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@Hunefer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/965065#Comment_965065
But the place for the key for a given trap is selected at the moment the trap is put onto the survivor, right? Then you would still have to change this mechanic if you wanted to make it impossible for the first box to work.
Anyway, I dont think it would be too hard to make this change.
The only thing you'd really need to change is to make it so that the key is randomly placed when you search the first box instead of when you put the Trap on. I could be mistaken because I don't know programming, but that does not sound difficult to change to me.
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@Jallybwan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/963216#Comment_963216
I disagree. Perhaps the vast majority of the community (devs included) believe that, but isn't that what feedback and suggestions are for? I think that if we want to see a change implemented, we should tell the devs about it. It's really easy to say "why aren't they listening to us?!" but obviously they can't listen if we're not talking.
I think it was worth keeping for the sole reason that some people found old Freddy fun, and spent many hours learning to play him well as a result.
I think the response you'll get is "this isn't worth implementing when the vast majority will not care".
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@Galklife said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/964791#Comment_964791
"share thoughts" let me type that for 2hours because someone dont want to find it by himself xd
long story short
if you use her stealth as if youre invisible its obvious you fail, if you dont use whispers and start crouch after seeing survivors ofc they will notice you, ppl learned how easy and thoughtless it is on GF
its not like surv has 25% chance to take trap off, key is located in box when game starts so its not like boxes are RNG based, thats why its impossible to make so you cant find key in 1st box because that would mean they have to rework how boxes works xd
if youre trying to use her dash during literally W key chase its ofc you wont get value (its not demo), you can use her dash around loops xd (so you can avoid getting pallet looped), about her dash not counting as basic attack its even better because you can use STBFL and use ambush on obsession
so instead of bitching how sth is weak maybe learn how to use its power to the fullest? youre literally like thousands of kids crying about killer being weak (because they played PTB for 2hours)
"its not like surv has 25% chance to take trap off, key is located in box when game starts so its not like boxes are RNG based, thats why its impossible to make so you cant find key in 1st box because that would mean they have to rework how boxes works xd"
Assuming I am understanding you correctly, this is incorrect. The key for a given Trap is not selected until you put the Trap on someone's head. In practice, a Survivor does have a 25% chance of picking the right box and just getting the Trap off.
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@SambaSaw said:
But we are not talking about a fair killer. We are talking about slugger, tunneler, camper. All of those things are a waste of time for survivors and makes them do mistakes. Maybe not true for best red ranks but yeah.
(My comment got lost after I edited it so this is a shorter version.)
I'm talking about in general with zero regard for the emblem system.
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@SambaSaw said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/964762#Comment_964762
Right I agree with that but what I was taking about is not that killer can easily get adept achievement but that they can 4k every game which is not necessarily a merciless. If survivors need to escape balanced thing would be for a killer to get a 4k and not merciless bc survivors don't need to 2pip and killers do.
"they can 4k every game"
Again, that's really not true, though. Maybe with the best Killers it's pooooossible with some luck, but once you start going to not top tier Killers, that ain't really happening unless you are deliberately staying in low ranks somehow.
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@SambaSaw said:
They won't change that because a decent killer can 4k almost every single game. Cuz slugging, camping and tunneling. Ranking system right now isn't really great but at least it keeps most of the killers from being toxic.
That really is not true. Even if it was, Survivors only have to escape to get their Adept achievements, which is not exactly balanced compared to Killer Adepts
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@Sunbreaker7 said:
This second chance claim is nonesense. Yes, survivors have plenty of chances trying to escape
- Gens
- Exit hatch
- Exit hatch with a key
- Exit gate
However, giving the rare situation that the exit gates spawn close to each other is like not giving a chance to escape at all, so why even bother having the exit gates like this. Everyone who has ever been in this situation knows you have 0% chance to escape and the only way to escape is if the killer wants to let you escape, which is exactly what some have stated here they tend to do, becuase even they know it's unfair situation for the survivor.
Go ahead, make a test where the survivor tries to win 2 close exit gate situation against a killer who runs between the two gates to check on the survivor trying to open the gate. I guarantee you, 10/10 times the killer will always catch the survivor, there is no mind game, there is no chance.
I've lost the Survivor before, and not on purpose.
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Too late, someone already beat you to it.
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@TheTexasRattle said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/964466#Comment_964466
Maybe for a SWF but most sole survivors aren’t able to coordinate this.
