Reinami
Reinami
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@Junylar said:
That was SWF. If you played against 4 soloQ players, you would get your 4k at 3 gens. The core balance issue here is SWF, not gen speeds.
Its not SWF vs solo. It is simply efficiency. I play exclusively solo queue when i play survivor. The amount of times that i get hooked, and i see someone crouching in a corner of the map, someone doing a chest, and another "hiding" nearby to immediately unhook me before the killer has a chance to blink is astounding.
If survivors just "did gens" in solo queue, those matches are a breeze for me when they happen, but they are rare.
The SWF illusion is that you can pick your teammates, so you know that they are usually going to be doing something useful.
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@SunaIIanu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3728641#Comment_3728641
Matches with dcs are excluded, the Devs said that multiple times.
My point was not the general escape rate but the difference between SWF and Solo. While I agree that the killrate would probabaly be lower without the matches with an insta suicide, that can't be an explanation for the relativly small difference between SWF and solo escape rates, because hook suicides happen in both modes.
Also, stats like yours that are talking from the while population are always going to look a bit different than stats solely taken from experienced players (e.g. Nurse) but that is besides the point for this discussion.
But it does explain it, because SWF are likely not insta killing themselves on hook.
I want you to really stop and think about the data that is presented. Yeah, DCs are excluded sure, but obviously insta hook suicides are included.
Really REALLY think about it. The data is SO infested with insta hook suicides, that Skull merchant has a 70 PERCENT kill rate. This says that if someone queues up as skull merchant there is probably a >50% chance that people just immediately give up. I can certainly say that is the case in MY experience when playing skull merchant. I can queue up for 10 games as skull merchant, and i'll probably actually get to play maybe 3 of them if i'm lucky. That is how prevalent it is. And if you look around these forums it has only INCREASED since they removed depipping. After all, if i think we are going to lose the match, why not just get myself into the next game as fast as possible? There is literally no penalty for doing so.
I would like to see them release that data, for games where no survivor attempts to do a 4%. I would bet that the escape rate is MUCH higher in those games.
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@SunaIIanu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3727280#Comment_3727280
They did separate between all MMR and high MMR for the SWF stat and except for high MMR SWF (like I mentioned) the difference was still really small, so whats your point?
You know that the results look different for high MMR. But besides that, you think that everybody complaining about swf is high MMR?
My point is, the SAME data, that this person is citing, also says that skull merchant is the most overpowered killer that has ever existed and that nurse needs buffs so she can be on par with some of the much stronger killers like freddy and myers.
My point is, either you believe that the data is accurate, and that what i said above is true, or you believe that the data is inaccurate. The fact that skull merchant is listed as having that high of a kill rate tells me that lots of people still immediately just give up against skull merchant, leading her to get "4k" because everyone just kills themselves on hook. If that is being included in the data, which i suspect it is, don't you think that maybe the reason that escape rates are so low, is because it is included matches where the survivors just immediately give up? Or where someone DCs? I would imagine that escape rate is highly correlated with giving up. I'd bet that the vast majority of games, where someone kills themself on a hook immediately, results in a 3 or 4k.
So because the data is showing that about SM, it is reasonable to conclude it is showing the same for escape rates. When that is in play, i'd imagine the "true" escape rate, where people actually play out the whole match, is actually much higher.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Could be a good thing. I think it's encouraging that someone like Hens who actually plays and understands the game at a high level is part of the program. Would love to see Dir3wolf (head of DbDLeague) get an invite. If it prevents DOA perks and powers from being released, then it will ultimately be a positive. I think it's BHVR acknowledging that they have an experience gap that they needed to get some eyes on. Certain things get released that are obviously broken to an experienced player right from the jump, like Skull Merchant, original CoH, FTP+Buckle Up, the Twins rework (PTB, but still), etc. This could help prevent those instances.
I think its the opposite, this is not a good thing.
The problem is that a lot of these top content creators are heavily biased toward survviors. And that isn't a "tin foil hat conspiracy omg survivor main" thing. It makes a lot of sense. If you just go to youtube and you type dbd survivor RIGHT NOW. The first 5 videos you see are:
- "Buckle up is getting nerfed" and then 20 minutes of someone using Buckle up FTP to bully unsuspecting killers
- "I created the most evil survivor build" that is a normal compilation of that content creator bullying unsuspecting killers
- Casual, "short" 2 hour otz video
- Another classic bully compilation
- "This survivor build RUIN killers" yet another, lets bully killers compilation.
Most survivor "content" is them bullying bad killer players. It's why that whole conspiracy around "smurfing" came about. I'm not commenting on the smurfing just explaining it. But the point is, survivor content is all about bullying bad killers and killer content is usually tutorials, videos about the new killer, challenge videos that they probably threw 20 games trying to get footage for it, or going AGAINST these bullies.
On the killer side of it, just type in "DBD Killer" into youtube and what do you see?
- A "What is this cool thing about every killer" video tier list type thing
- Challenges video like trying to get 5 stacks of pentimento.
- Overview of the unknown's power/perks/addons
- Video going against a "TOXIC BULLY SQUAD"
- Video from a less experienced player showcasing dredge play (evidenced by the fact that the perks they are running are bad, and they don't even have their perks maxed out, showing they likely don't have all the good perks yet)
So, the point is, content creators on both sides of the main spectrum have an incentive for survivors to be, quite frankly, "overpowered". Because their content is either about using that overpoweredness on killers, or by killers beating these survivors despite them being "overpowered".
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@AetherBytes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3727499#Comment_3727499
The fact you only got half the perks right makes me unsure whether or not you even play enough to have an opinion on this matter.
Part of it is the fact that the person is using custom perk icons so it made them look a bit different.
But it certainly does show how bad alien instinct and friends til the end are when i thought they were the only half decent perks those killers had.
