Reinami
Reinami
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- Reinami
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3714551#Comment_3714551
That works both ways though, which is why Doctor tanked from being one of the highest killrates to one of the lowest. These statistics also include bot-killers torpedoing their MMR and farming BP.
Not to mention that these statistics also separate out high MMR, where these drops and disconnects are less likely to occur.
Also also, @TheLastTreedad necro'd this thread.
Sure, i'm not discounting that. That's why i'm saying the data is basically useless.
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@TormentedPunisher said:
Deadlock in it's current state it requires you to be losing the game and only gets a maximum of 4 uses, if you're losing badly. Not only that, it only blocks 1 Gen per use.
If anything, you're punishing players that don't stack PainRes+Pop. It's probably one of the healthiest slowdowns in the game.
Because apparently all gen defense needs to be completely nerfed.
There's a reason that everyone is using pain res and pop. Because they are the only good gen defense left, and the game is balanced around killers bringing gen defense.
I just hope they buff the basekit of all killers to compensate. I would love to see these perks nerfed even more, and base kit gen kick be brought to 10%, and basekit regression made 200%.
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@appleas said:
The fact that this combination can work at the start, middle and end game without much repercussions is amazing.
Buckle up was probably designed to counter situations where Survivor A was slugged, Survivor B being injured picks up A and either one gets downed from the Killer nearby.
If the FTP + BU interaction was removed, the usage rate of both perks would see an immediate drop.I actually think the interaction itself is technically fine. The problem is that buckle up should not give endurance to both. If it only gave endurance to one of them, then it stays as a way to pick someone up and they are protected. But now you are discouraged from using it with FTP because you don't also get endurance.
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@Nun_So_Vile said:
Please stop picking up the survs who use Plot Twist. We just want to heal by ourselves…😭
Thank you.
@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
You may hit shift right before they heal you to full. Then get up yourself. It will cancel the heal! And then you can say "Get your grubby paws off me!" once you get up in their face :)
Why though? If they pick you up, now you can use it again later, but if you pick yourself up, you get healed i guess, but you cant use it again.
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I hope they add freddy from 5 nights at freddy's. Because when they do, i'll finally be able to just quit this game and move on.
In all seriousness. I'm hoping for some baskit changes that encourage hooks and chases over kills, and a rebalancing of basekit gen regression so that you can play the game without gen defense perks and still feel like you are doing something.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3714493#Comment_3714493
on gideon and elementary school, Onryo condemn is not counterable. just accept your going get condemned in 3-4 minutes. you play the game as if you are playing vs old ebony mori's. OP right that Onryo becomes stronger tombstone myer's on said map.
Just turn off a tv.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/407321/survivors-need-to-improve-and-get-better
Too many survivors complain that the game is unfair but they don't work to improve their game
The idea that these complaints come from the same people that barely know the game is flat wrong. As a quick reminder, the lowest escape rate is actually at the highest MMR. The game is the most killer-sided at the higher MMR ranges. These complaints aren't coming from bad survivors that sit in a corner and do nothing all game.
Main issue I see with survivors is they are not proactive with gens. They consistently go for easy far-off gens and 3-gen the team. Survivors have got to start learning the maps and being proactive about identifying and pressuring 3-gen locations early in the match, or in the event that there is a 3-gen, proactively identifying and helping the team to pressure different gens and force the killer to have to patrol all 3 gens. There are perks available to help out with this so "I don't know where the gens are" is not an excuse. Running around doing gens blindly is not doing you or the team any favors and in most cases you are handing the game over to the killer.
I don't know why you are bringing this up. No one complained about survivors creating their own 3-gens, except for killers. The 3-gen complaints had nothing to do with survivors 3-genning themselves, but with certain killers (Specifically Knight and Skull Merchant) permanently locking down the three gens closest to one another from the start in order to force a 3-gen. The wrong killer design, as proven by several showcases, can blast this issue into the stratosphere to the point where the most favoured tactic for Skull Merchant was getting the match to time out.
This is not okay. This is extremely obviously not okay. But it also has nothing to do with what you are talking about.
This brings up the second issue: Many survivors don't pressure 3-gen locations because they want to hide and are afraid to loop a killer. Survivors have to learn that each player in the team has to take their turn wasting the killer's time, and in addition survivors need to be taking hook states during the game, everyone needs to do this. No one is expecting you to take the killer for a 5-gen chase or 360-tech like a looping god but be proactive and learn to use tiles to your advantage, there are myriad youtube tutorials on the types of tiles and how to use them effectively as well as aura reading perks and items to help you see the killer while looping and evading. Time wasting perks like head-on, blast mine and others are also at your disposal.
Again, this is not being complained about, except by killers. This is argumentation killers bring up to try and get Distortion nerfed, not survivors.
Third, Too many survivors complain about being tunneled out too often, but aside from learning to use tiles better and improving your map sense and knowledge, are you also running any anti-tunnel perks? do you also take protection hits for your teammates or do you use perks or items to deny the killer hooks when they are being tunneled or do you hide in a corner?
Band-aid perks are never the solution to overarching problems with gameplay design, and they take away from depth of gameplay by crippling non-meta builds. Survivors shouldn't have to equip band-aid perks and sacrifice their loadout variety in order to resolve an issue that should naturally not exist. Additionally, while taking protection hits for your teammates may improve the tunnelled player's experience somewhat, it's also much more likely to give the killer the win by rewarding them with free pressure and slowdown.
Yes, it's true that hook denial is a way to slow down a tunnel, but that firstly requires a ton of coordination which makes for a deeply unfair effort balance between the survivors and killer (Which may be why high MMR 4-man squads have the highest escape rate, though still not hitting 50%), but secondly, this also encourages what is honestly the worst gameplay experience for killer. Often referred to as 'bully squads'.
Survivor complaints, by and large, have also not been about balance as much as they have been about quality of gameplay. You can improve as much as you want, getting tunnelled still means that you'll be kicked out of the match with roughly 8K points and a depip because you only got one fragment of survivor gameplay. And the rest of your teammates got to experience the joy of M1 and nothing else. Camping is much the same. Bleedout slugging is much the same.
