UndeddJester
UndeddJester
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@OrangeBear said:
Is it really? It's going from 70% to 60%. This is 46 seconds to cleanse a totem to 35 seconds.
35 seconds is feasible to do, and Counterforce drops this to 29.1s. This is basically old TotH level, which I think we can all agree is perfectly managable.
The problem of the previous version was 47s base, and it was still 39s even with Counterforce... and so many killer interactions made it basically impossible to cleanse, even if the killer wasn't committing to protecting totems...
They could just play normally, guarding hexes as and when and still succeed, whereas now, committing to a chase actually gives genuine windows survivors can deal with totems.
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Uniqueness and interesting build opportunities is my main thought.
- Coulrophobia
- Overwhelming Presense
- Unnerving Presense
- Infectious Fright
- Starstruck
- Slightly more value from all Undetectable perks
Now ofc, not all these perks are strong, in fact most aren't... but imagine if they were.... quirky things like this are fun to build around.
Honestly some of the most fun I have with making builds is messing with the size of my terror radius. I remember using Coulrophobia/Starstruck/Agitation Myers with Rabbit in one build to mask my Starstruck with EW3 and still catch people when I drop back into EW2...
It wasn't a strong build, but hell satisfying when it actually worked, and I've had fun with similar silliness with Wesker 😁
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I've managed to get this achievement twice, and both times it was the same...
When the last player alive, I managed to repair a generator, and the killer found me and seemed to respect the fact I did gens... and led me to gate...
Fun fact, the first time was against a Demo while Stranger Things was barred from the game, and I was so new I wasn't aware of the killer body language yet... so thatbwas my first memory of the killer actually letting me get gate done... I was nervous the whole time xD
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Be interesting to see Inf Tombstone Myers with the latest buffs, but yeah Glint got in first, only Tombstone Mori's count for Evil Incarnate.
Is pretty hard to get now, though I wonder if it might be easier to Tombstone Piece survivors for the achievment now... at least it is actually possible to do unlike before.
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https://youtu.be/opIq7RJo4-0?si=c9NZIqxxu10XU6De@UntilValhalla13 said:
https://youtu.be/opIq7RJo4-0?si=c9NZIqxxu10XU6De
Link fix. This video by Spooky with PixelBush as a guest explores Skull merchant in fine detail.
It is 40 minutes long, but it is a very interesting watch.
Spooky himself plays the role of a layman who doesn't know or understand Skull Merchant, and asks all about her with in game demonstrations from Pixel throughout explaining how things worked and why she basically got taken out back and shot in the head.Survivors do get kinda called out for their bias quite often… and you can consistently hear Pixel's exasperated sighs whenever he has to talk about how dirty survivors played with their SoH and DC tactics to get her killed… and to be fair to Pixel… he's not wrong… it is kinda disgusting the lengths survivors went to to destroy this killer… but as long as you go in with a open mind, there is a wealth of valid and interesting info in this video.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3853915#Comment_3853915
I just can't accept the premise. You're forsaking the high level players' fun in favor of the low level players' fun, which literally no online game does besides this one, through what I would casual-centric balance, which is an oxymoron.
The fact that you even mention Demogorgon hex builds shows how low the bar has been set. That wasn't a big threat in the game at all, because I literally never saw it. But because Joe Schmoe on the forums must've complained about it once, they nerfed Demogorgon instead of solely buffing him. The same thing that made that combo mediocre is the thing that makes current Thrill mediocre. If the killer's guarding totems, rush gens. If he's not guarding totems, do them. If he's mixing it up, you mix it up. So players are just smart enough to recognize, "The bones that glow kill me somehow, and now I must complain on the forums about it." but they're not smart enough to even come close to finding this very simple counterplay. So why reward them, and punish the skilled players?
Your issue may be with MMR. The issue isn't always about balance alone. MMR is meant to keep the noob/learning players away from the high level ones until they're ready. If matches are happening as you say, where the killer always knows what they're doing with strong perk combos, and the survivors are always clueless running meme stuff, that's a mismatch of the system. However, this game is unique in that the average survivor player is really low level, and the average killer is pretty darn good. So even in a flawless MMR system, eventually bad survivors are gonna be put with good killers, and get stomped. So what do you do? Punish the skilled players to spare the casual ones? It doesn't seem fair to me. But it's what's been happening in this game for 6+ years.
I hear what you're saying dude, and I'm not denying your experience, all I'm saying is that defending totems with this configuration is very easy, and that is the key word... easy. It doesn't take any real skill on the killer's part to defend their totems other than patrol them every 40s.
The point is the hexes are made generally more dangerous with this change at high level, but because of the more intricate interactions at those levels, it's managable. However because it is so easy and skillless to get value, it is absolutely devastating at low level. The relative value in low to mid MMR is absolutely massive... and just like you're arguing to not ignore the high level players perspective, you in turn can't ignore the low players perspective.
There are many ways that Hexes could get buffed that are far more healthy for all levels of play... this raw time increase is not a healthy buff at majority of levels of play.
Here are the options for survivors: -
- Can't cleanse totems against a highly lethal/mobile killers or killwrs with nasty scream/interrupt strategies without giving downs/burning resources.
