does it not?
The only way you could make it fairer for SoloQ is if you literally made DBD a true soloQ at base.
Maybe if a ranked mode banned SWF the game could be balanced around that. Course we can't do that, cause that would mean SWFs would dominate casual games, so what killer in their right mind plays casual?
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@100PercentBPMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3830148#Comment_3830148
I'm a big fan of Iri Seal and "meme" addon.
Survivors are forced to spend all game perma broken, so survivors who notice the meme addon will never cleanse and thats how I get em with the easy Iri Seal downs
Paired with Tinkerer you'll always know where to go to find broken survivors. Paired with Fearmonger there's nothing for you to do but die.
Plague is a chess killer
Be careful using the word "chess" round these parts 😏😏😏😏
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@GentlemanFridge said:
I think you’re confusing what’s actually happening here. Also, this clip you posted never said what you did.
A direct hit never dealt damage, but it does apply a slight hindered debuff. It never outright cancelled the damage, however.
When an unknown is aiming at you, you’re weakened, and he’s pretty close, it might be in your best interest to run straight at him. He can only look down so far when aiming, meaning that you can make it really hard for him to damage you with the explosion. You will most likely still “catch” the projectile, but it will likely explode behind you, therefore not damaging you.
I tried to view the clip, but seemed to be broken... is there a secret to viewing? Preferably without signing into tiktok because that thing gives me <insert forum bannable for mentioning it horrible disease of choice here>.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3830729#Comment_3830729
i always thought the mindgames are suppose occur within the chase and the interception point between sadako catching the survivor attempting to insert the tape.
i am unable to be convinced if you are unable give valid points.
I will interject and say 2.0 was much more brainless spammy than 3.0... in regards to the fact that, yes it did have a 10s cooldown, but once you got the ball rolling on 2.0 you always used your TP whenever it was up no matter what, but you can't do that on 3.0 to anywhere near the same effect.
2.0 Sadako
As a lower level survivor you were always fighting for tapes once you lost yours; you couldn't grab one from an off TV, and you couldn't insert into an off TV either. If ever a couple of people got injured, you both don't have a tape and are now scrambling to get one.
Once in this position Sadako now just keeps teleporting, never letting you grab a tape. 10s cooldown is faster than you can run between TVs, and even if you find it, Sadako knows you don't have one and is looking to keep every TV off, so is a good chance you're gonna run straight into her teleporting on you.
If you're high in condemn by the time you get a tape, you can't not deliver it... you have to get your condemn down because of gaining condemn if Sadako hits you. However once you give up your tape, the TV you inserted into is now off as well and your codemn is only halved, so you now need another tape to protect you from the global condemn... but you've just turned off 2 TVs for 70s, and Sadako is jumping between the others, so you're still building condemn... you basically need to reach 3 powered TVs uninterrupted to deal with high condemn. If 2 players are in this situation, there simply aren't enough TVs to go around.
Sadako knows all this, so she literally just keeps doing hit and run/TPing around the map every time it's up once she knocks a tape out of someone's hand.
Now in 2.0, there is the caveat that she needs to hit an m1 to knock tapes out of hands, and she has all the problems she had before… she's an m1 killer... and has no direct chase power. So this setup above makes her very dangerous and oppressive at lower levels... but at high level where players really make it hard to get that m1 hit, she basically has no power.
3.0 Sadako
Sadako now will have TVs being turned off by survivors to prevent her from TPing to them and block the TV from condemning them, but the tape no longer protects them itself, and the major play point this time is the condemn lock in mechanic.
This forces Sadako to try and keep TVs coming on her terms not the survivors. Once survivors have a tape, they cannot grab another one, so this combines together into making Sadako need to stall the game as much as possible to allow her to gain the control of her TVs.
She can teleport at will and can spam teleports, this is especially agregious in small 2 floor maps like the Game and Midwich, but on normal maps the survivors are turning the TVs off or sitting outside a TV radius, so the spam is not achieving anything a lot of the time.
Her condemn is a slowdown mechanism, in the form survivors have to get rid of their tape in a far off TV in order to be able to grab another one and turn off a TV next to a gen they need. This is what makes Ring Drawing such a good add-on, it gives you something to apply condemn back on survivors for grabbing your tapes.
