Raptorrotas
Raptorrotas
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Its funny that "a good character performing better than worse characters with worse players" apparantly is a nerf condition for top killers like nurse.
By that logic survivors shouldve been in dire needs of nerfs all along.
But our community has this big survivor bias. "Killer top performance is an outlier in need of removal, survivor top performance is what all survivors should have by default".
All killers below A tier need balancing to make them perform more like A-S Killers to homogenize killer performance. The killer strenght gap actually can be solved (killer abilities) compared to the solo swf gap (player skill and voicechat)
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Do survivors still need to be unhooked or do they automatically respawn somewhere after hooking?
The latter is the kinda removal of survivor-survivor interaction was one of the nails in Deathgarden's coffin. With that kind of life pool survs have no need to help each other, afterall that hooked survivor respawns by themselves. Just gotta rush objectives...
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Either both sides get DC penalty or nobody does. And you dont want killers to be able to ragequit like survivors. Just the mere thought of a killer pulling the cable when stunned or blinded should make anyone realize this is a bad idea.
Just fix survivors being able to ignore the penalty instead.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
the only way dev will ever fix tunneling is doing that change they did to devour hope on that ptb base-kit unbreakable. Make it so that all hook are shared between entire team up to 6 hook-states. On the 7th hook, the next person to get hooked is instantly killed. This makes so that killer have to go for 10 hook games to kill everyone.
I know it is unlikely to ever happen so tunneling will always be part of the game.
I think that kinda mechanic killed survivor-survivor interaction in Deathgarden, which made them rush the objectives even more.
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@Raccoon said:
It is crazy how some killers try to win the game as efficiently and quickly as possible!
We need to slow down their objective somehow!
How about breaking the survivors' legs? That's slow the objective (the survivors) down so the killer can get them quicker!!!!
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Isnt that just Myers knife thats missing?
I cant comprehend how that'd point to anything except maybe a myers rework and a skin for the newer movies.
I mean year 4 was pyramid head and the hint was the shape of the 4... maybe were just thinking too hard.
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AHAHAHAHA my sides hurt.
I remember a similiar list in the good ol steam discussions back when this forum didnt exist.
It did count big fixes as killer buffs too. Sruff that got buffed, nerfed and then slightly buffed again obviously was counted twice as buff.
Someone posted a list with thrice as much actual buffs to survivors as response.
I think nerfs were also on one of these kinda lists. But its been a while.
But I guess survivors did start at a much better place than killer, 170:110 change to 114:98 still doesnt mean its fair.
(Thats why i laugh at people who want a "fair" average killrate of 50%)
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Or we could buff all other killers instead? like its always demanded to happen on survivor side? With the difference that buffing weak killers has NO consequences for the power level of top killers.
I'm always fascinated by the inherent survivor bias of our community.
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Nurse.
The community wants survivors to be buffed because bad survivor players are worse zhan good survivor players on thirdparty comms. Close the gap between solo and swf and all that.
So why the hell should the balance goal for killers not be the strongest killer available? Additionally, on the killer side of things, all the other killers can be buffed without affecting the top killers.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3554848#Comment_3554848
There are no "team" escapes. There has being never team escapes in this game. You don't get or gain anything for any survivor other than you escaping. That's what people seems to not understand. You don't win or lose as a team, you either escape or get killed.
Oh, I totally agree with you that the game absolutely doesnt aknowledge any teams existing outside the swf lobby. Maybe shouldve said it out loud ;P
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@xEa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3554795#Comment_3554795
I am sorry, i have not found any of those so called explanations, besides the killrate is fair because survivor DC more often then killer. If you got somethign better then that, i am willing to read it of course.
A) DC automatically void that trial for the stats for killrates.
B) Lets do some math experiment.
You got 4 coins to toss. For every coin ther is a player associated with it, lets call those survivors. They win if the coin lands on heads. Theres a fifth person who instead wins if 3 or 4 coins land on tails, lets randomly choose to call that one camper.
