Raptorrotas
Raptorrotas
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@pseudechis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3480733#Comment_3480733
Its been an interesting back and forth to read and you both make good points. I'd like to highlight one element of your point though.
"It’s harder for me to deal with toxic killers, personally, because they can rob me of even being able to play the game."
Non-participation is one of the threats you face as survivor, its a core part of why you are trying to escape the killer. You are still playing the game while hanging on hook, just unable to participate in the objective, but that's the point.
You aren't just playing to escape the trial but to avoid the negative consequences of getting caught, which are non-participation and elimination.
The fact that the consequences of getting caught can be so harsh in game terms, i.e. complete inability to participate or game ending elimination, is one of the reasons DBD is so great.
There are few games that are so visceral in the mechanics and this causes a response in the players, its like a genuine survival horror experience and should be celebrated not denigrated.
The day you get to respawn and retry and we just farm for points every match is the day DBD dies as every game becomes a bland repeat with no real threat. Often what people describe as "toxic" in game are some of the strongest points about DBD's design.
What's toxic is more about how people react to these mechanics rather than the mechanics themselves.
If i remember correctly, Deathgarden's final nail in the coffin was removing the need for the runners to rescue someone from that bloodpost. With instantkills and respawns, there wasnt any need for runners to do any helping actions but rush gathering blood. It killed the team interaction.
Hope that never happens to DBD.
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@tubalcane said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3479128#Comment_3479128
Where are your numbers coming from? You're also forgetting when you get to the final survivor end game that survivor has a much greater chance of escaping than being killed.
Averages? Like the dev stats? Like they once said "on average 39% escape rate." and the forum was on fire, you mightve witnessed it.
I simply concerted "rates" and made it a game of "chance", but i used the averaged 40% esxape chance as basic. Well, the first survivor dying more often/last survivor getting the hatch may be important to note, if they werent part of the total average anyways. All survivors get a 40% chance, on average.
Also check my reply for the math. Incase you didnt see it before just up a few posts.
@Raptorrotas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3479243#Comment_3479243
I cant remember the names of the formulas and dont even know the englush names but its simple. Getting the escape chances os like calculating 4 "cointosses" or an event with 2 outcomes:
escape chance E + chance to be killed K = 1
E+K = 1 for 1 survivor.
(E+K)^4 = 1 for 4 survivors.
Solving this with the 4th 'binomische formel" ( german name, sue me)
EEEE + 4EEEK + 6EEKK + 4 EKKK + KKKK =1
These are the chances for the 5 different pissible outcomes of a trial.
- EEEE is the chance for 4 escapes
- 4EEEK is the chance for 3 escapes
- EEEE + 4EEEK is the chance for a "team win" by 3 or 4 escapes.
- 6EEKK is the chance for 2 escapes/2kills, often refered to as draw.
- 4EKKK is the chance for a 3k
- KKKK is the chance for a 4k.
- 4EKKK + KKKK is the chance for 3 or 4 kills, whats commonly refered to as Killer win.
Now we just gotta substitue E and K for the escape chance number we wanna look at. You can also substitue K for (1-E) if you wanna remove a variable.
Now its important to note that E is both the escape chance, but also the winchance if you judge the survivors individually.
with E = 0.5 , the killer win chance becomes 4×0.5^4 + 0.5^4 = 0.3125 which is 31.25% and in this case also the chance for a "team win". Now if we judge survivors as a team, this might look fair, bit the game isnt like that. Survivors are still judged individually and thus its skewed in favor of the individual survivor.
With E =0.4 , the killer winchance is 4×0.4×0.6^3 + 0.6^4 which is 0.4752 (47.52%)
EDIT:
obligatory reminder these are averages and a rather simplistic model of the outcomes of a trial, a d all survivors are given the same escape chance, similiar how the devs simplified their statistics "on average theres a 40% escape rate".
Its a simple cointoss , escape or killed.
But if you wanna complicate it, go for it.
Here som variables you may find useful.
