Ryuhi
Ryuhi
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@hermitkermit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3855744#Comment_3855744
Currently, killers can practice against AI bots. I think this is great, as killers can get the hang of their ability, timing, and experiment with various perk builds. While also equipping opposing perks on the AI survivor team. So they can also practice against perks or perk combinations.
Currently survivors have nothing comparable. I think being able to practice against various killer AI would be extremely beneficial and help survivors understand how to counter without worrying about letting their team down. Survivors can practice against the killers and also killer perks.
I think AI bots are a massive resource that is only fair that both should be allowed to benefit from it.I know killer AI is much more complex, but in the 2v8 modes when a killer DC, they were replaced with bots, which gives me hope that a custom AI killer bot mode may be possible?
Please consider it. It would really help survivor players, especially new players that are sortve thrown into the fire blind with no kind of tutorial or explanation for perks, powers or counters.
Thank you for taking the time to read!🙏
Its going to sound odd, but honestly, survivors already have the tool they need to counter individual killers: The exact same custom mode. Play as the killer in there, see how bots react to your power, and learn its nuances. You can then start throwing in perk and addon combinations to see how they change interactions with the killer.
I know it sounds backwards, but the #1 way to get better at matchups in games is to know your opponent. art of war and whatnot.
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@CautionaryMary said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3855752#Comment_3855752
First of all, there's a major difference between crouch tech (which helps a survivor miss attacks from making their hitbox smaller... While slowing them down as they have to pause, crouch, avoid attack, and move) versus hug tech that allowed Blight to maneuver easily hit survivors.
Let's not forget that Blight is categorically an S tier killer.
At this rate, any killer that you could feasibly crouch tech (someone mentioned Nemesis earlier as you can crouch tech under a pallet to avoid being hit with the tentacle) along with the fact you can do the same with Xenomorph.
I don't understand how dodging your enemy's attack is considered an exploit, but in any other game it's alright.
But then again, Hillbilly and Blight are considered up there with Nurse — so, I don't really see the issue for them having counters, where again the vast majority of the playerbase doesn't even know about.
So you're making excuses for why you get to keep your shiny thing while making excuses for why others can't have their shiny thing.
"I don't understand how dodging your enemy's attack is considered an exploit, but in any other game it's alright."
You are abusing an unintended mechanic, ducking to dodge hits is only for things like ducking projectiles, not for attacks where the camera is locked and they are unable to angle their attack downward. You are also misrepresenting the two by implying that hug tech was just free hits with zero skill vs understanding elevation differences and tapping a button at the right time with crouch tech. Both techs have skill requirements, both break the game's collision interactions in unintended ways.
You can be for or against these "techs," but at least have some consistency.
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@AlexXHunter44 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3855647#Comment_3855647
Person above me explained it perfectly, so I have nothing to add except it's so easy to see bias like this from hardcore mains of one side when you play both.
Do you think Hug Tech should have been addressed? The issue is a lack of consistency in which "techs" get addressed, and why. Crouch teching can completely nullify hits, which is certainly not insignificant for an action with minimal requirements or mechanical skill (its literally just a matter of routing and reacting.)
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3853339#Comment_3853339
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3853349#Comment_3853349
So, these responses always give an insight into how people think. Let me explain what I feel should happen in the "classic tombstone achievement standoff".
So, in this scenario, we have a double iri tombstone Myers, three survivors are already dead to the add-on and the last survivor is in a locker. Myers is standing outside and knows the last survivor is in the locker.
In this situation, the killer has said "I know where you are and would like to kill you by my own hand and get my achievement". The survivor said "yes, but I know the counter play to this". And now we get to the very important part that people seem to not understand:
The next move in this situation is the killer's.
Now, in an ideal world the killer would actually try to counter the locker counter play and grab, drag the survivor to a dead zone, and still have earned the achievement.
Maybe the survivor can still make it to a locker instead. This is called PVP.
So let's say this has happened, the killer has tried all of this and can't get the survivor to a dead zone. Or maybe they haven't tried anything other than standing there, menacingly. It doesn't change that that next move is the killer's.
With mature players, the killer will understand that the survivor is effectively playing to counter, and they won't get the achievement. So the only real course is to hook the survivor and go next.
I can't say this loudly enough, but if the match lasts for longer than a few minutes in this state, it's the killer who is showing poor sportsmanship.
Maybe the killer will hope that the survivor will gift them the achievement. But if it's been more than a couple minutes, that's obviously not going to happen. Once it gets beyond a couple minutes, the only options are that the killer has a sunk cost fallacy and doesn't realize he should cut his losses and try again, or (most likely) the killer feels entitled to the kill… and the killer is wasting the survivors time by not ending the match gracefully with a hook.
I can't say this enough: in this exact situation, the survivor is doing the only thing they can to survive, and the killer is refusing to kill. Anyone saying the survivor is in the wrong is way, way off base.
Speaking of insights, how did you feel about hatch standoffs? They were generally considered the survivor's fault for refusing to take the chance on getting grabbed, and we basically forgot about this scenario when addressing them. Now the killer is apparently expected to continuously grab and carry the survivor in the hopes of landing in enough of a deadzone (no other lockers nearby, of course) as many times as it takes to secure their win they already got. The match is over in this stalemate, the survivor's outcome is nearly always death. You're stretching the hell out of that <1% chance of them surviving somehow when they're firmly placed between the killer taking a single action to finish them vs dying to the server shutdown anyway.
