TrAiNwReCk
TrAiNwReCk
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@fluffybunny said:
@TrAiNwReCk said:
@ermsy said:
NuclearBurrito2 said:Not saying that NOED in particular is fine. But in general perks that give you a boost when you are losing are not problematic, however that is only true so long as the boost is less than the snowball from the fact that you are losing (or in otherwords you should never be MORE likely to win now that the survivors have made additional progress). Those gens should always hurt you more than they help you, but that does not mean they can't help you, hence end game builds.
like, a survivor is very likely to escape once the gate is powered, not as likely if the killer has NOED, but even in that case they are still more likely to escape compared to when the gate isn't powered.
DS is problematic because you are more likely to survive a chase after using it compared to when you were initially injured or downed
Or in otherwords a perk can turn a point of failure into a point of lesser failure and still be fair. However it is not fair for a perk to turn a point of failure into a point of success.
Keep in mind that even without NOED it is possible for the killer to win after the gates are powered. Thus having a boost that makes it possible to win is still a point of failure as the gates being powered still makes it highly possible to lose compared to before then.
(I consider blood warden and remember me to both be stronger than NOED in this context since they are more effective at letting you win the game after the gates are powered)
I agree that ds is much more of a problem compared to noed as respecting the possibility of a noed as a survivor is usually enough to escape. You just have to take ds most of the time and hope you can resolve the second chase quickly, if not you lose.
I don't believe remember me and blood warden is stronger. Although Remember me is very strong but promotes tunneling and blood warden is too situational, survivors can make themselves scarce if they know about it and you have to time the hook.
This is only my opinion
The only reason why NOED is a problem at all is because of over altruistic survivors.
- Survivor (A) got hooked
- Survivor (B) opens gate
- (B) is really good or has borrowed time "I can get my mate easy, no way the killer can stop us!"
- (A) i'm getting rescued "This is awesome we are both going to escape!"
Survivor (B) runs FEARLESSLY towards the killer knowing the plan "there's no way I can be stopped, the gate is right next to us as well!"
Killer swings INSTANT DOWN
Survivor A & B "You trash, noob, no good blah blah blah"
The killer was at least going to get that 1 kill, and instead of escaping your friend went in for the save. Survivors should play with some sort of fear saying "Screw this I don't want to take a chance, i'm out of here" NOED changes that possibility entirely and survivors hate that. Like players who camp with insidious. Never ever ever, when facing leather face and see a survivor hooked in the basement will I ever go for the save. And for players who rush in without thinking twice getting mad that they were just downed by an insidious camping leather face only have them selves to blame for charging in thinking it's just like any other game. Survivors blame yourself, not the perks. I have died due to stupidity and instead of coming to complain in the forums I have tried to learn, to accept and work around it.
I will happily struggle till the time runs out to give my team time to gen rush a camping killer, but HATE when I see them run downstairs to the rescue without any thought of their fate.
Only my experience and opinion.
In my experience, survivors have issue with it because it can turn a 1k into a 3/4k. The killer could do poorly and still net a win with a perk's help.
No doubt the perk can swing things in the killers favor, but unless the other survivors are happily dancing in front of the killer at the very least 2 can get out if they jump on a gate until it's open and then leave.
Admittedly, back in the day when I used NOED, a game where I was so lucky to get 1 survivor on the hook before a gate was opened and they all escaped. Many games the other 3 would stay . . and keep messing around like they're going to outsmart me. All I want is at at least one kill, I was terrible back then. Nope here they come swarming the hook, ready to body block and all because they didn't walk out of the open gate ROFL.
I totally agree with you, but it has been in so many cases that survivors have a gate open. They can leave, but they chose to stay. Any time a survivor chooses to stay instead of leave, they need to get over it if they die.
I can see NOED as an anti borrowed time perk at the end game. Without NOED with 1 or more players going for the save to body block and the BT protecting the injured there is no way a killer is going to secure any kill. And survivors get to use borrowed time throughout the entire game.
Again, I agree with you that the perk can help get a massive snowball in an otherwise lost game, but 9/10 times the other survivors simply had to leave out the gate, but chose to stay. Their choice not to leave caused their death, not the perk they weren't counting on the killer having. The perk just made it possible.
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@ermsy said:
NuclearBurrito2 said:Not saying that NOED in particular is fine. But in general perks that give you a boost when you are losing are not problematic, however that is only true so long as the boost is less than the snowball from the fact that you are losing (or in otherwords you should never be MORE likely to win now that the survivors have made additional progress). Those gens should always hurt you more than they help you, but that does not mean they can't help you, hence end game builds.
like, a survivor is very likely to escape once the gate is powered, not as likely if the killer has NOED, but even in that case they are still more likely to escape compared to when the gate isn't powered.
DS is problematic because you are more likely to survive a chase after using it compared to when you were initially injured or downed
Or in otherwords a perk can turn a point of failure into a point of lesser failure and still be fair. However it is not fair for a perk to turn a point of failure into a point of success.
Keep in mind that even without NOED it is possible for the killer to win after the gates are powered. Thus having a boost that makes it possible to win is still a point of failure as the gates being powered still makes it highly possible to lose compared to before then.
(I consider blood warden and remember me to both be stronger than NOED in this context since they are more effective at letting you win the game after the gates are powered)
I agree that ds is much more of a problem compared to noed as respecting the possibility of a noed as a survivor is usually enough to escape. You just have to take ds most of the time and hope you can resolve the second chase quickly, if not you lose.
I don't believe remember me and blood warden is stronger. Although Remember me is very strong but promotes tunneling and blood warden is too situational, survivors can make themselves scarce if they know about it and you have to time the hook.
This is only my opinion
The only reason why NOED is a problem at all is because of over altruistic survivors.
- Survivor (A) got hooked
- Survivor (B) opens gate
- (B) is really good or has borrowed time "I can get my mate easy, no way the killer can stop us!"
- (A) i'm getting rescued "This is awesome we are both going to escape!"
Survivor (B) runs FEARLESSLY towards the killer knowing the plan "there's no way I can be stopped, the gate is right next to us as well!"
Killer swings INSTANT DOWN
Survivor A & B "You trash, noob, no good blah blah blah"
The killer was at least going to get that 1 kill, and instead of escaping your friend went in for the save. Survivors should play with some sort of fear saying "Screw this I don't want to take a chance, i'm out of here" NOED changes that possibility entirely and survivors hate that. Like players who camp with insidious. Never ever ever, when facing leather face and see a survivor hooked in the basement will I ever go for the save. And for players who rush in without thinking twice getting mad that they were just downed by an insidious camping leather face only have them selves to blame for charging in thinking it's just like any other game. Survivors blame yourself, not the perks. I have died due to stupidity and instead of coming to complain in the forums I have tried to learn, to accept and work around it.