F first survivor penalty ( 0.8 < F < 1)
H for a hatch bonus for the last survivor? (1 < H < 1.15)
For the 2dead cases maybe for the third survivor a penalty for hatch vilturing necause survs give up at that point? But that would only be applicable for the cointosses with the first two bein "killed".
Theres a reason i kept it simple and "on average" for all survivors equally.
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Wow, Wesker joins the popular strpng killer club and the proof is already here.
The nerf threads are coming for him.
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@Uxoxe said:
You could remove basekit Borrowed Time, which doesn't fix tunneling anyway and then give survivors basekit, 5 second Decisive Strike, which would neuter tunneling...
And killers would still have a 60% win rate, because of MMR.
60% killrate doesnt mean 60% killer win rate. Atleast by the "3k or 4k" definition of a killer win.
60% killchance means 34.56% for a 3k and 12.96% for a 4k, for a total killer win chance of 47.52% . Meanwhile each survivor still would have a 40% Winchance.
Its not a 50:50 ( 1:1) but a 47.52 : 40 (1.188 : 1 ) is definitely "more fair" than the 50 : 31.25 ( 1.6 : 1) a 50% escape chance would lead to.
Of course these are theoretical numbers based on chances, but theyre as valid as the 40% escape rate on average" the devs stated.
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3479235#Comment_3479235
This doesn't explain how he got 47,52% chance for 3/4k if average escape rate is 40%.
I don't care about reasoning. I want to know how he got that number.
I have never liked balancing purely based on statistics. It just doesn't reflect reality if you ignore reasons behind it. It's nice tool, but definitely not primary aspect.
I cant remember the names of the formulas and dont even know the englush names but its simple. Getting the escape chances os like calculating 4 "cointosses" or an event with 2 outcomes:
escape chance E + chance to be killed K = 1
E+K = 1 for 1 survivor.
(E+K)^4 = 1 for 4 survivors.
Solving this with the 4th 'binomische formel" ( german name, sue me)
EEEE + 4EEEK + 6EEKK + 4 EKKK + KKKK =1
These are the chances for the 5 different pissible outcomes of a trial.
- EEEE is the chance for 4 escapes
- 4EEEK is the chance for 3 escapes
- EEEE + 4EEEK is the chance for a "team win" by 3 or 4 escapes.
- 6EEKK is the chance for 2 escapes/2kills, often refered to as draw.
- 4EKKK is the chance for a 3k
- KKKK is the chance for a 4k.
- 4EKKK + KKKK is the chance for 3 or 4 kills, whats commonly refered to as Killer win.
Now we just gotta substitue E and K for the escape chance number we wanna look at. You can also substitue K for (1-E) if you wanna remove a variable.
Now its important to note that E is both the escape chance, but also the winchance if you judge the survivors individually.
with E = 0.5 , the killer win chance becomes 4×0.5^4 + 0.5^4 = 0.3125 which is 31.25% and in this case also the chance for a "team win". Now if we judge survivors as a team, this might look fair, bit the game isnt like that. Survivors are still judged individually and thus its skewed in favor of the individual survivor.
With E =0.4 , the killer winchance is 4×0.4×0.6^3 + 0.6^4 which is 0.4752 (47.52%)
EDIT:
obligatory reminder these are averages and a rather simplistic model of the outcomes of a trial, a d all survivors are given the same escape chance, similiar how the devs simplified their statistics "on average theres a 40% escape rate".
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@tubalcane said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3478197#Comment_3478197
You know this won't happen that way though.
1) Survivors cry about tunneling
2) BHVR uses this non-sensical 50/50 win ratio to decide if the game is "fair" or not.
3) When it's 60/40 for killers winning the knee jerk and completely incorrect reaction is "oh, it's too hard for survivors"
4) More nonsense is added to the game to address the ratio. Now not only are there dozens of pallets, endless windows, tons of loops with no good recourse - they'll add more of these. AND they'll add the suggested anti-tunneling nonsense.
