UndeddJester
UndeddJester
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Being unhook happy is consistently the biggest survivor mistake I see in this game, and one of the main reasons I tend to scoff at survivor complaints of camping and tunneling.
95% of the time when I see camping and tunneling its the result of survivors allowing it/making it easy for the killer to do. Running to hook while being chased by the killer, looping near the hook, or unhooking early with the killer within 20m and 55s still on the timer.
I've had to ban myself from things like Deliverence, Borrowed Time, We'll Make It, Desperate Measures, old WGLF (thank god that got buffed) because I rarely get the chance to unhook anyone since no one stays on gens.
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Well, for horror it does make sense, due to the last girl idea.
Horror is all about provoking your fear, and using your empathy against you. Men are naturally more invested in and protective of women than they are of other men, and women naturally empathise with the intimidation and vulnerability of a powerful male killer vs. an innocent woman. We're simply all genetically coded to have more investment in female characters in horror than we are male characters.
Also women tend to want to play the fantasy of being a cute/beautiful woman, and men tend to want to see cute and beautiful women... so... shrug
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I understand the reasons why people don't want it extended... But BHVR always seem to schedule limited time game modes when I have to go away for family/work... 😭
I can be months without needing to go anywhere, and the moment I actually have to go... event 🪦
Thankfully I got to go ham for the first few days, and I'll get a couple more over this weekend... but personally I wouldn't mind an extension 😔
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@vladspellbinder said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3843607#Comment_3843607
The only thing I do not agree with here is opening up chests while slugged. I get the idea behind it but think it'd be a little bit wonky. If the chest is already open then, yeah, swap items but if the chest is still locked you can't wiggle the lock to get it open.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3843616#Comment_3843616
Base-kit Unbreakable but better! No thanks. Base-kit Unbreakable was pushed hard against for a reason. Even just having one per trial for every Survivor is really strong and makes slugging as a stalling tactic not as viable. Sure they'll be down for a bit but a well timed Unbreakable is really strong and can punish a greedy slug. With it base-kit slugging wouldn't be a thing at all and that's not my goal. I agree that slugging is a needed part of the game and it has it's place in the meta, I just don't want turboslugs and second-to=last slugs to not waste as much time as they do.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3843644#Comment_3843644
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3843665#Comment_3843665
Always annoying to lose that one slug you dropped because their other teammate was trying for a blind slash hook block instead of doing a gen or hiding so of course you go after them for that hook. I, too, want to give Hatch most time and I can't really do that if they crawl off into a corner to bleed out out of spite to "deny" me that hook.
As for Tenacity it could just stay mostly the same, allowing you to be a FAST slug if you're "Desperate". Maybe lower the volume of Grunts of Pain to 50% so it cancels out while Desperate but otherwise keep it the same. Borrowed Time only got changed to increase the base-kit time so Tenacity doesn't need much of a touchup.
The only thing I do not agree with here is opening up chests while slugged. I get the idea behind it but think it'd be a little bit wonky. If the chest is already open then, yeah, swap items but if the chest is still locked you can't wiggle the lock to get it open.
Fair.
I suppose with chests generally being given more appealing perks, and there is a sort of idea of "if you're down to 2 players, start opening chests to try and get a key".
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@SidneysBane1996 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3843607#Comment_3843607
I lowkey support this idea on both sides. As Surv there is nothing worse than when I am downed as one of the last two, then the Killer cannot find me so I bleed out. As Killer, I hate losing slugs too, it's legitimately my nightmare scenario and it's happened way too many times. I'm a pretty nice Killer - I still like to give hatch even with the basekit Mori and I'm just not into slugging for anything more than quick pressure. Sometimes, I will down one of the two at the end then kill the other, but give the first person downed the Hatch as a sort of "sorry about that long slug but I wanted your friend more than you, here's the hatch/gate for your trouble". I actually don't enjoy slugging unless I absolutely need it for pressure, I WANT to spread my hooks due to my build and I hate it if I have to leave someone slugged and then they crawl away and I cannot find them, so we both waste 4 minutes at the end.
I would support this idea for the louder noises and faster bleedout alone, but the basekit Tenacity, being able to use keys, and being able to swap items is nice. Though I do think with this change, Tenacity itself would need something else - perhaps it reveals where exits and the hatch or chests or something like that are if you're Death Hook, Wounded, or last Survivor?
@sockposs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3843644#Comment_3843644
Ugh I absolutely hate losing slugs, I always feel so bad. alternatively there's also people that will hide intentionally while slugged when there's no chance anyone will get them up and after there's any benefit to waste the killers time. im not a big fan of these people, its comparable to intentionally bleeding a survivor out on the killer side.
I must apologise gents, but I am one of those people who slugs away… legit Tenacity is my favourite perk in the game because I just find it hilarious crawling off, looking back and seeing the killer searching for me in the distance 🤣
In fairness, while I will admit to a certain amount of spite, the real reason I do it is because I operate on a principle of "it ain't over 'til it's over". I crawl away, because I'm trying to give myself a chance at hatch... and while it is rare, I have actually managed to escape crawling through gate and and hatch this way on occasion. 😁
However if the killer finds it first, then it's more a case of, damn... oh well... now it's a game of hide and seek. Really it's just a case of keeping myself amused while I bleed out. You're 0.7 while crawling, so if you have crawled away for hatch, it's not like you can really react to wherever killer is and make noise for them to find you anyway. It'll take me just as much time to crawl back into the open, and the killer still needs to step over me to find me, unless the killer actually looks at you, it can be just as hard to be found as it is to stay hidden xD
So to my mind, mightvas well just try to keep hidden, means I still get nervous when the killer comes near, so its still some fun if you treat successfully bleeding out as a new objective 😅
To be fair, if the killer finds me/has me dead to rights, I will not resist and let them put me somewhere cool for the Mori 😁
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I still think once you're fully recovered you should be able to press the rush button to enter "Desperation" and: -
- Crawl 50% faster
- Make 50% louder grunts of pain
- Bleed out 75% faster
I also think a player in the dying state should be able to:
- Swap items on the floor and in chests
- Open chests at a 25% penalty
- Use a key to open a closed hatch
At least this gives something for the slugged player to actually TRY to escape, rather than just sit and wait to die. Also Temacity value.
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/433009/lets-fix-maps-finally
I think your suggestions are great!
Your ideas to make it a more objective focused item are wonderful <3
Also those complaining aggressively about dull totems, bloodstained map is currently in full circulation on those who played frequently back then, they track them baseline and very easily. I always bring one if I'm doing a totem build, it's nothing new.Thanking you!
I too like to play quirky builds, and agree using a map to find totems for a totem build beats the heck out of literally any perk you can take 😁
The blood map is plain GOATed. I have a bunch, and it's silly how good that map is 😅
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I swear its starting to feels like a vast majority of 2vs8 threads seem to be fundamentally against 2vs8 as a concept.
The whole point of each killer in DBD is to have their own respective strengths and weaknesses, and then with 2 killers in 2vs8 the point is to create unique killer teams that amplify each others strengths or cover each other's weaknesses. If we're not doing that, what is the actual point?
It's like listening to people complain Soulsborne games are too challenging... when that's the entire point of the game. There are objective things you can criticise about 2vs8, but if you fundamentally don't want to face the unique challenge of this game mode, you're never gonna enjoy it...
