Reinami
Reinami
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- Reinami
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@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3718422#Comment_3718422
Do we also get a functioning matchmaking system since you want to treat DBD like a serious comp game? Or do killers still get their 1500 win streaks while survivors continue to get thrown into matches that are lost in the first 30 seconds?
If you don't want to treat it like a comp game, feel free to not, your mmr will reflect that and you'll get matched with like minded people.
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@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3717019#Comment_3717019
they then can go afk
they can throw the match
they can just walk around and do nothing
Sure, some of these things can be a bannable offense, but playing the game badly on purpose is not. Good luck trying to prove they are throwing the game.
And all of that just to stay in a game that is unwinnable. I rather go next asap
I much much much MUCH prefer having 300 games in a row with a survivor giving up at 5 gens than not having my games saved by a self unhook
Sure, those things should be bannable then.
If they can do it in CS, or LoL, or DotA, ban you for afking, or for "feeding" (throwing) then we can do it in DBD. You can fix the walking around nothing, by giving you crows (aka, afk) status, if you don't do something productive after a minute or 2.
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@Pit_Bull_Love said:
Yeah, yeah...if you nerf killer we're gonna camp, tunnel, and slug...more.
Killers already win 60% of their games....let that sink in....
Do you also believe that skull merchant is the most overpowered killer in DBDs history? And that nurse is one of the worst killers? Because the stats you cite also say those 2 facts as well.
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Every single tournament, always had someone running DS (usually tournaments restrict perks, so only 1 survivor ran it, but if all 4 could run it, all 4 would run it).
Why would that be the case if the perk is so bad?
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@I_CAME said:
My guy the kill rate has risen by more than 10% since 6.1. Weak killers are being buffed left and right. Maps are being turned into massive deadzones with few good pallets. Do I need to go into how nearly every good survivor perk has been nerfed in the last few years? How can you objectively look at the state of the game and pretend like the devs favor survivors?
If you really want to balance around high level play then give all survivors voice comms and make the MMR strict like it is in actual competitive games. If they did that you guys would change your mind about balancing around high level gameplay because you would be playing against a SWF every match at high MMR. People say they want to balance around high level players but don't actually want to play against high level players.
Where is your data on those kill rates?
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@drsoontm said:
This is shown from a survivor's perspective and, yes, there is a clear advantage.
However, tracking red feels more important as killer so I'd say this stuff will help killers more.
I mean, finding a speck of red that I wouldn't otherwise see from far away is bound to help me track survivors.
He has been playing both sides on the experiment. And this isn't an "us vs them" thing, this is cheating.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3716106#Comment_3716106
Gladly you are not a Dev because that is a horrible idea... Not only is it questionable to try to ban people for using filters provided by the graphics cards it also puts such things on the same level as cheats which is bonkers... That's something not even remotely comparable...
The filters are enabled by BHVR themselves, people have already stated so in the thread. If they removed those hooks in the game, then the filters would not work.
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@Archol123 said:
And what would that change if it gave you an advantage? It is white listed to use just like Nvidia or AMD filters or using the options the monitor gives you...
If i were the developers i would not whitelist it. Simple. I would remove the filters that make it so these are possible, and i would take reports of people using this type of thing very seriously, and use easy anti-cheat to detect and ban people for using it.
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I really did too.
I don't use reshade out of principle. You are using a 3rd party program to gain an advantage, in my mind, that is hacking plain and simple. It is no different than me using "hacks" to increase my movement speed. It is using something that is not in the game, to give me an advantage over other players.
I never really saw it as that big of a deal though, giving that much of an advantage, and it wasn't really a big deal to me. Then when i saw this experiment my jaw dropped. This thing gives SO much advantage that it may as well be a requirement to play the game at a high level.
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@For_The_People said:
As a lower ability player, I have my hands full (as a survivor) even with killers that may be considered ‘average’, but in reading your post through the lens of someone who constantly comes up against cracked survivors I can understand your point of view.
Reading comments and replies, everyone makes coherent and understandable views too and it seems there is almost two or three different games within the same structure and that balancing is a total nightmare where catering to one subset (higher, low or average) of players can have a devastating effect on others.I wonder if BHVR should have a context based value for their perks where if someone reaches a certain MMR then the values change?
Easier said than done I’m sure but what do you think? Also I wonder if there should be a little change to the mechanics for different MMR stages so in effect actually making the game three different games in one.