- Can't take perks or items to counter it, cause every perk to counter it is also hindered by 70%.
- Can't take out blank totems, cause most people also take undying, so that's permanent aura reveal for an easy interrupt.
- Have to gen rush before 5 hooks because of Devour hope... players so inclined already gen rus and are balancing their wins against a potential 7-8 hooks before pmayers start dropping... players who don't take perks/items to gen rush get punished extremely hard.
- Have to play in a coordinated SWF to have a chance...
This is a crap deal for most of the survivor player base. Either gen rush, play SWF, or die repeatedly to this really easy hex bulld that a brain dead chimp can use to beat majority of the players who are quite a lot better than him.
This build is NOED on steroids... NOED isn't used by most killers unless they're bad, and want free kills... but NOED drops off hard even in the mid tiers. This build is the new NOED, but it only balances out at high level? That seems very unhealthy does it not friend?
You've got a lot of DBD experience man, I'm sure you can come with a far more clever and interesting buff for hexes that takes some level of skill or knowledge from the killer over this boring time buff that demolishes the casual playerbase.
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@Na1ts1rhc said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3853902#Comment_3853902
Reminds me of what I've been running recently. Lethal Pursuer + FttE + Rancor + Grim Embrace (Should've put this in the start of the thread; my fault)
Need a good pallet build so I'll have to try this out when I get home. Nemesis + Game Afoot seems stupid nastyAh Rancor lottery, I dig it ^^
I tend to do better on stealthy killers with it. I like it a lot on Pig, cause pre-throwing causes Pig a LOT of grief. Ghost Face is fun with it too, though you definitely need some slowdown on GF to help :D
Either way, GL bro! ^^
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3852585#Comment_3852585
I have a feeling we agree on many things, but we come to completely different conclusions. I think the game can be balanced, and I think the reason it hasn't is because the devs haven't even tried. They're taking advice from the most basic, ultra casual, no intention of improving, immersed players. They're not taking it from people who know what they're doing, and when they do, it's only survivor biased stuff.
Thrill kind of proves this. Nobody was using hexes before the buff. When a killer buff happens, it's exciting and shakes up the meta game, or at least gives people that hope, so they start experimenting with the recently buffed perk. But suddenly, after years of being a mechanic in this game, survivors have decided that killer getting to use their hexes, which are permanently destroyed if cleansed, are OP. I've lost to exactly 1 killer who was using a Thrill shaman build, and our loss had nothing to do with the build, and everything to do with playing bad/giving up. That's actually the reason why most survivors die to killers they have no place dying to. But nobody sees it.
So if we just accept that killer perks can't be strong (they're just there), and don't push back against these nerfs, of course the game will never be balanced. It's not using skilled, experienced play as a basis.
I think the real answer is far simpler... balance in DBD is hard, because most players are not top level players.
Is all well and good blaming the casuals, but the casuals make up the bulk of the playerbase, which means their experience is just as, or arguably more important than the top tier players, which a lot of players in this forum are.
Why is Dracula getting changes to bounce between strong/mediocre constantly? Why is Pig on a watch list, yet Nurse isn't even being blinded during charge a blink to stop her exploiting auras to give free hits? Why did Skull Merchant get nuked to oblivion despite high level players agreeing she was mid at best? It's all because the bulk of the player are casuals and have different issues the top level players.
Extremely powerful hexes like Thrill are not really a problem for really good survivors, cause they know the totem spawns on every map, they just check them and pressure at the same time... no worries. If not, just hammer gens, no problem. They could deal with old Devour Hope Demogorgon.... but your average pub lobby could not deal with Devour Hope Demogoron... a lot couldn't even find the totem, let alone coordinate with their SoloQ teammates to cleanse it.
Most casual players are players taking silly builds, doing challenges and not taking medkits with stims or toolboxes with BNPs and all the strongest perk combos. If you run an entirely off meta build and go vs. this build... it's very hard to not just die, even if you play exceptionally well.
I find it hilarious that Devour Hope Demo got nerfed, and then every killed got buffed to be able to do the exact same thing, but the fact of the matter is the only way to deal with Hexes like this is to gen rush faster than the killer can catch people (which is basically escape before hook 5 or die), or being in an extremely coordinated and skilled team that manages to survive in chase long enough vs. the most lethal killers in the game and use those windows well to successfully pressure hexes AND keep it going to then complete 5 gens.
TLDR: A simpler wqy of looking at it... If 20% of the playerbase at the highest levels can just about handle it and the other 80% of the playerbase get smoked repeatedly by it... is it good for the life of your game?
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I do enjoy my m1 killer pallet chewer/haste build:
- Nemesis/Friends Til the End
- Game Afoot
- Brutal Strength/Shadowborn
- Slowdown or one of the above for more shenanigans.
You always gun for the obsession. FttE/Nemesis helps you ensure you can get in chase with obsessions consistently.