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@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/433009/lets-fix-maps-finally
I don’t think we should get a grey map. It would just be another trashy item, which nobody needs/wants.
Maps should work without charges and they should always show the auras without having to charge them. Then they would be good.
Killer belongings should be a part of all maps and not be split up into parts. I don’t think maps can be too good and there should be a reason to equip it over other items.
Do you always see the aura of 3 generators? The part with at the start the trial confuses me.
8 meter range is too small. What is the point of revealing the gates location in an 8m range? It should be something like 32m.
The hatch aura should be part of the map instead of keys, because maps always show structures and keys show auras of characters. Edit: After reading over your key suggestions, it should be part of both.
The WOO addon for maps is nice.
Thanks for the feedback!
I don’t think we should get a grey map. It would just be another trashy item, which nobody needs/wants.
I'm not convinced a map is trash myself. It offers some very good aura reading, especially for a newer player. The problem for me when I was new was I was unable to get them easily in the blood web. When I did, because they were a "rare" item, I didn't want to waste them, so I didn't really use them. If you can acquire a cheap map easily that you'd not really have to worry about losing it, I would have definitely used them more when I was learning DBD.
It'd also allow new players to try boons reliably rather than having to screw around with perks to let them even try…
Maps should work without charges and they should always show the auras without having to charge them. Then they would be good.
I dunno... I find the channel quite engaging as a quick reminder ability. Having permanent auras makes the map uninteractive and pretty boring... my personal preference is without a perma aura, and an active use ability, especially with the WoO add on. I'd like this a lot as the non dumb version of WoO.
Do you always see the aura of 3 generators? The part with at the start the trial confuses me.
8 meter range is too small. What is the point of revealing the gates location in an 8m range? It should be something like 32m.
Just to check (and I'm genuinely asking), have you tried using the maps? Cause this makes it sound like you haven't? So just to clean up any confusion...
The range for maps is not the range the aura is revealed, it's the range at which the object is scouted. Once scouted it is always revealed whenever you Channel the map, so the aura is global once it is discovered.
This is why the range is 8m, cause once you pass by an object within 8m it is permanently known to you and revealed globally when you channel.
The hatch aura should be part of the map instead of keys, because maps always show structures and keys show auras of characters.
You're not wrong, but the reason I moved this to keys is having it on maps doesn't really serve much purpose. Remember you track the hatch when you are within 8m of it, so with that in mind: -
- It doesn't spawn until you're the last alive, so you can't "pre-scout" it.
- If it is open you can easily hear it within 8m, so the map doesn't help you with finding it.
- If it is closed, who cares? The map can't open it so finding the hatch is useless with a map.
For these reasons I feel like the key with its straight AoE reveal around the survivor coupled with ots ability to open the hatch actually makes the hatch aura fit the key much better.
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@Mooks said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3843103#Comment_3843103
well. Some things are set in any universe (like canon experiences/traits) - things that are just true for every x Charakter in any of the universes. But we have specific entities from a specific universe.
EG our Nurse definitley had a husband she had very intense romantic feelings for so she was not a lesbian. Maybe there is a universe with a lesbian nurse out there in DbDs lore but well.. we don’t know and we definitley dont have her as the base playable character with the given background story.
There is also talk that the Mikaela and Sable we have from the base lore perspective are not from the same universe (hence why Sable wasnt mentioned in Mikaelas original lore and it felt like Julian was her best friend). There is also a Yui in the Entities Realm that tries to kill all other Yuis or something like that.
In the end.. Thats not an argument against queer representation. Which is still important not only just for Media representation but also for the story tellers/devs to tell engaging and interesting stories.I have to admit I dunno what transfem (transfemme?) actually means... it apparently means someone transitioning to femininity? Which is different to being trans? I'm not sure what relation that is to queer... I thought queer was a sexuality... (Though I don't understand that either tbh).
However it doesn't really matter... whether a character is queer, trans, transfem or whatever, As long as said character is an actual character who just happens to be queer, rather than a character who is made specifically for the sole purpose of satisfying a queer checkbox, then that would be awesome, and I'm down.
BHVR are pretty awesome at this kinda stuff, so I have no concerns, but it is getting real tiresome to keep seeing poorly written token characters in media with no discerning traits or flaws, that ends up making them feel like they are a corporate board room created space alien with an illogical and shallow backstory and no humanising qualities whatsoever, that gets shoehorned into stories without rational or believable cause and effect.
There are a few examples of good LGBTQ characters in media such as Ash and Eiji from BananaFish, Nader from Dirty Bomb, Gibraltar for Apex Legends, Vax'ildan and Gilmor, Lady Keema and Allura from the Legend of Vox Machina, Bon Clay from One Piece, all of whom are great characters with actual personalities and the flaws to go with them... but they are so few and far between, because so many people seem to be too cowardly to treat them like actual people, and seem to try and make them perfect, as if pandering to a bunch of 5 year olds.
Long as BHVR do the job right, this would be cool.
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@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3843094#Comment_3843094
So people are still gonna be able to hook suicide easily
It's not impossible, but it is harder with my system.
Fact is you can't make a player play. If someone wants to quit, even if you have your system, they'll sit and do nothing for the full 70s (same as my system) and then stay still under hook until the killer kills them.
If you think about it functionally there is no difference between mine and your version, except stage 2 in mine is slightly faster than the do nothing version in yours. Even if you make it so struggle phase skill checks are not a thing, you still only make it 140s to quit at best instead of 90s with the 2 failed skillchecks.
However what is different in my version is players who are actually playing, don't want to freely attempt to unhook themselves in my version, cause when the killer hooks them a second time they have a tangible penalty that puts pressure on their team.
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@Rudjohns said:
Suicide on hook can go
But self unhook attempts need to stay
I would say keep the 3 free attempts to self unhook but they don't do anything to the hook timerI agree that self unhook attempts should stay, as it feeds into the theme of trying one last desperate attempt to escape, and keeps survivors able to still try to escape rather than giving up the game...
However we can't do that I'm afraid, cause then there is no reason not to attempt to unhook yourself every time you are hooked. Attempts to unhook must carry some sort of penalty.
My suggestion is to have stage 1 always take 70s to reach stage 2 no matter what, but have it where every unhook attempt costs you 33.3% of your stage 2 struggling phase meter.
If you make 3 attempts to escape in stage 1, then the Entity is summoned and pins the survivors sides to stop them wiggling and wont allow any more attempts for the full 70s... then when you reach stage 2, you basically get instant sacrificed.
This still.makes self unhook attempts a sizable trade off, but allows a last ditch attempt, without allowing a player to rapidly throw themselves out of the game…
And this way theres a decent chance they get a killer (and survivor team) who punishes them for trying to SoH.
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@Memesis said:
In respect to finding and tracking generators, maps are completely outclassed and made irrelevant by deja Vu, used frequently by all skill levels. It breaks 3gens and gives repair speed AND is always active, no charges needed.
For hex builds, it's pointless to bring a build with a map to counter totems because hexes are awful and the few good ones have built in tracking for survivors (noed, plaything, that one dracula hex). There's little more deflating than brining a map with anti totem perks just have it wasted by a killer bringing pain res, pop, corrupt, deadlock.
