Reinami
Reinami
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@Kaitsja said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3734152#Comment_3734152
Not really, no.
Games against SWFs are objectively harder than games against solos. The degree of difficulty can be as small as swfs don't kill themselves on hook or play super selfishly. In solo queue, teamwork is not guaranteed.
Games against SWFs are objectively harder than games against solos.
Seems like a problem with game balance then no?
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@HEX_DEAD_BY_AI said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3734773#Comment_3734773
- 1st: basekit helps GF undetectable
- 2nd: this map, GF found us before we could find teammates (we were all soloq)
- 3rd: found teammates, and get exposed while healing (unless they have full recovery)
» » » Ya, you're a pro soloq survivor, I see 🙂!!
Seemly many weak killers cry about nerf this nerf that, while hundreds of TTV/YT every day show the opposite. Truly, no one wants to sub and watch a guy who only does bad tricks (even a newbie can do) to win. So, just watch how they play, they live usually.
I don't see slugging as a big problem. And here is an example of decent use of 'Knock Out', not abuse it to ruin the whole game.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3733692#Comment_3733692
You said "i've always found saying devs favor one side ridiculous but i'll start feeling that way if they ever decide to nerf knock out of all perks." » » » So, you're a 'KNOCK OUT' player like that GF?
Just like many killers yell about "survivors only hide, don't do gens, take an hour in the match". That's it, that's a bad play on the survivors' side. It ruins killers' experience. On the other side, there are things that also ruin survivors' experience. Only people who play both sides know that, and not blaming the perks, the nerf. Many survivors yell about killers' basekit, addon, perks, etc. Practically, people call this a killer-side game. Meanwhile, many killers yell about DS, flashlight, sabo, pallet… and make comparison like this:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3733663#Comment_3733663
As I have the answer in a comment above. Even a newbie can do camping/tunneling/slugging. But things like sabo save, bodyblock save, pallet save, flashlight save… it must be done at the right time, and it needs practice to master that technique.
Again, i bring back the book by David Sirlin:
Doing one move or sequence over and over and over is a tactic close to my heart that often elicits the call of the scrub. This goes right to the heart of the matter: why can the scrub not defeat something so obvious and telegraphed as a single move done over and over? Is he such a poor player that he can’t counter that move? And if the move is, for whatever reason, extremely difficult to counter, then wouldn’t I be a fool for not using that move? The first step in becoming a top player is the realization that playing to win means doing whatever most increases your chances of winning. That is true by definition of playing to win. The game knows no rules of “honor” or of “cheapness.” The game only knows winning and losing.
If the strategy is SO GOOD and SO DIFFICULT TO COUNTER, then wouldn't i be dumb for not using such a strategy to my advantage? You need to be complaining to the devs to encourage the healthier playstyles, and not complain at the players using them.
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@HEX_DEAD_BY_AI said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3734141#Comment_3734141
Haha, I don't care about the book, it has nothing to do with the issue here!
Firstly, You used "SWF" as an excuse for bad play, and I replied that you were making excuses because the "SWF" rate was not high in all matches (even when I play as a killer or soloq survivor in high MMR).
Secondly, you compare "camping, tunneling, slugging" with "flashlight save, pallet save, DS, looping, etc.". I also pointed out that it was a lame comparison. I took a screenshot of that reply here:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/4GRXDNWNC3UV/image.png
And thirdly, I asked you "Do people admire and follow 'FAKER' because of his skills in LOL, or because he plays badly? That's it!! Do you get it?" in the previous comment, and now, you pulled out a book with a "name" as your answer haha.
Just, all you wanna say is "I WANT TO WIN, SO I'LL DO EVERYTHING EVEN BAD PLAY JUST TO WIN", am I right?
Think of football, bad things often happen in unorganized matches, but in professional ones, no one wants their image to be bad.
In e-sport tournaments, if candidates/teams perform bad tricks to win, no one will watch. If TTV-ers or YT-ers do those bad things, then who will sub for them?
Agree that everyone wants to win the game, but winning in nice ways requires skills.
The book literally explains exactly what you are complaining about. I'll translate it using DBD terms instead of fighting games like the book.
Camping and tunneling over and over is a tactics close to my heart that often elicits the call of the scrub. Why can the scrub not defeat something so obvious and telegraphed as a strategy that is used constantly? Is he such a poor player that he cannot counter such an obvious strategy? And, if for whatever reason, that strategy is extremely difficult to counter, then wouldn't i be a fool for not using that strategy? The first step in becoming a top player is the realization that playing to win means doing WHATEVER MOST INCREASES YOUR CHANCES OF WINNING. that is true by definition of playing to win. THE GAME KNOWS NO RULES OF "HONOR" OR OF "CHEAPNESS" THE GAME ONLY KNOWS WINNING AND LOSING.
If you want these strategies to go away, you need to be telling the devs to start encouraging and promoting healthier strategies instead of these ones?
Why do we nerf perks like pain res and grim embrace that literally BY DESIGN force you to actively NOT CAMP AND TUNNEL in order to get value out of them? Why do we constantly lock anti-tunnel behind perks that you have to pay for instead of creating a basekit mechanic for it? Why is the game balanced in such a way that killer's start the game from behind, creating a mentality that they "have" to use these strategies to win.
Don't you think the game would be more fun for everyone, if instead of kills, the game was balanced around hooks and chases?
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3734227#Comment_3734227
nobody does anyway, nor can they be expected to.
Now you know that's not true. It cannot be that 100% of killers don't play nice.
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@CastlevaniaFan said:
Can someone explain to me why we have a game in which one side if "good" can get 2500 wins as Blight, 1300 wins as Nurse, 800 wins as Oni, 300 wins as Onryo. All in a row.
But the other role can't get not even 2 wins in a row? With the highest Solo Q escape streak ever being 34 escapes and that was back when Self care and Dead Hard were OP and through tactics like keys + letting teammates die to get hatch?
Why the game right now has me looping a Killer for 5 gens and have my 3 troll teammates tbag him in gate and leave me to die on hook, getting a win at my expense, and a lonely obsessed killer getting the satisfaction of ruining someone else's game?
In literally not a single other game if you play well your team can win while you get a loss. Imagine if in Lol or Call of Duty if you had the highest kills and did the most in the team, you lost while your teammates got a VICTORY screen. It would be pathetic, it would be stupid, it would be terrible game design punishing people who are actually good and put effort into winning.
Yet somehow we have that in this game. You can be extremely good, and you're still gonna end up with a loss screen, the opposite side is still gonna end with the satisfaction of killing you, and your troll teammates who did nothing the whole game but press M1 get an easy win. Amazing game.
Sounds to me like you won. You need to stop thinking that because you died n hook and 3 people escaped that you lost. Survivor is a team sport, you win as a team, and lose as a team.
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Toolboxes aren't the problem. The problem is that against teams that just do generators, you WILL lose 3 gens in the first chase. A SINGLE dropped God pallet in the first chase will add 20 seconds to that chase. All you have to do is, run to the furthest god pallet you can make, predrop it, then shift + w to the opposite corner of the map. By the time the killer catches up hits you twice and hooks you? 90 seconds will have passed, and 3 gens are done. At that point no amount of "playing nice" will ever be able to come back from that.
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@Pulsar said:
Killers were gonna tunnel anyway, don't act like gen regression stopped anyone lol
You could give most of those players a perk that added another gen to the Trial every time they hooked someone and they'd still say that Survivors are OP and they'd still tunnel
Right, but if you keep taking away people's ability to place nice by punishing them when they do so, you only have yourself to blame when nobody wants to play nice anymore.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3734158#Comment_3734158
Not particularly. One particularly loud complainer could have met a swf that beat them due to skill or the opposite. We don't know. Was it particularly bad killers just yelling "swf op" till everyone starts to believe or did it come from facts?