5) Now the game goes back closer to 50/50. The game gets much easier for players as killers now have to remember, which one of those injured guys did I hook last?
6) Survivors will get lazy and t-bag all over the place because it went from easy mode now with all the survivor "no penalty for mistakes" ways to escape to super easy mode where it's still all that plus now you dont remember who to chase for the tunnel penalty.
7) Survivor skill atrophies even further and many less than mediocre survivors think they are good because the game is easier.
8) Enough top killers get better, and the game is dominated by Top Killers and bad survivors who win because the game is easy.
It's not about 50/50, its about whats fair. If 6 times around a loop before the undependable Bloodlust kicks in, so is tunneling to even the score.
40% escape chance is waaay fairer than 50%.
Math is funny. 40% escape chance results in a ~47.52% chance for the killer win condition (3k +4k chances) to occur.
At 50% its about 31%....
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Great lets punish the killer for the ability to choose his target, sounds reasonable. How?
Can we punish survivors for not spreading gen progress on all 7 gens equally? like they all [Insert ridiculously unbalanced punishment] if 1 gen is like 15% higher than the average of all gen progress. Dont worry, because its survivor they get a line on the progress bar to show the average %.
If the killer gotta be restricted in his ability to choose their target, so should survs.
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@Nebula said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3476581#Comment_3476581
this is precisely the problem. Killer has a built in come back mechanic unlike survivor, and one that doesn’t require much thought or skill to perform, leading them to reach higher MMR brackets where to perform well they are essentially forced to camp and tunnel leading to a never ending cycle.
Be last survivor and get free chance at 1-button escape, if that fails the gens are skipped for you.
Sure does sound like a security net or comeback, but i definitely could be wrong.
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Anyone who ever did start working on a single gen before the first hook should just stop talking about tunneling. Damn 0hook generator tunnelers, cant see their own hypocrisy, lol.
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Its funny that this change of tactics is bad/toxic when killer do, but when survivors start ignoring gens and other survivors to get the hatch theyre just doing the normal thing.
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Anyone who ever did a single gen for 30+ seconds as the first thing in the trial or before the first hook should shut up about "tunneling at 5 gens".
Survs dont swap targets every 25 charges of progress but killers are bad for killrushing the first target they find.
Community survivor bias moment.
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@GlamourousLeviathan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3472187#Comment_3472187
How come? Even if they aren't that coordinated, they still have MUCH more information than a solo. Also, even if all SWFs aren't like that, the fact that some can go to that degree just shows how absurd it is.
Community survivor bias:
"Nerf nurse because good players are good with her and have better results than bad playera on bad killers. Then do it for the next good killer"
"Buff survivor and emulate good comms usacg with game mechanics because good players with comms have better results than bad players without."
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@Coffeecrashing said:
Are killers ever going to get basekit help finding a new survivor to chase, after a killer hooks a survivor?
Naaaaaah silly you, perk-to-basekit is for survivors only. ( inb4 someone mentions bloodlust ore the basekit buffs around 6.0 which werent full perks )
Else i cant understand how all 3 wraith perks hqavent been deleted yet in favor of buffing the mediocre mechanics theyre affecting.
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@C3Tooth said:
DBD is the only game where side A losing 61% is considered A sided game.
Well considering on a 40% escape chance the killer only has a 47.52% chance to win ( 3k or 4k).
Mathematically, the game would be a fair 50:50 with a ~42% escape chance, which would result in a ~42% chance for killer win.
...Atleast in the philosopy of of setting the killer win chance equal with each individual survivor.
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Why cant we just try to buff all killers to the level of the good killers?
Theyre doing that on survivor, and there its not even different characters but a shism between "bad players without comms" and "good players with comms."
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Its an unfair/unintended advantage, regardless if the survivors use it smartly or not. "Just using it for talking about their days, the weather,cute guys and Stacy's audacity to wear those heels with that dress" instead of using it correctly falls flat as an excuse as soon as someone screams "omg killaaah on meee haaaalp me leon!!!!" after being jumpscared by a stealth killer. Boom Leon and up to 2 more survivors now know about the killers status they shouldnt currently know about.
