SnakeSound222
SnakeSound222
About
- Username
- SnakeSound222
- Joined
- Visits
- 9,301
- Last Active
Comments
-
@DocFabron said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/611016#Comment_611016
The issue I see with this is Doc using that and the add-on that increases his 25% extra madness from his static field, unless of course they wouldn't stack. It would literally hold games hostage if the Doctor were to run around with Unnerving and Overcharge and do nothing but kick gens all game.
It would not stack with the Order add-ons. At first I thought it was fine because you would have to run an Ultra Rare and Very Rare add-on, but as I thought about it and feedback from here, I realized that the Very Rare Order add-on would make it easy to hold the game hostage.
@WickedMilk03 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/611283#Comment_611283
Which is exactly why my changes should be implemented. So hes not annoying.
He'll be weaker though. The devs prioritizing Survivor fun over everything else has to led to some pretty crappy Killers. We've gotten three new Killers and two reworks. Legion was horrible pre-rework and had stupidly powerful add-ons. The rework made them more fun to play against, but they're still garbage. Plague looked like she would be decent, but turned out to be garbage. Ghostface seems to be ok, but nothing really too special. We got lucky with Freddy's rework because it didn't destroy him and kept him at mid tier. That's three misses, one hit, and one semi-hit. I'd rather take a decent Killer than one that is very fun to play against but also happens to be garbage tier. We got better Killers when the devs were designing them with the purpose of "breaking the game".
Also, annoying is subjective. Not everyone thinks like you and your friends. I actually like playing against Doctor (and apparently so do the devs).
-
@WickedMilk03 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/611016#Comment_611016
so what he'd do is, camp 3 closest gens get a guaranteed win.
Can't he already do that though? He can already bring two Calm add-ons or Purple Calm+Purple Order and perks like Distressing, Unnerving, and Overcharge.
-
"a report for a report"
Apparently if I report someone, then they're supposed to report me back.
-
Are you on PS4? If so, then it’s probably because of Bill’s recent release.
-
@DocFabron said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/605691#Comment_605691
That Ultra Rare could just be used to hold the game hostage.
You won’t gain as much Madness if you’re far away from Doctor. It’s supposed to increase very slowly until you get too close to Doctor. You’re not going to reach Madness 3 very quickly, so you won’t to worry about having to Snap Out of It a hundred times per game. He also cannot control all four Survivors at once. He can go after 1 or 2 while the others snap out of Madness 3. Madness also does not affect opening gates or jumping in the Hatch, so he wouldn’t trap the last Survivor in the game.
-
@Condorloco_26 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/610994#Comment_610994
No U
Bubba's power deals damage. Double damage, actually.
😎
👉👉
Take that, angsty teenager with a broken ruler.
Bubba has to rely on the Survivors messing up or catching them out in the open.
The angsty teenager with a ruler can actually do something without completely relying on the Survivors, even if it’s not very much.
-
@Condorloco_26 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/610862#Comment_610862
Hey who asked you about Legion?
Is that another way to spell Leatherface?
-
Imagine nerfing the worst Killer in the game. Get good at looping.
-
Doctor: Hallowed Blight outfit
Freddy: Default cosmetics. I want to get him to prestige 3 but I already have a good build on him and good add-ons, so I’m holding off on prestiging him for now.
-
I think a 5th perk slot should be for teachables only. That way you can’t run a Ruin, BBQ/PGTW, Enduring, Spirit Fury, and NOED build on every Killer. Only two of these Killers actually kinda need the build though (Leatherface and Clown). Billy’s strong without it and it doesn’t make sense to use Enduring and Spirit Fury on Hag and Spirit.
-
So basically only 0.1% of the PS4 population should be allowed to make a thread? Also the platinum trophy isn’t a good measure of skill. What if someone just doesn’t want to get it?
Same thing with hours. What if someone just wants to meme for 500 hours?
Also, everyone should be allowed to express their opinion.
-
They look cool (especially the Trapper one), but $10 is absolutely insane, so I won’t buy them.
-
The reason for Survivors finding more keys in chests now is because during the last winter event, both sides saw an increase in the drop rate of high rarity items in the mystery boxes and chests. After it was over, Survivors got to keep that increased drop rate for chests and Killers got left in the dust. We’ve just been experiencing the effects of this change.