Now granted managing condemn is not especially hard to do for Survivor... and is much harder for Sadako to capitalise on... but initially there was no cap on the condemn lock in mechanic, and she was initially praised in this setup, since that fixed all her pain points. She had a reason to hook, and a reason to commit to chase and down. She also had reason to try and push survivors into her TVs and TP to get more condemn, and this was the mind game of baiting/cancelling a demanifest... The survivor even could eat a hit and make a break to deliver their tape if she got greedy (1s insert time). This was all good stuff.
Then that was hit by a cap... this is where this power went a little sideways, as when it just locked in whatever condemn you were at, condemn was a legitimate threat. Alas the cap kinda neutered it; it's kinda dangerous if you get locked in at 3 stacks, but not really... and any more condemn than that is an absolute waste, so you need to good at counting, which is annoying.
Anyway the point is 3.0 CAN spam but it is often not rewarded, same as pushing survivors into TVs isn't rewarding unless you're REALLY good at counting the condemn on survivors.
Overall
3.0 is garnered more around the macro of her tapes, it works as a slowdown mechanic, and requires using timing and keeping a mind on which TVs are in what state, rather that 2.0s score a hit or 2 and then spam TP as fast as possible to all nearby TVs and hard rush condemn someone out of the game.
It's also why I prefer 3.0 over 1.0 personally, because 3.0 Sadako is more about a slow squeeze on all survivors rather than hyper focusing one (though full disclosure I didn't get much chance to play 1.0 Sadako before 2.0 came in, I was still learning other killers).
3.0 definitely has some remaining pain points, but I think 3.0 is closest to the finished product of any of the iterations thus far. This is why I want the changes I suggest for Sadako 3.0.
A weaker global condemn, better direct TP condemn, and a passive for tapes I think makes this all better, her cap for condemn isn't so naff if the condemn build up is more consistent, and the macro round TVs is far more engaging than "grab tape when can".
It needs a little more polish, but it's almost there, and I think it's far easier to correct this version than the others.
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I preface this with I don't actually know... cause I've never unlocked a perk in the Shrine of Secrets…
However if I were to guess, does it show it on the respective character for that perk in character select in the top left? I believe you can still select a character you don't own, and I think it shows the next perk levels you can reach for each character perk.
E.g. if you have Resurgence unlocked at tier1 on Jill, when you highlight Jill it will show the other 2 perks in yellow and Resurgence in green as a "level up to unlock this" indicator.
I need a character I dont own to check I'm not talking out my butt, so apologies if I'm wrong, but I think that's where it is 😅
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@Halloulle said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3830228#Comment_3830228
You kinda did completely disregard the qualifying statement. If you tell someone to "tough it out" you already acknowledge that they have a miserable experience - otherwise you wouldn't tell them to tough it out, you'd tell them to not be petty about a minor thing. Demanding people that you know are having a miserable experience stick around and endure said miserable experience for your entertainment is something I believe is pretty low.
I don't think that's a counter argument at all. There are instances where a killer is being an undeniable jerk and the experience isn't fun, but there are plenty more cases of the killer just playing the game and survivors pitches a fit cause they screwed a vault, or got mind gamed, or see a perk or killer they don't like.
Where do you draw the line of what is acceptable to quit to, and what isn't? You can't, and no one can, because fun/misery is subjective. Some people happily take camping, tunneling, slugging, etc as a part of the challenge, the comp scene for example. While they are not the typical player, they are still a part of the player base, and who can you name as the arbiter to decide what is OK to quit to, and what isn't?
I think the easiest way to think about it is, think of your favourite killer to face, assuming playing fair and completely non toxic.
Now imagine every time you face that killer, one of the players hears their terror radius and immediately runs to the killer, and insists on getting downed and SoH, or othwrwise does nothimg all game but throw. That person just completely killed your game, and you never get to play a normal game against your favourite killer.
If anyone complains about that person is your response "well they are clearly having a miserable experience, and they shouldn't be forced to tough it out"? That seems a slippery slope, and the fundamental fact is by quitting you give the troll killers exactly what they want, and only punish your survivor teammates and the killers that do actually want to make a game of it.
Most players would agree, egrious trolling and nasty/boring/toxic gameplay needs working out of the game, but quitting is hardly something that can be defended or justified, except for the most extreme cases... and most quitters simply don't save it for extreme cases.... which is why it needs to be cracked down upon.
