Ryuhi
Ryuhi
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@09SHARKBOSS said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3833823#Comment_3833823
with pleasure actually
as soon as you begin the game if there is a hidden offering on the survivor side just run to the farthest gen and look around because you are likely to find someone
if hatch has spawned and you find it dont instantly close it instead just wait a few seconds and see if the survivor rushes it
when you down a survivor dont always instantly pick up because someone may be around to blind you
if you want any more tips then just ask because im not trolling on this im genuine
None of these are necessarily bad advice, but I think they were referring more to how to deal with the strongest issues that killers can have at high level, things like countering comms, lose/lose scenarios (usually caused by perks, sometimes by items) Losing the numbers game re: time efficiency and pressure, specific powers/perks/addons losing their effectiveness considerably vs good and/or coordinated players, etc.
Things like not instantly picking up survivors (unless you know where the rest are, and none are nearby of course) is indeed good advice, but that isn't enough to secure wins in uphill battles. Just situational considerations. The disliked strategies are generally either proactive or reactive to those types of issues.
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@イエローミント said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3834698#Comment_3834698
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3834706#Comment_3834706
Thanks for your thoughts! 😊
Personally, I don’t see tunneling, camping (or even fast gens and slugging) as actions that go against sportsmanship. I often hear arguments that these tactics are unsportsmanlike, but to me, it just sounds like using “sportsmanship” as a shield to ask the other side to go easy. I also don’t see an issue with these tactics leading to an increase in internal MMR—can you really call a rank earned by holding back a true reflection of skill?
To me, unsportsmanlike behavior would be things like trash-talking with an "ez" after the match or taunting a slugged survivor with inappropriate gestures.
Oh, I absolutely agree. Strategies like tunneling, slugging, camping, gen rushing, bodyblocking other survivors, flashlight saves, none of those are inherently unsportsmanlike. It comes down much more to the way people carry themselves, both in terms of ingame taunts (W-Sing, teabagging, etc) and any form of postgame chat.
My best example is with fighting games, using street fighter as an well known sample. Zoning has always been a thing in fighting games, as have grapplers. Grapplers are inherently a bad matchup vs Zoners pretty much 90% of the time, but nobody expects the zoner to not zone just because their opponent is inherently weak vs that strategy. Scrubs will complain about how such a matchup shouldn't exist, while most players will learn and adapt. Honest players would never expect the zoner to handicap themselves due to having an advantage. If the zoner starts taunting after each fireball, or starts mocking the other player while they struggle with the matchup, that would be unsportsmanlike.
Sportsmanship doesn't have anything to do with strategies themselves. Since Hockey comparisons are so famous with DBD, just imagine a team not taking advantage of an opponent in the penalty box. People have very weird expectations for their opponents in DBD, and its important to differentiate when their grievances are frustration at losing vs their opponent actively antagonizing them.
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@bubbamain_0230 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3834709#Comment_3834709
I have 1200 hours in this game and 1000 of them are on killer. So no my MMR isn’t low. It’s just really easy to 4k now a days
So basically you're likely exaggerating and using your experiences to try to disprove any that disagree with you. If you played that much the chances of you not encountering equally (or more) skilled survivors is near impossible. If that is honestly your experience, I'm sure most players would absolutely love to get your matches.
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Keep winning then. If its so easy, you are clearly not playing survivors of what your MMR should balance out to, so your matches should get harder as you continue winning. Even the best killer players sweat when playing survivors of their skill level.
Unless you meant that you never play killer and only tried it for a bit and found it easy to win when starting with near zero MMR and going against survivors with similarly low MMR (either due to being inexperienced or just losing that often.)
I'm not saying its not possible, but the level of exaggeration people often use makes it hard to actually discern how accurate anecdotes can be.
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@イエローミント said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3834222#Comment_3834222
So, in Little League, do they teach students to "go easy on the other team to avoid making them feel bad" just because it's not pro sports? Just because it’s a 1v4 doesn’t mean the single player has to hold back. It’s not the killer's responsibility to ensure a fun experience for the survivors. The killer isn’t the caretaker or parent of the survivors—they’re also just regular players trying to enjoy the game.
If you’re going to bring up the idea of a “fun experience for all players,” then survivors would also need to consider the killer's “fun experience” by evenly repairing all seven generators without trying to t-bag or flashlight-stun.
And as for so-called "cheap tactics," the game’s system doesn’t prohibit any of them. Are you saying tunneling should result in a ban? Slugging? Generators being repaired quickly? None of these claims make sense. In strategy, there’s no such thing as "dirty" or "clean" tactics.
In both amateur and professional sporting events they do have codes of conduct they need to follow. I get what you're saying (especially since most people inherently find losing unfun) but there's a bit more nuance than that. In general with sports you can play however you want as long as its within the rules (including sportsmanship.)
In this game people have an extreme lack of respect for their opponents, probably due to not being able to be punched in the face when playing in a disrespectful way. In fact quite the opposite, they're more likely to use toxicity for clout/streaming/videos/etc. It bleeds into their perspectives of nearly everything about the game, even balance. Major "not my problem" energy, until it is their problem (then its obviously the worst thing in the world.)
Shoutouts as always to the ones who conduct themselves respectfully, as well as the ones who are equally concerned with both sides issues/grievances.
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Honestly the only voting system I can see working would be one between [INDOOR] and [OUTDOOR], with the killer being able to select one or the other, or leave it up to the survivors. Specific maps are too exploitable for either side, so a normal voting system would always end up with a busted map for either side, which side depending on how the votes are weighted. That said, many killers have their powers' effectiveness change substantially depending on the map, especially with unique or niche builds like scratched mirror.