Now the chances for each survivor to win is 50%, as they only need for their own coin to land on head. The camper though has a chance of 4 * 0.5³ * 0.5 + 0.5⁴ to win. It's 31.25%. Every of the 4 survivors has a 1.6times higher chance to win than the camper.
Now as for the so dreaded 60% killchance, the survivors chance to escape/win becomes 40%, which results in a chance of 47.52% (4 * 0.4³ * 0.6 + 0.6⁴). The camper chance to win is 1.188times higher than each survivors.
In the scneario with a 60% killchance, the chances to win are simply closer together, which is fairer.
Now obviously in the real game, there isnt a fixed chance for an outcome, each survivor performs differently, but people take the "average killrate" as gospel so i think my model seems useable.
@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3554803#Comment_3554803
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3554807#Comment_3554807
And the short explanation is it is the only way to get an equal 40% win rate on average for survivors and every single killer. If you want the math, why and how, again, they are in this thread.
The provlem is that too many people dont seem to know what they want the average killers winrate (3k-4k) to be equalized with. Equalizing it with the average individual survivor escape rate ( the average escape chance or whatever) makes "team wins (0k-1k)" rather rare.
But equalising killer win and team average win chance... See my 50% escape chance example above? The team also gets the same winchance as the killer , and thus makes it on average far more likely for a survivor than a killer win.
60% maybe isnt perfect, but waaaay better than 50%.
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Let's say we got rid of the penalty. Whats stopping every killer from dc'ing and ending the trial the moment 5gens are powered? I sure hope you werent expecting the dc freebie to only be for survivors.
Witv the entitlement of our playerbase, the dc penalty is an important feature keeping the game functional.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553042#Comment_3553042
Do you understand what an average is? It means that some killers would have higher kill rate than 60%, and other would have it lower.
That is why it is an average, and what you said don't contradicts the fact that 60% kill rate means 40% win rate for killers and 40% win rates for survivors on average. There would be also some survivors that escape and win more times than other survivors do, but those didn't fit your narrative there.
And yes, you can use the MMR metric to calculate this as it is the reason of the MMR working that way and devs wanting a 60% kill rate.
the killrate is not the winrate for killers. it is the rate at which survivors do not escape. if the average chance to escape is 40%, this just means the average killrate is 100% - 40% = 60%
The actual chance for a killer to win is the sum of the chances to 3k and 4k. which is 47.52% (4*0.4*0.6^3+0.6^4 = 0.4752)
The killer's chance to win is actually just 1.188 times higher than any survivor's chance to escape.
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If its so easy to keep track of that info, why do survivors need the UI for it?
Just be fair and give it to killers.
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Lol. How about making that a perk instead, works on killer side i heard.
Seriously, no.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
Baffling that some people still think that communication is the main strength of SWFs. Adding Comms into the game would not really change the balance between Solos and SWFs.
Well i think it's the only difference between solo/swf that the devs actially could turn into a game mechanic.
Cant make "wanting to help each other" into a game feature.
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Debuff killers might be a good support. Plague and doc come to mind.
Blight and nurse worth mentioning cuz its the top killers. You dont need synergy if you both are strong killers and know what you're doing.
Wesker/doctor plus any stealth/low terror radius killer. If you're stuck hearing the big terror radius you'll not notice the small one.
I played some IdentityV duo hunters and most often its better to split up instead of focusing the same survivor (that gamemode in that game had a pretty good camping rule: when a surv is first hooked they wouldnt be unhookable for 30 secs but didnt progress sacrifice in the same time)
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@Rudjohns said:
Remove DC penalty and its solved
Congratulations! The removal of the DC penalty would finally allow killers to ragequit as much as survivors do on hooks.
Resulting in a 75-100% killrate in the stats (which ignore DC games), if only because every killer would legally DC when the gates are powered.
The penalty must stay.
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"Hook him or punish the killer somehow else so i can get the hatch quicker"
How about helping the other survivor?
Another point. If we add a thing to stop killers from delaying the disatvantageous situation of the hatch opening.... Can we stop survivors from delaying the egc by 99ing gates? Im sure you'd be fine with it being implemented fair and properly for both sides.