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What you do is stop taking bad perks like friends till the end, alien instinct, haunted, and retribution, and bring 4 slowdown perks so you never get to that point to begin with.
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Sluzzy alt account?
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@SunaIIanu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3726425#Comment_3726425
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/42WT63DJ10FX/image.png
They did a few months ago, and the difference ist not that big (excluding high mmr 4man SWFs)
Oh, you mean these same stats:
- Executioner: 60%
- Hag: 60%
- Artist: 60%
- Xenomorph: 59%
- Blight: 59%
- Wraith: 59%
- Nemesis: 59%
- Legion: 58%
- Good Guy: 58%
- Twins: 58%
- Oni: 58%
- Cannibal: 58%
- Clown: 58%
- Deathslinger: 57%
- Trapper: 57%
- Trickster: 57%
- Demogorgon: 57%
- Singularity: 56%
- Huntress: 56%
- Ghost Face: 56%
- Nurse: 55%
- Hillbilly: 54%
- Doctor: 51%
- Overall Average: 58.50%
So when are we going to be nerfing killers like skull merchant, who is obvious the most overpowered killer that has ever existed in the history of DBD. And when are we going to buff really weak killers like the nurse to be as strong as some of the much better killers like… "checks notes" … Freddy?
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@Groglin5000 said:
I am just wondering this because anytime anyone suggests anything being added to the game that allows the survivors to kill the killer or even just fight back (other than flashlights or pallets.) When asked, DBD players usually say "no because being able to kill the killer makes the killer less scary" or "no because that is unrealistic and the survivors can't fight back against killers," but like, in every horror movie ever, the survivors eventually fight back and confront the killer. That doesn't make the killer less scary, and it isn't even unrealistic. Plus, the Friday the 13th game has an option to fight back against and kill Jason, but that doesn't make him any less scary and he's still pretty unstoppable. Plus, being able to kill the killer would add variety into the game. Like, what if you were able to unlock a weapon during endgame, the same way a Hatch works, but it is a special weapon that you can confront the killer with, and once you take down the killer, you can sacrifice him to the Entity or something like that. Idk but either way, why are DBD players so against putting in a way to kill the killer? After all, getting revenge on the killer for killing your friends is the best part of any horror movie or the Friday the 13th game.
I wouldn't say i'm opposed to it, but in general this is actually something that makes DBD unique in the genre. Other games usually have ways for the "survivor" (whatever they call them) to fight or even kill the "killer". In dbd, the only recourse survivors have is to run.
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@100PercentBPMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3725420#Comment_3725420
SSometimes you don't need or want time,what you sometimes need is something to pierce the enemy's defenses and establish a stranglehold. Against a safe team, having all the time in the world just amounts to a stalemate.
Sometimes you need a Lil somethin somethin to get the ball rolling.
The entire game is a function of time. Yes, being "a little bit faster" buys more time in theory to "get the ball rolling" but the point is that you will always gain more time with another slowdown perk instead.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3726131#Comment_3726131
That seems really bad tbh. Why does a perk that already requires you to play well to get the injures in the first place require additional downsides? This perk would kill your map pressure. You’d be effectively negating whatever extra slow down Thana would be giving you by saving them the time in heals defeating the entire point of the perk. The counter is already healing, it doesn’t need more.
You are looking at it at face value. The point of Thana is to slow the game down right? But, to make thana good, means you make the survivor's time miserable, because everything is so slow so they have to go find a teammate to heal themselves constantly. But, if you make it so survivors now have a choice, they can continue to eat the thana, or they can heal themselves, or a teammate, it gives a choice.
Lets look at the math of that one for example. So you get injured right? Repairs are now 6% slower, so that means a gen takes 5.4 seconds longer. Not much time by itself, so maybe you think, i'll just ignore it, i won't heal myself and just keep working the gen. But now another survivor gets injured, so now the gen is taking 11 seconds longer. Now you start thinking, "well, i'm injured, which makes my next chase riskier, maybe i'll just spend the extra time to heal myself or find a teammate to heal me" so now, you heal yourself, which makes you safer for your next chase, and removes the penalty on the gen. But, while you are healing yourself, what is happening? That's right, you aren't working on the gen. The penalty itself did not delay the game much, but it delayed it ENOUGH to encourage you to spend your time doing something else.
Its like the pig traps. If you are a good pig player, you do not tunnel the people with the traps, you trap someone, and then you mostly ignore them, yeah maybe sometimes you run into them running to a box, or you catch them at a box, so you maybe down them and then continue your other chase, but you aren't actively tunneling the person with the trap. Because the person with the trap is already NOT working on gens, so you should instead focus your time on people who ARE working on gens. 1 Person trying to remove a trap, 1 person in a chase, 1 person on a hook, and 1 person going for the save are NO survivors on gens. You aren't going to use the traps to try to get kills, you are using them to make survivors do something ELSE other than the gens.
Similarly here, the point is to make thana JUST strong enough, that it makes the survivor think "maybe i SHOULD heal myself". So they spend the time getting off the gen and heal themselves. Right now, the numbers are too weak because you need all survivors injured, but if you buff thana, it becomes miserable because survivors then have to run around finding someone to heal them, or to just power through really slow gens. So the point is to give them a CHOICE, keyword CHOICE. "Do i power through this gen 6% slower and run the risk of being less safe in my next chase? Or do i take the chance here to waste a little extra time, but heal myself so i'm playing a bit safer. Do i have time to do that? What are my other teammates doing?"
It creates meaningful gameplay choices that survivors can make where they can choose to ignore it completely, or choose to go ham and keep themselves fully healed at all times, or somewhere in between.
This is actually why Thana is good on plague for example. Not because thana is actually that much slowdown, but because it encourages survivors to cleanse at the alters. Which, in turn, will speed up their repair speeds, but, it means that now they have to deal with plague potentially having their power. It creates a meaningful interesting choice, where the survivor can choose to power through it, or choose to be safer since powering through it is already being penalized, ultimately slowing the game down either way. If they ignore it it, it will slow the game down, a little bit but its much less safe. But, if they want to be safe, now the game is slowed down a lot more.