The only way that anyone can ever survive that is if the killer lets them. And thats kinda the point many people have regarding the situation, the killer is expected to give them more free chances to escape the stalemate. Yet it's the killer showing bad sportsmanship for wanting the achievement, while the survivor afking and watching youtube videos is the victim? Prolonging the match (which they will not survive) until the 1 hour shutoff is not a "counter" any more than people DCing before bots to deny it was. It is just refusing to accept defeat and being spiteful about it. The irony is, as has been mentioned, preventing their achievement just subjects other survivors to the same playstyle, so the cycle continues until it ends with a non-spiteful survivor who happens to lose last
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The censor is great for extreme cases (racism/bigotry/self harm comments/etc) but it really doesn't need to be as strict as it currently is. Survivor names and common community terms for ingame events should not be censored so easily.
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@jajay119 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3852857#Comment_3852857
killers: Survivor perks shouldn’t ever be able to completely negate the killer’s power.
Also killers: lightborne, which completely negates a survivor mechanic, is completely fine and fair.
A lovely example of the disparity constantly shown here.
Survivor perks can be taken up to 4 times, which is a point a lot of people always seem to forget.
No, its not 4 vs 16, but the "16" can cause the same effect to happen up to 4 times. Having them be 1:1 strength would be a terrible idea for that very reason. The potential of 4+ flashlights/flashbangs is exactly why lightborn is as valuable as it is.
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@PetTheDoggo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3851645#Comment_3851645
I am killer main btw, I just hate hypocrits.
Both sides have reasonable players, entitled players, and many sore losers/winners.
I have talked about "Killers who cry", which seems quite specific to me, I am not talking about killers in general.
Simply if you run full meta build, try to tunnel and then complain on anti-tunneling perks, then it's just pathetic. But same goes for survivors.The issue is that perks can often be used for unintended purposes, including anti-tunnel ones. This is why people sometimes refer to it as "weaponizing" perks. The conspicuous action limitation helps with a lot of them, but they don't exactly do much about other interactions, like punishing killers who do switch targets with flashlights/flashbangs/pallet saves/etc during their "immunity" period. Its entirely possible for people to dislike the impact these perks can have while being completely reasonable about it.
I get that you were specifically targeting the scrubs, but its not always hypocrisy why people would dislike any category of perks, including anti-tunnel ones.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3848112#Comment_3848112
I'm not sure why you think this was unhelpful advice, since it's not only the answer to this issue, but was also recently buffed to be a much more common offering to obtain.
What exactly are you looking for if not this? Do you want the devs to remove map offerings?
Maybe fixing the maps that are problematic, and not making it so easy to force said maps in every game? Preferably without the killer needing to permanently glue sac wards into their builds?
That said, honestly yes, I know many people would prefer map offerings be gone when compared to how prolific they are now. I've recommended a compromise in the past (consolidate all map offerings to "indoor/outdoor" as certain killers and builds live or die based on that) while others have suggested map offerings be changed to avoid specific maps rather than guarantee them. Either one would be better than choosing between being stuck in unfavorable maps every single game, or never using any offering other than sac ward.
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Considering how often sound bugs have happened in this game, I would not be surprised in the least.
That said, there is next to no inherent advantage in the FoV options available. You're trading direct vs peripheral vision, while many people use the setting to try to stave off motion sickness.
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@PetTheDoggo said:
Antitunnel perks are equally as crutch as slowdown perks. They are not…
I would say both are required to use, if you want to win majority of your games.
Killers who cry about antitunnel perks are just sad they lost, because of it.This is correct, but that last bit of bias wasn't really necessary. Both sides have scrubs who try to blame anything but themselves for their losses. Both sides also have people who are perfectly reasonable who still think issues (including the side the play less of) are important.
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@doobiedo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3849955#Comment_3849955
Sounds like a fair trade off for being the "power role" and having the game mechanics literally skewed in your favor.
So in other words, you don't have an actual argument concerning the double standard. Got it.
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@Dwight_Fairfield said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3849996#Comment_3849996
That's just not true. None of it. For a start relying on the stupidity of survivors not being attentive to his terror radius (which he never relied on btw) has nothing to do with maps. Stupid survivors oblivious to their surroundings will be stupid on any map. Second sneaking in micro stalks at loops is more time consuming and far far far less efficient than what he can do now by basically getting tier 3 ready to go after 7 seconds of stalking at a distance, which is far easier to do now because they don't even see you, and if they eventually its too late. Every single map has the potential for that too.
Outdoor maps don't present that issue. All of them, every single one, has spots where he can sneak stalk from a distance. Obstructions don't matter because most of the time they're not even being used against him because they don't even notice him stalking from far away. Whereas before he had to get close to get good stalk and was much easier to spot, and those obstructions could be used to block him, and he'd be running around these loops trying to get slivers of stalk every time a survivor popped into view for a couple of seconds. Far less efficient than what he can do now.
So again I can't wrap my head around what you're saying because its just not the reality of the situation. Please if anyone can show me otherwise with some gameplay examples I'd love to see it. Otherwise this is just agree to disagree because its just getting repetitive now. I don't agree with one iota of what you're saying because its just not been the experience of myself or the plethora of other people I have seen playing him.
okay, take a deep breath and agree to disagree. I already stated multiple times that I am not a doomsayer who thinks everything about him is worse. I have acknowledged the change is only bad in certain situations. I agree that there is little to be gained by going back and forth on this, especially when we agree on a lot about his changes.