I feel like there is enough of a split between survivor and killer sided maps that there would be relatively even distribution based on that criteria, while still allowing killer builds that rely on either low or high visibility. There could also be a middle ground where if the survivors and killer decide on opposite choices, it just picks a random map and leaves it up to chance. Until all maps are balanced (impossible) thats the most fair solution I can think of. It could even replace the map offerings as "votes" that could be spent for either map type. Honestly I feel like it would at least be an improvement from our current map offering system.
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@Unequalmitten86 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3834390#Comment_3834390
Thanks but I'm console so there is a huge gap there.
You'd be surprised how little in this game requires mechanical skill, especially on survivor. As someone who plays almost exclusively survivor (and who always plays on a ps4 controller) most of the improvements i've learned over the years have been strategies (lookspots, recognizing tile configurations, etc) and learning how to get extra information through deductive reasoning (which the hud update helped with massively.) The actual chase has always been my weakest spot, but I've gained a lot of mileage from things even as simple as improving routing/pathing.
Its always worth trying to improve :)
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3833908#Comment_3833908
That said, I disagree with your argument separating the two. While you are right that survivors are generally not having fun during the slug scenario, if the killer is losing badly and just wants to secure one kill at the end of the game, they are probably having as much fun as the slug/hider.Being its subjective and we're talking about fun it's hard to offer any type of definitive proof, but to give an observation: in 4k slug situations it is pretty normal for the survivor to go AFK or DC, while this seems considerably more rare in the 4e vs defend the hook scenario. If people are still engaging with the game they might be stressed or frustrated, but they are still engaging with the game. I think engagement is a good way to compare whether people are enjoying the game.
Thats a subjective but well measured outlook, I just simply disagree because I do not think being forced to stay in a game you want to leave is better than having to secure one kill (if any) which can have multiple attempts at rescue. Being stuck in a losing match is constantly used as the excuse for why survivors go next, after all.
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40%? I can't believe the escape rate is 35%! How could the devs bring it down to 30%? Why are they balancing around 20%? 10% is simply unacceptable!
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3832277#Comment_3832277
Why are survivors so inclined to get all 4 survivors out when 3 are standing in the exit gate?If they're standing in the exit gate, how are they helping the fourth survivor?
If you have already won, but you can winmore,people generally prefer the more satisfying win.If this was just in a vacuum, sure. But its not and we have to look at what it is happening as a game that is meant to be fun.
In the 4k scenario, the killer is searching the map while one survivor is staying behind a rock or hiding in a locker and the other survivor is on the ground for up to 4 minutes. Very few people seem to be having fun in this scenario.
Now take the 4e scenario. The killer has a survivor on hook and is waiting for the others to rush in. There's probably some boredom initially as the survivors heal up, but otherwise you still have a game. The survivors are trying to bait out the killer while the killer is trying to draw them into a mistake.
On top of that, the survivors are engaging in 'risk'. If they mess up the rescue, or there is a NOED in play (or a much less likely blood warden), they could lose out on more than they hoped to gain. That makes it exciting and fun. With the 4k there's virtually no risk slugging.
So one activity is still a game that carries risk and engages players on both sides, while the other is a riskless activity where not much happens and one player is effectively trapped.
If they're standing in the exit gate, how are they helping the fourth survivor?I guess I should be more clear. I was referring to scenarios where 3 survivors are safe and can escape with zero risk, but they instead choose to save the 4th to get them out as well instead of just taking the win right away. The argument was regarding why killers would ever want to secure the 4k when a 3k is already a win, so it was creating a relative parallel. Guess I should have worded it better.
That said, I disagree with your argument separating the two. While you are right that survivors are generally not having fun during the slug scenario, if the killer is losing badly and just wants to secure one kill at the end of the game, they are probably having as much fun as the slug/hider. While its certainly true that it can be a more dynamic experience, that doesn't rule out the scenarios where they would rather just be done with the match.
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Clock Tower Rewind just came out, would be a perfect time to add Jennifer and Scissorman ✂️
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@DeBecker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3832277#Comment_3832277
Nobody was talking about a 4-man escape. Dont change the subject for no reason.
Are you purposely missing the point? It was being used as a relative example, I.E. winning vs winning more.
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@Autharia said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3832658#Comment_3832658
At a loop he get use from it but chasing between he doesn't as it doesn't slow them but slows him to activate, and on the newer worked maps there is always a bad for survivor area between loops that give more then enough time for BL to proc.
Not to sound rude, but you should definitely be routing better if thats a situation you often find yourself in. You should be routing differently depending on whether they can use their power in chase or not, and keeping track of how long its been since they did an action that would reset the timer. Predropping god pallets is basically a guaranteed BL reset on a good portion of the roster, which makes them great for routing into as the chase goes on if you haven't seen them using their power for a bit.
The only killers who really need BL are M1 killers, especially since they (usually) don't have powers they use regularly in chase to reset the timer. M2 killers (especially ones with antiloop) get BL a lot less often than you might think.
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@Autharia said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3832628#Comment_3832628
Seeing as you interpret thing with out numbers as if you could you'd see how many. But for you sake 36 of the 37 killers have times in a match where gaining bloodlust 1 is better then using power for a hit. Its purely situational and part of the micromanaging killers have to have to be good at the role.
You do know that every time a killer uses their power or breaks a pallet, they completely cancel out BL and reset its timer, right?
Are you saying that a killer like doctor is better using bloodlust than their power at a loop? There's a reason why some killers actually benefit from the perk that removes BL entirely, they are basically throwing if they get even BL1.
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@DeBecker said:
Why are killers so inclined to get their 4k?
Why are survivors so inclined to get all 4 survivors out when 3 are standing in the exit gate?
If you have already won, but you can win more, people generally prefer the more satisfying win.