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@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3829994#Comment_3829994
I’m not a fan of global condemned or all TV condemned.
1. Any form of map wide condemned makes her teleport useless since the interaction for disabling condemned and turning off TVs is the same.
2. It is extremely annoying to play against and only encourages tp spamming over actually chasing or interacting with survivors.
That’s why I want 1.0 with buffs.
I see what you're saying, and I wouldn't necessarily be against that either. Though I personally think I would prefer the 3.0 version with a weaker global condemn and a direct teleport bonus because that does mean survivors do still have to interact with tapes, but there is more thinking involved all round.
Fundamentally she is still an m1 killer, and her condemn is her slowdown mechanism. If you have condemn solely with only direct TPs and holding tapes it means that ignoring her TVs and cranking gens with your items is usually better. After all, why would I volunteer for a guaranteed condemn stack every 30 seconds by holding a tape and losing use of my item, when I can instead force Sadako to commit to me, or only get a 1 stack every 45s she TPs to me? Her 1.0 version was quite weak unless you took very specific add-ons and benefitted tunnelling/slugged 1 player constantly.
With the revised 3.0 version, there is a passive build up of condemn in play still, but actual direct predictive and purposeful TPs are more effective, and an active decision for survivors about when they want to grab the tape. Paying attention to the HUD and shutting down a TV at the opportune time would be more rewarding than where it currently is of always grab tape whenever possible. However also ignoring the global build up and grabbing a tape when you can complete an objective for a quick delivery might be more preferable.
Sadako in this form still also has more choices to make, she can chase survivors at loops, but has to be demanifested to TP, so constantly has to assess which gens are important, and guess what survivors are doing to decide if she should close out chase, or pressure TVs that aren't shut off. Her ability to spread a limited condemn allows her to maintain pressure on all survivors, so It's a more thinking version all around that builds up pressure to breaking point, rather than try and condemn out 1 player as fast as possible.
At least that's how I see it.
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@Lixadonna said:
It should be Basekit tbh. All those hits that shouldn't be hits.
@Yoshirama said:
No, they better fix those fake hits killers have all the time
We're also gonna advocate for fixing all those missed hits that should be hits as well yeah? 😏
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@Toystory3Monkey said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3830153#Comment_3830153
already addressed that. bad fountain rng = lost game. still have to play around extremely finite resource. still have to go out of your way to get it.
and camping, as i also already said, fell off as a strategy when you cannot facecamp secure stages properly anymore unless you get super good bottlenecks which is also very situational and deniable.
so, as i said, overrated af killer who gets her reputation from stomping players who have zero idea what to do while not taking much effort or specific skill to perform.
plague mains are one of those "high tier killer" mains who you watch being stomped by any half decent lobby unless they bring iri. complete joke of a killer in a desperate need of modernization.
Hmmmm... I'm not so sure... her apples and iri are good add-ons that maybe she is a little dependent on, but she has several options to mitigate her weaknesses, and Plague has unique traits that are fun to build around where her power gives her a unique synergy with perks.
You can make some pretty nasty perks/combos on Plague that get greater value from her power such as Coup de Grace, Blood Echo, Spirit Fury, Thanataphobia, even Alien Instinct, and of course Hex builds.
I think her only real issue is when she has her Corrupt Purge she has to mad respect pallets, because getting baby toed completely takes away her power, which can make getting some shots on tight tiles really tricky and frustrating...
Plague's identity is one where survivors pick their poison, and depending on the add-ons Adiris takes, may end up playing with fire for her to snowball very hard with either strategy.
If we wanted to make her power not reliant on Survivors purging, what could realistically be done without making her just a carbon copy of another killer?
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I do think the 3.0 version is along the right track, but I'd consider something like:
- 0.5 stacks for global condemn for anyone within 16m of a powered TV.
- Additional 0.5 condemn for anyone within 16m of the TV Sadako teleports to.
- Bring back her passive condemn when grabbing tapes. I'm thinking of 1 condemn per ~40s.
- Condemn is halved on different elevations, using the same logic as the AFC.
Would perhaps also consider an add-on pass, as she has a couple of really good add-ons, and a whole heap of pretty useless ones…
Sadako struggles mightily vs. a team that really knows what they're doing... she's in the same boat as Pig where you can play her effectively, and she has that layer of macro that demands a different skillset to other killers, making her very unqiue and cool... but most survivors don't respect her game plan, and she gets a high KR because if it... but against anyone in the know, you have to be very ruthless and really press any slight advantage you get to really squeeze at the right time.