I don't think you need to be particularly great at the game to understand when the Killer is patrolling two super close gates. If a teammate can't figure that out, that's kinda on them, not on the game.
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@TheTexasRattle said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/964448#Comment_964448
That was just an example. T3 skilled Myres where the exit gates are too close is a huge advantage for a killer who has failed their primary objective.
Not really? If there are multiple Survivors, they can just take turns opening the Gate and outmaneuvering the Killer until one of the Gates opens up. Not even Nurse or Hag can be in two places at once, so at least one Gate will always be unprotected to some degree.
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@TheTexasRattle said:
What about exit gates where survivors have repaired 5 generators & then get no chance to escape due to the gates being too close together with a killer running NOED? This isn’t just about the last survivor who has failed to repair.
Just find and cleanse NOED, then. If the Killer is camping the gates, the Totem should be safe to cleanse. If the Killer is trying to defend the Totem, you should be able to open one of the Gates.
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People are allowed to play how they wish, Killer or Survivor.
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I'm okay with increasing the average distance between the two gates, but always making them spawn on opposite ends is a bit much IMO.
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I think Keys can afford to have a little more use than just at the very end of the game as far as opening the Hatch. Maybe making it so only one person can use the Hatch per key (Hatch closes up again after someone opens it with a Key and jumps through) and having variable times needed to open the Hatch depending on the rarity of the Key.
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Sometimes I like to bring in a Cypress Mori to see if anyone DCs. :P
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@ppo8820 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/964083#Comment_964083
Exactly. I see any sig of slippery meat and I’m rage quitting.
If I think someone is even considering using Slippery Meat, I'm reporting them for hacking my phone.
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Slippery Meat is stronger than original Ebony Mori and original MoM and original DS and original Machine Gun combo put together. If you disagree, you are obviously objectively wrong.
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@Acromio said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/964043#Comment_964043
Just you wait! My dad is MaCote!
My dad is Nintendo Miyamoto, and he can get your dad fired from video games.
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I've had a few people threaten to report me because they didn't understand how Mad Grit functioned.
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I think the room for abuse for such a system is simply too high.
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@gantes said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/963288#Comment_963288
I mean, I'm absolutely sure they'll never buff anything else about her ever without reducing variance on the traps, and I'd prefer her stealth to be less useless but ok.
I disagree. I think there are multiple things about her that can be reasonably buffed without her having to be nerfed. Stealth speed, ambushing, Traps' consistency, add-ons. I think all of those things can be buffed without making it less likely that you need to search all the boxes.
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@gantes said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/963269#Comment_963269
The idea is not removing it, it's tampering with the chances so that boxes 2 or 3 are more likely than 4 (and 1 doesn't happen). Reading my comment again I didn't make myself clear enough, sorry.
I am of the opinion that the lethality of the RBTs is in a pretty good spot, and I am not in favor of anything that would end up making the Traps less lethal.
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@gantes said:
I think they're afraid of making her stronger because when the survivors get unlucky the RBTs delay them for AGES. I legit think her traps should be less random with less edge cases (both removing first try and removing last try) so they could buff her stealth and ambush because that part of her kit is pretty lackluster imo.
I don't like the idea of removing the last box as a Key option because then the death traps go from "rarely kill" (which is reasonable) to "never kill," which kinda defeats the point of there being a Saw character to begin with.
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If it was worth keeping in the game, it would not have been re-worked in the first place.
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@Nhekii said:
most of pigs add-ons
This. If I could only choose one, though, it'd be Amanda's Secret.
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@Sleephartha said:
Meh. Some of you get it. Some of you don't. I'm not going to beat my head against a wall. If you want to have fun pointing out my gameplay errors, have fun. Turning to run and bumping into the killer isn't a decision, it's ######### that happens. I'm sure none of you expert critics out there ever run into a tree or get stuck on a corner etc. when you get hit. Again, not the point, but again... its what you want to focus on because you don't want to admit the point. Whatever.
I've admitted the error of not taking the hit to get BT. Someone else mentioned just running a different direction... armchair QB isn't a good position for this game. Killer would have followed and I'd be downed. My decision was to run straight for the gate assuming I'd get teammates taking hits (which they did). The problem (ASIDE FROM NOT TAKING A BT HIT) is that the gates weren't opened or have anyone waiting to open them. When I saw that, I still ran to the gate to open them since I thought that was best for the team and maybe I could make it.