Does this data include the survivors who give up on hook for solo matches? A 4 man swf is less likely to have that happen, perhaps that's why it's "op"? Ultimately we admit we don't know, but what we do know is that many people on this game will blame everything but themselves for a loss.
Perception exists for a reason. Ignoring that means you are lacking empathy for other players who are experiencing things just because you don't see them.
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@Rovend said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3734152#Comment_3734152
I mean, the same argument could be said about anything one can dislike because the problem is that there is no setback to lobby dodging at all.
Take nurse for example.
How many would dodge if they knew they are about to face a nurse? Would that also indicate there is a problem with her and the game balance?
I will be one of the first nurse mains to tell you that she is a problem. But currently she is the only killer that is viable at the highest of levels when there are no restrictions put upon survivors.
I think we need to deal with the other 30+ killers first before we start addressing nurse.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3734152#Comment_3734152
It could also indicate that people don't want to play against SWFs due to the perceived image of "OMG Swf Op squad incoming" rather than anything towards balance. People have proven to be cowards sadly.
Again, if that is the perception, would that not indicate that there is something to that perception? Its not like it just came out of nowhere and is completely factually untrue right? Even the data shows that SWF tend to escape more than solos. So again, i ask. Wouldn't that indicate that perhaps there is a problem in regards to game balance as it relates to SWF?
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@AbsolutGrndZer0 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3733779#Comment_3733779
What would stop the competitive players from playing in casual for 'easier' games?
The same reason they generally don't in other games.
- DotA has a casual mode called "turbo" where the game is about half as long, the stakes are much lower, and the game is more chill. Yeah, competitive players sometimes play it, but usually to goof around with some crazy build or character.
- CS2 has a casual mode where you get extra money and free armor and defuse kits and can leave and join as you please. Competitive players almost never play that mode, because this mode is inherently not competitive.
- LoL has an unranked mode, and other casual modes like ARAM that give you random characters and throws everyone against each other in a single lane. Competitive players generally aren't playing this mode, and if they are its again, to goof around with stuff in a lower stakes game.
- Overwatch has an unranked mode, where you can come and go, and the game is far more casual, competitive players generally aren't playing this mode and again, if they are its to goof around.
What makes DBD so special that would make it exempt from this? And don't say "because it is asymmetrical" without explaining WHY.
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@Xernoton said:
Lobby dodging should be highly discouraged. It messes with matchmaking and also artificially increases queue times. SWFs have as much of a right to play this game as everyone else. Also just because someone plays in a SWF that doesn't mean they suddenly turn into a professional basement dweller.
Chances are you play against more SWFs than you think and mostly don't notice any difference. But SWFs have a pretty bad reputation because many killer players find it easier to cope when claiming everyone they lose to clearly plays in a SWF.
If knowing it is a SWF group vs not a SWF group creates a scenario where everyone starts dodging the SWF groups, that would indicate that there is a problem with SWF and the game balance would it not?
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@HEX_DEAD_BY_AI said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3733663#Comment_3733663
Hahaha, if that's not justification then what is?
Well, you know, because you think like that, you think other people think like you. But the reality is different. And the rate of 10-15% that I gave is a typical one. Think:
- Most survivors are soloq, and even when playing as a survivor, I rarely team up with other 2-3 person SWF teams.
- When I played as a killer, only 10-15% encountered SWF, and it's unclear how many of them were good
In short, just admit that you can't win with good play, so you have to play in bad ways. Let's just admit that many people still play much better than you (in fact, it's on TTV and YT, you can see for yourself), why do you keep trying to make excuses?
About such things as gen rush, flashlight save, pallet save, DS, etc. Oh wow, how can you compare like that? What a smart comparison!
- Those things are the means to survive, just like killers also have the killing means. Remember, killers also have very strong basekits and very effective perks.
- Using a flashlight, using a pallet, looping... these are skills that take a lot of practice to master. On the other hand, camping, tunneling and slugging are things that even a newbie can do well.
- "Great skill checks" also require skill to be successful every time.
- "Bad play" survivors are people who do nothing, don't have the guts to do anything, they don't do gens, don't rescue, just hide, holding the game hostage. Most of them are hatch players. Surviving that way is considered "bad play".
- "Nice play" survivors are people who enthusiastically participate in their survival mission, even when they are already in phase 2 and injured.
- "Nice play" killers are people who can win 4K in a decent play.
Many people have said that there are killers who are used to bad play at the beginning. So when they win a lot that way, they match with high-rank survivors and then they complain why is this and why is that? A lot of killers complain about why genes fly, but when they play as survivors they can't do the same thing haha. Likewise, a lot of complaints about looping, but they can't do the same. The problem lies in skills.
Do people admire and follow 'FAKER' because of his skills in LOL, or because he plays badly? That's it!! Do you get it?
Its not a matter of "good play" or "bad play" You are thinking like a scrub, and i don't say that in like a mean way, i mean it in the technical sense. I would suggest reading the free e-book by game designer David Sirlin called "Playing to Win"
Here is an excerpt from that book that i think is showing exactly what i'm talking about:
The derogatory term “scrub” means several different things. One definition is someone (especially a game player) who is not good at something (especially a game). By this definition, we all start out as scrubs, and there is certainly no shame in that. I mean the term differently, though. A scrub is a player who is handicapped by self-imposed rules that the game knows nothing about. A scrub does not play to win.
Now, everyone begins as a poor player—it takes time to learn a game to get to a point where you know what you’re doing. There is the mistaken notion, though, that by merely continuing to play or “learn” the game, one can become a top player. In reality, the “scrub” has many more mental obstacles to overcome than anything actually going on during the game. The scrub has lost the game even before it starts. He’s lost the game even before deciding which game to play. His problem? He does not play to win.
The scrub would take great issue with this statement for he usually believes that he is playing to win, but he is bound up by an intricate construct of fictitious rules that prevents him from ever truly competing. These made-up rules vary from game to game, of course, but their character remains constant. Let’s take a fighting game off of which I’ve made my gaming career: Street Fighter.
In Street Fighter, the scrub labels a wide variety of tactics and situations “cheap.” This “cheapness” is truly the mantra of the scrub. Performing a throw on someone is often called cheap. A throw is a special kind of move that grabs an opponent and damages him, even when the opponent is defending against all other kinds of attacks. The entire purpose of the throw is to be able to damage an opponent who sits and blocks and doesn’t attack. As far as the game is concerned, throwing is an integral part of the design—it’s meant to be there—yet the scrub has constructed his own set of principles in his mind that state he should be totally impervious to all attacks while blocking. The scrub thinks of blocking as a kind of magic shield that will protect him indefinitely. Why? Exploring the reasoning is futile since the notion is ridiculous from the start.
You will not see a classic scrub throw his opponent five times in a row. But why not? What if doing so is strategically the sequence of moves that optimizes his chances of winning? Here we’ve encountered our first clash: the scrub is only willing to play to win within his own made-up mental set of rules. These rules can be staggeringly arbitrary. If you beat a scrub by throwing projectile attacks at him, keeping your distance and preventing him from getting near you—that’s cheap. If you throw him repeatedly, that’s cheap, too. We’ve covered that one. If you block for fifty seconds doing no moves, that’s cheap. Nearly anything you do that ends up making you win is a prime candidate for being called cheap. Street Fighter was just one example; I could have picked any competitive game at all.