Now, maybe 6% is a little too low, perhaps it needs to be 7% to make it more worth it, but the general idea is there.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3726060#Comment_3726060
Everyone and their mother was running it during those two weeks. I'm not sure what the exact use rate was, but you'd see it like every other game in my experience.
It was really good. Exceptionally good on killers that could injure easily. It made the games a slog and that's why it was reworked.
As for the OP, yeah, Thana feels kind of underwhelming outside of Plague or Legion right now. They could bridge the gap by making the base injured penalty 3% at Tier 3, and +8% for all Survivors being injured. It'd still be 20% max but would do a little more for having less than 4 Survivors injured.
That said, Thana is decent, even now. There's a super long list of perks I'd rather see buffed over Thana at the moment.
That keeps it being useless.
It should be strong, but give a downside. For example:
For each injured survivor, all action speeds (except for healing) are reduced by 6%. This would be a 6%/12%/18%/24%. However, injured survivors are now able to heal themselves at a 50% speed, survivors healing on OTHER survivors is increased by 50%. Both effects are halved on survivors who are broken.
Basically, you make it a great perk for delaying the game, but the downside is survivors can easily heal themselves up at a decent rate, or heal each other very quickly if they are nearby.
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@hatchetChugger said:
anyone else find it weird how this perk has been gutted for almost 2 years and hasnt received any changes? The initial 6.1 buff to thana was complained about because it was way too strong on killers like plague and legion. So the change they made to the perk did not address the problem and instead made thana ONLY viable on those 2 killers and no one else. Honestly, pre 6.1 Thanatophobia was strong and didnt need a change in my opinion.
As soon as you realize the truth, you'll be much happier.
If anything exists, that makes it so survivors can't counter it, by just holding m1 on a gen, it will get reworked or nerfed. Thana wasn't THAT good, because it was easy to counter by just healing a ton. But healing, is not holding m1 on a gen, thus it is "unfun".
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@skylerbound said:
so I have had 4 matches, where I tried to electrify 4 survivors. I static blasted and hit them all with power then hit as welll… and no progress. What am I missing?
Run both calm addons and distressing, and just static blast long range and you'll get it. They need to be OVER the amount of meters it says in the challenge.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3725565#Comment_3725565
survivor bodyblocking sbtfl is basically free gen defence for unknown. in fact, it is arguably more powerful then any gen defence perk. his ranged projectile can mostly ignore bodyblockers. if the obsession so cocky to the point of unhooking then you can machine gun slug them for free slug pressure. I think it is pretty underrated for him to be able to m2→m1→m2 and down someone in <10 seconds. It is just getting initial m1 hit is rough for him. that is my take on him. The look to disable power is survivor mechanic. it should be killer mechanic that killer can profit from.
Machine gun slug them, but you still lose 4 stacks then. You must be playing against a different caliber of survivor, because losing 4 stacks in my games amounts to pretty much a loss with a dead perk.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3725284#Comment_3725284
i wouldn't say useless. If you run save the best for last and Rapid brutality, you can direct hit shot → bounce→hit enemy then m1 them then M2. you get very quick machine gun hit.
Unknown for me is just better deathslinger. Deathslinger used to be able to do m1→m2 shot and get quick downs. Unknown grenade launcher is the same.
He also had add-on to apply free exhaust on his shots which is very strong. you just delete lithe, dead hard at no cost. Still, I think his m1 play is too weak to "get" the machine gun.
I think if he had hindered effect when survivors don't look at him while weakened, He could be decent killer. right now he's like middle of the road killer. you just don't get enough reward for his shots.
rapid is a bad perk, and save is terrible now againt coordinated teams because the obsession can block you to the point you literally must hit them, losing stacks. at least before the nerfs, you could m2 them.
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@Science_Guy said:
I see Batteries Included often enough. The Alien haste perk also gets used quite a bit. They can't be that bad if killers keep using them.
Batteries is better than rapid for sure. But why take that, to make your chases that happen near completed gens (something you already don't want to be doing) be 5-10 seconds faster, when you could instead by running another slowdown perk that buys you far more time?
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@Mooks said:
you get random perks which may create unplanned situations that are helpful/funny/whatever that you wouldn’t get
Meanwhile, in the normal mode, you still only encounter tunnel, camp, slug and genrushing but you also face only a select pool of perks that are being used in annoying/unfun ways.
You do not wanna imply that facing Pop and Scourge: Pain Resonance every match is fun? Or feeling the need to run those..Generally i agree with OP. The mode just highlights how ridiculous the game is that it is balanced around killers bringing slowdown perks, and around survivors bringing anti-tunnel perks. If killers don't, they have a bad time, and if survivors don't they have a bad time.
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@Chocolate_Cosmos said:
I think Survivors got better againts him. Almost nobody hugs tiles againts him, everyone knows to go hug him if close to deny his power, most Survivors will dodge your shot from afar, his teleport feels like isn't as valueble anymore.
I gave him at release top B tier, now I think more of mid B tier at best.
The trick with unnkown, is realizing that the "grenade" power is almost worthless against any decent survivor. The trick is the teleport. The teleport, combined with some kind of undetectable, is pretty strong.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3725249#Comment_3725249
Btw. on a side note, while checking how it gets described on steam I saw this:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/LV13G70SQ131/image.png
Game journalism is really high quality these days… So at least those guys think it is a competetive game.
Right, so even they think its a competitive game.
These people screaming "party game" are trying to hold onto something that isn't real. DbD is a competitive game.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3725251#Comment_3725251
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/61114/community-community-data-requests
There you go.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/BZYJ02WZUSHX/image.png
Considering this possibly the newest set of data on that matter we can either see this as a direction or just blind guess..