One last thing and I'm done with this thread. You critics are just focused on scoring your forum points. And maybe some of you genuinely believe that there is no reason to stay at the 99 doors to avoid this situation. Fair enough. But seriously... focus on the big picture. The game is messy. People make heat-of-the-moment errors all game long. What we do have under our control is strategic and tactical decisions. Critical decisions that affect the gameplay in big ways. Should we work the gen, go for the save, find the Hex totem, heal this guy or go save that guy... etc. You need to get the strategic stuff right to allow for more messiness and errors in the skill based, heat of the moment stuff, yet still win. Basically, if the team plays smart and makes the right decisions they can make more heat-of-the-moment mistakes and do well.
My belief is that the strategic choice to 99 the doors is best if you stay near the door to open them to avoid someone being chased... whether they have made errors or not to get them to that spot.... having to pause to open them and get caught. I'm done.
I think you're the one who does not get it. You talk about the problem aside from the BT hit, but the problem WAS the BT hit. 99ing the gates was not the culprit; you not taking the BT hit was. You simply refuse to acknowledge that.
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@DBDfan12 said:
why do we need DC bans? people will just go AFK instead . if someone wants to DC just let them
AFKing is also a reportable offense under Unsportsmanlike Conduct, so that's not gonna work either. :P
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@Sleephartha said:
lol... of course you're more eager to critique my gameplay than admit the fng point is correct.
My build is my build for my own reasons that game. The build is irrelevant. The point is the doors should have been already open or there should have been someone by them waiting to open them for people being chased trying to escape. They could open the door and run behind the person needing protection.
Bloodwarden would not be an issue. The fact that I could have paused to let him hit me while BT was active is a fair critique. Thanks. But again, not the point. If the door was opened correctly I would have escaped regardless. Isn't that what this is about? Doing the most things you can to help your team win? Are you actually going to argue that it made more sense to stand at the top of the stairs and watch... vs stand at the door and pop it when needed and then take a hit for the injured survivor at the door? Just take survivor perks out of the picture and assume that's my 2nd hook... I get pulled off and run to the door while being chased... I shouldn't have to veer off to open the damn thing myself. Period.
Oh and for the record, I escaped eventually.
The problem is that if people are correctly pointing out that things turning out the way they did were not due to the doors only being 99'd, then your point is not correct, is it?
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IMO, the best times to do it are when Survivors are clearly hawking around the hook or once the Exit Gates are powered.
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I mean, as long as you don't break the rules, go nuts.
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@ChiTenshi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/960473#Comment_960473
So much so that we ended up talking outdated perk language (which I might create a discussion on).
I mean, you did bring up the STBFL example even though the way the two currently interact is intentional.
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@ChiTenshi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/960455#Comment_960455
I think the whole discussion got derailed. Continuous misunderstanding of points, and everyone trying to prove each other wrong.
?
As far as I can tell, the points are pretty clearly laid out.
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@ChiTenshi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/960361#Comment_960361
Regardless, that simply punishes the player for not the right reason.
Another example is STBFL doesn’t apply on Legion’s Power despite the Perk simply saying hit.
There are several examples that leave some Perks in a questionable state of will they work with my Power or will they punish me for trying.
That is a different argument.
Regarding STBFL, that is the perk simply containing outdated language, not the perk interacting incorrectly with a power. Much like how Kindred for a while contained the line "trumps all stealth abilities" despite Myers being immune to it.
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Stock up on all the Pig's not-trash add-ons.
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@ChiTenshi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/960349#Comment_960349
How? That just punishes players that don’t know better.
I mean, you can only really make that mistake once, no?
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@slipttees said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/960165#Comment_960165
Nothing here for survivors is well regarded. I'm used to it.
A pro-Survivor suggestion is not inherently a bad one. This just is not a good idea to me.
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@ChiTenshi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/960336#Comment_960336
Example, if NOED is active when you Lunge Hit with Pig, it is revealed to the Survivors but doesn't down them.
That just seems like an issue with notifications, not with how NOED actually interacts with powers.
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@ChiTenshi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/960204#Comment_960204
Certain perks like NOED half apply on their 'power' hits. Either a perk or status should 100% like react to an M1 or power hit, there shouldn't be a mixed middle ground which confuses players and makes certain combos obsolete.