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@Dwight_Fairfield said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3849981#Comment_3849981
If you're talking strictly about indoor maps then yes I agree its been made tougher on them. Its still doable, again you can watch that video I posted for some good tips from a pro Myers player on it. But its needlessly awkward and that's why I think they should buff the up close stalk multiplier to 0.6 or 0.7 at least. That and change his iri add ons because their current stalk necessity is absurdly hard. 400% is ludicrous.
But in regards to the maps I was looking at your "Unfortunately there are entire maps where inverting the stalk rates will hurt him quite a bit more than actually help. If anything it kinda makes him rely more on map offerings than he already did" comment. Before the outdoor open maps were tougher because it was easier to see him coming and run away. Whereas indoor maps he thrived because he had easier times getting close to survivors unnoticed. Open maps make up the majority. Now its the opposite for him. He thrives stalking on open maps, and its tougher on indoor maps. So most maps in Dbd are now good for him. If anything he's far less reliant on map offerings than before.
He's always needed map offerings for manipulating getting indoor or outdoor maps, but the ratios were designed so that he stalked a lot faster at closer ranges, I.E catching survivors who are not attentive regarding his TR, or sneaking in microstalks where he knew he wouldn't gain ground being looped. Both of these issues were worsened in exhange for making making him rely more on long distance stalking, which can both be countered easier (further and smaller = easier to block LoS with obstacles) and requires him to close more distance when he gets his 99 (as opposed to being directly behind someone at a loop to get his 99.)
Basically every situation where he is forced to stalk up close, which is why I centered around indoor and corn maps. This is why he is more map reliant now, because before it was just trying to get indoor for specific builds, while now he specifically wants outdoor maps with both minimal obstructions and vantage points where he can blend in better while stalking. Before it was more about indoor vs outdoor, now there are more factors that matter and vary depending on his build. And since people absolutely love using map offerings for whatever busted map they want, he needs to be able to mitigate the maps that are especially bad for his current build too.
Every map has close range stalk potential, while multiple do not have long range stalk potential. It helps him more when its there, and hurts him more when it is not.
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@Dwight_Fairfield said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3849975#Comment_3849975
How are maps actively worse for him than before. Before he had to get up close to them to stalk efficiently and they could see him coming and run off before he could even get close enough, and make distance which made his stalking worse. Now you can stalk far away, find all kinds of sneaky vantage points to stalk them, and 99 that tier 3 and they don't have a clue they're even being stalked. Whereas before you had to be close to them and was far less viable. Getting out of tier 1 pre update was even worse. The tier 1 buff, moving at Huntress speed now and only needing half the stalk you needed before to get tier 2 has been another significant quality of life change that's made it so much easier to play him now.
Again this has been my own personal experience as well as the experience of every player I have witnessed playing new Myers. Stalky boi, Farmer John, D3ad plays, Zubatlel, SupaAlf etc. As well as a bunch of lesser known content creators and Mikey mains like Dookrai and jjpokey. None of them have been struggling in scenarios some people here are claiming are issues. So I still don't get these complaints. That's why I'd love to see some gameplay.
I did not just say maps, I said indoor maps. I also implied that there are multiple maps where stalking from a distance is simply not possible, meaning the stalk he is required to do up close is worse than it was before. If I specifically mention maps like Lery's, will that help? Big part of why I mention corn maps is because there is very rarely any elevation that is not extremely visible to the survivors, so there are no real vantage points. Many of these maps required more close range stalking simply for the average visibility distance to stalk with, not necessarily only because it used to accrue faster at close range.
I do not think that he is worse on all maps, not at all. Maps where there is verticality that doesn't stand out absolutely benefit from the change, like ormond, autohaven, and crotus. But on corn maps there is little ability to stalk at a distance without elevation, and you stand out like a sore thumb if you get any. Likewise with indoor maps you generally only have a longer LoS if you're looking down a long hallway, so most of your stalking will be at closer range there as well.
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@Dwight_Fairfield said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3849964#Comment_3849964
If you read past that first sentence you quoted you'll see me address indoor maps. But if you want some good tips as well as actual gameplay examples for how to play indoor maps efficiently then here you go;
https://youtu.be/UqOjI4tX5vA?si=mGKL3amoyYJow_w2
As for corn, it's not an issue since they neutered the Coldwind maps. The most problematic one from before, rotten fields, is the size of a shoe box now.
I did read past the first sentance, and didn't see anything about indoor maps until the very bottom, which I admittedly missed the first time. As for the corn issue, it still applies regardless of the map size. My point still stands that some maps are actively worse for him then they used to be with this change, and that the statement I was responding to is not exactly accurate.
Edit: I should mention I agree with a lot of the rest of the post, and it's not an attempt to try to undo your argument by addressing it.
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@Dwight_Fairfield said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3849608#Comment_3849608
It's easy to stalk and not have them see you because you're far away. Plus as a survivor you don't know what team mates he's been stalking or for how long. You're taking an awful risk running up into his face. I don't doubt you ran up to a Myers and did that but I am calling skill issue on the Myers' part there. But then a lot of Mikey players make foolish mistakes like that when it comes to utilizing his power. The most common one being popping tier 3 when you can't guarantee a fast down instead of making sure you have them out of position or have caught them off guard when you pop it.
