Pulsar
Pulsar
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People argue about game balance because they care and want to improve the game.
Despite my disagreements with people here, I am confident almost everyone here wants the game to be better. We just have different ideas on how to make it better. Ideas that go uncontested can be foolish ideas indeed, so I would say that all the arguing produces some very intriguing and well-thought discussions.
As for the "better players", that's very subjective. Some would argue that people who play extremely competitively against the best on their platform are the better players. Others would say that those who have learned to play for fun are the better players. It's entirely up to you.
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@botany_nerd said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3140424#Comment_3140424
unalive yourself? dude must not speak english well cause that just sounds stupid.
It's to get around Xbox's reporting system.
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@TheSubstitute said:
Tunneling has a short term gain in that it's easier to win. Not tunneling has a long term gain in that your chase skills and ability to apply pressure improves. This doesn't account for the best reason to not tunnel though.
Simply put, trying to 12 hook is more fun than trying to tunnel and video games are meant to be fun. I'll try hard at the gym or work or something where the effort improves my life instead of in a video game.
On the other hand, a lot of people won't have fun if they don't win. I'm like that.
The only real reason I don't tunnel is because I know how ######### it feels to get taken out of the game 2 minutes in. You feel like garbage because you feel like you didn't play well, you disappoint your teammates and practically confirm a win for the Killer by dying early. I'd rather not do that to give myself an ego boost when I'm perfectly capable of winning without it.
I'm not against tunneling after the game has progressed, I am against it when the game has just started. You'll find that you don't need to tunnel in a lot of those games that you may have thought you did.
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Sorry that happened to you.
I've had some pretty horrific things said to me as well.
I'd honestly recommend just getting rid of the Chat Box on PC and if you're on Console, make it so that nobody can message you. It's not worth it.
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I mean, me and my buddy played 8 or 9 games yesterday and I think I escaped in 1.
So that was pretty cool.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3139605#Comment_3139605
-Tunneling is by far the best strategy cause a 3v1 is a lost cause most of the time. We need to stop trying to punish tunneling but try to make the strategy overall less effective.
Tunneling out survivors and tunneling out generators both need to be less effective. You should not be able to trade 1 generator for 1 hook if you want the killer to do anything besides tunnel every game.
If your chases are losing you a gen (which takes 90 seconds solo and is the most efficient way to play Survivor) then you are not in the correct skill bracket.
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@Tostapane said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3138886#Comment_3138886
it's the shortest way to being mocked and disrespected by survivors (who will be mean toward you in every case). i wish you did some of my matches and you'll see why people tunnel... i don't know nothing about your skill and your mmr, but i can speak for my personal experience since i didn't had a NORMAL match in ages... every single match done aganist tryharders/genrushers/toxic pricks who want to make your experience miserable is a common experience for me, so i don't see any reason about playing "nice"
Meh.
I tunneled pretty much every game prior to this patch. I felt that I needed to, in order to have a shot in a lot of my games on some of my more played Killers.
I no longer feel it is necessary. My chases are very short and it is not a struggle (in most matches) to not hard tunnel someone out.
As a side note, Killer is still very stressful. Less than before, but I suspect it will always be that way. I think I've pushed Nemesis as far as I can and I am no longer able to play him without being stressed out of my mind. I hopped on for a quick match yesterday and I played against the best Survivors on Xbox. I empathize with the feeling that you must tunnel. There are some matches where that is true. However, those matches are few and far between. Tunneling someone out at 5 gens is easy, playing for hooks is harder.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3138863#Comment_3138863
Is it really skillful though if you're just refusing to use a more effective/consistent strategy that will help you? It's strange when applied to any other context.
Handicapping yourself and winning anyway is objectively more skillful, yes.
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Yeah, me and my friends have been having an awful time since the patch dropped.
Camp, tunnel, stacked slowdowns, ect ect
Can't say we've been having much fun
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3138840#Comment_3138840
If you really do feel the issue is matchmaking, then why does it seem like you are often complaining about Nurse specifically?
It feels like you are upset at solo q matchmaking, and that you want Nurse nerfed so you can still win even if the Nurse player is much better at the game than your solo q teammates.