The biggest thing survivors are asking for, is for the game to focus more on breadth of gameplay instead of constantly being flattened to a 1v1 with three spectators.
If survivors were truly concerned with the game's balance, we'd have seen far, far more clamouring for survivor buffs/killer nerfs with the release of the latest stats that just flatly prove that the game is killer-sided at the moment. But by and large, the survivors didn't care about the balance.
They just want the gameplay to be addressed.
So I don't see what the point of this thread is, other than to gaslight people into thinking that any survivor complaint must come from lead-ELO, sub-10 hour Blendettes.
The escape rate is a mostly meaningless statistics for one simple reason. They showed that skull merchant has nearly an 80% kill rate.
Now, you can either believe that SM is by far the most overpowered killer that has ever existed in DBD (and then also try to explain why BHVR hasn't nerfed her yet, and is wasting their time on much WORSE killers like…. blight….). Or you can believe that people hate her so much, they just immediately give up and kill themselves on hook, giving her an extremely high kill rate.
Based on that, the escape statistics are meaningless, because they are including people who give up.
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@DyingWish92 said:
So I loaded in a game as survivor on the game vs a Sadako. Within 10 seconds I find a gen and hop on it. Killer starts teleporting, 1 stack condemned, 2 stacks condemned, 3 stacks condemned, 4 stacks, 5 stacks. All before I could even get 25% of a gen done really????? This was all within like 20-30 seconds. I suppose she's using that add on where you can just spam teleport non stop. So I get off the gen, grab a tape, 6 stacks. Get to the next TV to get rid of the stacks and the killer pops out of that TV as I reach it, fully condemned. I die.
2 minute game, riveting fun gameplay. Reached a few pallets and tried to circle back to the TV to cleanse the condemned but she downed me as I was putting the tape in. That add on is basically Tombstone Piece on that map.
Also theres no addon for teleporting non-stop. That's just part of the base kit.
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@DyingWish92 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3714493#Comment_3714493
What TV? She's teleporting all over the map????
The TV next to you. You gain stacks when she teleports to ANY TV if you are next to an active TV. So if you go grab a tape from the nearby TV you:
- Have a tape to later clear stacks
- Won't gain stacks because the TV is off
- She can't teleport to that TV for a while.
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@DyingWish92 said:
So I loaded in a game as survivor on the game vs a Sadako. Within 10 seconds I find a gen and hop on it. Killer starts teleporting, 1 stack condemned, 2 stacks condemned, 3 stacks condemned, 4 stacks, 5 stacks. All before I could even get 25% of a gen done really????? This was all within like 20-30 seconds. I suppose she's using that add on where you can just spam teleport non stop. So I get off the gen, grab a tape, 6 stacks. Get to the next TV to get rid of the stacks and the killer pops out of that TV as I reach it, fully condemned. I die.
2 minute game, riveting fun gameplay. Reached a few pallets and tried to circle back to the TV to cleanse the condemned but she downed me as I was putting the tape in. That add on is basically Tombstone Piece on that map.
Turn off the tv.
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@CountOfTheFog said:
I use the pipe because it makes me feel more confident.
However, looking at these pictures of him that I took with him in the same exact position, it appears they are the same.
I think it just depends on where he holds the weapon as opposed to the actual length of it.
Does the pipe really give you better range or are they all the same?
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/KCVHFXQ3HOBA/20240508-174636.jpg
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/QJOPO2YI5WKU/20240508-174647.jpg
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/45EJKTE8R5J2/20240508-174702.jpg
Every killer's lunge works exactly the same, the weapon you use doesn't have any impact on it.
The only exception to this is a handful of killers like:
- Myers in tier 3 has longer lunge
- Myers in tier 1 has a shorter lunge
- Nurse blink lunge is shorter
- Killers with Coup de Grace can lunge further
- Some killer addons like legion can make their lunge longer in their power.
But, for context, a killer's hitbox extends out about 2 meters (this is unproven for sure, but it appears to be that way based on my testing). And lunging makes you move forward and increases your movement speed to by 50% for 0.8 seconds. This amounts to 6.9 m/s This means that a full lunge is 5.52 meters + 2 meter hitbox. For slower killers that are 4.4, they actually increase their speed by 56.8%, and nurse increases by 79%, so it rounds out to NEARLY 6.9 m/s.
Now, when you factor in survivors moving, they move at 4.0 m/s, so for that 0.8 seconds, they actually moved away from you by 3.2 meters. So when you factor that in, you need to be 5.52 + 2 - 3.2 = 4.32 meters away from the survivor to actually lunge at them when they are running away from you.
EDIT: Changed the numbers which changed the math a bit, i was following old numbers i had, but now fixed it.
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Its definitely gotten more pronounced. I think it is due to the rubberbanding issue going on right now. Sometimes i'll lunge at someone, and then i rubberband right back to where i was, but then my lunge doesn't happen. Similar thing is happening on survivor side where i'll just randomly see the killer "pop" back a bit. Had a situation where i got hit after vaulting because i rubberbanded back before i vaulted.
Things are a bit weird right now, so i'd say probably wait until those issues are fixed and see if it clears it up a bit more.
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@jamally093 said:
So I'll set the scene.
Hillbilly on eyrie of crows gets two kills but mainly tunneling and constant chainsaw use gens aren't going off constantly in his face it's a gen pops good dead silence for a bit then another gen basic match with no gen rushing. By the end two people are dead me being one of them I spectate because I can and I just wanna see if they escape. Nea gets hit and downed and is hooked then face camped with the Hillbilly constantly chainsaw reving. I need to know is this still a form of camping because you no longer get the progress to self unhook because "By the end of the match the progress bar will no longer appear as the killer will now do anything to get at least one kill."
If all the gens are done, then no, it doesn't work, because at that point there is nothing else for the killer to defend.