@GeneralV said:
It is alright for the last one to escape, a 3k is already a win.
This is true, but thats also a player's personal prioritization due to the nature of the game. Its like how there is no clear answer on escaping via hatch, since some call it a win since their personal wincon is specifically about surviving, not necessarily the MMR based one (leaving via the gate only.)
People who play for the 4K are doing nothing wrong with that act alone, just like survivors who play for the 4E. How either side gets there is the more relevant discussion imo.
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SWF itself should not be nerfed.
SWF's potential should be nerfed.
The majority of SWFs are not an issue, and there shouldn't be a penalty for casually playing with friends. The impact this can have, however, is something that has needed to be addressed for a long time, just like many of the other broken mechanics that have been curbed over the years.
The more we get good faith QoL improvements that help bridge the gap between solo and SWF, we should be getting ones that limit the damage that comms and organization can do.
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@TieBreaker said:
This is something that has been suggested many times, and despite it being a small change, it's never been implemented. My guess is that BHVR doesn't want this change in the game.
it might seem small, but that kind of knowledge can be used by good players to blindly identify tile configurations like they can do with WoO. It would also be pretty over/underwhelming depending on the map. Some you'd see next to none, others you wouldn't be able to look in a direction without seeing a ton of yellow all over the screen.
I think one of both of those are likely contributing to why it hasn't really been floated. You could also make arguments about why it even needs that feature, but I feel thats a bit more subjective in either direction (skill floor vs ceiling, basically.)
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@Autharia said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3830078#Comment_3830078
Those other games also punish toxic behavior that that's along the line of tunneling/slugging/camping along with afking
I can assure you that Riot does not punish the strategic equivalents to tunneling/slugging/camping, nor consider them toxic.
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@n000b51 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3829996#Comment_3829996
Sure, you have right on many points. I was exagerated.
But on your last sentence, you can be partially wrong if you watch generally how it happens in games:
when the two last survivors remain in game, the killer chases one, slugs him to avoid the hatch to spawn, go after the second & last survivor, finds him & down him too. Then he will hook one of them, he will wait until the last stage of the sacrifice (it could be long if the survivor doesn't give up) & finally he can mori the last with this pretty nice mori.
I don't know but in my mind, to hook both of them should be quicker…
But whatever, time spent in game is mainly just some details…I get what you're saying, but thats a player induced delay. Its the same concept as survivors who sit safely in the exit gates and wait until they get smacked out, maybe sprinkle some heal tech in there as well: Obviously there are cases where they are doing what they can to get another survivor out, but a significant portion of the time its just taunting the killer for as long as possible.
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@n000b51 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3829860#Comment_3829860
Exactly. I have never used fatalities in PvP Beat'em'up & they never missed me.
But if you like it in DbD, feel free to do it, it is actually the good time. I will not surprised if BVHR removes this ability in the future tho'.
But is it this feature justify this thread ? I don't know. Make a poll instead.I think you missed my point. Fatalities are something that the MK series has been known for pretty much since its start. Moris are much the same (even if some of the oldest ones are pretty ass and desperately need updates.) They've taken out almost every gameplay aspect of them (remember when you didn't even need hooks?) and they're basically just cosmetic finishers now to close out the match. There are very few situations where you will be getting hit with the finisher mori when you could have wiggled off if it wasn't in the game, so the end result is generally the same. Hell, a lot of moris are quicker than the pickup/walk/hook/sacrifice animations, so you actually get out of the match faster.
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@n000b51 said:
'now the last survivor can give the killer a Mori.'
If you like so much to watch Moris for free, you can play all of them as much as you want directly from the Store.This is like saying Mortal Kombat players should never use fatalities and just look them up online and watch them there instead.
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@Xernoton said:
Yes! Yes! Give me chaos! Pure unpredictable chaos! Too stupid and fun to be optimised but harmless enough to have a good laugh.
I'm not sure, if they can do that with licensed characters though.
We Called It: The killer is reskinned as Nea. They retain their original model/power/animations. Killer will preform a special mori animation if the mori is used on Nea.
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Mine would be:
Where's Maurice: A tiny version of maurice is hidden on the map, and teleports to somewhere with no player LoS when interacted with. Whoever finds him first gets a buff that lasts until he is interacted with at his next location. After every minute he is not found, his aura is revealed to all players.
Think gametypes like Juggernaut from some older FPS, basically. not sure what i'd do for the buffs for each side, but of course they could also include things like penalties for the other side.
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"insta-heal" perks are very difficult to balance, so its not surprising they would err on the side of caution regarding activation conditions, especially in ways to prevent attempts to stack an effect. Imagine you're playing an M1 killer, and someone has multiple of these effects with no restrictions like the Broken state. You could hit a survivor in chase, they throw a god pallet and buy a bit of time. That hit triggered Moment of Glory's activation timer, with Second wind healing you if you got hit within its 20 seconds, giving you only 60 seconds until it procs the heal from MoG. Get hit again within that time, and you'll re-heal that state when it expires (this can be done on purpose to take advantage of the speed boost on hit/blade wipe as well.) THEN you could use a syringe after the next strong pallet, and 15 seconds later get another heal. Not only that, but you can have Inner Strength on deck, even if the killer went through all those hits, a few seconds in a locker and you're healed back to full.
Thats up to 4 heals mid chase, requiring upward of 6 hits. This isn't even factoring an endurance perk on top. The Broken state is applied to these perks for the same reason Exhaustion is applied to its perks and why Deep Wounds prevents Endurance: Its to prevent extremely busted scenarios. Will my example happen every single game? Of course not, its an unlikely scenario (especially in its entirety.) The point of sanity checks isn't because their issues are frequent, its to prevent them from being possible in the first place. This is why Deep Wounds needed to affect endurance, it was possible to tank an absurd amount of hits per survivor so the sanity check was introduced to prevent stacking.