Doing one move or sequence over and over and over is a tactic close to my heart that often elicits the call of the scrub. This goes right to the heart of the matter: why can the scrub not defeat something so obvious and telegraphed as a single move done over and over? Is he such a poor player that he can’t counter that move? And if the move is, for whatever reason, extremely difficult to counter, then wouldn’t I be a fool for not using that move? The first step in becoming a top player is the realization that playing to win means doing whatever most increases your chances of winning. That is true by definition of playing to win. The game knows no rules of “honor” or of “cheapness.” The game only knows winning and losing.
A common call of the scrub is to cry that the kind of play in which one tries to win at all costs is “boring” or “not fun.” Who knows what objective the scrub has, but we know his objective is not truly to win. Yours is. Your objective is good and right and true, and let no one tell you otherwise. You have the power to dispatch those who would tell you otherwise, anyway. Simply beat them.
The point is, this idea of "what is good play" will not go away until the devs start incentivizing that "good play" if you want tunneling and camping and slugging and all the "toxic" ways killers can play to go away, the devs need to encourage the good kinds of play and stop balancing the game around kills.
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@HEX_DEAD_BY_AI said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3733627#Comment_3733627
Ya, the key word is "incentivize". I also wrote a thread about this. I totally agree!
About your explanation "by the time you REALIZE that it is a SFW sweat squad, there is no coming back from it" »»» So, my answers for you are as I do in a few comments above:
- "When I played as a killer, only about 10-15% of my matches were SWF. And I'm not haunted by that 10-15%, I still maintain a nice playing style. I don't care too much about winning, as long as the trial is interesting ('ggwp'), and if I'm lucky I still reach 4K."
- "At the lobby, if the killers guess the foes are a bully team, and the killers think they can't handle them decently, they can go for whatever bad playstyle they want. But if they do it all the time, all of their trials, that's just their excuse 🙃." And: yes, you can't predict accurately every time, but that can't be used as an excuse.
That's it. As I see it, many people seem to use the "SWF" as an excuse, while that percentage is only a minority, and not all SWF groups are good. And, when I play as a survivor, I rarely coop with a team of 2 or 3. Most of them are also soloq.
Its not an excuse. Nobody likes to lose, and they especially don't like to lose when the team is being super toxic, teabagging at the gates, and calling you racial slurs at the end of the game.
Just because something is rare, doesn't mean it is good. And because of that killers are going to over index on going against that type of team. It doesn't matter if "most players are solo queue"
Imagine there was a killer offering that did the following:
- The killer permanently moves at 200% movement speed
- The aura of all survivors is permanently revealed
- The killer is able to mori all survivors immediately
- All survivors are permanently exposed
- All survivors repair speeds are reduced by 50%
- The killer gets max bloodpoints in all categories.
But, this offering had a 1% chance to appear in the bloodweb.
That means that statistically you'll see this maybe 1 out of every 100 games, and maybe less as some killers might not use such an offering. But, do you think that survivors would play chill all the time and just say "oh well" when they run into a killer with that offering? Or would they play assuming that every killer is going to run that offering?
Lastly, nobody flips it on the survivors side. Why is it that the killer is the one that has to "play nice" why can't the survivors "play nice" at not gen rush, or flashlight save, or pallet save, or use DS offensively etc.? Why is it always on the killer to "play nice"
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@Akeeno said:
sometimes just to test if the survivor cheats i allow myself bloodlust 3 and still cant catch them, what gives, i know im not a bad killer, invested so much time in it, studying the loops, survivor techs, and i keep getting matches where survivors are uncatchable and i have to give it 200 percent just to stand a chance.
im tired of this mmr, we play so extreme to the point its not even fun, at least for killer, and we have nothing to show for it, no visible mmr, no leaderboards, no golden weapons' or skins, thats what kills the game to me the most. i already miss chaos shuffle.
Without a video it is tough to say.
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@HEX_DEAD_BY_AI said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3730793#Comment_3730793
The buff is insignificant, and most survivors are soloq. I often watch Twitch, and have faced many excellent killers, this buff does not affect them. They play nice and reach 4K easily. Using this style of play to "counter" is only for noobs. The question is: what's the fun in playing like that game after game? 😶
Because you can't know how the game is going to go until it is too late. You need to stop asking killers to play nicer, and start asking why they aren't. It is because if you play nice, and you are going against a SWF sweat squad, then they bully the hell out of you the whole game, and by the time you REALIZE that it is a SFW sweat squad, there is no coming back from it, because they probably finished 3 gens in your first chase.
So the only option for killers is to play as hard as they can, assuming that everyone is a sweat squad until proven otherwise. The problem, is that by the time you realize that it is not a sweat squad, a survivor probably already gave up, they have 0-1 gens done, and the game is effectively over.
But now you see the dilemma. Why should i play nice when it might result in me getting bullied?
You see the problem?
What needs to be done is the very thing tru3ta1ent constantly says. They need to incentivize hooks instead of kills, and start incentivizing chases instead of tunneling and camping. You do that, and tunneling and camping go away. And, in the egregious cases, we can have basekit mechanics like the AFC in place that prevent it.
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@Lit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3733223#Comment_3733223
So if someone drops the pallet, and killer doesn't break it - then when a new survivor loops, they vault, killer picks up pallet you hit them. Tell me how they can counter this. They can't.
But yeah, maybe when you're the first to drop the pallet W key away, drop it early sure. But likely you won't always be able to do that…
I'm not an inexperienced player, I've played since 2016 with several thousand hours, and am pretty clued up on DBD.
I don't think I said to ever revert it to PTB levels? So not sure what nonsense that is - I played the PTB and agree and that was weak. I'm saying to increase the CD killer gets from coming out of using it very slightly. Nothing more.
If you think it's fine in it's current state, then I don't know what I can say to change your mind. I guess you've got a better gaming chair than 90% of the survivors. I'm just finding him uber powerful and I'm rocking win's on pretty much every killer game I play. I guess we'll let the numbers speak for themselves when the data gets released then I guess we'll know.
Because then you don't have enough time to catch them, the pallet takes up physical space, and picking it up still takes a short amount of time. On top of that, the survivor can immediately drop the pallet again, the "blocking" of dropping a pallet after it has been picked up is only because of the animation of the survivor actually dropping the pallet, if someone vaults, the killer picks it up, you can just immediately drop it again. I have had this exact thing happen many times to me when i tried to pick up a pallet from before to prevent a survivor from getting use out of it, but they just immediately redrop the pallet and now i'm there again with no usable power to do anything about loops.
Like, really stop and think about this, the skeletons give a super obvious tell, now that i have played against it, you literally KNOW when the skeletons come out, that ability is still borderline USELESS. The only thing it is good for is to hit them just before they vault a window or something, it cannot be used even out of LOS because it makes this obvious noise that it is coming and you can just crouch to dodge it.
Everything you are saying would be true, if it weren't for the fact that all of the other spells are hot garbage in a chase. The fact that he has 1 good spell in a chase on a 38 SECOND COOLDOWN means that you still aren't getting your downs fast enough with a cooldown like that if the survivor is competent at looping.
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@Junylar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3733247#Comment_3733247
BHVR has, as of 2022, 1300+ employees.
And how many of those actually worked on DbD? Judging by the quality of the game and the speed of implementing features, no more than 100, so what projects did the rest 1200 work on?
You'd be surprised, maybe 100 of those people are engineers sure, but you have QA, product management, UX, design, art, modeling, UI, marketing, music, sound, balance (i know lol), partner managers (they have a ton of 3rd party relationships to maintain), support staff, people taking care of the building they are in, IT, facilities, payments, billing, tech support, probably engineers for the support team to work on tools for them to actually support us, managers to manage all of these people and departments etc. All of that adds up fast.