Examples of powers that interact with NOED in the way you are referring to?
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@ChiTenshi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/960161#Comment_960161
So you agree that Legion's Frenzy and Pig's Lunge should be tweaked to work 100% like powers then and not be left in an unclear state?
What about them is left in an unclear state?
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@slipttees said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/960145#Comment_960145
SWF, Flashligh, Key = Killer close lobby! Muauaahu
That doesn't make the suggestion a good one IMO.
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@ChiTenshi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/959993#Comment_959993
None of the powers are the same, but where do we draw the line? Why do exceptions exist? And why are several inconsistencies and flaws caused by this allowed to exist?
If the line is drawn at Legion, then why hasn't she been buffed to compensate and left it such a negatively, questionable state.
We draw the line at "functioning differently from a basic M1 attack." So EW3 Myers, basically.
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I have fun when I am trying my hardest.
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@ChiTenshi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/959811#Comment_959811
So like Legion's Frenzy which applies a Deep Wound Status...
Legion's Frenzy has no lunge, cannot naturally put someone into the dying state, and initiates a huge end recovery if it misses or hits someone in DW. It is absolutely not the same.
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@ChiTenshi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/959732#Comment_959732
True, but that should be said for some other Killers (Ghost-face, Michael Myers, etc)
I currently don't agree with the pick-and-choose situation of what's classed as a basic attack, and I don't agree with some of the harmful side-effects of said changes (.e.g. NOED is revealed on Pig Charge but doesn't down the Survivor).
Myers is a bit of a tricky one since the lunge range changes based on his current tier, but nothing about Ghostface's attack changes with his power. What changes is the status condition applied to a Survivor.
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@NMCKE said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/953553#Comment_953553
I'm not done with everything, will @ you when I finish.
I couldn't finish this because of a stupid forum bug, this happened to me twice.
Increase crouch speed to 100% - 100% miiiight be a bit too much? I'm down for increasing crouch speed, but maybe to, like, 96% or so. Maybe I am wrong and 100% is okay, though. Since the numbers are just placeholders, I'll say that I am fine with increasing crouch movement speed a bit.
I don't know exactly how much we should buff Amanda's crouch speed; all I know is that it needs a movement speed buff because it takes forever to set up for an Ambush.
The main reason why 100% comes in mind is because it's not faster than the survivor's running speed, so you can't chase a survivor using Ambush only. To be sure what to buff her movement speed to, we will need to test some things on the PTB.
Auto-grab occupied survivors while ambushing - I actually think it is okay to have to uncrouch to grab someone. It gives the Pig the choice of either going for the ambush or going for the grab but not both. As long as it is not better to uncrouch just to hit someone idle period, I don't think we need to do something like this.
This is where I disagree, because uncrouching allows you to do both already. You can attempt to grab someone, and if it fails, you get a hit anyways.
Why would I surprise a survivor by Ambushing them when uncrouching gives me the chance to grab someone? Ambushing isn't worth it, you always want to uncrouch when surprising a survivor, and that's the problem — uncrouching is simply better than Ambushing in every way in terms of surprising survivors.
Lion sound moved to end of charge - Thumbs up from me.
That's great, and it's the same reasoning for "Uncrouching vs Ambushing" because uncrouching is quieter than using Ambush. At least the delay in the "Lion Sound" can potentially get you a hit on a survivor with an Exhaustion Perk.
Passive/Active RBT states - Ehhhh, can't say I approve of this. Unless I am misunderstanding this, to me, this just reads like a glorified "increase the death timer by 30 seconds compared to how it is now," which I can't get behind. If you reduce the passive timer down to 30 seconds, though, then this kinda just becomes identical to how RBTs function now as far as timers. All you are really doing, from my point of view, is just rearranging when the timer is counting down and when it is idle. Could you elaborate on how your idea is not simply just "RBTs effectively have a timer of 180 seconds?" Or, I guess to put it into less of a number talk, how is this idea differentiate RBT death timers from how they currently function Then maybe I can see what I am misunderstanding.
Actually, I think you understand everything, but not considering a few key factors.
Long story short, if you don't take the RBT seriously, you're risking getting yourself killed because you will have less time to remove the RBT when it becomes active (which can be as little as 2 minutes). However, if you take the RBT seriously or you didn't get the chance to take the RBT seriously (Hooked, Downed, or in a chase), you will be rewarded with more time to search Jigsaw Boxes.