People are correct though that comms dont make bad players that much better, comms arent a flat bonus but a multiplicator. But nobody complains about bad players on nurse either so the problem would be good players getting even better results with comms.
My rather cynic opinion would be that the "bad survivors" want the good players' results of good comms usage by game mechanics ( hud, aura or whatever, maybe a minimap/radar soon™ as people emulate that with comms already) , but they dont want comms to become an ingame mechanic subject to balance decisions. Cant have survivor getting "slightly adjusted" like killers now that comms are part of the game.
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Dbd is competetive but not really esports material.
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Survivors finish gens at 0 hooks, so feel free to kill a survivor at 5 gens.
Play as you want and dont let a mob shame you into playing a certain way.
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Doing gens gets "too hard" and "futile" so these vultures just give up playing the game and wait for the pity hatch thats still giving same bp as door+escape....
Hatch enabling douche behavior as intended lol.
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A 40% chance to escape per survivor results in a ~47.52% chance for a killer win ( 3k or 4k as definied by community)
A 50% chance to escape results in a 31.25% chance for a killer win.
I think most people see "fair 50:50 (chance:equal chance)" and confuse killrate with killer-wiin-rate.
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Play as you want, but remember to not hold your enemy up to your own standards. They're free to do as they please within the confines of the game.
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how about the survivors pick the slug up?
boom, solved and you didnt even have to undeservedly/unrelatedly nerf the top killers.
@H2H said:
I really wish they hadn’t opened the basekit floodgates by adding basekit BT
Its funny tho that mostly survviors talk about needing basekit perks. Imagine Killers got some top meta perk at full tier3 strength added basekit, the community would rage so hard.
Although, funnily I think not much would change if we got all 3 Wraith perks as basekit improvements, blood is barely helpful/visible, scratchmarks always suck and the FOV is horrible.
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@Firellius said:
Weeping Angels.
They're very iconic, despite their non-horror origin, but their function would likely make them useless in DBD.
It could maaaaaybe be pulled off with some sort of light-dimming power, allowing the killer to sporadically render all survivors fully blind, but it'd be so hard to balance and it'd probably be ass to play against.
Oh you mean like scp 173 with the forced blinking eyes in any fangame it is starring in?
"Immobile when watched, fast as phasing spirit when not watched" sounds jarring to play as and against. Would be a nightmare to balance. Especially if survs can control/coordinate/rotate the observing mechanic.
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Wrong.
The survivor community doesnt want comms.
They want the results of good comms usage by good players incorporated into the survivor character basekit, without having to use comms correctly.
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*Other survivor leaves you on the ground*
"damn that killer for slugging me!"
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@fulltonon said:
Honestly, LGBTQ+ killer could have some interesting lore, but it may also be extremely hard/dangerous to write up...
Disclaimer: the following is not a generalisation about the lbgt community.
Im pretty sure there would be shitstorms if the "wrong" person gets retconned or a newly introduced lbgt character is "bad" representation.
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They cant nerf "swf" without touching "solo" because both are "survivor". The only difference between solo and swf is the swf lobby before the real killer-survivor lobby. Theres nothing in a trial different for solo or swf, aside survivor strategy/gameplan/team mentality or lack thereof.
Nerfing swf to get on par with solo is a funny thought though, seeing survivors react to survivors being balanced around " nerf top killer" logic would be a delight.
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@mca240 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3449879#Comment_3449879
Hag can teleport anywhere on the map. The key is to place traps strategically and defend an area. Not simply place traps at hooks and proxy camp. Her lower speed is negated by her teleporting abilities. It just boils down to lazy players abusing her power to put minimal effort into player a killer like the Cannibal standing next to an hook. I think it would be much healthier to remove her ability to set traps next to an hook.