Aside from my own personal experiences playing him extensively since the update I have yet to see any gameplay from any content creator or streamer in general who has been struggling to get stalk off survivors. A lot of videos have been posted showing how doable it is. I'd love to see some evidence to the contrary.
Saying all that I do still think they should buff the up close stalk multiplier, but only because indoor maps exist and can make it needlessly awkward. On indoor maps Myers should be at his most threatening.
It's easy to stalk and not have them see you because you're far away.
And what about indoor maps? Did they ever update his stalk to work through corn? (honestly don't remember, but I remember that being an issue as well.)
Unfortunately there are entire maps where inverting the stalk rates will hurt him quite a bit more than actually help. If anything it kinda makes him rely more on map offerings than he already did.
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Interesting how a lack of alternatives to sidestep the penalty works. Killers have always been "forced to play the game as long as possible" even when they want to leave the match. They either DC/AFK and get DCed, or they finish the match. It has been suggested they get the ability to quit early with no penalty like survivors currently can, but the fact of the matter is any player leaving early is disrupting the game, ruining it for the other 4 players.
This is why it has a scaling penalty that goes up the more often you DC: Once occasionally because you have an internet issue or emergency is perfectly ok, especially since it will likely take longer for the IRL issue than the starting penalties. Do it too often? You get punished for ruining other people's games. See no reason why you should have to play out games? You should probably play a different game, preferably something either single player, or with drop in/out so the game can continue with or without you.
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@ChuckingWong said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3849926#Comment_3849926
You cant point to the "exact same kind of streaks and challenges on survivors side" when that number is not in the several hundreds or even thousands of win streaks(Supaalf).
Go ahead and point us to the win streaks [comparisons] emphasis on sample size and "s" though and it will become apparent there is one side clear out in narnia with several hundred for kill streaks and the other is barely reaching 20 escapesI never understand why people try to use the "killer potential win streak is higher" perspective when its apples to oranges. Even the best coordinated groups will always be less coordinated than a single killer. Even the best teams are not sharing consciousness like the borg. Killers have a lot for one person to keep track of vs having 4 people to share important data, but they are only limited by their memory and strategy in that case, while 4 people need to both coordinate and play perfectly to reach the same level of consistency potential. One player having an off game or a connection issue or anything is all it would take for the other 3 to lose the streak alongside them.
I get the "big number scary" intention behind said comparisons, but its always important to weigh potential vs actual strength. Very few killers will get anywhere near the records for multiple killers, especially the ones with high skill potential/requirements.
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P100 isn't an issue. The rate of iri addons/items at their bloodwebs IS though
You see it more with survivors (since they are basically just a skin) but even P100 killers make the consumable aspect of their strongest addons more of a suggestion as they can run whatever they want pretty much every single game. Either way, the rarity formula needs to be narrowed so we don't see at least one syringe and/or iri hatchet every single match.
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The only legitimate reason to avoid certain killers is due to accessibility issues, like photo sensitivity/emetophobia/coulraphobia etc. Even those are better treated with accessibility options instead of just being able to avoid playing against them altogether. Wanting to avoid specific killers for any other reason is similar to killers demanding to be able to opt out of (or even just knowing) SWFs in their matches. Both suggestions for selfish reasons would tank queues for either side with much less gained than lost.
I often see these suggestions about overplayed killers like wesker, but seeing people want to never pair with wraith says a lot more about their familiarity of the game and lack of adaptation than a serious balance suggestion.
@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3849666#Comment_3849666
You mean, in addition to being able to already avoid lobbies with flashlights, toolboxes, or nea?
Don't get me wrong, I don't think we should put in a system like this at all. But at the same time, why is it suddenly an instant "give me a compensation buff" literally any time someone recommends any change at all. That's the definition of entitlement.
Keep in mind, its a much bigger deal to ban entire killers than it is to see items and skins. Just think about all the swfs that will basically use their 3 bans each to never see a top or even mid tier killer again. The impact of such a choice is much higher, and would better equate to having SWF pairing info in the lobby, which will likely never happen.
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@Doxie said:
Or just make the last two survivors be able to recover after slugged one time as base kit. Killers still get their last Mori options but have to earn it. (Sorry didn't read other responses if it was mentioned before)
Why should killers have to "earn" their 4th kill mori after already having won, but survivors be rewarded (for free) for all being downed? Thats kinda backwards. The killer has already won, they already "earned" their victory, while you're proposing the survivors not have to "earn" their second (or third, or fourth, whatever its up to at that point in the match) chance after already having lost?
At least try to compromise and say that they have to have a certain emblem score or something to be granted the self pickup, that way its at least actually "earned?" And yes I know that things like 4 man slugs exist, but that is a checkmate scenario that can (and should) be prevented.
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@smurf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3848580#Comment_3848580
This is interesting. It's been a long time since I've seen multiple survivors teabagging in the exit gate at once. Do you see this often?
I'm a 90/10 survivor main, mostly because of hearing and vision problems making killer a much harder role. When I do play killer, its often very late night/early morning for my area, so I rarely get opponents as casual. And since I don't get 4ks very often, more often than not there will be at least one player who refuses to win gracefully. Their teammates usually join in when they know they are untouchable. End game chat/console messages are also a factor but obviously that affects either side and depends on platform.
But yeah, there is a metric ton of ego in this game's community. People regularly being disrespectful regardless of winning or losing. No two players are the same, but there are certain patterns that definitely exist.
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@Grigerbest said:
This perk is similar to DS with this - when the killer isn't tunneling, you basically have an empty perk slot.