If all the gens were not done, then the AFC meter will fill up. Its possible if you are spectating that it doesn't show up or work right, because a ton of stuff doesn't work very well while spectating.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3711965#Comment_3711965
See, you've missed a step here and it's part of what baffles me about this conversation.
So, you lay out that they can bodyblock with unhook Endurance and force the killer to hit them. Solid, I'm with you so far. You say that they can then continue for a second hit, which I think is starting to stretch things a little but they can do that, so alright, I'm with you.
Then you skip straight to the killer eating DS and doubling down to tunnel them, which raises the really extremely pressing question of "why did the killer pick them up". Surely anyone in their right mind is going to realise a survivor that willingly went down like that has DS, right? So you'd just… not pick them up and continue to chase whoever you were actually focusing on, thus occupying two survivors for the price of one chase.
Because even if you completely ignore it, they just wasted at least 30 seconds of your time because the survivor you were TRYING to get, is still running away from you while you are stuck wiping blood off your weapon like an idiot. And on top of that, it gives that survivor time to reach a STRONGER part of the map. Maybe you are currently in a part of the map where a few chases have happened, and there are less pallets, maybe its a TL wall, and, oh look, body block by the guy with DS, now the guy i was chasing is at a killer shack that links to a jungle gym, guess i'm the idiot now?
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@goodfriday said:
All these reply of this is not fair to killers who do not tunnel. I am sorry to say but I cannot remember a time a killer does NOT tunnel/slug/camp because its been such a norm for me that even if there is a chance they dont well I simply have ptsd that it will happen and never accept the fact that it will not happen. Worst is when a killer brings a mori and your a streamer like myself its a strong indication its a sweaty tunnely camp/slug/killer.
Funny thing is those saying it gives me a reason to tunnel/slug more as if that was not always a thing that exist, I swear there is always some useless counter point about these killers who say why they tunnel/camp/slug which is the same as those that complain about distortion or any survivor perk that negates some of their plans.
You all know yall always tunnel/camp/slug for anything and everything, ds or not , distortion or not because any one thing a survivor do like stunning you with pallet/flashlight/flashbang save a teamate/blast mine/or head on you or overall just outplayed you in a way you do not like, your ego is so harmed that tunnel/slug/camp mode is activated. Goodness am so glad identity v community is not like this. Hunters actually do not even complain about body blocking or anything survivors do lol. That game is balanced on both sides anyways so makes sense.
The solution is not to buff a perk that can negatively impact killers who aren't doing it. Especially a perk that is part of a DLC that you must spend money on. I think you would agree that a BETTER solution, is to make it a basekit mechanic that addressed tunneling and balance the entire game around it, rather than slapping a band-aid on it with a perk.
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3710464#Comment_3710464
For perspective correction, it actually seems like it IS your problem. And will likely get the thread closed now. Calm down, it's not that deep. While it is true I don't believe you have those games that often, so what? I think someone who knows a game inside and out like the following:
"If you leave them on the ground, they'll recover with unbreakable in about 20 seconds, meanwhile you are still chasing that other survivor for 12 of those seconds, you down them, 2.7 seconds, you pick them up, 3 seconds, you walk to a hook, 8 seconds, you hook them 1.5 seconds."
I mean why even play at that point? Think on how this looks to anyone else but you for a moment? A moment for me in this scenario is 8.4 seconds or more. Also Idc how rare anything is. OP is OP. But OP doesn't absolutely equate to unhealthy for the game. DS is a hybrid perk, always has been. There's no reason we're going to let you down a team mate when we could save them.
As it were, can't help but feel this is just a reaction from survivors being trained that tunneling will happen, killers know its a terrible experience and continue regardless, and thus you have to deal with this DS battle. I relish in the fact I've never used DS once in my DBD time.
I'll let you get the last reply on this. Just don't get the thread shut down. I'm not telling you that you are wrong, just that I find it highly highly highly unlikely to be even remotely accurate. And that's something that should only be taken with a grain of salt.
So at this point you are just calling me a liar.
I answered OPs question based on actual evidence of what i am experiencing in a significant portion of my games.
At this point, i would kindly ask that you stop calling me a liar, and assume i am correct if you want to continue the discussion with me so we can continue a good faith discussion. Otherwise, we can agree to disagree and move on.
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@ratcoffee said:
You know what, I'm gonna say it.
DS isn't an "anti-tunnel" perk. It's an aggressive killer delaying perk that happens to also have anti-tunnel qualities. And that's a good thing.
Ok then, it is too strong, and the stun should be shorter. Probably around 3 seconds….
It was literally nerfed BECAUSE of these problems, then they buffed it right back to where it was. And big surprise, it is overpowered again. What needs to be done is that anti-tunnel needs to be made some kind of basekit mechanic that the game is balanced around, and then DS reworked into an entirely different perk.
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
With everyones explanations on this forum, every scenario people bring up always has the other side having the exact perk they need to screw up the formula being presented. See @Reinami in this very thread:
"Now, you have 2 choices:
- You pick up the guy you just downed,
- You ignore them and leave them on the ground.
If you leave them on the ground, they'll recover with unbreakable in about 20 seconds, meanwhile you are still chasing that other survivor for 12 of those seconds, you down them, 2.7 seconds, you pick them up, 3 seconds, you walk to a hook, 8 seconds, you hook them 1.5 seconds."
You can see from this small snippet of text, they know everything about the games that they will play. We could say they are wrong, but, lets be honest: We can't prove it, but neither can they. So things will continue to go round and round pointlessly.
I don't think bully squads are 'every other game.' But, doesn't matter, sounds cool on a forum to say.
Bottom line is if someone replies to you with an entire scenario laid out with specific perks and outcomes that are absolutely the worst, its probably not true. At all.
Again, you are not me. I am TIRED of people telling me WHAT MY GAMEPLAY EXPERIENCE IS.
I was responding to OP on why it is a problem by providing a concrete example that i'm seeing in probably 25-50% of my matches at this point. And if you don't believe me, that is your problem. But don't start telling me "its rare so its fine." Just because you aren't experiencing it, doesn't mean others aren't experiencing it.