You then break pallets to get the Game Afoot haste to stick on people. If you get Shadowborn at the same time as well, you basically get Legion Feral Frenzy hard zoomies for 10 seconds 😁
Very useful against WoO pre throwers 😁😁😁
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Say what you will... freaks me the duck out... 😶😶😶
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This is a fun list... some I agree with, some I really really don't... 😅
What would be fun is say taking Otzdarva's list (8.3.0 is the latest, some of this is out of date), since a lot of people take him as a baseline (more than should, but still), then only posting a tier list of perks that heavily deviate from that list 😏
Might give us an interesting insight into different players playstyles or setups.
For example This Is Not Happening, largely maligned as a pointless perk... however for players on 60 fps with 30-something year old reflexes, this is actually very helpful in scenarios like trying to use the skillcheck medkit add-ons, especially when dealing with doctor madness or whatever. As such I wouldn't put the perk at 1s.
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Can't you understand that we want to live in a free society but we also never want to be offended again?
Our delicate eyes and ears should not have to handle such foul mouthed vulgarity!
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@Langweilig said:
Self preservation
- Whenever another survivor within 24m (was 16m) of you gets hit by a basic or special attack, self preservation activates.
- Your scratch marks, pools of blood, grunts of pain and footstep sounds (new) are hidden for 30s (was 10s)
- Whenever you are in a 24m radius of a downed the timer stops ticking down (new)
That’s how I would buff it. It would become more useful for flashlight saves or just to escape group situations with the killer.
My one concern there, is it becomes more of a Background Player hang around for saves tool (and that's already obnoxious enough). I know this was your intent, but it doesn't fit the theme of the perk. The footsteps being silent allow the perk to be used much more aggressively, which is the opposite of what the perks is intended for. My reading of this perk is you are trying to save yourself and you don't take risks to save others, you use others sacrifice to save yourself.
I would consider giving it notable buffs, but make it something more conditional... something like:
Self Preservation
While injured, whenever another survivor takes a protection hit within 16m of you, self preservation activates for 20/25/30 seconds. While Self Preservation is active:
- Your scratch marks, pools of blood, grunts of pain and aura are hidden.
- You gain 5% haste.
- Your next rushed action is silent.
This would give you options to realistically use LoS blocking windows/pallets/lockers to try and evade the killer after a teammate takes a protection hit through the trial and really one in huge in end game sprints to the gate.
This set of changed would make it harder (though not impossible) to be used aggressively; the conditions make it much harder to exploit, but it now has a meaningful purpose in helping the rush to the gate it someone takes a hit for you, which is actually on brand for the perk... it makes sense for the perks intent.
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Changes I would make: -
- Aura read is 1/2/3s for simplicity. 2 is unnecessarily short. 3s gives you some look around time.
- Aura reveal when killer disturbs a crow in terror radius or when in chase (for Oblivious sufferers).
- Survivors disturbing crows reveals that survivors aura for 1/2/3s.
- Oblivious for the Invoker instead of Broken.
- Allow different Invocations to be done at the same time on the same or multiple players.
- Invocations have a charge up on the perk slot (similar to token charges) that increases with current progress rate while performing the Invocation (multipliers for multiple players included). A player must have been present for a minimum of 50 charges (out of 60) of the invocation to trigger their equipped Invocation, otherwise they must peeform a separate Invocation. (This allows 2 or more players to split the invocations between them, but the additional players have 10 seconds maximum to join the Invocation before they lose the chance)
This gives us some interesting potential for invocations where you can stack up different debuffs on one player, or split them between your team. You can get a bunch of powerful team buffs, but they all come with significant debuffs/downsides for the person who actually makes the sacrifice for the Invocation.
People will.probably say these changes are too weak, but personally, I would happily use this during a Corrupt Intervention start, and be quite happy to take it on occasion in general.
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@SidneysBane1996 said:
I have a fix for you:
The Killer can now Mori ONE person on death hook per round, regardless of if they're the last one or not.There, now you can't slug for a 4k and you don't have to worry about this being a problem.
But... people still slug for the 4k regardless... 🤨
The Finisher Mori makes almost no difference on the slug for the 4k. It's the boogeyman, people are blaming it incorrectly for an inherent problem of the games rules.
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@Queen_HawlSera said:
It's a shame, because with Houndmaster she's clearly a pirate with a doggo friend.
With Skull Merchant, I still can't tell what they're going for. Evil CEO? Comic Book Fangirl? Most Dangerous Game? Discount Predator? Like it felt like they had multiple ideas and just couldn't narrow it down to one.
I still like both characters more than Trickster though.
Attractive, rich psychopath who uses their wealth and normal appearance to enact and get away with their twisted fantasies is what I read from Skull Merchant
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Depends on the era... but...
For me I think the most consistent answer regardless of era would be the Pig 12 box search standard. Thinking about, keeping an eye on, and playing around this mechanic is my favourite thing in the game. 🐷
Second place Trapper's haste boost after setting a trap.
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I'd say no, cause it's nothing to do with sides.
When it comes to balance every player should forget their personal biases and their "side", and try to objectively assess the gameplay from a neutral standpoint. Anyone who has made up their mind before discussing the issue is a fool, and should not base their decision based on a particular "side".
If this is how you approach balance, the entire concept of "compensation" makes 0 sense.
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@CountOfTheFog said:
I beeped the snoot and got a piggy 🐷 back ride to the hatch!