Edit: fixed a few mistakes in time windows/activations
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Its a contingency block, similar to how killers used to run Ruin/PGTW in the same build. Ruin's effect completely countered PGTW, but would rarely last the whole match, so the PGTW was to make up for the lost Ruin after it got cleansed. A lot of perk combos can create situations similar to the concept of option selects, basically being covered for multiple outcomes within the same action.
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@solarjin1 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3829086#Comment_3829086
ahh ok thanks for clearly that up for me. it's definitely good perk but yeah people don't run it. "WoO makes a lot of its information redundant and is less limited, so its easy to see why" Yeah window kinda tell u bit of everything which make other aura reading less desirable. It do tell you where your teammates being chase at like bond. I don't think other aura reading perks will increase in pick rate if windows was nerf though. The people who do take it off will just replace it with more chases extending perks. The extra info It give is just the cherry on top but not the main reason it ran.
Thats exactly why I don't think WoO should necessarily be flat out nerfed, just put more in line with the other 3. As someone who runs it regularly, I'd like it to be less of a clear choice compared to now. All 4 are fantastic for tracking data on what your teammates/the killer are doing (especially when paired with the HUD update to rule out uncertain info) and I'd love to see some staunch WoO enjoyers to branch out a bit if they're using the perk for more than just a constant glowing yellow checkpoint viewer.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3829083#Comment_3829083
I'm not even talking about anyone in particular, it's just SUCH a common clip to see. That means ppl do it... THEN say to themselves "I need to clip that and show strangers my amazing play".
There is a lot of irrational ego in this game's community. They see simple plays due to synergies between multiple perks as being as impressive as Touch of Death combos in fighting games, kill streaks in FPS, Pentakills in MOBAS and so on. The skill expression ceiling in this game is much lower than most genres (especially for survivor,) but they still need to get their validation somewhere.
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@SuspiciousBrownie said:
So survivors don’t want killers to have aura reading.
They don’t want them to have Gen slowdown.
What am I allowed to use? Unrelenting? Or is that too strong?
@Rawrbot5k said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3829070#Comment_3829070
Because that's all we got, do gens or run. Yall complained about hiding, so we run or we do gens.
Its kinda wild how a lot of both sides complaints basically boil down to removing options from the other side. It would be nice if that was considered more often, regardless of role.
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If getting tunneled frequently, then you should be getting tons of opportunities to practice in chase vs the killers you go against. Being eliminated first sucks, but you are getting a lot more time to practice in chase than sitting on a gen will give you. As you get better in chase, you're much more likely for the killer to drop chase vs you and go after an easier target.
Its not the answer anyone wants to hear, but its true. Trying to tunnel someone who is good in chase can be a massive time sink, even if they eventually go down. There should be gens flying if someone is getting tunneled, as the killer can't be both tunneling and pressuring gens at the same time (unless the person being tunneled keeps looping around an in progress gen, of course.)
Tunneling is effective when its efficient. It easily loses games when that efficiency is taken away.
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3829016#Comment_3829016
I see. I can't argue with this because its correct. Thank you.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3829047#Comment_3829047
Yeah, apologies. I was using my own experiences as the de-facto reality and that's clearly not the case. Perspective expanded.
Please define PITA? Not familiar.Edit: Nevermind, I understand it now lol
All good friend 😀
our personal experiences do a lot with our overall outlook, so its understandable.
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@solarjin1 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3829005#Comment_3829005
Kindred and bond have remain in the top 20 for a while now. Bond even being in the top 10 often on nightlight. We can agree solo q players should all run kindred but did it actually get buff from it orginal state? It definitely better than 2.6.0 kinderd but not 1.1.0
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/WIA3PUZLJEJD/20240930-221640.jpg
The range was shorter for camping killers but only 1 preson needed to bring it not everyone. Kindred extremely strong but it completely rely on the other people bringing the perk.
Not necessarily. The big buff was that kindred works for you personally when any survivor is on the hook, giving you massive information on your team for the entirety of the hook state. Its effect being for all survivors while you are on the hook is still quite strong, but having that personally every time anyone is hooked is a very strong tool that gets ignored constantly (including when just discussing the perk's effects) that I swear people either don't understand or simply never learned.
Unlocks potential in your Aura-reading ability.Whenever any Survivor is hooked,Kindredactivates and applies the following effects:The Aura of the Killer is revealed to all Survivors whenever the Killer comes within8/12/16metresof theHook.If you are theHooked Survivor, the Auras of all Survivors are revealed to each other.< This effect is still there, and even includes full value regardless of perk level now.If you are not theHooked Survivor, the Auras of all other Survivors are only revealed to you.
This effect is extremely beneficial for solo queue players, yet people still refuse to run it. As you mentioned, perks like Bond are still popular for this same reason, but kindred especially always seems to get ignored by the people who would benefit from it most.
This is why I bring up the comparison with WoO. Survivors are much more likely to dedicate only one spot to aura information gathering, as adding more induces diminishing returns when there is spillover in metadata (re: perk slot cost vs game impact.) All 4 (Bond, Empathy, Kindred, and WoO) are extremely useful to solo queue in bridging the gap with SWF, which is why Bond and Kindred are still used fairly often. Just like with gen regression/blocking for killer, survivors sometimes double up even despite the diminishing returns, while others only pick one and then diversify with other perk categories. That said, yes bond is in the top 10 on nightlight, but compare the current pick rates:
Empathy: 2.92%Kindred: 7.58%Bond: 9.93%Windows of Opportunity:32.03%That is a massive differential, with the second place perk Lithe being 20.82%.