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I recall even the rather thin jungle gym walls have some good sound occlusion eating survivor sounds.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3519674#Comment_3519674
Yep. But it is this forum as usual - Survivors DCing is the worst, but Killers DCing...nono, the game must change, Killers are DCing!!!1111
(But the reality is - neither side should do that. But for some reason, in this forum, it is fine if Killers are doing it...)
Uhm, no one ever talks about killer DC.
When this forum talks about DC its mostly about survivors.
Even the whole "remove DC penalty because we have bots now"-discussion fails to aknowledge that killers can also DC (and would ruin the game quite quickly if they werent penalised.)
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Shadowborn, bloodhound and predator feel like they could be moved from the game if the devs just tinkered a bit with the mechanics theyre dealing with.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3514447#Comment_3514447
I would rather say that there is no toxic way of holding the left mousebutton on a generator since that is what is expected of you and you cannot really do anything else about it gameplay wise whereas as killer you have the decision of how you play the game do you camp tunnel and so on.
So killers focusing their objecive is toxic compared to survivors doing it? Thanks for agreeing with my point, i guess.
May i inquire whats expected of killers if not "kill survivors"?
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The difference between tunneling/killrushing and genrushing/gentunneling is the community survivor bias telling every that its bad when the killers do it and fine/normal when survivors do it.
Lol.
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Would you also remove killer DC penalties?
- Yes: Hurra, the game is now unplayable as no survivor could ever win again.
- No: why the hell are we contemplating such an biased exception to the rules?
Dont queue up if you dont wanna deal with the consequences.
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Do you sometimes 99' zhe gate to delay the EGC from being a threat? The killer is doing just that, delaying the disatvantageous state that is an open hatch.
If you and the other survivor dont help each other or mess up doing so then its not the killers fault for the former and the latter is his plan you fell for....
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@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3510042#Comment_3510042
Per definition, tunneling is ignoring other targets in order to finish 1 target.
Apply this definition to gens. Et voila!
People get so salty when a different word is used for a description.
Both describe "focusing on an objective while neglecting/ignoring other objectives"...
So disingenous.
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@About8Genjis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3507781#Comment_3507781
Oh no! How entitled of a non-meta build using survivor to ask others to not hardcore sweat every game and try out new and fun builds! How dare they ask for more fun and variety!
Who is supposed to be the entitled one here?
Also how nice of you to make it an "Us vs them" argument. They complained about the community mindset, meaning everyone, killers AND survivors. They just happen to notice it more when playing survivor.
"Our focus on winning is bad, esprcially when killers do. Why cant zhey chill and not kill me? ( let me escape)"
Its quite zhe hypocrisy and "us vs them" isnt a valid concern when the thread starts with it....
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Well if you werent so focused on escaping you might enjoy the chases you admire so much.
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I'd rather have the devs reduce the total number of perks.
There should be some perks that the game could essily do without.
As example, All of wraiths perks are seen as either waste of a perkslot or "why the hell isnt this basekit. Just improve basekit, get rid of the perks.
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"Good X player too good compare to bad X players and their opponents? Better nerf X"
If this sets an example, can we substitute X with "survivor" too? I mean good survivors run over like 25/30 of killers ez, or so i heard from sources as valid as those nurse nerf claims.
And wouldnt it be quite hypocritical to not use the same balance Logic on all characters?
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@Kaitsja said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3501142#Comment_3501142
99ing the gates holds strategic value, as it allows survivors to get rescues without the added pressure of a timer.
So does slugging for the 4k. It allows the killer to look for the last survivor.
Denying the opponent an advantageous gamestate by not finishing a certain action seems to be fine for survivors (not opening gate to delay egc) while its bad when killers do it ( not hooking to delay hatch).
Love this community bias.
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@Tsulan said:
DbD was never and probably will never be balanced around SWF. Solos have been brought closer to SWF than ever. Only thing that could put it even would be ingame voice chat. But the community is fighting that idea with a burning passion.