I'm honestly not in the right mental space to continue to argue this point. I haven't done a good job illustrating my points and it's honestly embarrassing to me.
I'll leave it by summing up what I see. Nurse breaks every mechanic that every other Killer has to play around while having good mobility, insane chase potential and great map pressure. There is virtually zero meaningful counterplay to Nurse.
I'm not going to consider responding any further as I haven't done a good job to this point
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No alternatives really
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@dollidahlia said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3138863#Comment_3138863
That’s hypocritical though. 2 hooking survivors is the higher chance to lose, and how is it a crutch if it doesn’t work 100% of the time? And it’s hypocritical because it’s a crutch if a killer tunnels but it’s not a crutch if survivors abuse god loops and body blocking.
not saying that tunneling is a FUN thing but it’s a VALID thing. It’s the best way to win and a smart killer would choose the best way to kill effectively
Yes, if you want to go 100%, ensure nobody has fun and boost your win-rate in an unbalanced party game, tunnel someone out at 5 gens. There are times against certain players where you will need to camp and tunnel. Survivors do not have much of an ability to counter hardcore tunneling right out of the gate anymore. DS is nerfed, DH got nerfed, their ability to loop was nerfed, holding W was nerfed and nobody runs BT anymore. In 95% of matches, you don't need to tunnel. You do it because it's easy.
Likewise, whataboutism. Nobody brought up Survivors, it's completely irrelevant to this discussion.
2 hooking Survivors is the higher chance to lose. Ergo, it is more skillful if you still win.
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@ThatOneDemoPlayer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3138870#Comment_3138870
You hear the Skill-Check noise as soon as you get on the Generator. If you're still unprepared and miss it, that's a skill issue
lmao. I guess if you're older, have a slow reaction time, have poor hearing or are casual you can get #########?
You know Overcharge skill checks move faster, can spawn earlier and are smaller than DS skill checks, yeah?
Overcharge is essentially useless to me on Killer. Everyone can hit the skill check and the regression isn't great unless you use Call of Brine. I'd rather see the skill check aspect, which kills casual players, nerfed and it's regression buffed. The skill check can still be difficult, make it function like a DS skill check.
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@ThatOneDemoPlayer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3138859#Comment_3138859
How about we don't nerf a Perk because the average Survivor can't hit a Skill-Check?
That skill check is pretty difficult, especially when you don't know it's coming.
Even when you do, it's much more difficult than DS.
You could buff the regression back to PTB levels if you made the skill check a little easier, imo.
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@lauraa said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3138859#Comment_3138859
Just wait until they run into Console Killer wraith aka Unnerving Presence and Coulrophobia
Wait until they figure out that Doctor is almost an auto-win against Xbox One and PS4 players
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It's objectively more skillful to 2 hook everyone than to tunnel someone out at 5 gens.
It's incredibly unfun for the player in question and it really isn't needed at most levels of play. People just use it as a crutch a lot of the time.
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I do think it could probably use a small nerf.
The skill check is pretty difficult for the vast majority of players.
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@Hoodied said:
They shouldn’t nerf a perk because they won’t optimize console
Also its not even hard to hit on console
I mean, it kinda is when your game freezes when there's a skill check.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3138621#Comment_3138621
That would be a matchmaking issue, and shouldn’t be used as an excuse to demand Nurse nerfs.
If it's going to stay, it should be considered in balance.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3137363#Comment_3137363
Almost all the complaints about Nurse are survivors complaining that they should be able to beat Nurses that are more skilled than their solo q team is. How is that fair?
If a solo q team struggles at mind games or chaining tiles, why should they be beating Nurses that have mastered multiple other killers and is legitimately much better at the game?
Because they shouldn't be playing against them in the first place.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3138023#Comment_3138023
Idk let's keep the 28 pallets but we change the entire layout of the map so they're not unmindgameable anymore. Another compete rework (though this may need to wait until after Swamp + Mother's Dwelling)
And anorher RPD rework but this time it actually fixes the issues
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@Omans said:
Can't believe we have Nurses in here trying to claim new Dead hard is better.