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@GentlemanFridge said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3733247#Comment_3733247
1: just because it happens across the industry doesn’t make it right. Very much on the contrary.
2: sure, but these were rumoured to be people working on DbD specifically. I neglected to mention that. The potentially thousands of total BHVR employees isn’t all that relevant.
3: If the rumoured 95 is true, that’s still a substantial amount. I don’t think this can be dismissed with “it’s just 7%”
- Companies do layoffs when they have to, nobody "wants" to do layoffs. That is a result of how things in the broader economy are doing.
- Perhaps, but again, it doesn't have to be a "GAME" maybe they were working on some planned feature for DBD that was going to be some completely rework of the game, or a tournament or any other potential cancelled projects.
- The 7% is with 2022 numbers, it is likely that the company has grown substantially in the past 2 years, they likely overhired, like everyone else, and need a way to deal with that.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3732378#Comment_3732378
it is a bug because they changed rules for hide oh which is that you cannot vault without using slice & dice. you have to cancel hide-oh then vault. The real issue is that slice&dice scamper is ineffective until something is changed.
Its because they removed the flicking a while back.
They should bring back the flick while keeping scamper nerfed, it creates good counterplay and skill-based play for both sides.
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@GentlemanFridge said:
This topic might not be allowed for multiple reasons, but I’m willing to take a hit.
Basically, while I cannot confirm the exact amount, a rumoured 95 BHVR employees were laid off this morning.
I’ve already seen multiple now ex-BHVR employees confirm that they were laid off.
https://twitter.com/the_mermae/status/1798014938486841681?s=46&t=MOM9e-MaWyIGCyqm4Ri7dw
I don’t know of any major ‘faces’ as of writing but that may change as more news develops, as they say. Regardless, QA or Community, such layoffs are outrageous.
Needless to say, I am deeply disappointed.
Couple of things.
- The entire industry has been having layoffs, usually of 10-20% of the company
- BHVR has, as of 2022, 1300+ employees.
- 95 would be around 7%, and likely they have way more than 1300 now.
This is likely the restructuring of a team, or initiative within the company that resulted in some people not having jobs. For example, maybe the teams around a cancelled internal project etc.
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@Lit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3732661#Comment_3732661
I have to massively disagree.
If I bring bamboozle, and use mage hand all decent tiles are gone.
All it needs is an extra 0.8 to 1.5 second delay after coming out of using it. Problem sorted, giving enough time for survivor to at least maybe get somewhere with decent pathing. but not always.
Atm, no chance of getting away = uncounterable, there is no 50/50 with this when the killer picks up a pallet without any Cooldown and can hit you.
Majority of killer mains I watch on Twitch know this is overtuned - this needs to be changed and I'm sure it will be within a month. But I am honestly surprised (and kinda saddened) to see that some players in the community think otherwise. Maybe only play one side and don't see it. Because I'm like 30 games in and lost like 3 games with him.
First of all, now you are talking about perks, again, perks should not be the reason powers get nerfed otherwise then the perk just becomes "required" on that killer.
Secondly, it is not uncounterable, the situation is simple. If you let the killer get to close before you drop the pallet, you open yourself up to a 50/50 mindgame. If you drop the pallet 1 loop early, no mindgame to be had, and plenty of time to get away.
If you open yourself up to the mindgame it is simple.
If the killer guesses right that you are gonna drop the pallet, and they use the power, you drop the pallet, you are stuck in animation, they use the power, it lifts the pallet, and you most likely get hit. That makes sense there, you got outplayed, and you guessed wrong. If the killer guesses wrong, thinking you are gonna drop the pallet, and you don't, what are you doing instead? You are still running, they use their power on the pallet, they got slowed to 4.0 m/s while channeling the power, they blocked the pallet got slowed, and you are still running. Now what happens? Now, the killer's best anti-loop power is on cooldown for 38 seconds, meaning now they are closer to being a pure m1 killer with no power. Sure, other powers are usable, but magehand is the best anti-loop one. The skeletons have to be used out of LOS and are easy to dodge. Fly is only good over windows, and sphere does nothing against loops. But either way, if the survivor guesses right, they are heavily rewarded for it.
Now what about the other side of things?
If the killer guesses right that you are not gonna drop the pallet, you keep running, and they keep running. Now you probably aren't able to get around the loop fast enough, and likely to get hit. Again, you got outplayed, this makes sense. If the killer guess wrong thinking you are not gonna drop the pallet, but then you do, what happens? You probably stun them, gaining a solid 20 meters of distance on them, giving you a chance to get away, or heavily extend the chase, likely taking it to a more safe place like shack. Again, you outplayed the killer, it makes sense.
Lastly, that is part of the point of this killer. His powers are very strong, but have very long cooldowns and there are ITEMS that completely counter these powers. Look for items, and get the haste one, and now suddenly its even less of a problem, forcing him to use 2 spells on you in a chase (38 second cooldown remember) in order to even land that single hit.
As for your other comment on it being "overtuned" it was already tuned differently in the PTB, and you know what? It was completely useless, because at nearly every loop in the game (minus the already terrible pallets that are useless anyway) the killer was slowed down so much that they physically could not get around the loop before the pallet was unblocked, making the power literally completely useless. I have tested it, and right now it is just BARELY possible to block a pallet, and get around the loop 1 more time to land a hit at SOME of the loops in the game before the survivor gets around again, and it isn't even at all of them.
So how exactly is it uncounterable again?
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3733200#Comment_3733200
A bit off to say people refuse to cleanse against purge and calling her power a secondary objective... If people cleansed against Plague every chance they got the killer would have an even easier game... Whereas against the other killers there is not much of a downside to do the things you listed aside from time loss. But cleansing against Plague has to be a conscious decision every time because of the buff she can pick up after you cleansed.
Not cleansing is what leads plagues to getting 4 downs immediately because they use addons for free fountains. So you infect everyone, use a fountain, and suddenly everyone is downed.
If you stay cleansed, yeah she gets her offensive power more often, but your aren't injured, and you can pallet stun her out of it.
But lets not argue over a single killer when i listed a dozen killers
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@KateMain86 said:
As the title says, this is just tiresome and boring at this point. I don't fully understand the new killer's abilities yet but what I do know is that like many of the other recent killers pallets offer little value and distance serves almost no purpose. I throw a pallet and this new killer still hits me. I make distance between this killer and get hit from a spell a mile away. I'm just over it. Its the same thing over and over again just with different visuals than the last killer.
What does everyone else think? Am I the only one that feels this way or are you seeing this trend continue and growing tired of it?
The reason this happens is because when the devs make m1 based killers that have powers that delay the game or force survivors to not do gens, they complain about it. See:
- Trapper
- Paying attention to your surroundings and removing traps
- Wraith
- Paying attention to your surroundings and keeping yourself healed
- Freddy (before he was useless)
- Removing the dream world with the clocks
- Pig
- Removing the traps
- Legion
- Mending
- Plague
- Cleansing at shrines
- Blight (minus hug tech)
- Fastest map traversal in the game
- Nemesis
- Zombies
- Cenobite
- The Box
- Sadako
- Removing condemn
- Knight
- Chasing 2 survivors at once, using guards to break things etc.
- Skull Merchant
- Survivors need to do drones.
Every time they make one of these killers where the counter to them isn't to just shift+w to a corner and hold m1 on gens, survivors complain and the killers are either nerfed, or left in weak states.