I will happily struggle till the time runs out to give my team time to gen rush a camping killer, but HATE when I see them run downstairs to the rescue without any thought of their fate.
Only my experience and opinion.
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@ShrimpTwiggs said:
@ermsy said:
ShrimpTwiggs said:@ermsy said:
ShrimpTwiggs said:
Killers: If the killer camps, rush gens. Survivors: rush gens NOED pops Killers: Do totems. On a side note, I can't stand the argument that NOED counters gen rush. Please stop defending the devs' habit of fixing game play problems with perks.
What if the killer doesn't camp?
Then that's purely their decision.If they down someone early in the game, camping would pretty much guarantee a tie at least. But if they don't and they apply good map pressure, it makes it very difficult for survivors to take out the totems, especially if they're playing a viable killer. Which leads me to another issue with NOED. It furthers the gap between Solos and SWF even more. NOED is incredibly weak against SWF, but against solos who don't have the same communication, a lot of time could be wasted searching.
A simple buff to small game would solve that, a counter showing how many totems are left. I think noed adds a flavour of fear and uncertainty when I'm survivor but that's just me.
Fair point. I can agree with the small game buff. I run it and it helps, but I still feel like I have to search the map to be sure.
It sucks that you have to be the one to finish a gen in order to use, but it would be crazy powerful without some type of limitation on it's use.
I have found detectives hunch one hell of a perk, so long as I am on a gen popping to make use of it. That and the killer doesn't high tail it to my location. Seeing all totems/chests/gens within a 64 meter range is so useful, but doubt many use it. I do because meta perks get old and finding totems is fun.
Give detectives hunch some love people!
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@FireHazard said:
@TrAiNwReCk said:
@FireHazard said:
@The_Crusader said:
Lmao at these last 2 comments."Just cleans totems guys"
"Hey devs make it harder for survivors to cleanse totems"
Oh well back to asking for 7 gens I guess?
Nah, gotta make it an even number...we need 8!
@The_Crusader Clearly you can't see we want to 'help survivors' within our comments.
"Lmao at these last 2 comments."
"Hey devs make it harder for survivors to cleanse totems"
Can you read?
I mentioned the devs will be adding a totem counter to the survivor HUD making it EASIER
FireHazard mentioned BUFFING small game
You would probably think someone talking about survivors only having 1 gen to do "LMAO this person just wants to make it harder on survivors" This is why killers can't reason with survivors about balance. They couldn't tell balance if it wasn't called balanced landing. "balanced landing didn't go off" other survivor "are you sure your landing was balanced? It needs to be a balanced landing for it to work!"
Neither side can reason with each other in-general on anything.
Probably true. These forums are a testament to that 1,000 x over!
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@NightmareReborn said:
I feel like people hate it because it rewards poor performance. I'd just make it so that survivors know the killer has noed when the last gen is popped rather when a survivor is hit. It would give extra warning to the survivors. Also that the NOED totem would be revealed in a small radius so you would have to spend 10 hrs finding it.I don't care about NOED or DS. They both can be annoying to go up against, but I like your thoughts on players perception of the NOED perk.
- I feel like people hate it because it rewards poor performance
If this truly is the majority of players perception I as a killer who couldn't care if NOED stays or goes.
- Remove NOED for killers
- Remove hatch for survivors
NO MORE REWARDING ANYONE FOR BAD PERFORMANCE
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@FireHazard said:
@The_Crusader said:
Lmao at these last 2 comments."Just cleans totems guys"
"Hey devs make it harder for survivors to cleanse totems"
Oh well back to asking for 7 gens I guess?
Nah, gotta make it an even number...we need 8!
@The_Crusader Clearly you can't see we want to 'help survivors' within our comments.
"Lmao at these last 2 comments."
"Hey devs make it harder for survivors to cleanse totems"
Can you read?
I mentioned the devs will be adding a totem counter to the survivor HUD making it EASIER
FireHazard mentioned BUFFING small game
You would probably think someone talking about survivors only having 1 gen to do "LMAO this person just wants to make it harder on survivors" This is why killers can't reason with survivors about balance. They couldn't tell balance if it wasn't called balanced landing. "balanced landing didn't go off" other survivor "are you sure your landing was balanced? It needs to be a balanced landing for it to work!"
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@TreemanXD said:
The_Crusader said:Killers - Enter game with NOED, Ruin, ebony mori, iridescent heads, prayer beads, and a laggy connection that teleports survivors bsck to them
"KillErz n33d m0re Bufs GuyZ"
@The_Crusader that huntress is an idiot with only one hatchet. Also in my experience sometimes bad connection hurts you as killer, the survivors teleport through you and away from you.
Don't worry 'Dedicated Servers' will fix this problem.
- Survivor has bad connection
- Killer has bad connection
Woohoo, more teleporting!
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@alflowers11 said:
@DarkGGhost said:
@alflowers11 said:
Agree with you Evilblade0... I killer do have a lot perks that allow them to find you more easier, yet we as survivor can not defend yourself or a least get ourselves off the hook more than once...You suppose to be the weak side and yes you have the most OP perks so just leave it be.
So it is ok for yall killer to have other killer perks on giving us no chance to survivor.... So what yall going to do if no one want play as a survivor because there are to weak? How you going to play as killer?
Since survivors are 4:1 (without wait time on either side supports this) I would imagine there will always be survivors to get into a killer lobby eventually.
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@Vietfox said:
The_Crusader said:@Vietfox said:
Bad game design for bad survivors.
yawn
How much does Behaviour pay you to defend all of their decisions?
Bad game design is not giving surviors any clue as to how is cleansing totems are how many are cleansed. Lets just have all 4 survivors running around looking for 5 totems, I'm sure we'll manage to get the gens done too.
How many training wheels do you need to accept the game as it is right now?
Noed can be negated before it triggers, if survivors refuse to counter it then it's on them.
Yeah, sometimes the killer is good at keeping the map pressure and you are forced to do gens instead of totems, so what?Survivors don't need to worry much longer.
They are already notified about any hex/affect that they are under so that takes all the guessing out of it (in the event a survivor cant tell what's going on or how the killer downed in one hit).