This really is the problem. And when i post these things on the forum people think i don't care about the "average" player. But i'm honestly not that great as survivor. I run into the same types of things you do when i play survivor, so i know what it is like. The reality is there are different games being played here and people tend to ignore the ones they aren't playing without realizing that they are not the only target demographic.
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@Ebonbane2000 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3715628#Comment_3715628
If you can only "not struggle" with Nurse (pretty broken killer in the right hands) or Blight, you may be punching above your weight.
Gen regression is making your issue even worse. Because you're winning matches you should probably lose. The games you play shouldn't make you feel you have to use 3-4 specific perks. Dropping in MMR would be good for you.
They also, shouldn't be cakewalks. Which is probably the way it was prior to you getting back to back 3 and 4 man SWFs.
One side furthers their goal by 33% (4 hooks) and it undoes 20% of the other sides progress automatically-PR; gives away their position; while also locking out the other side from their goal for 44% of the base required time-GE; in addition to being locked out 22% of the base required time just for doing their goal-DL.
Surely, you can understand that stacking has gotten a tad excessive and unfun. Redoing the work already done without any interaction from the killer directly (I left POP out on purpose).
It's like the constant resets when green medkits and CoE were meta. It wasn't fun watching someone heal the damage you did in the time you stopped to swing at their prot hit soaking teammate. Adding a health state in under 8 seconds had to be removed (although, I think the nerf was a tad excessive) and understandably so.
Try playing trapper some time.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
Okay now do it with filters that normal people use to colour correct, sharpen, etc instead of this monstrosity that gave me a migraine less than an hour after waking up
Have you never watched a tournament? People do use these types of filters.
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@Ebonbane2000 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3715613#Comment_3715613
Are you struggling to win?
When i play nurse? No. When i play non top tier killers? Every game is a massive uphill battle to get lucky to even draw.
You probably are wasting your time going down this path. I have 3.5k hours in this game.
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@Ebonbane2000 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3715565#Comment_3715565
Are you struggling to 4K against soloQ groups? Yes or no? Are you struggling to win against SWF friends clowning around? Yes or no?
I rarely get those players, the majority of my games are high skill survivors who are trying to win at all costs. Almost every game has at least 2-3 players queued up, with a high number of games having a full SWF based on their name coordination and such. If i can, i also will ask them at the end of the game, and they often say they are SWFs
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@Ebonbane2000 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3715042#Comment_3715042
Because you have one survivor working in your scenario not 3. One on the hook; one making the exact trek you made for the save (except slower to avoid you); one avoid you at their gen or being chased by you; and one on an actual gen. Even a team on comms would have two on gens at most.
You've been around the block enough that you (and many other killer mains) should know this.
Is this going to make it harder to go against SWF sweats? Yes. But can you honestly tell me that you're having trouble taking down soloQ groups, and SWF clowning groups.
You forget though, that the math aint mathing.
Chases are balanced around lasting 45 seconds. So lets say you have an "average" 45 second chase.
- 45 seconds
- 2.7 wipe animation
- 3 second pickup animation
- 10 seconds to walk to a hook
- 1.5 second hook animation
- ~11 seconds to walk from any corner of the map to the middle of the map, or from the middle to any corner
That means that one hook took you, 45 + 2.7 + 3 + 10 + 1.5 + 11 = 73.2 seconds before you can enter another chase.
Lets ignore the fact that you probably just lost 3 gens, because the other 3 survivors were doing something, and lets just look at it being your second chase. Maybe your first chase went really well.
Well, how long does it take a survivor to get off a gen, unhook the hooked survivor, heal them to full and be back in the game? Lets see…
- ~12.5 seconds to walk to the hook (about half a map)
- 1 second unhook animation
- 1 second of "fiddleing" because the game for some reason doesn't let you heal right away.
- 16 seconds to heal
That's: 12.5 + 1 + 1 + 16 = 30.5 seconds. Now we multiply it by 2, because there were 2 survivors and thats 72 seconds.
So it took the killer 73.2 seconds to get the hook, and the survivors only 61 seconds (half that but there are 2 of them) in order to recover from that hook. MEANWHILE, while that was happening, you have 1 survivor sitting on the gen for a solid 60 seconds while one is being chased and these 2 are recovering.
By the time you get that next down, the original 2 survivors who were hooked, are already healed, and repairing a gen for about 15 seconds for a total of 30 seconds (for both of them) and that third survivor was on the gen for 60 seconds. So you again LOSE time hooking a survivor even WHEN you factor in all of that based on how chases are balanced.