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@hermitkermit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3710283#Comment_3710283
Thank you for the very in depth response. I know from other posts I've seen you in that you and I probably have some different perspectives on this game, so if my replies or responses feel disrespectful or belittling in any way, please know it is not my intention. I'm not trying to pick a fight or invalidate your opinions, and if need be I will be the first to say respectfully, agree to disagree with no hard feelings because I appreciate being exposed to different points of view.
That being said, your post breakdown does show how this can be very oppressive in the right hands, with the right perks, and the right survivor team. I can definitely see how this has potential to be a very frustrating time waster, and gives alot of value if played correctly. However I can't help but feel as if the example you picked was the worst possible outcome, and sort've writing off any other ways a game could go by saying "a typical game at high level with good teams", implying it will always go that way, using the worst case scenario as the base-line comparison. For example I can say that, "because nurse on midwich with something like starstruck, lethal, knockout and infectious fright exists, you have to balance an entire perk or game etc. around her", when of course we know that while god-tier nurse mains do exist, you likely aren't going to face one every single match, and those that play nurse likely won't have that level of skill, therefore it's unfair to try and use her as an example as to why something should or shouldn't happen. I believe there's plenty of items, perks, killers, add-ons, offerings, and playstyles that can easily seem "op" or unfair under specific circumstances that can vary anywhere from gen placement, maps, the other competitors perks etc.
What I agree with from your post is that if everyone played as efficiently in your message, with a person running that exact build, against a killer that might struggle to catch up compared to other killers, that it indeed does not feel fun to play against. I understand why people are uncomfortable with this sort've thing being possible to do in the game, but my issue stems from the fact that many other things that are uncomfortable and acknowledged as so aren't treated the same. Tunneling, 3 gens, camping, slugging, things like that can also be extremely unfun to play against, and extremely effective, and often do not need special cirumstances or perks to work very well, and can be done by anyone ranging from Trappers to Blights (although one will have a much easier time of doing so of course).
For clarification, I'm not saying these other playstyles shouldn't be allowed, as in the current state of the game, all of them are viable strats that have very high success rates and aren't against any kind of rules. I used to feel very slighted about being tunneled or slugged and was so confused how something so strong and unfun was allowed, but after spending time in the community and playing more I realized that they're simply strats that work, and to just move on to the next game. (This doesn't mean I don't have ideas to change some of these things) But I disagree with how readily accepted and often encouraged those other playstyles are in comparison to this one.
To sum it up as basically as I can, I don't agree that the value you get from the new DS gives more value then the other strategies I've listed above. Equal? I suppose if every single survivor has that build and uses it as efficiently as possible, then yes. But not more. I think compared to something like MFT, where you got alot of value for just getting injured, this is much different than that, because you're not on gens, you're putting yourself at risk to get hooked again, and if the killer slugs to counter two survivors could end up going down when only 1 was going to, and that's still 2 less people on gens, plus the other who is going to have to unhook. It's wasting the killers time, but at the cost of two others time as well (the person using the DS offensively and the other person being chased). I don't feel it's "free", if that makes sense.
Sorry for rambling, hopefully I've explained it clearly. Anyway thank you for your time and our reply!
Its not the worst possible outcome. I'm tired of people telling me that "high level SWF kill squads are super rare" when i see them every other game. This is the kind of thing that happens to me multiple times in a single hour with teams exploiting the power of this perk and others along with discord. Just because YOUR MMR is low enough that it is rare for you to encounter them, does not mean we all have the same experience as you.
I'm also tired of trying to explain, that just because something is rare doesn't mean it is balanced.
Imagine a world where there was a killer only offering. And this offering did the following:
- All survivors are mori-able immediately with no hook requirements
- All survivors are permanently exposed
- All survivors have 50% reduced repair speeds
- All survivors have their aura permanently revealed to the killer.
- The killer has a permanent 150% movement speed increase.
Now lets say that offering has a 0.01% chance to appear in the bloodweb. This means that you would see this 1 out of every 10,000 games.
Would that offering be balanced? Would it be fair? It would certainly be super rare, so you wouldn't see it that often.
You can't just keep balancing for the "average" survivor player without doing something to these high level, high mmr survivors who often play in groups with discord. It cannot be allowed to continue, or you'll slowly kill this game, as has been evidenced by the slowly dwindling numbers that i, and many others, have constantly been saying for years at this point.
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@hermitkermit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3710218#Comment_3710218
I think that's my question. The "it's not the intention". I don't think tunneling or holding 3 gens is the intention of the game either, which is why the devs have implemented some base kit things to try and deterr it. But both are still considered a valid playstyle, and are typically defended pretty strongly. I understand why they are, as it can be the easiest and most fastest way to win, but it feels like a double standard a little, and I'm trying to understand why it's not. Thanks for the reply, I see you in the forums alot. You always offer intersting perspectives :)
Because when used offensively it is too strong. When used to counter tunneling it is fine because it has a counter.
The people who use antitunnel perks "offensively" and use DS will do a few things.
Imagine you have a perk build of:
- DS
- OTR
- Dead hard
- Unbreakable
You hook them, then they get unhooked.
Now for the next 80 seconds, if you completely ignore them (in theory, the counter to anti-tunnel perks) you can't. The counter to OTR and DS, is to just not tunnel them, if you don't tunnel them, no problem. But, if they use the perks "offensively" then they have no effective counter.
Let's look at these as if there are no pallets or windows, and everyone just runs in a straight line.
What do you do when that unhooked survivor now forcably body blocks for someone else you are chasing. Lets say they get unhooked, you start chasing some other survivor, maybe you even hit them, then the guy who was unhooked just flies in (probably fully healed) and body blocks. Then you hit them, because obviously you do. Now you spend 2.7 seconds doing nothing and the original survivor gets 12 seconds of distance on you, and you keep going after them. Then, as you are about to hit them, the other person comes in and body blocks again, but they have OTR. Now that other survivor gains another 12 seconds of distance. Then they come in a THIRD time, and body block them and you down them.