-
@CoffengMin said:
new ds is fine, just dont tunnel, its barely ever useful whenever you dont tunnel
So if I run across the map and hear or see you jump into a locker after being unhooked, I should just let you be and ignore the free hook? That’s not tunneling. That’s just you expecting to not be punished for making a mistake.
-
Waking up means that his snares and pallets will not affect you.
-
It’s a hook immunity perk disguised as an anti-tunnel one. Imagine if you catch two Survivors trying to protect the recently unhooked one. You manage to down them all and hook two of them very quickly. You try to hook the third, but guess what? You get hit with DS because you’re playing too good. That’s not tunneling at all. Or if the unhooked Survivor fails at hiding or jumps in a locker, you can easily down them but lose some pressure when they escape because DS. I should not have to leave a Survivor in a locker just because I know they’ll get a free escape once I grab them.
To combat this, the perk needs to deactivate immediately when the Survivor performs an action or another Survivor goes down. To truly punish Survivors throwing themselves at the Killer or hiding in dumb spots in hopes of getting to use their DS, the perk’s timer should be reduced after the Survivor has been within a certain distance of the Killer for a certain amount of time or the Killer was at least 40 meters away when the unhook happened.
-
@WickedMilk03 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/606207#Comment_606207
With my change it would be harder to actually land the shock. If you were to, it would give you a deserved hit and you wouldnt be stuck there going around in circles forever. Unlike right now, he would catch up regardless. As for the hallucinations, im not saying they are 100% useless, its just that whenever I play doc, i only use them to slug at the end and whenever I verse doctors and they do that, its super annoying. Getting rid of the addons that spawn it early is just making him more fun to verse. Adding a teleportation to it gives it more use and adds fear to the game that is lacking that.
Players will eventually get used to the thinner shock. How thin will your shock be? I was thinking keeping the same width but increasing the range and movement speed to at least 105% would not guarantee a hit after being shocked most of the time but still give Doctor a strong anti-loop tool.
You’re not using the illusions to their full potential if you’re only using them to slug. Use them to see what gens, totems, or gates they’re working on.
-
@brokedownpalace said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/606207#Comment_606207
"It's only absurd if you're bad" lol that literally makes zero sense. You cannot prevent yourself from going into madness 3 if you're in a constant static field. It's really not THAT slow. You'd scream and then have to snap out of it every minute or so. Goodbye stealth completely. If you run it's even faster. It sounds like an absolutely miserable experience to play against an add on like this and it's pretty obvious the devs would never introduce something so unfun with zero counters.
The Madness gain will be slower if you’re far from him. Madness will not increase at the same rate that it would when you’re in his terror radius than when you’re 60+ meters away from him. If you really don’t want to reach Madness 3, then you can go into a locker for a little bit or get out of his terror radius. That nearly completed gen can wait a little bit. It would also allow for more perk variety. A lot of Doctors run Distressing to increase the size of their static field.
-
Haddonfield, Dull and Skeleton Keys, instaheals, SWF, and gen times.
-
@KormitLeFrag said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/603334#Comment_603334
######### is that last one... You know there is supposed to be an actualy downside to these things, right? Its like the Plague's Iridescent UR, that is made up of downsides to compensate for its good bit.
Plague’s Iridescent Seal isn’t really that good. Only 20 seconds of Corrupt Purge and a decreased movement speed while charging it, but you get it whenever a gen is completed? That’s not worth it, especially because you will likely lose most of it before you find a Survivor. You need a second add-on to make it work. I’m trying to give Doctor a good Ultra Rare add-on, not a crappy one like most of the recent ones have been. Multiple downsides, especially ones that hit important parts of a power, are only necessary when the positive effect that the add-on gives is too strong. A map wide static field and a 50% increased shock range are strong, but not overpowered for an Ultra Rare. I just gave him to the slight increase to charge time to keep it in line with the other electrodes.