Now when you factor in that first chase, survivors have to do 450 seconds of gen progress.
Even if the survivors are relatively inefficient, lets say each gen actually takes them 120 seconds, because they are inefficient, thats 600 seconds of progress. That first chase costs you 216 seconds of progress, leaving you with 384 seconds of progress left. Lets say the killer doesn't camp, and doesn't tunnel and every chase goes exactly the same. What happens? Each hook costs the killer 90 seconds of gen progress. Divide 384 by 90 what do you get? 4.2 hooks.
Even if they are REALLY inefficient, taking 50% longer per gen, thats 675 seconds of progress. So (675 - 216)/90 = 5.1 + 1 hooks.
Lets say they take TWICE as long to do a gen so 180 seconds per gen? (900 - 216)/90 = 7.6 + 1 hooks. NOW its starting to be more fair, because you still have end game, so during the game you got 8 hooks, and now endgame starts, seems reasonable to be able to get 1-2 of them for a draw. But thats STILL at taking TWICE AS LONG to complete each gen than the base. That is HELLA inefficient.
No killer, nor perk combination in the world can make the survivors spend twice as long on gens, other than a nurse who can end chases in probably half the time. What makes survivors take twice as long on gens is them being allergic to doing them for some reason in solo queue.
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@Blueberry said:
I'm hoping that this is actually in anticipation of some big change to be announced at the anniversary that will slow gens down some. Like the early game collapse they talked about long ago. That would at least make some of this make sense.
That's what i'm hoping, but if so why haven't they mentioned it yet? Maybe save it for the live stream? If that were the case they should have said: "we are making some changes that will be revealed later and as such are tweaking these gen defense perks" Some way to give us a hint that something like that is taking place.
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@SignedUp4PTBFeedback said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3715379#Comment_3715379
You cannot win the game before the sides switch, at best you can make it require 1 more round for a win. In the competitive maps at least, the map are not so one-sided for this to happen, the usual cause of this instead is a huge gap in the teams' skill.
Sorry, edited the post. Please see that new comment.
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@SignedUp4PTBFeedback said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3715345#Comment_3715345
Yes, some maps are CT sided, some maps are T sided, some weapons are more effective on some maps on one side, some are on the other side.
But then what happens in CS? Both teams get to play both sides so there is in effect no imbalance because both sides get to play as the stronger and weaker "role" in any given match, in equal proportion.This is too off topic anyway, and i don't want the thread to get closed, so at this point i'm going to disengage from this discussion anyway. If you'd like to continue it, feel free to make a new thread about it and would be happy to participate.
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@Qnikudo said:
"This level seems a bit rough to do this on and only has a total of 190k that you can save, while earning 360k." It's 375k not 360k ?
Maybe i'm missing something, but i have checked it a few times.
There's 6 nodes collected that are 35k and 6 nodes collected that are 25k
so
(6 * 35) + (6 * 25) = 360
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True, the question is if they finally nerfed them too hard. Usually when they have done this, another gen defense perk is buffed in some way, so we are able to just switch to the new one. This time around they just hit all of the good ones left at once. So its a question on whether they are still enough. After doing the math, i don't think they will be, which is why i made this prediction.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3715218#Comment_3715218
Its more of a thing that none of them are as asymmetrical as DbD. If a weapon or class is overpowered, changing it changes it for everyone. So you can just look at one sector of the player base to determine if its a problem.
DbD isn't like that because of the problem with the differing skill floors in the game. Killer is much more straightforward to start, meaning the balance of the game is inherently skewed. On top of this one side of the game can add in SWF and comms which is an option the other side has no access to.
Additionally, the argument suffers from the fact that just because one approach might be successful, doesn't mean its the only approach that is successful. DbD is a wildly successful game after all, so using the same logic if a game did balance just around the top, it would be fair to ask why don't they balance around all skill levels, like DbD does.
CS is inherantly asymmetrical. 1 side is on offense and 1 is defense. And they have different weapons available.
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@Rudjohns said:
It doesnt need any gen regression nerf to start slugging
You can equip Knock Out, Sloppy Butcher and other perks of your choice (perks and add-ons that cause blindness for example, perks for chase or some other slowdown that doesnt need hooking survivors), and always slug. This is without a doubt the most effective way to win any match as killer
I'm not saying that you need to nerf gen regression for it to happen. I'm simply stating that, as they make things less viable, killers will turn to strategies that survivors find "less fun" in order to continue to play in a viable way. So its just going to lead to less fun for everyone.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/413589/how-is-5-second-ds-too-effective
It's a survivor perk. It does a thing that benefits survivors.