So yes, bond is in the top 10, but thats mostly because there is an 11% difference between the first and second place perks. The fact that bond and empathy even have decent pick rates when they are outclassed by a sibling perk is a testament to their usefulness in solo queue, but survivors are considerably less likely to take two or more than they are to take one (due to redundancies and build flexibility.) If only taking one perk from the category, the community's preferred choice is very apparent.
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3828886#Comment_3828886
Im not. Object is much more fun.
And focus on word choice instead of substance, fine by me. My 'proof' is experience and other word of mouth. Definitely not BHVR stats or nitelight BS.
You should learn to make more moderated statements. Do I need to tell you how it otherwise sounds?
I say what I mean. Your opinion of it can be whatever you want. Its all about your perspective.
I think that might have been their point for calling out your wording: Anecdotes are not enough evidence to have
"vehemently been proven false".One person's perspective and experience does not rule out someone else's, especially in a game with as many variables as this one.Its perfectly ok to have a conflicting experience vs someone else's, but that experience is not fact across the entire userbase. Hyperbole doesn't help bridge the gap between the two either, as it makes your stance more exaggerated and less relatable.
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@buggybug said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3828433#Comment_3828433
If you bring 4 aura reading perks and add ons then you deserve to have it all nullified with distortion, I dont see what kind of fun being revealed for every action I do with map offering like leries/rpd myers with boring hit and whack and proxy camp tactics. I would like to play the game and not be punished for actions that I am to do by aura reveal.
You know, if you step across the isle for a second, you'll find that many killers have the exact same complaint about Comms, something that SWFs can get for free. They don't like that any more than you like being revealed by auras that the killer needs to sacrifice space in their loadout for. Its almost like both sides have similar grievances when the structure of the game is changed against them.
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@Autharia said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3828862#Comment_3828862
A SWF wouldn't really gain from it they already are calling out where killer is if hooked. The perk is kindred that's 8-16m range on level and is countered by undetectable/blind.
Survivors would refuse to run kindred even after its massive buff it got a long time ago, that slot is permanently being taken up by WoO a lot of the time. That said, WoO makes a lot of its information redundant and is less limited, so its easy to see why.
This is why I suggested in other topics that WoO be brought in line with similar perks like Bond/Empathy/Kindred, it overshadows them so much that people just don't take them.
Edit: for the record, I am on board with having AFC progress on the hud, though not perks like deliverance -
@TragicSolitude said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3827817#Comment_3827817
SBMM would make sense if it took actual skill into account. Escaping doesn't mean you played skillfully, it means your teammates played skillfully. Hell, in a lot of matches it means one survivor played well and died while the other three skirted.
But in general it would be better if the system could be intelligent. Look at playstyles and put like with like. Newbies with newbies, team players with team players, lone wolves with lone wolves, casual with casual, etc.
The new player experience is abysmal. Probably the worst I know of in any game. It's amazing anyone pushes through it to learn to become decent. It throws so much at new players instead of introducing things gradually, and it puts new players in the position of getting stomped without understanding why or how they're supposed to play against it.
Yup, this is exactly why the hockey comparison became such a meme. There are a slew of stats that are collected on every match that would be able to supplement (or even replace) the outcome biased system. It could be made into a series of things like chase duration and frequency, emblem progress, even protection hits for survivors and power based scoring events for killers. There's potential for the system but it was just dumped in its simplistic
"only outcome matters"state.Also I agree with both of you about the new player experience, even for veteran players who take hiatuses it can feel pretty grueling just catching up with the changes
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@CleanseThis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3827411#Comment_3827411
You explained how those 2 identical perks act differently depending on which role you play (killer or survivor). For the survivor side it's immensely beneficial and for the killer side not so much. The current "outrage" of WoO is because of how auto pilot the perk is especially if you are new as well as experienced because it takes the overall game sense that one learns through experience and time and sort of just guides you where to go depending where you are on the map that's why it's unhealthy. It turns trash loopers into better loopers almost instantly.
I think you're confusing me for someone else. My first post in the topic was
@Ryuhi said:
WoO is OP because it provides too much value for a single perk slot, especially when compared to its cousin aura perks. Overtuned would probably be more accurate than OP, but it is certainly too strong for its metadata and lack of downside. Personally I'd just like to see it more in line with the other survivor aura perks instead of being such a clear and obvious choice.
My stance has been that its not exactly OP, but more Overtuned. It fills the role shared between other perks too effectively and without any drawbacks, but it doesn't need to be kneecapped. Just adjusted to be in line with its alternative perks. You also seem to understand my answer to your question so again, I'm kinda confused. I apologize for answering your question.
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@CleanseThis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3827237#Comment_3827237
Your making my point for me. If WoO was removed from the game would we see a spike in kill rates? enough to skew the data in the long term to where certain killers will need to have tweaks made to them based of the said data? idk but I wonder.
…what?
You asked how survivors get more value from WoO than killers did with old Zanshin, I answered your question. I don't see what that has to do with some bizarre scenario involving removing the perk entirely from the game. I don't even necessarily want it nerfed.
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@CleanseThis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3826360#Comment_3826360
WoO and old Zanshin were 1 to 1 perks. Do you think survivors get more value from WoO than killers got from old Zanshin if so why? if not why?
The data's value and importance was honestly higher for WoO than Zanshin, even though they were effectively the same. As long as they're not being zoned, survivors control the direction of a chase at any given time. That said, routing your movement in advance is one of the key strengths of WoO, while another one is managing resources that other survivors have already used. Killer also doesn't need to know which pallets are used/broken, because 99% of the time they were present when the pallet was used up, so that data becomes significantly less important to them.