Even with these changes, it is not worth bringing any map in place of a good tool box or medkit for objective value, nor are maps as fun as bringing a flashlight.
I guess the brown map would be nice for finding a spot for a boon? A huge time waste in my opinion.
Hmm... fair enough, though I feel like you're looking at it through the lens of higher level player, which is not the target player for these changes. Auras fundamentally aren't good for high skilled survivors of SWFs... but for low level players a perk like Kindred is God tier.
I would personally think a map is quite good for newer players if you get the effects of: -
- Visionary
- Wake Up auras
- Small Game but better
- Windows of Opportunity
All of that to me seems a pretty good deal off a single item with 1 add-on for a newer player. It also frees up their perk slots to take stronger things like Lithe, Off The Record, Prove Thyself and We'll Make It, instead of having to take the equivalent aura perks.
For hex builds, it's pointless to bring a build with a map to counter totems because hexes are awful and the few good ones have built in tracking for survivors
Higher skilled players tend scoff at Hex's because they consider hex's easy to deal with. However even ones like Huntress Lullaby, Ruin and Third Seal can and do absolutely decimate a newbie team. Just Devour Hope with Undying is absolutely brutal for low level players to handle if they are unfamiliar with totems spawns... which is very common. I don't think you'll find too many new players that'll consider these easy to deal with.
So to be honest, I do think your assessment is looking at it from the wrong perspective.
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@GrimReaperJr1232 said:
Er... I'm a little confused.
Text says "when you're the last survivor standing."
If you're in the dying state, you're not the last survivor standing. Distinction does matter as similar logic is used for things such as Pinhead's box (chain hunt doesn't work if there's 1 survivor standing). So it's "heal if in dying state" bonus is literally impossible to use.
I believe you mean "when you are the last survivor remaining"
But even this is pretty bad since if I hook a slug, it take, best case for you, 10 seconds for them to die; I have a lot of time to find you, pick you up, then hook you before this perk kicks in. Or at least, I can get close and you don't have Endurance or anything protecting you.
I just took the existing perk description and added to it. This perk does still reveal the hatch aura now even if you're slugged for 4k...
So fair point, but that is a current issue with the perks current description 😉
But even this is pretty bad since if I hook a slug, it take, best case for you, 10 seconds for them to die
I'm a Tenacity enjoyer, so less of a concern for me 😅
There is also the scenario, where if your teammate leaves through gate, this perk also activates as well...so that's cool and still quite on brand for Left Behind 😁
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@MissClove said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3842592#Comment_3842592
It is a real issue. Slugging and the finisher Mori has almost caused me to drop the game.
You really experience more slugging for the 4k than you did before? Cause for me, slugging for the 4k has been the same as it always has. Only difference is I get a mori instead of being thrown on hook, which I personally prefer cause it's cooler.
But regardless of that, any reason not to have this buff on Left Behind?
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@Zuiphrode said:
This is a terrible idea in every way, but the totem part is especially egregious considering how often they spawn literally next to generators and hooks.
Thanks for the insightful and informative feedback!
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@Birken05 said:
Oh yes.. let's continue to fix the game's core issues by using perks.
Who says slugging for the 4k is an issue? It's perfectly sensible to slug for the 4k with how hatch works, and is the lesser of 2 evils compared to removing hatch and having survivors quit the moment they go 3 hooks down with 5 gens to go. Hatch must exist for survivors to still attempt to play.
The killer is not an NPC, they have a human brain, and there is no way to stop slugging for the 4k without shackling the killer more and more, so it can't really be prevented no matter what you try and introduce. Basekit Unbreakable will never be a thing.
So even if slugging for the 4k is addressed somehow to become less common, this would still be a nice perk change, due to the nature and purpose of the perks current use case.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
Why aren't they used?
Keys a number of problems that makes them unappealing to the newer/soloQ players who would actually benefit from them.
- They are only available as green or higher items making them hard to acquire.
- They are inconsistent in their behaviour between rarities, making them awkward to use.
- They are add-on and perk dependent, making them fiddly.
The aim of the rework is to make keys more accessible and generally more useful for newer/soloQ players across the board, and give keys a clear purpose.
none of these reasons are why it is not used. For soloq, a med-kit is infinitely stronger because unlock self-healing action saves so much time in soloq that a key is pathetic value in comparison. For swf, an instant-heal from red syringe is infinity more powerful for chase extension than a key. Even for soloq, an instant heal inside chase for a good looper extends chases by a lot. med-kit outshines key in chase.
Of course a medkit does better, and a syringe is far superior if you're good enough to use it, but you missed the entire point... we're make keys something more accessible for new payers who cannot loop with that level of efficiency to get value off a red syringe. It is also more importantly for players who DO NOT HAVE surplus' of powerful items and add-ons.
As we've discussed before, auras are not that good if you're a highly experienced player, but they are very useful for newer players.
You even pointed out about hatch in the maps thread... and this version of keys is much more solo friendly, because the key both helps find the hatch AND can unlock it.
The goal here isn't to make maps and keys top of the meta, they will NEVER beat medkits and toolboxes no matter how good you make them, because auras are fundamentally less valuable... but that isn't what we're trying to do, we're trying to make them better for newer and solo players, which this iteration does.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
fixing maps makes killer totem builds more irrelevant than what they already are. you'd need to bring old undying back where hex takes 5 times to die. even than, map that detect totems around the map will decimate any hex build within 30 seconds of the match. maybe if a block effect is put where hex totems have protecting blocking effect for 30 seconds every time a hex gets cleansed.
toning down radius of maps makes detective hutch to 4 meters makes detective hutch stronger without changing anything related to it nuking hexes.
I think sole purpose of maps is to find hatch in late game because hatch was super strong before since you could finish 4/5 gens, have one person suicide and then just spam map to find hatch super quick. a key had no counter-play so everyone would instant jump through hatch in the killer face. now they're kinda bad because hatch is bad.
fixing maps makes killer totem builds more irrelevant than what they already are.
I agree that hex totems are a concern, and I've tried to add mechanics to address that issue.
It's already the case that maps are too good vs. Hexes, but it's not really a noticable issue cause no one uses maps. I dont think either of us would disagree that just because hexes exists and are not great, it doesn't make it a good idea to keep maps so they suck and no one uses them...
To address that issue, I have instead made all maps function the same at base in regards to what they track, they can track dull totems, but not hex totems at base. Map auras do not reveal hex totems unless: -
- You have the hex totem add-on (Human Hair Cordage)
- The range of the map is reduced to 50% specifically for hex totems.
In this way, the maximum range you can get to track a hex totem in this arrangement is 10m if you take the odd stamp, and the beauty of this is this can be reduced further of its a problem. Maybe 40%, 30%, 25%, etc, etc.
I think sole purpose of maps is to find hatch in late game because hatch was super strong before since you could finish 4/5 gens, have one person suicide and then just spam map to find hatch super quick.
This is why I feel it should have a new purpose, since they are good for helping new players find their way around.
Maps are actually good for new and soloQ players, and is one of the reasons why I added windows and pallets as an optional aura add-on.
This version would be a much healthier version of WoO that actually helps a player learn the game instead of having the auto pilot mode. Reduces WoO in the meta, since the user has another option to the same ability.