That makes it OP.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3715091#Comment_3715091
5 seconds is too long because you can offensively use it in corners of the map and still get somewhere safe
How are you using it offensively in the corner of the map? If a killer chases you all the way into the corner of the map, downs you and picks you up, they deserve to get stunned for 5.
Again, talking about the offensive usages of the perk, like, standing in a doorway and physically using your body with basekit BT to prevent the killer from going after someone else.
The killer can't "chase you to a corner of the map" the survivor dictates where the chase goes.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3715174#Comment_3715174
Well, it sounds like we almost agree, save for saying that balancing for everyone is impossible. It's not, it's just difficult- and it's still necessary.
Players aren't going to have fun if they're facing things that are too strong for them to reasonably deal with outside of just investing thousands of hours into the game. That is relevant to a studio's balancing efforts, it can't be ignored.
Why is it then that some of the most successful and long running games in history are ones that do just that?
- DotA
- LoL
- Counter strike
- Rainbow Six
All of these things are extremely difficult to play and often find you "having to deal with something that takes thousands of hours to be able to get the skill to counter" and yet they are some of the most popular and long running multiplayer games ever made.
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"Too reliant on game mechanics instead of learning the game properly"
What exactly is there other than "game mechanics" that doesn't make any sense.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3715175#Comment_3715175
That is, unfortunately, a consequence of having these 'unfun' strategies continue to exist.
So take those strategies away. What is left?
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@SignedUp4PTBFeedback said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3715148#Comment_3715148
Many high-mobility killers, killers that have basekit slowdown mechanics, or killers with exceptionally good 1v1s. And killer players that can find and exploit survivor mistakes especially in macro play. The grand majority of killer games aren't against a seal team 6 SWF on comms with callouts who never make mistakes. Just like the grand majority of survivor games aren't against a 10k hour Blight streamer on a 1900+ winstreak. Skill is a real factor in DBD games.
Again, just because something is rare, doesn't mean it is balanced.
Why is it ok for those "seal team 6" guys to just queue up and have a near 100% win rate? Why is that ok?
What if there was a killer offering that:
- Made the killer move at 200% movement speed
- Permanently exposed all survivors.
- Permanently revealed the aura of all survivors
- Permanently increased gen times to 180 seconds
- Permanently made it so all survivors are immediately moriable
- Appears in the bloodweb with a 0.01% chance
That offering would be fair right? After all, a 0.01% chance means you'd only see it in one out of every 10,000 games roughly. So that would make it fine right?
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3715124#Comment_3715124
If it's up to killers, the games will -always- go 'too fast'. But nothing in the statistics suggests that this is actually the case.
The point is that, if you continue to make it so killers aren't even able to gain any time by hooking, then why bother hooking at all? Which is the point of this thread.
The problem is that this is always what happens whenever any nerf to killers gets announced. 'If this nerf goes through, I'll just slug/tunnel/camp'.
And this will continue to happen as long as killers feel dissatisfied in any way. Killers have never been able to 'gain time' by hooking, and it's never stopped them from continuing to win games.
This is another reason I detest camp/tunnel/slug strategies. They get pulled out whenever a nerf is announced, almost like a protection racket. Even this thread, in which you yourself do also recommend nerfing all the perks, still has an air to it of 'if we don't get compensatory basekit buffs, I'm gonna slug'.
Its not a threat, its a prediction. If they keep nerfing the things that are viable alternatives to the "unfun" strategies that survivors complain about, then all that is going to happen is more and more killers are going to play in that "unfun" way.
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@SignedUp4PTBFeedback said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3715122#Comment_3715122
And then I retort with
Because survivors shouldn't have to team up on a Discord call with 3 other skilled players to be viable at a high level, especially when the game has trio SWF, duo SWF and solo q all with potentially no comms.
Also, only 2 viable killers would be a pretty disputable number even back when the game was blatantly survivor sided all those years ago, let alone now.What is the bigger problem.
The fact that 95% of the killers are not viable at a high level, or that 5% of the killers are too strong lower levels?
You need to address the thing that impacts the most players. And take a look at these forums, people are tired of seeing blight/nurse/wesker every game.
See my point?
2 things can be true at the same time, there can be multiple problems in play, but there are degrees of problems.
