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@TheClownIsKing said:
(TL;DR - Twins now good. Much good killer. Do the thing with Victor. Win. Celebrate with cookie.)
So I absolutely HATED the Twins upon release. Some of you already know this as you may have read one of my few epic rants about how I thought they were the absolute WORST killer ever. I went within days of first trying them from “Twins are fun” to “HOW COULD THEY RELEASE SUCH A TOTAL JOKE OF A KILLER?!?!”
I was seriously having the most terrible experiences in DBD I had ever had playing as Twins, yet for some odd reason I was compelled to stubbornly keep playing them. I just HAD to understand them. I HAD to “get it” and find out why certain design decisions were made.
I’m pleased to say that I think I’m there now. I’ve been surprised to find out just how cleverly designed the Twins are, and how complex and robust their kit actually is. Probably not since Doc and Demogorgan has a killer given a player such a large amount to digest, although Twins are probably on par with Demogorgan as far as versatility are concerned.
To summarise everything Twins can do (in no particular order, and will be elaborated further down);
- Stealth.
- Map Pressure.
- Game Stall.
- Tracking.
- Anti-loop.
- Traps/Ambushes.
I won’t go into The Twins Camping and Snowball potential as that’s already pretty well known, so it’s just superfluous to cover it here. For the record I’m in full support of nerfing their camping capability. I.e. Victor should be auto destroyed if he’s already within a specified distance from a hook that Charlotte places a survivor onto.
Stealth.
Let’s start with base kit Victor. No other killer or power can move around the map at decently high speed, avoid all survivor detection perks, be difficult to see or hear until it’s far too late, launch into a blazingly fast attack before a survivor even realised what’s hit them, AND cause minor game stall in the process. It’s enough to make Wraith, Ghostface, Myers, and Pig jealous.
Then as Charlotte, if both her and Victor have been used smartly, and is close by to a survivor that Victor is latched onto, Oblivious increases the odds of approaching that survivor from a vantage the survivor may not be expecting. The delay in Charlotte’s TR returning is a nice touch if wanting to go for other survivors revealed by Killer Instinct.
Then we have Silencing Cloth, Drop of Perfume, and Cat’s Eye. All of these add ons bolster stealth play by adding further options in clever strategy. Toy Sword may offer Victor a faster pounce charge to try and get a survivor before they manage to turn a corner, but it’s much more satisfying charging pounce with Cat’s Eye, and then have the survivor accidentally run right back into you because they can no longer hear where Victor is.
Map Pressure.
This probably needs little explanation. As long as the player smartly manages the distance between Charlotte & Victor by ensuring they’re never too drastically far from each other, they’re able to control a significant chunk of the map by having Victor capitalise on what Charlotte does, and vice versa.
Game Stall.
Victor is probably one of the most effective stall tools out of all of the killer kits. Latching Victor onto healthy survivors regularly takes them out of their objective immediately, and many survivors only create further stall for themselves by going into a panic without thinking clearly about where exactly they SHOULD be running to. This is even more effective If Charlotte focuses her attention onto a survivor revealed by Killer Instinct, giving the Twins 2 for 1 game stall.
We can’t talk about Victor latching onto survivors without also talking about kidnapping. Here’s my spin on it. I think pretty much any killer would give ANYTHING to have 1 survivor dead at 4, or even still 5 gens left to repair, leaving them to have to deal with only 3 survivors. The odds of success skyrocket when it’s 3 survivors (or less), with 3 or more repairs still left for the survivors to do. A survivor WILLINGLY taking themselves out of their team objective by kidnapping Victor is actually a MASSIVE boon to you as killer. There’s simply no greater game stall than a survivor literally not engaging in their objective. A kidnapper may as well be an Urban Evader doing nothing but creeping around the map perimeter. I almost never intentionally go after the survivor I just latched Victor onto unless I happened to have Charlotte already close by. I almost always try and find someone else. Even better if teammates have been revealed to me by Killer Instinct. If Victor is kidnapped, fine. I can keep monitoring their whereabouts after some time, and very, very rarely do kidnappers NOT at some point go “oh crap! I can see the others are struggling now.”, and will finally get rid of Victor so they can actually try to help again. Kidnapping Victor is a red herring. They’re trying to psyche you out. Don’t let them.