Soon they will add a 'totems left' counter on the survivor HUD making any chance of NOED going off near impossible ROFL.
Just wait. It will happen.
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@FireHazard said:
@HawkAyeTheNoo said:
Toxic for running a perk which is readily available in the game, ok.What's interesting, is that just by using certain perks within an organized SWF group can be toxic. In order for a killer to be toxic they have to use ultra rare add-ons maybe even an eboni mori. That equates to 7k-14k BP for a killer to be toxic. Survivors can essentially be toxic for free, adding insta heals are considered Try Hard Toxic.
At the end of the day Killer pays to be toxic.
A good SWF group can be toxic for free.
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Everything created for this game is based around balance. At least that's the intention except . . .
cough Survive With Friends cough . . .
Now I know what you're thinking "A Cry Baby Killer Main" How did I know? Anyone with a decent amount of common sense should understand SWF lacks fairness regarding the way this game is balanced. Now you might want to hold onto something, this could come as quite a shock from a supposed "Killer Main" but SWF should exist. It's good for friends who frequent games together, supposedly good for the Dead By Daylight community . . supposedly. Bottom line it is here to stay. I welcome SWF with open arms. Though there are times I say "O . M . . G . . . Again" and that's fine.
Didn't mean to drag that out, but hope to assume a neutral standing with viewers of this thread as I play Killer and Survivor equally at rank 1. Don't worry rank is meaningless I could be as bad as a rank 20 for all I know.
On topic finally,
fact is that this game is balanced around 1 Killer and 4 'Random' Survivors. Any die hard SWF member wanting to argue this only needs to refer to the list of perks and the growing (note 'growing') amount of perks that a SWF group would find useless. The most recent example is the Aftercare perk. And perhaps a brand spanking new SWF to the game could make use of these kinds of perks as they learn the game, but as mentioned before this common knowledge requires you to have a "decent amount of common sense". If you still don't get it, best move along as you wont have anything of relevance to offer to this thread or you can stay and make a pointless post and the rest of us will have a chuckle.
Onto balance finally,
the idea is that within a SWF group, and only within a SWF group each member is limited to a unique perk and item. It's that simple. The only thing that cannot be balanced is the free flow of information through communication, but SWF has earned that right. They are a special bunch, had only the 4 'Random' Survivors had such technology before being sent into a horrific trial with any hope of surviving the the Killer, the game would be called Survive By Daylight. No Special SWF Unit armed with toolboxes with speed add-ons, sabotage squads 99% every hook using no mither ect. And no 4 man SC, DS, SB, BT . . . whatever combo of perks you can think of efficient SWF running.
The problem unfortunately,
I am not sure how this would be implemented.
P.S. When I was a new killer I would always dodge SWF. Yes, I am ashamed. I see no point in dodging now, it's not a point of 'Get Good' but rather tolerance. I have plenty SWF in my killer games who seem to wreck my face only to fall hard at the end. And other SWF who . . wreck my face. You see SWF isn't OP (Though Unfair To How The Game Was Designed) the ability for SWF to coordinate not only through speech, but through running an 'efficient' perk/item/offering load out does make what SWF are able to accomplish without any effort OP.
One more time,
ANYONE WITH A DECENT AMOUNT OF COMMON SENSE can see I am shooting for fairness and balance. I don't want to nerf Survivors or buff Killers. I don't even want to get rid of SWF. The game is balanced, it's imperfect, but gets fine tuned now and then. Though the balance to SWF isn't made through a few perk tweaks or game play changes that give choice to dodge or DC when certain conditions are unsavory. The fact that SWF can and should be able to play together, under certain conditions across the board would give killers a fighting chance against those Special Ops SWF Units.
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I can understand why, but at the same time cannot see how so many players think dedicated servers are going to do anything to improve the game.
- They are going to cost the developer money increasing incentive to charge for every little thing
- Your connection to the 'dedicated server' can still have issues
- You will blame the 'dedicated servers' instead of the killer for your connection
Nothing gets solved with dedicated servers. The only thing I know we do get with dedicated servers is the maintenance cost the developer will surely address with more types of micro transactions. Not that I would complain, but it's what they will do to compensate.
Sure, dedicated servers are supposedly going to help punish players who DC. They could do that now
Sure, they can be more reliable. In over 300+ hours of game time I have had a handful of rubber band connectivityThey simply do not solve more issues than they will more certainly cause. Just my opinion, but I haven't heard anything to the contrary. Only players desperate for dedicated servers as if that is the key to their issue.
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@Okapi said:
@Daneryn said:
Only issue I see with this is how to correctly implement it? For example what would stop premades from choosing to simply not use the in-game voice coms and just stick to discord where they can continue to share game info privately?Well if they're a 3 man team that refuses to talk to the solo dude well that's their choice. If I'm playing Overwatch and no ones is talking to each other and we happen to face off against a 6-stack that is well that's our choice and we should accept it's our own fault if we loose. We wouldn't complain to Blizzard to balance the game around 6 solos not talking to each other. If Blizzard did that the 6-stacks would only become more powerful.
The same situation that this game is in. Behvaiour balances around 4 solos who don't talk with other which only makes SWF have an easier time. But unlike Overwatch it isn't an equal sized team of solo survivors facing off against a team of SWF it's 4 survivors facing off against one killer. A player who is always a solo and can't talk with anyone. That person is currently getting screwed over by the game right now.
I'm not sure why players mention SWF and their only focus is on voice communication. Voice is only as good as what you make it. If anyone has any experience with in game voice communication with random players it is unorganized, uncooperative and really a bunch of noise. You will have more randoms complaining at their 'team' through the voice communication than anything.
Only SWF who group up purposely with an understanding of one another in their skill, knowledge and role within the game. There is no way adding in game voice balances out anything, all it does is give players an in
the game an option which most will find better to simply keep muted as randoms communicate as their title suggest. A bunch of random blah blah blah.My suggestion for SWF balance has nothing to do with voice, but limiting their ability to abuse in game perks/items/offerings balanced around solo team play and survival. Put balance around random players and give that to organized SWF teams who can abuse that balance and you have what SWF are capable of doing today.
Let's keep bringing up SWF and the obvious game breaking abilities they bring into the game, but I highly doubt anything will be done.
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@Watery said:
TrAiNwReCk said:@Watery said:
I know I’m going to get hate for posting this- but I’m going to anyway.
