Rogue11
Rogue11
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- Rogue11
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Youre welcome to make a 20 column spreadsheet including every single change. While youre at it why dont you throw in maps and survivor perks and you'll get a much clearer picture of overall balance trends for the last 10 years.
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@CosmicScarab said:
Current ruin is absolutely not stronger than old ruin. Old ruin meant you HAD to hit great skill checks, tap gens the entire match, or cleanse the totem, which is significantly better than it is now. Even experienced survivors won't be hitting great skill checks every single time, if they did, every single one would run hyperfocus. Neglecting to include when certain perks were at their strongest (Pop at 25% total progress for 60 seconds or DMS at 50 seconds blocked) also makes the list seem disingenuous and cherry-picked.
Ok lets bring back old Ruin. Ill happily take that over consistent value from the current version and I hit most greats anyways. Now keep in mind Ruin and Pop were basically the only gen regression perks at that time. We now have 10-12 very usable ones on top of having undying / thrill to make Ruin even more consistent.
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@SpyUA said:
Old ruin is definitely stronger than the current ruin so overall it's a nerf, needing to hit only great skill checks is insanely strong compared to auto regression at a higher rate.
If youre playing against experienced survivors, old ruin did nothing. Do you need strong regression perks against inexperienced survivors?
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For some reason survivors being dismembered, tortured, and otherwise murdered is less controversial than the slightest amount of cleavage or underwear that isn't a black void.
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@Mr_K said:
Temper tantrums are not to be rewarded. DCing and giving up against disliked killers is not the correct approach. It should be punished not rewarded.
Cool, so we should add more safe pallets to Gideon Meat Plant since I get a killers who DC on that map all the time
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@Doctor_Xenomorph said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4101714#Comment_4101714
ehh- timezones can factor in a lot. What 10pm is for some folks, for others its right when they get on. Plus - lets just be perfectly honest - a good portion of the playerbase plays this game past 3 AM.
Anyone honest who has played longer than a year can tell you queue times were instant for survivor during the day and the opposite at night for the vast majority of the game's history. This isn't consistent with that past. We're also over a month since Jason's release, with a new survivor released since.
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@coldflame said:
surv players dig their own graves on this by consistently abusing every anti tunnel option that gets added, 15s+ elusive would be used hyperaggressively
How can things be abused that are usually canceled within 2 days of PTB announcement based on fearmongering by streamers that primarily play killer. What actual anti tunnel option has even made it to live servers?
Also, how can elusive be used hyperagressively? Hyperaggressive hiding?
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4101683#Comment_4101683
Watch Lithe becoming a problem after Sprint Burst is nerfed.
Its been kind of wild seeing 6 second survivor queues even at 10pm. I guess they no longer care about the experience if they can just lean on play while you wait to make up for no one wanting to play survivor?
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Sprint Burst is suddenly a problem after 10 years but tunneling is not..
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@random1543 said:
I still give the worst rift pass to whatever pass this one was.
I love stained glass windows but I don't think I'd ever want to wear one…
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Probably because no one played it last time
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@indieeden7 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4101238#Comment_4101238
I think that they were a lot worse than this rift, with the exception of Yun-Jin's
Yea agreed. I wasn't trying to use them as a positive example, but I see how that impression could have been given xD
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@indieeden7 said:
IMO they need to stop trying to make all the cosmetics related to a single aesthetic, they only started doing it a short while ago and the rifts since this change have all felt underwhelming. Not to mention the fact that a vast array of characters, all with their own distinct personalities, all receiving very similar outfits diminishes their uniqueness quite a bit.
It could work if the themes weren't mostly unappealing. remember the stained glass window dresses from last year??
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Ugly masks are the new obligatory back accessory with every outfit
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Kind of surprised it was left untouched after making all survivors spawn together. Huge nerf to early game progress.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4099675#Comment_4099675
I'm hopeful killer will get more next year if the event returns, without it being as obnoxious as remote pallet breaks and remote hooking. Since it's different dishes, it'd be great to have totally different ideas each year.
