SpringMyTrap
SpringMyTrap
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@Bad_Medicine said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3949991#Comment_3949991
As I said, regardless of map, they can still just hook in an area with lockers (there will pretty much ALWAYS be a door within handy distance for them). Darkness Revealed has a fairly long aura read (8 seconds) with a relatively short cooldown (30 seconds). I play orbital/snipe Huntress and keep it in my build at all times. I usually hate indoor maps, but if I go to RPD, I am eating good, because it is a relatively small map and the locker placement usually means I get an aura read on everyone every time I proc Darkness, and if I don't see them I know they're probably in Courtyard or Lobby.
With the speed of Springtrap's teleport (it's 3 seconds, not 5) and his lengthy basekit undetectable (and the Glitchtraps I've played against like to use Badge to extend it to 30 seconds) they just hook, immediately leave, give it a couple of seconds, and then proc Darkness and enter a Security Door. You don't even get a chance to reach the Survivor to pull them most of the time. You get aura read on your way there and Glitchtrap shows up to ambush before you can even even reach the hook to be forced into a trade. It's an incredibly scummy tactic but with his quiet footsteps and the right set-up, it works really well, which is almost certainly why I've encountered it multiple times.
So yes, I'm saying do exactly those things, only it doesn't require luck when you intentionally hook someone in a place with a bunch of lockers so that anyone coming to save them or otherwise near the hook is going to get read for you to show up in plenty of time to get an easy down.
Addendum: If they don't catch someone coming for a save with Darkness, then they just spam teleport to the door nearest the Hook or otherwise proxy camp it with their Undetectable until Darkness comes off of cooldown, and with Badge, they are Undetectable that entire time. Then they just rinse and repeat with the aura read to look for returning Survivors with an ambush teleport.
again, this relies on a very specific timing to work and is just a worse proxy camping with extra steps.
i mean, anything works vs bad players because they'll fall for it but at this point why bother? if anyone thinks they need to play like this, they're only making things worse or memeing
you have not convinced me.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
I feel their desire here is for stealth killers to not really fully sneak up on people but instead close the distance. Every stealth killer has a "tell" that they are approaching or are otherwise near you. Their stealth is enough to get them close, but rarely enough to get grabs and such. I feel the amount of danger a killer is, the louder they make their "tell". For example. Myers (discounting the tombstone) and ghostie are really low threat, so their "tell" is fairly quiet. However, Springtrap has teleport, a ranged attack, can instantly put people onto his shoulder, has an anti-mindgame aura with the axe, and so on. Considering he's a LOT more of a threat "as-is" without the stealth, they make that stealth "tell" a lot louder. Again, it's simply to close the distance vs a terror radius, but not enough to actually jumpscare or get grabs.
pretty much, especially with springtrap who has a ranged attack. you arent really meant to get a grab, you are meant to get within the range of the attack to get a chance for a hit which springtrap can do really well because of the axe trajectory.
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@Willish said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3949886#Comment_3949886
But that's the thing, sometimes you're not supposed to win.. Neither side should get a free kill/win, just because. We're playing a asymmetric game..
are you not supposed to win because you are worse than your opponent or because the game is blatantly rigged? and if it is the latter, why even ever change anything because "its okay you are not supposed to win this time"
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@Valimure said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3949089#Comment_3949089
So then why does every other mobile killer have it?
because they can attack out of their power without an awkward cooldown.
billy, demo and wesker collide
blight, chucky, oni and nurse get a restricted m1-like special attack.
ghoul gets a 2 second delay before being able to attack. the only comparable killer is Vecna who gets crippling 2.75 second cooldown and you can see how bad it is to use in chase, except Vecna has two other chase abilities to spare.
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@Bad_Medicine said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3949273#Comment_3949273
I have gone against several Glitchtraps using Undetectable/Oblivious builds + Darkness Revealed with an RPD offering. I know map offerings aren't a guarantee anymore, but a lot of times we end up at RPD, and even if we don't? Darkness Revealed has a pretty long aura read with a relatively short cooldown. They just hook someone close to a locker, leave, proc Darkness Revealed, walk into a Security Door, and they can see the auras of Survivors passing by lockers to come to the hook for the save.
that makes no sense. i dont see the logistics or viability of that.
so you are saying they:
1. hook2. LEAVE through the door
3. Sit OUTSIDE of another door and near locker
4. Proc darkness revealed
5. Actually get lucky to reveal you with the perk because RPD has plenty of places with locker aura deadzones like main hall
6. travel back through the door back to the hook (which takes about 5 seconds)
I dont want to repeat myself, but what stops you from just leaving the hook after pulling the survivor? And while we're at it, what stops you from NOT unhooking immediately and just taking 30-40 seconds to do gens and then just go unhook and leave immediately?
Worst, absolute wost case scenario you just 1 for 1 which is not ideal but it just resets the hook timer, giving your team more time on gens.