Biggest issue survivors have right now are other survivors. Or lets say, their short temper and willingness to leave the match early, whenever something doesn´t go their way. Apart from that, solo is in the best spot ever. As you mentioned, the HUD is a very big thing, if survivors know how to read it.
Its rather funny how survs expect the devs to close the gap between solo and swf, (without adding comms ofc*) when the only differences between solo and swf are player behavior and comms.
*sacastically, one could argue that once its part of the game it might become a reason to "slightly adjust" survivors.
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"We arent swf, we are just 4 random dudes lobby dodging till all four of us, who just randomly happen to be all on each of all our friendlists, are in the same lobby to get that additional buff. Please ignore that we're on discord too."
Did happen before, will happen again if they make boni for solo or penalties for swf.
Solo and swf are the same character ingame. The devs chose not to start splitting the survivor character into solo and swf, because for all those "differences" between the two, the devs literally have no way to fix the players' ######### attitude towards stranger teammates or tweaking third party voicecomms.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3491984#Comment_3491984
I wouldn't mind that if it was a killer dragging things out forever, but I'd hate to reward Blendettes that have been crouching in bushes the whole game without ever touching a gen. The idea of a team of Blendettes waiting to escape for 20 minutes at 5 gens is terrifying.
Identity V 's afk crows also have a second "didnt touch gen in x seconds"-timer, if i remember correctly.
Maybe somthing like that could help?
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Well, i think the first 2 options are the most popular addon type.
The addons that boost variables ( range cooldown, recharge, speed) are most commonly the strongest and most popular choice for killers. See the whole nurse drama last year and the general complaints by survivors about these kinda addons especially fotm blight.
Personally I think that transformative addons which change the ability totally ( myers mirror or tombstone come to mind) should rather be alternative abilities using the ability/item slot for killers.
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The devs have stated they wont start treating solo and swf differently, afterall its the same character. Rightfully so as the lobby hopping survviors would certainly do to get those aura reads on "SWF but not because we are 4 random dudes who just randomly happen to be on each others friendlist to get the random same lobby we randomly were assigned by randomly lobby shopping" should never return. (yes this is supposed to sound stupid and jarring to read)
So if "solo" gets those perks, "swf" will have them too. And "swf" will use bond/empathy to help the poor sod while "solo" will use it to sandbag that other idiot incase yourself are being chased. So SWF will still be better than solo and survivors will complain again till the next big idea to close the gap that gets only moved by most solutions.
Even "just add comms" will not change much as solos have proven again and again on this forum they dont want ingame comms and not much would change for swf. And if they added restrictions like proximity or killers listening in, solo would still not wanna use it, swfs would still prefer the killer free unlimited range discord and only ######### would use the ingame tool to teach killers some new fancy vocabulary.
The devs cant fix the "solo queue" problem of not wanting to help each other. Disregarding third party apps and comms, the only difference between "solo queue" and "swf" ,as talked about in this forum, is skill: "solo queue" mostly means bad players here, and "swf" good players.
And dont open the can of "buff a character because bad players cant perform as good as good players", if survivor is a valid target, so is every killer.
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@KayTwoAyy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3488597#Comment_3488597
This is so ridiculous, it might just work.
If anything in this game is a constant, it’s players’ desire to prevent their opponent any semblance of victory.
You know, I wouldnt have thought that someone agreed to my jest when i saw Ive been quoted.
I personally think though, even if the BP compensation may be questionable, the killer should be notified theyve been left with bots and be asked if they wish to continue or end the trial instantly.
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How about the trial still ends when 4 survivors disconnect and the killer just gets BP? Like 15k-20k.
Killers wont be playing against 4 bots and survivor will find a new thing to hate killers for. A win-win lol.
Who knows, maybe survs just stop dcing to spitefully deny such 4bot-game-ender-compensation.
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@appleas said:
A hook state counter for each Survivor on the Killer HUD would be nice for starters.
Didnt and wont happen because "but killer could tunnel with it".
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So make her a worse demodoggi or wesker?
