ScottJund
ScottJund
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So basically I was trying to find the relationship between how counterable people thought Spirit was and what platform they played the game on.
About 74% of people that voted "3" or lower (indicating she was easy to counter) were on console. About 10% were PC players in green to purple ranks, and the rest were red rank PC players.
Still, its not as drastic as I thought it would be. Not really enough to make a video on. Still, its pretty obvious a majority of people that don't see the issues with Spirit are playing on a platform where it is a lot harder for the killer to be as good as they can be due to audio / lack of instant turning, etc.
And yes, overall 86% of people voted 5 or lower on "How fun is she to go against." But we all knew that already.
tl;dr: I was trying to end arguments between people by just saying "You're arguing two different games due to how different console and PC player, let's move on."
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@SpaceCoconut said:
I was going to take part, but this is geared towards survivor players.
If changes are going to be made to one side, there should be changes made to compensate the other.
I'm doing something very specific here, there's a reason its one sided.
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@Auron471 said:
@ScottJund Ya better post the result of this survey in like a week or something bro
definitely planning on it
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@Sluzzy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/807309#Comment_807309
I was making a comparison of the strength of survivors and Spirit and why she doesn't need nerfed. When she gets "looked" at by the devs then she'll be dead alongside the nurse.
if you actually watched the video you're giving me ######### for you know I'm not talking about her strength. its literally the first 30 seconds of the video. come on man.
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@SteelDragon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/100932/scott-junds-video-on-spirit
I made a comment about this video and I will be copying and pasting it to here, it is long and it has time stamps pertaining to the video
1:04 now I will say old legion was boring but that is a completely fine notion of "you are going down even if it takes a while" you are not meant to 1v1 the killer as a survivor, that is why there is 4 of you, you have 2 hits before you go down (unless specific 1 shots occur) and you need to be hooked 3 times before you die. your job as survivor is to waste as much of the killers time throughout the match among the 4 survivors to power the exit gates and escape. there should be no 1v1 potential unless the skill of the survivor vastly out scales that of the killer but that is why the MMer is in place.
1:19 you say there is no feedback against spirit when you are wrong, there is 2 details about spirit that lets you know when she phases
1 the glass in her body lights up
2 her hair resets its animation
now the hair one can be covered up by a cosmetic and so can SOME BUT NOT ALL of her glass shards, (but cosmetics giving a in game advantage is not unheard of just look at blendete)
this notion of her giving no feedback has only been made by people who don't want to pay attention to tells that are not as obvious as daylight
you even admit to the glass lighting up part, which then contradicts your "sprit gives no feedback" right there, but you say that it is not reliable but I am able to make those reads myself plenty, it also helps to get in the mind of the killer a bit and that is why I play both sides, killer and survivor. just because your friends may not be good at determining the details is not a good reason to write off one of the tells for counter play.
also as a tip to all those who say you cant counter spirit, next time you are at a semi unsafe pallet, and you don't know if the spirit is phasing or not just WALK AWAY, DONT JUST STAND THERE. walk away? then she is phasing around the loop looking for you, if she is doing the mindgame? she will probably break the pallet or at worst will phase around it wasting time of her power to go around it and towards you but because you are walking, it will be harder to track you so also DONT BE PREDICTABLE IN YOUR MOVEMENT. do these 2 things and you will do much better against spirit
As with everyone, id be very interested in you demonstrating these counters in a KYF
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@Hag.is.Dtier said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/807334#Comment_807334
What's true? Clown is bottom of the garbage with Legion.
Yeah I haven't said clown is anything but terrible in over a year. Also Dead Hard isnt bad if used for making distance. Not sure what hes talking about
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@Sluzzy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/807140#Comment_807140
Yes, but that's clearly not why he made that video. To show how disingenuous he is, I watched him a little a long time ago and he was stream sniped with Huntress and they all got out and teabagged him at the exit gates. He was stream sniped by the same SWF and he used Spirit with a Mori out of revenge because he was pissed. It was funny seeing him barely killing them all. They were down to 1 gen and he supposedly played the most OP killer with a mori. And here he claims this killer is unfair with how strong survivors "can potentially be". Hilarious.
I'm really confused but what does any of this have to do with anything? You're bringing up the strength of Spirit which had nothing to do with the video.
Also my YouTube revenue goes to my editor.
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@Marcus said:
Oh and I forgot, some people and streamers will still keep calling her " by far the best killer in the game" ( as we saw above ), so I still expect complains towards her and people asking for further nerfs.