New DH is better against Nurse.
Might be the only Killer its better against but the hit fatigue plus distance made from getting hit is better than just fatigue
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3137845#Comment_3137845
What insult? No other game balances around bad teammates. You either think that they do or that DBD is somehow different than any other game in existence. Balancing for bad teammates is not a valid talking point.
"guess you're new"
There was zero reason to do that.
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@SuzuKR said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3137845#Comment_3137845
The issue here is dual-sided. You won't always have a bad teammate. You also won't always have a super amazing team either. Both, as well as the average need to be all considered. Balancing around potential bad teammates means it becomes absurd when there are none, and similarly vice-versa.
Notice how I didn't say balance around. I said consider.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3137820#Comment_3137820
That isn’t logical. A single survivor shouldn’t be able to win the game. This type of thinking is what has made dbd imbalanced in the first place: people are mad about losing and think they should be able to 1v1 the killer forever. Killers are supposed to be at an advantage in chase. If it makes you mad that your team can lose the game, I guess you are new to online pvp. It still shouldn’t be balanced around that
If your team will always consist of a weak member, that needs to be taken into consideration.
It would be illogical to ignore it completely.
Also, please stop insulting me. It does nothing.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3137405#Comment_3137405
Who knows. Either way, it’s not a valid reason to nerf her. Survivor is a team game, which means you can lose due to bad teammates. Deal with it
Then consider it when balancing.
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@StarLost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3137119#Comment_3137119
It's a Fox, Chicken, Corn puzzle in real time. If BHVR buff solos (outside of simple communication), it futzes with the SWF matchup. If BHVR buffs killers to be able to handle SWFs, it futzes with the solo matchup.
Very, very tricky to solve. Someone is going to lose out in the equation somewhere.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/341596/whos-to-blame-for-long-killer-queue-times
This will get a lot better once the incentives are in and the initial tidal wave of people playing Wesker recedes.
It's...also not really anyone's 'fault'. The game needed a meta shakeup and a balance shakeup, and people don't like being nerfed, and don't like being on the greasy end of balance changes at any point.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3137139#Comment_3137139
They are going to have to find some way of helping solos, but I don't think the status icons will do all that much and I'm at a loss as to what else could be changed without making SWFs stronger.
oh god.
you weren't here for the ghostface release. Queues were 45 minutes to an hour per Killer match.
Wesker is going to be worse.
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//
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@SuzuKR said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3137405#Comment_3137405
It's not a fixable matchmaking issue in any game by nature of how it works. In basically any versus matchmaking game ever, the amount of extremely ridiculously good players is very, very small. The odds 5 players are on in DBD all at the same level of skill and in the 4:1 ratio in the same region needed is even smaller. The other option is their queues take literally hours. But it's also not a common issue either, and one that can be bridged with learning more/making it easier to learn by offering guides and tips and whatnot better.
I'm not asking for a 8K Nurse player to only play against other 8K hour players, that would be unrealistic, as we both know.
I am asking for them not to be given a relatively new player that handicaps the Survivor team in a match that was already going to be difficult.
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@SuzuKR said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3137363#Comment_3137363
Thanks for your thought-out response, however I disagree on some of the conclusions. Learning Nurse takes more to play at a minimum level than playing survivor at a minimum level is something I agree completely on, and thus complacency is punished hard. Learning how to deal with standard M1 at average level is enough for most to not need to even try to improve further, which leads to issues like these where people just flat out don't know how to play against more complex killers (not even just Nurse). I agree that average players can struggle at playing against even weaker killers, and particularly solo queue. I think the better decision to go about this would be instead to better the tutorial, and perhaps include things like in-game guides for tips on how to play as and against killers, so there is a better base line of knowledge to learn from for both sides. For example, a looping guide where a survivor practices the correct direction to run a certain tile, and then they're tested in a map without those guides to see if they pick the correct decisions.