I don't think she needs radical changes... just a bit of rejigging of her condemn strength to give her some more skill expression and potency when played well, and an add-on pass so shes a little less predictable in how she plays, and I'd pretty much be happy with her.
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Those would be 2 nice changes. For the Chainsaw Sweep, a pulse or a sound cue from Bubba would be perfect.
I'm not too sold on the changes to Grisly or Rusted chains though. Though Bubba does chew through health states, Bubba's add-on issues are that his acceleration is defined to be 60% of his chainsaw sweep duration. Now that his chilli's are basekit (2.5s instead of 2.0s), his acceleration speed is slower at base than it was before. This makes Scratch/Beast Mark's very desirable add-ons, not onlybgiving him a greater max speed, but also improving his acceleration on his first sweep too. Bubba's issue is it's VERY hard to turn down this add-on for something else.
However in theory, the alternative approach to address this problem is to instead going all in on his chainsaw, to instead mind game for an m1 instead without having the acceleration issue, something keeping players injured facilitates. These add-ons also allow Bubba to consider use of M1 based perks like Surge, STBFL, and of course his own perks Franklin's Demise and Knockout, and I feel having the option to make m1 builds appealing is a good thing.
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Man, you've been a great CM... sad to see you leave that role, but it's great to see you moving on up, and truly deserved!
All the best Peanits!
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Unfortunately she's an m1 killer with an unreliable stealth, no chase power and a counterable TP/slowdown. As such the only thing Sadako can realistically do is play hit and run, only taking short chases and try to keep her TVs turning back on on her terms, not the survivors.
Take any hit or pallet you can from Survivors and teleport away, and try to prevent gens popping as long as you possibly can until survivors run out of resources and you can start to snowball with condemn and global map pressure.
Good survivors won't let you get your snowball without a hard fight, and the longer you take to force a pallet or a hit out of them, the worse you'll do, but if you build for her right and really play to her strength Sadako can be decent… for an m1 killer at least.
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Egg makes Wesker a little cheesy, but outside of that he is quite jukable and can be mind gamed perfectly fine. His large TR gives you more warning he is coming compared to someone like Blight, and he has a significant cooldown if he uses his power for mobility.
Wesker is strong, but not OP, and has been this way since release... The only significant hit to his power from where he has always been, is he can't quite tunnel as easily since his infection now resets after a hook... so a survivor isn't hit by the hindered effect for longer if he tries to tunnel, but doesn't have the skill to close it out... which is a little sad if that's what people were citing that as the reason for him being "strong" and is definitely something to be glad is gone.
Wesker does not need a nerf, he is fine. Play against good survivors or learn to play against him as a survivor.
Wesker does not need a buff, he is fine. The only argument I would give the time of day to regarding buffing Wesker is his longer infection time after an unhook allows survivors to ignore his infection for a while, giving time to complete heals/gens without much fear...
The easy fix for that is have the infection rate double when performing conspicuous actions. You can rush out a gen, but you're likely/risking getting infected where he can find you.
Other than that, he is absolutely perfect as he is. Fun and fair.
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Even if the perk isn't buffed, one QoL I would like is to have it charge while stood still and degrade while moving, only have it function when fully charged, but at least if I slightly adjust I only have to wait a fraction of a second. It's quite frustrating how if you even move a pixel to adjust if you change your mind, you're back to waiting for 4 seconds.
Letting me stand still for 4s to charge it, then making it take 2s to deplete when doing actions/moving would make it much less irritating to use.
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Post 326 of saying the timed and permanent effects for Knockout should be switched round. Maybe buff the effect a tad to give it value, but have it a tool more not to lose a slug.
For 25s seconds: -
- The aura of the dying survivor is blocked for their teammates over 32/24/16m.
- Suffers from deafened and blindness condition.
- Reduced field of view.
While in the dying state: -
- Reduced crawling speed -50%.
- Reduced recovery speed -25%
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I figure it would be a damned if you do, damned if you don't deal.
SB makes it so that you can tunnel more easily, and the counter to it would be body blocking... but Forced Penance makes it so you can't really do that either.
