Idea: Making some perk features baseline
Consider turning a few perks into baseline parts of the survivor and killer kits. It would help the overall quality of life in the game, by way of encouraging cooperative play, deterring camping, and helping killers find survivors more reliably. It would also remove some of the false choice that currently exists around a couple of "must-run" perks for many players. The existing perks would obviously need to be redesigned or replaced, which I haven't given any thought to, but that is not terribly germane to the idea at hand.
Here are my suggestions for perk effects to integrate into each role's base kits.
For survivors:
- Bond: This would be a nice QoL upgrade for survivors, especially for new players. Being able to see teammates who are near you helps to incentivize cooperative play.
- Kindred: I don't really see a good justification against making this baseline. It's a good perk that most players don't run because it doesn't give them any direct benefit, but it would be a marvelous anti-camping tool, as it would broadcast to all survivors in no uncertain terms that they should stay on objectives and punish the camping.
- We're Gonna Live Forever: Seriously, just make the BP incentive a baked-in benefit of altruistic play, and redesign this perk. It would make everyone so much happier.
For killers:
- Whispers: This would be a nice QoL upgrade for killers, especially for new players. Finding survivors is the hardest part about the game, and this would help killers understand whether they're wasting a bunch of time or not.
- Bitter Murmur: I don't really see a good justification against making this baseline. Finding survivors is, again, the hardest job of the killer, and this would be a marvelous anti-rushing tool, as it would help guide the killer in the right direction as the survivors start getting ahead.
- Barbecue & Chili (just the BP mechanic): Seriously, just make the BP incentive a baked-in benefit (and an incentive to not tunnel one survivor super-hard), and leave the perk itself with just the aura detection. It would make everyone so much happier.
Comments
The problem to making perks baseline is they have to be reworked since their existing effects are in the game.
However, other than that, it's not a bad idea, and I liked how you suggested the BP perks being baseline as well - The grind is terrible when there are hundreds of perks out there WITH their 3 tiers. It's ridiculous.
The only one i agree with is Kindred but not in its current form. You would only see the Killer Aura within so many meters. The survivors can't see each others auras.
Monstrous shrine should be default for killers. The basement should be dangerous and an incentive for killers to hook survivors in the basement.
I would hate having whispers built in on my killers. It takes away from being able to hear footsteps, groans of pain, etc. and instead gives me a useless notification that someone is in the area by ######### my ears. It would be good for new killers, but not experienced ones.
@fcc2014 Ah yeah, that's a good point about Kindred -- the meaningful part of it is the "Everyone can see the killer when he stays within X meters of the hook" part.
The rest of them would be healthy QoL upgrades all around.
To each their own, but I cannot play killer without Whispers. It's a useful radar that helps to narrow down where survivors are (and just as importantly, where they AREN'T). I think it's the best all-purpose killer perk in the game. I don't have an issue with it interfering with sound cues, but it could probably be changed to a visual-only cue that accomplishes the same thing.
I wouldn’t mind if a version of Mad Grit was made baseline for Killers.
I do just fine without the annoying voice in my ears. I have never had a problem finding survivors so if this ever does happen it should at least be able to be toggled.
Finding survivors, broadly, is tough for a lot of killers and ends up wasting a lot of time (something that is always against the killer), without the help of detection perks.
I am against most of these being baseline.
Why?
The ones I like are Kindred being baseline to help with solo play as issues of survivors not seeing each other leads to either people not saving the one that is hooked or too many showing up to the hook. I also like BBQ and WGLF being baseline but that's about it. If survivors are going to get Kindred I personally think that bond shouldn't be available because too much aura reading imo. The reason I don't like Bitter murmur and Whispers is because of the viability of stealth, stealth is one of the mechanics that really isn't that viable any more and this would weaken stealth even further.
I'm a stealth player myself, and I think these killer difficulties are way more urgent than the stealth gameplay aspect. Then again, I also believe that if you can't consistently play around these kinds of detection perks, you aren't doing a very good job at being stealthy anyway.