Tracking.
This probably also doesn’t need much elaboration. Killer Instinct activating whenever Victor is either latched onto a survivor, or whenever he is used as a sentry is an invaluable tool that should be utilised at its utmost potential. This can work to help with game stall if survivors start crouch walking the 12 metres towards Victor to counter Killer Instinct. Using either Soured Milk, or Madeleines Glove (or both) makes this even stronger, whether for the increased detection range, or to make survivors crouch walk over a further distance as a counter to Killer Instinct. This also leads me into...
Traps & Ambushes.
Victor, used as a Sentry, can additionally act as a trap/bait for survivors. Or when either Silencing Cloth or Drop of Perfume are used (whether with or without Soured Milk or Madeleines Glove) allow Charlotte to ambush a survivor given away by Killer Instinct when they’re approaching Victor. Even better if you set up intentional baits using either Toy Soldier or Iridescent Pendant. It’s shocking just how effective a strategy it is to send Victor to a key point of interest, such as a gen you’re certain survivors are going to quickly return to, leave him idle, but immediately switch back from Charlotte to Victor again because you’ve heard/seen Killer Instinct activate the very instant you switched to Charlotte, knowing that a survivor is running in to try and kick Victor (they can’t resist). Now you’re controlling Victor, the survivor is right next to you confused, and they are now able to be pounced on because of the vulnerable, compromised position they’re in.
Anti-Loop.
Whenever controlling Charlotte, and Victor is with you, The Twins have some of the strongest anti-loop in the game. Stop at the most advantageous spot in a loop for a survivor (provided it’s not within stun distance of a pallet), and then unleash Victor. With Charlotte body blocking the survivors ability to attempt another lap of the same loop, and Victor hot on their tail, they’re often forced to abandon the loop, which potentially puts them out in the open while you’re chasing as Victor, hoping they’re able to successfully dodge Victor’s next pounce. It’s worth noting that the reverse can be done too. If Victor is chasing someone that’s demonstrated that they’re adept at regularly dodging pounce, and Charlotte’s close by, then parking Victor in a spot at a loop that forces the survivor to stop and kick him in order to pass usually allows enough time to get Charlotte there to hit them while the survivor is animation locked. At Shack placing Charlotte on the inside of the Window, facing inward to unleash Victor leaves a survivor with only being able to do another half lap of shack, and through the interior once more before they can hope that Victor cannot land a pounce before they reach the pallet, something Victor can leap over anyway. At worst, if the pounce is missed, the pallet is down and Charlotte can get rid of it. 1 and a half laps by the survivor, and the pallet is gone. Some killers would die of envy to be able to get rid of shack pallet this quickly.
Now let’s look at how the Twins 3 teachable perks compliment their abilities. I hold the philosophy that teachable perks are never random. I believe there’s a deliberate reason killers have certain perks tied to them.
Coup De Grace.
I wouldn’t exactly say this perk synergises with the Twins power directly. This perk is more about in the event that Charlotte is either without Victor, or it is not ideal to switch to Victor mid chase, Coup De Grace ensures Charlotte at least has SOMETHING up her sleeve up to 5 times per match. It’s also currently one of the best available counters to Dead Hard.
Hoarder.
I’ve totally changed my tune about Hoarder. I was at first totally bummed out about the fact that a way couldn’t be figured out how to make the original concept work: that Hoarder also reduced item rarity. I dismissed the perk as being a complete waste of a perk slot. I’m still disappointed that the perk doesn’t reduce item rarity (making the perk somewhat risky to use), and I do hope this is revisited and they find a way to make the perk reduce item rarity, but Twins actually get GREAT value out of Hoarder. As weird as this comparison is, Hoarder is kinda like Overcharge. My meaning being: just as no other killer gets as much value out of Overcharge as Doc does, no other killer can capitalise on the information Hoarder gives quite the same way Twins can. Sure, you could use it on a high mobility killer, but survivors will hear them coming. Even Wraith is going to give himself away before getting close enough to a chest to uncloak. But Charlotte can immediately send Victor off in the direction of a chest notification, using Victor’s speed AND stealth ambush a survivor still locked in the chest opening (or pick up) animation by pouncing on them just outside of shriek range. Getting a basement chest notification is comedy gold. And with either Spinning Top and/or Franklin’s Demise, Twins get even MORE value out of Hoarder, either as extra tracking, reconnaissance (just to stay informed), or further ambush opportunities.