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@PetTheDoggo said:
Issue is how it affects each killer. Like I will gladly go for this as Oni, Blight etc. because I know odds are in my favor.
But if I really need 4k for adept/challenge, then I still would rather play it safe to secure 4k with most M1 killers, especially if last survivor is not injured. so rather than secure 4k with slug, you just need to make sure last survivor is injured.
Well, unless I need 4k for something, or survivors annoyed me, then I just go afk and let survivor find hatch on their own.Yeah, I deliberately made it so you can still slug for the 4k. There are Adepts, challenges and even gold/iri ranks for each season that kinda need you to slug for the 4k.
However my idea here is that the killer is given strong incentives to play for hatch if they dont actually neednthe 4k, since the potential rewards are very high. So we get the best of both, killers aremt actively being punished for trying to get their 4k when they need to, and Survivors get to try for hatch more often and keep playing otherwise.
The disparity of killer strength is what it is. There isn't a way I can think you can buff weaker killers and not strong killers in this scenario... but floor is open if anyone can think of anything 😁😁😁😁
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The 3 changes I think Nurse needs are: -
- Nerf - Blindness during charging a blink and during a blink.
- Nerf - Reset blink tokens on a stun (survivors actually get rewarded for successfully stunning her rather than going down anyway 3 seconds later).
- Buff - Get rid of yanking her camera down during fatigue and instead have her release breathe, the world turns white and survivors go invisible for the duration of the fatigue.
Blindness Blinks
SupaAlf has been suggesting Blindness while Nurse is charging a blink and during blinks as a change for a while, and it's such an elegant solution.
Nurse has unique mind games from the fact she in slower than survivors and must blink to land hits, but she ignores the usual counters survivors have... moving erratically and counter to her predictions makes it harder for her to adjuat and more likely to miss, and this is a lot of fun for both sides. Nurse is satisfying to land hits on, and survivors get to actually try and juke.
However those mind games don't mean anything while she has auras up, she can just blink perfectly knowing exactly what a survivor is doing at all times. Auras basically kill her own unique blink prediction gameplay, and should not be a thing.
Stun Token Reset
Nurse doesn't typically get stunned, she doesn't play pallets, and trying to flashlight save vs. a Nurse is... brave... to say the least. Decisive Strike is reasonably the only stun you're likely to get, and that doesn't often let you get anywhere to avoid the next double blink since she already has it fully charged.
Resetting tokens on stuns would add actual rewards for successfully throwing a pallet on Nurse as a prediction of her blink, and makes a flashlight save a tangible risk vs. a reward.
Decisive Strike doesn't have as much effect as you think. On 2 blink Nurse it takes 6s to recharge blinks, the 4 second stun will result in it having only 2 seconds to go before she is back to full charges... however with the blind change, 2 seconds could be enough to allow you to break line of sight and continue playing the Nurse mind games. Where DS really shines is 3 blink Nurse, which now becomes 9 seconds before Nurse is back to full kilter, making DS actually useful at limiting 3 blink Nurse's unbelievable chase down power for a time. She's still very dangerous after a DS, but the survivors chances of doing something are a little better with this change.
Fatigue Visual Rework
One big problem with Nurse's accessibility is she is so disorientating to play, and even causes motion sickness. A newer player has not learned the maps yet and so needs to look around to keep context of where they are and try and predict survivor movement. Yanking their camera down however doesn't allow them to assess where a survivor might go while they recover from a missed blink.
Changing her Fatigue to cause her to temporarily lose connection to the world as she releases her breathe and take a moment ot realign would allow newer players to try and figure out where the survivor has gone and also not feel so horrible to play.
I'd like to give Nurse more changes to help newer players, but fundamentally Nurse is about learning to blink.... so there is only so much you can do.
However that's the last few changes I think Nurse needs and she is golden.
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To actually be helpful, as an overarching set of principles, the main thing I want is the clear distinction of dreamworld vs. the awake world, a feeling like it was the original version, where Freddy is a presence in the awake world and a monster in the dream.
Freddy would need a big power spike of some description when you're asleep somehow, but my vision is that the act of being pulled into the dream world needs to have that "Oh #########" moment it has in the films. I also don't wanna be able to bounce in and out of the dream world either via skillchecks and yoinks...
The other mechanism that annoys me most right now is that I have a neat little timer telling me when I'm gonna be in the dream world... I wanna be nervous and unsure about when I'm gonna be pulled in and when I'm not.