They were very similar in terms of their data they provided, but both their application and potential changed significantly due to the functions/objectives of their role. Zanshin in its previous iteration still had its uses, and different killers got different degrees of value from it, but it was rarely enough of an impact to sacrifice a perk slot for on most builds.
Its easy to assume they were equal due to an equal impact, but consider this. If something is evenly distributed to two different people, there is a good chance they will have differing levels of usefulness. If you gave two people food and one of them was allergic, they wouldn't be able to get as much value from the food as the other person. Its just a matter of having different objectives and gameplay loops.
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@100PercentBPMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3825526#Comment_3825526
If WoO has too much value for one slot then surely Bond will be on the chopping block next
Bond, Empathy, and Kindred are all in line just under WoO. They can all glean similar metadata, but their core functions are not as strong, while they have drawbacks (requiring a shorter radius, requiring the teammate to be injured, and requiring a teammate (or self) to be on hook.)
Bond is already fine due to its short radius, so it wouldn't need any nerfs. Again, its just that WoO stands too far above its competition both in value and constant/average functionality.
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WoO is OP because it provides too much value for a single perk slot, especially when compared to its cousin aura perks. Overtuned would probably be more accurate than OP, but it is certainly too strong for its metadata and lack of downside. Personally I'd just like to see it more in line with the other survivor aura perks instead of being such a clear and obvious choice.
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@hermitkermit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3823169#Comment_3823169
Thank you for your insights. I believe this ultimately boils down to personal opinions on what is considered strong or valuable in the game, and I respect that we may see these things differently. From my perspective, having gens revealed at all times provides significant information that enhances a killers ability to plan, locate, and defend the main objectives of survivors. It reduces guesswork and allows for better map control, which I perosnally see as highly valuable. I get alot of value out of knowing where to be, and while some of it does involve guesswork, personally, it is pretty uncommon for a gen to hit significant progress and then be abandoned. At least in my games both as killer and survivor, if I come across a gen survivors have put alot of progress into, I can typically come back to it and find someone there time and time again, often resulting in chases/injuries/downs, which I am consistently getting value from because of my gen patrolling playstyle.
Regarding WoO, I fully agree that it's a strong perk. My point isn’t that WoO is weak or ineffective, I simply don’t think it’s overpowered. While WoO provides great information about pallets and windows, it still requires a perk slot because it isn't base-kit, can be somewhat map dependent if the map itself doesn't have many windows or pallets, and it demands skill to use effectively, which I believe balances out the value you get from it. In contrast, gen auras are base-kit and always available, and that information can be further enhanced with certain perks or certain killers if you want to focus in on them a bit more, which in my opinion helps to balance out the strength of the information provided by WoO in my view.
I personally don’t agree that WoO gives more info value than any other perk in the game, but I do think this has to do with just someone's personal gameplay as the value they will get out of a certain perk will be different in comparasion to someone else (especially different killers). For example, full aura-reading perks like Weave Attunement + Franklin's Demise or something like Wiretap provide full body auras, which I personally consider stronger than WoO because I have gotten more value out of both of those in my games. I also don’t mean to suggest that WoO is necessary to play well, and if that is how it came across, it wasn’t my intention. It’s absolutely possible to play without WoO, just as it’s possible to play without any perks at all. Afterall perks are designed to enhance gameplay, not dictate it.
In my original reply to the 1st person, (which was in response to someone else, and you’re the third person I’ve discussed this with—sorry if things have gotten a bit jumbled), I was comparing the criticism of WoO as a crutch to how similar criticism could be applied to gen auras. Some may disagree, but I think it's because they see the value of gen auras differently than the value of pallet and window visibility, not necessarily because the comparison is invalid. (no thought run to yellow, no thought run to red) I believe both provide valuable information in similar ways. The difference in opinion is more about how valuable that information feels to each individual player.
To put it simply, I think both gen auras and WoO offer useful information and good value, and I think that something that requires a perk slot should give good value, and because thers only 1 killer v 4 survivors it's fair that a perk slot is not required for that information. But I am aware that the value of WoO itself, just like gen aura value, can comes down to personal playstyle and preference. For example, some players might not care about seeing pallets or windows if they focus on stealth, while others might not value gen auras if they prefer a proxy camp or injure centered playstyle. And gen auras on a trapper may not be as valuable to him as gen auras for a wraith, just due to mobility, but I still think gen auras give value regardless, just as WoO will always give value but depending on who is running it that value will differ because it relies on personal skill. If WoO were base-kit, so all 4 survivors constantly had it, I’d agree that the value would be greater than gen auras, and OP, but since it occupies a perk slot, and still heavily relies on personal skill to be effective, I believe the trade-off for that valuable information is fair. We may disagree, and that is fine.
Ultimately, these are just different perspectives on what we each find valuable in the game. I appreciate the conversation and your thoughts, and how respectful you've been.
(edited to add in something I forgot)
I still disagree with a lot of that, but it's all stuff thats subjective, like you said. That and the courtesy are the two things I can definitely get behind, always nice to be able to disagree without it being an argument, even helps with getting into people's mindsets ingame based off the perspective.
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@adaw0ng said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3823540#Comment_3823540
It’s a pvp game, you are not supposed to sympathise with the enemy and think about what’s better for them. Fair enough you are not supposed to screw over your team (in this case would only work for survivor role since killers are solo UNLESS it’s 2v8), so your team’s fun might as well be your responsability. No survivor plays for fun of the killer and no killer plays for fun of the survivors and it’s fair deuce.
First definition of "Sportsmanship":
fair and generous behavior or treatment of others, especially in a sports contest.I feel like this concept is completely lost on this generation. In the days before the internet, doing DBD levels of BM would have gotten anywhere from an ass beating to being entirely removed from the game. You are not responsible for your opponents enjoyment, but you are supposed to treat them at least with respect, and hopefully be empathetic as well.