I know, I know, if the survivor takes the RBT seriously and tries to get it off ASAP, they get 3 minutes to remove the RBT. However, keep in mind that RBT are supposed to stall the survivors and are only supposed to be lethal when they don't take the RBT seriously. I think these changes work well with the theme of Amanda Young, and the core of what Jigsaw does.
The survivors have a choice to use the passive timer for whatever they want, but that comes with a consequence.
EGC timer slowed by 50% while someone has an RBT - I actually think only slowing the timer still has the potential to put the Survivor in an unwinnable situation. I think you need to pause the timer instead to make this a safe thing to do (which, mind you, I am a strong advocte of).
Recently, I did some testing with the RBT and EGC, and usually, survivors with an active RBT who didn't start on Jigsaw Boxes will almost always die to the EGC. The timer didn't slow down to give them a fair chance.
Therefore, make RBT prevent survivors from leaving through the Exit Gates, but slowing the EGC by 50% should allow more counterplay. Besides, survivors already 99% the Exit Gates, and if someone messes up, they have 4 minutes to remove the RBT and escape.
I don't like pausing the EGC because there will be situations where a survivor will get trapped at 1% left on the EGC. Then, we have a stalemate, if the trapped survivor attempts to remove the RBT, they will get sacrificed on the spot as soon as they remove the RBT, so they won't remove the RBT at all. The killer can find the survivor, but that's going to take F.O.R.E.V.E.R.
At that point, the EGC is not doing its job by ending the game.
Increase the time search for Boxes by 1/2/3/4 seconds - I think 7 extra seconds can be worrisome (granted, numbers are placeholders, as you said). Currently, the two Gear add-ons raise the search time to 17ish seconds, whereas this can raise it up to 19. Maybe this would be fine with the increased timer, but as I am not a fan of that atm, I am not sure how I feel about this. Maybe if you just stuck with 3 and 2 (resulting in 5 seconds, only EVER so slightly worse than current Bag + Crate), it would be safe.
I think this is all fair since survivors are given plenty of time to remove the RBT, and if they don't take it seriously, they will likely die to the RBT. Through, RNG is always a factor in a survivor's death, if someone doesn't take the RBT seriously with these add-ons, it's not GG. Plus, don't forget about the generator requirement to make the RBT active once the passive timer expires. If a generator isn't completed, survivors who don't take the RBT seriously will survive anyways.
Reduce passive timer by 10/15/20/25 seconds - This hinges on my understanding of the passive/active system being correct, but I don't think any of them are worth using, not even together. Raising the total time to 180 seconds makes these not do anything meaningful. I know the numbers are placeholders, but I can't judge these add-ons without the numbers.
Basically, this gives the trapped survivor less time to make use of the passive timer. Remember, the passive timer is supposed to give survivors who want to get rid of the RBT, more time to do so before the RBT pressures them. Think of the passive timer as a reward for the survivors who treat the RBT seriously.
Stacking both add-ons will give the trapped survivor a 15 second passive timer. This effectively reduces the reward for treating the RBT seriously, but shouldn't be lethal if the trapped survivor plays their cards right.
Counterclock-wise Skill Checks - I don't think these would be worth using. Doc at least screws up the skill checks in other ways to make CCW skill checks more annoying, but I think in a vacuum, just mixing in CCW skill checks with regular ones isn't going to accomplish much against good Survivors.
Well, it's an add-on, so survivors won't always expect Amanda to run it, and if it's not that good, we could add a mini Huntress Lullaby to the Jigsaw Boxes since they aren't affected by Huntress Lullaby in the first place.
RBTs inflicting status effects - I don't like them as they currently are, and they seem no different here, so I don't like them here either.
Eh, it doesn't feel impactful because we aren't the ones experiencing the effects.
Shutting off Jigsaw Box Auras after passive timer runs out - This is an interesting one. I don't really like the passive/active system, but this seems pretty cool to me.
Like I said, the passive timer rewards survivors who want to treat their RBT seriously and punish those who don't want to treat their RBT seriously.
This add-on amplifies this effect to punish survivors who don't take their RBT seriously, but if you have good memory, this add-on doesn't matter.
When a Survivor removes an RBT, regain one - Not sure how I feel about effectively infinite RBTs with no strings attached. I think you would have to reduce the starting inventory as a downside.