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@KA149108 said:
I like it but being as Adrenaline was nerfed and other perks I don't think this will happen tbh :/
I dunno, Adrenaline was nerfed not to work while hooked and (for some reason) to make it's dash 3 seconds instead of 5 seconds...
The primary rwason this perk was nerfed was the entire Survivor team could take it and once unhooked, the killer has almost no counter other than Terminus. It basically becomes a free escape for the unhooked survivor... though that said I do think it is overnerfed.
Left Behind in this configuration is far less controversial, since it would literally only work when you're the last one left AND the killer has slugged you. It's still not free, cause unless your teammate managed to get miles away, there is still a decent chance the killer catches you.
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I actually disagree, I've had a blast on both sides.
Survivor: -
- Managed to make some clutch saves.
- Had loads of fun using the new abilities for pretty much all classes, that have all felt strong and useful.
- Have found that a lot of the more painful elements of playing survivor, such as being tunneled, slugged and 3-genned have all been significantly less of an issue than 1vs4 and the original 2vs8.
Killer: -
- Killer power classes have been fun to play around, and requires you to actually think about what your teammate is playing. Fearmonger Trapper is my favourite thus far.
- Expansion of killers has made the above point even more fun, and its great to see the lethality of Billy back in 2vs8. He felt very underwhelming in the original version.
- Making use of unique killer tricks feels more rewarding in this mode than normal, cause of the natural chaos of this mode. Its usually not too hard to find a weak link player.
- You don't have to deal with survivors stacking flashlights or BNP Commodius toolboxes, trying to bait you with DS, OTR or DH constantly, and everyone doesn't have WoO and Lithe and constantly holds W to Narnia without you at least being able to predict it off seeing the Chaser class.
However that's the joy of
buttsopinions… everyone has got one. -
Letting players concede early would help reduce frustration and improve overall enjoyment of the game.
I'm not convinced of this myself.
It will make games where you are losing less frustrating, but it will also make games you are winning more frustrating. You only need to look at games with a surrender option already implemented and you often see players have to "feed" their opponents to get them to play the game out. We've all seen and even had those games where a game seems hopeless, and then one good chase suddenly swings the game back the other way. This dies if the surrender option is the common affair.
I guarantee the average experience will be: -
- Someone on Survivor will constantly ask to surrender every time it's off cooldown cause they don't like the killer, their perks etc. They won't be AFK, but will otherwise dither and not really bother to play properly in the hope their team quits.
- The same problem again every time the killer does remotely well off the start of the trial.
- Every time the survivors are doing well, the killer will immediately concede and they'll never get to enjoy their win.
- Even in a close game, if the Survivors manage to squeek out an escape, the killer will quit and deny challenges/achievements.
The one thing that saves this suggestion is:
Penalize Players for Frequent Surrenders:
Survivors who leave a match through Surrender could suffer a stacking debuff that reduces Bloodpoint and Experience rewards to discourage surrendering frequently. For example, each surrender adds a stack that reduces reward yield in their next match by 33%. Playing two matches to completion would remove a stack.This is the only thing that would make this suggestion work, but I guarantee you if this were implemented we will be inundated with forum threads saying "the penalty shouldn't exist", and justify its removal by citing SoH.
I am fundamentally against any mechanism that encourages players to quit. DBD needs 5 players to function, and is not an especially long game. We have enough issues with players quitting now without making it an accepted part of the game.
The only time I would allow a concede is: -
- If all players are slugged (though I'd prefer a solution to allow survivors more actions when they are slugged at the expense of bleeding out faster personally)
- If the match has gone on for longer than 15 minutes for the purposes of anything that slips through the cracks with regards to holding games hostage.
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@SidneysBane1996 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3841675#Comment_3841675
The thing is, if you decide to make yourself a nuisance, the Killers may decide "screw the game, #### that Surv in particular" and you will STILL be slugged out, tunnelled out, and have a bad experience.
How do I know this?
Tried it. Had a bad experience. Killers told me they outright didn't care, they just hated me for being THIS SWEATY in the casual mode.
Sure, but thats the game isn't it?
It's a team game playing for survivor. Your job as survivor is cost the killer as much time as you possibly can. If you manage to waste 90-120s of the killers time a game, that's a good innings isn't it?
If your team doesn't use it, then it counts for naught, which is usually my complaint playing survivor. I'm very rarely annoyed at killers, cause their goal is to kill me, I must avoid getting downed/hooked at all costs, or if I can't, then waste as much time as I possibly can for my team to use... if they don't use it that's on them, but you have to assume the killer is going to do everything in their power to win, so you in turn must make it as hard for them as you can.
I do feel like a lot of survivors in this game play with a "carry" mindset from League of Legends, aka the protagonist/main character. Them dying upsets them, they wanna go 12 - 0 and nuke the opposition, and anything short of that, they get upset, even if they are actually on the winning team.
I was always a support minded player. I'm happy to go 1-19 if it means my team can win, I have no issue throwing myself face first into a wall of ultimates and dying to grab their carry into the team if it means the other players in my team pull off the victory. I regularly played with a style of making it annoying and costly for players to deal with me, whether I personally win or lose doesn't matter, it's about whether my team wins or loses.
I carry the same attitude into DBD, where I always ensure I put the killer in a difficult choice. I may not be technically skilled, but I am good at being a pest, and to my mind, making a killer slug me, or tunnel me, and then costing them a lot for doing it is a victory to my mind. Even if I die, I don't care if the killer threw the rest of the game doing it... what annoys me is when survivors make all my efforts for naught... but it's almost never the result of what the killers do.
Punishing killers and wasting time is really easy to do in 2vs8... so I don't get the complaint.
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Agreed.
I would really like it even if No Mither was just buffed so that you start the trial healthy, but once you are injured you are permanently broken.- It removes the giant target on your back from the start of the game, and is partially hidden from the killer since perks like Moment of Glory exist.
- It continues to make sense for the perks identity, it doesn't betray the fundamental idea of the perk.
- As a David perk, it I would make it much more synergistic with Dead Hard, since Dead Hard would come alive after you've been hooked.
- It gives it a number of sneaky perk options/synergies, such as:
- Removing most of the downsides of Invocation:Weaving Spiders without easily giving away that you have No Mither.
- You could seriously consider a "tunnel intervention" build where you don't draw the killers aggro immediately, but you start body blocking once the killer starts trying to tunnel, but with No Mither to bait/body block for free.
- You could even do something crazy like have a 1 time For The People heal with your No Mither masked.
It wouldn't be meta, but it would be something you could realistically build and work with.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3841841#Comment_3841841
I don't think either of these are significant issues, because like any license/collaboration it can just be chalked up to the Entity reaching through time to pluck a version of that character from a different timeline/universe.
Anyone who hasn't played FS isn't going to presume that the existence of any characters in DBD has any bearing on what is canon in FS.
And for anyone who has played FS… well you'd know that there are potentially unlimited variations to the timeline to draw from. Every ending is potentially canon, so it really doesn't matter who is included.
Actually a solid shout… I didn't think of it that way xD
More spoilers:
I suppose I was thinking of it with a "History of the Entity in our world" kinda deal… but when you consider this just one of many realities the Entity dives into, then that doesn't really hold true and any issues melt away.
So, with that in mind, I stand corrected xD
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The only issue I can imagine: (Plot Spoilers do not read if haven't played Casting of Frank Stone)
If any of the cast makes it to the DBD game, there are two issues.