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/7F065TZ37ONN/1939ee3c22283-screenshoturl.jpg
Look, she was even using Distressing so I wouldn't get jump scared!
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/6DTISCNFY27L/1939ee3e9c617-screenshoturl.jpg
- JMF and Straps for crouch shenanigans
- Cruel Limits and Fearmonger for that Demodoggy flavour
- Pain Res to commit to an anti tunneling playstyle
- Distressing because she has absolutely massive ovaries
A true lady of culture you found there ^🐽<
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@smurf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3851787#Comment_3851787
Pig is my favorite killer to play as, so she's basically become my main. What you say is true. 👉 🐽
If only they hadn't discovered my one weakness…
by GurronDragon
https://www.reddit.com/user/gurrendragon/I am powerless… plz halp!
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@smurf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3851819#Comment_3851819
This is perhaps the only rational post I've seen defending the finisher mori. Personally, I've grown to dislike it more and more over time. Either way though, thanks for putting together a coherent post about it :D
I'd also like to add that the finisher mori gives a basekit ability that denies any chance at wiggling off for an endgame escape. And although people say that's rare, I managed it in a match a few days ago, but only because my last teammate hit all their skill checks on hook. I was crawling to the exit and the killer needed to mori because my team and I got us to a state where she couldn't get me to a hook. But that escape would have been impossible if my teammate weren't hitting every check. Killer picked me up right before I got out, so I wiggled off and escaped just seconds before my teammate's second hook state ran out. I've definitely also spectated matches that could have been similarly close depending on perks. So I don't want to say those situations are common, but they make some of the most memorable escapes and can now just be denied most of the time as a basekit ability (though not in the one example I just gave).
And while I see the finisher mori as much more negative than positive, I just wanted to say thanks for writing a decent post on the topic!
Cheers muchly! ^^
I will admit that I do feel like the Finisher Mori isn't at the best place it could be, I would hope that a lot of the negative aspects people find with it could be smoothed over to make it a cool thing for everyone (within reason ofc… anyone who hate's mori's in general probably can't be convinced) xD
Wow, that's one nutty save… Gz! 🤣
I do feel like the Finisher Mori is fine itself… its the circumstances it comes about I believe that is usually the problem… and why people have issue with it.
A Silly Suggestion
If we wanted to hard deal with 4k slugging, one method would be to have it where the Entity plays one final game to maximise the hope for the survivor and test their killer with a final hunt.
When the third survivor dies or begins being sacrificed to the Entity:
- If the final survivor is greater than 32m from the killer, the killer gains Killer Instinct on that survivor for 6 seconds.
- If the final survivor is in the dying state, they gain the ability to pick themselves up a single time out of the dying state.
- If the killer closes the hatch and the survivor is greater that 32 m from the killer, the killer gains Killer Instinct on the final survivor for 6 seconds.
Also I'd make a general change to allow slugged survivors to swap items on the floor and in chests while in the dying state… just so if you can go looking for a key while you're slugged. Also remove hatch offerings for survivor side.
This means that the survivor always has a chance to escape… but also has a harder time evading the killer, especially if the killer hooked the final player, as they'll get all the time it takes for the Entity to sacrifice the survivor to move across the map and search for a survivor far away before hatch spawns.
No killer I know actually enjoys slugging for the 4k if they need an adept or a challenge, it's more just necessary cause it's otherwise a total crap shoot, and looking for a slug after you've slugged them in itself is annoying…. At least with this version, we're pointed right at the survivor, and it's a more exciting game affot where we genuinely have a final chase to try and close the match out, instead we're not walking around blindly like a jerk looking for the hatch, and then trying to spot a scratch mark at an exit gate.
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Well… BHVR don't force anything… It's just noone plays without crossplay on.
Now if "Console only" crossplay was a thing, where console players could only play against console players, then maybe that might get some traction, but the individual platforms just don't get enough traffic… Although even then, you can play survivor perfectly fine on a controller to a high level (Such as Cope), and you can also play a decent number of killers reasonably well on console… So it's still a pretty hard sell.
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NGL, ever since his release I have often felt he was a little easy to play against… fun, but I often did better against him than most…
Though I got absolutely slapped by an Unknown the other day… man just didn't miss and he read everyone like a book… was kinda scary how badly this guy ruined my life…
Now I don't know how to feel about it… I felt really helpless vs. this man… 😂😭 -
The way I view this iteration of the perk is somewhere between the caution I view with For the People, but with the power of DS/Unbreakable. It's a good perk… but you can't just use it as and when you feel like it, there is a lot of "read the room" involved… this is what tips it to be more of SWF perk, cause you have that room knowledge to exploit it better, but it is still perfectly usable in SoloQ.
When I use it in SoloQ, it's similar to Unbreakable or Decisive Strike for me; a powerful perk that you take knowing that you won't necessarily be able to use it… but if you do get to use it, it can be potentially make a game winning play.
The biggest issue I have in SoloQ is unhook happy teammates. I know that my teammates tend to have a habit of immediately going to hook for unhooks and trades regardless of their positioning on the map… and I, not being a total mook, understand that I need to stay on gens, cause no other scrub on my team is going to… What STB allows me to do, is do my job of sticking on Gens, I don't have to read my teammates being careless with their hook states as such a problem now, because when they inevitably screw it up, I have a rewind button.