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@Munky said:
So why are most killers in the 50-60% killrate range? (btw 60% is what BHVR aims for). I don't think many ppl understand the games balance. If lets say half of killers stop tunneling today, then next week the stats would have dropped below 40-50% killrate.
If BHVR somehow completely nullifies tunneling, they would need a massive rework in the games balance, otherwise nobody would be playing killer anymore. A killer is supposed to feel oppressive, right now I rarely ever feel in power as killer. As solo survivor though, it only take me 1 weekend to get to IRRI1 and escape the majority of my matches (59% currently in this reset). As killer I have to sweat my a** of for every single pip I get. According to my hours played on each side, I would be a survivor main at this point, barely but I am… I've been playing A LOT MORE survivor in the last 2 years due to it being much more chill and in control of my progress.
Many players here should be forced to play killer for 100 hours straight, so their opinion can be adjusted towards reality. A content creator who plays 12 hours per day and is incredibly good at one specific killer should not be the measuring standard (which I believe many people here are looking at). The vast majority of players are still very average, both on survivor and killer side.
conclusion: The stats are as they are, which includes tunneling. Game balance on average therefor does not allow non-tunneling, unless killer wants to lose a lot.
good thing is that if it really affects many people, bhvr will make up in changes.
bad thing is that it's going to be another band-aid +10 seconds or gens or regression autopilot perks buff so something that would just take away skill from playing killer and just give more time to play chases because bhvr dont want to make anything else viable.
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thatd be nice, i dont like how a licensed map is locked behind a map that also has 2 other original maps.
they made a different map for nostromo even though greenville square proved they dont have to put aesthetically different map from the same realm in a different map offering.
but when they do it, they just need to make it so you dont get map offerings directly from bloodweb. there should be some kind of a "map offering token" that is a single rare item related to maps in the bloodweb pool that you buy and which lets you pick the map offering you want.
if you quick / bulk spend it just gets randomized.
this way we dont get clutter and people have proper control of what map they want to go to
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@terumisan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3949848#Comment_3949848
well the pip system had problems since at the upper end you often saw the same survivors and just led to burnout even more than now
i feel like it just locked you into a bracket for yhe most part
well yeah, that was the point of it and unavoidable consequence of having low amount of good players.
this is exactly what WILL happen very soon by the way from what I've heard devs say, maybe with even bigger consistency bc instead of the pip system, we'll have MMR system directly track our performance in the match which I assume are things like chase time, successful chases, etc.
and going back to the topic of the thread, in reality of such system you kinda have to tunnel on a lot of killers. or camp/slug in some specific cases.
this wouldnt be needed if devs stuck to the "balance by desire to win" system that was objectively bad but made matches better for a lot of people on a sole basis it let them control how hard they'll have their games in general if they adjust their overall playstyle.
I dont think a lot of such people will enjoy losing every game and being stuck in even deeper MMR hell because the system will not let them go because they are playing well enough to keep up, but not well enough to win (get more than 2 kills).
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@terumisan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3949835#Comment_3949835
wasn't that the pip system?
yeah and that worked much better than SBMM.
the game however in past like 4-5 years was designed around SBMM mindset which is basically "i dont care how good you are, all that matters is if you play for kills/escapes or you dont".
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you can reliably and consistently drop pallets after he picks them with mage hand
and fly no longer works for outplaying people on vaults because you spend more time being unable to however back and forth and they just react vault. and the CD addon was murdered.
all that got changed is that he became way easier to play vs clueless survivors cuz now he requires more specialized knowledge to shut down and his no effort/skill impact from power was tremendously boosted.
yeah, not surprised why people think he got better.
I'd really rather have all these changes except sphere and artifacts being cancelled.
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if we speak about it in vacuum, make it so that survivor is unable to die on hook unless killer got 5 stages prior to that, like basekit StB anytime a survivor with 0 stages unhooks a survivor on second stage which is disabled once 5 hooks were accomplished.
Achieving that would disable the mechanic and all other antitunnelling perks that used to be disabled in endgame - DS,OTR in particular.
Ive seen way too many times a killer that genuinely spread hooks got hit by DS in midgame nonetheless (because survivors see the killer is playing fair and keeping up so they just abuse their perks to force trigger them) and lost the match over this so having it addressed at the price of guaranteeing killer cannot get a kill until 6th hook would be fair.
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@Crowman said:
Consistent way to win is not the same as 100% win rate.
The fact is that leaving survivors alive only hurts the killer, because spreading hook states does not slow down the speed in which gens get done. The only way to slow down gens without perks is by incapacitating survivors either by hooking them, leaving them in dying state, or eliminating them from the game.