-
Doctor: Iridescent King and High Stimulus Electrode. I really like putting everyone in tier 3. I tried using the Moldy Electrode because of the better anti-loop potential, but I didn’t feel like I was slowing the game down very much. Maybe it’s because I started using it against high rank Survivors and I’ll like it more when I practice with it against lower ranked Survivors after rank reset. The multiple effects that Iridescent King gives me means that I don’t have to really worry about missing out on anything too important. It’s also hilarious when Survivors try to hide and I see the red stain on them. It’s basically a free hit for me!
Spirit: Wakizashi Saya+Katana Tsuba and Yakuyoke Amulet+Prayer Beads Bracelet. The speed boost from the first combo is insane. I love just zooming towards a Survivor and smacking them. Yoinking Survivors off of gens, vaults, and totems also feels really satisfying.
Freddy: Red Paint Brush/Pill Bottle+Dream Pallet add-on. I love making a Survivor think that they’re safe only for them to realize that they aren’t after the pallet explodes in their face. The Red Paint Brush can be decent at slowing the game down because it forces Survivors to find a teammate or run to their clock. The Pill Bottle can catch Survivors off guard because they might not see me until I’m really close.
Hillbilly: Instasaw. You think you can dodge this? Well guess what? I’m already sprinting at you and have probably buried my chainsaw in your back by now.
-
@Mellow7 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/605691#Comment_605691
Doc moves at 110% when in therapy mode, so you want to nerf that to 105%? Idk about that, I'd suggest reducing the time it takes to switch modes by a lot and make him move at 115% while in therapy mode.
I’m not nerfing anything. He moves much slower than 110% while charging up the shock. A lot of people seem to confuse his speed with charging up the shock with normal Treatment mode speed. It’s more noticeable on the higher rarity shock add-ons.
@brokedownpalace said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/605691#Comment_605691
- "New Ultra Rare add-on: Dr. Otto Stamper’s Files. The static field becomes map wide and shock therapy range is increased by 50% but the charge time is slightly increased (10%)."
That's absurd lol.
It’s only absurd if you’re bad. Your Madness will go up slowly if you’re far away from Doctor. You also can’t use a full giant terror radius build if you bring the Ultra Rare add-on.
@WickedMilk03 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/605691#Comment_605691
My change would still have pallets at level 2. Its just that useless doctor hallucinations would only be at 3 and would be given a huge use.
In regards to the shock thing, if its even just .5 seconds more, thats solid when you consider no slowdown while charging because the survivor cant sit and loop you forever if you continue to shock, you will be going the base speed.
The illusions aren’t useless. Locating Survivors is more useful than you think. Trying to protect a specific area? With the illusions active, you can check other areas without having to worry if a Survivor is hiding nearby because the illusion will point it out and you can run to it. They also gives Doctor a bit of an edge in the end game because he can slug the third Survivor and run right to the last one. Them only appearing at tier 2 if you run an add-on means that in order to completely kill stealth, Doctor needs to run that specific add-on. Those add-ones are basically a worse version of Deerstalker. Otherwise, he has to get lucky and hope that an illusion pops up near him. I heard you can run through the illusions and get them to vanish. They also do not give your exact location away. If you see one, then that means a Survivor is/was in the area. You can also leave the area and the illusion will not follow you until its duration is over.
Giving Doc 115% movement speed while charging up his shock could end up be more annoying and unfun because when you get shocked, it’d almost always guarantee a hit because Doctor is always moving at full speed. You could have Doctors that end up denying any vault or pallet drop at any time and that will piss off a lot of Survivors. At least with Killers like Spirit and Hag you have a chance to loop them. I was thinking that raising the speed while shocking to 105% and increasing the range and shortening the delay would give Survivors a chance to do their precious loops (because Survivor fun is somehow the most important thing ever and is the main factor in how new Killers are designed) and give Doctor a good chance to stun the Survivor. As it is right now Survivors can gain a lot of distance on you and make your shock useless.
-
This sounds like it’ll just make him even worse against high rank Survivors.
Doctor’s shock stun already lasts 2.5 seconds. I don’t think an extra 0.5 seconds and 115% movement speed while charging the shock is worth making the shock thinner. He can work with the same width but a longer range without the nerfs you’re giving him.