Once people are on deathhook they normally play a little more carefully, and if I haven't been harassed all match, I've got another 70s I can buy my team once they stop being dumb and start doing gens. If the killer is camping, doesn't matter, I can even let them go an extra hook stage, and get my gen done…. every hook stage is a resource to use against the killer, and too many survivors don't treat it like a resource.
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In the spirit of presenting both sides of an argument, to summarise, these are the issues I believe people have with the Finisher Mori: -
- It promotes slugging for the 4k, leaving a player having to sit and have to wait up to 4 minutes to lose an already lost game.
- Players who's tempers and frustrations at the game via numerous other unfun strategies employed by the other side see it as insult to injury, making the game feel more toxic.
- Players are more likely to TRY for the 4k, and those who might have otherwise given hatch and make the game feel more about "fair play", will be more likely to take the cool Finisher Mori ending instead, making a loss for survivors typically feel more bitter.
However the points I would raise in defence of the Finisher Mori are: -
- Slugging for the 4k is for the most part basically unchanged. It was just as prevelant before. If a killer wanted a 4k, they would slug for it before finisher mori was a thing. The only difference now is there is a finer "point" or "sting" to it.
- The killer is supposed to go for the 4k, there is literally no part of the game, either via mechanics or theme that encourages you to show ANY mercy whatsoever. The fact a number of killers (like me) do is an exception, not a rule, and should not be expected.
- This is a horror game. Most horror fans like cool kills, and that is also true of horror fan survivors. The DBD player base isn't just horror fans, but not giving Mori's they're proper place as a common element of the game would be akin to trying to remove the blood and gore because some people are squeemish. We're playing Dead by Daylight, not Barbie and Ken's Party Games.
- Mori's being gated behind offerings only, at the deteriment of things like additional bloodpoints sucks, especially for new killers first getting into the role who don't have many Mori offerings/need the bloodpoints.
- Finisher Mori makes sense for the eventual and obvious win inclusion of purchasable Mori's, which many fans have wanted in the game for years…. and it's a little baffling it isn't already here…
I feel like people point the finger at the Finisher Mori, but it's not the actual problem. Maybe more people do TRY to go for the 4k, but if you think about it, going for the 4k shouldn't be and isn't a crime. They should instead be pointing at Hatch and Slugging for the 4k and addressing those actual pain points; slugging for the 4k is a byproduct of hatch, not the finisher mori, and would not go away if we removed it.
My anecdotal experience is as part of the remaining 2 survivors, I'd say i've typically played for hatch is maybe 1 in 10 games, and it's now 1 in 20. I've probably been given hatch maybe 1 in 100 games compared to the old 1 in 50 games (I get given hatch or gate very rarely unless the killer got rinsed and let me go cause they mental boomed).
This all means the complaints on the finisher mori don't really make sense to me. I personally believe the Finisher Mori is better if it's an incentive for the killer to play hatch, that idea that the Entity rewards the killer for giving hope to Survivors and then successfully snatching it away. Maybe make the hatch offerings for both sides hidden so that either side can take them and then gamble on reaching the hatch first to go for their Mori. Doing that you could even give the huge Exp reward that was toted on the Finisher Mori.
Now if people want to tell me they just don't like getting Mori'd, fair enough…. but I would argue you should probably realise that you're not really the target audience for DBD and Mori's… You're still welcome to be here, but its kinda selfish to put your personal disdain for Mori's over that of the horror community at large. I would hope if you saw Horror fans in Fortnite complaining about Myers not gutting people with big spurts of blood and gore, you'd tell them the exact same… this is not the game for you.
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And I woulda gotten away with it too, if it weren't for those meddling kids booping my snoot! >🐽<
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I'm constantly shifting my build anyway so I never get too comfortable with any particular perk or playstyle, so I'm never too attached to any perk.
I suppose I do stop playing perks that are about to change via nerf subconsciously, mostly out not seeing the point of putting some miles on it when whatever value I will see/learn will be made obsolete soon anyway.
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If I remember right, I read somewhere that it was approximately a 700 MMR swing.
The only thing you can do in scenarios like this is not play mean, and instead make a point to not tunnel, not camp, and if all else fails, be funny.
I remember playimg against a cracked Bubba, and when I predropped a pallet, he looked at it, and then looked like he span his mouse like a spinning top and slapped the pallet with his hammer before walking off... looked like he was containing his rage... I didn't mind getting smoked by that Bubba xD
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@AetherBytes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3851378#Comment_3851378
I've been playing the build more since then, and it's just been slamming teams in general, even stacked ones.
Oh, apologies, on a re-read, I see how what I said might have came across :D
I didn't mean that this team was bad or anything therefore your point is invalid.I was more pointing at Nowhere to Hide seems to stand out as the perk that is pushing this build over the top. If your skill is solid enough (sounds like it is), the aura of the survivors themselves off NTH makes it so that Survivors can't even try and stealth away and hide… which would be the normal counter once they figure out that Jagged Compass is in play :D
OFC this is a logical combo, but I think you'd get basically the same value/strength off BBQ and Chilli or Gearhead ^^
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I think it was more Nowhere to Hide doing the heavy lifting here really, not so much Jagged Compass...