Of the three stated methods, only one of them is permanent for that match. The order of impact goes:
Kill a Survivor → Hook a survivor → Slug
If you want killers to spread hooks, then spreading hooks needs to be more impactful than killing a survivor.
exactly.
people claim how much they care about health of the game when in reality they just care about nerfing killers.
if they actually just wanted the game to be healthier, they'd advocate for it to be changed in such a way people can play optimally without causing miserable experience for everyone but this is the moment when masks go off. They just want to get rid of optimal strategies for killers, not make them healthier.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3949676#Comment_3949676
I think that would be the case if tunneling was required which, honestly, I don't think it is. Generally speaking there isn't much being stacked against killers right now, there hasn't been for quite some time, so I don't think compensation will be needed.
Killer role is progressively losing skill expression in macro
This I completely agree with. And honestly, I blame the sheer amount of anti-loop / chase-oriented killers added to the game in quick succession for that.
We've had way too many characters who are extremely oppressive in chases and that is their only power. If their chases fail, the killer just falls apart. These characters are very unlikely to drop chase, because they are way too focused on the 1v1 aspect, instead of the 1v4.
again, I said that like 5 times, tunnelling and other strategies are not requires when more than half of your games are against survivors way below your skill level if you're just decently skilled.
new matchmaking would eliminate that because instead of balancing by winrate it will balance by in-match performance which is way more accurate at measuring skill which would lead to these strategies being required.
I think I am not going to be heard in this thread.
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play however you want as long as you have fun.
I personally just play for as much bloodpoints as it's reasonable to get from the match without losing it.
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pretty sure theres a regression speed cap of like 150% so they cant even stack fully
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@crogers271 said:
The BT protection works like Mettle of Man and doesn't cause deep wound.
I've always thought the 'no collision' is a fine idea, but BHVR would think it doesn't fit the game.
After what they've done on AFK, @BorisDDAA very well might be spot on.
@AshFayd 's idea is pretty interesting as a possibility they might consider.
so the killer is extra encouraged to tunnel because there's not even a factor of minor slowdown that's inflicted on the survivor? and how do you plan addressing bodyblocking with BT because this is one of the ways survivors have been abusing this feature against killers that did not tunnel.
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@Rogue11 said:
Maps that weren't tiny empty dead zones with no fog with occasional pallets that are so weak they're only useful for dying under to hope your teammate can use for a save.
yeah, we can have either safe tiles or low amount of them.
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@ShanoaLegendaryPlz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3949263#Comment_3949263
Ive also got xeno to p100 and still play him over springtrap, i just mean how springtrap doesnt have to deal with the lower viewpoiint, the doors are easier to just go in pick one come out, and then u get such a long undetectable status to just get the drop on people just for using the door. On xeno i often feel like walking to a generator rather than going in the tunnel ecause they wont know my exact direction im coming from unless they can see me, and sometimes it feels really out of the way and long to get in and travel with just to get to the other side. And i don't know about occasional double turrets but im at a stage where everyone places double turrets lol. Im just saying springtraps utility park feels faster and easier to use with more benefits. Ibdo occasionally use the tunnels to find someone with the wider footstep detection addon. Hes just got allot more going against him with the exception of fire rate on his m2. And so far everyones afraid to use the doors anyway until ur against swat teams
I think it's just a matter of preference and, yeah, people not having doors figured out yet.
realistically, you should be dealing with a bit slower 1/3 gens because you have perma WH on you and then survivors doing insta map rotations while youre busy hooking, not with people basically ignoring these mechanics
it's like if xenomorph had a bug on the release that made survivors permanently slowed down after taking a turret so they just avoided them, i bet xeno would feel like powercreep as well
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@DeBecker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3949350#Comment_3949350
anyone whos half decent at this game easily beats most players theyre matched against. And this shouldnt be possible. kaneki is awful to go against cause of several issues that have been discussed hundreds of times by now. stop pretending otherwise against common sense.
and they beat most players they're matched against because…? oh yeah, right, matchmaking that doesnt measure skill properly.
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3949674#Comment_3949674
well im bad at the game so can you list a few things you need to win as killers a tier and below
hope survivors play badly and at least dont abuse strategies to shut you down one-way i/e actually let you play out tiles with your power instead of playing for distance.
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@DeBecker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3949353#Comment_3949353
Your first sentence is already false. Noone ever could proove this right.
and that would be why? ig it's easier to just dismiss what people said and hide your head in the sand
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3949489#Comment_3949489
To be honest, I don't think any of those are equivalent to tunneling. Tunneling literally prevents you from playing the game, you are just targeted in quick succession until you die.
And it really does not matter how much skill it takes to do, what matters is whether or not they are a problem for the game. Blight's so called techs, for instance, couldn't be performed by every single Blight player out there, but they were still unintended and unfair exploits that had to be removed. Tunneling is just a strategy, but one that causes far too much harm to the game.
I think SBMM biggest flaw is the fact that it exists, tbh.
yeah, sure, thats why Im saying there should be a viable alternative. Again, it's just not about tunnelling, it's about multiple core pressure strategies you can't just repeatedly "anti" without compensation.