Furthermore, I think it's extremely crucial that BHVR closes the gap between solo and SWF as much as possible, not only because of Nurse, but because of so many different issues that is caused from this division. Some killers are kept weak on purpose to not have a power too oppressive for solo despite being weak versus good coordination, some perks or status effects are only really relevant for solo, so on and so forth. By closing this gap as much as possible, it allows BHVR to balance around one single type instead of two distinctly different types of survivor gameplay. I've made suggestions regarding this before, but I think preset message ping wheels that allow for communications of things like "Killer on me"/"Camping"/etc etc as needed would help tremendously in that regard (with minor cooldown to prevent ping spam/ability to mute a specific survivor's pings if they're clearly trolling for example).
I do not think a knowledge gap should be addressed by direct gameplay changes, but rather close said knowledge gap.
I definitely agree about a better tutorial. Your idea sounds absolutely wonderful.
My point was that the average Nurse is much more experienced (and has more knowledge) than the average Survivor. This, coupled with some very oppressive combo's and a bad matchmaker, make Nurse a complete nightmare everywhere except for the lower and higher levels of play.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3137391#Comment_3137391
That’s a matchmaking issue. It doesn’t mean that Nurse should be nerfed.
And will this matchmaking issue be fixed?
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3137381#Comment_3137381
Right, but my point is that people seem to think that they should be able to win against people who are better than them. If the Nurse player makes better reads, she should win. There are mountains of evidence that show Nurse being juked/losing the match.
Why should we be matched with players with more hours in Nurse than we have in DBD total?
Like, a Bill in our match had 800 hours and the Nurse we played against said (on stream) that they had about 4K hours in Nurse. How are we possibly supposed to do well there?
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@Thusly_Boned said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3137042#Comment_3137042
This brings up a question; does the reassurance radius work between floors? I'm assuming it does, but if it does, insidious basement Bubba is flat out cancelled.
It can be used in certain spots, but not in others.
The Basement and the floor of Killer Shack are just over 6 meters apart iirc, so you will have to walk into basement to activate Reassurance.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3137156#Comment_3137156
If you don’t know the game as well as the Nurse player, yes, you deserve to lose every time.
Quite honestly, I shouldn't be playing against comp Nurses in the first place, thank you very much.
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I think it's the Frame 1 hit tech, any Nurse mains can confirm?
I figure if she hits you on the first frame possible, it can look funky.
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@drsoontm said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3137166#Comment_3137166
Doesn't need 8K hours. I've versed survivors with 3k hours that had no clue, and I've versed some with 600 hours that were playing well. As I've befriended her, I've learned one of these "low hours" survivors that were trouble played the Nurse regularly so they had a good feel of my next moves. Not forever of course, but long enough to be troublesome.
Every Nurse player that I've spoken to (after our match) has been an insufferable dick to me and to my teammates and since I'm not an amazing Survivor, I don't find them much.
Not much of an opportunity to practice, I'm afraid. I'm sure there must be more nice Nurses like you, but I must just be unlucky.
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@SuzuKR said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3137190#Comment_3137190
Yeah, I'm up for that. My stance is the available proof of good players versus equally good Nurses comes out to be roughly even, both in ability to be chased and the overall game itself (with the exception of things like one-sided maps, people not trying, meme builds. etc).
I think range add-ons and the third blink add-on are fundamentally problematic because they remove or reduce the counterplay available, while I think recharge add-ons are fine or even necessary (depending on the level of play) - not that it's necessary for most levels of play, mostly just the much higher ends. Recharge is less downtime, but doesn't alter the counterplay to any given blink trade attempt itself the way range or the third blink being available does, and base kit recharge time is excruciating against very very good players.
I am of this stance because for both competitive and non-competitive, there is ample evidence that shows said gameplay of those levels of players playing against one another. Furthermore, the amount of extremely good players of anything in any game is a quite small percentage of the player base. The odds an average player will have to even face them in the first place is low, and even if they do, that's on matchmaking and not on balance. Average/okay Nurses will make plenty of mistakes and unsuccessful reads, much the way that average/okay survivors will do the same.
Furthermore, while competitive's results aren't directly relevant to regular DBD, it can still be learned from to see how players at the highest levels of gameplay handle every and any kind of situation. For instance, how one handles chases as or against a given killer (eg, Nurse). And it shows results at the uppermost levels of play, for anyone curious about that. Which in turn would disprove allegations such as "god (insert) is uncounterable and a free win every game", given that very much does not hold out if they actually are matched against equally "god"-like players. Again, the majority of people do not have to worry about this level of play, but even besides results, the gameplay habits and skills can be learned from.