Thats unnecessary. Your idea sucks.
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Which tunneling are we talking about?
Reducing or even denying a player his choice who and what to target is a rather big change.
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Not gonna vote because both options sound unreasonable. More survivors shouldnt also get a repaor bonus. But check the ruleset for Identity V's duo hunter mode, mighr give some inaüiration for modificators.
Some highlights:
- No same killer
- 7 of 11 gens ro finish
- Only big maps in rotation.
- 30% permanent repair speed penalty
- After hooking someone, no hook progress or saving for 30s (oui an anti camping thing. Cant remember if for every hooking or just the first hook)
- 3 healthstates for survivor, everything except full health is injured, instant downs deal 2 damage instead. ( there arent grabs in IDV, but getting hit during actions deals double damage even in normal trials, even healing. This rule would buff survivors in dbd a bit more than in IDV.)
Cant remember the rest.
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@JustAnotherNewbie said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3485692#Comment_3485692
Because killers do better in low MMr compared to survivors? The game already favors casual killers compared to casual survivors. But sure keep telling it to yourself that killers struggle vs bad survivors. Unless you're going to bring up actually having to go against decent survivors. Which should not be a balancing issue. Casual killers should be losing to survivors who are more skillful than them, we already accept that casual survivors should lose to a killer playing seriously.
If your problem is that casual killers get matched with higher skilled survivors then maybe you should be complaining about the matchmaking instead.
But yeah, go ahead and act like 90% of the time you face SWF with map layouts on the side bring BNPs and MFT. That's more convincing.
Never said anything about my experience but fine, go ahead and make assumptions about me. I forgive you.
My problem has nothing to do with matchmaking. "Killers" should do well against bad players. Afterall theyre "nondescriptive" against "bad".
I may dislike the whole "casual" approach but not caring if you win or lose might be good for mental health. But not caring about winning and expecting your opponent to do the same is quite some issue often observed in "casual survivors", but I'm getting off topic.
My problem is the obvious community survivor bias and resulting hypocrisy.
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Its funny how good survivor players use bad survivors as a shield but killers exist as an amorphous blob of 1 skill level.
Why cant we tweak the game for casual players on the killer side? *the crowd gasps*
Why is the balance goal for survivor: "buff survivor character till 4 random bad survivor players can perform exactly like 4 teammate good survivors on comms"?
Whereas our community takes out the torches and pitchforks for any killer above B-tier. Even those who agree with "lessening the difference between killers aproach it from the opposite direction they use for survivors. "Lets buff solo to swf" "delete/nerf the strong killers down to B tier.
Same with our community not wanting comms in the game but having the results of good comms usage added to the basekit/game UI. All the results without any input. Cant wait for a map/radar to be added because the pros have an clock system lol.
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Survivors who use voicechat third party apps will not start using ingame comms if theyre inferior. Range restriction is a hard no for most people, as is enemy hearing you.
Most people would use third party for real usage and the proximity to teach killers some new words, blast horrible music or troll any other way.
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A neat little rhyme.
As such it'd be a crime, not to put on you a curse,
So as from now on forth, you'll only face the nurse.
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Well if the problem is people dodging the penalty, then remove the possibility to dodge it.
The bots are not for the ragequitter, but for the people he leaves behind. Their existence has NOTHING to do with the penalty a ragequitter should receive. If they prefer to dodge the penalty and deny their team their replacement bot, it just shows that the ragequitter doesnt care for the team.
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POP's regression is a percentage of current pogress. The generator needs to be at ~84% for POP to remove more progress than PR.
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Dont worry, its just Weskers turn in the "NERF CURRENT FOTM TOP KILLER"-rotation. It'll die down naturally or after the devs cave in again and
adjust him slightly nerf him. Then he'd be safe for aproxximately 4months before he gets targeted again.Its just part of being a strong popular killer.
Cant wait till survivor gets nerfed because theyre in every trial. God, using the logic applied to killers by our community on survivors always sounds so insane, its funny how those survivors dont notice how crazy the stuff is they demand.