And of course, the compensation obviously cannot be just another "+10 seconds to gens". It should be another strategy made viable or created to be viable. Killer role is progressively losing skill expression in macro and is forced into playing inefficiently and making up for that with unreasonable skill performance in chases. This is not good.
Or, as I said, we can just do the same for survivors. If we want the game to be about chases and low maintenance macro, make it about chases and low maintenance macro. It's hypocritical to limit killers everywhere and let survivors keep all the low effort ways they can cheese wins in games anytime killer is not better enough to 2 tap.
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@Mr_K said:
I mean, he's not in good shape at least. How he still moves is a bit of a miracle.
well afton is a brilliant engineer and a scientist, he made first ever functional exoskeleton and life support system that runs on dying, of course he can move
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3949444#Comment_3949444
No, I am saying they don't have equivalent strategies.
That is why I personally don't think it would by hypocritical to, in the current state of the game, address problematic strategies in the killer side without discussing survivors.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3949458#Comment_3949458
To be fair, the MMR / SBMM system has been so flawed since it was added to the game that it barely even matters what the system is or isn't tracking.
splitting gens is their equivalent strategy.
having perks that rival or surpass killer perks is their equivalent strategy.
shift+w / predrop is their equivalent strategy.
the list can go on and on but I can name a plenty of things that take way less skill than tunnelling.
I dont think the game would be unbalanced for blight-like high tiers like ghoul for example, But Im sure as hell that playing on anyone who cant beat aforementioned things will take disproportionate amount of skill than it takes utilizing that.
The SBMM's flaw was in the fundamental design - only kills escapes matter. They explicitly said they intend it to give you easier matches if you play "fair".
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@Fenril said:
Can someone please explain me how "removing the strategic part of the game as a survivor" a QOL change?
It's obvious that seeing a fellow survivor hiding in lockers the whole match is a pain in the a** (and should be punishable), but still… I'm moving around, trying to locate gens, trying to avoid tri-gen without using one slot for Deja Vu, and I'm AFK? I'm leaving tons of scratch marks, moving from quadrant to quadrant, and I'm AFK? If I deem necessary to hide in a locker to force the Killer to look for me in that specific area, I'm AFK? No, seriously? SERIOUSLY? Do you guys even know what AFK means?
Dude… I'm getting crows over my head by simply looking around to avoid tri-gens. Deja Vu is great, but I'm definitely not using it in every match. I get crows even when I'm trying to locate a fellow survivor (that's in a chase) to try and help him/her, to try flashlight saves, flashbang saves, protection hits, etc.
Seriously… what if a Killer tunnels someone so hard that he/her manages to take that person out of the game and there's still 4 gens left, and he's chasing someone else… how are we supposed to win that match or even have high hopes in finding the hatch if we have crows all over our heads? Some matches are like that, unfortunately. If that wasn't the case, there would be no need for a mmr revamp (which has been announced already, if I'm not mistaken).
Seriously, guys, I just bought my Geralt skin… and now it's either "find 3 people that wants to play in comms and treat the match as a championship semis" or "play solo and accept that you are going to lose most of your matches because the actual mmr is not enough and keeps pairing you with people that just started the game" (or "drop the game until everything has been ironed out").
Can we achieve some balance here, please? This is definitely not QOL.
because developers think stealthing is a problem when it is not.
all they needed to do is add a collision loss for 3 crows and make the abandon button work for killer after 10 minutes the match has started.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3949353#Comment_3949353
I wouldn't call it hypocrisy because DBD is asymmetrical. The killer role and the survivor role are different, they approach the game in different ways with different strategies.
And, in the current DBD, survivors simply do not have an equivalent to tunneling, it doesn't exist. A survivor strategy that was generally frowned upon was gen-rushing, and by that I mean the pre-nerf toolboxes version of gen-rushing, which is no longer possible to do in the exact same way.
see, there are A LOT OF WAYS you can apply "assymetry" excuse for.
effort, for example. survivors take roughly four times less effort to play because they engage in the actual "pvp" interaction four times less as its split between them.
however what this excuse is NOT applicable for is SKILL WHEN YOU SAY YOU ARE MAKING MATCHMAKING ACCOUNT FOR IT. If you ever, at any moment, begin to balance around the idea that "one side is inherently unable to play well" while also claiming that you are going to make matchmaking system work the way people "want it" aka measure player's skill rather than final result, you are failing.
You can either have balance for skill issues or functional matchmaking. The choice has been clearly made.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3949412#Comment_3949412
I'm gonna format my post with some numbered bullet points just for ease of understanding, I know that can look fairly aggressive sometimes so I'm trying to soften that ahead of time lol. Leaping in-
1: I am describing current DBD, but not for the reasons you're saying. It's not an expectation that survivors will be bad, because survivors don't need to be bad for the basic fundamentals to work against them. Sure, it's a lot easier if they're bad, but that's not what either of us are talking about here.