Right, so it affects ~10% of the players in this case.
And some of those 10% will find another friend to play with. It's not that hard.
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@lagosta said:
According to the latest stats on SWF, no. They do not need nerfs.
According to those same stats, nurse needs massive buffs and skull merchant is the most overpowered killer to ever exist in the history of dead by daylight.
Do you believe both of those statements to be true?
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3724918#Comment_3724918
They gave out data about that quite some time ago I think... Fully depends on what you call large...
Source of that data?
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3724920#Comment_3724920
So was DBD a party game before mmr?
I'd argue not, but i am saying that MMR means it is not a party game, not that a non-party game must have MMR, that would be a fallacy to assume that.
Yes MMR means it is not a party game, but sometimes there are games that are not party games that do not have MMR.
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@rysm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3724894#Comment_3724894
Like you said, they were previously 80 secs and atm the gens are flying. If anything the modifier highlighted how shockingly fast the gens can be done when killers don't have the usual regression perks. In nearly every one of my survivor modifier matchs the killer was overwhelmed by the gen progress, in my killer modifier mates they were going insanely fast. On the survivor side it was refreshing to not have your progress "erased" but on the killer side it felt awful to feel powerless against the speedy gens. There needs to be a fundamental balance here.
I do think there needs to be a fundamental look at survivor gen progression and regression perks. The OPs idea sounds very interesting and personally i'd love to try it. Complete gen rework.@Akeeno said:
doing gens is easy, and kinda boring, the chase is the heart of the game right? so why dont we make it so gens cant be worked on right away, and need a type of resource before repairing, could be gears, gasoline, power cords, etc.
some gens would just need 1-2 requirements and survivors need to scavenge the map for those parts, some could spawn in basement, or corners of the map, near lockers, and take the resource back to the gen, but since it would take time to look for and find the parts doing the actual gen would take maybe 20-30 seconds. (numbers can be adjusted) the parts would have multiple spawn points so killers cant protect the parts.
more items could be introduced to help out, or reworked. maps can show potential locations, keys could unlock a part behind a cage, etc. the goal is to make survivor feel like actual survival, while the killer is doing their thing. is this too drastic of a change?
or it could even be a game mode. thoughts?
I don't think this is the way to do it though.
BHVR always takes the simpler route, and it would be better to do that then do something that fundamentally reworks the entire game.
The simpler solution is to do what they do with killers, where they nerf the addons, and buff the basekit.
In this case, nerf the perks, buff the basekit.
I would suggest:
- Cut most gen regression/defense perks to around half of what they are now (minus the bad ones like ruin and merciless storm and such)
- Buff basekit gen kick regression to 10%
- Buff basekit regresssion to 200%
- Add a basekit corrupt that lasts 20-30 seconds
- Add a basekit corrupt on hex totems that lasts 20-30 seconds.
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@Reinami said:
People forget that haste is better on survivors that it is killers. Yes, 5% haste TECHNICALLY gives the killer more movement speed than 5% haste on a survivor, but what is important in DBD is not the absolute movement speeds of either side, but the differences in the movement speeds between either side.
For example, imagine this scenario where there is just an infinite straight line, and the survivor and killer start 20 meters apart. The survivor runs in an infinite straight line for both hits. How long does it take the killer to down this survivor in these different scenarios? Lets do the basic math:
With a 4.6 m/s killer and a 4.0 m/s survivor, the math works as follows.
- The killer closes the gap at a rate of 0.6 meters per second.
- The attack hitbox of a killer extends out about 2 meters.
- A lunge, increases the killers movement speed to 6.9 m/s for 0.8 seconds, and during this time the survivor is able to move 3.2 meters. So a killer can max range lunge a survivor at 4.32 meters away.
- Post-hit speed boost lasts 1.8 seconds at 6.0 m/s for the survivor
- Post hit attack animation is 2.7 seconds for killer, in which they can move 0.46 m/s
Knowing those, it takes the killer:
1st hit: to close a gap of 20 meters (with the 4.32 lunge factored in) takes 26.1 seconds.
2nd hit: survivor gains 13.158 meters of distance, to close that gap takes 14.73 seconds.
Total: 26.1 + 14.73 = 40.83 seconds.
Now lets do the same math, with the killer moving 5% faster:
So a 4.83 (which is 0.23 m/s more) m/s killer against a 4 m/s survivor.
1st hit: to close a gap of 20 meters takes 18.89 seconds
2nd hit: to close a gap of 13.158 meters of distance it takes 10.65 seconds
Total: 18.89 seconds + 10.65 seconds = 29.54 seconds
Now lets do the same math, with the SURVIVOR moving 5% faster:
So a 4.6 m/s killer against a 4.2 m/s (0.2 m/s more) survivor.
1st hit: to close a gap of 20 meters takes 39.2 seconds
2nd hit: survivor gains a bit more distance of 15.12 meters, to close that gap takes 27 seconds exactly
Total: 39.2 seconds + 27 seconds = 66.2 seconds.
So you can see that:
Base: 40.83 seconds
5% faster killer: 29.54 seconds
5% faster survivor: 66.2 seconds.
- So a killer moving 5% faster, reduces the length of the chase by 11.29 seconds, or 27.6% faster chase
- A survivor moving 5% faster, increases the length of a chase by 25.37 seconds, or 62.1% longer chase.
So a survivor moving 5% faster, is much more significant, than a killer moving 5% faster. This might not make much sense, but its because the thing that is important is not that a killer gains 0.23 m/s movement speed and the survivor gains 0.2. It is about the DIFFERENCE in the movement speeds between both sides. So a killer moving at 4.83, is gaining 0.83 m/s of distance on the survivor, which is only a 27% increase. But a survivor moving at 4.2 against a 4.6 killer, has a difference of 0.4 m/s which is a much higher increase in movement speed. This is compounded by the survivor gaining this movement speed during their speed boost, which increases their speed boost even more, whereas the killer gains it during that post hit attack, which is basically nothing already.