Alright, now this is a perspective type thing. If I installed a wall hack to see every survivor aura while playing survivor. Or we made Bond base kit. What is the difference? I simply find it too much constant information. The idea of this game is you aren't suppose to know what everyone else is doing just what you can infer. This is why I am against coms with swf. I find it being practically no better than hacking to get the same advantages. A perk is something that should give you a slight advantage like bond. A mechanic what you are imposing should be reasonably balanced. I saw a post earlier that said everyone wants a million dollars from the government but this would ruin the economy. Similar situation here knowing too much leads to a game with not much to do. We might as well have no debris and just walls and gens. Just being able to see across the map in a barren wasteland.
Bond - I think the sounds of hearing them are fine. You don't need 24/7 auras. This would also allow you to know if you are super safe and killer is in chase. Which if your head was stuck in a generator how would you know. Again the concept of just installing a wall hack to get the same advantages. It ruins gameplay value.
Kindred: The idea of not seeing where the other survivors are makes you tempted to get off the gen yourself. This allows the killer more time to find survivors and a bit more to slow the game down. What if nobody ever went for the save they would just die. This has been studied when someone says "Call 911" many groups will assume someone else is already doing something and let the matter alone and not do anything themselves which is what happens when you can't see the aura. You have to make the choice to stay or not.
We're gonna live forever - Now I would like to call out a video from the Angry Joe Show where they were talking about EA's 'Surprise Mechanics' nonsense. Essentially what was said is we should reward good games "I'll buy 10 copies" when in reality that is what they should be doing in the first place. Why do you need to over-reward basic expectation. You shouldn't screw your team over and expect to be rewarded for it nor should you be extra rewarded for doing something you are suppose to do.
Whispers: Honestly this is a preference but as they argued anti-stealth is not good. I enjoy when survivors play stealthy rather than let's play spin in circles. I prefer not to use whispers because natural game sounds help more. YYYYYYYYYYYYAAAAAAAASSSSSSSSS NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO YASDASADASDAS DNASODASONONO. Doesn't help in most tracking for sound situations.
Bitter Murmur: Let me shoot a gun or something a mile away and start booking it. You should know which direction I went. Again might as well just allow wall hacks or implement constant aura readings. The gen glow notification is enough.
BBQ: Although, I never ######### about blood point gains. You should have an incentive by game mechanics to not tunnel. Similar to how people say just do gens against campers to punish them. Tunneling should be a valid strategy, however, the ability for ANY killer to leave the hook and apply pressure should outweigh that decision. The game should make the killer want to not tunnel to eliminate early. Not the opposite again rewarded for something that should already be happening. "Survivors being the power-role" really plays effect here. Try running a race with one leg. It is much harder because you are not as efficient as if you had two legs. This is why tunneling is such a valid strategy. I made a suggestion to the struggle phase change that gives an incentive for a hooked survivor being camped to stay in the game. Rather than rewarding them for playing the game.
@Rydog
Devour Hope pls
I was thinking along the lines of building in the most common perks: self care, ruin, etc... that way everyone can use the ones they like but add more variety... kind of like adding a 5th or 6th slot.
@Jdsgames Hah! OK, well I did ask for counterpoints. Thanks for indulging me. :D
I disagree with your blanket perspective about wall hacks, simply because we're talking about things that are already in the game. Bond is only useful up to a certain distance, and my point is that it would encourage cooperative play among the survivor players, and make them feel less "alone together" moment-to-moment. It's one of the top "must-run" perks for a lot of players anyway, so it's not like it isn't already very prevalent. This is a "false choice" perk for me, since I never see any reason to NOT run it.