2: If survivors are near enough the hook to instasave… they weren't on generators. It can be annoying, sure, but it comes with an upside from the killer perspective. Adapting to how your opponents play is important, but you can also minimise this risk a lot with the next bullet point.
3: If you find that you have to spend a lot of time searching for survivors and that you're often wasting time doing so, that's a flaw in your gameplan. That's not an insult- that's advice. On top of making a point to try and keep where survivors are in your head at any given moment, there's a wealth of information perks you can bring that bolster your gameplan considerably in this area, depending on your killer.
There's no shame in using them. In the current state of the game I'd honestly argue they're stronger overall than slowdown perks.
Ideally, you should know where you're going ahead of time. That's hard to do consistently, but it's part of getting better at killer.
3a: You also don't lose instantly if you flub one instance of spreading pressure, the game's not that tightly balanced. It can make things much harder depending on context, but it's exceptionally rare that it'll lose you the game outright.
4: This works on every killer, it isn't S-tier specific. It's just how this game works. I also want to make a point that this is not "just playing for chases"— people in discussions like these have a common habit, I've noticed, of acting like not tunnelling is equivalent to playing aimlessly or directionlessly, and that's not the case. There's a clear and important intent behind this principle and it's pretty malleable to all kinds of strategies and playstyles.
5: On the topic of countering tunnelling, you're falling into a rhetorical trap I've seen a few others fall into. You're not wrong that you can counter the killer tunnelling your teammate that way, but if you're in solo queue and the killer's tunnelling you, it takes considerable skill and preparation (which, for the record, is what I meant when you say bringing perks, that's preparation) to counter because the killer gets a much easier chase for free.
The fact that tunnelling can be somewhat reasonably countered if you're in a full team means the state of things is better than before (when not bringing one specific perk meant tunnelling had absolutely zero counterplay), but because of how free and without any kind of drawback or setup tunnelling is for the killer, it's going to be unbalanced until the individual being tunnelled is also capable of countering it.
6: I feel I should mention this but all of this is from the killer perspective, not the survivor perspective. I do play both, but when I talk about the game's fundamentals for killer, it's from the killer perspective.
We already have a statement that MMR system will be fixed. So, we either admit that maybe tunnelling/etc is already okay as is because if you WANT to counter that, you bring perks that accomplish the counterplay more than enough or we dont and we have to acknowledge survivors will be having it way too easy and that needs to change. I dont like that MY role is treated as easy and low effort by developers themselves because the other role has been handheld for so long they lost motivation to improve and try.
Current/old MMR worked around the idea that you can play chill and be intentionally matched against "worse" opponents because you make up for that by skill difference in chases. New matchmaking is aimed at eliminated that factor as well. I can no longer play for 12 hooks, lose more games than I would playing without limitation and get easy survivors I can keep 12 hooking with 50% winrate. Before you had a choice - play as well and sweaty as you can and have survivors match it or limit yourself and get easier opponents because you are limiting yourself. Did it work or not is not so relevant, but this was the mindset and the idea devs clearly moved on from and this causes this hypocrisy because they did not change their mindset on other things that are the way they are BECAUSE of this mindset.
Now to your points.
1)But we are..? the game will always fundamentally work against survivors for as long they need to buy enough time to do gens. There is always a threshold they need to accomplish with good enough chase time. The problem, as I said, in equal skill matches these very fundamentals are not balanced nor designed for the chases killers are expected to get because if chases get just long enough (Which is also not difficult to accomplish) with current easily achievable gen efficiency, then killer has to resort to punishing every mistake or losing if they dont succeed.
2) I dont find it reasonable nor fair to talk about things when we assume major skill gaps to be considered while also suggesting to fix mmr. My singularity 90% killrate throughout 1500+ games was not done by hardcore 3 gen camping, tunnelling and slugging in every game, I was doing it in the exact moderation the devs supposedly want killers to play, even more, frankly, but this was only possible because my singularity is incomparably better. I could not play like this even remotely if I faced FAIR opponents like high tier competitive teams I used to defeat in unanimously agreed balanced setting of various tournaments.
2)Or they were on the generator and I just hooked near one as I examplified. If Im staying to look around or deny free pull it's camping which is another thing devs want to further discourage or punish. They dont have to cross the entire maps for the rotation. And of course, they could've already finished their generator because we arent just talking about the first chase.
3)I dont have to spend a lot of time, Im simply stating the fact that if I dont immediately find the survivor, the game where I dont efficiently utilize strategies to create pressure through alternative means that winning chases, then Im losing the momentum at inadequate rate. Sure, one slip up may not inevitably lose the game but it takes inadequate amount of mistakes to get things out of control. Especially on killers that are severely punished for them in either macro or micro. Like missing a window to hit and getting +30 seconds to chase because the killer I am playing is not designed to catch up to survivor fast. Or getting a wrong guess on which gen to pressure and finding nothing and losing that. The game hinges on too many high risk low reward (get to keep up) moments when you are not optimizing them away to be even remotely fair.