I really like SWF. It’s fun to play with friends, and though it’s annoying from the killers perspective, it’s fairly easy to do so, and since the game itself has a discord, it’s no wonder people use it. SWF is inevitable. Even without it people will manipulate when they que up in hopes of getting in the same game, there’s no way around it. I understand SWF is super annoying, because as someone who plays Spirit, it can be bothersome. But I learn to work around it. My point is; regardless of what would happen to SWF- even the removal of perks, it would likely create a game design issue- I love solo players to death and respect them, don’t get me wrong- but so many people say that depending upon how many people you que with, you shouldn’t be penalized for it. Think of people who are more, casual, and don’t play the game as much. They probably play with their friends- they should just enjoy the experience.
What I’m trying to say is- I think as of now SWF is fine. There’s nothing much the devs can do without pleasing one group, and annoying one another. As of now, it should just be left alone- and optimization and other gameplay fundamentals should be addressed, such as the issue with speed hacking, gameplay design, and performance, rather than SWF- just bring a mori if you see one, it’s okay, I don’t judge.
No one should be hateful unless hated on by someone else. Two wrongs don't make a right, but everyone knows it makes us feel better. ROFL.
I agree, this thread isn't to remove SWF. Players should have the option to play together. I am 100% with you on this. While SWF once were a lobby to be dodged every time you got them, you get over it, play the darn game and get better at the game. Which makes you better at playing against SWF. Unfortunately, there are those hardcore SWF, not casual SWF that do break the game of any balance leaving killers with absolutely no recourse but to become frustrated, taunted and forced to continue a game that they have no chance at all of feeling like they could or had accomplished anything.
SWF should exist, as you said it was probably inevitable. Though Survivors within a SWF group should be limited to unique perks/items/offings per person as to not be able to abuse a system to a game breaking level. Randomly grouped survivors will never ever have the OP capabilities that those within a knowledgeable organized SWF currently have. Voice communication is only as good as what you do with it, real SWF can make great use out of it. Randoms on a discord, maybe 1-2 of them can be constructive and have a leg up, but there will always be those annoying randoms that voice nothing but annoyance, noise and nothing game related.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and views!
I appreciate the honesty- and frankly, I agree. Not to say that SWF isn’t unbalanced, but it’s also got multiple ways to look at it. : ) Thanks for not throwing a temper tantrum- I’m glad we can discuss this topic as politely and calmly as possible.
You bet. Thanks again for you constructive post! Always nice to get a calm personal opinions out in a thread. Never fun getting attacked by someones first post/reply simply for sharing ones views.
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@Watery said:
I know I’m going to get hate for posting this- but I’m going to anyway.
I really like SWF. It’s fun to play with friends, and though it’s annoying from the killers perspective, it’s fairly easy to do so, and since the game itself has a discord, it’s no wonder people use it. SWF is inevitable. Even without it people will manipulate when they que up in hopes of getting in the same game, there’s no way around it. I understand SWF is super annoying, because as someone who plays Spirit, it can be bothersome. But I learn to work around it. My point is; regardless of what would happen to SWF- even the removal of perks, it would likely create a game design issue- I love solo players to death and respect them, don’t get me wrong- but so many people say that depending upon how many people you que with, you shouldn’t be penalized for it. Think of people who are more, casual, and don’t play the game as much. They probably play with their friends- they should just enjoy the experience.What I’m trying to say is- I think as of now SWF is fine. There’s nothing much the devs can do without pleasing one group, and annoying one another. As of now, it should just be left alone- and optimization and other gameplay fundamentals should be addressed, such as the issue with speed hacking, gameplay design, and performance, rather than SWF- just bring a mori if you see one, it’s okay, I don’t judge.
No one should be hateful unless hated on by someone else. Two wrongs don't make a right, but everyone knows it makes us feel better. ROFL.
I agree, this thread isn't to remove SWF. Players should have the option to play together. I am 100% with you on this. While SWF once were a lobby to be dodged every time you got them, you get over it, play the darn game and get better at the game. Which makes you better at playing against SWF. Unfortunately, there are those hardcore SWF, not casual SWF that do break the game of any balance leaving killers with absolutely no recourse but to become frustrated, taunted and forced to continue a game that they have no chance at all of feeling like they could or had accomplished anything.
SWF should exist, as you said it was probably inevitable. Though Survivors within a SWF group should be limited to unique perks/items/offings per person as to not be able to abuse a system to a game breaking level. Randomly grouped survivors will never ever have the OP capabilities that those within a knowledgeable organized SWF currently have. Voice communication is only as good as what you do with it, real SWF can make great use out of it. Randoms on a discord, maybe 1-2 of them can be constructive and have a leg up, but there will always be those annoying randoms that voice nothing but annoyance, noise and nothing game related.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and views!
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@Freudentrauma said:
@TrAiNwReCk said:
fact is that this game is balanced around 1 Killer and 4 'Random' Survivors.It's designed around 1 Killer vs 4 'random' survivors with altruism and teamwork as only an option. But it's not balanced, because this core design is unbalancable. You either make the killer so strong, that survivor have to be complete teamplayers to escape or you give the balance strength towards the single survivor, so they have still a chance, when they can't rely on teammates. In DbD is currently more balanced to the second approach. I mean, it was onyl meant as a 'fun casual' you play from time to time. That's why even perks like DS exist in the first place or the hatch.
And I personally that's the design approach which hurts killers and balance more, than SWF. The "SWF issue" is just the outcome of this, because they work more likely together they reach the full strength potential of survivors. But four randoms can reach it as well.@TrAiNwReCk said:
Onto balance finally,the idea is that within a SWF group, and only within a SWF group each member is limited to a unique perk and item. It's that simple. The only thing that cannot be balanced is the free flow of information through communication, but SWF has earned that right. They are a special bunch, had only the 4 'Random' Survivors had such technology before being sent into a horrific trial with any hope of surviving the the Killer, the game would be called Survive By Daylight. No Special SWF Unit armed with toolboxes with speed add-ons, sabotage squads 99% every hook using no mither ect. And no 4 man SC, DS, SB, BT . . . whatever combo of perks you can think of efficient SWF running.
Any form of limitation of SWF is a bad idea. It would alienate the playerbase and undercutting their freedom. And keep in mind that the experience of a 2-person-SWF, a 3-person-SWF and a 4-person-SWF is complete different as well. And let's not start talking about playstyles. SWF groups exists with different mentalitties.
Besides that it's technical possible for Randoms to become an efficient SWF group, if they just share a Discord link during the Lobby wait group etc.