Now, you have 2 choices:
- You pick up the guy you just downed,
- You ignore them and leave them on the ground.
If you leave them on the ground, they'll recover with unbreakable in about 20 seconds, meanwhile you are still chasing that other survivor for 12 of those seconds, you down them, 2.7 seconds, you pick them up, 3 seconds, you walk to a hook, 8 seconds, you hook them 1.5 seconds.
This means, without body blocking at all there would have been:
- 15.2 * 3 survivors = 45.6 seconds of generator progress
With this body blocking, now you have:
- 51.2 * 2 survivors = 102.4 seconds of generator progress.
And that is what you get for INTENTIONALLY GOING OUT OF YOUR WAY to NOT tunnel.
So what about the second option? Where you say, forget it, lets just tunnel them then if they want it so bad? Well, They land DS, stun you for 4 seconds (its 5, but the animation takes 1 second) gaining 21 seconds of distance. But now they also have dead hard, so you have to hit them again gaining another 18 seconds of distance. Then you can down them. This means you have
- (63 * 2 survivors) + 39 seconds * 1 survivor = 165 seconds of generator progress.
So, in typical game of DBD at high level, where GOOD teams of survivors will finish about 2-3 gens right around the time you land your first down (lets assume 2) That means they have 270 seconds worth of gen progression to do to win the game.
Without these perks being used offensively, they get 45.6 seconds of progress done, and the killer has another hook, and chances to have gen regression perks like Pop/pain res/ grim embrace to continue slowing the game down.
WITH these perks, even if you take the optimal solution of 100% completely ignoring them? Now survivors only have 170 seconds of progress left. So little that they could literally leave that guy on the hook and just power through gens to finish them up really quick, but certainly very quickly end the game. And if you do give in to the tunnel, they did 165 seconds of progress. which gives the survivors only 100 seconds left. Meaning that the game is probably going to be over in the next 30-45 seconds.
The point is. That when used defensively, these perks have an obvious counter, you just don't tunnel them. And you "keep an eye" on them, because if you want to tunnel, you can see when they touch a gen or do something, and know that they can safely be "tunneled". Or, you confidently know that they aren't working on gens, if they are worried you are going to tunnel them, but if used OFFENSIVELY these perks effectively have no counter, because you are pretty much screwed either way. Just a little less so if you decide to leave the person on the ground.
And the worst part of it? All 4 survivors can do this, this is only assuming A SINGLE survivor has these perks. Now imagine all 4 do, and you realize that you really don't stand a chance.
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@Valuetown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3708735#Comment_3708735
People want this interaction removed so they can more easily tunnel with their blood puke on plague. That is literally the only reason as to why people would see this change, figure it was a bug fix, and then complain that it's no longer in the game, all while hiding behind "well the devs said perks shouldn't disable the killer's abilities."
The easiest and most obvious answer to "how did the devs not notice" is the devs do not play their game to the extent that they should. Case and point: the scrapped twins changes. Case and point: Blight's "nerfs" (buffs). Case and point: the new DS animation. Case and point: the eruption meta. The devs are ostensibly too busy making the game that they can't play test it themselves, and whatever QA team they do have does a very superficial check when new patches release. The fog whisperers are supposed to be the dev's gauge on the health of the game for balance, fun, and bugs, but the devs seldom listen to them. Otz can make a 7 hour long video on his proposed changes, but it's all for naught because the suggestions fall on deaf ears.
At this point, blight needs 3 dashes base kit, and nurse either needs 1 blink or a complete rework. Yes, it is unfortunate that they remain at the top, but plague is very, VERY close behind them in terms of killer snowball.
How would you determine "exactly where you need to be" is, when you've just hooked somebody, 5 gens are left, and you don't have bbq. You start patrolling gens when you have no current targets. I really hope your answer is "well I'd just proxy camp usually."
That's not entirely true. The problem isn't necessarily DS, its that it also is affected by head on, and blast mine of all things.
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@Livion said:
Nurse is the undisputed strongest killer.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/SC4PRCN76G66/my-image-281-29.png
I don't see many of them but when I do I either face a bad nurse or I face god himself.
And it got me thinking "are there any plans to nerf her or do we just assume she is the best?", that's basically it I jus wanted to know if there where any plans to nerf or rework her
Why would they nerf the killer with the lowest kill rate in the game?
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@HexHuntressThighs said:
The Devs already confirmed it’s a bug.
source?
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@ratcoffee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3706752#Comment_3706752
I've said this before to you and I'll say it again, you don't need to choose one or the other, balance decisions can be made with both groups in mind
You can and you should, but the devs don't, they balance for the average player and most people believe that is correct. I just create the choice in order to prove the point why its bad to balance only for the average player.
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@Valuetown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3707508#Comment_3707508
If the ping is good enough, the player does not need to predict anything to compensate for it. 25 ms is ONE TENTH the average human reaction time for visual stimulus. Open the stopwatch on your phone and press start then stop as fast as you can, and that is most often going to be slower than 25 ms. If the connection is crisp enough, the player's location on one screen is going to be within pixels of where they actually on another player's screen.
In a perfect world, latency wouldn't be a problem, and yes I understand this isn't a perfect world, but tightening down the ping requirements is one way to help mitigate this issue, or like you suggested, let me see every player's ping (including the killer's) to decide if the game is going to be fair. Also, behaviour probably makes enough to invest in at least a couple servers in regions that are deserving of them.
The other component to this is hit validation. That has less to do with latency and more to do with the software behind it. How many survivor data packets with contrary data to the killer's need to be sent for a killer hit to register a miss due to awful ping? If a killer has 150 ms and a surivor has 25 ms, the survivor has sent 5 more packets to the server over a 150 ms period with valid game data. How is it that the killer sending two game packets during that period somehow has the advantage? I know there is a ton of behind the scenes data that gets looked at, such as distance discrepancy, survivor position client side vs position server side, but the hit validation was introduced to help ameliorate high latency players, primarily killers. More often than not, it rewards them.