Where would you suppose are survivors more likely to be caught in a trap? In proximity of a hooked survivor or at a random spot at the outer walls the hag would need to walk to first? Don't answer, it's rhetoric.
I'd say it's pretty strategic to place a trap where survivors would need to walk through, like somewhere near a hooked survivor.
The lazy ones are the survivors who bumrush the hook like dolts without ever imagining that a trap killer could place a trap near a juicy bait.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3444153#Comment_3444153
You know what tunnelling a generator means?
A while ago, there were two BPS and a Flan being brought into a match against me playing Trickster as killer. With that many BP boosts, I decided to play for fun and points. I staked out one gen and refused to let them do that specific gen.
We just did some fun cat-and-mouse stuff where the survivors would try to sneakily do that gen while my back was turned. They had way better options to pick from, gens I was not defending, or even able to consistently defend, but the survs tunnelled that one gen I was defending.
THAT is gen tunnelling.
And it doesn't work, because the killer can keep that gen from being done, indefinitely.
That's why 'tunnelling gens' is a dumb term.
And a survivor can "chase for 5 gens", so? the survivors should, according to survivor logic, just tunneled another gen.
People just being salty other people say tunnel instead of rush (which doesnt exist according to survs) is hillarious. terms change, lol, remember facecamping?
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This game needs higher start and scaling DC penalties. Or simply replace "search lobby" by "reconnect" whilst the trial is still running. We're gonna get bot additions, so their characters dont dissapear anymore, thus they could come back.
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@lifeisstrange said:
Tunneling gens is a made up terminology term designed in the killer rule books for survivors that they are not to do their objective, survivors should be wasting time opening chest, urban/self aware walk, follow killer with a flashlight whos chasing their team mate, hiding in lockers or standing at the hook pointing at it and allow them a free hook, thus invests a poor reason to tunnel/camp and raising their mmr getting high tier survivors(not swf) get steamed rolled and complain on forums that the survivors need more nerfing to their kits and perks, (lithe sprint burst and windows being the hot new topics of nerf because dh finally is buried in the grave. Maybe this may not help but maybe if they increase the amount of gens to open the gates to 8 or 10? Would killers be more happy cause am sure even with 4 people 8/10 gens even for sure would be nigh impossible to finish.
"Tunneling survivors is a made up term designed in the survivor rule book to make killers play less effectively....", I'll spare you the rest, but I surely hope you notice the hypocrisy?
On another noteit feels like survivors complaining about the usage of "tunneling" for generators instead of genrush (which doesnt exist according to survivors) just because their own spells are being used against themselves.
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Better a post about this than 5 more about tunneling or camping.
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@appleas said:
Just stop playing Killer if it gets too hard after this gets implemented.
By that logic should survivors just have stopped playing survivor before it got implemented?
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@Jangles said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3443163#Comment_3443163
That's a disingenuous argument and you know it. Your hyperbole just shows you're incapable of having a productive discussion about the health of the game.
It is too easy to use cheap tactics to win as killer. Hooking someone in a deadzone and proxying camping them hitting them off hook and chasing them down for a free down is incredibly easy to do.
Lets not pretend its not happening. I run deli, dh, otr and DS and I can still be tunneled out of a game in less than 5 gens. Thats insane. I've got 4 perks to counter being tunneled and theres just nothing you can do if the killer wants you out of the game.
you turn a game into a 3v1 before 3 gens are done and its gg. That's counter intuitive to skill expression. Thats just ungabunga.
So your answer is 3 gens, interesting.
Personally I think most people ignore the whole timeframe before the first survivor dies and then lament the 3v1 at 5 gens because they were simply unwilling to use that time. Its not the killers fault the 4v1 turns into a 3v1 like the trial started with just 3 survivors. That'd be by the way the only scenario where crying about a 3v1 being unfair would be applicable.
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@Fawiola said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3437864#Comment_3437864
It is if you tunnel at 5 gens and hit the survivor thousand times at the hook. Teabag survivor If they are down.