It's just SWF is not one big predeterment group or 'problem' in the game. It's onyl problematic in certain situations and combinations. Like your DS example. But this shows just how broken DS is as a perk. Especially the wiggle DS, which is just bad Design.
Actually you can't 100% balance this game. It's core design doesn't make it possible. The onyl thing I see, which can be done is weakening the strong tools survivors can have, so their potential strength is limited. That's stuff Devs did in the past and are planning to do in the future as well. (DS rework e.g.)First off, thanks for the constructive feedback. Players should be able to share their opinions and views of this game without everyone going nuts because what they think is right regardless.
It's designed around 1 Killer vs 4 'random' survivors with altruism and teamwork as only an option. But it's not balanced, because this core design is unbalancable. You either make the killer so strong, that survivor have to be complete teamplayers to escape or you give the balance strength towards the single survivor, so they have still a chance, when they can't rely on teammates. In DbD is currently more balanced to the second approach. I mean, it was onyl meant as a 'fun casual' you play from time to time. That's why even perks like DS exist in the first place or the hatch.
And I personally that's the design approach which hurts killers and balance more, than SWF. The "SWF issue" is just the outcome of this, because they work more likely together they reach the full strength potential of survivors. But four randoms can reach it as well.Balance creates potential, the balance currently in game is balanced around random (unorganized, unscripted, having no knowledge of others intentions or abilities) survivors and a killer. The random team play this game was intended around made survivors as a 'team' much less, so they made perks to improve team potential and perks to increase single survivors ability to survive. You take the intended balance then add unintended voice communication, organization that no group of perks could help randoms attain. Random survivors should have a chance, but the chance given through the current balance gives SWF much more power to abuse those balanced mechanics when you add everything else they can do as a knowledgeable, communicating group. 4 good randoms have all the same tools as a 4 SWF group except voice communication, going into the trial with a plan, a script of whose going to be the runner/saver/gen rusher, and having a load out based around what their plan is. Sure randoms can jump into a discord, I have (I admittedly accepted an invite once within a solo lobby) and it was the most annoying uncoordinated group of voices and gave us maybe a 5% increase to survival "He's near the shack, cow tree, barn" ect. everything else nothing but random players making noise and 95% wasn't even talking about the game.
Any form of limitation of SWF is a bad idea. It would alienate the playerbase and undercutting their freedom. And keep in mind that the experience of a 2-person-SWF, a 3-person-SWF and a 4-person-SWF is complete different as well. And let's not start talking about playstyles. SWF groups exists with different mentalitties.
Besides that it's technical possible for Randoms to become an efficient SWF group, if they just share a Discord link during the Lobby wait group etc.
It's just SWF is not one big predeterment group or 'problem' in the game. It's onyl problematic in certain situations and combinations. Like your DS example. But this shows just how broken DS is as a perk. Especially the wiggle DS, which is just bad Design.
Actually you can't 100% balance this game. It's core design doesn't make it possible. The onyl thing I see, which can be done is weakening the strong tools survivors can have, so their potential strength is limited. That's stuff Devs did in the past and are planning to do in the future as well. (DS rework e.g.)I can see your point, no blanket idea will be a perfect fit for balance. Solo survivors are already alienated by the lack of in game voice communication, knowledge of each others capabilities and script for any planned action within the trial. Most random survivors can muster up within the 60 seconds is stacking offerings. Again, if they really wanted to jump in a discord their communication would be overlapping, yelling. screaming, complaining, not game focused. Just a big annoying mess (muted) lol.
I agree that not all SWF are S tier. Many just want to group and have fun. If that is the case, those grouping to have fun won't care. The S tier SWF are the ones that will have a problem, because they won't be able to break the game balance with their out of game knowledge of one another and voice communication.
I don't feel the game needs much balancing, the developers . . although very very very slow to act on the simplest of balance do try to balance the in game perks and whatnot. SWF is the only game breaking entity that can do what random survivors cannot (as efficiently).
An example, if a solo survivor without any type of aid could abuse game mechanic A, B and C to take up the killers time the whole match (fault of the killer for not breaking off) then the developer would be getting tons of flak for A, B and C. At the moment unless the killer is a potato, no solo survivor can do this, at least not anymore. SWF can do A, B and C because of their before mentioned capabilities as an organized group. And that is why SWF needs to be limited, but the game overall isn't that bad. It was a lot worse with infinite loops, double pallets, instant flashlights ect ect. Only OP thing in this game are what SWF groups can do, not the groups themselves.
Thanks again for your post!
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@Silverbusa said:
Voice can be balanced. You make comms an in-game thing like Overwatch or Last Year. Then when you see survivors stomping killer and you balance for it with the ideas I provided above.I meant you can't balance voice in the sense you can alter it in any way, it is unchangeable. I don't dislike your ideas. Wish we could get feedback from the developer or someone on this topic. Though everyone probably wants feedback on their topic.
Again, thanks for your constructive feedback!
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@Master said:
@wouldntyouliketoknow said:
@e8Lattice said:
Even when you use something as harmless as "Greatly Thicken Dark Mist" - Killer disconnects, lose purple mist darkener -.-If killer disconnects you should retain your offerings. Simple as that.
100000% agree with you, and if a survivor disconnects I wouldn't mind if a killer gets to keep his offering as well... only if survivors get to keep theirs if a killer DC's.
Sick of this bunk.
You forget that if the killer DCs, the survivor keeps his items and only loses his offerings.
However the killer will not only lose the offering, he will also lose his addonsTruth! Survivors think losing an offering on a killer DC is bad. If all 4 survivors decided to DC the killer basically loses (wasted) the offing and add-ons.
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@Arsoul said:
Start increasing the timer for each dodged match.
5 secs for first
15 for second
30
60
10 minsNo idea why this wasn't implemented for anyone 'dodging' killer or survivor. Lets make the first dodge a freebie, in the event you get a terrible ping. Though the timing should greatly increase after that.
5 minutes for second
15 minutes
1 hour
1 day
1 weekAccruing time penalty resets once a month!
Players might think that's crazy, but we want this to stop. Not make it inconvenient.
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Heck yeah. Lobby dodging is pointless. Though the same rule should apply to survivors. No DC because you see that secret offering come up.
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@Silverbusa said:
@TrAiNwReCk said:
@Silverbusa said:
I'm having the same issue with SWF. Worst is the SWF that not only are good and work extremely well together but also taunt the entire match and then when it's over mock you as if there were anything you could do to not be steamrolled.If I can 4K semi-often with a non-SWF group, I think I'm decent at the game. This reflects the original design of the game which had no SWF and was balanced towards random survivors who couldn't communicate with each other.