Again, look up Halo 1 PC (the original one by gearbox) It was so bad that ON LAN yes LAN, you were hitting INVISIBLE hitboxes not the actual character model. It is not as clear cut as you make it out to be.
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@Valuetown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3707472#Comment_3707472
My comment is working under the assumption that everyone's ping is 25 ms to the server and 25 ms to them for the sake of discussion.
Everyone is sending their local game state data to the server the same time they're receiving the previous game state from 25 ms ago. There's a ton of under the hood stuff like prediction placements but that's beyond the scope of this discussion. Essentially, if the survivor has 25 ms to send the data to the server and the killer has 25 ms to send the data to the server, why have the devs chosen that the killer's data gets favored? Both the survivor and killer's states are inaccurate representations of the server game state, but they're going to favor killer just because? I know the discussion at that point becomes well why should one side have an advantage over the other, and in reality none should. Just because someone chose to play killer doesn't mean they should get special treatment when it comes to something as critical to a player's enjoyment as latency.
This is the same reason why players with over 150 ping (arbitrary number which in my opinion is already too high for player enjoyment) should not be allowed to connect to a match. High ping comes at the cost of the enjoyment of the rest of the players in the lobby, especially if that player is the killer. I understand the difficulty of connecting to a server from a region that doesn't have one locally, but there needs to be a better solution than what we currently have.
So, you can't just "ban" people due to their ping, otherwise a massively large playerbase just wouldn't get to play the game, and the devs would need infrastructure all over the planet in order to accommodate everyone. Probably a better solution there is to just let players see ping and let them decide for themselves, that might be fine.
But regardless, to answer your question of "why does it favor killer" is because you always favor the person "doing the attack" look at any competitive FPS game, if you play counterstrike long enough, you will run into situations where you peak out of a corner, get back into cover, and then die AFTER you get back into cover.
Because if you don't favor the attacker, then the attacker needs to predict not only where the player is going to go, but also where the server thinks they are based on yours and their ping. It creates a really terrible scenario where the game is completely unfun to play because you are having to "lead" your shots, not based on any kind of predicted movement, or even projectile travel time, but some constantly changing variable that is yours and the other player's ping.
The best example i can give of this, is The original Halo 1 PC made by gearbox. The multiplayer for that game was complete garbage, because they did not favor the shooter when they accounted for hits, because of that, when hitting a moving target, you actually had to hit some invisible hitbox that you didn't actually know where the hitbox at any given moment because multiple players have multiple different pings, and ping is constantly changing. And that hitbox was often not attached to the player's model. Keep in mind that in that game most guns did not have a travel time and were hitscan. So even the sniper rifle had to "lead" their shots and hit the invisible hitbox instead of the actual model of the player they saw.
Now how does that translate into DBD? Well, by literal design, the survivors are never "attacking" the killer. So it appears as though this hit validation is "favoring the killer" because, yeah, it kind of is. But the alternative, is instead that killers have to not actually hit the survivor, but some invisible hitbox that is actually going to be in front of the survivor when they are running. Which is way way worse to play, than it is to be on the receiving end of a hit that didn't quite look right.
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@Royval said:
Ive been a killer main in dbd for years. Since 2018 to be exactly but when I play survivor why hasn’t these been fixed since 2019? These hits are absolutely ridiculous on windows in a clip I will show. Nothing makes me wanna just get off more than getting fake hit on a window it’s annoying.
This looks like a good hit. You have to keep in mind that ping is a thing. Even when you have what would be considered "good" ping at around 50, that is the round trip time it takes for data from you to go to the server.
So, if you are at a spot, and walk forward, it takes 25 milliseconds for the server to register that. Then the server, needs to do whatever it does, then send it to the killer, which takes another 25 milliseconds (assuming the killer has the same ping). This means that the killer actually sees you where you WERE 50 milliseconds ago on their screen. So on their screen, that was probably a solid hit.
Basically, the way this works out is, on the killer side, survivors are further away than they appear. On the survivor side, killers are closer than they appear.
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3706927#Comment_3706927
I answered average as you only gave two options. My answer of not balancing for comp, but for fun, would be healthier. I appreciate the long post and explanations. Im sure itll help someone out.
Ok, you balance for what is fun. How do you do that? Do you do it for what is fun for the majority of players? Again, if you do that, then you are balancing in favor of survivors because naturally there are more of them.
So you must actually balance the game in a "fun" way that is "fun" for both sides.
Do you think the current state of things is "fun" for either side?
Killers tunnel survivors
survivors rush gens
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@Marioneo said:
https://twitter.com/v1rtualblight/status/1782873616188629230
The ongoing debate if using Equalizers is cheating. Equalizers is a 3rd party software that is able to increase or completely eliminate certain sounds in a videogames for dbd its footsteps, breathing, items and killer powers.
Hens says its not cheating while Ayrun says it is cheating
If you have to use a 3rd party program that makes some kind of change that gives you a competitive advantage, it is cheating, pure and simple.
If filters weren't giving you a competitive advantage, then why does every comp player use it? If EQs didn't give a competitive advantage, then why does every comp player use it?
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3706752#Comment_3706752
Well I think this game trying to be 'balanced' is whats hurting it the most. It was never meant to be balanced and trying to force it is making it absolutely crap for, I'd take a healthy guess of at least 50% of their play base. BHVR seems to be okay with this since their numbers pop right back up for a chapter release. So as long as we keep playing and paying, this balance routine will simply continue as there is no incentive, business wise, to change anything.
If i need to answer though, average player. Anyone at the top will have the knowledge and know how to adapt to anything the game changes and throws at them, WAY moreso than the 'average player.' From a business standpoint, also the average player. Most standpoints are 'average player makes more sense.' But there are a few who would disagree simply because it affects them. That isn't a good reason for anything tbh.
Well the game must be balanced at least somewhat otherwise people wouldn't play it. Imagine if every single game the killer won 100% of the time because it was balanced so heavily in favor of the killer, so you think it would be fun playing survivor? Probably not.