4)And the more you level the game into orienting it away from macro strategies / skill expression (which is not done just by "anti mechanics", aforementioned healing perks are pretty much irrelevant if I slap on 4 slowdowns and play any killer that can chain chases fast, but they pretty much win the game for survivors anytime I would dare to play hit&run playstyle) the more "Only S tiers" will rise above everyone else.
5)I guess I didnt make it clear, but I am not saying that if you don't tunnel, you must play for 12 hooks. Taking away player's ability of using every survivor's mistake to attempt to snowball the game to the best of your ability while they will be trying just that is not fair, especially when no reasonable compromise is being offered.
Again, I dont care if they patch tunnelling, I would win in any circumstances for as long as the game is giving me viable options and fair agency as a player of the side that takes way more effort and focus to play, I simply ask the same treatment for survivors - limit low effort strategies from them, especially when we're having a hypocritical rhetoric of "killers boosted to mmr they dont deserve".
6)"But if you are in a solo q", again, why are we assuming players are inherently bad and killer is inherently good?
I played survivor for roughly 1/3rd of my playtime if stats are to be believed and most of that is solo q. Countering tunnelling is not a matter of playing in SWF, it's a matter of having people that understand what to do.
If they dont while you do, something is wrong with the matchmaking or you simply deserve to lose on the ground of killer being better because not only they understand they can tunnel, they are also good enough to win the chases against the tunnelled survivor (successfully recognizing and exploiting a macro mistake and a weak link to get an early kill while survivors fail to uphold a long enough chase, protect the president or pop gens). I've seen countless cases with myself included when this "low effort strategy" just did not work because we weren't bad at the game.
And of course, there is also an element of rock-paper-scissors. If I tunnel and survivors brough anti perks, I am losing the game if they are on my level or getting a draw a best. If I camp and survivors use anti camping perks, same happens. If I play hit&run vs reset perks, I lose. However, if i tunnel vs reset perks, I win because they didnt have anti tunnel perks. If I hit&run vs anti tunnel perks, I win because they dont have perks for my playstyle.
Adding more and more basekit "solutions" to meta playstyles killers have without giving alternative viable options just means you make it way easier for survivors to build a reliable and consistent meta which, in current balance of perks, trivializes the game even more on top of basekit math.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3949353#Comment_3949353
The game's maths assume that the killer is taking actions that stop all three survivors from being on generators at once.
Yes, at the start you have nothing to stop them, but as soon as you get your first hook, the amount of survivors doing gens at once will shift unless you just stick by that hook and do nothing.
Tunnelling is not the only way to win. It's the easiest, because it requires the least skill to perform and a massively disproportionate amount of skill (+ preparation ahead of time in most cases) to beat, but it's not the only way to win.
you are describing current dbd. dbd where matchmaking doesnt work to eliminate skill gaps properly. where boosted players are a default state of things. where the game is attempted to be balanced around an idea that survivors are bad and killers arent.
see, here's where this stops working when we eliminate the "major skill gap" factor.
survivors can be already at the hook stealthing. if I dont proxy camp, I get instapull and they double the gen where I just left. Or spread around on other gens.
survivors can have healing perks so they dont spend time resetting under hook and giving me pressure. That is a massive issue in itself btw, we are somehow trying to have the game balanced around no tunnelling but then we have obscene amount of ways to eliminate all other kinds of pressure killer can hope to get.
then I have to FIND another survivor, spend time walking there and win another full chase while by the time I even get to that point on most killers two supposedly pressured survivors are already back on gens. Or I can just proxy hook, especially if it's near a nearly done gen and wait for the pull to trade / tunnel and not risk losing gen while im busy chasing people on gens I am not keeping anyway.
and that assuming I do it without missing a beat, consistently find a survivor, consistently win a chase and do it fast enough to keep up. Every time. Anytime I fail, boop, game over, you lost, git gut. It takes disproportionate amount of effort and consistency to do compared to just doing gens and playing chases whenever killer finds you.
Yeah, I would guess on someone like blight most people could do that when they learn him, but I think you dont want to make a case that only blight-like S tiers should be viable for an average player. Right now people can still play blight and get easy wins but people can also play way worse killers and stand a chance against survivors of their skill level because they have leverages like tunnelling or other macro pressure strategies to snowball the match off their mistakes.
and there are many such cases. "just playing for chases" is not viable to win games on equal skill level. that is the whole premise you dont consider. macro pressure and snowballing is essential to the game and tunnelling is part of it.
the fact that it takes disproportionate amount of skill to counter is a wild statement. it doesnt. you counter tunnelling by either bringing perks that autopilot it for you and/or by not instapulling and staying where killer can easily find you. That is what I was talking about as well when I talked about boosted survivors.