Killers should also have to do something to get their effects. I rarely escaped event mode because it destroyed survivor efficiency while killers just got an extra chase power for free.
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@Angy_Quentin said:
My brother in christ. You get a wesker situation and want to go back to nurse all day?
Jason is a good killer. He really is. But his chase power is severely skill based, his map traversal power has specific spots where he can appear and he suffers from high walled maps like any other ranged killer.
His addons are too strong, i agree, but his basekit is completely fine.
Wesker doesn't start every chase directly behind you with a mountain of free information, haste, and a ranged attack.
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@coldflame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4098481#Comment_4098481
why are you making this thread telling killer players what to do then, if the onus is on the devs to change it?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4098483#Comment_4098483
i'm not sure what's 'skill issue' about it, tbh? i play 60/40 killer, i know what it is like to be on the delivering and recieving end of tunneling, and very often i will win games because a killer tries to hard tunnel me and i juice them long enough for my teammates to do gens.
Because when they last attempted to change it the oceans of killer tears made them abandon it in 2 days. So the same entitled killers saying "the onus is on the devs to change it" are also doing everything they possibly can to prevent the devs from changing it. Which comes across as rather disingenuous wouldn't you say?
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@coldflame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4098448#Comment_4098448
i am not obligated to intentionally throw the game in the hope it makes my opponent potentially enjoy it more
That's why the devs are obligated to implement systems that make tunneling less effective. It's also why no one believes killer mains coming here every patch to say "if you dare nerf ________ i'll have to tunnel" when everyone knows they already just do it because its easy.
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The problem is they usually dont buff killers in ways that makes them interesting to go against. We get make a wish rework myers that destroys any semblance of the character's identity and turns him into another brainless dash slop pallet smasher.
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Builds like this or Krasue with Dissolution, while not strictly overpowered, are extremely unhealthy for the game. Removing all aspects of skill from chase shouldn't be possible for either side. I feel the same way about survivors that run Windows/ 5 steps ahead and essentially follow the RPG quest arrow from resource to resource.
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I think its been worse since the event started. Feels like the banquet tile messes with gen spawns
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@dangersmymidd1ename said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4096864#Comment_4096864
Yeah I think it's one of the worst things to make it seem like exploiting the most OP killer with miserable builds is impressive - it's because of these creators that the strongest builds are used within hours of a killer being released instead of killers slowly learning what might work or not. 4 slugging everyone at 5 gens takes no skill and is just setting a bad example.
Yea its weird seeing them morph into what they used to criticize (comp dbd and treating normal matches like life or death).
I also miss when everyone didnt immediately have access to the same meta perks on new characters. It was fun for the first couple weeks to work with whatever perks you managed to unlock. It made me try different builds. Playing vs a new killer on day 1 with everyone already running 4 hexes or pain res/grim/dms gets old pretty quickly.
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@NightWolfsFury said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4095968#Comment_4095968
This is why I miss old school DbD (right before the killer-sided patch where total design philosophy permanently changed), before there was heavy focus on forced game play and 40/60 rates. I miss the old 50/50 philosophy. Yes, it had its own flaws, ESPECIALLY with the pipping system, but it allowed everyone to have fun. Survivors could run less sweaty builds and loot chests or do other things and killers didn’t feel so inclined to run a ton of gen slow down.
Yes, if killers really wanted to sweat they still had to, but the game as a whole felt more party game-like, how it was designed. Ever since they’ve pushed for this competitive aspect, I’ve fallen out of love with the game.
Many of my games would include me memeing or messing with people somehow, whether it is trying to befriend the killer towards the end of a match, letting myself die during end game, or even spearing people as Deathslinger and nodding while reeling. I don’t see that stuff anymore and so many less players participate whenever I try to play more relaxed. They would rather take the competitive advantage of me “throwing”, essentially. Just not really meant for me anymore.