This is why killer haste effects feel so underwhelming and why perks like MFT for example were SO much more powerful than people realized.
I should also add, this is why rapid brutality is actually a terrible perk. Because you trade bloodlust, a 5% haste, for a 5% haste after hitting a survivor.
So if you factor that in, that second hit, base, you take 14.73 seconds to catch up, but with rapid, it'll be 10.65, but rapid saves you ~4 seconds, but if you just waited that 4 seconds, you'd get bloodlust anyway, and that bloodlust helps you get the first hit. You could argue it helps at loops, but even then you still have to catch up to them. On top of that, haste is even WORSE at loops, because of survivor hitboxes, the amount of difference in movement speed you gain is even less when hugging around a rock. With the exception of chucky, who appears to have a similar hitbox as survivors do at loops.
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@Archael said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3725020#Comment_3725020
I'm pretty sure haste do not increase relative speed but is applied to fixed value.
Surv running 100% getting 5% haste is moving 105%
Killer moving 115%, getting 5% haste now moves 120%, not 120,75%
But this will further validate your point, not contradict it, unless you calculated something poorly I haven't checked this yet.
Everything that increases or decreases things based on a percentage is additive, not multiplicative, but it is based on the "base" of that character.
So if a survivor has 5% haste, they gain 0.2 m/s but a killer will gain slightly more.
But if a survivor has say, a 7% haste from hope, and a 3% haste from MFT, they stack additively, so they stack off the base so its
4.0 + (4.0 * 0.07) + (4.0 * 0.03) = 4.4.
Or more simply, you can just add the percentages together, to get 10% haste, then do the calculation from there.
But killers do in fact gain it based on their base movement speed. You can see this in the wiki:
Specifically this section here:
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@Chocolate_Cosmos said:
Do this do increase your speed a tiny bit for few seconds, etc.
Like do you ever see someone using them outside of like adept or random build? Naaah. They aren't good perks, the haste isnt worth it.
People forget that haste is better on survivors that it is killers. Yes, 5% haste TECHNICALLY gives the killer more movement speed than 5% haste on a survivor, but what is important in DBD is not the absolute movement speeds of either side, but the differences in the movement speeds between either side.
For example, imagine this scenario where there is just an infinite straight line, and the survivor and killer start 20 meters apart. The survivor runs in an infinite straight line for both hits. How long does it take the killer to down this survivor in these different scenarios? Lets do the basic math:
With a 4.6 m/s killer and a 4.0 m/s survivor, the math works as follows.
- The killer closes the gap at a rate of 0.6 meters per second.
- The attack hitbox of a killer extends out about 2 meters.
- A lunge, increases the killers movement speed to 6.9 m/s for 0.8 seconds, and during this time the survivor is able to move 3.2 meters. So a killer can max range lunge a survivor at 4.32 meters away.
- Post-hit speed boost lasts 1.8 seconds at 6.0 m/s for the survivor
- Post hit attack animation is 2.7 seconds for killer, in which they can move 0.46 m/s
Knowing those, it takes the killer:
1st hit: to close a gap of 20 meters (with the 4.32 lunge factored in) takes 26.1 seconds.
2nd hit: survivor gains 13.158 meters of distance, to close that gap takes 14.73 seconds.
Total: 26.1 + 14.73 = 40.83 seconds.
Now lets do the same math, with the killer moving 5% faster:
So a 4.83 (which is 0.23 m/s more) m/s killer against a 4 m/s survivor.
1st hit: to close a gap of 20 meters takes 18.89 seconds
2nd hit: to close a gap of 13.158 meters of distance it takes 10.65 seconds
Total: 18.89 seconds + 10.65 seconds = 29.54 seconds
Now lets do the same math, with the SURVIVOR moving 5% faster:
So a 4.6 m/s killer against a 4.2 m/s (0.2 m/s more) survivor.
1st hit: to close a gap of 20 meters takes 39.2 seconds
2nd hit: survivor gains a bit more distance of 15.12 meters, to close that gap takes 27 seconds exactly
Total: 39.2 seconds + 27 seconds = 66.2 seconds.
So you can see that:
Base: 40.83 seconds
5% faster killer: 29.54 seconds
5% faster survivor: 66.2 seconds.
- So a killer moving 5% faster, reduces the length of the chase by 11.29 seconds, or 27.6% faster chase
- A survivor moving 5% faster, increases the length of a chase by 25.37 seconds, or 62.1% longer chase.
So a survivor moving 5% faster, is much more significant, than a killer moving 5% faster. This might not make much sense, but its because the thing that is important is not that a killer gains 0.23 m/s movement speed and the survivor gains 0.2. It is about the DIFFERENCE in the movement speeds between both sides. So a killer moving at 4.83, is gaining 0.83 m/s of distance on the survivor, which is only a 27% increase. But a survivor moving at 4.2 against a 4.6 killer, has a difference of 0.4 m/s which is a much higher increase in movement speed. This is compounded by the survivor gaining this movement speed during their speed boost, which increases their speed boost even more, whereas the killer gains it during that post hit attack, which is basically nothing already.
This is why killer haste effects feel so underwhelming and why perks like MFT for example were SO much more powerful than people realized.
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@JPLongstreet said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3724918#Comment_3724918
Duos are by far the most common SWF, with trios less numerous and quads even less so.
Right, so duos can play together, what is the problem?
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3724648#Comment_3724648
Well that's what many people call it ^^ And since most people agree that it is not a competitive game they tend to put those two as the opposite sides of the spectrum...
DBD has a weird spot in that regard, because it has mmr but way too much rng to be even somewhere near a competitive game... So I don't really know where to put it.