Now that you have answered the question, that we balance around "average" player. I will say i disagree, and its for one fundamental reason.
If we balance around the average player, then BY DEFINITION of balancing around the average player, there is something that, per the data, MUST be done. And that is to absolutely completely MASSIVELY buff The Nurse. Yes, the nurse. When looking at statistics from "the average player" nurse is always BY FAR the WORST killer in the game. As in, the absolute bottom of the list. This was only recently "slightly" not true, in that she was the second worst, per the data. But still FAR below, the 60% kill rate the devs balance for. In fact, her kill rate is usually in around 48-49%.
So, if we balance around the "average" player. What BUFFS do you propose they do to nurse to bring her "up to par" with some of the MUCH STRONGER killers such as, "THE PIG"?
Obviously i being somewhat tongue in cheek here, but you see my point. If you balance around the average player, we need to be nerfing killers like pig, sadako, and yes freddy some more. While we MASSIVELY buff killers like nurse and huntress. Also per the "average player" statistics, Skull merchant is the deadliest most powerful broken killer in DBD HISTORY.
Now, you can say "well nurse is the exception" but that isn't fair to the idea. If you think that "nurse is the exception" because she is "so hard to play" then you actually believe the game should be balanced around HIGH MMR players, and not average players. Unless of course your belief is that the game should actually be balanced around AVERAGE survivor players, but HIGH MMR killer players. Someone with those beliefs though, would clearly be severely biased towards survivors.
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3706365#Comment_3706365
Not enough to matter in this conversation. Those players are gonna stomp regardless. There is literally nothing you can do if you get them except try, learn, and grow. Anything else is more wishful thinking imo.
Still, you make a point and its true. I just dont think its enough to move the needle.
They aren't going to stop regardless, they are going to bully the killer until they ultimately quit the game.
Let me ask you a question
Should DBD be balanced around average level players, or high level players?
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3669216#Comment_3669216
Nah. At high levels, sure. But no one here is playing a tournament. Its casual dbd man. What are average survivors in a solo'q lobby going to do against this? Still their fault? New players, still their fault? If you see the lobby is definitely a 4 man, do you still play like normal? Genuine question.
This rhetoric is just a low of human empathy. There will be people like this, but its a veery very small sect of players whom BHVR can't seem to get a grip on.
Yeah, but those "tournament players"? they queue up in regular games too. And they shouldn't be buffed anymore than they already are.
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@o7o said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3705903#Comment_3705903
You can see red stains through certain walls normally without filters? That's the game, not reshade.
There's no way in hell you enjoy how dark this game is.I didn't say i enjoyed it, i said that your 3rd party program gives you a competitive advantage. Literally you just said "look how dark the game is" darkness is partially part of the balance of the game, so by making the game brighter, you are literally giving yourself a competitive advantage over someone who does not use it.
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@o7o said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3705869#Comment_3705869
Reshade does not give you a competitive advantage lol.
You can literally tune it to being able to see the red stain through walls.
If it didn't give an advantage why does every comp player run it?
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@ratcoffee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3705869#Comment_3705869
I imagine it's because mods require changing the game files whereas filters are effectively monitor/display settings.
Doesn't matter. They both give a competitive advantage. Filters can set it up so you can literally see things through walls. Why is that fair or allowed?
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@Mandy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3705803#Comment_3705803
I am not talking about filters, I'm talking about modding - these are two seperate things
and no we do not consider filters as cheating.
So its ok to use one thing that gives a competitive advantage over another because why? And both are using 3rd party programs and game modifications?
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3705816#Comment_3705816
Which will be few and far between, Im sure. This is a worst case scenario, so its natural to think it up. But rationally… I dont think it'll happen often. Man I'd hope not… wouldn't feel very 'RNG'ish if so.
Just because something is rare, doesn't mean its ok.
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@AnxietyDrone said:
I've been having issues with my dbd, working closely with tech support on it. During testing with them my DC penalty is now at 6 hours. I've sent them everything on it, my files on my computer, screenshots of errors, I've verified my files, and nothing has worked. They can't get rid of the penalty for me because it's "completely automated" like #########? We're testing this ######### together and you have no way to waive a penalty I shouldn't be accruing in the first place because YOUR game is the system not working??? It's absolutely ridiculous. It's still kicking me out and they've refused to help me saying they'll pass my info on. To who? I have no idea. I do know that I went two days with no error kicking me out then boom today I get booted and 6 hour DC penalty is back. Fix your game. It's not my system, not my internet, not my problem. You should've fixed it for me and waived the ban.
No, because then every single game would result in killers playing against all bots. Because the first person to get downed would just immediately DC in the vast vast majority of games, and then the rest of the players wouldn't want to stick around because they don't want to be stuck with a bot.
On the flip side, if the first couple of gens get done too quick (I.E. 3 gens for the 1st hook, which is quite common) killer immediately DCs.
Basically, instead of actually playing the game, you would be attempting to play the game as nicely as possible to prevent the other side from DCing. But you don't know how "nice" they want it. Creating a stupid metagame that is based around making sure everyone doesn't DC.
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@JeanGreyarea said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/6QR7XPYNF54L/img-6467.jpeg
they normally take 30 minutes max for me. Now it’s 4 hours. Like what is that?
Looks like you are downloading at about 1 mb/s, which might be your internet or playstation. The update itself is very big and basically requires you to redownload the whole game.
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@DH3206 said:
Title.
Am thinking about throwing the 2k cells for the 20 tiers and rift pass, but I am waiting on my paycheck :D
Its not worth it TBH, you can usually max it out around the time level 4 comes out if you play somewhat regularly. In order to get the deep rift, you have to get about 1 level per day. So if you just do the challenges then look at where you are at you can figure out how many levels you need based on how many days are left.
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@THE_Crazy_Hyena said:
WOOOHOOO!
Randomizer mode is something I have been asking for, for a long time.
No meta, just random and possibly way more fun than regular playIts fun until someone lucks into a full meta build while you are stuck with no mither.