Well said. And its been sad watching many streamers who used to spend most of their streams making goofy builds, or made up fun challenges. But now they're all doing "comp" tourneys or "winstreaks" stomping on average survivor teams with the most unfun possible playstyles.
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@iloveandhatethisgame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4096611#Comment_4096611
I wish someone could make a list of all times the content creators called the new perks op and problematic just for the perks to turnout to be mid or trash. Bloodrush was one of them, dramaturgy was being called “old deadhard”🤣, reassurance got a ton of complaints probably more but I find it hilarious
Reassurance was the ultimate gas light, because they claimed they only wanted it nerfed on behalf of the poor solo queue survivors. Because a swf will definitely keep reassuring a random just to troll and throw a match and not 99.999999999% of the time use it to combat camping and tunneling that occurs in almost every match.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4096661#Comment_4096661
Yeah, thats the issue. Aside from Springtrap, every Killer released for quite some time has been a powercrept version of previous Killers. E.g. Dracula is an example, I have no problem with Dracula, but it cannot be denied that he has more going on than other Killers.
I also dont understand some design choices. E.g. why Jason lets the Survivors scream despite them using Perks to avoid screaming or when they are in Lockers. Sure, crouching as counterplay exists, but if I look at Doctor for example, who has a large chunk of his power resolve around screaming, he might get 0 information from Survivors just being in Lockers on his static blast, which also has a lengthy cooldown.
Or Huntress, who is a fine Killer, but is 4,4 m/s and has to spend time reloading, while Jason is 4,6 (only 4,4 on paper) and can reload without spending much time and therefore without losing much distance. (Let alone that Huntress has one of the worst map mobilities while Jason has one of the best)
I have problems with Dracula. Why is wolf form just a better wesker power with basekit Haste? And on top of that mobility + teleport + a better version of Nemesis's entire power? Honestly idk why people give him a pass. He was the beginning of the absolutely blatant "here's a better version of multiple previous killers' entire kits slapped onto a new license" design. I don't particularly enjoy DnD Vecna, but he's infinitely more balanced for a killer that has multiple abilities. I asked a P100 Drac main for help countering his chase and was told my best strategy was "pray".
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Would be cool, although the portal map Borgo is terribly designed.
I always thought having a unique spot on each map where any killer could activate an environmental mori would be cool. Like something with the operating theater in Lerys for example.
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Feels like when Blood Rush was the new spooky OP survivor doom perk on the PTB and even after it was reworked no one runs it.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4095809#Comment_4095809
If you wipe out skill expression, what's the point of even having human opponents. Just have AI killers and call it a Co-op PVE. You can make it as unbalanced as you want then cuz the AIs arnt complaining, lol. Its the high skill expression that brings ppl to the game to begin with. Seeing clips of deathslinger shooting through a chain link fence makes ppl wanna try it themselves. No one comes into this game going "I wanna run in circles in a predictable way 3 times before getting hit by a pallet". If you wanna strip out the skill expression... just strip out the player too.
As far as your winstreaks goes... thats what happens when you have no skillbased matchmaking. The high tiered players would bully pubs in quick play on any game. We just ONLY have the quick play unlike other games.
People confuse something being overpowered with skill expression. Putting 200 hours on Nurse and consistently stomping survivor teams with 1000s of hours isn't skill expression. Working within the limitations of a killer's power is a skill. Outplaying survivors that have actual counterplay options vs "turn your brain off and hope she misses" is more skillful than mastering a power that breaks the game.
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Yes I do this as killer during the event too. Unless you're an obnoxious BM'ing survivor.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
I rather have them than have them not. I DC very rarely (last time when 2 teammates DCed, I did not want to play with 2 Bots, so I DCed as well. Did not get a penalty, since it was the first DC in a very long time), but I have the feeling that there would be way more games with DCs if there would be no penalties.