Additionally, confirmation bias is an unavoidable aspect, and most people will not remember wins or average matches to the same extent they remember losses. Furthermore, because she is the best killer in the game, as people get better, it will become more common to face her, which in turn means also having to improve against them to keep up.
Also, fundamentally, I am of the stance she has the best-designed power in the game, precisely because she can ignore physical barriers. It does not matter what tile or location you are at. She cannot brute force a hit the way a standard M1 115% can by walking up to you will eventually do (which is completely unavoidable at dead zones without something like Sprint Burst). She also cannot auto-lose a chase because of any given map design. She must use her power and win at a mindgame to land a hit.
For example, many killers just have areas where their powers do not work well, and they usually must chase as a regular walking 110% or 115%, which is quite disadvantageous, and in stronger tiles, that is usually a point to drop the chase outright as it will not be worth the time it takes to even get a result. Regardless of how much maps are redesigned, this will always be the case because of the variety. However, while additional LoS breakers do make it more challenging, by winning a successful mindgame, she can still play these tiles as well.
Because of this, it becomes almost a virtue in map design as well in some aspects. BHVR does not have to worry about map designs making her busted (other than extremely small map sizes), because tiles do not affect her beyond LoS barriers in the first place. This cannot be said about basically any other killer in this game.
Regarding her power being a basic M1 and thus being able to use Exposed, I don't consider this an issue. Like stated before, mindgaming is built in as counterplay into her kit, and counterplay is built into each individual perk as well that grants Exposed. For example, Starstruck is countered by either already being injured, staying split up from survivors (which would also avoid Infectious Fright), or leaving the area someone goes down by. Yes, it's an issue on small maps, but that is because those maps are too small, not the perk or Nurse itself.
Regarding the myth that she holds back balance or perks, it's quite simple to disprove. BHVR has continually made changes to buff perks or released new perks that are quite amazing on her, which they have never taken issue with. Furthermore, some of the basekit changes such as the survivors running for less time after a hit or the longer gens are also an indirect buff to her. I have no recollection of any such explicit statement from BHVR indicating the opposite.
Regarding how she outperforms every other killer with fairly low downtime compared to them, I am of the mindset people are looking at it the wrong way around. For weaker killers, a single lost trade means they can quite easily lose 20-30+ seconds. That is not sustainable or good design, because that is essentially a lost chase immediately in time-efficiency against better players. Weaker killers also make trades happen much less often because of how long it takes for them to even get in a situation to get a hit each time. Comparatively, Nurse frequently forces trades, and thus constant adaptation and mindgaming. Did you successfully win this trade? Then you bought yourself a modicum of time, and then you will need to do that again. The amount of downtime is much more sustainable design, and it also doesn't go ridiculously long lengths where there cannot be an attempt to land a hit at all that the survivor essentially knows they are completely safe for.
Also, another point is that people underestimate her said downtime. After 2 blinks, if she swings and a whiff, she fatigues for 3.5 seconds. If she doesn't swing, she fatigues for 2.5 seconds (a swing adds +1 regardless of miss or hit). During fatigue, she moves at 0.96m/s. This means that she moves 3.36m in 3.5s or 2.4m in 2.5s, in which time a survivor would run 14m or 10m respectively. Afterwards, she must spend another 2.5 or 3.5 seconds recharging the second blink by default. (3s per token) During that time, she moves at 3.85m/s, and thus would move 9.625m or 13.475m in which time the survivor would run 10m or 14m respectively again. Now both blinks are back,and the survivor is 24m away from the starting location while the Nurse is 12.985m or 15.875m away. While charging a blink, Nurse walks at 2.89m/s, and charging a maximum distance blink takes 2 seconds, which means the Nurse walks 5.78m during that time and the survivor runs 8m during that time, increasing the gap to 13.235m apart or 10.345m apart. In the 1.5s of travel time it takes, the survivor can go up to 6m while the Nurse can go up to 20m. Landing a blink hit with the first hit is extremely unlikely outside of either an amazing read, a survivor misplay, or being trapped into a corner (which is one or both of the previous). The second blink is up to roughly 1.2s or so of charge time, and then up to roughly 1s or so of travel time depending on charge amount. This is where she can attempt to make a hit again or fatigue again. Thus, between the start and this, the following amount of time has passed: 6s to recharge + 2s to charge + 1.5s to travel + [minor to ~1.2s] to charge again + [minor to ~1s] to travel again = A total of 9.5+(minor to ~2.2s) for a total of around 10.5-11.7 seconds. Basically, every won trade will buy around that much time on average.