The only REAL solution to SWF is to split the queues, solo queue and SWF are separate queues with separate rules that balance the game for those different types of players.
Personally, i'd like to see a "ranked" mode that is a traditional ranked mode like other games, where there are ranks shown, leaderboards, etc. And that ranked mode is where the SWFs go, and then there is the "solo queue" where you can only queue with 1 other person and a match can only have a single premade (so always 4 solos, or 1 duo and 2 solos). That is a different problem entirely though.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3715119#Comment_3715119
Why?
What would that actually achieve? Wouldn't you inevitably end up in situations where something's too strong for the majority of players but only decently strong for the top, and therefore statistically everyone just has to deal with something being OP because the top players don't struggle against it?
You balance for everyone. It's the only way live service games can work, not exclusively DBD.
Trickle down balance:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1p42KtZOCwImagine a scenario for DBD, where we see killer shack for example.
Killer shack, is one of the strongest structures in the game for survivors. At a high level, a good survivor pretty much can waste a solid 30-40 seconds or more of a killers time just at this single structure, let alone when it is connected to things. But at a low level, what happens? The survivor predrops the pallet the wrong way, gets hit anyway, and now the pallet is gone.
What happens if they nerf this structure? Does it hurt the low level player? No, it does not, because the low level player was not exploiting this structure to its fullest extent anyway. But it does "hurt" the high level player, by bringing the structure more in line.
The same could be said for nurse. If you nerf nurse, you aren't going to hurt the low level killer players, because they already aren't exploiting nurse to her fullest potential, so they aren't going to change anything. But it will hurt the high level nurse players.
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@Firellius said:
What is pain res NOW? 22 seconds off a gen.
Pain res LITERALLY does not pay for itself most of the time. Now you want to nerf it even more?
I don't know where this idea came from of regression needing parity with progression, but it doesn't fly. It's an asymmetrical game. If Killers are doing too well with their regression being weaker than survivors' progression rates, then clearly, having them be on par would push the game to be extremely killer-sided.
Its simply a statement as to how long killer actions actually takes, if you look at other posts, you'll see the main point is quite simply the game goes TOO FAST if you do not have gen defense and aren't playing nurse, which is why every game has gen defense. And the game should not be balanced around that fact, they should buff basekit gen defense and nerf all of the perks, so you'll start to see a wider variety of perks and builds.
The point is that, if you continue to make it so killers aren't even able to gain any time by hooking, then why bother hooking at all? Which is the point of this thread.
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@SignedUp4PTBFeedback said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3715075#Comment_3715075
The reality is, at high levels, when survivors have a whole map
available to them, that first chase can take ages, especially when you
factor in god pallets. Based on times, do you realize that all it takes
is for someone to predrop (yes predrop) 2 god pallets and then run to a
corner of the map and stand there? That is enough time for those 3 gens
to get done.Alright you made a scenario where the first chase lasts 90 seconds, presumably with low tier killers, then I make a scenario with a high tier killer where the chase lasts 20 seconds and make an opposite conclusion to yours. What now? High tier killer against high tier survivors = good, low tier killer against high tier survivors = bad, who could've seen this conclusion coming?
The solution I think is fair and the devs seem to be implementing is cutting gen regression down because it is overly oppressive in the hands of high tier killers, while also handing out buffs to the low tier killers, which is, I repeat, happening in this same patch, and has been happening many patches this year. I don't see how this is a bad direction.
Funnily enough, since you seem to be keeping score of streamers, Otzdarva, who you rank as killer biased, thinks this is, I quote "one of the best sets of patchnotes in recent times". Food for thought about your arguments based on streamers and their biases.Because there should be more than 2 viable killers at a high level, especially when the game has 36 of them.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3715003#Comment_3715003
I don't think we should even pretend like this is a balancing decision from BHVR.
I think it's clear that this is about the animation not working. They wanted it to be an effective four second stun, but that didnt work, so now they're just doing it manually.
That's also a fair point. I'm more responding to it being 3 seconds vs 4 seconds vs 5 seconds. In reality, take a second off for the current animation to play out.
But 3 seconds is too short unless you are downed like on a pallet or loop
5 seconds is too long because you can offensively use it in corners of the map and still get somewhere safe
4 seconds is probably just right, where, if you are getting tunneled, its going to help you, but if you are using it offensively, to body block a doorway or something, you are gonna have a harder time getting somewhere safe.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
Me running up to the 2 slugs with MFT + WGLF:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/AKJ5W81LH3EF/transitions-kinemaster.gif
Good luck finding them with knockout.