1 - It implies there is a canon ending for TCoFS, and I think the main point is that your actions in the story allows you to create your own unique horror experience.
2 - It kinda gives away the ending of the game, as building up to sending the surviving cast into the trials is the climax of the game... and the main draw of the game is discovering the story.
For anyone who hasn't played the Casting of Frank Stone, it's a very cool game with an interesting story and a creepy atmosphere.
It's not particularly hard, it's more about the story, andnits a create your own horror experience type deal. How much mileage you'll get is questionable, but it is very cool for any DBD or horror fan.
If you're unsure maybe wait for a Sale, but it is good. Would recommend.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3841670#Comment_3841670
In our defense, we've always disliked Billy so nothin new here.
Fair enough, and to be fair, you've said a number of times you're trying to account for your bias, and acknowledged historically Billy has been a very popular killer... and really Im kinda arguing with my own bias, cause I obviously like Billy 😅🤘
This one is confusing us. So heres a scene: Injured survivor is working on a gen. Billy saws from who knows where to try and hit said survivor. He does not hit with the saw but stops just abit from where said survivor was and goes a runs seconds to simply boop the survivor down should there be little to work with. Now change the survivor to healthy. Now Billy has to land the saw or is required to boop the survivor a second time before said survivor goes down. Hence our line of thought here that being injured is still a detriment as much if not more.
Regarding this issue, I do understand the scenario you describe, but in this hypothetical there is an assumption of when the survivor attempts to leave the gen, and we both can only really compare our anecdotal experience.
Blight is a killer I've traditionally disliked, and it was one tip from one streamer that changed my opinion on Blight completely, and that was, you need to ensure that Blight doesn't get a hit off his initial rush to a gen. This means you need to ensure you're ready to move to safety immediately for if Blight heads your way. This one change to my playstyle, and now I really enjoy playing vs. Blight.
It's the same thing with Billy. Billy can't turn quickly or redirect once he's charging; you can predict where he will come from off a hook, and he can't adjust to cut you off (unlike Blight). This means you should often be able to make good headway to safety as long as you pay attention.
Maybe I'm better at this skill than the average survivor cause I don't run WoO or Exhaustion perks, so for me to survive I have to account for issues reaching safety more often against most killers, so Billy is just an extension of this playstyle. I've rarely had issues with Billy m1ing me after a whiff that I can't also explain as a sub-optimal movement or a poor prediction on my part...
However of course this is all anecdotal and subjective... so I think we've probably explored all objective arguments we can make...
If Hillbilly does need to be nerfed because it's too easy for him to m1 off a saw, I feel adding a cooldown would be the wrong way to nerf him. I'd hit his miss movement speed and cooldown timings... but I personally think this is all fine at base, it's only really his Overdrive that I can really buy as something that pushes him over the top.
Maybe with his Overdrive, I'd consider giving him the longer duration on it back, but have the recoveries for it be worse than those at base. Either that, or I'd also consider keeping it a short duration with those penalties, but making it activatable off his secondary, so he can at least choose when to use it.
That would be my direction looking at Billy... but... I have a lot of fun vs. Billy, so I'm not really looking to nerf him.
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I've beaten killers who try to slug everyone quite comfortably.
Ultimately you still need to catch survivors to down them, and if they're going down fast in chase, the you'd be just as hard winning if you hooked. The weak players would get knocked out fast and once you have a couple of survivors dead 2vs8 starts to really turn the killers direction. Survivors putting up resistance however will cramp your ability to slug everyone pretty hard.
If you are coming at me with both killer's, your pressure sucks, and I'm running to comp corner, and I'm still gonna make it hurt to slug. We eventually started to outpace their slugging and it's always quite the amusing moment they realised it wasn't gonna work and started trying to hook people too little too late.
So sure you can go ahead and slug, it's not a bad strategy, took me and my fellow soloQ survivors a few minutes to adjust. Of course survivors with a spine is becoming rarer and rarer in this modern "I quit because boo hoo killer is a threat" attitude they have now, so that may help your slug strategy...
However it ain't a free win, and all I can say is:
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@LeFennecFox said:
I cannot stand new billy whatsoever even a mediocre billy turns any loop into a death trap if you're not feeding him pallets. His power has near 0 cooldown, some of the best mobility, amazing pallet break, and insanely strong zoning. Atp if you're a competent billy bamboozle isn't even needed you can just curve the majority of tiles with his new speed/initial turnrate.
Just to clarify one thing, his turn rate and speed was something Billy has always been able to do, but it required setting controller sensitivity to 70-100%, since that also scaled his Q/E and mouse turn rate.
Most classic Billy mains played with controller sensitivity set to 100% to have the most potential at loops, but it obviously was the most difficult to control, but this was well known in Billy community. The changes that BHVR made standardised Billy so that his turn rate was the same for everyone, rather than it being a secret setting for PC players only.
Billy has functioned the same way for years, and often cited as one of the most fun killers in the game since he was released. The only thing that makes him stronger now is his potential is higher in the hands of a really skilled Billy when using Overdrive... but most BIllys I see can't use Overdrive too well…
So tbh, I'm not really sure why everyone seems to hate Billy all of sudden... outside of Overdrive he's basically the same as he always was with some basekit add-ons... to be fair he got a LOT of numbers buffs in 7.5.0, but a lot of them have been slashed again by 8.3.0...
So I'm not too sure why Billy is suddenly so controversial...
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3841166#Comment_3841166
We'd argue that you can bait, predict and juke the others listed (sans bubba). If you do manage to dodge the likes of Chucky, Blight, and Nurse enough the survivors are rewarded via a break where they can't immediately go again or are nerfed if they do. Meanwhile Billy can miss and go again and again and many of the Billys we have seen miss about often as the others (unless its a particularly bad Billy). Bar Nurse each of those killers also needs to play around the terrain, though admittedly they have a far easier time with the closest being Oni.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3841456#Comment_3841456
Their issue seems to be that Billy can miss, recover fast, then just go for an m1 quickly afterwards, but I don't believe this is a problem, since this is often the case with Blight and Chucky as well, and their chance of missing their ability in the first place is way lower than Billy's is, so they have even less reason to often be able to land a hit.
Thats not entirely correct. Our words that were quoted are in response to "injuries don't matter to Billy". An injured survivor is just as if not more in danger because he can simply run up to you, stop, and m1 down. Like a wraith Drac Bat or spirit with out the downsides of their powers (having to uncloak and not being able to see for the later 2). It is similar to the others but since Billy is also an insta down killer healing is not very effective either but it does "force" him to try and saw instead of m1. As below:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3841419#Comment_3841419
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3841488#Comment_3841488
You get our point (granted we're having a hard time trying to understand the example in the 2nd paragraph of the first quote).
Thats not entirely correct. Our words that were quoted are in response to "injuries don't matter to Billy". An injured survivor is just as if not more in danger because he can simply run up to you, stop, and m1 down.
I believe I addressed this point though, but to try again... the assertion is that Billy can reliably just stop next to a survivor and get a free m1? This I don't believe is true, and is the crux of this injured argument.
We seem to accept his chainsaw is hard to land, so it being an instantdown is justified because its hard to hit. No one has countered or challenged me on this so I assume we all agree.