The only reason we've normalized bad behavior in pvp games is because there is often a lack of accountability for it. People line up around the block to ######### around but almost nobody has to ever find out. Its why this game has such a unique "get punished for the behavior of the opponent(s) in the last game" retaliation mindset. Everyone is contributing to everyone else's bad experiences, while nobody wants to admit or improve when they're being the problem.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3822909#Comment_3822909
I seriously have no idea where the WoO hate comes from.
I play Killer frequently and can never point my finger and say that "WoO lost me the game" when in most cases Im just playing poorly or getting outplayed. My only surmise is that the WoO hate comes from a lack of understanding or inability to accept that you just lose sometimes.
While I'm sure many of the people who have issues with WoO use it as an excuse like you surmised, it also can have somewhat profound effect when players use it correctly. Its an efficiency booster that also reduces the necessity/complexity of deductive reasoning. You can get almost all of its info without the perk, but you need to put in the extra work to see/plan/route your pathing when interacting with the killer. That increase in efficiency paired with the decrease in mental requirement is what I think most reasonable people have issues with. It gives tremendous value for a single perk slot, and its alternatives like Bond/Empathy/Kindred aren't even bad perks, WoO just outclasses them in almost every way.
Blaming it single-handedly for a loss is a bit hyperbolic, but people run it so much (both within its category and in general) because it is an exceedingly strong perk. For the record I'm not someone who wants the perk nerfed necessarily, but I do wish it was more in line with its alternatives both in terms of value and/or drawbacks.
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@hermitkermit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3822471#Comment_3822471
Gens may provide "limited" information, but location is vital, especially when gens are the main objective for survivors. Knowing where all gens are at all times is a huge advantage for killers, even without progress info. Constant awareness of gen locations is crucial for planning movement, defense, and finding survivors in general. When survivors aren't on gens, it becomes painfully obvious how vital that information is. For example, when two survivors remain and are hiding, killers can spend over 10 minutes trying to track them down. Many find this frustrating and shows how hard it would be to find survivors without constant gen location awareness—because gens = survivors.
WoO gives useful info, but it still requires skill to use effectively. It doesn't stop killers from using mindgames or other strategies to win chases. Both gen auras and WoO provide important map-wide information, and both can be game-changing depending on how you use that information. You say killers “waste” perk slots for extra info on gen progress, but survivors also have to “waste” a perk slot on WoO if they want to know whether the only pallet in a certain area has already been used. Without WoO survivors have no way of knowing this. (Excluding SWF of course because we're talking about the majoirty of survivor players, not the minority).
I don't think it's accurate to overstate the power of WoO and understate the value of gen auras, which give killers constant crucial information about the main objectives for survivors. Knowing where the main objectives for the opposite side are can absolutely make or break a game. One good Sabo to a hook, one good Discordance, can snowball or flip pressure completely. I think the reason killers have base-kit gen auras is the same reason survivors don't have base-kit gen auras. Because that information is very important.
First paragraph: That's a pretty weak assessment. Survivors and killers both can know where gens are easily without having any aura on them as long as they know the maps and tile spawns. You have to remember that the killer is trying to find up to 4 survivors at any given time: The gen auras give the killer guesses on where to go, they say absolutely nothing about survivor presence. They function as a vague objective: without any information on progress or occupation, every time the killer is making a guess when approaching a gen guided only by its aura (obviously they can make educated guesses based on tile layouts/3 gen setups/etc, but they are still guesses unless they have a direct visual line of sight anyway) so they don't provide as much information as you're insinuating. For perspective, imagine if WoO only lit up tiles with pallets(I'd say both pallets and tiles, but that would light up almost every tile, of course.) It didn't highlight the pallets themselves, just the entire tile that contains them. Thats the level of vagueness vs clarity in a nutshell. Your last point about survivors avoiding gens for an extended period of time actually kind of defeats your own point, especially with the gen kick limit: There is little to stop survivors from escaping/hiding the moment they hear the killer's terror radius (or has their position revealed through auras/chase indicators/etc) and the killer would only know if someone was there based on the gen progress (if any) and can often be discouraged from patrolling all remaining gens properly (be it due to the lack of survivor interaction, distance between remaining gens, finding someone with an aura perk/addon, etc.) They gain next to nothing from the gen auras themselves unless, again, they use perks or addons specifically designed for that kind of info. Without them, its still just a matter of patrolling and/or using other means to specifically locate survivors.
Second paragraph: I already stated that WoO is a perk that gets stronger the better the player is, and even said it doesn't necessarily need to be nerfed directly. I do have to mention regarding:
You say killers “waste” perk slots for extra info on gen progress, but survivors also have to “waste” a perk slot on WoO if they want to know whether the only pallet in a certain area has already been used.that you are missing my point entirely: WoO gives more value per perk slot than almost any info perks in the entire game, I'd argue even more than Nowhere to Hide or its cousins Bond, Kindred and Empathy (Though I will admit a case could be made for certain killer perks/addons paired with said killers.) You're also wrong about WoO being the only way to have that info: not only can other perks provide very similar info both directly and indirectly, but their primary functions are weaker than WoO's to boot. There are also multiple basekit ways to know that info (seeing debris where a pallet would be, knowing the tile and knowing that a pallet was supposed to have spawned in a particular spot, seeing an ally's aura via another perk while they throw it down or vault over it, etc.) so the necessity is a bit hyperbolic. People can play just fine and still glean a lot of its information without taking the perk, the perk just makes a lot of that info more obvious and considerably easier to process without having to rely on that level of deductive reasoning. Again, I think its an OP perk only because its value ratio is far too high, and don't necessarily want it to be directly nerfed. It just needs to be made to fit in line with the value of its alternatives.