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@SignedUp4PTBFeedback said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3715042#Comment_3715042
This is only valid for chase #1, a case where tunneling is going on, or a chase that lasted for quite too long.
Otherwise, the survivors' activities are as follows:
1 on the hook
1 going for the rescue
1 in chase
1 remaining to do gens.
This is generally how killers win games. And this is why tunneling is so effective when done quickly enough, 3v1 there's no one that can do gens, there always has to be someone who rescues a hooked survivor and someone to keep the killer's attention while the rescue is happening.And chase #1 is precisely the problem.
Basically, the way a standard game works is as follows:
- Start the game, all the survivors spread out and hop on gens
- Killer starts a chase with 1 survivor 3 are sitting on gens
Now, does the killer get a down before 2-3 gens are done? If not, the survivors are probably going to win. If so, the killer is probably going to win.
This is a problem and should not be how the game works. The reality is, at high levels, when survivors have a whole map available to them, that first chase can take ages, especially when you factor in god pallets. Based on times, do you realize that all it takes is for someone to predrop (yes predrop) 2 god pallets and then run to a corner of the map and stand there? That is enough time for those 3 gens to get done.
The problem is in "solo queue" survivors are allergic to gens for some reason.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3715008#Comment_3715008
Watch a few videos and comments scott jund makes, now do the same for tru3ta1ent. If there was a spectrum, you'd probably see this:
survivor sided middle killer sided |———————————————————————||———————————————————————| On that spectrum, i'd put several content creators around this: |———————————————————————||———————————————————————| ayrun/hens scott coconut otz tru3ta1entformatting sucks, but you get the idea.
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@JeanGreyarea said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3714988#Comment_3714988
how is Scott jund biased toward survivor players?
Watch a few videos and comments scott jund makes, now do the same for tru3ta1ent. If there was a spectrum, you'd probably see this:
survivor sided middle killer sided |———————————————————————||———————————————————————| On that spectrum, i'd put several content creators around this: |———————————————————————||———————————————————————| ayrun/hens scott coconut otz tru3ta1entEDIT: i should also note this isn't to throw shade at any of these creators, i watch most of them. And this is obviously just an opinion of mine and could be up for debate, but i don't think its really relevant to this thread. I'm simply stating that there is a spectrum of bias and this is where, based on the content i have seen, that each of these content creators falls in, in my opinion.
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@jotaro said:
The perk literally only lasts 60 seconds, and will disable if the survivor does anything useful for the team ( unhook, heal, repair gens etc) and does not work when exit gates are powered. It is insanely easy to counter this perk as killer, literally just dont tunnel.
If for some reason you have to down the same survivor again, leave them on the ground and come back later, the timer goes really fast. DS should be effective and punish killers who focus and tunnel one survivor.
Can someone please explain how on earth is ds ”too effective” with 5 second stun? I really dont get it
It leads to being used offensively.
Now it means that, if you are being tunneled, you are fine, because, in theory, you should be going down near some structure or pallet or something, you DS, and you have time to get there.
But at 5 seconds, you could just body block in a corner of the map dead zone and have enough time to run to the opposite end of the map.
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@SignedUp4PTBFeedback said:
Pack it up folks, a DBD streamer agrees with them, we lost the argument.
You are being intentionally obtuse.
I pointed out a problem, and the response EVERY TIME, as you can see in this thread is "but average players" etc.
And i'm pointing out that a streamer here, who is clearly biased towards survivor players as you can see if you are even somewhat familiar with them, even says that you MUST take slowdown perks if you aren't playing a top tier killer and when you play the other 30+ killers, you MUST take slowdown perks.
If i posted tru3ta1ent you'd get a different bias.
I'm just pointing out that someone who often sees things from the survivor point of view is also able to see this which shows that there is probably a problem here.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3714959#Comment_3714959
No, you balance for everyone.
I personally do believe some things should be done to address problems at the top, but their absence from this patch doesn't mean this patch is inherently going to break the game for those players. Those at the top will still have good viable options to win their games if they're of equal skill level to their opponent, just like everyone else.
Also, to address the video you've posted twice now: My experience with watching DBD content creators - and to be fair I don't watch that many - is that they don't do a very good job of acknowledging their inherent bias when it comes to their own experiences. That might be true for Scott because he plays the game for a living very regularly, but it's definitely not true for the vast majority of the playerbase, no matter how any individual player might feel.