No offense, but at which arbitarily chosen generator count is killer allowed to chase survivors?
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@C3Tooth said:
Yes! Too many realms with only 1 map now. I really thought they could give Blight & Twin, Trickster a new map for Crotus and Red forest, Swamp.
Imagine trickster getting the swamp map and stepping knee deep in a mud puddle with his fancy pants.🤣
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@Akumakaji said:
Hello everyone,
here is a short idea to spice things up at the exit gates. The exit gates are a place of much contest, much mistreatment and much complaint. They are basically abolutely safe for survivors and much gloating and t-bagging occures.
I have just a very small change proposal, that would help to make the situation much more bearable and hopefully fair and tense for everyone: when a survivor gets downed in the exit gate area, they can't crawl out for 10s. Thats it. T-bagging and BMing the killer aside, but most of the time there is no point for the killer to chase a survivor into the exit gate area, because of the weapon wiping animation the window to actually grap a survivor before they are over the treshold is soooo slim, that its rarely worth the effort.
I could also see this effect extended to healthy survivors, ie should a healthy survivor get hit inside the exit area, the killer now has a 10s window to hit them a second time. This would make the exit area, where everyone is clustered around, much more tense and exciting for both sides, instead of just a staging area for BMing the killer, with successful escorts of a wounded survivor being the most trivial thing.
While I think the first idea seems feasible, the healthy survivor thing would probably not work often.
Its like the EGC being mostly ignored by 99'ing the gates; Survivors would wait at the gate instead of the exit to not trigger that penalty for being hit on the last stretch.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3441290#Comment_3441290
Very insightful! Thanks!
Yeah, one has to assume BHVR must be looking at Blight and Nurse... its a very consistent through line I've seen in all channels... though learning curve is high, so new players trying to learn them do pretty awful...
As a knee jerk thought, perhaps playing SWFs could be debuffed somehow? Not that one would really want to punish people for premaking tbh, and this is likely a bad idea...
But I dunno, spitballing a 5% long gen repair, and 5% longer to heal or something for those players making up the SWF? Scale with the number of participant in the SWF up to a 20% debuff? Solo players matched into the same team are not affected...
Probably would be hated, and the game would need hard nerfs elsewhere to compensate... but seems a lose lose battle trying to balance for the advantage of comms.
Would be REALLY interested if in organised competition survivor comms was banned... 😅
Devs have stated years ago (cant bother to look it up, so take my words with a grain of salt) they do not intend to split survivor into solo/swf balance wise. Its the same character for all survivors, at all times. The difference is comms (third party stuff) and player mentality, which both are basically unadjustable by the devs.
A third difference would be that "solo" has become a blanket term for "bad players" while "swf" refers to mostly good players with mostly good comms usage.Notice that most people only refer to "good" Nurses and Blights when they talk about those killers.
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@Technature said:
This is not about everyone being slugged.
This is about one person being slugged when there are two survivors without good reason.
There are killers whose entire playstyle relies on slugging people, and to say it's all bad at once is a fools errand, but there is literally no reason you need to waste four minutes of everyone's life because of a stupid number.
Why is "I slug a person so that hatch doesnt open" not a valid reason compared to "I 99' a gate so that EGC doesnt start."? (Both are delaying a disadvantageous gamestate)
Genuine question, but its probably the community survivor bias. It's okay if survivors do it.
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@fulltonon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3440430#Comment_3440430
Hatch escape isn't even a win, not even tie, still a loss for survivor.
There is no point in doing it beside just feeling better, which you really shouldn't because you failed to save everyone else.
It's existence didn't made sense when they decided to introduce MMR, grade, or even a merciless emblem.
I think most survivors see it as a win despite it not giving mmr. It's still as many BP as a dpoor and escape tho.
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On topic, How about just recoding the idle crows to trigger on "time not spent on generators" instead of just "doing nothing"?
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3439161#Comment_3439161
Balanced around Blight with 1000 wins and SupaAlf Nurse...it will be painful for average killers like us.