I didn't say she needed more nerfs. She's still the strongest, but no longer "what the ######### is happening" strong, just "damn she strong,"
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She is still by far the best killer in the game as long as you hit your blinks.
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I actually think its too good. A 6 second heal is a little ridiculous, and its a 6 second heal you can do multiple times. I can heal while being chased now, its silly.
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@xRem said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/798573#Comment_798573
If she had no counter play at all without perks, why do chases without iron will last different amounts of time?
Because you can still guess correctly. That's it.
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Imagine being in this thread and complaining a killer with no non-perk related counters is getting nerfed.
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@SaintDenisSlasher said:
I think this could be good BECAUSE they're not ready. The game just isn't fair and there's a lot of BS, having an e sports type event to showcase the BS might be what they need to make balancing a higher priority.
I love this game but if people ######### talking it can lead to a better experience im here for it
This is not even remotely close to an eSports event and this game will never have one.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
Giving the survivor any information about Spirit's power completely removes the mindgame(Guessing part) of her power. A common complaint for spirit is that spirit has "no mindgame" Implying that there is absolutely nothing you can do against her power and yet, not every chase with spirit has same length. Another irony is how some survivor say "Standing still is not mind game" and yet I've seen some players suggest that spirit should have no collision such that. Standing still for survivor becomes a mind game. you can move slightly outward to a loop such that she fails to collide with you. If spirit became an easy to read killer, she's 110% ms killer with easy to outplay power. She would be doomed.
As for the buff, You can already reduce her cooldown of her power through add-on's. I believe a green add-on and some yellow add-on reduces it. Spirit used to have directional phasing in PTB, and the power was pretty bad, so no amount of cooldown reduction helps if the power isn't effective.
The way I see spirits power is that majority of the loops are extremely safe/survivor sided, like if there was scale of 1-10, there are loops that are like 6/10, 8/10, 9/10 and spirit changes all these imbalance loops into a 5/10. I rather live in a world where every loop is 5/10 50-50 then every loop extremely safe for good players. I know it's the usual survivor expectation to be able to stall a killer nearly indefinitely but I think killer who have powers that aid them in a chase should be able to end chases quicker in a fair way. I do wish her tracking ability was slightly harder to increase her skill-ceiling, but she is in good spot in majority of the cases.
I disgaree. It actually makes it a real mind game. A mindgame implies the other side has equal chance to counterplay you, but you outsmart them.
For example, if a change was made so that you could see grass being rustled by Spirit as she ran through it, it would open up actual counterplay, while still keeping Spirit in the driver seat. Not only would the survivor have to look for the subtle movement, they would have commit to a decision based on the little information they have.
Hell, it could even make the Spirit able to use terrain as a mindgame as well. Intentionally run over a piece of grass, double back to flat land and go the other way. That's what I'm talking about - that's actual mind game stuff.
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@Spirit_Hag said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/792566#Comment_792566
but we do have chances.
iron will (making it harder to follow sound)
spine chill (to see her coming to prevent gen grabs and if your in line of sight of her phase)
quick and quiet (So she cant tell if you vaulted a window or went into a locker)
fixated (create scratch marks one way, then walk fast in the opposite direction to confuse her)
dance with me (after vaulting she has no marks to follow) *pair this with quick and quiet and iron will and shes not finding you)
..you can't select perks after you know who the killer is. So the counter to Spirit is having one specific build always and that's it, that's all you can ever do for the rest of your time on DBD. Okay. Come on. You know that doesn't make sense. You don't balance around perks.
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@Spirit_Hag said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/792553#Comment_792553
already did and im still inclined to disagree or rather i need more clarification on how you're defining "interaction" with the killer.
The spirit was (by design) supposed to be a killer that was unpredictable and the queen of mind games. Its high level play for the survivors. You have to be in her head and predict what you think SHE will predict you'll do, and do the opposite. That time where you're trying to anticipate where shes phasing or when shes phasing is interaction right there. You are trying to outsmart each other.
But thats just me
Okay but that's not what's happening. The Spirit isn't predicting anything, she's just watching and listening for you. There are zero mind games. Mind games assume the other side has a chance to realize the mind game and react to it accordingly.
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@Spirit_Hag said:
sigh lol im just shaking my head
Can you please actually read the main post you're even talking about first.