I post scott because he IS biased, towards survivors. If i posted tru3ta1ent you'd see the opposite end of the bias.
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@vBlossom_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3714961#Comment_3714961
Ah yeah, "not a top tier killer".
Forgot how they look after yet another Blight/Wesker/Nurse with 4 slowdowns
Yeah, and again, if you keep nerfing these things, all you will see is MORE of the thing you are complaining about as more and more things become less viable.
2 things can be true at the same time.
3 killers in the game are a little to powerful when you stack multiple slowdowns.
32 killers are too weak unless you bring 2 slowdown perks.
Which one seems like the bigger problem to tackle? Guess we should nerf slowdowns more without addressing the 32 killers? What do you think will happen? You'll see more of the 3 killers you are complaining about.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3714936#Comment_3714936
Haven't we had this conversation before?
You don't balance for any specific group, you balance for everyone. If you need to weight your decisions towards any particular group - if, not when - then you weight towards the majority. This is the only effective and viable way to balance online live-service games, there are no other options that will work.
You also, and this is the fallacy you most frequently fall into, do not exclusively balance based around stats. The best example of why that's a bad idea is Nurse, who has a very low killrate due to her high skill floor and the fact that she's free so a lot of players actually give her a shot, thus increasing the sample size by a lot of players who inevitably aren't going to do very well. Does that change that Nurse is the strongest killer in the game and needed those few nerfs she got? No, but you'd miss that if you balance around stats. This is something you understand, because you brought it up.
In this case, you balance for everyone because the majority don't need these perks at all and they can be absurdly oppressive towards the top skill range. The only gaps here are weak killers (as in, characters, not players) being played at average skill ranges, but as long as they have some kind of slowdown - which they will - that's not a huge problem, just something to keep in mind.
Right, so you balance for everyone EXCEPT the players who are at the top? Its ok if survivors are massively OP at the highest level so tournaments have to restrict them so heavily?
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@Reinami said:
I'm calling it now.
The new meta will be slugging.
Deadlock isn't really that good of a perk, grim embrace was okish, the only ones worth anything were pop and pain res.
I really think people underestimate how long it takes killers to do anything. Do you know how long it takes to hook a survivor?
- 2.7 wipe animation
- 3 second pickup animation
- ~10 seconds to walk to a scourge hook (a little more than half the bar, sometimes more sometimes less, but scourge hooks are harder to get to sometimes)
- 1.5 second hook animation
Now, even if you KNOW exactly where the gen is that popped, and assume its only half a map away from you. Lets say its the gen on the very middle of the map. How long does it take to walk to that gen? About 11 seconds.
So you have
2.7 + 3 + 10 + 1.5 + 11 = 28.2 seconds.
What is pain res NOW? 22 seconds off a gen.
Pain res LITERALLY does not pay for itself most of the time. Now you want to nerf it even more?
Any on top of that you want to nerf pop back to uselessness? When pop was at 20% nobody used it for a reason, 20% of CURRENT is nothing.
The only reason that "pain res is in nearly 40% of games" is because it is the "best" gen defense perk. But the game is LITERALLY BALANCED AROUDN THE IDEA THAT KILLERS MUST BRING GEN DEFENSE" Even top tier players and streamers basically admit this. Scott, otz, etc. all say that the game is balanced around killers bringing gen defense. Try not bringing gen defense some time in any high mmr game and watch you get destroyed.
I WANT to bring other perks, i DO NOT WANT to have to bring gen defense every game. PLEASE do the following:
- Nerf all of these perks harder. YES HARDER, cut them down even more. And nerf the other ones while you are at it
- BUFF the basekit gen kick to 10%
- BUFF the basekit gen regression to 200%
Make it like you have just done with leatherface. NERF THE ADDONS (in this case the perks) AND BUFF THE BASEKIT.
UPDATE.
Scott agrees again, the game is BALANCED around the killer bringing slowdown:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_E5aYn7gYA&t=678s -
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3714905#Comment_3714905
It's entirely possible you, specifically, are one of the exceptions that I refer to in the post. It's entirely possible this applies to you because you're one of the small number of people it's relevant for.
There is no projection in responding to takes about how the game should be balanced, though. If you are one of those exceptions, the fact that your experience is not universal and does not apply to the vast majority of the playerbase is extremely relevant to any conversations about how the game should be balanced as a result.