Maybe wouldnt be if that design logic would be applied to survs too.
But naah survivors get their character buffed because bad players are worse than good players on comms. Thus survs want the results of good comms usage as instant UI feature. Im borderline amazed survs arent asking for permanent bond or a minimap/radar yet.
Meanwhile the Top killer complaint flowchart:
- "Top killer op, nerf now"
- Wait x time
- Top killer gets "finally" nerfed
- Wait 2 weeks
- Jump to 1.
- ????
- Top killer finally accepted by survs
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Good ol' dead'ard as base ability? Cant survivors chose a nonmeta perk for once lol.
Snark aside, Wasnt there some dbd-"clone" with such a thing without cooldown? Oh right "Souls at Stake".
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3436630#Comment_3436630
-"Because they knew they were giving Killers an empty update Survivors could point at and say 'You got what you wanted!' while not actually changing anything for the catered-too Survivor mains."
Sadly this feels so true. By giving killers small segmented changed it didn't really add up to one nice "thing". Survivors got a free perk; that translates to 4 free perks for their team. And the killer didn't even get base kit save the best for last- they just got 2 free stacks. That's just not a fair trade.
1 new base mechanic that was a perk before, not even weakened > some small number tweaks.
And the perks of 6.1 are gutted by now.
I think killers are maybe rightfully annoyed that only survivors get the benefit of new mechanics. Even the 2.5% (1.8 charges) bonus to kicks doesnt feel special because survivor or killer interactions werent changed by this. Survivors might as well forget it exists.
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@sulaiman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3435271#Comment_3435271
This is plain wrong. Because what would you like to be the outcome of an average match, when both sides are of comparable skill?
I would think the balanced outcome is something like a 2kill 2 escape result. So if the game was balanced around that, killers would tunnel to get the 4k.
So how much do you have to buff killers to stop them tunneling? So much they get the 4k reliable without tunneling.
Can you give a single reason why survivors should still play the game then?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3434831#Comment_3434831
While you are right (and i would really like to the game to return to more stealth play and way less looping), from past experiences we can say that a lot of killers would use those 3 minutes to just camp and tunnel harder than before, and with 3 more minutes, i dont know what feats you want to implement to prevent that.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3434758#Comment_3434758
Well, if thats your take on it, then you are asking for a big advantage, because you want to survivors to change their target before its done, and the equivalent of that - by your comparision - is not not to tunnel, but to change the survivor you are in a chase with once you have injured him, and giving him time to heal instead of keeping on the chase and downing him. I never saw a survivor asking for that.
Survivors explicitely do want killer to change target before theyre dead. They also want to explicitely have 2 hooks each before the killer goes for their first kill.
I think you misunderstood me, or i didnt say it. I dont care if survivors get a anti-genrush mechanic nor am i expecting them to. I think theyre hypocrites for trying to enforce rules on killers they'd call ridiculous if someone proposed zhem for survivors.
Just start treating both roles equally.
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@JustAnotherNewbie said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3434565#Comment_3434565
Why should bad killer players be able to keep up with survivors playing efficiently. Solo's could never keep up with 2+ regression perks before they got nerfed. And they still can't keep up with SM running a 3gen strat. You're asking the same thing basically. That bad killers and average killers get buffs to counter good teamwork, efficient gameplay. You just want only one side of below average playerbase to be able to keep up and not the other.
How about not putting words in my mouth. That'd be nice, for starters.
Secondly incase you didnt notice, my first paragraph was about the survivor balance logic concerning the relation between solo and comms with friends.
My third paragraph was then about applying that survivor balance logic to the killer side, first by equalizing killers because all survs share the same tools/character and then making the skill related adjustments like the solo-comms gap.
If that logic applied to killers seems ridiculous to you why are we advocating for it for survivors? Way to prove my theory most of the community being survivor biased.