The contention seems to be that once a survivor is injured Billy can go for chainsaw hits, and it he misses, he just takes an m1… well Billy if he stops in air, he has a 2.7s recovery. With both add-ons this can become 2.295s at best. If he hits terrain it's 2.5s recovery at base and with bothl add-ons can come down to 1.88s.
Demogorgon recovers in 2.25s on a missed shred and can take this down to 2.0025s with his one add-on for it. Demo can spam just as much to get next to survivors as Billy can, with no difference if he bumps terrain or not, and he recovers a whole 0.5s base and 0.2925 at best faster than Billy does on a miss.
I am aware Demo can't turn around terrain, but if whiffing for gap close was really the way to score hits reliably, this is how Demo would always play to get hits, lunge near to any tile hit or miss, then follow up with an m1... Now it is possible to get hits this way, but if it was as free as you guys describe, Demo wouldn't be so low on the killer list as he is… but that's not how it works in practise.
This recovery into an m1 is effectively where we are disagreeing, because if Billy can easily score a hit off a whiff with an m1, then yes, he is broken... but in my experience he doesn't often get that m1… and unlike Chucky, Blight, Spirit, Nurse, who can get a hit with their power quite easily to allow they easy downs when tunneling an injured survivor, Billy either has to land his saw, or get that m1.
If my contention is correct that Billy can't reliably recover off a saw whiff into an m1, Billy can't do what these other killer can do (the tap and chase down hit). This means Billy using his saw is mostly the same threat, whether you're injured or not... and if he isn't using his saw, he is an m1 killer.
If I'm still not grasping the concept, I apologise, but that's the best I can understand what we're taking about.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3841450#Comment_3841450
I get that but I honestly do not see why killers that didn't slug for the 4k before would do so now. Are people really that desperate for the animation?
I can't say I have noticed an increase in slugging as a survivor either (although to be fair, I haven't played a whole lot lately). It just feels like everyone that used to slug still does so and the mori is wrongly considered an explanation as to why it happens.
@UndeddJester recently suggested changing the mori to only be available on the 3rd survivor, if the 4th is still up to disincentivise slugging. If people actually care that much about the mori, it would definitely help and if they don't, it won't do any harm.
Just to absolve myself and not take all credit, Skillfulstone did have the same idea before me, but I didn't see it, and I think it got lost in the PTB forums I think xD
Though I am in agreement, I haven't really seen a huge uptick in slugging for the 4k... in regards to the fact that being slugged for the 4k was the status quo for me anyway...😅
I almost never got given hatch, and often never got to play the hatch or door gamble... it's why I rarely ran Sole Survivor, cause it very rarely did anything xD
However I do think the mori does highlight it more cause killer soften stand over you waiting for the survivor to die.... so I think people get upset by it more.... so I think that tweak would be great 😁
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Cause she took Pyramid Heads cake when his booty was nerfed.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3841166#Comment_3841166
i think your missing @Rulebreaker point. his argument is that billy's lower performance ball is greater than his higher performance ball even when not accounting reliability.
in other words, avoiding a billy chainsaw out in the open for him landing a hit is higher reward for billy to succeed than all mentioned killers. it is little bit like argument if Oni's Katana as basic m1 was instant down and his power to move super fast was a bonus power-up. He'd be better than 80% of m1 killers as his weak form, not accounting his real ability.
that's kinda where billy is. he's better than 80% of the killers just by the fact that he has base-kit instant down that doesn't require any setup while being reliable hit if the player is good. His curving and his ability to play global & hit run with pallets is probably what makes him ascend as a killer into higher tier of killer. to me, it just looks a classic Killer camp hooks with instant down argument. Mobility allows you to return to hook faster hence they think that is a problem. other killer have to earn the ability to instant down and none of them except for Oni have mobility+instant down but Oni's drawback of limit duration+earning power can make camping a sub optimal choice.
I'm trying to pick up what you're trying to say, but I'm struggling. It sounds like you're arguing against the fundamental design of Billy as an instadown killer with map mobility. If I take your Oni analogy, we're saying Billy has high mobility at all times, and then just m1s a survivor with an instadown?
That's not how Billy works, and we have over 7 years of gameplay to pull from to see that map mobility with a spammabale instadown doesnt make Billy OP... when he still had overheat, it was such a slow penalty to bulld up, it was mostly non existent and no one cared about it, and Billy was consider B tier tops.
The fact is, landing a hit with Hillbilly's chainsaw is not easy against survivors who know what they are doing, it's not the same thing as landing an m1 as you describe with your Oni example. As I've said already, his chainsaw is highly telegraphed, easy to misaim, and cannot be corrected once his direction is locked in, nor can he flick at the end of his rush, all of which makes him quite predictable and easy to dodge...
As Xernoton points out, his Overdrive gives him the boost he needs to score a number of hits he otherwise simply can't, and without Overdrive, he is simply old Billy; too difficult to land hits with reliably to be in the top flight of killers. It's his overdrive that pushed him up there and why he needed nerfs.
What you seem to not be considering is yes, Billy is dangerous with his instantdown... but once you are injured, if Billy is chasing you with his chainsaw, there is effectively no difference, and if he's not using his chainsaw, he's an m1 killer. If he M1s you, if he's trying to use teh chainsaw, the m1 hasn't really changed anything about the dynamic of the current chase. He still needs to hit you with his hard to hit chainsaw in order to down you, so his m1 hasn't really helped him much.
Rulebreakers closing assessment highlights their point:
We disagree with the injury thoughts due to Billy being able to stop nearby to simply whack a survivor down, but we see a point in that it needs to be a threat. We're unsure if having, say bubbas CD, would immediately kill his threat though.
Their issue seems to be that Billy can miss, recover fast, then just go for an m1 quickly afterwards, but I don't believe this is a problem, since this is often the case with Blight and Chucky as well, and their chance of missing their ability in the first place is way lower than Billy's is, so they have even less reason to often be able to land a hit.
This isn't a problem to my mind because Billy doesn't have the ability to win a hit and then follow up with his power to get a relatively quickand easy down like Chucky, Blight, Spirit, Dracula, etc... Billy has to hit his chainsaw for a fast down, and getting an m1 doesn't help him at all with that.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3840913#Comment_3840913
As we stated to toystory3Monkey, he can stop very easily to course correct to simply try as many times as he wants (not always practical but it doesn't stop many). His only real worries are "am I burning to much time" and "don't crash".
For example: with nurse she also must predict survivors, however if she misses she has a fatigue and has to wait for her blinks to recharge. Billy can simply wind up, go, and should he miss he can simply stop a little away and try again from the get go. And unlike nurse, his will put you on the dirt on the first successful prediction.
We already compared Oni so:
Chucky and blight are limited by CDs and are both not insta downs.
...woops already done nurse…moving on…
Bubba doesn't have Billy's mobility while having similar weaknesses as detailed in the op.
toystory3Monkey has also went with this reasoning and we are considering how much weight it holds towards Billy.
We think your giving Billy to much credit but that might be our bias showing.
We disagree with the injury thoughts due to Billy being able to stop nearby to simply whack a survivor down, but we see a point in that it needs to be a threat. We're unsure if having, say bubbas CD, would immediately kill his threat though.