Obviously, a balance is needed.
First, implement in-game comms. This way you can balance killer versus survivor knowing every round the survivors will be communicating with each other.
Second, the game knows when a match is SWF. Balance towards that as well because while a group of randoms may coordinate some, it's likely SWF will coordinate significantly better on average. To balance this, the no-repeatable perks seems one solution. Another would be making gens/chests/gates take an extra 5-10% longer to repair/open. Just a few ideas. There' are literally hundreds of things they could do to balance SWF.
Haven't had many constructive posts to this thread. Great to have some neutral balance feedback. Those could be some good ideas. I myself don't have the best ideas, but I think the developer trying (if they are) to balance out SWF through perks or other shared in game mechanics it simply won't work. They need to make changes that focus 100% on SWF lobbies. The item/offering/perk limitation to use only unique selections per player within a SWF group would keep well coordinated SWF from abusing solo survivor balanced items/perks/offerings. Wish the devs would at least give some feedback to let us know they're taking things into consideration so these threads don't seem endless and to an extent pointless.
I had a SWF group today. They confirmed they were 4-man (inadvertently). Their perks (11 out of 16) were optimized to escape the killer and rescue friends.
Since they were being toxic ######### and acting as if I were a complete noob, I asked if they thought SWF using comms was balanced. Of course they did. They continued being abusive and I pointed out their perks and how they optimized for their 4-man SWF.
One guy said he would have played his build even solo. And it's probably true. However, the odds of getting 4 people with builds like theirs in a random group is extremely low. Couple their optimized builds with voice comms and the motivation to work as a team and not just save themselves, you get complete in-balance.
I watched one of the devs' streams today and he was answering all kinds of questions but he made it clear there were questions he wouldn't address. I questioned him about SWF balance and of course, he ignored it. The devs don't seem to care, have management telling them to leave it alone so they can attract more players (friends of current players) which makes the company more money, or they believe balancing the game for SWF is just too hard to tackle.
Thanks for sharing your experience. The funny part is even if you 1k, shoot you can even 0k and they will still call you a camper, tunneler ect. It's insane how . . clueless or careless players can be so long as they get what they want.
That's why I was excited to think of this one idea, to limit the abilities SWF had within the game. I truly believe SWF should stay, and it is anyway. They have voice communication that can never be balanced in my opinion. The least the developer could do is balance what SWF are capable of within the load out screen.
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@Silverbusa said:
I'm having the same issue with SWF. Worst is the SWF that not only are good and work extremely well together but also taunt the entire match and then when it's over mock you as if there were anything you could do to not be steamrolled.If I can 4K semi-often with a non-SWF group, I think I'm decent at the game. This reflects the original design of the game which had no SWF and was balanced towards random survivors who couldn't communicate with each other.
Obviously, a balance is needed.
First, implement in-game comms. This way you can balance killer versus survivor knowing every round the survivors will be communicating with each other.
Second, the game knows when a match is SWF. Balance towards that as well because while a group of randoms may coordinate some, it's likely SWF will coordinate significantly better on average. To balance this, the no-repeatable perks seems one solution. Another would be making gens/chests/gates take an extra 5-10% longer to repair/open. Just a few ideas. There' are literally hundreds of things they could do to balance SWF.
Haven't had many constructive posts to this thread. Great to have some neutral balance feedback. Those could be some good ideas. I myself don't have the best ideas, but I think the developer trying (if they are) to balance out SWF through perks or other shared in game mechanics it simply won't work. They need to make changes that focus 100% on SWF lobbies. The item/offering/perk limitation to use only unique selections per player within a SWF group would keep well coordinated SWF from abusing solo survivor balanced items/perks/offerings. Wish the devs would at least give some feedback to let us know they're taking things into consideration so these threads don't seem endless and to an extent pointless.
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I miss spoke. Rank has a balance, but it's not at all the balance I am referring to in my thread. The ranking system needs to be categorized solo/SWF as there are many SWF with say Rank 1 & 2 with a Rank 8 & 12. If players can't Rank up as a solo survivor then they are probably not doing themselves any favors. Then you have those preaching Rank doesn't mean anything . .
1 You haven't Ranked up because you are not good enough to score high enough within the current emblem system.
or
2 You purposely drop to get easier games.
Both imply you are not as good as higher ranked players.
Being Rank 1 Killer/Survivor doesn't make you a Dbd god, but it doesn't put you in line with a lesser rank.
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@TrAiNwReCk said:
@JanTheMan said:
Honestly, just add baseline Kindred and a way to tell who's getting chased (like the entity legs around the obsession) and I'd be happy, as a solo.In my experience, the game feels as it should solo. You hope to find someone to heal you. You hope a survivor isn't bringing the killer your way. You hope to get decent survivors in your trial. It's not near as heart racing as it was when I was new, but you still have a tad bit anxiety hoping your survivors do what they can to help and not mess you over.
That's part of the chaos that makes survivor fun, but when you have these knowledgeable SWF groups they don't feel any of that. The only thing they feel is salt if and when they don't dominate a game. Even if you 1k, you are still a noob camper as that is the only way you could have gotten said 1k. It's sad. If only they would admit how easy they have it.
Not claiming all SWF are that efficient, but the fact that the balance is tipped off the scales in favor of SWF groups who have strong knowledge of the game.
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@JanTheMan said:
Honestly, just add baseline Kindred and a way to tell who's getting chased (like the entity legs around the obsession) and I'd be happy, as a solo.In my experience, the game feels as it should solo. You hope to find someone to heal you. You hope a survivor isn't bringing the killer your way. You hope to get decent survivors in your trial. It's not near as heart racing as it was when I was new, but you still have a tad bit anxiety hoping your survivors do what they can to help and not mess you over.
That's part of the chaos that makes survivor fun, but when you have these knowledgeable SWF groups they don't feel any of that. The only thing they feel is salt if and when they don't dominate a game. Even if you 1k, you are still a noob camper as that is the only way you could have gotten said 1k. It's sad. If only they would admit how easy they have it.
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@SIlentCetra said:
@Lillika said:
I just don't like it when my rank 10 is consistently matched vs swf groups that contain lvl 2 and 3's in them.You know, I thought it was just me getting ranked with absurdly high ranks in comparison to myself. It makes it very frustrating to play sometimes.