- Trapper is still useless
- Wraith was nerfed multiple times because people complained about it
- Freddy was gutted
- Pig is the only one who got anything decent recently
- Legion is still in a horrible state and perks constantly get nerfed because of them
- People STILL refuse to just cleanse against the damn plague and then complain about being injured the whole time
- Blight has been gutted multiple times at this point
- Nemesis zombies are still terrible and he still has to hit you 3 times for some reason
- Any good gameplay around the box for pinhead was completely nerfed and made useless, and the rest of his power is barely a power.
- Sadako has been reworked multiple times because people refuse to do tapes
- Knight is still horrible because they refuse to lean into the power of chasing multiple survivors, guards will never catch anyone on their own. Leading to the most boring playstyle being the most encouraged and viable.
- People still rage quit against skull merchant despite the fact that her power is so watered down now that the only "power" she really has is stealth and the fact that she gets random movement speed increases unexpectedly.
The reality is, the way this game is balanced is around time. Everything revolves around time, so a killer's power either needs to:
- Buy them time in the chase
- Buy them time outside of the chase
In the chase has to mean anti-loop. There is no way around that.
Outside of the chase is forcing secondary objectives to get survivors off of gens.
So, if people complain about anti-loop powers. People complain about game delay powers, they complain about stealth powers, they complain about traversal powers. What exactly is a killer power you would want to go against, that you think would be fun, that would actually lead to a competitively viable killer?
- Trapper
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@Zaydin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3732689#Comment_3732689
Like I said, if you fail to land a hit quickly after using Mage Hand, you just gave the Survivor a free Any Means Necessary reset on the pallet.
Ah, i misinterpreted it as "it gets broken" as in, the iri makes it OP, not that it "physically breaks the pallet"
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@Zaydin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3732638#Comment_3732638
Yes. And it also means they can drop the pallet again if Vecna can't land a hit. Only way it gets broken is if you use an Iri addon.
Only in a corner or something where they have nowhere to run to. But the iri addon takes longer to break than just breaking the pallet. So its not really good for that either.
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@Lit said:
Whilst I am very happy to have Vecna in the game, the instant pallet pickup is ridiculous.
Very very little CoolDown to the killer, for insta-picking up a pallet and allowing a hit.
Who thought this was a good idea?
I'm actually not that against the other abilities having a stupidly little CD, but Mage Hand needs to be revisited as current state, this killer is overtuned imo.
Its just barely in a good spot now. It has a 38 second cooldown, it SHOULD result in a 50/50
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@FrenchBagels said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3732298#Comment_3732298
Yeah and you have the other side of the point being that the Mage Hand pallet pickup guarantees a hit since the survivor is slowed down after the pallet drop and can’t make another loop. This is not considering the overkill addon that makes it faster to pickup.
The pallet block was useless. Not the pickup. But now that both have the same speed, there’s nothing a survivor can do if Vecna is already caught up enough to begin using Mage Hand. Which is why Enduring is effective. And to remind you, you don’t even need Enduring, just use Mage Hand close enough without getting stunned and you can get about the same value.
And to be honest, I don’t think the point of the Killer was to pray you got Interloper specifically.
Already answered now
@Peanits said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3732177#Comment_3732177
On this, I just wanted to chime in and clarify that it is not intended. Mage Hand is meant to be cancelled if the pallet stuns him before it activates. We'll be fixing this in an upcoming release.
The pallet stun thing is a bug. But the point is, the power still allows you to block a pallet. So, that part also needs to be good too.
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@FrenchBagels said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3732293#Comment_3732293
Yeah. I know. Cool. That wasn’t the argument. We’re talking about Mage Hand in general too, you know. Not just Enduring even though it amplifies it.
That is my point. Mage hand was terrible on PTB, because the slowdown was so much, that if you block a pallet, it was not physically possible to get around fast enough to actually have the pallet blocking be useful. So, they decreased the slowdown (which is still slower than a survivor BTW) just enough so that now you actually have a shot of catching up to them.
Why would you ever use the power to block a pallet, if blocking a pallet means that the survivor gets around the loop and can drop the pallet anyway? The point of blocking the pallet needs to actually be useful to use it.
Part of the counter of this killer is to use items and the fact that spells have a very long cooldown.
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@FrenchBagels said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3732280#Comment_3732280
Vecna still had the Enduring stun mind game in PTB. The slowdown still worked with longer loops and especially Shack.
Not every loop that isn’t already unsafe.
A perk should not be required for the power to function.
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@FrenchBagels said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3732251#Comment_3732251
The slowdown is so, so minimal. It was like Xeno slowdown when he didn’t get punished for it.
Vecna does not slow down much for pallet pickup. Not for pallet hold either. And none for canceling. In all three scenarios he can close the gap super quickly.
The only scenario this doesn’t apply are the double pallet tile spawn in Greenville Square and Interloper. Again, it’s early to tell, but that seems like the play right now with he’s current speed while using Mage Hand.
And when it was like it was on PTB the ability literally did nothing.
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@ad19970 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3732217#Comment_3732217
Yeah exactly. How much counterplay there is to Mage Hand is yet to be seen in my opinion, but there is some. If it's not quite enough, they can always quickly reduce the movement speed of his Mage Hand cooldown a bit.
It is counterable. It is just a proper 50/50.
Either:
- The survivor drops the pallet
- The survivor keeps running
If the survivor drops the pallet, and the vecna guesses right, they land a hit. If they don't, the survivor gets some distance either through a late pickup with mage hand, or breaking the pallet.
If the survivor keeps running, and the vecna guesses right, they continue looping, and get closer to the survivor, maybe landing a hit if the survivor can't make it around the loop. If they guess wrong, they block the pallet, but now the survivor is further away, the vecna is slowed, and the survivor has plenty of time to get around the loop, or to another one.
For something on a 38 second cooldown, a 50/50 seems more than reasonable.
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@drsoontm said:
Do you have some people ignored?
That was IT, i had some people i accidentally ignored, what a silly thing for that feature to not work. Thanks!
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@drsoontm said:
Do you have some people ignored?
I don't think so, but that's a good idea, i'll check.
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@dbd900bach said:
As we all know, when Dead by Daylight started out, the asymmetrical horror genre was in its infancy with no popular titles to its name. Nothing that stood out to make the genre pop. Then came along dbd which in a stroke of luck, completely dominated the genre andis the first game to make the asymmetrical horror genre popular. Once it got Halloween as a chapter, there was no stopping them and there was certainly no game to compete with them.
Over the years we've had a great deal of games try to plant themselves in the genre, automatically contesting with dbd yet they ultimately fail for one reason or another. Most simply died out, too small or undeveloped to keep an audience. Others faced technical issues, development and financial issues that prevented them progressing any further. Noticeably the most promising games faced these issues like Last Year. Friday the 13th seemed like the only game that held its own, yet ultimately ended up in limbo due to the licensing court battles. Yet at the end of the tunnel, Dbd still stands strong many years later while other titles drowned out.
So why? I know I've listed a lot of reasons, yet no game has even touched the popularity and potential that dbd has. Any game that comes close faces one problem or another that fizzles it out, while every other game is incapable of going further. What's this limbo that these games keep falling into?
The problem most asymmetrical games like this face is a few things.
- Balance. Usually the game is horribly balanced, and even DBD is horribly balanced IMO, but its the most balanced of this horribly balanced genre, if that makes sense. If a game is unfair for the "killer" you get situations like VHS where you just don't want to play. And if it is horribly balanced the other way, jason just instantly kills you like in F13.
- Design. Many of these games allow the survivors to fight back against the killer. DBD is the only one where this not the case. All you can do in DBD is run.