But I hope that they improve Bots at some point. Because as one of the Survivors still in the Trial, it makes almost no difference if you are one person down or have a Bot, they are really THAT useless.
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@Abyast1 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4095433#Comment_4095433
"if you can't play a killer without all the information in the world"- see the insane pivot you just did. It went from " oh but you can use a perk to be able to use his power" to "you can't cope without permanent wall hacks". His power is useless without information, which you agreed, and then tried to say "oh but other killers have the same requirements" which they don't and now you've resorted to adhomnym attacks without actually having a decent conversation.
Im not against balancing, infact most the posts give 3 nerfs that should be done against him. The balances you have suggested would gut him and require him to have a perk just to use his power. So let me address you with the same respect you have shown me:
If you can't play against a killer without them being unable to use their power and have to gut every marginally strong killer without even attempting to learn their counterplay, its understandable why you're so hell bent on gutting him
"I can't use my miniscule cooldown infinite duration stealth mobility power unless im constantly handheld exactly where to go to immediately start another chase with a massive advantage. And i refuse to use by brain or perks to synergize with mobility powers the way you would with half of the current killer roster. Please dont let go of my hand BHVR. Survivors should just watch the grass moving and not do literally anything useful in order to counter me"
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@Abyast1 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4095407#Comment_4095407
I can't think of a single killer that can't fundementally use their power without a perk. There isn't one. No amount of game sense changes the fact this would make is tp fundamentally useless, and now your shifting to "well you can run a perk which can allow you to get some value from your power". This is top tier rage baiting if I ever saw it
If you can't play a killer without all the information in the world constantly handed to you, and refuse to use perks to augment that weakness, its understandable why you're against balancing him.
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@MashedBroccoli said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4095407#Comment_4095407
oe turns off aura the milisecond you go into power. Once again play the killer before you even think about thinking about balance. Its clear so many people in this topic haven’t played as him a singular time.
It’s all just reactionary nonsense to hens getting a winstreak with an insanely busted build.
Wow its crazy how Spirit, Demo, Freddy, Sadako, Springtrap, etc., are able to lose auras briefly while teleporting and still easily track and start a chase with another survivor quickly, but Jason players….can't.
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@Abyast1 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4095375#Comment_4095375
"the ability to go cross map at high mobility in complete stealth is not useless"- the ability to go across the map blind, see nothing, and have to appear at pre-destined spots is basically useless on its own.
The 4 hexes build needs touching, outside of everything else. And he gets the info because without it again, his power becomes useless. Because hes then in a worse spirit phase.
So throw on BBQ, Tremors, or any of the plethora of aura perks and suddenly you have all the information you need.
Or just use your game sense to predict what gens survivors would be working on. You know, like most every other killer on the roster.
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@Abyast1 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4095362#Comment_4095362
the scream goes off no matter what I believe if your within 3m, but the rest shouldn't. Might be wrong on that, don't quote me.
I agree, I also don't want every aspect of his power nerfed, I was just pointing out that one of the nerfs you were asking for was a bit much, and would essentially make a part of his kit useless, which would mean other parts would need to be buffed to compensate at which point we get another ranged killer with an insane ranged attack and has some form of mobility (although itd be near useless if you couldn't see stuff)
And OE already gets limited information, you can crouch to remove any and all information it gives, and allows you to choose which survivor he goes after (which no other killer does btw). Doing either of these makes the power useless because either theres no downside to survivors just stopping everything and he loses power (making it useless) or he gets no info in his power (making it useless)
The ability to cross map at high mobility in complete stealth is not useless. Limiting the information or duration might force people to run something other than 4 slowdown perks or 4 hexes as he currently essentially gets several chase and tracking perks basekit.
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@Abyast1 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4095200#Comment_4095200
Agreed, but part of your statements wrong. Theres definitely nerfs to be had but:
"infinite mobility"- but can't do anything in said mobility unlike other killers and it is projected when he uses it to the whole team.