It doesnt take much thought to tunnel and it doesnt take much thought to counter it either. You dont insta unhook and trade in last 10 seconds and use all that time survivor spends on hook to do gens.
If you constantly get into matches where killers are good enough to tunnel through all the mechanics devs added and you or your team are unable to implement these strategies that require basic common sense, maybe you should ask yourself if you or your teammates actually belong in that lobby or if you actually deserve to win.
so yeah, as I said, I dont mind anti tunnelling and other anti mechanics. If we werent changing matchmaking to get rid of the skill difference in lobbies. Sooo yeah. Pick one.
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@Stibfa said:
Kaneki needs his enrage vault to get nerfed, i honestly dont mind playing against him because he has to play tiles as a m1 killer, the vault just feels very cheap right now
How i try to play him is by body blocking instead
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/UVFBXJ6R8DQK/1000025880.gif
I love doing that playstyle so much.
Im genuinely so pissed that devs didnt see this coming and try to balance kaneki around this ridiculously easy fast vault 50/free hit because they didnt want this killer to sell badly and effectively ruined the new movement killer's potential.
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@DevLinky said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3949363#Comment_3949363
It's quite easy actually. You can just monitor the latest IPs used and their locations.
great, what if they get sent to the wrong server? what if they have VPN permanently on? how much faith do you have their spaghetti doesnt tweak and ban someone for something they didnt do and couldnt even prove they never did?
best they can do is change how the game treats too high ping killer (it kinda does that already by validating hits, but it doesnt seem to do that enough with too high ping difference) and while they're at it fix the netcode overall.
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@UnicornMedal said:
BHVR has wanted the game to have comp presence for a long time, even though the game is way too casual at its core. It makes sense that they'd back the comp scene after all of the changes the game has undergone in the last 4 years.
especially when all the job is basically done for them already and they can just give a few extra suggestions.
they just need to give thumbs up and add some in-game adjustments to the gamemode that makes it possible and otherwise it works without their interference.
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yeah, good luck enforcing that without punishing people who got unlucky with bad connection
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let's put it the other way: tunnelling (and by extension camping, slugging, any other macro strategy) is the only way to win against roughly equally skilled opponents because the game's math is not supposed to give killer TIME for 6+ normal chases when FOUR PEOPLE are ALIVE and THREE can constantly do gens.
obviously you can stomp bad and most importantly MUCH WORSE players without resorting to strategies to optimize pressure because every chase is a 2 tap while they don't do 3 gens at once and just waste time.
you cant do that when this isnt the case and it's very clear from what we've heard from the developers they are going to change MMR system to accomplish exactly that.
I dont mind when people handicap themselves or ask developers to handicap other players when the game BY DESIGN puts them against WEAKER opponents so they can have Fun™.
And if we are doing that nonetheless, then where are same limits for survivors that get carried beyond their skill level? we shouldnt act like killers are the only ones, according to Mandy, who get "carried by abusing strategies". Survivors do that as well. If we act like you need to be "Good™" in chase that should also apply to survivors.
Safe trading resources while splitting gens because the game's math allows a free win anytime you do that against a fair play killer is not being "Good™" at the game.
I dont mind things either way, but I would like less hypocrisy in here.
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he's just really good at stomping noobs
when survivors stop getting instakilled in tiles because they cant loop or because they ran the wrong way and didnt have anything, this killer feels pretty balanced.
one of my best chases recently were against various kaneki players carried beyond their skill level and being unable to finish the chase because every tile wastes at least 30 seconds for them and they ego chase.
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@terumisan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3949276#Comment_3949276
sorta? i'm used to survivors understanding how to loop (or i'm that bad) so they'll either start pre dropping or shift w to the strongest window and use an exhaustion perk to gain more distance or both and if you take the axe out it defeats the purpose and slows you down it's a lose lose in my eyes but you can use it
it doesnt matter if they're good or bad for the addon to work
the difference is that if theyre bad, they'll be instakilled
if they 're good, you'll just be able to play around more
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then survivors shouldnt be able to use doors as mobility and the camera control should be done from the office with 5 second long exit animation so that the grabs still happen and there's a reasonable risk to being able to rob killer from map mobility.
you dont really expect them to just gigabuff an already excessive counter mechanic against like a High B tier-very low A killer, right?