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@Spirit_Hag said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/792518#Comment_792518
dont worry bro lol no matter what you say, they have convinced themselves thats shes op and ultimately the devs will cave in and nerf her, then it will be onto the next killer that requires skill to go against and the cycle will continue. Dont even waist your breath lol
Remember, this game is about the survivors enjoying themselves. Not the killer ;)
Literally the entire point of this thread is that whether or not she's overpowered is irrelevant. Thanks for reading the discussion you are taking part in.
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@NuclearBurrito said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/792523#Comment_792523
Sure you can. Just watch the video.
And you'd only need to verify the Spirit's skill level anyway, since the Survivor just needs to preform whatever counterplay is being demonstrated and it doesn't matter how much skill is required to do so. You only care about the Spirit since improper counters would work against bad Spirits.
In other words if the Spirit does everything they can to improve their odds and is still counterplayed anyways then that should be solid proof. This can be determined retroactively and it is better to do so since that way you can catch mistakes that are hard to notice in real time.
The video is taken from a survivor perspective. You see the killer for about 1 minute in the entire video. How exactly am I supposed to be gauging her skill level when I can't even see what she's doing?
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@PoisonN said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/792504#Comment_792504
Dude................................. I'm not searching for anyone's approval behind video games. At the end of the day is just a game so... It's not that serious. I like respect and that's all.
But Spirit is in the game. Why should I ignore her because you and other people will "hate" me? I always found ridiculous insta heals, keys, broken maps of Haddonfield but I'm not putting this dramatic charge in a simple game. You missed my point. I was saying that if you think that Spirit is just bad then you should take a look to other bad things and put them in the same category.
You don't have to ignore. If you don't mind everyone disliking you do whatever you want man.
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@NuclearBurrito said:
Specifically. All of those 100 videos are individually also evidence.
Any of the individual plays are proofs that such plays exist, otherwise they couldn't happen.
Basically anything that happens is possible. So if I show you an example of someone using counterplay against the Spirit, then that is proof that it is possible to use counterplay against the Spirit.
While you can deny that something qualifies as proper counterplay for one reason or another, you cannot rationally deny that an example of counterplay is not also proof of that counterplay.
Just saying a thing "is possible" isn't an argument, proof, or a basis of anything, really. Additionally, you are completely removing the skill component from the equation. If the Spirit player was Helen Keller and you epic juked her and recorded that in a video, that is useless.
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@NuclearBurrito said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/792516#Comment_792516
How does seeing it in person change anything?
Something being real time and pre-recorded is identical in terms of validity when used as proof assuming deliberate tampering is off the table.
Because I can verify my own skill level and I can't verify the skill level of random killers from YouTube videos. Pretty simple stuff man.
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@NuclearBurrito said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/792466#Comment_792466
Video's can be used to prove that counterplay to something exists.
While that isn't quite enough to prove balance (since something can have counterplay but still be OP) and never proves if something is fun or not (since that cannot be proven ever) in this case the request was just proof of counterplay.
Yes, if there were a magical video of 100 games of data between known exceptional players going against an exceptional Spirit that could be used as evidence.
That doesn't exist, so to prove it to me, I need to see it in-game, first hand.
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@PoisonN said:
LMAO this whole argument about "fun" is so ??? As a killer why I should care about survivors fun? Let's be real, they're want to survive at the end of the match. Not only one but the whole squad. They don't care about killers at all. It's EZI when I get free kills with a boring and unfun killer using my expensive headphones but it's also more ezi when I got my whole team with the privilege of communication 4x1, offerings of broken maps, gens being done in 30 seconds or less and telling that M1 killers should gIt GuD aT tHE GAmE or the classic juSt PrEsS GeNs 4HEAd
You guys acts like everything is fine in this game except Spirit and that's something that I'll never understand. Honestly, I really want that she gets a huge nerf in the future because I'm curious to see who is going to be the new target. I can't wait to see every killer turning loopable which powers are still controlled by survivors. How fun
You don't have to care about other people's fun, as selfish as that is. You're right, you bought the game, you can do whatever you want.
Don't be surprised when people don't like you though, don't pretend you're outplaying people when you kill people with Spirit, and don't be surprised if people refuse to play against you because they want to actually have interactions with the killer.
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@Spirit_Hag said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/792390#Comment_792390
what platform are you on? im on console
No wonder you think she can be countered. Console is a completely different game with vastly limited movement options that make Spirit significantly worse, not to mention a lot of Console players just use their TVs audio which again nerfs her location detection.