- Power dynamics. The problem with asymmetrical games, and DBD imo, is that they need to get the power dynamic right. The one player SHOULD be stronger than one of the players on the other team. Period. Because it is inherently a 1vX. That one player HAS to be stronger than a single one of the X otherwise, why would you ever play the 1? Many games get this wrong.
- Simplicity. DBD is a very complicated game, or is it? You have generators, survivors need to repair them, then they can escape. The killer is trying to stop them from repairing and hook them instead. The gameplay loop in terms of concept is very simple to understand and can be explained to someone in 30 seconds. A lot of these games create a ton of systems that heavily complicate the games in ways that makes them really hard to learn. DBD is definitely complicated, but the complexity is layered on top of the simple idea of the game, rather than it being a part of the game itself.
- Part of what makes DBD good in this case, is that they generally approach things like Magic the Gathering. Magic for example, has very simple rules when you think about it. Players take turns, you can place one land down per turn, you tap things to do stuff, and you can attack on your turn and your opponent can block. But what gives the game complexity is the cards allow you to break those rules. You have cards that let you draw extra cards, or cards that let you place more lands, or destroy lands.
- DBD does this well because the game is so simple, and then the perks and the items "break" the rules of the game.
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
Lightborn exists. It does the same thing for killers that distortion does for survivors: Shut down a gameplay style.
Literal balance.
Correct, but the difference is the game is a 1v4. By design killer perks should be stronger, because survivors have 16 perks and the killer only has 4. So lightborn to fully counter blinds makes sense.
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@notdragonite said:
Perhaps the most debated perk in the game’s history, Distortion is notorious for causing frustration for many killers for being regarded as “too strong” or “gives too much too survivors with no down side” etc, etc. and along with these sentiments comes with complaints and suggested changes.
To provide context and give a basis to the argument, I am a survivor main with a Survivor to Killer ratio of around 65%:35% (estimated).
As of currently (and has been since patch 6.1.0), Distortion has given the following benefits to survivors:
- Start the trial with 3 tokens
- Whenever your aura is supposed to be shown to the killer, a token is consumed activating Distortion for 10 seconds. Your aura will not be shown for this duration and your scratch marks are hidden
- Being inside the killers terror radius by any means for 30 seconds will grant you an extra token
Now the reason I had to emphasise “by any means” is that distortion works differently compared to other perks that grant tokens whilst in the killers terror tissue. For example, Stake Out grants tokens whilst in the killers terror radius whilst standing, meaning injured, healthy or whatever aslong as you are up. HOWEVER, Distortion will grant tokens (for some reason) REGARDLESS of your situation, so long as you meet the requirement of being within the terror radius, by this I mean you could be on hook, or down on the ground and still gain tokens. Now I assume this is a bug, but I wouldn’t put my money on it.
This aspect of the perk (I believe) has gone unnoticed by the community, but those who do realise it have probably added it to their list of reasons of why Distortion should be nerfed.
Personally, I don’t see a massive problem with distortion, I think it’s a fairly adequate perk to have in one’s build and really helps against these strong aura perks, but I can completely understand from a killers perspective that certain perks in your build are completely countered by one perk that essentially lasts the whole game. Although, whilst this is the case, Distortion’s pick rate is not as high as you would expect it to be considering its huge benefits.
Regardless, moving forward, I will suggest some changes to bring the perk to a safer and toned down version to ensure that it’s still a valid choice whilst simultaneously not causing killer mains a huge amount of hassle.
Updated Distortion:
- Start the trial with 4 tokens (was 3)
- Whenever your aura is supposed to be revealed to the killer, a token is consumed activating Distortion for 15 seconds. During this time, your scratch marks will not be revealed to the killer and your aura will be hidden (changed the duration to 15 seconds instead of 10 seconds)
- If you are the obsession, gain 1 token for every 40 seconds (was 30 seconds) spent inside the killers terror radius (added obsession requirement)
- Increases your chances of being the obsession at the start of the game (new effect)
- Standardised Distortion to only give tokens whilst standing up injured or healthy (was regardless of situation)
Overall, some of the numbers have been tweaked and it’s been made so that you can only gain tokens if you are the obsession.
The perk needs to be reworked, not because it is too strong, but it results in tunneling gameplay. If i have an aura reading perk, and 1-2 survivors are running distortion and hiding, i'm probably not going to find them, and the result will be a survivor getting tunneled out and getting upset by it.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3730936#Comment_3730936
Yeah, idk about that.
Unsafe pallets are kinda bad for the game. Definitely good for Killer though, makes it extremely easy when all you have to do is respect the pallet and get a free hit.
Likewise, MAYBE you could have a case for Unknown, but Chucky's power is cheeks. Scamper under pallet for a free hit. Not great design
"Unsafe" as in, mindgamable pallets, are ideal. There should be literally 0 god pallets. Pallets should all be mindgamable by a killer.
Why? Because god pallets waste far more time than you realize. Imagine a scenario where the game starts and the killer runs to the end of the map and starts a chase. During this time, 3 survivors hop on 3 different gens.
A single dropped god pallet that MUST be broken by the killer, buys a survivor 10.8 meters of distance, even more if the pallet stuns them, but we are looking at the minimum. That buys a solid 15 seconds of distance on a killer.
That means when you factor in that you have to hit the survivor twice, they get a speed boost for the first hit, and you just predrop a god pallet that you have to break, then the survivor just shift +w to the furthest corner of the map, the killer is going to lose 3 gens before they can even hook that survivor.
God pallets are bad for the game, because they are just too easy. There is no skill involved in pressing spacebar predropping, and still continuing to run. It isn't fun.
Every single pallet should be mindgamable, and the pallet STUN is what should reward the survivor with distance gained, not just the nature of dropping the pallet. I think pallet STUNS should be INCREASED to around 4 seconds (and then enduring reworked or nerfed) and every pallet should become mindgamable if dropped. That way, the goal of the survivor is to stun the killer to get away, not just predrop some RNG placed pallet that guarantees them 15 seconds of free distance while their team powers through gens.
And when i say mindgamable, i mean that 50/50. It still isn't even a guaranteed hit if you don't get the stun on the pallet. Every loop, every structure, and every pallet, should be designed like an LT wall, where it is a pure 50/50 (is the killer going to keep running? Or are they going to double back?) and if you guess right, you get some distance to either do another go around, or maybe you gain enough distance to run to the next loop and attempt to get the pallet stun at that one.
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@BbQz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3729869#Comment_3729869
Well I like the how does that stop? Tunneling if everybody shares the hook state, you're going to have to get through those hooks anyways so you might as well just keep targeting, camping and hooking the weak man. As now you've gotten the people who are actually skilled on their second hook state. Obviously you don't have the answers to all situations as this is just a idea you came up with, but I personally been stuck on hook for all three of my health States because people are just oblivious they're focused on what they're doing. What happens when a survivor is stuck on hook for six states? What kind of user experience are we giving them where they can't get off the hook? They can't struggle and they can't leave without penalty? And you can bet your bacon. There's going to be three man survive with friends that are going to do that just because they think it's funny
And somebody who really just doesn't like that killer and doesn't care that they need to get six hooks and they just keep running towards the killer. Now you took a person who was originally just going to give up and be out of the game, making it a 3v1 which while unlikely is still winnable to now he's stolen everybody's first hook states I think that turns this into a team game which while I've had some convincing conversations about it, I've never been convinced this is a team game… p We don't win together. We lose individually. We don't share points. We earn them individually. Our MMR goes down even if the rest of my survive with friends escape while survivors have a shared goal, it's always better for the killer to hook someone else besides you if you're both on death Hook with all that being said, it's bad enough. Survivors can sandbag me intentionally or unintentionally drop the killer on me in Chase in order to save themselves. Now I have to worry about a bad player making my game worse.