I would be fine with that, how many do you think we should remove?
Silence vegitation/breathing while crouched - Noooot sure this is worth an add-on? Particularly a very rare add-on? Could be mistaken on this one.
You missed the second part of this add-on:
"(Very Rare) While crouched, your breathing and the noises made by moving vegetation is silenced.
When a survivor searches a Jigsaw Box, that Jigsaw Box will display a yellow aura."
RBT activation causes scream + 45 sec Oblivious - Ehhhh, this kinda just promotes tunneling the Trapped Survivor and runs counterproductive to the goal of RBTs (stalling), which is my problem with current add-ons like Slow-Release Toxin and Face Mask.
If the survivor doesn't know if the killer is coming to them, how can they rule out that it's safe to search a Jigsaw Box?
This can cause survivors to be paranoid and waste more of their time. If they don't take risks or use context clues, it could end up getting them killed but if you decide to go after them, the timer simply stops.
don't know exactly how much we should buff Amanda's crouch speed; all I know is that it needs a movement speed buff because it takes forever to set up for an Ambush.
The main reason why 100% comes in mind is because it's not faster than the survivor's running speed, so you can't chase a survivor using Ambush only. To be sure what to buff her movement speed to, we will need to test some things on the PTB.
Fair. For all I know, 100% could totally be fine. PTB testing would be the best way to figure that one out, yes.
This is where I disagree, because uncrouching allows you to do both already. You can attempt to grab someone, and if it fails, you get a hit anyways.
Why would I surprise a survivor by Ambushing them when uncrouching gives me the chance to grab someone? Ambushing isn't worth it, you always want to uncrouch when surprising a survivor, and that's the problem — uncrouching is simply better than Ambushing in every way in terms of surprising survivors.
I guess the way I see it, by moving the lion roar to the end, you're kinda buffing the surprise capabilities of the ambush to make it stronger than just uncrouching and attacking. So I was kinda thinking "you ambush if you want the easier hit and you uncrouch if you want to go for the grab". But you make a fair point about just being able to have your cake and eat it by just uncrouching since a failed grab is probably just a hit anyways. I guess when you look at it like that, there isn't really anything wrong with ambushing always being the correct decision if the Survivor hasn't caught on to your presence, since the alternative would still be that ambushing is never the correct decision, which is stupid. Alright, I'm on board with this idea now.
Actually, I think you understand everything, but not considering a few key factors.
Long story short, if you don't take the RBT seriously, you're risking getting yourself killed because you will have less time to remove the RBT when it becomes active (which can be as little as 2 minutes). However, if you take the RBT seriously or you didn't get the chance to take the RBT seriously (Hooked, Downed, or in a chase), you will be rewarded with more time to search Jigsaw Boxes.
I know, I know, if the survivor takes the RBT seriously and tries to get it off ASAP, they get 3 minutes to remove the RBT. However, keep in mind that RBT are supposed to stall the survivors and are only supposed to be lethal when they don't take the RBT seriously. I think these changes work well with the theme of Amanda Young, and the core of what Jigsaw does.
The survivors have a choice to use the passive timer for whatever they want, but that comes with a consequence.
I know that numbers are not finalized, but let's go with the 60 second passive timer and 120 second active timer. Assume we're not using any of the add-ons that reduce the passive timer.
We can probably categorize Survivors into 3 groups: Good, Average, Bad
The bad Survivor would probably do as you say and not take the RBT seriously, letting the passive timer run down while they do whatever until the active timer starts running down. This only gives them 2 minutes to do box searching, which is basically the current RBT + Tampered Timer.
The average Survivor would likely start hammering out boxes on the first chance they get. This gives them the solid 3 minutes to get their Trap off, which is worse than the current RBT.
The good Survivor would probably spend 30 seconds doing whatever they can do from wherever they are (heal, start up a nearby gen, maybe search a chest or do a totem), and then from there, they would start to hammer out the boxes. This gives them the same amount of time as the current RBT, except they also got a free grace period to do whatever they want. This also makes it worse than the current RBT.
Currently, I am off the opinion that Reverse Bear Traps as they are now suffer from consistency issues. When they work, they are solid time wasters. When they don't, your power is neutered that much more. With that in mind, I would argue that this change at best does not fix the issues (at least, what I feel are issues) with the current Reverse Bear Traps and at worse simply makes them worse against non-potatos/non-greedy players.