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@Spirit_Hag said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/792397#Comment_792397
so then this is a never ending argument. If you show a game where the killer does poorly, one could argue "shes fine, she has counters" but if you show a game where the survivors die "shes op" "nerf nerf"
How are you not getting this? You are making this argument, therefore I am arguing with you. I want you to prove this. You posting other people's footage isn't proof. I am not talking to them. I am talking to you.
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@knell said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/792413#Comment_792413
Not jabbing. Just observing. Gotcha, no problem with ruining other people's fun if your "job" is on the line. Ok, understood. No need to get sensitive about it.
Apparently going from Rank 1 to Rank 6 in order to play the video game is ruining other people's fun.
Either way, its clear you don't like me and are spouting nonsense so let's get back on topic please.
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@knell said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/792402#Comment_792402
It's just funny to me that someone who values their own stream content more than the enjoyment of new players of the game say, "I value other people's fun" with a straight face. No biggie.
Yes I value having a job more than other peoples fun in Dead by Daylight because I enjoy living in a home. What kind of weak ass attempt at a character jab was this
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@knell said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/792382#Comment_792382
Aren't you that same streamer who said they would depip intentionally to get faster lobbies even if it meant stomping on new players?
Like a year ago when killer queues were genuinely broken? What does that have to do with anything?
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@Spirit_Hag said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/792366#Comment_792366
oh you right, text wouldnt be good enough. I want you to see with your own eyes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCHW-L7VWQU
or
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXvYN0gtCns
Either of this will help you see spirit isnt as "God like" and "op" as everyone tries to make her out to be.
I want you to prove these counters. I don't want a video. I'm not talking to tru3 I'm talking to you.
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@HellCatJane said:
@ScottJund I heard twitch themselves were the first to contact Hexy about participating. But the dev's put a stop to it.
Tbh I dont understand why the devs would have any input on a Twitch event. Im just saying it makes plenty of sense why he wouldn't be in it
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@noneofyourbusiness said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/792357#Comment_792357
So why u Scott will not play Spirit if you think she is so unfair to survivors, if she is so powerful, just play her
Because I value other peoples fun?
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@Spirit_Hag said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/792366#Comment_792366
oh you right, text wouldnt be good enough. I want you to see with your own eyes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCHW-L7VWQU
or
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXvYN0gtCns
Either of this will help you see spirit isnt as "God like" and "op" as everyone tries to make her out to be.
Oh Christ it makes sense now.
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@HellCatJane said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/792354#Comment_792354
There are other "fog whisperers" that aren't necessarily "nice" at the dev's either and say some choice words, I'll say. I know a few of them are participating, I don't want to directly call anyone out of course... so yeah.
But the dev's seem to be "big" on second chances and stuff. And if this is just for fun especially. So, I just don't get it.
Like who? I know every FW on the list and ive never seen any of them call the devs cancer and ######### on stream
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@Jesya said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/792354#Comment_792354
then how is Pug able to participate?
Pug doesn't directly call them "#########." Its a Twitch hosted event. They dont want people using that kind of language. Twitch is pretty politically correct. Also Pug has never been banned.
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@Spirit_Hag said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/792357#Comment_792357
dude.....there are literally hundreds of threads laying out counters to spirit if you bothered to look. You think after a year and a half people have just been falling like flies to spirit with NO COUNTERPLAY?? come on now man be serious. If it helps, ill even send you some links my guy
Would you mind showing me these counters in a KYF? I don't think text is a good enough instruction.
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@Spirit_Hag said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/792335#Comment_792335
People only say its 'unfun' because they havent figured out how to play against her. Of course if you dont know how to beat something, your gonna get frustrated at first. Doesnt mean you cant train yourself to beat it. I play survivor with my friends about 80% of the time and spirit is never a problem for me. Is she challenging? absolutely! But thats the best part about her. I actaully feel scared! in a horror game! go figure lol There are plenty of survivors that wreck me as spirit, and there are plenty of survivors that get wrecked. Just depends on how good you are at the game.
The fact that nurse and spirit are the best options to high skill survivors and are also the main ones people always cry "nerf! nerf!" at is interesting to me.
Why dont we see these kinds of threads for trapper, doctor, LF, Huntress, billy, Demo, or any other killer? you know why? because those killers fall under what i call "loop-till-daylight" category. Where theres a million and one counters to their powers and survivors just have to run in a circle and vault a couple windows to keep them busy while teammates gen rush.