@fcc2014 made a good point earlier about the "all survivors see each other" part of Kindred. To clarify, the part I'd like to see implemented for everyone ISN'T that, it's the "Everyone can see the killer when he is within X meters of the hook" bit. This would send a clear message when the killer is camping, and give the survivors the information they need to punish that behavior (while also incentivizing the killer to NOT do it without a good reason).
Whispers and Bitter Murmur would, I would hope, help close the gap in terms of the killer performing their most basic job, which is finding survivors. It's not always easy without detection perks. Bitter Murmur is like BBQ in that it doesn't let you absolutely zero in on people, but it gives you a good indication of which general direction to head in. I don't think this is too much of an issue.
Whispers seems to be controversial, but again I'll say it's a useful radar for knowing when you're in the right ballpark (or when you don't need to check any closer on, say, that gen over to your right). I feel like a lot of the response to it in this thread indicates people don't know how to "read" it effectively, and I'm personally going off of a base understanding that it is a good, consistently useful perk that all killers benefit from (which I am convinced it very much is). Also, let's assume, for the purposes of this discussion, that the audio cue could be changed to something else if it is a big issue for everyone.
For the two BP perks, my personal opinion is that it wouldn't be over-rewarding -- it would just be an easy way to up BP rewards across the board significantly for common player actions, which I think needs to happen anyway, one way or another.
If they’re to make any perks baseline, it should not be teachables - only non-teachable perks should be made baseline. Not all of the non-teachables should be base either, just some of them.
For the purposes of this discussion and the balance ideas that I am suggesting, that's an arbitrary limitation. Any perk can be redesigned.
Focus more on the big-picture idea that there may be some perks that would result in major QoL upgrades and healthy meta shifts if they were baked into base kits. Try to really consider how that would impact the overall experience, rather than getting caught up in the weeds of what character owns this or that perk.
@Rydog there is a place for cooperation it is called pre-game chat for survivors. This allows you to communicate in how you want to play the match. "I want to be the chaser, I want to do gens, I will be medic" type deal. This allows you to organize perks and items to better adjust your situation. However, I think you got the perspective of wall hacks and coms a little over-sighted. What I am saying is you having knowledge at base for things you wouldn't be able to know normally is just blah design to me. How would you know totems were being done? I suggested this to be added to "Small Game" it gives you a small boost. I personally rarely see bond used because SWF is so prevalent. Again perks giving you slight advantages you wouldn't have normally. Same concept with kindred. Survivors can also coordinate healing spots such as killer shack or by a gate in pre-game chat.
Whispers and bitter murmur can be clumped into the: "Git Gud category for killer" You should realize where survivors would hide to heal or where the gens are to locate survivors. I use to run bitter murmur + noed to know where they are. Then I realized... They will want to be at gates. Again auras are not needed if you use the slightest bit of common sense. However, again with the previous two. How would you know they are there in the first place?
BP as I stated earlier I am not entirely against. However, I don't believe it should be the sole reason you should play a certain way. Kind of like herding sheep scenario. Your chances at winning should significantly be better when you play the game as it is intended. Survivors to attempt to survive and killers being able to pressure survivors. Not let me try to do this and lose to gain a few extra bps. As I stated in a previous thread. Tunneling gets me the same amount of points that BBQ and leaving the hook does. BBQ incentives hooking each survivor once not anti-tunneling. What use to incentive leaving was all the survivors auras on the other end of the map. Do you know what happened? This perk was countered to such holy hell since Billy and Nurse used it. Similar to the situation of DS not being used to reward non-tunneling killers. Survivors are finding more ways to abuse it to get it to proc either way.
@Jdsgames Hardly anyone uses pregame chat for that purpose, so it's not a useful replacement for an in-game mechanic. Think of the Bond suggestion as a stab at instructive design, in a genre where you usually don't see much of that.
In my experience, "git gud" is (usually) just shorthand for patronizing people who express (usually) legitimate frustrations about something in a game. Helping killers to know where to find survivors, giving them a little nudge -- the whole idea behind it WOULD be to help them get better and make progress, and hopefully result in fewer really unpleasant or lopsided game experiences. I think you are looking at this from the perspective of a very experienced or high-rank player, where I am trying to address frustrations of the average player.