Once you get the killer who's not tunneling - you'll get the full picture.
I think a lot of players on the killer side would get it, if you were to compare it to their similar predicament:
Its similar to hex perks that get cleansed before they can even have any effect. You're taking the perk in the hopes it will get value, while said value is not guaranteed. The only reasons I consider that worse for hex perks is because almost none of them provide as much value even when able to exist, and perks like DS can create a "hesitation" with their threat, regardless of their presence. That said, you always have to accept that either may literally do nothing, while It can often just come down to luck of the draw.
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@smurf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3848558#Comment_3848558
Your assessment is definitely not wrong :/
Honestly though, I play a decent amount as killer and almost never get teabagged at gate anymore. Maybe it's that my playstyles don't lead to survivors gloating? But seems to not really happen now. It could be a combination of having very few matches where more than one survivor is around once a gate gets opened, or that if I'm not actively in chase as I approach the gate, I'll do one of two things: (i) approach from the side to see if I can catch someone off-guard, or (ii) go to a place where the survivor(s) can see me and meme at them.
But as survivor, there's no way around the endgame mori. You're right that the numbers can giveore info. Anecdotally though, I don't even remember the last time I was given hatch. Feels like it doesn't happen anymore.
While your statement about not being able to avoid the mori is technically correct, I think people downplay the way killers can "avoid" the survivors refusing to leave and continuing to taunt. Yes, the killer can swat them out, but that can be up to 8 hits and blade wipes. Then you also have things like heal teching to save survivors who don't even position properly to fall out of bounds as they land. The EGC timer is half the duration of the bleed out one, yet it also can be doubled (therefore equal in duration) when someone is down, on a hook, or in a cage.
So no they are not equal in that regard, but the difference can be much smaller than people realize.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3847139#Comment_3847139
It's funny, because survivors implied that the Exposed part would make this perk unplayable. Clearly they're still not seeing that trading a hook state using strategy is game breaking. They're smart enough to see that killers are tunneling and complain about it, but they're not smart enough to use this perk effectively. Whatever it takes to make the survivor role sound unplayably weak, that's the narrative they're gonna stick with.
That last part about downplaying one's own role is the worst part, and both sides do it. Hyperbole makes your stance both less relatable, and less credible. You see it with things like kill rates and 4 man SWF frequency all the time. Its part of why it feels like so many people across every DBD community seem to create their own little echo chambers instead of actually working with the other side to fix each other's issues.
On topic, its another perk with a high skill floor and a stupid high skill ceiling. Many will misuse it and call it trash (and it will be trash for their playstyle) while others (especially coordinated ones) will get absurd levels of value from it. In its current state, I expect to see both sides complain about it (for different reasons) regularly.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
I'm almost certain they've been debating the issue internally. Sac Wards getting dropped to Common rarity could possibly be a sign of more things to come. It's no guarantee, though.
Mentioned this in another thread, but I really hope its a step in a bigger rework, and not just a bandaid fix with no other changes. They tend to get complacent with these types of fixes (especially when well received) then just don't circle back to the underlying issue for a few years. I really want them to prove me wrong.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3847688#Comment_3847688
No, they're basically the same, because you're getting 4 kills. The bunch of time wouldn't be wasted if hatch didn't exist as a free insta-escape for whichever survivor happened to be the last alive. I think the hatch being in the game so long, and people accepting it as normal, has warped your minds. If you would just imagine a game without hatch, suddenly the killer trying to get 4 kills is just normal, and he's doing what he has to do to get it. But that's exactly what's happening now, and y'all won't accept it because you're letting hatch skew what the end of a match ought to be. It's such a an uninteresting and bothersome mechanic. And it may be less BP to have someone bleed out, but it's more BP to get the 4th sacrifice. You see the logic flaw?
I absolutely hate the hatch mechanic from both perspectives, but until the devs find a way to fix the issues it prevents (if ever) it is unfortunately still necessary.
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@smurf said:
Absolutely agreed. The game is much less rewarding on average as a result of the finisher mori.
It literally incentivises slugging for 4k, and it's really starting to feel like the killer equivalent of teabagging at the gate in the sense that once some killers have won the game, they then go out of their way, slugging for 4k, waiting for others to die on hook, waiting out bleedout timers until there's just one left, all to get the free mori. Then, once they've already got every other survivor out, the finisher mori is feeling like the killer just showing off and saying "Look, I won and now you have to watch me do this."
This is all on top of the fact that the finisher mori gives all killers a basekit ability that removes last-chance perks and abilities that could on rare-occasion lead to a dramatic escape. And now I also almost never see any killer other than myself give hatch or a gate. This mechanic has had a very negative impact on my experience.
feeling like the killer just showing off and saying "Look, I won and now you have to watch me do this.
Almost sounds like how killers have been complaining about safe tbagging in the exit gates and being forced to swat them out. Not going to get much sympathy from the killer community with that one. Both sides have always and (unfortunately) will always have ways to BM and waste other players' time.
In all honesty, I'd love to see the data for how much/little hatch escapes have changed since the introduction of the finisher mori. Bad experiences tend to stand out more than good ones (especially when trying to form a hypothesis) so it would be interesting to see how much people are over/under representing the change's impact on 4ks.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3846421#Comment_3846421
You're not getting an extra hookstate, it just transfers one.