Recently, I did some testing with the RBT and EGC, and usually, survivors with an active RBT who didn't start on Jigsaw Boxes will almost always die to the EGC. The timer didn't slow down to give them a fair chance.
Therefore, make RBT prevent survivors from leaving through the Exit Gates, but slowing the EGC by 50% should allow more counterplay. Besides, survivors already 99% the Exit Gates, and if someone messes up, they have 4 minutes to remove the RBT and escape.
I don't like pausing the EGC because there will be situations where a survivor will get trapped at 1% left on the EGC. Then, we have a stalemate, if the trapped survivor attempts to remove the RBT, they will get sacrificed on the spot as soon as they remove the RBT, so they won't remove the RBT at all. The killer can find the survivor, but that's going to take F.O.R.E.V.E.R.
At that point, the EGC is not doing its job by ending the game.
The way I see it, if you just hardcore tunnel the Trapped Survivor while the timer is counting down, even while slowed down, you can force the Survivor into a completely unescapable position (sure, they might have enough time to do boxes, but then they won't have enough time to make it to the gate), which I don't really like. You can argue that they are in an unescapable position with the paused EGC timer still because the Killer simply won't let them go, but you could MAYBE argue that if the Trapped Survivor manages to shake off the Killer somehow, they could potentially then find the time to do the boxes without having to worry about the EGC timer. IMO, the safest way to go about it without promoting opportunity for abuse on the Killer's end is to simply make it so the timer can still go active once all the gens are done (which, I guess in the context of your idea, would be to make it so the RBTs automatically become active once the passive timer runs out) and to pause the EGC timer. That way, there's still a timer counting down to their demise, but the trapped Survivor does not have to worry about a second timer that they can't do anything about.
I think this is all fair since survivors are given plenty of time to remove the RBT, and if they don't take it seriously, they will likely die to the RBT. Through, RNG is always a factor in a survivor's death, if someone doesn't take the RBT seriously with these add-ons, it's not GG. Plus, don't forget about the generator requirement to make the RBT active once the passive timer expires. If a generator isn't completed, survivors who don't take the RBT seriously will survive anyways.
I think my concern goes a bit beyond simply spending more time trying to get the trap off. It's not just an additional 7 seconds per box to get the Trap off; it's an additional 7 second per box just standing around being open to being spotted by the Pig if you are using the strongest add-ons. If at any point the trapped Survivor gets off the Box, they have to start the search on a Box from scratch. And if the Pig approaches, they have to either move away and suffer an additional penalty searching or just take a hit from the Pig. An additional 7 seconds means the Pig has 19 seconds per box to interrupt them for even a second. Just one single success doing so can throw off the Survivor considerably if they aren't lucky with getting the Trap off. This is already doable currently with Bag of Gears and Crate of Gears (which is why I'm okay with your 2 and 3 second add-ons), but my worry is that the additional 2-ish (technically just a pinch less) per box compared to those two add-ons can prove to be problematic. Granted, with the 3-minutes total your RBT idea has, maybe the concern is mitigated, but it's hard for me to be okay with that when I have issues with the passive/active idea as presented as well. Though of course, it is entirely possible that I could be off-base with this and that the extra seconds ends up being fine.
Basically, this gives the trapped survivor less time to make use of the passive timer. Remember, the passive timer is supposed to give survivors who want to get rid of the RBT, more time to do so before the RBT pressures them. Think of the passive timer as a reward for the survivors who treat the RBT seriously.
Stacking both add-ons will give the trapped survivor a 15 second passive timer. This effectively reduces the reward for treating the RBT seriously, but shouldn't be lethal if the trapped survivor plays their cards right.
Here's the thing: Unless the current RBT timer starts up before the Survivor is off the hook, Survivors wearing RBTs already are under not a lot of pressure if they don't wait to start doing boxes. Your passive/active timer with those numbers reduces that pressure even further. So all these add-ons are doing are adding back the pressure that was basically taken away from the Traps in the first place. And even if you use the two strongest ones, the total minimum amount of time you are giving the Survivors is still higher than the time a Survivor would currently have with just Tampered Timer, an add-on that already kinda does nothing unless someone actually DIES to the RBT. Considering that no one reasonable would put off doing Boxes if they see the passive timer draining like a mofo, the end result for the two strongest add-ons is still weaker than one current add-on.