Right, so those people are wrong. If a game is using MMR, then by definition it is not a party game.
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@Yharwick said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3724618#Comment_3724618
Screwing over a large part of the community because killer players can't cope with people playing together is absolutely ridiculous.
This is DBD not CS:GO lmao.
Saying that "a large part of the community is playing with exactly 3 people in a premade" is probably not true. Do you have any proof of that?
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3724618#Comment_3724618
Maybe in ranked, but not in unranked modes as far as I know... Otherwise this game would need to gi full comp and not call itself a partygame anymore when you cannot queue as a 3 men swf...
Please tell me where the words "party game" appear anywhere in DBDs marketing.
Also, please tell me of any other "party game" that uses MMR to match players of relatively equal skill.
Does mario party use MMR you think?
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3724229#Comment_3724229
So where does the 3men swf go? With the poor solo guy that was unlucky enoug to get into their lobby?
They need to find another friend. This is very common in team based games as it is, where you can queue up for solo, duo, or full squad but not "partial squad"
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@Yharwick said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3724229#Comment_3724229
Honest question, how many killer players do you think would honestly queue up for ranked mode on that scenario?
Also do trios just not get to play the game then?
Because its ranked. You get a rank, you get more rewards, you get higher bloodpoints, etc.
How many players queue up for ranked modes in other games despite the fact that they are signing up for a sweaty match where they might not get to play the character they want like in games like League or Overwatch?
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@Deathstroke said:
Just played agains't one of the disgusting swf I have faced and match was struggle and very stressful. The survivors always ran to pallets perfectly and from there to best loop shack and main building after getting hit so I could not commit without losing and when I would had chance to get down they always bodyblocked at right time.
I got just 4 hooks barely before gens were done. In endgame 3 more due to them using most of the recourses and I managed just 1K with wraith. SoloQ in bad state but getting put to this kind of match just more painful than losing multiple solo matches a row. 7 hooks and 350K+ bp is not worst possible outcome but Im still stressed out after the match happened now 20 minutes ago.
I think because match like these killer still need buffs. MMR should be more strict especially for 4 man swf:s putting them agains't best killers nurses, billys and blights if they have good escape rate.
Yes, but also no.
The solution is not to nerf people for wanting to play with their friends.
It is obvious from the way the game is designed, and the fact that SWF was not in the game at launch, that the game was originally designed to never be played with your friends. The game was designed specifically around survivors having a lack of coordination, and communication. It is pretty clear of that. Otherwise, why would perks exist to simply give you information about which generator your teammates are on? Or bond? Those perks are pretty much useless in all but the newbiest of newbie SWF teams.
However, SWF is a core part of the game. Playing with your friends in general is pretty crucial to a game's longevity. So the solution is not to nerf it.
The solution is to split up the queues. Finally once and for all just create a ranked mode. This mode is where MMR actually matters and is accounted for, and you have a ranking that you can see and compare to other players. Maybe even a leaderboard. This ranked mode is for 4 man SWF only.
The idea is you have 4 modes of play:
- Ranked mode
- This mode is only for killers and 4 man SWF
- Casual Mode
- This mode is the current mode we have now, but you are unable to play as a SWF of more than a duo. And each match can only have 1 duo and 2 other solos, or just 4 solos. It should not be possible to have multiple duos.
- Modifier Mode
- These are where the fun modifiers go.
- Custom Match
- Current custom match parameters
The idea is that if you want to play SWF, you have to go into ranked mode. If you are just casually playing with a single friend, then you can just queue up with that friend in casual mode and still have a good time. They can even balance the modes differently.
For example, in the ranked mode, only brown and yellow items/addons, no map offerings, maybe even a limited map pool (or always the same exact RNG generated map that rotates out periodically) perhaps with limited, or even no RNG. Maybe survivors are limited to 1 perk per team, so only 1 survivor can run DS etc. They can give killers a basekit corrupt, or force the survivors to have a slower game as gens go extremely fast in coordinated play.
In the casual mode, they can give bonus bloodpoints for playing nicely. They can make tunneling completely impossible from a basic standpoint. Maybe a basekit OTR or DS that doesn't need a skillcheck to prevent tunneling. Maybe a better anti-camping measure. Some other thing.
There are plenty of competitive games that have ranked and casual modes that are balanced differently. For example in Counter strike, the casual mode gives you more money between rounds, and free armor and defuse kit. So generally, even if you lose rounds you can usually buy a good weapon for the next one. The matches are more chill and people are just vibing. Whereas in the ranked mode, the economy and how you buy items as a team plays a bigger role in coordinating with your team and determining if you win or lose a game.
- Ranked mode
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https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/414914/best-stealth-killer-asking-killer-mains
Unironically probably skull merchant.
If you go with stealth based perks, unknown is pretty good as well, because the teleporting around makes it hard for survivors to keep track of you.
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Didn't this game already come out?
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@ArkInk said:
With the upcoming release of Vecna, that's soon to be followed by an as of yet unknown licensed survivor, that will then be upped by Castlevania being included (and don't forget the solo licensed killer in March).
What do you think is best for the game? Are licenses actually more worth it over regular chapters? Should only the ones considered "big" be focused on? Do you think more new players from a certain fanbase could be detrimental to the playing experience? Personally, this year looks worrying, but potentially very exciting if it's executed on well.
Ones i would like to see:
- Dracula (is technically public domain)
- Wolfman (or just a general werewolf)
- Jekyll and Hyde (another public domain)
- Anything lovecraftian (i know we have stuff like dredge but those are just inspired by, i mean something in the lovecraftian realm)
- Urban legends like mothman, bigfoot etc.