Regarding the point of her mindgames being difficult, that is the point. Both sides must adapt to the other on the fly based off how the players are reacting and responding to given tools. For instance, if a survivor looks back, that could either be a genuine look back to gauge when to double back, or a bait to fake out the Nurse while running forward. So the Nurse attempts to make a decision based on how the survivor plays when they do that. But if it's inconsistent, it will only be a prediction at best. Likewise in reverse, if the survivor notices the Nurse is looking at a specific location, it might mean that's where they are planning to blink, or a fake to make the survivor think that before flicking. So they judge based off how the Nurse tends to play. Whether they tend to blink short or long on first, how they play around any given tile or location/LoS barrier, etc. Which is what the examples I had shown prove, that said good players understand how to adapt, and prove it is possible. Similarly, the issue at lower levels of play is (1) lack of solo queue communication ability and (2) lack of knowledge both as and against a Nurse.
Regarding the point of "blink to last seen and then readjust", the issue is combined with the above, that is only the most-reliable option. And by this, I mean comparatively so, compared to predicting. However, that does not mean it actually IS reliable in those options. Predictive is a complete guess of where they may go through somewhere you cannot see, which obviously carries a great deal of risk. However, all it takes for an area or a survivor play to throw a wrench into this strategy is for them to cut off LoS somewhere in the time it takes for the Nurse to reach the corner and then make another judgment, either there's another LoS barrier cutting off vision again, or enough distance that the Nurse cannot reach them either way if they attempt to play safely and not predicting. For example, like said before, Nurse has 2s of charge during which she goes 5.78m and the survivor goes 8m, and then 1.5s where she can go up to 20m while survivor goes up to 6m. Something important to note here is it does not matter if the Nurse manually shortens the blink by dragging the mouse down. The blink travel time will always go off whatever the charge amount is. The survivor leaves Nurse's vision prior to or during the charge (which is quite possible at any modicum of distance there will usually be due to Nurse's burst-style of moving during any downtime). For example, running towards Shack. If the survivor simply continues to run and does not attempt to delay any bit, then in the time Nurse reaches the corner, the survivor can make it anywhere from 6-14m away from the given location. Even if Nurse attempts to charge and go for a second blink, she will not land it unless she tries to predictively go through the walls, at which point a double back that beats that prediction will again, evade her. For reference, because of the up to ~minor-1.2s charge time + 0.25-1s travel time of the second blink (minimum blink distance is 1.5m at 6m/s for 0.25s travel, chain blink max distance is 12m at ~roughly 10 or so m/s), as long as the survivor is only not within roughly 6-8m, it denies an extremely small quick follow-up attempt, and longer charges will give even more time to escape said 12m or again avoid wherever she's trying to go.
Well, first off, I believe you've made a fairly interesting leap in judgement. The average Survivor isn't very good and you have assumed that means that the average Nurse player, likewise, is around the same skill level. This is a fairly logical assumption, however, the truth is not so black and white.
As someone who has played a lot of Survivor recently but has played mostly Killer in the past, the average Survivor is hardly able to play around M1 Killers like Myers or Trapper, much less someone like Nurse. Most players understand pallet looping, or window looping but few understand how to mindgame, how to chain tiles, LoS blockers, ect ect. It's why we saw the insanely long 4K streaks in the past, for good players, the game just isn't that challenging. The average player just isn't very good. Likewise, Nurse has a bit of a reputation. She's commonly considered one of the hardest Killers to learn and is very punishing to pick up, whether or not that's true is irrelevant. It deters many players from playing her until they've mastered many other Killers. This puts their skill (game knowledge, map knowledge, mechanical knowledge, ect) at a much higher point than the average Survivor player that they will be likely to match against. These are the most common Nurse players you will find in average MMR.