That said, it is more to keep track of, since the game still does not have hook states visible to killers, which is a change that absolutely should have come with the introduction of this perk. At this point that info is less valuable than most of the things added to the survivor hud, and now you have to throw +/- variables (hook state transfers) as well as who has used the perk and who hasn't.
Honestly I just think its a bad perk from a design standpoint. Its either too strong or borderline unusuable depending on your team. Its just an effect that should not have been handled this way.
Edit: it also kinda encourages killers to camp and trade rather than spread hooks and seek new targets. Either the killer downs them again quickly and chews up another hook state, or they go after the unhooker and basically have a soft Make Your Choice without the distance requirement (or even bringing the perk.) We should be incentivizing spreading hooks and punishing camping and tunneling, not the other way around.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3846448#Comment_3846448
I sincerely hope, that this is not the case.
The positive reaction is because this is change signals that they are finally looking into the matter. The problem isnt solved in any way.
I get that, but from a programming perspective it is much easier to rework a mechanic than to introduce a temporary fix and then a complete overhaul. Look at killers like Freddy or more recently SM. They get thrown into the trash for up to years at a state they know is very sub par while allocating the planning and resources to eventually rework them. Introducing a temporary fix is the equivalent of putting the issue on the back burner, and makes addressing the issue take both longer and more resources.
Also remember, map offerings are nothing new. The issue is that there are specific maps that stand out as being either killer or survivor sided, and people are able to pick them with very high consistency. Maps are basically just another thing to stack in your favor before the match starts, and have been for quite a while. They could (and should) have been working on a proper rework of the mechanic for years if they had any intention of addressing it, but this change (while better than nothing) does not show signs of being one step in a bigger process. I'd love to be wrong though.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3846443#Comment_3846443
Im with you on this. However, i take this over nothing happening at all. This is the first time that BHVR has adressed map offerings since a loooooong time.
oh absolutely. The issue is that the change being well received will make them complacent with how map offerings work currently, and discourage them from allocating the resources to reworking them completely. The real danger of bandaid fixes is that they can be left on a festering wound far too long.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3846410#Comment_3846410
It does actually. It lowered the rarity, making them more accessible. This results in them being usable every match.
This means, that fair map selection is now a lot more readily available. Great change!
You still have to sacrifice your offering to be able to use this offering, which is also still consumable.
The issue is that some maps are always in a busted state for one side or the other, and that players can somewhat reliably force those maps to be selected, especially on the survivor side (due to 4 offering slots.) This is just a bandaid fix to allow people to more frequently attempt to prevent that, when it shouldn't even be a thing in the first place.
Map offerings need to go the way of moon and splinter offerings, or at least be replaced with something much less specific (indoor vs outdoor, preventing specific maps instead of guaranteeing them, and so on.) It should not cost a consumable of any raraity just to prevent getting guaranteed busted maps in most of your games.
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@fixblitzskin said:
So if I understand correctly isn’t clean break a 100% worse version of a syringe.
Syringe lets you heal yourself over the course of 16 seconds with no broken for “free” I say free because it’s a addon and not a perk like clean break
Clean break you have to heal someone which takes 16 seconds to activate (as much time it takes for a syringe to heal) then it takes 60 seconds to actually apply the heal while having broken.
Why would any survivor mains ever bring this. If survivors dump all there bloodpoints in their favorite character ( which often is the case ) they always have access to use a syringe every game. So why waste a perk slot if it can be an addon? Maybe if they want to bring a flashlight or a toolbox instead of a medkit but at that point is clean break even worth it if you can bring a toolbox Gen rush perk or flash light perk like champion of light.
Conspiracy theory: anti hemorrhage syringe will be nerfed to something else and this perk would fulfill its role
»If survivors dump all there bloodpoints in their favorite character ( which often is the case ) they always have access to use a syringe every game.
That should not be a thing just based on how rarity and power are scaled, yet here we are. Similarly, killers should not have access to iri addons every single game, yet that can be possible too.
Having an overabundance of what are supposed to be the rarest and most powerful consumables in the game completely throws off balance potential, and hurts the casual userbase, as well as the competitive userbase since they will see them pretty much every game (so rare, wow)
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@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3844422#Comment_3844422
Main building is super weak, what exactly is the nerf that you are asking for?
Its still plenty strong of a time waste for M1 killers, just like the saloon. Not exactly a lot of mindgame potential.
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Nerf the main building, buff the rest of the map
It suffers from the same issue as the saloon, main building is busted while the rest of the map sucks. Always leads to the most predictable outcome based on the location of the chase.
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seems legit
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Survivor - Looping skill
Killer - APD and Colorblindness (no, the settings don't fix everything.)
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@mecca said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3841484#Comment_3841484
Maybe I'm just a terrible survivor with no skill, but hoping a window vault or a pallet is right beside you when he uncloaks doesn't sound like fair counterplay to me. Either he needs a terror radius while cloaked or his lunge needs reduced.
I mean, solo Q is a game mode that should be balanced properly and not dismissed.
Again, you're being hyperbolic. You do not need to be next to a window or pallet to not get hit by wraith, especially if you hear his footsteps and snarl/see his shimmer/have any awareness as he approaches. And exhaustion perks do counter his uncloak lunge, when used correctly. He often needs to cancel his decloak and chase until the sprint ends, catch up and look for a pallet/window to bodyblock, then uncloak and go for the lunge. Again, this is all counterable by proper pathing, not just using map resources.
Learn from it or don't, but there's a reason this wraith op sentiment usually gets laughed at.