- X-Files (probably a survivor only chapter)
- Half-Life (would never happen, but would be cool)
- Some kind of alien (not like Alien, Alien, but like, a classic gray alien)
- The Shining
- Supernatural
If they wanted to dive into the anime world, there's also plenty to choose from:
- Death note (might be tough to do as a killer power)
- Monster (if they only ever did one anime, this is the one to do, its the most realistic, gritty one i've seen)
- Akira
And of course my all time request that i know would NEVER happen because most people wouldn't like the aesthetic of it in DBD, its basically "cute anime characters in a slice of life that go crazy and torture and kill everyone"
Higurashi.
you could do a legion style killer, or a bunch of different skins but the same killer power:
For those unfamiliar with it. The gist is that the characters are caught in a time loop (but are unaware) and each arc starts out with a couple episodes of things being eerie but normal, until someone loses their mind and goes on a murder spree or some crazy thing happens. There' s a bunch of lore why its all happening, but it would be massive spoilers to explain anything other than that, and even that spoils like the first arc a bit.
WARNING, even though this is an anime it is actually quite gruesome and violent, the youtuber even had to censor it to not get it taken off youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ibZsTvcRgs -
@Cerzith said:
A general idea to Buff what is debatably the worst Hex perk in the game.
Basically when the totem is cleansed instead of removing the affects of the perk have it only removes its ability to gain more tokens. So if the totem is cleansed at 3 tokens the regression and change in timing of the sound and skill check would remain but it wouldnt be able to be increased beynd that point.
As far as I can think of it wouldnt make the perk to unbalanced as I think it would still be outclassed by other regression perks and in order to get proper value out it you'd still need to get roughly half way through the game and get it to 5 tokens. Which in my experience doesnt happen to often unless you're up against new survs who don't know where to look for totems.
The rework i would do for huntress lullaby is the same rework i would do for every hex perk.
In general, i think hex perks are generally not worth it to bring. They are too high risk for too low reward. They used to be high reward, but BHVR realized that on the flip side of it, if the perks are strong (I.E. worth the hex) and then survivors can't find the hex, then its a problem, especially for newer players.
On the flip side, hexes can be cleansed almost immediately by pure RNG, so the risk for them needs to be worth it, but in order for them to be worth it, they must be set up in a way where you MUST cleanse them, or you'll probably lose. Which cycles back to the new player problem.
To deal with this, i would change hexes in general to work like this:
When a Hex totem is play, all dull totems become hex totems. Every time a hex totem is cleansed, the hex is weakened. If all hexes are removed, the hex is removed from the game.
This would basically be. Hex totems make all totems Hexes, and the power of the totem is based on the hex. So for example:
Hex ruin: Causes generators not being worked on to regress:
- 5 totems: 250% regression
- 4 totems: 220% regression
- 3 totems: 185% regression
- 2 totems: 145% regression
- 1 totem : 100% regression
Hex Devour Hope:
- Every totem cleansed reduces the tokens the killer has by 2.
In the case of huntress lullaby. I would do this:
Hex Huntress Lullaby reduces the warning you get for skill checks.
- 5 totems: no warning
- 4 totems: 80% reduced warning
- 3 totems: 60% reduced warning
- 2 totems: 40% reduced warning
- 1 totem : 20% reduced warning
This would make it far more usable without destroying low level players (because you should be able to easily find 2-3 totems relatively quickly.
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@Junylar said:
Hit validation is client-sided for the killer, so if he has a huge ping - he will hit you from a mile away.
That is not true and has not been true since dedicated servers were put in place.
There's also the newer rollback mechanic, where if a killer or survivor has high ping it will sometimes "rollback" the hit. It is really prevalent sometimes at pallet hits. There are times where i hit a survivor, i see the blood, it makes the sound effect, the survivor screams, and then the pallet stuns me and they aren't hit at all because the hit was rolled back.
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@steamed_hamzzz said:
I love playing this mode, it’s such a refreshing change of pace, but there’s one thing I have noticed. If killers know there’s no threat of perks like DS, OTR ect then they will tunnel like their life depends on it, which is why such perks are necessary in the main game
But should they need to be necessary? Game modes like this show us how fun the game can be when there’s perk variety, if players aren’t running the same build game after game out of necessity the game becomes so much more fun
It’s why I think a lot of the anti tunnel perks need to nerfed/ reworked and instead have some of their power build into a survivors base kit, just so you’re not completely disadvantaged when you don’t run the same perks game after game, and aren’t heavily limiting your play style/ build just to avoid getting hard tunnelled at 5 gens, allowing a lot more perk variety which is much healthier for the game in the long run
Tunneling needs to not be tied to a perk, they need to completely rework the DS perk, and build in an anti-tunnel mechanic that the game is balanced around.
The other side of it, this mode shows that the game requires some kind of slowdown on a killer. I always say they should do what they do to killer addons like leatherface this coming patch. Nerf the perks, buff the basekit.
Cut the gen defense perks in half and then:
- Basekit gen kick is 10%
- Basekit gen regression is 200%
- Basekit corrupt that lasts 20 seconds
- Basekit corrupt on hex totems that lasts 20 seconds
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@Sarrif said:
I get it, you just downed a survivor and want to hook them. But also, you can't complain about this if you want gens to slow down. Survivors currently have one objective and that's to do generators and not much else. If you want survivors to do something other than gens then it has to be worthwhile for survivors to do since they aren't doing the one thing they HAVE to do then it has to be rewarding.
In short, I'm genuinely curious. What would you rather have? Fast gens or sabotaging hooks being actually useful?
Yeah i can.
Its simple math.
It takes a single survivor less time to sabo and deny a hook than it did for the killer to earn that hook. And that is only a single survivor. Now factor in that a killer's time is worth 4x that of a survivor's time. And if it takes 45 seconds to down a survivor (chases are balanced around lasting an average of 45 seconds btw), but only 20 seconds for a survivor to run over into position and sabo a hook, then you gave a serious problem.