"Infinite information"- you mean he can see you when your doing an action, and you can deny it by stop doing an action, so you can choose who takes chase.
"zero reload slowdown"- he gets locked in an animation and can only reload at specific areas (theres much less scrap piles/hooks than lockers). A decrease to scrap piles spawns sure, but if you loop him he shouldn't both get punished by going away from the loop to reload and a slowdown, he has 1 hit and has to go out of his way to reload, he doesn't also deserve a slowdown.
The rest i agree with, they need to cut the time of haste and exhaustion, and hit some of the addon's, and a scrap pile nerf sure.
I dont want every advantage/aspect of his power nerfed. I just wanted to point out he gets a bajillion things handed to him every 12 seconds and its too much compared to other killers. I personally think the spear is fair, but exhaustion/turn back the clock add ons need to go, as well as haste when he already starts chase directly behind survivors with killer instinct and a ranged weapon. OE either needs limited duration or limits on the information it gives.
Also idk if its bugged but I've been getting jump scared even while crouched and sitting still.
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He doesn't need 25 seconds of haste + killer instinct + bs exhaustion add on + turn back the clock add on + infinite mobility + infinite information + zero reload slowdown on top of starting every chase with a massive advantage and a potent ranged attack. Holy handholding BHVR
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@Zakon05 said:
Because BHVR keeps making the same mistake that the community does.
They need people to play survivor, and they think that survivors think winning is fun. This is the same trap the community falls into when they say survivors only like playing vs low tiers, while ignoring survivors hate a lot of mid-low tiers, like Clown, Hag, Trickster, Legion, Skull Merchant. Meanwhile there's mid to high tiers that people generally like, like Hillbilly, Wesker, Dracula.
Survivors like having agency in a chase, they like being able to predict and counter what the killer is doing, they like being able to utilize multiple forms of gameplay styles from aggressive looping to stealth.
Why can't we get people to play survivor 2v8? Because getting pincered isn't fun. You can't survive that except through dumb luck. You can make survivor the most OP thing ever and people would still rather play killer because as killer is always fun. It can be VERY frustrating due to horrible maps and other gameplay mechanics, but the act of playing the role and all the various killers is fun, survivors only have fun if the killer is one that lets them express their game knowledge and prediction skills instead of limiting their options in chase like a Clown bottle or something.
The pallet density update was this personified. Made killer more miserable to play and required them to make killers with absurd mechanics like Ghoul, new Myers, and Krasue in order to keep up, didn't actually make survivor more fun to play because the new killers are frustrating to play against.
Black Banquet? Let's give survivor some of the most egregious BS this game has ever seen. But then killers get a poison vial that's a Clown bottle and it no longer matters how survivor-sided the event is, nobody likes being snared to walking speed.
Pallet density came AFTER years of bs powercreep in new/reworked killers, not before.
It also followed years where we were repeatedly told by killers that we couldn't:
- Balance massively overperforming killers that outclass the rest of the roster
- Add any guardrails to prevent the match being forced into an unwinnable 3v1 asap
- Have a functioning matchmaking system that consistently puts winstreak streamers against teams that have a chance to compete
Also, there's nothing fun or agency-giving about playing survivor and being chased in a deadzone. Like literally nothing. And same as killer. I never think to myself "wow I really outplayed this person" as they get to decide between looping 2 barrels or a tree.
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4094716#Comment_4094716
invisibility makes a constant ringing noise directionally and the grass moves AND it leaves blue splashes.
The real issue with this event is the map spawns, they learnt NOTHING from the blood moonIve been told for the last 2 weeks to just watch grass moving to counter Jason 🙃
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4094149#Comment_4094149
"If survivors play poorly and badly, the killer gets to kill them" what a shocker.
Is leatherface a problem too because he can do that?