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@PreorderBonus said:
There has been a surge of people using re-skin mods lately, and I don't think anyone has been banned for that yet. While I find the idea of Homer Simpson running away from the killer pretty funny, I don't think it's fair at all to have modded models in a game where stealth is an option. For example I could be crouched in a bush, and I wouldn't know if the killer found me because they're skilled at the game or because, in their screen, I appear as the Pink Panther or something, making me visible from two miles away.
I just like the way it looks guys:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jFtcxddG2I@Mandy said:
as you can only do the mods with a cheat, yes it's cheating.
So are we officially now saying that using filters that change the colors of the maps that make things like killer red stain appearing through walls is now cheating?
Specifically stuff like this, video timestampped:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQJ0ts_GGt8&t=170s -
@Chocolate_Cosmos said:
I tested two games so far.
One of them I send myself to his most inconsitent colision map = The Swamp maps.
And I have to say I don't feel like he is nerfed or something. Maybe now you have bit higher chance to bump into something you previously didn't but he is more consitend on objects he previously slide off.
On that swamp map it was very consistent, better than before. So I quess that update worked in this regard.
Does anybody have issues with the new colision yet?
If you weren't hug teching, it was a buff, otherwise it was a nerf.
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@Mandy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/411728/servers-are-broken
am not having any other reports of this and having a quick checks on streams and our own tools, not seeing this replicated at all - can you check your connection etc.
All of the stuttering that randomly happens when vaulting a window as a killer, or when doing lunges near a dropped pallet?
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@BritneyMitch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3705166#Comment_3705166
Nobody is really fine with Nurse being what she is in her current state. Her play rate is just so low it is not a big priority for bhvr to fix. Your point is pretty contradictory, you say blight in high mmr has a high kill rate, then suggest that we shouldn't nerf him in high mmr?
I'm asking who has higher one, nurse or blight. And it is generally accepted that nurse is the best killer in the game. So it should be reasonable to assume that nurse has the higher kill rate at high mmr.
So again, the point is: is BHVR doing this change to nerf him at high mmr, or low mmr? If at low mmr, it will do nothing, because low mmr blights are not using hug tech in any way that is causing them to win games. And at high mmr, nurse is better, so why is nurse allowed to continue going as she is without changes?
The end result just ends up being a dumbing down of the character to state where every single blight plays exactly the same, in exactly the same way while removing a high skill cap thing that blight players can strive for to improve themselves.
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@MRJ said:
Look at this Bubba, trying to beat the anti camp system. LMAO. BHVR, What can you do better?
I'm going to post the same thing i do every time someone makes one of these threads.
The mechanic is not called "Anti Camp" It is "Anti FACE camp" It is designed specifically to stop face camping. I.E. this:
For "Proof" of this, simply read the patch notes of that patch:
Specifically THIS section here that is literally titled Anti FACE-CAMP Feature:
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@BritneyMitch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3703980#Comment_3703980
Saying hug tech is something only top tier blights can do is pretty far off. Hug tech really does not take a very long time to get a hang of.
I think you missed my point.
Here is a question for you.
At low MMR who has a higher kill rate Nurse or blight?
At a high MMR who has the higher kill rate, nurse or blight?
The obvious answer to this is At a low MMR, blight most likely has a higher kill rate, this is shown by the data CLEARLY showing that nurse has the lowest kill rate of any killer in the game every time BHVR releases data about it. And at a higher MMR, it is pretty obvious that the entire community will agree, that nurse is the strongest killer in the game. So it stands to reason that at high MMR she's probably the highest.
So now, based on that.
Why are they nerfing blight? The only possible reason one could determine is that blight must have too high of a kill rate at lower MMR. But, at lower MMR, blights are not utilizing hug tech in a way that is making him have a high win rate at that MMR. So why nerf blight in this way? Why take away something that actually makes the killer interesting to play at a high level, and give players something to practice and aspire to that isn't affecting low level play, and obviously isn't affecting high level play (because if we are fine with nurse being what she is in her current state then why nerf blight?) Because certainly at a high level blight does not have a higher kill rate than nurse.
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@Vindictus said:
I am asking as I bought this game by myself and I was interested in it because when I bought it, it was advertised as a game where there is no communication between players, so it was very shocking to find out you can make premade parties.
People state this game isn't playable unless you are playing in a premade party.
I didn't see that it was a feature until playing over 100 hours, I assumed it was only for custom games.
I am at the point of the game where now it's pretty much impossible to escape, and it seems like it's impossible to counter most killers and perks without communicating. But winning as killer is way way too easy which for me isn't normal if this is really a solo game.
I want to know if it's balanced around SWF so I can permanently quit the game if that is the case. I now see everyone say don't play the game unless you are playing with other people. If the developers are basing their balances only on SWF, then this game should be advertised as a party game and playing solo is optional but not recommended. I liked the game at the beginning, but the matches are unbearable now. I feel like I wasted all my money because I've reached the point where now matches are not playable unless you use comms. Hope devs see this and decide what type of game they want it to be and to make it clear, so people dont fall into the trap.Generally when you start playing, the game is going to heavily favor the killer when you don't know what you are doing. When you start to learn more, it evens out a bit, until at the highest level of play it favors survivor (with the exception of a nurse).
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@Valuetown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3703966#Comment_3703966
If the devs want to fully adjust how animations work, sure. But how would you prevent a survivor from vaulting a pallet? If a killer is right next to it? Or would they just get stuck in front of the killer?
I think the solution there would be to either:
- Make it so there are different buttons to pick up and break a pallet
- Make it so a killer can break a pallet that a survivor is vaulting.
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@BritneyMitch said:
I mean removing problematic techs is one thing, but removing things that don't work if you have over a few hundred hours is another. Hug tech drastically increased blights power in the game. Nobody who is decent at the game at all is getting window teched lol.
Right, but nurse is still allowed to exist in her current state. Why is that? When only top tier blights were using hug tech, it isn't affecting the "average" survivor player. So why remove it?