About 1 hour ago I had a match as a survivor. The Killer was Rank 2, I was Rank 1, 2 survivors were Rank 7 and the last one was Rank 8. I was solo, no idea how the 3 lower ranks ended up in that game.
Matchmaking might be a little messed up.
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If I recall, the person who created the Jeepers Creepers character was involved in some legal trouble involving children . . I think.
Anyway, since that said person would receive compensation for their addition into DbD players would have a big problem with supporting someone with a dark background.
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@thesuicidefox said:
@mistressdiana said:
because we may have voice coms but its way easier to see it on the screen.The usual conversation...
in chase "I just ran past Ruin"
"Ok where?"
"It's over here"
"Where is over here?"
"IDK by some trees or something"
SMHOR
"Killer is chasing me"
"Okay I'm on a gen"
not looking behind them, just running forward constantly "He is still on me"
"HOLY #########!"
"What?"
"I just got grabbed off the gen. [BAD WORD] YOU SAID HE WAS CHASING YOU!"OR
in basement
"He left me, you can come save now"
"Okay I'm coming"
steps in trap
"Oh BTW he put a trap on the stairs"No doubt communication needs to be adequate to the situation to be a strong force against a killer, but I am not complaining about communication.
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@DexyIV said:
No. This was an idea proposed before and it's a bad one.Look at Steam profiles friend. You have tools to avoid SWF. Use them.
Avoiding SWF might seem as a viable option, but it causes other game issues down the line. Que times and what not. Something needs to be done to balance the 'group' mechanic that SWF have. Nothing changed outside of SWF will ever 'fix' SWF affect on the game play balance.
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@Master said:
@Aven_Fallen said:
Thank you for addressing the SWF-Topic. Now that someone finally did this, I guess we can find a solution.The solution is implementing ingame voicecomms and balancing the game around comm-coordinated survivors
You can't 'balance' a game that was not intended to have voice communication and has not evolved in any way to account for it.
Want to 'balance' the game around SWF make the killer 2x - 3x - 4x stronger in certain areas. You see, that does not solve the problem, only makes the killer stronger.
Instead they should limit what SWF can do to stack the odds in their favor outside of voice communication.
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@tt_ivi_99 said:
People dont seem to realize that SWF is so "Broken" because It has "a good rank system". Those people that play SWF are solo players that know every trick in the game and just got tired of playing with people who dont have te same lvl of skill as them.The only way to balance the game is by fixing the rank system so that everyone stays at the rank they deserve and then buff all killers to be viable at those ranks.
Rank has nothing to do with balance . . Rank is a separate issue for those who care about it.
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@mistressdiana said:
You should probably specify that the problem is an ORGANIZED SWF because speaking from someone who frequently plays SWF (even if its just one other person and up to a full group) we consistently have to run perks you say are useless to SWF such as Aftercare, because we may have voice coms but its way easier to see it on the screen. Yes, the information of where ruin is is useful, and yes the information of who has the killer's attention is useful, but most of the time an unorganized SWF can get lost looking for that ruin, and can also frequently sandbag if they communicate the wrong area (speaking from experience).Also they already implemented the hidden loadout until the game ends so this is already addressing the problem.
While it's a long read, the fact you can't read what I specified as the problem with SWF highlights the problem with Pro SWF Players who can't see beyond their own 'power' to essentially make it 4x harder on a Killer with no such advantages.
The fact SWF can have mirrored load outs with the purpose to abuse the load outs designed around unorganized players. It is truly sad I have to explain this when it's so obvious.
4 players in a SWF group use DS . . All 4 know they have DS as they are SWF . . . With this knowledge they know body blocking the killer to let non obsession survivors get to the % to hit their DS would be viable. And they can do this 4x.
Well 4 randoms can have 4 DS strikes. Yes, but 4 true randoms won't know the other 3 have DS and won't be able to abuse that knowledge.
That is 1 of many examples for combinations SWF can take full advantage of and was not what any of the perks or items were designed around. They were designed to give individual players better chances of surviving. Group knowledge completely changes the balance.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
Thank you for addressing the SWF-Topic. Now that someone finally did this, I guess we can find a solution.Your feedback is invaluable.
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Many will say 2+ Blink Nurse is for noobs. And others will say no add-on Nurse is the best way to use her. I took the 2 Blink max to heart. I didn't want to be seen as a noob, even when I was brand new playing her. Use an extra blink add-on and the other add-on to counter act the negative of whichever you use.
1st blink for distance, always try to be accurate on your 2nd blink, if they are quick to change direction the 3rd is usually more than enough to adjust. It takes practice, a lot of it. There will be plenty of salt if you 4k or 0k.
Detection perks are the way to go in my opinion, though there are some gimmick builds that are fun when they work.
When you get good with her at 2 blinks her Blink range add-ons are a beast. Her quicker movement speed gives next to no chance to change direction if you land your 2nd blink well enough. Don't give up!
Hope this helps.
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@BO0ON said:
So I know and understand that the developers are working hard to fix the long queue times for survivors, but I still face an issue that I feel is still unfair to us. I main and only play survivor so I see it happen too many times to feel its a coincident.
-When in a lobby the killer sees what the 4 players bring and decide not to play up against a group that has toolbox's or med kits, whatever the case may be and so they decide to leave to find another lobby that best suits their comfortability.-
It does not help the fact that I (and I'm sure many others) have waited soo long to find a game that is just going to be false and have us look forward to another 30+ min wait to potentially have the same thing happen again.So I ask, Is something being done about the killers seeing our items?
I understand you are looking at this from a wait time perspective. Having to wait for a long period of time only to play the game you paid for isn't fun. Being a survivor main, might try playing killer to see why some or many killers might dodge such load outs? On the other hand, at least if the killer dodges a lobby full of items the survivors get to keep them. A killer bringing in an ebony mori followed by very rare and ultra rare items might waste them for nothing when survivors DC when they see the 'secret' offering show up for the killer, as a killer doesn't get to keep anything if things go south fast.
Again I understand this isn't the perspective you are taking, but I can understand the frustration. Killers shouldn't dodge items in general. See items bring FD. On the other hand a 'good' SWF fully loaded can be a stress filled game as playing killer usually is compared to survivor. I play survivor to enjoy DbD lol. Killer is not without it's advantages, but it comes at a price. Your mental stability :-)
Really though, I hope they find a solution for your lobby times and DC rage in general. Killers and Survivors should be on the same team when fighting for fairness. Good luck!
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Very cool. I payed without Ruin forever before I broke down for the dlc. Playing with Ruin can really be a game changer. Hope you enjoy it!