Because if you are tunneling the same guy over and over again, you have 1 survivor that goes for the save sure, but the other 2 survivors just get to power through gens for 6 hooks. You still have to down and hook that person, even if you hard tunnel them. So generally even if you spend 30 seconds doing that, the guy is on the hook probably for at least 15-20 seconds. So you are talking at least 50-60 seconds of 2 survivors just powering through gens times 6. If 2 survivors can't finish 5 gens in 6 minutes, with a 3rd supporting periodically between each hook state. They are doing something wrong.
Also survivors can make that call to NOT unhook the guy, because it takes 6 minutes to power through those hook states. So if the killer is waiting for the save to hard tunnel they are gonna be waiting a while.
Also, giving up should be a bannable, up to PERMABAN for doing it constantly. It ruins games more than anything else, and if you just take a look around. If someone wants out of the game because they don't like it that much, they should DC, sandbagging is bannable as well, so no issues there if someone "intentionally sandbags" they get banned for it, so that'll be the deterrant of that.
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@HexHuntressThighs said:
And they tried making it to where she went from 77% when holding a hatchet to 88% while still being a 110% killer. People were sobbing and puking because it was such a Giga buff (it wasn’t)
I can’t wait to see the kill rates and still see her at the bottom. Oh well, it is what it is.
Na, kill rates will still be super high because devs allow people to kill themselves on hook and nope out, which heavily inflates the kill rates so everything "looks fine here" because they hit their magical "60% kill rate number" despite the fact that the kill rate is only there because in probably 25% of your matches (if not more when you play the killers that are perceived as more "annoying") someone just DCs, or gives up immediately because something doesn't go slightly their way.
Its only gonna get worse too now that there is no depipping. So there is literally no penalty for doing so. You'll see kill rates start to spike up near the 70% (like skull merchant is) for most of these killers. I suspect this is WHY you are seeing nerfs for all these gen defense perks. Because they see those games tend to result in higher kill rates. But are ignoring that survivors get a gen pain resed and then just give up half the time.
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@C3Tooth said:
After a hooking, how much time does it take a killer to start a new chase? Blight Nurse Wesker is within 5sec. Other has to take 10sec. Which means 30sec of a hook, Blight Wesker is already 25sec in chase, while other has 20sec. Start chase early is an advantage.
115% may not catch a survior to another tile, but 230% does
Patrolling a wrong Gen? let 230% makes up your mistake.
A chased survivor is outskill you and you just can not catch them? It takes 5sec to start chase with another survivor. Before the chased one even know you left.
Speed is just everything.
Its not even quite that.
The games is balanced around a chase lasting 45 seconds for both hits. That seems somewhat reasonable level for both sides to have some interaction. But taking 45 seconds per chase, not tunneling and not camping means that
0 hooks: 45 x 3 = 135 seconds
each other hook is 45 seconds of time (1 survivor on gen, 1 survivor in chase, 1 survivor on hook, 1 survivor saving)
so 7 more hooks is 7 x 45 = 315 + 45 = 4 generators.
This seems reasonable, if every chase lasted 45 seconds exactly and survivors were always doing something useful, but there is a lot of dead air there for both killers (and survivors, in finding generators and dealing with killer mechanics like pinhead box etc.) but the killer dead air is FAR LONGER than people realize.
One of the things i like to point out, is that people don't realize actually HOW long it takes a killer to hook a survivor. This isn't just a survivor who you have to find, chase, then down and then hook. I'm talking, you just downed the survivor, they are laying on the ground at your feet, how long does it actually take you to physically pick them up and take them to a hook?
Well, there's usually around 9 hooks on average spawned in a map (+ the 4 in basement). A map is usually around 100 x 100 square meters on average. So if you placed all of these hooks relatively equidistant to each other, you are seeing hooks spread out around in 3rds in that square. So basically, you have hooks around 33 meters apart from each other on average. So, from any point on the map, you are at minimum right next to a hook, and at maximum 33 meters away from a hook. So on average you are 17 meters from a hook. Killers move 3.68 m/s while carrying a survivor. So now we can do some math.
- 2.7 attack animation cooldown
- probably a 1 second (fiddle) to pick the survivor up due to them "teleporting around a bit" usually in my experience
- 3 second pick up animation
- 2 seconds to look around and find the nearest hook
- 17/3.68 m/s = ~5 seconds to walk to said hook
- 1.5 second hooking animation.
That means you spend a total of:
2.7 + 1 + 3 + 2 +5 + 1.5 = 15.2 seconds to just hook the survivor.
That's if the survivor doesn't do the obvious better play and run to what we call "comp corner" where when they know they are gonna get downed, they just run straight to the corner of the map, which is as far from a hook as you can possibly get. Doing that, now adds 5 more seconds to that time.
So if a chase is balanced around lasting 45 seconds on average, hooking a survivor costs a 3rd of a chase. Which is where so much of the dead air occurs. People underestimate just HOW MUCH time killers spend trying to hook a survivor. This doesn't even factor in things like:
- The survivor got downed under a pallet, so now you need to do a quick look around to make sure nobody is going for a save
- Other survivors coming to body block.
- Survivors coming to flashlight save
- Survivors sabotaging the hook you are walking to.
Once you factor all of these things in, then the fact that you have to FIND the survivors to chase, you realize why killers usually lose 2-3 gens in the first chase, and why tunneling and camping is so prevalent. Because as a killer you simply do not have TIME to play nicely if the survivors are "just doing gens".
The game is balanced around survivors roleplaying the role of a survivor. As in, they are scared of the killer, scared to do gens because gens are noisy, when they hear a terror radius they immediately go hide somewhere because the big scaring killer is coming.
The reality is, once you throw out that roleplay element, and survivors realize they can just do gens in killer's faces while they are picking up a survivor or other things, and they stop roleplaying the horror game? The game balance falls apart.
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@Darkest_Night said:
For one of the most prolific killers, the Cenobite has one of the absolute weakest powers in the entire game. His box is honestly a cool concept, but.....the conditions to activate any hunt are extremely difficult for what it is. If you could change how the box operates to make it more viable what would you do? Looking for both killer and Survivor honest input
He's in a pretty good spot tbh, he needs a few QOL changes and bug fixes:
- Impaling wire should become basekit
- Make it so pinhead doesn't break the chains when he is chasing a survivor, only the environment/other survivors can.
- Fix the FOV bug on the chain
- Fix box spawn logic to not be exploitable by killer on maps like lerys where it has like 2 possible spawn points.
- Fix box spawn logic so its not exploitable by survivor on maps like lerys.
- Rework original pin addon so you can't use it to hard tunnel.
Cool iri idea:
- Make iridescent lament basekit, but increase the range to 48 meters. Make the addon hide the aura completely, and give it a terror radius (so survivors can find it via terror radius, but its a bit spooky and can synergize with terror radius perks)
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A better solution to survivors is to make it impossible to remove a survivor from the trial early. My suggestion to address camping, and tunneling is usually as follows:
- Remove the 4% mechanic so survivors can't nope out early
- Remove the AFC mechanic, you won't need it.
- Survivors now share the 1st hook state.
- Basekit kindred so you know what your teammates are doing and if the killer is camping
Sharing only the first hook state means, if you hook someone, then tunnel them, then hook them, then tunnel them, then hook them, you didn't kill them, you just burned through 3 of the survivor's shared health states. Which mean the absolute earliest it becomes possible to eliminate a survivor from the game, is on the 6th hook.
Also, because you only share the FIRST hook state, and not all of them, you won't feel cheated because the rest of your team wasted all the hook states and now you are dead on your first chase. This way at worst, you'll still get a "second" chance that is all your own.