Even for those I'm referring to (potentially including you) it's not as though there aren't options. Pain Res will still be more than viable, Deadlock will be more than viable, Grim Embrace will be more than viable, and that's just the stuff in this update. This idea that you need to run the absolute best possible stuff and that best possible stuff can't ever be nerfed doesn't apply to anyone, not even the exceptions to the overall rule.
I'm not telling you anything about the games you get. I'm responding to your argument.
You never balance games around "the average" player.
And if you do, please tell me when they are going to nerf skull merchant, who is obviously, per the statistics, the most powerful killer to EVER EXIST in DBD HISTORY. And stop wasting their time on killers who are UNDERPOWERED (per the data) like blight. Why does blight keep getting nerfed despite him being so weak?
Oh also, when are we going to buff nurse? Obviously if we balance around average players, we need to buff the killer who has been near the bottom of the list in kill rate since probably her inception.
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@ad19970 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3714886#Comment_3714886
What about tunneling and camping? Those would need to be nerfed as well, because killers will surely resort to those strategies. Then the killer can learn how to play fair.
Only you will quickly realise that most killers in this game need some good slowdown options to be able to play fair and square, so if killers don't receive any compensation buffs in the cases of nerfs to slugging, camping and tunneling, I think the more likely outcome will be very long survivor queue times.
It has been proven time and time again. That yes, tunnelers gonna tunnel and campers gonna camp. That will always happen. But every time they nerf gen defense, you see MORE tunneling and MORE camping.
Notice how people have been complaining constantly since the nerfs to eruption, and ruin, and pain res (to be what it is now) and all the other changes about tunneling more and more?
When you nerf the only viable way to slow the game down, that is already HELLA fast even with that slowdown, then killers will have to resort to OTHER ways to slow the game down. And those ways are WAY LESS FUN for survivors then the perks are. I guarantee it.
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@jesterkind said:
I think that's probable, but you're falling into the trap of assuming that they'd be right to do it.
You currently don't need any slowdown at all unless you're someone who plays the game for a living and routinely faces against the top players in the world (a bias that those who this does apply to aren't great at recognising in themselves, but I suppose that's fair). It's nice to have, sure, but for the vast majority of the playerbase it just isn't necessary, you get more than enough slowdown just from playing the macro game and spreading your pressure properly.
Plus, y'know, there's the other slowdown perks that aren't being touched in this update and the ones in this update that are still going to be perfectly fine, so. Not like killer players are lacking options, perk viability is at the best it's been in a long time rn.
I have already made it clear in other threads. I am tired of this argument that "it isn't necessary unless this game is your job". Or "SWF squads with clock callouts are rare" or "most survivors are bad you win most of your games"
YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT KINDS OF GAMES I GET AND I'M TIRED OF YOU TELLING ME THAT.
I get these games CONSTANLTY. If i'm not running 2-3 gen defense perks, forget it, i'll lose 3 gens in the first chase, the first chased survivor will predrop 1 or 2 god pallets, and then the game is basically over at that point.
Stop projecting the games that YOU get onto other people.
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@Crowman said:
While Pop and Pain Res may have deserved the nerfs they got, they will still continue to be the highly used perks because there's not much competition since other gen regression perks got hit hard with the 3-gen update. I'm worried that the devs will never address the reason why other gen regression perks fail to see use and will just conitnue to nerf pop and pain res.
What they need to do is nerf all the gen defense perks and buff the basekit like they do with killer addons, like they literally are going to do with leatherface. Stop balancing the game around gen defense perks being required, nerf them all, buff the basekit.
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3714860#Comment_3714860
That was more because maps are increasingly spawning gens like this and many killers didn't want to leave the triangle
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/9WO7UHO55NYF/18f5e0c65f891-screenshoturl.jpg
That's why the gen kick limit was introduced. You will outrepair any killer that tries to do that.
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@JeanGreyarea said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3714820#Comment_3714820
the perk is still good
Its only good by comparison now.
Pop is useless again, Grim embrace is only slightly nerfed, but its still only a "Decent", pain res nerfed again to 80% total regression, doesn't even add a whole gen of time, despite actively requiring you to NOT tunnel.
All this is going to lead to is either more tunneling and camping, or people just slugging now.
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@vBlossom_ said:
Ok, then next time BHVR will nerf slugging, untill killers would learn to play fair, kthxbye
Is fair when a killer hooks a survivor then immediately runs to the opposite end of the map, looks at the wall, and waits for them to get unhooked and healed before they target someone else?