You’re just making Madness 2 completely useless. No extra effects at all. Snap Out of It would be just you holding M1. It’d be really boring to go against him. The teleport is not worth making Madness 2 worthless. He wouldn’t be as fun to play as he is currently.
I’ve got some suggestions for Doctor buffs that you might have seen if you’ve looked at any “buff Doctor” threads. These changes would make a Doctor more of threat at high ranks without using add-ons:
- Increase shock therapy range by at least 25%. The current base range is ridiculously small to the point where you won't even want to use it because you'll be in M1 range. Adjust range add-ons to compensate for this buff if necessary.
- Increase movement while charging up the shock to at least 105%. He can lose a lot of distance from just trying to use his shocks.
- Remove or significantly shorten the shock delay. This is just dumb, I really don't understand why it exists in its current state. Is it to give Survivors a good chance to dodge the shock?
- Significantly shorten or remove the transition between switching modes.
- Add the illusionary pallets to his base kit. They would spawn within an unlimited range of the Doctor every 20 seconds (like the current version of the Very Rare Order add-on).
- Have the Order series of add-ons either buff the illusionary pallets somehow (maybe let the Survivor drop them if they’re standing) or do something new instead (like have the illusions perform some kind of action).
- This one is just personal (I'm not even sure if it's true), but the illusions shouldn't spawn on a different floor than the Survivor they're tracking on multi-floored maps like The Game. It's really annoying to check one floor because of the illusion and then find nothing because the Survivor was actually on the other floor.
- New Ultra Rare add-on: Dr. Otto Stamper’s Files. The static field becomes map wide and shock therapy range is increased by 50% but the charge time is slightly increased (10%). This add-on will not stack with the Order series of add-ons (they increase Madness gain while in the static field by 10/15/25%, depending on the rarity), so you cannot use them to hold the game hostage.
-
@JawsIsTheNextKiller said:
The devs said that one of the reasons for the Freddy rework is that he was particularly hard for new survivors. Doc is also hard for new players to deal with.
I am surprised he is near the front of the queue for changes when poor Legion is sat crying in the corner of Coldwind farm.
Freddy was completely reworked though. Like, his entire power got changed and he is a completely different Killer now. I don’t think the devs will do something like that unless the Killer has multiple major problems.
-
He was chasing another Survivor and they made a mistake, so he grabbed them. The other Survivors can still get an unhook or heal up the slugged Survivor, so Doctor can’t just camp and get a 4k. This is fine and should stay in the game. It doesn’t need to be removed and he doesn’t need to be reworked. If you see him near the hook in Treatment mode, then just don’t unhook.
-
Lol just drop the pallet early. You don’t need to get the 1,000 Boldness BP. :)
-
@George_Soros said:
No way a missed skillcheck is 15%. Not even 10.
The wiki says that normal skill checks are 10% under the efficiency penalty section. The 15% comes from adding the Overcharge penalty.
-
Oh hell yes. I love these ideas.
-
Doctor is definitely getting buffed. There’s no way he’ll get nerfed. He doesn’t need any at all. When he gets buffed, here are the changes I’d like to see happen (aside from fixing his bugs of course):
- Increase shock therapy range by at least 25%. The current base range is ridiculously small to the point where you won't even want to use it because you'll be in M1 range. Adjust range add-ons to compensate for this buff if necessary.
- Increase movement while charging up the shock to at least 105%. He can lose a lot of distance from just trying to use his shocks.
- Remove or significantly shorten the shock delay. This is just dumb, I really don't understand why it exists in its current state. Is it to give Survivors a good chance to dodge the shock?
- Significantly shorten or remove the transition between switching modes.
- Add the illusionary pallets to his base kit. They would spawn within an unlimited range of the Doctor every 20 seconds (like the current version of the Very Rare Order add-on).
- Have the Order series of add-ons either buff the illusionary pallets somehow (maybe let the Survivor drop them if they’re standing) or do something new instead (like have the illusions perform some kind of action).
- This one is just personal (I'm not even sure if it's true), but the illusions shouldn't spawn on a different floor than the Survivor they're tracking on multi-floored maps like The Game. It's really annoying to check one floor because of the illusion and then find nothing because the Survivor was actually on the other floor.