Oppression.
The gen regression potential of Oppression is pretty easy to understand (opinions on how effective this is or isn’t notwithstanding). But it’s more noteworthy how Oppression works as a tracking tool. Failed skill check after activating Oppression? Now you know where to send Victor next. It doesn’t get more straight forward than that.
Closing thoughts.
Twins are hard, and deserving of the difficulty advice label given in game. But this is more than just how they operate mechanically: both the challenge of accurately landing a pounce, and how punishing it can be for a single miss. It’s also because of how deeply complex their total kit is (comparatively speaking, against other killers). They’re a very rewarding killer once confidence is built around using everything at the Twins disposal at the appropriate times, and learning when to change gears to another of their many available strategies.
Twins is terribly designed
1) Because victor can't pick up and hook survivors, you literally HAVE to slug with him
2) Victor is designed for camping. You can just leave victor next to a hooked survivor, and when killer instinct goes off, you can just hop back on victor and either down an injured survivor (which is more slugging yay), or completely delay the healthy survivor that came to unhook. You can then return to the hook and kill the other survivor.
The sad part is that you are forced to play that way if you are going against good survivors. If you try to play a nice, fair game with twins against red rank swf, you are going to get completely ass-blasted.
The killer is literally designed to camp and tunnel, and therefore, is terribly designed. Whether or not the killer feels like they are playing strategically, when a survivor is on a hook just watching victor face camp themselves at the same time charlotte downs someone across the map, it definitely doesn't feel like a well designed killer.
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2307759#Comment_2307759
Its exactly Killer slug you and have a free hook stage because he fear you have DS, eventhough you dont have it.
I like the 1 direction game play like Home Sweet Home Survive because everyone has a chance to play their game, its much harder to get tunneled there.
But the unexpected things is what make DBD has key moments in each match.
Well glad to see that you ignored both of my questions. Killers can easily avoid DS by just not tunneling, since it deactivates when they touch a gen or do anything else. Decisive strike requires you to be hooked, be unhooked in the past minute, not do any objective, get chased by the killer, and then land a skill check. Noed just activates when you lose the game to get a free kill on some poor survivor. You made a terrible comparison.
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@thrawn3054 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2307654#Comment_2307654
Not like Ruin/Undying are meta or anything right now. The perk can help you prevent three gens, find a chest if you need, and find the killers hex totems. Given all that I'd say my argument is pretty good actually. By all means run whatever you like. Just don't pretend it takes some mystical power do do something easy.
It's easy to do all 5 bones in a solo queue game? Also what if you do all 5 bones and he doesn't even have noed?
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I did read it moron. The #########? What the hell do you want me to read again? You literally said to make dead hard basekit... idk what your smoking but I want some of that too
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Why not give every survivor dead hard and 4 other meta perks? Great idea!
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Noed is a terrible perk for four main reasons
1) There really isn't a way to counter it immediately unless you happen to already be next to the hex totem, or magically do all 5 dull totems just in the small off-chance the killer has this one perk.
2) There is no warning that it is coming. You can have an amazing chase at the end of the game whilst trying to save a teammate off of a hook, you try to take a hit for a speed boost, and then bam, your dead for literally playing the game correctly.
3) It is undeniably a crutch for terrible killers. I have been in so many games where I have looped the killer for at least 2-3 gens, and then as soon as he catches up after 2 minutes he manages to just one shot me and then camp me in the basement.
4) It punishes survivors for playing well, and rewards killers for playing badly. This is an extremely powerful perk that only activates when all generators are done. Even perks like Remember Me and Blood Warden at least take some work to get. For Noed, your literally just handed it for free when your about to lose the game.
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@Gnarly said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2306168#Comment_2306168
Doctor aspect yes, but more spirit than wraith. You have a decently ranged tendril to help with looping, but do you think making him faster be better?
You want to make a killer that is similar to spirit???
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Blight is the most well designed killer in the entire game. The only issue are the people who abuse a high dpi to flick around corners. You can see him enough to react, and he can't magically teleport through walls.