All fair, but the difference in all cases is that survivors can bait, predict and juke Billy, even out in the open... but for the other examples, in the same scenarios where they can juke Billy, they can't juke the other killers. Survivors need supporting structures to avoid taking hits.
Billy can only turn around terrain at the start of his dash, he only has specific points in the loop cycle he can actually go for hits, and it is highly telegraphed to the survivor. This is unlike Blight, Nurse and Chucky who can still turn/redirect their hit after their initial rush. Their effectively lethality therefore exists for the entire duration of their ability, rather than Billy where if he is not on the correct line after 0.75s, he misses.
This is the reason Chucky and Blight can't instant down and have a cooldown, because they can effectively turn around terrain with far more control than Billy, and at the end of their dashes they can turn on the spot and still land a hit. Nurse is similarly far superior than Billy, cause while she needs to predict, she has full control of her lunge in any direction, and can get a second blink to correct her prediction and still land a hit.
Billy has his 2.7s recovery and then has to charge up his chainsaw again form each attempt, which is often enough time to vault a window, throw a pallet or make it around terrain where Billy has to again steer around terrain to land a hit.
The simple reason why Billy gets to spam his ability is he can fire off 5 attempts and often miss 4 of them, and this isn't strange for Billy.
All the other cases, like Double Blink Nurse, Chucky S&D, Blight Dash, Oni slam, they often hit their ability nearly every time.
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The main trade off for Billy compared to other similar killers is once he has committed, he cannot correct. Hillbillys power works because he effectively loses control after his initial aim.
His power is spammable yes, but a step to the slide or a slight misaim or incorrect prediction on his part, and he is whiffing with no way to correct it... and this inability to correct it means Billy is forced to predict since it's impossible for him to react. This ensures misses happens often,and is what makes Billy so engaging for survivor.
Compare this to: -
- Oni who can flick his aim at the end of his dash to land a hit.
- Blight and Chucky who both can turn considerably at the end of their dashes.
- Nurse who can literally hit in a 180 on the end of her blink.
- Bubba who can easily change direction and create a near unavoidable dead zone in front of him off any prediction.
- Myers and Ghost Face have considerably different gameplay loops, are more loopable than Billy, but also FAR simpler to play and easier to capitalise on predictions and survivor errors, simply taking an m1 for an instant down.
The potential for Billy is really high if you play perfectly with no input mistakes and perfect prediction, but the 2 feed into each other. An incorrect prediction can easily cause you to mind game yourself and make what would have been a hit a miss, even if you input flawlessly. Similarly a perfect prediction can still regularly miss if the input is also not correct.
If he can't spam it, say by adding a cooldown, the threat of his power stops working, because he is simply too hard to hit with. Injuries are less valuable on Billy, as an inured survivor basically fights Billy as a regular m1 killer, or at no difference to how he fights with his saw.
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@iceeinchrg said:
To all the killers crying on various forums:
Survivor is not fun, at all. Same problems as normal games. People intentionally trolling, dropping pallets when no one is around, intentionally failing skill checks (like every time I'm with that person on a gen or heal, they fail). Points mainly come from altruism, actually doing objectives is mediocre points, chases don't last long against the average killer thanks to their buffs or the second killer, and no points for survival if you don't get out. So most of us are just playing to unhook and heal each other and then maybe escape second. Any point modifier below 250% is not worth playing, and I wouldn't even be doing 250% if I didnt need to prestige characters.
Every killer has a viagra-fueled hardon, and I suspect it's because you WILLING subject yourself to the queue times. I've met one decent killer who saw a Jill intentional grief me by showing him I was in a locker at our gen, so he just slugged me and let me recover, TWICE! I got lucky enough to hatch that match thanks to him.
Yes, you may see gens go quickly in some of your games, but my sample size is probably much bigger than yours due to my amount of free time, and that is not the norm. If both killers are average, its probably a killer win. Even one mediocre killer generally doesn't tank the team. The only decisive wins I've seen have been two bad killers who probably aren't coordinating, didn't pay attention to the info they got (2 survivors on a gen and you get an aura, how can you miss that?) or use killers theyre not good with (nurse and blight, looking at you guys), and even then they still get +25k points. Also, any action or specialization that reveals survivors is so strong. The number of times I've been absolutely screwed by the revealed status when trying to hide while cornered is astronomical.
And I write all this knowing full well I'm only an average survivor, maybe a little above average. I cannot chase long because I have not and will never be able to learn all these maps, so when even I can juke and loop a killer multiple times, then I know that killer has a skill issue, no offense. But even in this game mode, those killers still have a heavy advantage.
I dunno what to tell you man… it sounds like you don't like DBD period.
In 2vs8 Killers can't effectively slug, can't effectively proxy camp, can't really hold a 6 gen, have a much harder time tunneling, can't stack gen regression or combat gen rush effectively, have to constantly deal with god pallets that can be respawned, have to constantly deal with body blocking and swarms for saves…
You've eluded to it in your own post… Survivors who don't play the objective will lose the game for the team… but if that is your reasoning for saying "killer is easy", I'm sorry, thats not a good argument… any game where one side consistently doesn't play their objective is going to lose.
I'm not a particularly amazing looper either, but I have had games where I've been chased for 30-40s by both killers going as far as to take them to a comp corner… and still I do not see any repair rings on generators across all 7 of my teammates… There is no excuse for that, but just cause my team is off picking their nose instead of trying to advance the survivor objective, that is not evidence the game is killer sided…
The fact is playing Survivor means playing as a team. If your team is crap, its gonna lose, that's the same for every game ever made… but as well as getting bad teams, I've also got plenty of good teams, that have straight up embaressed the killers… and tbh… the latter has been jsut as, if not more common for me… so I can only conclude that you're burnt out and hyper senstitive for when you get a bad player, and ignore the effects of good players on your team….
… and if that's not the case you're simply the most unlucky sod who plays this game…
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1 - Survivors are incredibly gimped in their ability to interact with killers (no good perks/no items at start)
This is not true. The survivors has several meta level bulds provided by their classes, or activatable abilities that are very strong in power.
- Sprint Burst with a 20s cooldown for you and everyone around you, WoO, an activatable Q&Q + Cut loose, and then Self Care and Botany once hooked one time.
- Deja Vu and Visionary plus Better Together, with a activatable 8s repair speed boost with no pre-condition, and 3% extra progress on great skillchecks for all players with you.
- Empathy, permanent We'll Make It applied in an AoE with activatable 50% instant heal, that also then gives you Babysitter whenever injured
- Permanent Blood Amber for your entire team, with Urban Evasion and Iron Will, with Any Means Necessary and the ability to rebuild any God pallet your wish.
Every single build here is stronger than anything you could ever take in 1vs4.
2 - Killers move way too fast, long chases can only happen with incompetent killers
This is false, and has as much substance as saying "short chases can only happen with incompetent survivors". Killers move the same speed they normally do, and only have additional boosts on top of what their power would usually provide them only buffed yo be slightly better than what their add-ons normally provide them.
3 - Killers don't need to hook survivors (its incredibly difficult to get flashlight saves)
False, the killers cannot win without hooking because survivors all have the ability to pick themselves up using their power if slugged.
Flashlight saves and pallet saves are the same difficulty as they are in ten normal.game mode, nothing specific about 2vs8.
A survivor's main means of surviving is through their item/perk build, but they don't have access to that in this game mode.