- New Ultra Rare add-on: Dr. Otto Stamper’s Files. The static field becomes map wide and shock therapy range is increased by 50% but the charge time is slightly increased (10%).
-
Unless something changes regarding the lawsuit, I don’t think we’re going to be getting any new Friday the 13th media until at least 2023.
-
Overcharge should apply after PGTW does. You should be able to regress a gen by 40% if the Survivor misses the skill check. If you also use Huntress Lullaby, then you can add an extra 6% to that.
-
@anarchy753 said:
I don't doubt they'll absolute gut him.
He's a weak killer and not all that fun to play, but in line with most of their other "reworks" they just remove everything survivors find annoying to play against and leave a killer that barely has a power.
I thought that Legion and Freddy have been the only two Killers to receive reworks to their base kits and not just straight buffs or nerfs to them. If the devs do decide to rework his base kit instead of just his add-ons, hopefully he ends up stronger like what happened with Freddy and not weaker or a tiny bit stronger like Legion did.
-
I think that would work better as an effect for the Order series of add-ons (the illusionary pallets would be part of his base kit instead). The common add-on could have the illusion charge up the shock therapy, the uncommon add-on could have them run toward the Survivor and pretend to swing, and the very rare add-on could have them perform a random action.
I really like Mister_xD's idea for the second Ultra Rare add-on.
-
I’m hoping it’s just buffs the addition of a second Ultra Rare add-on. He does not need a rework at all. Here is what I would like to see in regards to buffs for Doctor:
- Increase shock therapy range by at least 25%. The current base range is ridiculously small to the point where you won't even want to use it because you'll be in M1 range. Adjust range add-ons to compensate for this buff if necessary.
- Increase movement while charging up the shock to at least 105%. He can lose a lot of distance from just trying to use his shocks.
- Remove or significantly shorten the shock delay. This is just dumb, I really don't understand why it exists in its current state. Is it to give Survivors a good chance to dodge the shock?
- Significantly shorten or remove the transition between switching modes.
- Add the illusionary pallets to his base kit. They would spawn within an unlimited range of the Doctor every 20 seconds (like the current version of the Very Rare Order add-on).
- Have the Order series of add-ons either buff the illusionary pallets somehow (maybe let the Survivor drop them if they’re standing) or do something new instead (like have the illusions perform some kind of action).
- This one is just personal (I'm not even sure if it's true and would probably be more of a QoL change), but the illusions shouldn't spawn on a different floor than the Survivor they're tracking on multi-floored maps like The Game. It's really annoying to check one floor because of the illusion and then find nothing because the Survivor was actually on the other floor.
- New Ultra Rare add-on: Dr. Otto Stamper’s Files. The static field becomes map wide and shock therapy range is increased by 50% but the charge time is slightly increased (10%).
-
@thesuicidefox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/600700#Comment_600700
Try it.
Next time you get a Doc let him put you in Madness 3 and on a hook. Have your friend save you with BT. See how well that goes.
PS. It won't go well. Like I said I've never seen someone successfully Snap Out and Mend before they went down. The only time I've seen someone get away like that is when someone ELSE Mends them first.
It seems like those Survivors were just trying to get to a safe location before snapping out of it instead of just doing it on the spot. It's 100% their fault in that case. I’m hoping the devs realize this and continue to let Madness 3 counter BT.
Also, why can't Killers have parts of their powers counter certain Survivor perks? Survivors have perks and a mechanic that can shut down most of a Killer’s power (sabotage for Trapper, Calm Spirit for Doctor, and OoO for most stealth Killers), it’s only fair that Killer powers can counter some Survivor perks. Wraith’s cloak counters BT but nobody talks about that. Is it just Survivors not wanting to get good against Doctor?
-
Nurse has been complained about for years and has two ridiculously strong builds. I think I remember a Nurse Cube being mentioned in like 2017 (back when reworks or a bunch of Killer buffs all at once were called cubes), so this has been talked about for years. She’s definitely going to lose her omega blink and probably the five blink loadout (I say probably because the devs might want to keep five blink Nurse but give her some major downsides in order to make up for having two extra blinks).