Plus the fact the only survivor with a halfway decent build was the Adam.
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@Valimure said:
You'd think survivor mains would be more excited about killers not running gen regression or aura reading perks.
Doesn't matter what killer it is, they can't defend every objective on the map at once. Just do the gens and leave the hexes if they're that much of a pain.
Doesn't matter what killer it is
I think you underestimate how devilishly clever the DBD community is with an effect like this. 😉
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@sanees said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3848117#Comment_3848117
You know it doesn't work if no one is injured or if the damned survivor is hooked, all you need to do is stay in the chase for longer than 20 seconds without getting hit, loop and pre-drop, then other survivors will easily destroy totems
Or y'know, the killer has a brain cell and injures one player without a medkit with a Haemorrhage add-on, leaves them and hunts everyone else for free.
If that survivor doesn't have (or even if they do have totem perks), hey presto, you've got Pig levels of slowdown, on a much more lethal killer.
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@poujh said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3850363#Comment_3850363
there's no need to manually test anything it's always the same old basic formula they use, wiki just hasn't been updated in a while i guess. have a look at this it's got you covered
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/kb/articles/386Cheers that man!
I'm just a little anal and like having a source to cite whenever possible 😁
Great link!
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There are far more combinations of add-ons and killer powers that create problems with TotH, and even if all of those get nerfed/fixed to not be a problem, if it remains in its current state it will continue to be a problem element and have to be accounted for when designing every future killer as well.
No to mention highly mobile killers, which are already top of the pile, become even more top of the pile.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3850712#Comment_3850712
sometimes, you have to take the opposite position that is unpopular and seemingly not defendable. i am not going to convince you that the perk is not busted/unfair but i will say that sometimes it's fair when killer gets value out of their perks.
Absolutely fair enough, and in the spirit of extending an olive branch, I'm totally with you that hex perks value could and should be better/more reliable...
However I do believe this change with TotH is not the best way to achieve that.
Still, peace offering for sure 🤘
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3850665#Comment_3850665
Any time you look at a perk and think "I value this perk/combo above any other peek/combo" it's a good sign the perk is unhealthy.
so i value bamboozle on leatherface because strong window loops make his power very time consuming. does that mean bamboozle is unhealthy? if you value a perk over another perk, it is often because that perk compensates weaknesses for that killer.
i have been playing a lot of knight recently with thrill and devour hope. i like the combo on him because i find knight's time to down very slow and i find his guards decent at chasing survivors away from totems. unhealthy or just compensating killer weaknesses+good power synergy?
Yeah... saying bamboozle is strong holds true for specific killer combos... Bamboozle is a good perk, and a very good perk on Bubba specifically... but it isn't a mandatory pick for every killer.
You cannot compare Bamboozle on Bubba to Eruption/CoB and Pain Res/Pop on every single killer regardless of playstyle... which is why I specifically highlighted those metas.
These new TotH Hex combos are nigh uncounterable if the killer pays attention on numerous killers: -
- Blight
- Spirit
- Wesker
- Knight
- Singularity
- Doctor
- Wraith
- Artist
- Pinhead
And outside of those, it can be almost or just as strong on numerous others.
I'm really not sure why you're trying to die on this hill so hard my guy. We've always debated each other quite productively, but on this one, it's obviously busted... and it is starting to feel like you're trying to keep nitpicking everything to undermine and distract from the arguments against it.
It looks a lot like deflection man, and while I'm not yet accusing you of it, if we keep getting bogged down in rather irrelevant details, it's gonna get increasingly more difficult to take you seriously on this issue.
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Both as killer and survivor, I don't like it when any perk becomes so monumentally strong I basically have no reason not to take it. To defend perk combos such as this is missing the big picture and rather short sighted.
Let's think about the Pain: Res and Pop meta and the Eruption, CoB meta. Defending these kind of things is a self defeating stance to take... because these combos were so strong, everyone ran it, which meant all killers, including the weaker ones, maintained good kill rates despite the fact they were otherwise struggling to compete without them. What happens when we nerfnthem? Hey, loads of killers start getting basekit buffs and QoL improvements.
It's the same thing for the Decisive Strike, Borrowed Time and Dead Hard metas. Everyone runs them cause they are strong, and because of that, Survivors maintain good survival rates, even if at base there is something lacking for the survivor side, meaning anyone not playing those perks is at a disadvantage that stands a much lower chance of being noticed and fixed. What happens when we nerf them? The perk metas start to balanace out, and hey, a whole load of other perks start getting buffs because they are no longer a risk of pushing already broken perks over the top.
Any time you look at a perk and think "I value this perk/combo above any other peek/combo" it's a good sign the perk is unhealthy.
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@Lixadonna said:
No thank you. We don't need Iridescent Hatchet Huntress proxy camp ready to fire.
I would say with the extensive nerfs to the add-on, and basekit changes to anti-facecamp and longer hook times... This build would be a meme at best... and often just a throw.