For example, their builds will usually look something like this:
This is what the average player cannot deal with. While the Nurse may be able to be looped for a reasonable amount of time, their perks will help carry them over that shortcoming. These average Nurse's do not have god Blinks. They can be juked and they can absolutely be beaten and they know that. However, the Survivors that they play against do not have the skillset to counter her build, her add-ons, her power and the (generally) more experienced player all at once.
High MMR Nurses will, generally, not stack slowdowns. The Survivors they are going against have both the experience and the toolset to be able to play well against her. The players are generally of equal experience and many high MMR SWF's can deal with the best Nurse's fairly well.
My point is that Nurse is sort of the Killer SWF. For many experienced players, it's perfectly counterable. They might be able to bring certain busted combo's, but other than that, nothing too special. However, not everyone is so experienced and those average players will suffer from a serious power gap.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
I believe this is likely a job for Mandy to try and bully Vanilla about. I'm not sure if it's entirely in their control or not since it's hosted by an external system
It's really starting to bug me so I am also ready to bully Vanilla about it
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@SuzuKR said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3137166#Comment_3137166
Wow, it's almost like that's why it's a video of someone who's an extremely good Nurse main with thousands of hours. Or do you somehow fail to understand that average players will not be going against insanely absurdly ridiculous Nurses anything more than rarely? Do you think people are facing Seal Team 6 SWFs every time as killer too or something? LMAO
But yes, please stop wasting my time with your bias and delusions if you have no intention of discussing in good faith :) It cycles misinformation and is a detriment to honest discussions. If you ever have actual proof, I'd love to see it. Hint, asserting something is unbalanced because most people are average and do not know how to play as or against something well isn't the way.
Okay.
Let's try this again and start over. I think we've both become to invested and heated, yeah?
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@Reinami said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3137096#Comment_3137096
So, what you are saying is that we shouldn't look at data that shows the average player? And should instead look at what those killers they are capable of at a high level?
Nope.
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@SuzuKR said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3137116#Comment_3137116
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitchens%27s_razor
Sorry, but you are just wrong, and cases of good players versus other equally good players on Nurse comes out roughly even (outside of one-side favored maps/people doing meme builds or not playing seriously or whatever/etc), both in and out of competitive. Competitive has pretty much all VODs on YouTube and/or Twitch.
As for non-competitive, there's both proof that good players can do just fine in a chase against a good Nurse, as well as that games overall also are roughly even when all skill levels are more or less equal.
Examples of the former: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ig_iQ5S-ABA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnjfG_sLfQg&t=213s (1v1s with SupaAlf, a semi-frequent competitive player and Nurse main)
Examples of the latter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_R-gkMwKpA (SupaAlf on MMR Test Day 3 where equal skill matches were prioritized over queue time) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4ZHFVowqws (Fubs vs partial tournament SWF in regular non-tournament KYF) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30TKsT-s8Y8 (Ayrun's chases versus a decent Nurse)
The main issue with players of super high caliber is the same issue that exists in any versus game with matchmaking literally ever. There's not enough people of their level on consistently for said even matchups. So they get matched with worse players for the sake of queue times. Which is exactly why good players get massive winstreaks on basically anything and everything. You have solo survivors getting 400+ escape streaks without keys and then stopped counting cause they couldn't be bothered to remember anymore, and people getting anywhere from 50-150+ killstreaks on basically every single killer in this game, like someone playing pre-buff Legion with meme builds and getting over 150 wins in a row when they weren't even trying to go for a streak in the first place and only started keeping count because they noticed they were doing well afterwards.
Good players stomping players that are worse than them is not a balance issue. If it was, literally every single thing in this game would be busted, including solo survivors and even the weakest killers.
Well, you know, I'm glad that people with 8K hours in Survivor who knows the animations and timing of every Killer can do well against Nurse.