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Shouldn't mess with streamers or youtubers in general if it only affects SWF not solo?
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Always thought a chucky killer would be great. I really like your take on the overall design. I see the hooking part of your idea difficult as it changes a major aspect of the game.
There is MM white mask staring at you, or chuckys crazed doll yell as he jumps out and attempts to stab you. seeing his red hair run crazy fast around short boxes would be crazy freaky I think. Good thoughts!
Maybe when chucky needs to pick the survivor up he turns into charles lee ray as a human for the height so he can hook :-D
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@TrAiNwReCk said:
Doubtful they have any stats on games played without a DC vs games played with a DC. I would imagine that % being fairly high, much higher than the developer might think. This is a touchy subject for sure and how to handle it . . it's an imperfect system. Might take an imperfect change creating player backlash, but once implemented hopefully it'll be the change we need.Still if someone DC's more than 2 times within . . 30 minutes (less or more) they should receive an accumulative ban 1-2-4-8 + hours for each occurrence. Maybe that's a bad idea, but there are many others out there.
Too add. What's the problem with disconnecting? It's losing blood points, pips and event points. Maybe instead of harsh punishment they should give all event points possible to the player(s) and a portion of potentially lost blood points by the DC.
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Doubtful they have any stats on games played without a DC vs games played with a DC. I would imagine that % being fairly high, much higher than the developer might think. This is a touchy subject for sure and how to handle it . . it's an imperfect system. Might take an imperfect change creating player backlash, but once implemented hopefully it'll be the change we need.
Still if someone DC's more than 2 times within . . 30 minutes (less or more) they should receive an accumulative ban 1-2-4-8 + hours for each occurrence. Maybe that's a bad idea, but there are many others out there.
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@No_Cluie_Louis said:
@TrAiNwReCk said:
@No_Cluie_Louis said:
Like i don't mean to sound too complainy, but i've been playing more survivor than i usually would for the event, and ######### is up with the toxicity on killers side. Like out of the 8 games i've played, every single one has ended in a death, and though some of them were fair enough, 2 were face camps, and 1 was a lagswitcher, and most of the others i was tunnelled all game. Sure i tried hiding, but it's difficult when the killers on you the moment you're unhooked.I even had to start running DS just to last longer than 5 minutes. Like seriously, why are killers to toxic in the eventFor the reasons you probably want to play survivor for the event. Maybe they feel forced to play killer because of long wait times and what not. If you are forced to play something you don't want, some might see that as an excuse to be overly campy and try hard.
I play survivor for this event as the event points are very much in the survivors favor. Though I don't blame any killer that wants to camp/tunnel/be a pain. This event has brought out the worst in killers/survivors alike.
I really doubt at rank 1 killer, they are being forced to play something they don't want, and if they main survivor, they probably are rank 1 where there is very little wait time
I have sense changed my mindset on playing survivor (rank 1) I played 8 or so games in a row with 3 different killers, but with the same type of game play and perks/strategy making it impossible to escape a trial, which is the only way to get those bonus +25 event points as survivor.
Killers running Whispers, Hex Ruin, BBQ and a random 4th and slugging the 3rd to make sure the 4th doesn't get hatch makes it impossible seemingly to escape.
I won't bash killers or survivors for anything, but the event is encouraging tough game play. I admit to swapping to killer (rank 1) as I can hardly get 8 event points as survivor anymore. Usually 1-2 gens get done before the game ends. So many survivors are playing so stealthy, so focused on surviving with the lamp they don't play the objective near as much, slowing the game down, which only helps the killer.
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@KoolaidInMyCup said:
@TrAiNwReCk said:
No doubt this event in particular has really messed up the flow of core game play. Many matches feel totally different in play style as most eyes are on the prize, those sweet event points.Things will return to normal once the event ends I am sure.
Its really throwing off my games at rank 1 cause im used to getting people at rank 1 that are focused on obj and the games feel more smooth but with the event going on I get kids who dont even touch gens or totems the whole match.
How the hell did these kids get to rank 1.
I completely understand. It's like survivors enter the game with the only intention is to survive as escaping with the lamp give +25 points. Unfortunately, that means players are more . . "scared" to get caught. And killers running whispers, BBQ, Hex: Ruin, and the 4th is usually different. Must I mention the slug of the 3rd to make sure the 4th does not have a chance to escape.
Admittedly I am focusing on killer for the event now as the past 8 or so games were mirror images with 3 different killers, but same game play and strategy. I am not going to bash killers, but that type of play gets very old and killer was the only way to change it up.
Rank 1 doesn't seem to have an affect on their mindset, everyone is so focused on staying alive they are playing more stealthy than ever, but all that does is slow the game down even more which is always in the killers favor.
Good luck on future games. If you aren't against it I would give killer a shot and take a break from survivor. It Helps!
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I started playing DbD on the Xbox One. You can customize the controls, but the wiggle is stuck on the analog stick unless they have changed it. I agree, and it does a number on your hand/wrist after a few games.
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I think the balance in mind for Pop Goes The Weasel is as follows. You give up time to get to a gen, survivors have to put in 25% more time + normal regression. I understand in practice it can be frustrating to implement, but I suppose that's the way they intended it to be.
Would be nice if Developers might weigh in as to why they wouldn't consider such changes. At least it might make things more clear as to there reasoning.
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No doubt this event in particular has really messed up the flow of core game play. Many matches feel totally different in play style as most eyes are on the prize, those sweet event points.
Things will return to normal once the event ends I am sure.
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I've faced really good Legion Killers and the not so good Legion Killers. Has been a mixed bag for me. Regardless, after about the 4th game in a row with Legion I am ready for a different Killer to go up against. In my experience playing against the Legion feels more repetitive than against other killers for whatever reason.
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It's easy to snowball with leather face if facing over altruistic players, but if your first survivor knows how to loop and your perks don't aid in the chase it can be painful.
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@UwU said:
The only issue with this is you can take the lamp from three different directions so unless you trapped all directions of it, they would still be able to get the lamp and possibly not step in the trap, and you won't have enough traps to put three on each one.I never noticed that. I thought you always had to be lined up in front of it. Guess I have never tried from the sides.
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I could be wrong, but it seems SWF groups can really booger up logical rank matching within a lobby. Outside of a 4-man group. Obviously a 4 man can be whatever levels are within.
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Agreed. Simple fix that would make a big difference . . until the first mori maybe lol. Really, I think secret offerings should be an unknown secret!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k95DSQbQmJY