I actually think you would like another discussion of mine. @Rydog
"Add 5 'black/no' ranks to the game under the brown ranks. These would be tutorial ranks. These survivors are limited from playing in swf until general knowledge of the game is given. Black/no ranks would allow certain advantages to both the survivor and killer. As killer you would essentially see intermittent auras of survivors working on gens 40+ meters away. Survivors would see the aura of a killer being penalized by the camping penalty. The camping killer in this case would also get the pallet stun vfx occasionally to see they are hurting their rank progress. Survivors in these ranks will also see generator auras from time to time showing them possibly where to go next. These ranks would be almost instant pips up. So you would only need to play a good 10 matches before you are out of these ranks. Note you can never go back to these ranks."
It is a generalized tutorial rank section that helps players understand the logic of the game. Yes, this can be adapted further it is a general concept. At rank 10 a person that is camping is gonna camp. They know what it is and they are being penalized for it. However, this might mitigate lower ranks from thinking it is natural game-play. This also might help newer players from being in a swf with some R4 and getting dominated and not wanting to play again. This gives them practice and time to get better before playing ranked matches.
The "Git Gud" comment was saying the base-kit perks for those two are not needed. It can literally be replaced with common sense. Oh look scratch-marks that disappeared they must have started walking. Oh a generator was done they are in that general area spreading out attempting to hide. What I am saying here is you should be capable of utilizing some form of logical thought to conclude survivors wants/goals. However, base-kit means this will be at high-tier play. Which trust me doesn't need to happen.
@Jdsgames Good thread that you linked, I think a lot of that stuff is reasonable.
As far as adding more "tutorial" ranks: Do you not think that would add more chaff to the game, and also immediately nudge survivors toward developing wrongheaded habits (i.e. they would get used to seeing auras, but this would soon be taken away from them)? The initial experience is already a huge, massive knowledge wall for new players, and I would be hesitant to add more to that. Don't get me wrong, I think there's a lot that the game could do in the name of solid onboarding -- but I wouldn't want to confuse new players in this way.
And, common sense (similarly to real life) is not a common, universal thing in all matters. A couple of light detection perks in a killer's base kit would provide overwhelming value for less-experienced players, and like you say, really high-tier players might be able to deduce that information even without those perks being there... so maybe the benefit naturally gets marginalized as you get better at the game, yeah?
No, you simply explain like bloodwebs do that these things will occur in these ranks only. Just to get a grasp on what is happening. Like Tutorials but actual games. The tutorials we have now is a joke almost mindless. Hold M1 on Gen Hold M1 to unhook there is no logic behind it. No risk no actual events of gameplay. I find that more disassociated than what I suggest.
No, really high tier players do not need these buffs. They know when to heal and when not to. They know survivors will be at gens. We don't need to confirm this for them. Holding hands should be at the tutorial base. This helps them adapt to logic. If you somehow manage to just play mindless and think survivors are gonna be on the side of the map that gens are done already. You deserve to lose and see that you are wrong. Learn from your failures. I can understand failing due to imbalance isn't fair to say this for. But lacking logic is another thing.
I think Kindred is the only perk that should be baseline and only when playing solo, I hate when I go to unhook somebody and the other ones unhook him/her or the killer is camping, a waste of time and unnecesary risk.
The problem with making Whispers base is that its not an easy perk to use properly, requiring map knowledge and awareness. Sure, you could say new players will need to learn to use it, but if a feature ends up being more of a hindrance for them (which is your main objective apparently) due to its improper use, thats not good.
Whispers is also incredibly powerful in 1v1 situations. If its a perk, I have no problem with the Killer using up a slot for it. But a base feature makes situations like hatch closing a bit too much. Because of that, it would have to get disabled during such situations.