Really, it's good for them.
Unfortunately, 99.99% of the playerbase doesn't know that. I'm honestly pretty much done having this discussion with completely biased and delusional people (who I keep humoring for some reason), so I'm going to head out before I say something I'll regret later lol.
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@Little_Kitten said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3137122#Comment_3137122
DH was literally: "I have no skill but I can restart the chase by pressing E" 🤔
Never seen such an illogical perk.
And I also play survivor 🤗
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3137116#Comment_3137116
What you say is very interesting; you talk about "seeing" something 🤔
That's exactly why I keep asking everyone who comes to say that the nurse is too strong to show us videos of their gameplay against her.
Because it's easy to say something, but it's better if ppl can prove it 🤗
Yes, DH was very dumb in the hands of good players.
It took 5 years to get nerfed. The Devs don't move fast on these things. Saying, "Well, it hasn't been nerfed so it's not OP" isn't a very good argument.
Also, lmao, gatekeeping at it's finest. "If you aren't able to juke comp Nurses you can't have an opinion" is what I'm picking up on here.
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Oh! I have a couple for this one.
Took us to Coal Tower, tunneled a Nea out immediately, she actually got like 5K points. Here's the messages I got.
No ######### you won.
Said in response to me saying "I feel bad for that Nea."
Said in response to me asking if they really expected a different result when using strong add-ons and perks.
Claims to be a comp player. lmao
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@Little_Kitten said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3136981#Comment_3136981
Or maybe the reason is simply that she is not OP, especially when her range addons will be impacted by the update 😋
It took 5 years for DH and Iri Head to be nerfed...
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It's because the average Survivor experience is ######### awful right now.
No one wants to get camped and tunneled out at 5 gens with a Killer stacking 4 slowdown perks and get 8K points when the Grind for BP got way worse.
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@SuzuKR said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3137104#Comment_3137104
So, there is no proof of her being overpowered.
If you can only use your eyes and not your critical thinking ability, then yes.
You don't need to see data to know that Ghostface and Myers are pretty underpowered. You don't need data to see that Doctor is mid. You don't need data to see that 4-man SWF's can be pretty OP. See where this is going?
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@SuzuKR said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3137096#Comment_3137096
Best =/= Overpowered
If you have statistically significant proof that Nurse regularly overperforms against players of the same skill level as the Nurse player, I'd be open to seeing it.
Nobody can provide that except for BHVR.
Even if I played 2000 Nurse matches in a row, that's still probably less than a single days worth of data that BHVR has access to.
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@Reinami said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3137058#Comment_3137058
It is not.
Every single time they have released data, she has the lowest kill rate in the game. Here is the most recent data they released in january:
https://i.ibb.co/VS3VByW/killstats2022.jpg
It is likely that since they buffed killers across the board that kill rates dipped for most killers below 50%, but yeah, in general nurse is always the lowest kill rate killer in the game. If not the lowest, i don't think she has ever gone above the 2nd or 3rd lowest.
So we should nerf Pinhead, Pig, Freddy ect because of data?
Use your head. Nurse is clearly head and shoulders the best Killer in the game. She's an outlier and a relic from a time long since past.
Nurse's basekit is slightly more reasonable than her add-ons but it is still immensely strong. Don't be willfully obtuse.
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@Reinami said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/341578/when-will-nurse-get-nerfed
She has the lowest kill rate in the game. Why should we nerf her?
This is sarcasm, yeah?
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@Crowman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3137042#Comment_3137042
I still don't see anyway for indefinitely pausing of hook timer to ever be healthy inclusion into the game. Sometimes as a killer forcing a survivor to the next hook state is the play to make and while I see nothing wrong with perks to extend the hook timer duration, I see an issue if that extension is unlimited. At some point survivors need to make the rescue or the survivor on hook dies.
I do think the ability to stack it is a little ridiculous.
Maybe make it so that once someone uses Reassurance, only that Survivor can use it on the hooked Survivor until they are unhooked?
That gives the Killer an incentive to chase someone else as they know nobody else can prolong the hook timer and it stops people from stacking 4x Reassurance.