This also means weaker players are able to play in teams with their friends on not be afraid of just dying immediately.
Camping basically becomes nonexistant, because sitting through 6 hook states to remove someone from the game is a full 6 minutes. More than enough time for the other 3 survivors to finish 5 gens, 99 both gates, and coordinate a save to get all 4 out.
Tunneling becomes pointless, because tunneling someone for 6 hook states means just that much longer that the other survivors go unbothered working on gens, so you'll have to spread pressure.
I'd couple this with some basekit changes and perk changes for killer to make it so you can play the game without taking 4 slowdown perks as well, but in general this is one of the simpler ways to deal with the issue imo.
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@Pulsar said:
We add a reasonable comeback mechanic for Survivor.
The match can often feel over due to either the oppressive nature of some Killers, a matchmaker mismatch, the prevalence of anti-gen perks, the prevalence of certain exceedingly effective playstyles or plain bad luck.
This should be remedied. Just as Killers often stage a comeback over time, Survivor should be given a reasonable, I stress that word, ability to recover from early-game issues.
Do killers get a reasonable comeback mechanic too? Because it certainly feels horrible to have someone predrop a single god pallet, run to a corner of the map and have 3 gens get done before you land your first hook.
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@XombieJoker said:
SM takes 0 skill. plop M2 in a loop, loop no longer safe to play, run off to another loop but HEY SM is not slowed or disabled when she plops down a drone, not like other killers like Knight or Singularity. Her drones AoE barely show in the environment to the survivor causing players to be tagged by the drones at max range from a window at the loop because coincidence the detection beam was just in the right spot at the right time. She applies the most status effects BASE KIT. She gets stealth for dropping a drone, haste for every detected survivor, survivors who get a claw trap are injured/deep wound and broken and if detected by a drone with a claw trap get hindered by 10% all because at a single tap of M2 she shits out results. Whereas other killers have to aim or properly position their power SM takes 0 thought process. She's not strong but with how little it takes to play her, she sees too much results.
Crouching to avoid the detection lasers is not optimal when being chased by her but if all SM mains thinks she has plenty of counters, then do get together for some scrims and prove it. No perks to help counter her (this is to be like a random encounter so no Urban Evasion etc) and no going easy for the SM killer to try and push a false 'she can be countered' narrative. If she is as counter-able as claimed then 20 matches should have 20 3-4 player escapes right
Again, please explain how that is different than:
- Trapper
- Hag
- Clown
- Artist
- Dredge
- Knight
- Singularity (when you don't have emp)
They work functionally the same that you said about SM. They drop their power, and you just leave the loop.
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@Akeeno said:
- Bayshore's Gold Tooth
Increases the Speargun's reeling speed by 5%. (was 9%)
- Snake Oil
Increases the Speargun's reeling speed by 2.5%. (was 5%)
LIVE:
slingers current reeling speed is 2.6 m/s or 65% movement speed.
- when using snake oil (5%) is 2.8 m/s or 70 percent movement speed
- when using bayshores gold tooth (9%) is 2.96 m/s or 74 percent movement speed
- when using both addons (14%) it brings it up to 3.16 m/s or 79 % movement speed
PTB:
in the upcoming changes slinger will reel at 2.76 m/s or 69% movement speed
so snake oil isnt even basekit, its a change of 4%
- when using snake oil (2.5%) is 2.86 m/s or 71.5 percent movement speed
- when using bayshores gold tooth (5%) is 2.96 m/s or 74 percent movement speed
- when using both (7.5%) it brings it to 3.06 m/s or 76.5 percent movement speed
so in the ptb stacking both is slower than live, thus a nerf. it should remain as how it currently is at 5 and 9 .
the 2 addons are ranked low by many slinger mains, so are currently niche, if they are nerfed, they will be borderline useless.
That's not how these addons work.
Old:
- No addon: 2.6 m/s
- Gold Tooth: 2.834 m/s
- Snake Oil: 2.73 m/s
- Both: 2.964 m/s
New:
- No addon: 2.76 m/s
- Gold Tooth: 2.898 m/s
- Snake Oil: 2.829 m/s
- Both: 2.967 m/s
In all cases, you reel slightly faster after the changes regardless of which combination of addons you took. And on top of that, these addons are worthless. Why would you ever take these and not the cigar/keys?
- Bayshore's Gold Tooth
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3729163#Comment_3729163
It’s different because:
Trapper, Hag, and Knight all have to stop moving in order to do it, giving you time to reach another loop.
Artist and Dredge slow themselves down, giving you an opportunity to reach another loop, or if you can’t, you usually still have a chance to win a mindgame, even if you are at a disadvantage. If you have to, you can usually still try to juke Artist’s crow if you have no other option (or run into it without it hitting you to take a swarm and not get hit by it). It’s not an ideal situation for the survivor, but it’s not a guaranteed hit either.
Singularity doesn’t slow down to place a pod but has to stop moving to actually look through it. And even if you get slipstreamed that does not automatically translate to an injure, there is still more counterplay beyond that.
Whereas Skull Merchant can quickly place a drone while maintaining full movement speed. If you leave the loop to avoid a drone, you’re likely just giving her an m1, especially if she’s 3% faster which she often will be. If you instead try to use loops where drones have been disabled, this doesn’t help you because it can just be recalled and replaced.
Now granted, the old Skull Merchant could also do this, but there were 2 key differences: Lock On wasn’t permanent (it regressed over time), AND it wasn’t an automatic injure, it just made you exposed. So in that sense, it was more tolerable because she still needed to actually hit you in order to do any damage, she couldn’t get any injure passively. If you got locked on but then didn’t get hit, then you were still healthy and she didn’t gain anything.
But you are forgetting the big difference here. She doesn't lose movement speed because she ultimately is still an m1 killer.
Also, her drone is not that much of a threat. You leave the loop with her, and she hits you, now you get yourself to killer shack. What happens. She drops a drone? Ok, just keep looping. The hindered isn't enough for you to not be able to get away.
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@Junylar said:
Somehow nurse is the most susceptible to this, sometimes you can't hit a survivor who is literally at your face.
Nurse's lunge after a blink is shorter than regular lunge, so its a bit more susceptible to it.
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3729163#Comment_3729163
Clown requires reload, Haste given to both side, and not hide TR when coming.
Artist is hated by many
Dredge anti loops drop his speed to 92%, not 117%.
Knight is hated by many
I dont buy and play or play against Singu so cant really tell.
Trapper and Hag require time to go to the exact place, require time to crouch and set. Trapper & Hag can spawn a trap under them without those time is another story. And Trapper's traps do not have a 'hitbox' equal to a tile.
- If clown is reloading in a chase he is doing it wrong
- Dredge sure, but he's still anti-loop that is countered by leaving the loop.
- Trapper and hag make you leave the loop.
Right, but if its about the terror radius as well then we throw in:
- Pig
- Myers
- Ghostface
- Wraith
etc.
The point is people seem to not like her for reasons that exist on other killers. So i'm confused as to why people actually hate her NOW, not from before, but NOW.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
There is a difference between "not fun" and "too strong". Skull Merchant is strong, but not too strong. Yet she is really unfun to go against.
Part of it is most likely due to her reputation, she will never lose this. But even reworked Skull Merchant is really not enjoyable to play against, regardless of her strength.
My question is why? What makes her unfun to play against currently? She drops a drone at a loop and you can either leave it or not. So she's a "leave the loop" kind of killer.
How is that any different than.
- Trapper
- Hag
- Clown
- Artist
- Dredge
- Knight
- Singularity (when you don't have emp)