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@caligraph said:
I was reading that "whos the weakest" post and everyone is saying ghostface? Major shock to me I always thought of him as low B-high C tier, but nowhere near trapper or freddy. To those who think he is bad, why?
He's a stealth killer that has one of the loudest telegraphs in the game. I really don't understand why BHVR keeps making these "stealth killers" but then giving them an extremely obvious, loud tell that they are nearby.
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@Krazzik said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3722013#Comment_3722013
Aura-reading means they're not stacking as much slowdown, surely that should be a good thing?
Don't try to be reasonable here. Every killer is running 4x slowdown perks on top of the aura reading perks they bring. Didn't you know that?
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@Chocolate_Cosmos said:
Did anyone tested him? Thoughts?
He's weaker. The reason people do the scamper thing now, is because they took away his flick. His attack is braindead easy to dodge currently, and can't really be used at loops because he can't flick anymore.
If they bring back his flick, he'll be in a great spot, a high skill cap killer that takes some practice. Either that or they just increase his movement speed to 115.
As it stands, if nothing else changes, his best playstyle will probably to just go full stealth and use his power to get stealthy hits, and the dash will be used for movement and catching up, not to actually hit anyone with.
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@Xcell78 said:
I've been playing this game for the better part of 5 years now and I main Survivor for the most part. I literally just had 4 matches in a row where the first survivor that was hooked just "Gave Up" and threw the match for me and the other 3 survivors. In one of the matches after the first survivor gave up the rest of us just waited in a circle for the killer to come and end this miserable experience. This is the current state of the game these days. Which int he end is just not fun for all involved. I much rather deal with a bubba face camp from the old days than deal with this. And God forbid if you throw in the true "DC" you spend more time finding a match than actually playing in one to completion. Since the De-Pip was removed, that accelerated the instances of "Giving Up". I mean why not right? there really isn't any serious consequences for doing so. A little slap on the wrist maybe a 5 min ban no problem, I need to pee anyway. Come back do it again. The game in my opinion was better off back in the day in allot of ways vs what we have today. Even as toxic of an environment that was, at least people stayed in the dang match. Maybe Behavior should create a true Competitive mode for those of us that don't mind having competition and leave this current version for the ones that can't take the heat and let them casually disconnect. I really don't know what to say about this muck at the moment other than I hope Behavior can come up with a fair solution to this or I'm afraid this will have diminishing returns on the game and community.
The reality is, the game is decided by the first chase. This is true for both sides.
The question is. Does the killer get the first hook before the other 3 survivors can finish 2-3 gens? If so, the killer is probably going to win. If not, the survivors are probably going to win.
So, when survivors realize that they probably aren't going to win, they just immediately give up. This is compounded by the fact that you can't depip anymore. Why bother playing out a match i'm going to lose? May as well just give up and move on to the next one because there is literally no penalty for doing so anymore.
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@I_CAME said:
You wait until they come to their senses and finally rework her. If she's good enough then you just die and the game ends. Even comp level survivors are expected to lose against a good nurse.
I was reliably informed that comp games don't matter. The average player is going against nurses who are pretty terrible per the data she has one of the lowest (and often the lowest) kill rates in the game.
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@The_Krapper said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3719539#Comment_3719539
While I don't agree with OP on vecna there is a way to have both and I'll provide an example,
If I'm against a huntress her skill matters in loops and even if she's right there for a free hatchet hit she can still miss because the player input is important
If I'm against a pyramid head and I get zoned at a window or pallet the players skill no longer matters in some scenarios because you can't miss unless it's in the open for the survivor to have movement to dodge the attack
Neither one of these killers is by any means OP but by design in my opinion huntress is better because skill expression means more and one person could be terrible with her and someone else be a total legend with her due to skill alone and not a cheese ability and I think that's more of the mindset OP has regarding killers who can cheese their ability for a hit instead of the skill being important.
But what you stated about PH is exactly true with huntress. You can dodge PH just as well as you can dodge huntress. The killer can also cancel and go for an M1 the same way. I'd bet the cooldown is probably similar to before you can attack.
You round the corner at shack, for example, and the survivor is waiting, you hold the hatchet, you hold the PH, if they vault the window, you get a hit, if they don't, they walk to the pallet, if they drop the pallet, you get a hit, if they don't you keep going.
The "counterplay" there is in the mindgame of "are they going to vault/drop the pallet, or are they not" There is nothing wrong with that kind of mindgame.
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@Brightened said:
It's been the trend.
Unknown
Chucky
Xeno
Singularity
Even with skull merchant you break the pallets if you vault with a claw trap.So now the new killer will be able to not only block the pallet drops- but also summon skulls that hit you?
Is the whole plan that we all become hardcore 360 spinners as survivor mains? Or that won't work because of the ping difference in 99% of games. So what are survivors supposed to do now?
Do you know why?
Because every time they made killers like legion, plague, old freddy, pig, sadako, pinhead (box), skull merchant (pre rework), twins, etc? Survivors complained. Because these were killers where you couldn't just hold m1 on a gen the whole time. You had to use your brain, and think about how to actually counter them. Survivors complained about killers who had macro based powers, so now you get micro based ones. And over time they slowly have gutted those killers to just be shadows of their former self, and either terrible (like freddy) or nerfed any macro playstyle they had so all that is left is the micro (skull merchant, pinhead) And then there are perks, like old hex ruin + undying among many others.
Anytime anything exists in the game, that makes it so survivors can't just hold m1 and shift + w to counter it, survivors complain about it.
You are getting exactly what you all complained about and asked for.
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@MechWarrior3 said:
I was today years old when I realized DS is a 1 time use for the whole trial. I thought you could use each time you got off hook for a total of 2 times…
Then they wanna nerf it? It’s already trash. 🗑️Ask yourself this question.
If it is "already trash" why is it that when it was only a 3 second stun, that it was used in literally every single comp game ever?