(also, TR while cloaked? Lunge distance reduced? Those are horrible suggestions.)
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@mecca said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3841481#Comment_3841481
Especially in the 2v8 mode, they buffed his movement or uncloak speed. Unless it is server lag, he has managed to hit me every time through sprint burst. Explain why a killer should be able to silently approach a survivor and if injured get an easy down?
You don't balance games with high MMR survivors while also dismissing high MMR killers, which has fundamentally destroyed balance in the game.
The so-called "community" that seems to dictate balance are full SWF teams that play killer. This is why those opinions should be dismissed. It's not even a secret anymore that solo Q is unplayable and it's due to balance.
The point of playing high MMR is so that you can see how people counter you, as I mentioned. Wraith has multiple counters, some of which are even mentioned in this thread.
as for your claims about "full SWF teams that play killer(?)" you're looking for an excuse to dismiss info you don't agree with. Adding a random woe is solo Q comment at the end is not an argument, just a tangent complaint.
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@mecca said:
He is overturned. You realize quickly something is wrong when he can start uncloaking and he can still manage to hit you through sprint burst. Unless there is a pallet within 6 meters, he will hit you every time. Nobody defends him unless they are killer mains that enjoy free hits all the time.
If you are sprinting as he is uncloaking, your pathing would have to be terrible to get hit, even at close distances. His slow down during the uncloak would put you well out of range of his lunge if you are actually sprinting (SB/Lithe/BL/etc)
Then again you think he's overtuned, so I guess I'd second the above recommendation to play him, climb up to high MMR with him, and take notes on how he gets destroyed so you can use that info as survivor.
Also the implication that only killer mains think he's weak (wonder why they wouldn't know how strong he apparently is?) is pretty broad too, most of the community on both sides generally agree that he is one of the weaker killers (though few would call him the worst.)
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@Thusly_Boned said:
Sorry, no can do. If the result of the match is still in doubt (at all) and I see you trying to self-sacrifice, you're coming off that hook. You're obviously not respecting your teammates, so I am not going to respect your wishes there. And you're not entitled to a free pass, if you want out that badly, eat your penalty and leave the team a bot.
I'm not really sure why this is so hard for people to wrap their brains around - all kinds of crap happens in game, we all know it, and if you're not prepared to play the hand you're dealt, don't queue up. Don't. Do. It.
Play something else (preferably single player) and stop acting like your time is so much more valuable than everyone else's.
And everyone has at some point been the reason someone else wanted to bail on a match. We all should remember that when considering bailing.
I know the word gets thrown around a lot, but it is quite literally entitlement. People who quit matches and ruin the game for the other 4 players put their own personal enjoyment above the game actually functioning properly. They leave when they aren't enjoying themselves, and refuse to take the bad with the good. It's just childish behavior, taking your ball and going home, etc.
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@indieeden7 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3838923#Comment_3838923
If crouch teching is so punishing for those killers and nullifies their powers to a borderline broken degree, how on earth are Billy and Blight considered some of the best killers in the game? Surely if it's so easy to counter their powers, they should barely be getting any kills. Because it's not like people don't know about crouch teching.
The majority of survivors don't even know what crouch tech is, let alone when/how to use it. It also isn't always possible, depending on the location of the interaction. It should be addressed because it straight up robs the affected killers of hits, you'd be hard pressed to use unrelated statistics to address that. Its an exploit that needs to be acknowledged and fixed, much like many of the others have been.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3837684#Comment_3837684
They should have implemented a hard cap on progression and regression speeds years ago (and move speed, vault speed, etc).
Stacking effects is generally a problem in this game for both killers and survivors when taken to this extreme. But having a maximum cap to charges per second that can be gained or lost would fix this without really affecting players who aren't stacking this kind of build. One toolbox in a game isn't game breaking, for example, but 3 used on one gen can be.
Now, how they communicate in game to the player that they're hitting a cap is something they'd have to work out. Otherwise you have to just do math and check a wiki or something with no in game feedback that the mechanic even exists.
Absolutely this. The extreme cases for both survivor and killer have needed to be hemmed in for a very long time. Gens are especially a subject that need to have their +/- extremes addressed.
That said, I think a lot of people are missing the point, mostly because of who it came from. I get that his personality and ego can be kinda irritating, but I'm pretty sure the point of this match was showing that the survivors did the gens about as fast as cooking instant ramen. That type of extreme is the issue, it was less than 3 minutes before the last gen popped, and that was with someone on hook (they even tried to 4% to boost the efficiency which gets mistaken for trying to go next, funny enough.) That shouldn't be possible regardless of strategy or build.
Also I noticed a lot of people commenting on his build, but he regularly plays user submitted builds, sometimes people even snipe then get him to sabotage himself with the build they submit (which could certainly be what happened here.) Without watching his stream I wouldn't know for sure, but that is a thing he does.
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In the past I would have said no, but after the release of the survivor HUD update, there is very little reason not to provide that information to killers. The tunneling argument is pretty weak since, as others have said, there will always be people who tunnel anyway, regardless of the info. That and if they are tunneling, there is an extremely high chance they are already counting hooks in the first place.
At this point its just a QoL thing. There is a lot to keep track of mentally for either side, and since most survivor HUD info includes statuses to completion for various tasks, hook counters would be a similar change.
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It wouldn't be DBD if the hook screams didn't implore the neighbors to call the police
seriously though, they're way too damn loud
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Is this where we're at now?