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hatch dynamic is indeed awful and needs a rework
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i think windows can get blocked by the entity now vs victor
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@Matsu_Robot said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3949274#Comment_3949274
From what I've learned it's for stopping a survivor from revealing you by disabling the camera they're currently looking through with the axe, so yeah it is very incosistent. I've played around like 25+ matches as him and not once has that ever happened to me, I guess it's due to the audio bug with the doors and the survivors are afraid to use the cameras.
i got it even when survivors were clearly not using the camera (like when everyone was dead and i was just roaming around waiting for the animations to end) so idk, it just feels random
but yeah, deviousness gains are just nonexistent. i really hope that they will ADD new scoring events and not just replace existing ones (especially brutality ones) with deviousness gains like they did with Dracula who, for example, doesnt get brutality for hitting people with hellfire which is so stupid
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@terumisan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3949270#Comment_3949270
the bigger move speed difference doesn't really matter since they added 20% faster vault speed and everyone around you also gets it so if the victim decides to go to a main building the extra vault speed makes it harder to catch them and makes main and shack stronger
it does matter tho because you catch up to them quicker. and, as I said, the haste makes things way less reactable.
you basically make half of the loops into unsafe loops you can outplay with movement because it takes way less time to make a loop to the window, meaning that there's way less time to react. especially since you can see the aura of the axe. it's really good.
yeah, you're giving survivors benefits too so it might backfire, but it's high risk high reward. at absolute worst you just 2 tap people faster.
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There's also a 750 "tough luck" scoring event that you get for lodging the axe into the door but its kinda inconsistent and i cant quite pinpoint why you get it or dont.
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that is not true tho?
yeah, he can come back to doors, but unless he PREDICTS when the save happens, he takes time to arrive and survivors can leave the hook by that time.
Sitting in doors near hook builds up AFC so unless you sit in there against solo q players, it's kinda useless and at this point it's a matter of AFC not being visible / telegraphed to other players without comms
so just dont heal under hook or only heal if you have new buffed healing perks to reset in 2 seconds anyways and you're fine.
and lodging axe into the unhooked survivor does let you catch up to them faster, but it's still even hardly as good let alone better than 2 taps other killers can do. Im not going to bring up like blight or nurse, but even same tier killers like deathslinger or huntress can tunnel off the hook so much better AND they can also make unhooking harder.
slinger can spear survivor and HOLD THEM while their BT runs out, huntress can just hatchet-hatchet 2 tap, pinhead can do instadown through BT with original pain and so on.
I think novelty effect of this killer is tremendously affecting this community's judgement of this killer.
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@terumisan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3949001#Comment_3949001
celebrate poster and foxy hook are awful idk why people run it since everyone in the area gets a speed boost and gets a vault speed boost unlike the ptb where only the axe victim and springtrap got the speed boost
you get a bigger movement speed difference because your baseline speed (to which multiplier is applied) is 115% instead of 100%.
but the main value is just how it makes the chase go WAY FASTER making it much harder to react to what you do so its unsurprising bad players are struggling against it
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@ShanoaLegendaryPlz said:
As a xeno main looking at springtrap being better and more comfortable to play in almost every way, it is noticeable they are slowly running out of unique ideas.
The game has to fix each killer to revolve around generators/windows/pallets. They've never considered adding some kind of new loop mechanic besides windows and pallets, for example when springtrap was teased it almost sounded like they wanted to add vents.
As for perks theres only so many ways to increase healing speed to a point where most of the healing perks now just add a slight boost in speed when mixed with oreilas perk.
Itd be nice to see older killers brought up to par with todays "updated" killers even tho they are still somewhat effective
I play a lot of xenomorph and I still find him more appealing.
yeah, im missing out on range, but my power is almost twice as fast to deal damage within effective range (we will account both wind up & release & delay) after I tap the button, I am actually 4.6 all the time, my power is not limited with an extra long cooldown so if I dont miss tail, I have basekit STBFL on a superior attack and my tunnels arent shared with survivors (and they also feel nicer to use plus they have tracking aspect to them so I can find survivors or check all gens)
Turrets arent pleasant to deal with, but I'd rather deal with bodyblock traps and occasional double setup I can still avoid if I dont let survivor reach it for free rather than with free map mobility that survivors can use very freely because the timing to interrupt it is incredibly narrow
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Maybe because they're differently designed?
If you look at numbers alone, it seems like huntress is worse than springtrap.
Then you remember that her mechanics allow her to be a queen of proxy camping and snowball games very fast if survivors swarm her (which will need to happen bc you ARE NOT trading vs huntress if she has cooldown addons) and she doesnt miss.
She can spam 7 hatchets back to back and deal up to 7 health stages of damage with her power alone in under 10 seconds while springtrap can ONLY deal ONE in 10, so of course his power would make up for that by giving him 4.6 during the cooldown. He also is unable to really camp (sitting in door is a terrible idea because AFC still works, it doesnt work anytime you are pushed to the limit) or snowball in general, he can only do a fancy 2 tap which saves time and protects him.
Pixelbush made a good point that this isn't a powercreep, this is a healthcreep. Springtrap is a better and healthier designed killer which allows him to featurecreep and powercreep huntress' power at baseline because he is not allowed to get away with things that huntress can. Which makes him weaker than her, just more versatile and fitting into the gameplay loop developers expect.
The more camping/slugging/etc will get nerfed, the worse huntress and other old designs like that will get while healthier improvements will outshine them and that's okay.