@dbd900bach said:
I think you're on the right track. Insidious should do more to make the killer less detectable, but rather than the undetectable effect, I feel like it could maybe remove the bloodstain, or like you said, remove audio cues from certain killers. Standing still and being undetectable is something certain killers can already do and it promotes an unhealthy playstyle so it needs a change.
Not a bad suggestion, but I feel hiding red light is stepping more into Beast of Prey territory, which also needs buffs. 🤔
Insidious' big problem is identifying what it's niche should be. The current iteration is more a cheesy noob trap (that I have fallen for myself), that keeps only getting worse as the game evolves. You can't really use it dynamically, so its only use is as a cheesy meme perk.
Perhaps inspiration can be derived from its definition, "proceeding in a gradual and subtle way, but with very harmful effects".
Maybe something to help slower stealth killers make up their lost time a bit might be nice, something related to stacking up while moving slower than default walking speed (thinking about characters like Myers, Pig, Ghost Face), and having something they can build up via tokens to compensate for their slower map movements?
Could be break action speed, or a haste boost after kicking a gen for so long, etc, etc.
Note: I wouldn't do unconditional haste of course, cause that is basically Wraith's power.
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@Alen_Starkly said:
There's a thing I've wanted for a while for Counterforce. If you cleanse a totem with Counterforce, and the furthest totem turns out to be a boon totem, you basically don't get any info, as you already see where the boon totem is. Although, if you are hunting down totems, this is actually hindering, because you don't get the info you want. You can't cleanse the boon, and you also get no info on other totems.
What I asked a few times was this: If, upon cleansing a totem with Counterforce, the furthest totem is a boon totem, ignore that totem and show the aura of the 2nd furthest totem. Switch to the next totem in line if the next furthest one is also a boon.
Actually solid suggestion... revealing the furthest non boon totem is another great QoL.
I not really convinced this perk really needs any number buffs, it's fine as is... but annoying little things like this being addressed would be really nice.
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@doobiedo said:
Of course it's not healthy for the game, just like old Weave Attunement. Some killer players just have the idea that because they are supposedly the "power role" its fine for them to have completely broken perks. If you can't do at least decently at killer without taking advantage of the most scummy builds you can find you're just bad at the game, period. The problem is Bhvr. listens to whining killer players because they dominate the forums.
I genuinely believe looking at the numbers, this was a genuine error. Everything that lost bloodpoints was buffed by 4/5/6% or so... and I think someone looked at Thrill of the Hunt and just said "yeah 4% seems good", without realising that it is actually 20%.
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Confirmed BTW:
The 70% slow of TotH is applied after the positive buffs to totem speed. This annoyingly is not written in the wiki anywhere that I can find, so had to manual test and time it.
This means the 70% also applies to Counterforce as well, which means the +0.2c/s you get normally from Counterforce becomes +0.06c/s, so you effectively get 6% bonus speed from Counterforce (46.67s becomes 38.89s).
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@Boons123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3850289#Comment_3850289
If you cleanse a totem and do not see any totem aura, it means that all totems have been cleansed.
I can count totems done off the HUD perfectly fine, and I can remember how many totems I've done... my point is I shouldn't have to.
The perk is a token perk in every way with how it stacks up and how it functions, but for some reason it doesn't represent those stacks to the player. The way this is always done for every other perk of the same ilk is using tokens. I
If nothing else than for the sake of consistency and maintaining a standard uniform perk design, it should be made a token perk.
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@Boons123 said:
In my opinion, it doesn't need to be changed since you can take the red map and increase the range by add-one and you can cleanse any totem you see with its aura, especially since you get an additional 20% bonus after cleansing a totem, so in my opinion this is the best perk design.
Gotta admit I do like maps.
Though the tokens point is surely worth a thought?
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3850178#Comment_3850178
This is not how these builds should be buffed.
Provides no follow-up.
To be fair, highlighting a problem doesn't necessarily require a solution to be provided. There have been suggestions and topics for years on how to make hex perks more effective/less spawn RNG reliant, including but not limited to: -
- Improving map spawn locations for hexes on a number of maps.
- Allowing the killer to place a hex by choosing a totem to activate with each hex (either by walking to it, or better yet remotely)
- Removing the glow effect if over a certain radius from the hex.
- Not having the bones gain the hex glow until the Hex is activated/gains a token for the first time.
- Taking the Japan ruleset and blocking all hex totems until the first generator is completed.
I think it's fair to say buffing cleanse time is probably the least interesting of all of these.
The issue I see with it is, even if we take the stance TotH makes hexes balanced (which it doesn't when you see all the horrible builds that are popping up on various killers such as Singularity, but we'll assume it does), that would make it the case that Thrill of Hunt makes totems viable by pushing cleanse times to over 3 times their base cleanse speed.
This makes the perk mandatory for hexes to be viable, and without hexes are still not viable…. which is still ass from a design perspective.
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@CleanseThis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3849495#Comment_3849495
Ill stick with soft but whatever.
Gotta start somewhere. Some say killer is hell, Some solo is hell. I've never seen more introverted gamers than on this forum.
I've never seen more introverted gamers than on this forum
Guilty. 😊
My personal feeling on this is it is antithetical to what DBD is trying to achieve.