This is even more true of killer, since the killer only gets 4 perks vs. Survivors 16, the killer perks are more important to the killers success than the survivors. However it's still a moot point because the classes provided yonairvibor are stringer than any build you could make in 1vs4.
I feel too much is taken away from the survivors in this mode.
I feel that doing away with the 4 survivor and killer classes would be the move. I think that giving all survivors their respective 3 assigned perks with one open slot for whatever they want would help balance the game type. The killers should also get their 3 perks with one open slot. There should be 10 gens. The math should math.
I feel like this is even worse for limiting your choices as Survivor. You have even less control over the playstyle you want, tied to whatever survibor perks you can muster, and are forced to play a specific character if you want a certain part combo, with 2 other perks that probably don't compliment what you're trying to do.
Anyone with any basic understanding of DBD can do perfectly fine with Survivor in 2vs8, and tbh, is far easier to win as survivor in 2vs8 than it is in 1vs4.
You're entitled to your opinion, bur your experience is certainly not shared by everyone.
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@Mooks said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3840165#Comment_3840165
… or it will just break 🫠
But yeah it would be interesting. Still hope they will adjust Dredges nightfall to be better accessible and not as obnoxious with the sounds and white highlights.And we need Freddy+Jason on Coldwind Farm to happen at some point!
Freddy and Jason better spend the whole match fighting.
Actually have a special set of interactions where they have the ability to stagger each other, throw pallets, slam into lockers, all of which collateral damage any survivors caught in the cross fire.
Was see Trapper and Pig one day get their super duo trap Jutsu going.
I also one day wanna see a Tinkerer team 🧡🐽🧡
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@Marc_123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3840173#Comment_3840173
Maybe try to think of players who aren´t as good as you.
I also met some nasty combos of very fast killers who had great double tapping and cage rushing - that is not very fun.
Well, I'm always happy to discuss players experiences with DBD, but look again back at the OP... Is there anything here constructive that I can even remotely consider a reasonable complaint or objective argument?
I have responded slightly dismissively, since this thread is saying nothing of substance to respond to, so I have simply pointed out I've not had the same experience, and am asking what the OP is talking about.
To answer the points in the OP: -
- This game mode doesn't suck, it's been a lot of fun in every game I've played, win or lose, and is one of the most popular game modes BHVR has ever made to the point the regular queue struggles to find players. So by every metric I can see, this statement is false.
- People like it cause it's chaotic and intense, with a lot of hilarious moments. I laughed my head off when I got confused by the TRs and got tomahawked round a corner by Huntress only to get Clotheslined from hell by Blight. Maybe don't take it so seriously and you'll have more fun.
- It's far from miserable for survivor. The killers can't easily tunnel you, can't slug you, can't run mega slowdown, and can't even keep track of survivors in any meaningful way. All the stuff survivors complain about regularly aren't a thing.
- No redemption for this mode? It is massively improved over the first iteration, with meaningful counterplay for survivors in the form of saves. The bonuses are nowhere near the permanent 400% survivor was in the first iteration. The survivor powers are all quite strong and fun to use. The sprint burst and woo is surprisingly not the most popular perk, and I often see a healthy mix in every lobby I've been in. My favourite is the scout with the ability to rebuild pallets.
So as far as I can tell, every single statement of the OP is counterable with factual evidence.
Reading your own critique, yours is better cause it actually makes a point, but I would argue if the killers are going round as a duo, they are not spreading pressure, and with the rapid speed survivors can complete gens, especially with the Guide class, them targetting you with both of them is still a net gain for the team more often than not.
So my original statement stands, what is ten OP talking about?
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I've played like 20 games and escaped like 15 of them... what exactly are you talking about?
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@[Deleted User] said:
Popping back in after a few more hours tonight. I don't think I've run into a single killer that I would normally get in my MMR bracket in 1v4. It's reminding me why SBMM exists. Not necessarily saying it should exist in 2v8, but I get why it's needed in 1v4.
The results are what they are, but I'd caution against tweaking the numbers too much. I'm not convinced there's an actual balance issue in this mode. I think the matchmaker is reaaaaally struggling with the queue imbalance.
Pretty good shout to be fair...
I managed to get a game as killer with Trapper and I was paired with a cracked Blight who absolutely minced. Admittedly I was running Fearmonger, so I was just locking down 1 half of the map as best as I could, and having any traps/injuries I land making him even more of a beast, but that guy was a man on a mission...
On Survivor I've been kinda baffled by how well I've been doing at looping... like my looping isn't bad, but I'm certainly not amazing, and yet I've been making killers look plain doofy in 2vs8...
I've been wondering if there are simply far more people who don't normally play killer, playing killer in 2vs8... cause the dumb crap I'm getting away with is ridiculous...
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@MaddieMage said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3837510#Comment_3837510
personally I say the game is already ruined. I’m not agreeing with OP at all but unless you just want the unhook points, your game is already done when someone tries to go next on hook. You can unhook them and they’re just gonna stand there AFK and wait for killer or run at the killer. You’re not saving your game and making it any less ruined because you’re not gonna force someone to participate in a game they’ve already given up on.
You’re not saving your game and making it any less ruined because you’re not gonna force someone to participate in a game they’ve already given up on.
All the more reason to unhook them. They want to ruin the game, they certainly shouldn't be rewarded with a quick escape.
It's called Karma. They deserve to kept in the game as long as possible, if for no other reason than the community expressing their voice that their behaviour is unacceptable... and to be frank there is simply catharsis inconveniencing this player a fraction of the amount they annoy everyone else.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3839617#Comment_3839617
I feel like the class that can consistently do instant gens if you stack 3-4 people on them is the meta class, with Medic gracefully taking second place. It doesn't matter if you can heal if you still get 2-tapped by the Nurse/Spirit/Blight/Huntress wombo combo (apparently Slinger Trapper and Wraith are in 2v8?)
Thats fair, I guess if you've got people that can hit lots of great skillchecks and chain as a 4 pack it can get nutty...
I was more meaning as a simple effect that any goomba survivor can pull off 😅
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It's becoming pretty obvious Medic is the meta class this time around... survivors are catching on fast and bringing 4 medics every game for the 2 pop heal.
The easy fix is to make it so it heals 50% of your remaining progress the same way as Reactive Healing instead of a flat 50%. It'd still be plenty strong but it wouldn't be quite the same level of silliness it is now.
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A lot of you guys talk like you don't know there is basekit Unbreakable in 2vs8...
Your class skill doubles up as an Unbreakable of the killers slug, they really make it hard to win by slugging cause they have to hook at some point, as every survivor can pick themselves up every 90s.
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I've been having a blast in 2vs8.
Blights, Billy's, Huntress, Wraith, doesn't matter. Loads of fun.
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Pretty sure you can report someone for AFK/Helping the other side/body block briefing for that.
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I'm personally kinda excited for Billy coming in properly to 2vs8.
With the pallet rebuild perks now in the game, and saves from all sides being a thing, I think we've got ourselves some potentially awesome high octane games coming.
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I would like a survivor locker aura perk.... would also like the secondary ability to enter lockers 50% faster, so I can do a quiet locker entry without having to rush with Q&Q.
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Don't kid yourself, we all know what the only true answer for a reptilian killer should be...