I imagining a greater rework of his power in the dream, but to give an example regarding the sleep mechanics, I'd be happy with something like:
- Microsleep built up to say a max of 80% passively but I cannot see it on my HUD. (100% is say 100s)
- Conspicuous actions increases the charge rate by 50% or so up to the cap.
- Freddy can see survivor sleep timers on his HUD.
- Freddy can pull me into the Dream by hand like his old version at 10% per second.
- Skill check misses give me 25% dream progress (and can pull me into the dream). Skill Checks in the dream do not wake me up, or at least require multiple failures to escape.
Something in the same spirit as this would be much cooler imo.
Also wouldn't mind of objects and random patches in the world got bloody and gorey shaders applied, or random red lights like Freddy's boiler room in the dream 😀
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It would fit thematically with the perk that you would have a base effect while healthy, and an amplified effect while being injured.
Something like the perk is always in effect, but you have 7.5% extra skillchecks while healthy, and 15% while injured. That would give a nice fringe benefit in that the perk can also be used as a "Doctor training perk", where you take it to boot camp yourself.
The only concern of course being Stake Out and Hyper Focus... but considering you are making your skillchecks basically into Huntress Lullaby Doctor voluntarily, and each Stake Out stack makes it tougher for you, is that reasonable? Would probably need someone to do the maths... Beabud maybe 😁
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3792019#Comment_3792019
You're closer in the middle of the basement stairs to the hook than on the landing turn near the bottom, that's just how radius works. But reassurance doesn't work on the stairs, and does at the landing. Reassurance also works through floors on maps like Midwich, so it's not a verticality issue.
The only reason it wouldn't work on the stairs is either a bug or they specifically disabled it until you're fully in the basement.
Given that it doesn't work standing directly above the basement hook, I'm inclined to say it's not a bug, but it's intentional.
Interesting, it would be a very simple point to point vector comparison, hence why it works through floors.
I always assumed the 6m difference was specifically chosen as it was too far for basement, and otherwise never thought about it...
However now you've said it, there is no way the distance is too far.... it myat be hard coded to not work until you are actually inside basement, same logic I guess as Strength in Shadows...
This also implies BHVR has a property for hook type as well, of which basement is one of them... and this is different to Scourge Hook property. Neat.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3827558#Comment_3827558
please his read @Coffeecrashing full and complete in detail. i'll highlight the key detail.
That’s why the hitbox is so small, it’s why the travel speed is so slow when considering the hitbox size, and why he throws knives from two different locations. This is also specifically done so that the knives are a battle of attrition, where the survivors are trying to dodge as many knives as possible, and try to time out the laceration meter.
The summary of what he is talking about is that in order for trickster to be about pure accuracy, his projecitle speed has to be hit scan but once you put Hitscan on a killer, the survivor is no longer about dodging because you can't dodge hitscan. it is about killer aiming. If we say that survivor should be allowed to dodge knives than this conversely means the opposite for killer. the killer be allowed to MISS knives.
Like Coffeecrashing states, it is not about dodging the killer entirely, it is about war of attrition of dodging and timing out the killer chase. In other words, your not suppose empty his knives count to 0. your suppose DELAY the chase as much as possible from going down. This logic is also same for huntress. Like part of reason why huntress has 7 hatchets is not for you to dodge all 7 hatchets. it is designed for you to DELAY the down as much as possible. your not realistically suppose to dodge all 7 hatchets or all 44 knives. your meant to win war of attrition between downs and map pressure and gens.
Part of reason why his laceration meter is 15 seconds is because he is NOT GOOD even when you have NO LACERATION meter decay. So adding a mechanic that hurts you as killer when you aren't strong enough without said drawback means that drawback shouldn't be effective. So unless they omega buff trickster where decaying knives is warranted as drawback. there isn't any counter-play to decaying his knives in most instances because of his current time efficiency being poor without it. The killer has to have massive upside for killer to have a downside.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3824490#Comment_3824490
First, it is difficult to use blank stats for trickster because killers like trickster tend to be specialized killers where average player does poorly with the killer compare to the player that specializes in the killer. The other aspect to talk about is that trickster did not receive blanket buffs. he receives buffs in some areas and nerf in other area's. as a result, his kill-rate did not overall improve. it stayed the same. pick-rate, he has very defined play-style you either resonate with or do not resonate with. More players prefer the 1 hit = 1 health-state play-style over the war of attrition gameplay that trickster promotes. in my opinion, i think survivor misunderstand his gameplay and as a result, trickster struggles to get straight positive buffs without getting sizable negative changes in the process. It is like 2 steps forward, 1 step back with him.
