Is M1 considered basic attack?
even with 1 hit ghostface, frenzy legion?
even with 1 hit ghostface, frenzy legion?
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Not with legion anymore.
M1 is a basic attack except for Legion Frenzy and Pig Charge. I don't know why those 2 are exceptions, but I don't approve of them being exceptions.
Because they are in their power
True, but that should be said for some other Killers (Ghost-face, Michael Myers, etc)
I currently don't agree with the pick-and-choose situation of what's classed as a basic attack, and I don't agree with some of the harmful side-effects of said changes (.e.g. NOED is revealed on Pig Charge but doesn't down the Survivor).
At least Pig can use STBFL
The way I think about it is Pig/Legion circumstances are M1 hits that fundamentally change the way the M1 works. In Pig's case, it's a super lunge coming out of stealth, and in Legion's case the entire animation and setup is different. Myers T3 he does get a longer lunge, but it's still fundamentally his normal M1, and Ghostface can only attack via a standard M1, marked or not.
Granted, this doesn't mean I like the fact dash attacks and frenzy stabs aren't considered standard hits, but it does make some sense. To use another example, Demo's shred lunge isn't considered an M1, despite the fact it's not an instadown...pretty comparable to Pig, just trade stealth and control for speed.
Myers is a bit of a tricky one since the lunge range changes based on his current tier, but nothing about Ghostface's attack changes with his power. What changes is the status condition applied to a Survivor.
So like Legion's Frenzy which applies a Deep Wound Status...
Legion's Frenzy has no lunge, cannot naturally put someone into the dying state, and initiates a huge end recovery if it misses or hits someone in DW. It is absolutely not the same.
None of the powers are the same, but where do we draw the line? Why do exceptions exist? And why are several inconsistencies and flaws caused by this allowed to exist?
If the line is drawn at Legion, then why hasn't she been buffed to compensate and left it such a negatively, questionable state.
We draw the line at "functioning differently from a basic M1 attack." So EW3 Myers, basically.
So you agree that Legion's Frenzy and Pig's Lunge should be tweaked to work 100% like powers then and not be left in an unclear state?
What about them is left in an unclear state?
Certain perks like NOED half apply on their 'power' hits. Either a perk or status should 100% like react to an M1 or power hit, there shouldn't be a mixed middle ground which confuses players and makes certain combos obsolete.
Examples of powers that interact with NOED in the way you are referring to?
The perks showing really only applies to noed and that's understandable. Survivors know noed is up the moment someone gets hit by anything. Nothing about that is unclear. Legions ff hits apply things and have a cooldown on him. Pig is part of a dash attack. Oni is his ability to just swap weapons lol. Chainsaws are pretty obvious and so is huntress with her hatchets. So far i see nothing unclear about anything. If anything the most unclear thing is oni using his normal swing while in oni mode but since he is I his power thats justifiable.
To your last sentence that should be a thing. It means that some perks are better on some killers and some perks are worse on some killers. Adds variety
Example, if NOED is active when you Lunge Hit with Pig, it is revealed to the Survivors but doesn't down them.
Sounds fair to me. If noed is up just use your m1
That just seems like an issue with notifications, not with how NOED actually interacts with powers.
How? That just punishes players that don’t know better.
I mean, you can only really make that mistake once, no?
All players need to know is that your m1 downs instantly.
Regardless, that simply punishes the player for not the right reason.
Another example is STBFL doesn’t apply on Legion’s Power despite the Perk simply saying hit.
There are several examples that leave some Perks in a questionable state of will they work with my Power or will they punish me for trying.
Increased vault and movement speed in frenzy and buffed several addons.
Look, it either acts like an M1 where you are informed of NOED being in-game and get downed, or vice versa. Or maybe, the perk description could be better fitting than leaving a very important feature of the perk out.
Why make it unclear in use and application?
That is a different argument.
Regarding STBFL, that is the perk simply containing outdated language, not the perk interacting incorrectly with a power. Much like how Kindred for a while contained the line "trumps all stealth abilities" despite Myers being immune to it.
Good to know, did you read the rest of the changes though?
I think the whole discussion got derailed. Continuous misunderstanding of points, and everyone trying to prove each other wrong.
?
As far as I can tell, the points are pretty clearly laid out.
So much so that we ended up talking outdated perk language (which I might create a discussion on).
I mean, you did bring up the STBFL example even though the way the two currently interact is intentional.
Yes. Reduced Mending times and nerfed blade addons.
While that may be an argument for insufficient counterbalancing, that doesn't change the fact that an attempt was made.
There hasn't been another full patch since these changes and according to the devs his winrate has gone up since the change making it an overall buff.
Depending on how often the extra Frenzy speed leads to additional hits this makes sense as more hits means more stall and if it's greater than 25% more chain hits then you are getting more stall now than ever.
Considering I've seen people get chain hits greater than 4 via Survivors immediately mending before your Frenzy is done, giving you enough time to hit them again. I'd absolutely buy that this is the case.
And then that just leaves the perk synergy reduction, which sucks sure but isn't THAT crippling.
He loses:
Sloppy - Biggest loss, but can be substituted by the buffed pin addons.
STBFL - Overrated combo. His power gives him the first hit making the perks effect redundant outside of grouped injured Survivors
Remember Me - I've never seen anyone use this perk on Legion and it's not hard to stack anyways
Dark Devotion - It's DW synergy was removed anyways and it's hardly a meta perk for him
I’m all for attempted changes to help fix a Killer, but if they become garbage then something should be done to alleviate the issue.
Can I see the link where BHVR state Legion’s “win-rate” (whatever classes as winning) has gone up? Because I doubt his “win-rate” has gone up in high ranks.
Also about the changes:
One hit ghostface is an effect applied to the survivor, not to the killer
It was in a comment not a dedicated post that just said that the Legions winrate has gone up without stating additional information. Finding it would be impractical, there are a lot of Legion posts out there and I don't remember which one it was. They definitely didn't specify ranks tho.
In any case there is no way set of changes like this would kill him. At worst it would be a slight hindrance, but since his only serious losses were sloppy and 3 seconds of mending per hit, both of which can be made up with by getting several more hits than he otherwise could get, this isn't something that would make him garbage.
I'm far more annoyed about the implications it has for borrowed time than for Legion, since THAT perk did NOT get counterbalanced by the change.