As for your last paragraph, I completely disagree. You are the one overstating the power of basekit gen auras: Info like having an increased liklihood of a survivor being in that area is not guaranteed, and scratch marks/blood pools need to supplement that guesstimate to know if there even was a survivor there before you get LoS. Again, I would sooner compare it to the basekit auras of allies that survivors get while downed/hooked. This is also not even accounting for the amount of info the HUD update gives survivors now, while killers don't even have hook counters for survivors on top of all the other information they need to continuously account for while starting on the losing side of a time crunch. They're not on the same level at all.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3822337#Comment_3822337
No. You still have to spend time finding a totem, spend time blessing a totem, remain in the narrow area that a totem has effect anytime anything happens so your aura isn’t read, and relight the totem when the killer inevitably finds and snuffs it.
oh, and use it in a multifloor area, so both its range and the pathing distance required to reach it go up significantly. I thought everyone agreed by now that boons limitations are significantly diminished on a good chunk of maps (not all, of course.) in the middle of an open area? yeah they're still pretty much useless. But tiles and placement can make them quite a bit more useful.
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@hermitkermit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3822317#Comment_3822317
If your point is that killers, because they're solo, should have access to more information (like gen auras) while survivors as a "team" role (regardless of communication) shouldn’t have comparable tools, then we're not on the same page here.
My point is that the criticisms of WoO and gen auras are the same. People argue that WoO "makes it easy because survivors don’t have to memorize loops or tiles" When the same logic applies to gen auras: they "make it easy because killers don’t have to memorize gen spawns."
It seems like you're focusing on the "solo vs. team" aspect, but that doesn’t change the fact that both WoO and gen auras give crucial map info that reduces the need for memorization. The fact that killers are solo doesn’t negate that both tools (gen auras and WoO) help their respective roles in similar ways.
I’m not saying killers shouldn’t have gen auras, it’s very valuable info and the game would be much harder without it. But I also don’t agree that WoO is problematic because the same criticisms people use to attack WoO could be used against gen auras. It seems like it just comes down to your personal opinion that it’s okay for killers to have this kind of info but not survivors. That’s fine, but since the criticisms are identical, I personally don’t agree with saying one is fine but not the other.
I'm not trying to insult you or question your intelligence and I would hope you're not trying to insult or question mine. So if my messages come across that way, it's not the intention.
You would have a point if it weren't for the variable nature of gens. Basekit gen auras show absolutely nothing about gen progress, only the physical movement on the gen and its noise can be used to gauge progress, let alone regression status (only info on blocking is included basekit) while perks/addons need to be used for further information like that. The killer would benefit greatly from having that extra information, but has to waste a perk slot on perks like surveillance or addons on specific killers. Discordance is needed for info like if 2 or more are on the same gen.
Vaults are mostly binary, they're either there or not (though there is the variable on whether they are currently entity blocked of course) and likewise pallets can be either up, down, or broken (all of which can be gleaned from WoO of course.) Breakable wall status on top because why not? All of this information is provided in a way that allows for routing before/during chases, resource management information, general location of a chase if within the perk's radius, and even potential tile layouts (deduced by formations of auras , of course.)
By comparison, basekit gen auras are very simplistic, and offer little to no additional metadata. They can even get in the way regarding perks like BBQ. The only thing they give you is the location, if its done or not, and if its blocked or not. The gen aura is more comparable to basekit auras like downed/hooked survivors seeing their teammates/etc. Important, yet limited info. One could argue that the info WoO provides is still more than even gen auras augmented with perks/addons (unless stacked, which then ties into the build cost difference.)
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@Akumakaji said:
And survivors could also start not using that many offerings to stack the game artificially in their favor. Statistically there are many more survivor sided maps then killer sided ones, and I will take on any Pale Rose or Eiry or The Game that RNG throws at me … but if offerings are involved, this is an open declaration of war and I play as unfun and tunnely and brutal and unforgiven as I can muster.
Most often survivors are shocked and call me names for doing that … but they feel no remorse for using offerings on the next killer, to custombuild their loadouts for the occasion and stack it again in their favor.
Map offerings are one of the absolute WORST consumables the game has to offer, and I am 100% in camp "map offerings should ban its realm from the pool of available maps, not send you there automatically". Yeah, it would screw the fun Scratched Mirror Myers who need indoor maps to thrive, but thats the scrifices we need to make.
And this "hur dur, I just wanted to see something different, after RNG send me to the same map 3 times today" is such a weak excuse … especially if its followed by a thinlyveiled lie like "and I had no idea that The Game/Badam Preschool/The Eiry/Hawkings was survivor sided, I just like the visuals of that map". Yeah buddy, sure…
I know its a bit of a tangent, but my vote has always been on separating the map offerings into [Indoor/outdoor] and leaving it at that. That way for killers that specifically need indoor or outdoor (or survivors who specifically prefer one over the other) it would be a good medium vs cherry picking specific busted maps. We got rid of shards ages ago, its time to do something about map offerings, I agree.
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dbd community is so hypocriticalI agree
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This is common with a lot of games since the advent of dlc updates, even with mobas and fighting games. Always takes a lot of getting caught up on details if skipping over a few updates, and that definitely happens here too.
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Most people say SM is the worst thing to happen to the game, my vote is still on breakable doors. They're just lazy bandage fixes for a slew of map issues, some of which were even solved shortly before the introduction of the mechanic (only to then be reapplied because now they're breakable guys isn't that great?)
A mechanic that could have been actual geo-modding maps bursting through walls like the koolaid man turned into extremely poorly placerd locked doors that are arbitrary time wastes (for either side, depending on the map/door)