This whole conversation left a bitter taste in my mouth and I'd rather just move on from it, but the points I was making included: -
- You can't make modern spam Trickster strong cause there is barely any skill requirement/expression. He becomes oppressive if his power is really strong while also so forgiving.
- As such my argument with coffee centers around his narrative that 4.6 is better received than 4.4 Trickster. It is not, he's basically unchanged, just as many people dislike the changes as like them.
- Which feeds into your point that he's specialised, so we basically arguing about Trickster players and who's opinions among them matter. I would argue a divisive choice is not something you can consider a net positive by definition.
I'm responding to yourself and your (very reasonable and good point), but as I say, have no interest in this conversation further, as I'm liable to turn it into an argument rather than a debate.
However the argument boils down to as you stated, Trickster is no more popular than he was before, and is only a talking point for players who liked his specialisation playstyle.
Mine and Coffee's argument revolves around which group of players and principles should be considered in the conversation.
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Mostly I figure the disparity comes from a difference that in DBD, what is meta doesn't necessarily translate to fun.
For example, it is meta for the whole survivor team to take Commodius Toolboxes and BNPs with something like Sprint Burst, We'll Make It/Prove Thyself, Decisive Strike, Blood Rush and hard rush the killer before they can realistically react or create any pressure.
It is meta to take triple blink/longer lunge Nurse with something like Predator, Pain Res, Leverage/Lethal Pursuer and Grim Embrace and tunnel and slug the ever loving crap out of the survivor team to victory…
However neither of these things are particularly fun or interesting... in both cases you will often win the game in 4 minutes or less...
So what is meta in DBD is used because it's strong... but it's not necessarily common because it doesn't make much of a game.
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@Jaysax said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3826156#Comment_3826156
A good game / proper game would give the player a choice.
That would actually be a pretty sick feature across the board… first person mori's and third person mori's…. you should suggest that :D
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@theonryo123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3825930#Comment_3825930
I have to disagree. I been playing dead by daylight for 5 years now and I still do not remember certain parts of maps that well for example lery's. Windows do not need a nerf that is not the problem at all if you have a issue with windows it means you are complain about your losses when you play killer. Plus windows is a good information tool for everybody to use especially if a survivor is getting chased and if they use a certain pallet that has been broken by the killer other survivors need to know which pallets are available in their area while in chase. I think you of all people need to stop complaining and just play the game. Distortion was already nerfed in a way and now windows??
if you have a issue with windows it means you are complain about your losses when you play killer
That is a very unfair assessment of both my argument and me. If you don't want to discuss/tackle the actual argument I made, that kinda suggests you don't actually have a counter point. It seems you have instead resorted to the tried and true social media strategy of discredit your opponent by any means necessary, and resorted to straw-manning me as an entitled killer main who wants free wins.
My opinion of WoO from a killer's perspective is summaried quite succintly here:
@UndeddJester said:
I now consider WoO a killer boot camp perk, where whenever a survivor runs it, it's actively helping the killer get better at learning the game, as Survivors are somewhat competent all the time. It makes a bad survivor actually somewhat in the same realms as a veteran survivor with non of the work or effort.
It is however also turning the survivors brain to mush. Removes any need to actually think, and allows them to just be a bot that sits on a gen until licked by the terror radius, run the yellow brick road with Lithe and likely be fine... at least until they start going against strong killers that counter that and have literally learned none of the fundamental skills you need to try and play basic mind games or macro... but... thems the breaks I guess.
Personally I'd like to run WoO from time to time or recommend it new players, but it comes with the caveat "if you don't care about actually learning to play DBD, take WoO, it'll help you win more often".
It may interest you to know I actually play about 60% Survivor now and 40% killer, my disdain for WoO comes from the fact the perk works like driving a car with a satnav. I can drive the same route for a year with a satnav and still not know how to get to my destination without it. I can do the same trip having to pre-plan the route with an actual map and try to follow said route, and learn it in 2 trips.