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Only cleanse at the end of the game far away from the exit gates. Being loud isn't really a big deal because you shouldn't be stealthing anyway
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This sounds like a hybrid of doctor and wraith, but really slow making it impossible to actually chase survivors.
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@JnnsMu said:
Step 1: Boot the game
Step 2: Play as the Legion and equip Hysteria or any other perk that makes survivors Oblivious
Step 3: In-game, hit a Survivor with Feral Slash while another survivor that is affected by the Oblivious status effect but not by the Deep Wound status effect is in your terror radius
Step 4: Notice that said survivor is not highlighted by Killer Instinct
Excerpt from the Legions' power description: "All Survivors within the Terror Radius not afflicted by the Deep Wound status effect are indicated by Killer Instinct."
Oblivious survivors may not be able to hear the heart beat but they can still be "within the Terror Radius" and should therefore be revealed by Killer Instinct when they are. This means that the way it is now is either bugged or simply wrongly implemented. Please fix this.
A survivor that is oblivious is not in your terror radius because he cannot hear your terror radius. That is exactly how infectious fright, and yes, feral frenzy works.
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@thrawn3054 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2299930#Comment_2299930
Without needing to hit the skill checks or an ultra rare addon. Your suggestion would push it to over 30 seconds saved. That's not even adding in Streetwise. I love Built to Last, but that would be broken. If anything I wish it would refill any depleted item by 50%. Meaning if I grab multiple things from chests it procs multiple times.
That would be even better than a one time 75% use. Wire Spool and Scraps are as expensive as a brand new parts
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@thrawn3054 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2271205#Comment_2271205
An engineers toolbox with wire spool and scraps can save 27 seconds using Built to Last.
Wow thats like 1 brand new part
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@FancyMrB said:
Can you do a killer one :3?
My favs that you changed are:
- Plunder
- Buckle Up
- Better Together
- Dead Hard (not sure about the roll but it should not be immune to bear traps).
I'm not a killer main but sure I'll do one
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@CoalTower said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2271200#Comment_2271200
I wasn't referring to the medkit part
I talked about the toolbox as well
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In this video he pretty much used all of his perks just to get a really strong medkit. This means he has to for-go using much stronger standard survivors perks such as dead hard, adrenaline, iron will, etc. Healing really fast is nice but I don't think that would have payed off had he gone against a better killer and not a rank 13. For the toolbox part it seems that he was able to queue with his friend again and that's why they finished a generator extremely quickly. Again, having to use built to last and streetwise cost him 2 valuable perk slots that he could have used for better perks.
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@CoalTower said:
I like most of these, but built to last would be OP. People have already shown how powerful it is with genrush toolboxes.
I disagree with this because receiving 75% more charges on a toolbox would only save about 10 seconds off a gen with the strongest toolbox (commodious with socket swivels and wire spool). Brand New Parts is much stronger than that and cannot be used with Built to Last. I would also argue that a perk slot is more valuable than an item with 75% of its charges.
@MadLordJack said:
Most of these are good, but there is a massive (one could say infinite) reason that Balanced Landing had its permanent stagger reduction removed.
I'd also really not buff Lucky Break like that without severely reducing the active timer to 10 or even 5 seconds, it's already one of the strongest and unfairest perks in the game and hasn't left my build since it was buffed, even without Iron Will.
I know that the permanent stagger reduction could make some loops extremely strong, but I would argue that those loops need to be better designed. Balanced Landing is the second worst exhaustion perk in the game and some maps you can't even use it on
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Just practice the ds skill check and you will get really good at it. It's hard the first couple of times but you will get the hang of it eventually
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Have it just destroy dropped pallets and then block undropped pallets in a 16 meter range, and remove the cooldown.
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@Seanzu said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2251041#Comment_2251041
Generators take longer regardless, draging wires across to every door (5 of them per your writing) will more than make up for the 10 seconds you've removed from generators, not to mention the small but still additional amount of time to fix the gate levers.
Also, say there are two survivors left, which happens very often, how do two survivors keep the killer distracted while also dragging five wires to a door as well as open the door and also there's perks that increas door time, this essentially when it boils down to it just increases gen times while adding impossible tasks to complete depending on how many survivors are dead. you know if theres two people and you're chasing one, you have enough time to down the survivor before the other survivor could have gotten 5 wires to the gate and opened it.