Theme
DBD is a horror experience. People will say it isn't scary, but I would argue any horror game where you have thousands of hours, that horror experience diminishes substantially; can you think of any horror game that still scares you after 1000 hours? No…. just look at speed runners playing the scariest games.
DBD is pretty scary for quite a while as a new player, and even after you start hitting thousands of hours, I still get moments where I jump outta my skin. I get moments such as a Bubba with Tinkerer, or not seeing anyone enter chase for like 30s at the start, and lookign around manically for Ghost Face, Myers or Pig, or a Nurse who I think is in chase with another survivor suddenly appearing next to me out of nowhere, or my gut doing flip flops while I'm holding onto the gate during a gate standoff praying the killer doesn't turn the corner. Regardless of that lack of fear, DBD still has a certain aesthetic and feel about it that the introduction of voice comms would absolutely and utterly destroy.
Listening to 13 year old kids screaming "Oh get ######### on!", listening to Colin from Brighton's wife on the phone in background, 2 idiots arguing about 1 players use of a god pallet, or even genuinely useful comms like "the killer is Wraith, he's stealth chasing me at shack", it all completely destroys whatever horror aura the game still has, and will also destroy the genuine horror experience that new players have….
I'm pretty sure if you ask any veteran of the game, pretty much all of them would love to have that scared, helpless feeling they had when they first started playing the game back.
Gameplay
There is also the argument that the lack of comms is part of the game. Horror is all about making difficult decisions with imperfect information. The general uncertainty for what is your best guess at any given moment is part of the difficulty of playing the game, and I know I for one have much more fun playing in SoloQ and trying to read the game/predict player behaviour, than playing in a SWF, cranking gens and getting a constant report on the killers status at all times.
Playing in a SWF is generally pretty braindead, and it often gets the coop boardgame problem, where one player tells you what you should be doing at all times rather than leaving the agency up to yourself. I absolutely don't believe this should be the model for DBD to follow, and I certainly don't think the gameplay "enhancements" outweigh the numerous downsides of adding chat… evne if you somehow could make that chat toxic free and always useful.
To my mind from a purely game design point of view, SWF is a necessary evil of DBD. Having SWF in the game actively fights the goals and point of the game, and if it wouldn't kill the game completely (and also wouldn't be completely pointless due to the ease of joining party's and discord chats anyway), I'd straight up remove it… it causes so many other design problems just by existing, especially with regards to balance…
However even I also like playing with friends from time to time, and there are people that only play cause their mates play too…. so this would do more damage than it is worth.
Overall I think voice comms, is an absolute terrible idea in every facet…. but if players want it, then go ahead…. however I will have mute on permanently in every game, because playing with voice chat simply isn't the authentic DBD experience.
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"Hey, well played! GG, good luck with next!"
That will annoy them more than any insult you can ever make.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3849714#Comment_3849714
We think that'd make survivor to op mate XD
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Amazing xD
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I definitely want 3 killers I can perma ban from my games: -
- Survivors who loop near the hook and/or the 3 gen and refuse to leave/lure the killer away.
- Survivors who immediately let go of gens and sprint through literal fire to immediately unhook while the killer is 10ft away.
- Survivors who DC or SoH because they have all the resilience, integrity and sportsmanship of your average sweaty MMORPG noob hunter.
My Survivor games would be so much better without them.
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@Grigerbest said:
"Perk meta is more balanced then ever."
Agree. But it's getting old. I want to use something different, but once I do - it's the moment where I'm gonna be unhappy about the outcome.
Hey beckons to alley... Hey you!...
Want more fun in DBD? Why don't you ban yourself from meta and try picking a perk, then try and make a build around it? Keeps games fresh and interesting.
If you win, great, you won playing off meta... you might even discover a new previously unknown combo that helps you win by virtue of the fact no one expects it/thinks to counter it!
If you lose, who cares? You lost playing off meta... if you sauced the killer for more than 40s with no perks to help you in chase, or you managed to get 7 hooks and 1k on Trapper without copius amounts of slowdown... hey... that's pretty good!
Your time is valuable, and games are supposed to be fun. When you play more for fun rather than playing to win, you stop taking the game so seriously. The mere fact you're challenging and handicapping yourself by playing weaker killers and/or less strong builds makes small victories still meaningful, and an accomplishment, even if you lost the game.
The added benefit of this playstyle/mentality? If you get tired of having games you get smoked, you've always got room to crank it up by adding perks that gives you a more competitive edge... but if you're already at max kilter every single game... there is nowhere to go to, you're already running flat out, so there is no room for taking it up a notch... nor is there room for fun. 😁
P.S. Ignore my BS... I felt like standing on a soapbox 🤣
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@GeneralV said:
I don't do that, I usually try to crawl towards where I think the hatch might spawn. Got extremely lucky a few times.
But if the killer moris me I don't dislike it, it is better than yet another hook. At least I get to see a nice mori.
Oh yeah, if I can still escape, I always go for it... but there are times you just know the killer has got your number.
E.g. the killer finds hatch and the spots you while you're trying to open the gate... it's like you're a done deal at that point, and I end up thinking "well at least let's make it cool" xD