For this same reason, I cannot use WoO, it actively inhibits my ability to learn and makes me bad at the game, and is why I won't recommend it to any other new players who start as well. You've been playing 5 years… great, a lot of veteran players will talk about WoO like it is great/necessary for new players to learn. Well I've been playing for 1 year and 8 months, I actually am someone who has gone through learning the ridiculous iceberg that is modern DBD as a newer player, and I am telling you, this perk hinders your ability to learn, it doesn't help it.
If you have an actual point to discuss I will happily listen and debate it. However if you're jsut gonna try and claim I'm wrong by hurling unfounded accusations at me, I would ask you to please do better.
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@Jaysax said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3823030#Comment_3823030
I just hope they don't change Pig's mori to be third person permenantly. I would rather it stay first person for killer.
I don't mind them making it third person, as long as they gave it a proper pass, added some flavour of Amanda's character (even something as small as adding a head tilt before the slash) and made it actually look good, like her grabbing the survivors hair to lead to the throat slash after she stabs their hand, maybe the Survivor flounders around as they die from the slit throat.
This kinda energy:
I generally want to see a Pig model and animation pass…
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Some of the hits have been especially furstrating at times, where literally it feels liek the wind of the pallet is what stunned me…
I can only assume it is lag or rollback or something… what would be nice is if the killer had a core hitbox that is maybe 10% smaller inside the current one, and a second hitbox that matches the current one, and have handling where if only the second hitbox is hit, but not the first (as in these barely get clipped edge cases) the stun time is halved. Would mean that a proper hit still stuns in full, but these edge cases aren't quite so annoying.
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Have them work like fake Knight guards? Sounds good to me.
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@Caiman said:
Survivors drop items upon being downed, instead of by being M1'd. It makes more sense and is less of a complete item shutdown but still functions as an anti-item perk.
This does synergise with Bubba himself a little more to be fair… though of course he has an add-on that knocks items out of hands with his chainsaw, so that's kinda a moot point.
It also does open up the likes of Hillbilly, Blight, Nurse, etc to use it to knock medkits out of hands and force people to group up to heal, which is something I don't feel like is needed on those killers.
and is less of a complete item shutdown
I'd have to say, this is kinda the point of the perk is it not? To have a means of shutting down medkits and flashlights, as well as toolbox replenishment builds? It isn't even particularly strong, what is the point/identity of the perk if it doesn't do this?
EDIT: If the goal is to combat the Weave Attunment combo, it is already being touched.
If the goal is to reduce the annoyance of losing the item, the only thing I could think of is something like after getting hit by an M1, the survivor is affected for 3 minutes after being hit by a basic attack. The survivor is incapacitated while they hold an item. This would be a callback to Franklin where he is constantly frustrated by not being able to do things due to his disabilities. This would mean as a survivor you get to keep your item, but you can't heal or flashlight, or do anything productive like repair gens whilstsoever you hold an item.
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I want to be able to recommend it to my newbie friends without the knowledge that it'll forever hinder them from actually growing and getting better at the game, preventing them ever getting to the point they don't need it. I also would like to use it for myself in a few specific builds without actively hindering my own ability to learn the game as well.
That's the reason I want it nerfed, WoO has a paradox in it's design currently. If its primary purpose is to help new players get better at the game, it doesn't succeed in doing that, it makes them lazier and more reliant on WoO just to function. You can't learn to ride a bike if you never take the training wheels off. It's value for more experienced players is limited more towards scouting the layout of tiles early, and having an early warning for what tiles have already been used when their chase starts.
A cooldown after a fast vault doesn't impede the experienced players usage of the perk, and retains it's niche. A cooldown also DOES actually help new players learn the game, because they actually have to remember the location of vaults they saw, and they naturally mentally map out tiles and structures as they play through necessity. They still get the benefit of the perk ensuring they are able to put up a fight to a degree, but are also actually learning tiles and building a fundamental skillset that then enhances their ability to play DBD without WoO rather than hindered from doing so.
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Hehehehe we'll see, sadly no Luck Rework xD
@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3824984#Comment_3824984
Ah, I'm really happy right now!
I hope it will be a good change. BHVR knows what to they should do to him. It is just a matter of actually doing it.
Cautiously optimistic my friend!!!!! 🥳
He's even getting new perks 😶😶😶😶
Also Myers!!!!!!!!!! 🤘😁🤘