Doctor is probably getting looked at soon because he just needs some buffs to his base kit, a second ultra rare add-on, and some add-on changes. He doesn’t need a rework at all. Here’s what I’m hoping they’ll change for Doctor for his base kit, a second ultra rare add-on, and a couple of his add-ons (I'm not sure what I'd like to see out of a changed Maple Knight add-on, so I didn't listen):
- Increase shock therapy range by at least 25%. The current base range is ridiculously small to the point where you won't even want to use it because you'll be in M1 range. Adjust range add-ons to compensate for this buff if necessary.
- Increase movement while charging up the shock to at least 105%. He can lose a lot of distance from just trying to use his shocks.
- Remove or significantly shorten the shock delay. This is just dumb, I really don't understand why it exists in its current state. Is it to give Survivors a good chance to dodge the shock?
- Significantly shorten or remove the transition between switching modes.
- Add the illusionary pallets to his base kit.
- Change the Order series of add-ons to either buff the illusionary pallets (like letting Survivors drop them if they're standing) or give a new effect (like having the illusions randomly perform actions).
- This change is just personal (I'm not even sure if it's true), but the illusions shouldn't spawn on a different floor than the Survivor they're tracking on multi-floored maps like The Game. It's really annoying to check one floor because of the illusion and then find nothing because the Survivor was actually on the other floor.
- New Ultra Rare add-on: Dr. Otto Stamper's Files. Your static field becomes map wide, shock therapy range is increased by 50% and the charge time is slightly increased. I'm actually a little surprised that the add-on series stopped at Carter's Notes and haven't gone to Otto's files considering he was Carter's mentor.
The devs might be trying to rework Leatherface so camping with him won't mean certain death as a Survivor. They could've decided to look at Killers like Nurse and Doctor who will be easier to change instead of Leatherface who could end up needing a rework instead of just simple buffs to his chainsaw.
-
Try getting out of tier 3 the moment BT activates or he leaves you. The Deep Wound timer will not go down while in the terror radius. A lot of Doctors run Distressing, which makes his terror radius around 40 meters. By the time you exit his terror radius, you should have snapped out of it and already started the mending action. If he continues to chase you, then loop him until he leaves you. Make him want to stop chasing you and the moment you see him leave, start snapping out of it. The Deep Wound timer also pauses while Mending, so you won't have to worry about going down right after you snap out of it.
-
@Yamaoka said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/599105#Comment_599105
True. I can merely down a whole SWF team in one minute without camping at Lery's using NOTHING BUT MY CHAINSAW. Definitely too weak.
If the devs ever decide to fix/buff/rework my chilli addons I'll be happy enough.
Those must have been some ######### Survivors then.
-
No, BBQ is a balanced perk with multiple counters and a good incentive to not camp. Besides, Survivors can run perks like DS to discourage tunneling. The Emblem system also discourages it if you want to pip or double pip at red and purple ranks.
-
BBQ is a pretty strong tracking perk, but it has multiple counters. You can hide in a locker, run Distortion, hide behind a gen aura, get within 40 meters of the Killer, or try to mindgame the Killer with the aura. It also discourages camping. If you're playing Survivor, would you rather have the Killer stay near the hook because they don't know where everyone else is at or have them leave and let you get saved because they saw where another Survivor is at?
-
Wait I thought they buffed Leatherface? What was the nerf for?
-
First we need Haddonfield fixed. At least you can try to prevent Survivors from reaching the main building on Rancid Abattoir.
-
I wouldn’t mind if a version of Mad Grit was made baseline for Killers.
-
The tractor trick has been possible for ages. It won’t be bannable because so many Killers have done it so many times. I wouldn’t be surprised if the devs are just letting it stay in as a feature now.
-
I’m assuming that a bunch of rank 20s suddenly started whining about Pig and the devs gave in or a couple of devs started thinking that Pig was OP and got her nerfed.
-
Why is Pig getting so many nerfs? Are rank 20s suddenly saying she’s OP for whatever bullshit reason? And the devs are actually ######### listening to them?
-
When I played him today, there was a red arrow over the generator that I was aiming at. I don't think the aura's color changed.
-
What is Corvalol?
-
Ah #########, here we go again.
(Is the profanity filter gone?)
-
Ah #########, here we go again.