If leatherface had 30 chainsaws that he threw at you nonstop he would be
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One more thing to mention, the banquet table tile seems to be messing with gen spawns. I saw some horrific 4 gens created because the banquet tile took the place where a gen would normally balance out the spread.
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@Carth said:
There is a huge difference between "remote hook", "remote pallet break" and auto-win the chase "invuln, invis, heals at random times". The equiv would be if a killer event had a "press Q while looking at a survivor in your line of sight to teleport them right into your face and melee range".
remote pallet break / abra cadabra exposed were pretty close to the same level of stupidity. but the on demand invisible into portal teleport across the map is beyond dumb
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I'm not having fun on either side. Survivor = Jason every match because he bypasses most of the food buffs and adding giga hinder on top of his kit just no.
Then I try to play Henry and start chase → instant invisible → instant teleport across the map. Like OK?? What am I supposed to be doing here?
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Agreed only on the point that WoO and now 5 Steps Ahead are extremely unhealthy when it comes to encouraging pre-dropping every pallet with Google Maps the perk. But both sides are getting handheld too much with information when it comes to things like Nowhere To Hide & Lethal Pursuer making killer similarly braindead in terms of tracking and game sense (or Jason's entire kit lol). His overall point is absurdly killer biased considering the killer releases we've had in the last 2 years and how blatantly overtuned they are. Myers rework is the definition of "turning your brain off" killer design. We've had multiple new killers released with AI and/or autoaim in their powers.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4091817#Comment_4091817
since it’s pretty much unanimous amongst the community that the old lighting/atmosphere of coldwind should be brought back
For real, I dont think anyone actually prefers daytime Coldwind. I used to joke a few years ago that the game is becoming brighter and brighter every year and at some point they should call it "Dead in Daylight". And then they dropped the Coldwind Farm rework and it being in daytime…
I really, really hope that the graphical overhaul gives it back its old atmosphere. Lighting on Coldwind was never an issue to begin with, the bigger issue has always been corn blindness until they fixed it, but the brightness of the maps was never problematic.
Its weird how I remember people being so excited about the daylight coldwind just because...different I guess? I always hated it
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Because proxy camping needs to be even stronger and require less skill /s
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@ScottJund said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4091551#Comment_4091551
Why do people keep saying he has no cooldown? His power has a 12 second cooldown after leaving Omnipresent Evil with a jump scare. The load time is time spent walking to a spike setup/hook, which is RNG. Yes, it can be perfectly on route so he loses no distance, but even a 2 second detour is massive distance loss in a chase.
Oh no, not lost distance when you start every chase directly behind a survivor with a powerful ranged attack, 25 seconds of haste, killer instinct, and a bs exhaustion add on…
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@TurnOffTheTVs said:
It's funny people want to argue that this killer is balanced meanwhile I'm having the easiest time of my life winning games as him.
It has nothing to do with him being new, Jason isn't this uber unique killer that takes months for people to learn how to play against. We've seen ranged killers before, only difference is that Jason circumvents EVERY single weakness ranged killers are meant to have. He doesn't need to walk up to people giving them time to prerun and maintain distance, and he's 4.6 for an egregious amount of time after coming out of omnipresent.
He's fundamentally a piss poor designed killer.
Ranged killers have existed in this game for years and yet it doesn't matter, people can't do ANYTHING in chase. The only time people win chases is when I, myself aim like a bot. The counterplay to Jason boils down to "Hope the Jason player can't aim". There's no real interactivity. And because it's like that, people are too scared to take chases which is why everyone feels like they have to crouch around stalling the game out for an eternity.
Straight up the only game I've lost was going against a literal DBD clan SWF with all meta perks which yea, I could be playing Jesus himself I wasn't winning that game. Every single other game is 4k's unless the hatch spawns on top of a survivor because oh funny he's also amazing at finding hatches, who would've thought.
Who was the 2.08% survivor that escaped?
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4090896#Comment_4090896
Compare to new killers she is becoming outdated.
This is a problem with new killers, not Huntress