But god forbid the devs bring in a killer that requires you to play a little bit more cautious and skillful. Nah we cant do that...lets make her power all but useless and keep her at 110 movement speed. yeah thats balanced and fun -__- lol
Are you really that naive to think that the combined hundreds of thousands of hours of playtime the community has hasn't revealed a reliable counterplay yet? Really? The game isn't that complex. You winning against bad Spirits doesnt mean you found a counter.
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@HellCatJane said:
I am disappointed to hear that Hexy is banned from participating.
I mean he calls the devs ######### all the time and has been banned before what do you expect
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@Spirit_Hag said:
If spirit gets nerfed im just gonna play insidious basement leatherface in form of protest. They take away my fun, i take away theirs. Balanced
Im pretty sure they'll find that more fun than Spirit.
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@Tangero said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/792273#Comment_792273
More like it will show how broken the game is and nobody will want to play it
Everyone already knows how broken the game is and they still play it because its fun.
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@justarandy said:
This game is a buggy mess, even more with dedicated servers. Rubberbanding and stupid lag is always part of dbd and on top of that it's unbalanced af with all the rng. It's going to be very embarrassing.
Again, how? This is solely for entertainment. If broken ######### happens it will frankly be even more entertaining. No one has any expectations. This is not an eSports tournament.
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OP didn't word it very well but he's basically talking about how strong the speed burst is from a hit and how many survivors will waste a lot of their burst not committing to a direction. That's why you'll notice good survivors be so greedy at pallets at full health - they control their speed burst and gain massive distance so much so they can be chased running directly in a straight line without a single window or pallet and still last a minute.
I'm glad more people don't realize how instantly strong the speed burst and running in a straight line is.
honestly I would wager a group that experimented playing the game against M1 killers without using a single pallet or window could still win if they all had room to run in a perfect line for a long time.
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Its just a thing for fun and entertainment. Its not an actual "tournament." It barely has anything, if at all, to do with Behavior. They picked DBD because Halloween. What is there to complain about?
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Come on Behavior where is your answer? You OWE random forum users your monthly financial reports ######### devs
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@noneofyourbusiness said:
She's balanced, survivor's just forgot how to play in this game, thay're worse than before
That is not remotely true. Survivors today are infinitely better than on release. People would literally just camp pallets and hide in a bush - that was the pinnacle of gameplay because they didnt have to do anything else due to billions of pallets and infinites. With less resources, survivors have been forced to learn to be better and more efficient.
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@Rydog said:
I feel like Spirit punishes non-stealth. I like that the game provides a very threatening reason for players to use a stealthy play style, because we don't see enough of this.
Eh I don't like that argument. Every threatening killer punishes non-stealth because as soon as you are in a chase with them your time is limited. Doesn't really have much to do with Spirit specifically.
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@djsponge10 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/786720#Comment_786720
I hate playing as the spirit. So I have no bias. There are plenty of counters against the spirit. I love playing on ps4 since whenever I play with friends everyone plays as spirit and she’s so easy to beat in red ranks. Just watch her hair and watch grass if you don’t want to run iron will and or spine chill. She’s not boring at all, she’s super fun to play against because you have to see all the signs of what she is doing which is so easy since red rank ps4 spirits are so predictable they don’t try anything different unless they aren’t a good player we then adapt and wreck them. Spirit is one of the most exciting killers to play against EASILY but I hate playing as her, as a killer main. Idk how there is any “political agenda” lol it’s just a game bro.
Playing killer is a very different experience on console compared to keyboard + mouse controls, not to mention a lot of people on console don't even have a headset and just use their TV for sound, which would also drastically nerf Spirit.
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@White_Owl said:
I think it removes a huge chunk of skill needed to play Spirit, but I don't find it particularly strong, maybe because it can't do much against stealth and in chases it doesn't add much.
Even immersed Claudettes have to touch a gen at some point.
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@yeet said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/783779#Comment_783779
try being unpredictable instead of following regular looping paths, doubling back on your own scratch marks, listening for the spirits footsteps, running iron will or dance with me or even lithe if you struggle that much against her
there's plenty of ways to counter spirit, most people just aren't willing to change their own gameplay
Care to prove any of these sick counters in a KYF
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@Drazen said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/782695#Comment_782695
oh nice then plz show a video of destroying a 4 man rank 1 swf im very curious because none of these killers can put up a fight, nurse was nerfed hard she will be now below billy for sure
Go watch like...any good streamer. Plenty of proof.