I think the problem with all this is that your intent is supposed to be that you are giving Survivors the chance to figure out how much risk they are willing to play with, but not only are you minimizing the pressure of consequences to people who choose to play it safe compared to current RBTs, but you are giving more risk for people to safely play with before the pressure of consequences become on-par with current RBTs. I do not think that the RBTs need to be made safer compared to how they currently are, but that is what is happening in practice.
Well, it's an add-on, so survivors won't always expect Amanda to run it, and if it's not that good, we could add a mini Huntress Lullaby to the Jigsaw Boxes since they aren't affected by Huntress Lullaby in the first place.
I personally have a dislike for add-ons that effectively function as worse versions of existing perks (ex. almost every current Mangled add-on that exists). Personally, I'd rather just allow Huntress Lullaby to affect boxes (since it currently does not, to my understanding) and just have the add-ons do something completely different (preferably something not Skill-Check related). This is more personal preference than anything, to be fair.
Eh, it doesn't feel impactful because we aren't the ones experiencing the effects.
I think it's not that simple. The thing about this series of add-ons is that they do nothing at all to hinder the Survivor while they search boxes. They are only relevant when the Pig is actively hounding them. Mangled is arguably an exception, but that kinda goes back to what I said before about add-ons being worse versions of existing perks. If the Pig does not actively harass these Survivors while they have Traps on, the add-ons do nothing at all because once the Traps are off, they can just go about their business as usual. If the Pig DOES actively go after them to take advantage of the status conditions, however, then we have a different problem where the Pig is having to tunnel the trapped Survivors to make use of those add-ons. This is bad because the point of the RBTs is to stall for time and slow down gen progression, and if the Pig is chasing the people with the Traps, the Pig is reaping none of the stall benefit from said Traps. It's basically putting the Pig in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation.
I would be fine with that, how many do you think we should remove?
I would personally say no more than 2.
You missed the second part of this add-on:
"(Very Rare) While crouched, your breathing and the noises made by moving vegetation is silenced.
When a survivor searches a Jigsaw Box, that Jigsaw Box will display a yellow aura."
I did indeed miss the second part. My apologies. My concern with the second part is that the Pig can now accurately track which boxes a Survivor has already checked. If three boxes are done and the Trap is still on, the Pig now knows for certain that they can simply defend the last box like all hell and make sure the Trapped Survivor can never get the Trap off. Is this necessarily strategically sound? Probably not. But I worry this would invite trollish/griefy gameplay tactics that doesn't really have an answer to it. Granted, this is already possible with the fundamental design of RBTs through sheer dumb luck, but I'm not sure how I feel about increasing the efficiency of such a tactic.
If the survivor doesn't know if the killer is coming to them, how can they rule out that it's safe to search a Jigsaw Box?
This can cause survivors to be paranoid and waste more of their time. If they don't take risks or use context clues, it could end up getting them killed but if you decide to go after them, the timer simply stops.
Well, the Survivor kinda already has that going on with the Pig crouching to them, so the Survivors by default always have to worry at least somewhat about being snuck up on due to no Terror Radius. What this add-on does beyond giving away the Survivor's immediate location is give the Pig an opportunity to not have to crouch to potentially catch that Survivor by surprise. But as is the case with the status condition add-ons, that is only really relevant when the Pig is actively trying to take advantage of the add-on and effectively tunneling the Survivor, which runs counterproductive to the goal of the Reverse Bear Traps.
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I'm not close. Eventually stopped caring about it.
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@KingOfGhost said:
In most case it could be but :
1) We don't know if they gonna buff the range from his base kit shock
2) We know the new addons and they took away the exhaustion and make the addons that give range to you shock less effect.
3)The new ability has a way too much cooldown for the game. Yes, i know it gives one full madness but it can be counted with a locker.
4) All those things don't help doc in gameplay and only make him easier to counter.
I believe one of the devs on here eventually confirmed that base kit shock range would be buffed slightly, but the range add-ons would be nerfed.
@YaiPa said:
They removed his insta grab, which was his only good thing.
In exchange, he now does not need to switch between Treatment Mode and Punishment Mode, so he can shock to deny pallet/vault and then M1 more efficiently.
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I definitely think this seems like a buff.
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I will certainly respond to this when I get the chance (which may not be until tomorrow), but rest assured that I have read your response in full.