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@devoutartist said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3835782#Comment_3835782
sure but that being Saied i've personally had many runs where i get like 50 plus winstreak with low tiers killers not even trying some of em are even vs a couple bullies squads i've play both sides and i have the same sentiment of what op is saying the game currently on killer is not hard in general(relative to ppl like you saied) it's to the point i barely run any slowdown anymore outside of doc
there are so many ways to play currently that make you win more in general than anytime before and survivor haven't change on how they play science then dawn of time(mostly speaking when all the broken stuff got removed like perma hook infinites ect ) on top of soloq being in shamble i do think dbd is in a really bad spot currently in general btw i have 90% of my surv p3 and about 60% of my killers p3 just to give some context so im not new and the way i've p3 them is i play them till they are p3 so i don't just funnel bp onto them and get the experience with them outside of nurse lmfao console nurse is a nightmare don't wonna to bother i do think something need to change funny enough tough i do think the way they implemented 2v8 fixed about 90% of the issues the game have with the class system outside of slugging
I kinda already addressed that. Again, if you're not exaggerating you have considerably more lenient matches than many players. Matchmaking trends vary considerably between regions, MMR, even time of day. Some areas get casual matches during the day but only sweatfests at 3am. Sometimes a killer dodged and now the matchmaking backfill ruins MMR rating matching, one player might be high/low MMR while the others aren't, there are plenty of factors that can cause people to have wildly different matches from each other.
and thats fine
Anyone can have any perspective they want considering balance, especially from first hand experience. That said, it says absolutely nothing about the experiences of other players: I see a lot of players on both side complain a lot about things they have full control over, but refuse to learn how to handle properly. If the kill rate is 60% and 40% of survivors are escaping, that overall blanket statement completely disregards factors like loadouts, compositions, opponents, maps and of course individual skill.
So basically "I find killer easy" doesn't mean much to anyone but your own personal experiences. And even then, you would need a pretty large sample size to be able to credibly make that kind of assumption, especially as they are designed to start with bad players and get matched with better or worse opponents the more you win/lose.
Also again, if your matches continue being too easy, then you'll win a lot and get paired with better survivors who will make it harder.
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@09SHARKBOSS said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3835771#Comment_3835771
thank you for the clarification
if its a lose lose situation then go for the lesser loss which may just be ending a chase or not hitting a gen but if its guarding gates then id recommend you pretend to leave so your terror radius goes away then come back very shortly and if the light is on then happy hunting
if you could give me more lose/lose situations id gladly try and give advice for them
A good example would be when someone is down under a pallet, while multiple survivors are nearby with flashlights. You can't scare them off and they have two (or more) avenues to punish the pickup, so you have to abandon the pressure and hook and try to bait one of the other survivors into overextending so they can get hit with minimal chase. The lesser evil response in this case would be to switch targets to whoever overextends closest, but the situation itself's only positive outcome is that at least 2 survivors are off gens at the moment (that said, up to 2 ARE on gens, while your time is being wasted.)
Some common lose/lose scenarios have thankfully been removed, such as the old FTP/Buckle Up combo, Boil Over+UB/Exponential/ RPD upstairs library, and the classic old DS/UB, but basically its any situation where you have no "correct" option, you just have to pick one and mitigate as much lost time/pressure it costs you.
coordination can often create these scenarios, things like perk synergies or strong items like syringe and styptic addons. I'm not going to begin to pretend that extreme case examples are the norm in each match, but it can be particularly debilitating when those types of time wastes happen that halt all momentum in those interactions.
This wouldn't be as much of an issue if it accounted for the entire survivor team, but often it only takes 1-2 to create multiple interactions that can create these scenarios. Their effectiveness always depends on the number of remaining survivors, which is part of why strategies like tunneling are the answer. Same as how slugging is the answer in the pickup scenario earlier, camping can be the smart answer if gens aren't being worked on and survivors are hovering to make the save, etc. These strategies aren't necessarily the first choice for every high mmr killer, but you'd be hard pressed to find any that don't need to apply them occasionally as the matches unfold.
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The Scissorman. Give victor some proper clothes and a garden shearer.
Oh and Jennifer of course :)
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@devoutartist said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3834790#Comment_3834790
he's not tough it's not that hard to get a high winstreak as a killer when you're good at the game the fact that 2k plus winstreak exist is at itself the proof in the pudding when you're good at the game as a killer
- yes, it is that tough to get absurd winstreaks (like the 2k example people love to throw around because big number scary.)
- Being good at the game is relative. Like I said, you should be playing opponents who are either on your level or better as your MMR goes up. They have to win a lot (in apparently impossible circumstances) to get high MMR in the first place, so they are likely going to be the players who adapt to hardships instead of complain about them.
- a 2k win streak existing means absolutely nothing about the overall performance of literally anyone else in the game than the person who gets the streak, and in order to get said streaks they need to play very carefully, and have a very strong ability to adapt to both advantageous and disadvantageous situations.
THAT SAID, it will always be easier for one person to coordinate with themselves vs 4 players with varying levels of coordination. They also often need to build specifically in ways to prevent counter strategies, watch for stream snipers, etc. Basically they need to line up as many advantages as possible, while preparing contingencies for anything that can go wrong. 99.9% of the player base are NOT getting 2k kill streaks, just like most survivors are NOT 4 man death squads. Do not focus on extreme examples and normalize them internally.