And now for the funny finale. I support all that solo swf gapclosing, no really. But what i really want for dbd to treat both roles the same. Give sirvivor character stuff to emulate comms or forcefeed them the results of good comms usage on the hud, bu then have the balls to actually make all killer power levels approach the strongest too.
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@sulaiman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3434565#Comment_3434565
That might even be ok, if gens never regress
After all, unhooking dont give you back the hookstate, once its gone its gone, so the same should be true for gens as well, right?
Completed gens cant be regressed tho. Removing regression would be more like removing healing from the game, if we try to find similarities.
Gens/gate ~ hookstates
Repair ~ chase
Regression ~ healing/denial/pallets etc.
Escape ~ Kill.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
They already got a lot base-kit buffs.
And you can't buff killers universally while Nurse, Spirit and Blight exists.
Youre right, instead we should buff a character so bad people who play solo can keep up with good teamplayers on third party comm tools. Afterall this community is advocating for it all the time.
By that logic we instead should focus first on bringin all killer characters on par with the good ones and then buff tgem some more so bad players can keep up with suupaalfs nurse.
Way to miss the topic tho as were not debating killer power here, bit moreso a way so survivivors cant just focus down gens. You know, like survivors always talk about evil tunnel and camp.
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How about all survs need to tdo 25% gen and then swap gens all the time. Im sure theyd ne find with doing as they preach. Oh and ofc a time limit they can stay around gens.
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3433488#Comment_3433488
Both sides do try hard to win, except for survivors, its only either die or escape, and escape half of the time is content for them. Only for killer side, its more complicating.
2K 2K 4K "feel like losing" despite 72% kill rate. While 2K 3K 4K feel like winning eventhough the kill rate is the same. Its only up for them that to keep track their kill rate and understand they're doing good with 60% kill as the Devs intended. Not only counting 4K as winning and discard the rest of result.
Though I really think the game should be 5v1, getting 3K every match sure feel alot better for killers.
Dead by daylight's problem is that ideally a fair game gives both roless the same chance to win. But because Dbd is that harshly split between solo and team, should the killer have the same chance to win as the team or the individual survivor?
I like that younpointed out the distinction about game outcomes between survivor and killer.
For survivors you either die or escape. For killers, but also the survivor team, there are 5 outcomes. Normally counting only 2 as wins, 1 a draw and 2 as loss. Though i think most killers do see the draw as loss too. The thing is that in 4 of 5 of those outcomes, at least 1 survivor still wins, and in even in a draw 2 survivors still win.
I think that most people who want a "fair 50%" chance to escape are wrong and it'd be bad for the game.
Math is fun but i spare the details and give an obligatory disclaimer that the following is a generalised formula equalising all survivor escape chances as the same, ignoring for example the hatch among other stuff.
cursive part is the chance for a team win (3-4 escapes), bolded part is killer win chance (3-4 kills)
Escape chance + Killchance = 1
(Escape chance + Killchance)⁴ = 1
E⁴+4E³K + 6E²K² + 4EK³K⁴ = 1
Filling in a 50% chance to escape, we get a 31.25% chance for a survivor team win, a 31.25% chance for a killer win and a 37.5% chance for a draw. All while each indivisual survivor still has a chance of 50% to individually escape/win. I dont remember correctly but when i usesd a online graph calculator i got a escape chance of ~42% resulting in an equal high killer win chance but obviously in a lower team win chance.
As for the 5v1 idea, the even split of outcomes would surely get rid of a draw, but with our current survivor/killer power levels i doubt it be a feasible solution. Most killers are definitely not capable of going against 5 survivors.
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Remove knight, add knight with mustache and hell embers ability lol.
Rework trapper, outdated kit. (Contrary to popular opinion read rework=buff)
Buff everyone below top5 killers anyways because consistency is not just for survivors. Us vs them forevaaaaaah. Lol.
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Bhvr seems unable to touch killer hearing without making it worse. I recall it happening twice, couldve been more by now.
Thin wooden walls eat all generator sounds lol. Chase muasic gets made louder and louder. Etc.