If there are only 2 survivors left alive then they are pretty much gonna lose regardless of how many gens are completed.
Games need to be slowed down because any good survivor swf can easily run circles around almost any killer and have their teammates finish all the objectives in 4 minutes. Even random good survivors can do all of the generators really quickly
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@Seanzu said:
Yes, please, increase generator times, as if I don't 4K enough of my matches I definitely need to 4K all of them 😴
You didn't even read the thread. I literally said we should reduce gen times. Just because you have an anecdote that you 4k most matches doesn't mean the game is balanced.
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@konchok said:
I've been running the following build at rank 1 and I've been winning 75 percent plus of my games.
Furtive Chase, Nemesis, Dark Devotion, Rancor
I'm absolutely love running an obsession based build that's made the game enjoyable for me. So, I downright disagree with your premise, slow down perks are not a requirement to do well in this game.
What Killer do you use, do you use any addons, and how many hours do you have in the game?
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@CountVampyr said:
Stridor makes regular breathing 25% louder and grunts of pain 50% louder. Purple Iron Will cuts grunts of pain down to 0%. I know what they mean, but it irritates me that the description for Stridor is improperly worded. Multiplying zero by any number is still going to be zero.
discuss.
Your doing the math wrong.
Normal Injury Sounds are 100%
Iron Will Subtracts 100%
Stridor Adds 50%
100% - 100% + 50% = 50%
Iron will doesn't "set" your sounds to 0%, it just reduces it by 100%, which is completely different.
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@WeenieDog said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2226601#Comment_2226601
Free just means the perks that you have available just by buying the base version. No dlc.
A lot of the killer meta revolves around dlc perks compared to survivors that have a solid selection at no extra cost.
Oh ok I see what he is saying. Yeah I feel bad for killers who can't afford any DLC. It's pretty much a death sentence to not have at least 2 gen slowdown perks unless your either nurse or spirit.
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Your supposed to spam crouch and aggressively flash light click to go into the hatch.
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It looks like your trying to make the perk do too many things all at once. My suggestion for buffing this perk would to be increasing the pallet blocking range to 32 meters and block vault locations as well. Maybe even have it destroy already dropped pallets if your extra spicy.
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I don't understand what your tier list is trying to show. I thought you were going to talk about common perks, but I don't understand what a "free" perk is if that's not what your talking about. What perk doesn't cost bloodpoints to level up? I am very confused.
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100% Survivor sided. Watch Hexy's Tournament if you don't believe me. Survivors won almost every single time against extremely sweaty nurse/spirits.
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1) Every game will now be on either Haddonfield or Dead Dawg Saloon.
2) Gens take 5 minutes to repair
3) Survivors can instantly be mori'd on the ground without being hooked
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Getting an object survivor as a trapper is a ######### terrible feeling.
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@Dweet_Unfairfield said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2091540#Comment_2091540
DeathSlinger is the definition of opressive in a 1v1 but bad in 4v1. He can zone and has 0 chase counters beyond predrop and hope he misses.
He isn't as opressive as blight since blight has mobility.
Oni and Billy feel much more fair, i just wish billy didn't get nerfed
I would love to see your survivor gameplay.
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@GoobyNugget said:
AKA the most talked about add-on in the game.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/V5G52LY8N5UH/image.png
So, opinions?
QWERTYUIOP, NuggetGooby.
just change it so iridescent head only insta-downs survivors when the hatchet is thrown from 20 or over meters. This makes it so the Huntress can't just one shot everyone in the game like a hillbilly who never uses her m1
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@Dweet_Unfairfield said:
It's pretty clear from my last few posts\comments that i loathe Blight. But today's discussion is about people parroting streamers.
Blight on stream has to be one of the most boring killers to view, the matches are hardly close, every blight (but Scott) all seem to play the same way same perks, add-ons, super stretched res, low settings etc. Xeno is the perfect example. But I'm getting off point.
There seems to be this illusion of blight's fun level. Most people don't play vs him much, bu their own admissions and get the opinions from streamers or youtubers. The same reason many perks\killers\maps\etc get a lot of hate. Or the reason people will hear mmr mentioned and demand it, like servers years ago or dc bans. Neither of which help dbd btw.
But streamers who seem to play no one but blight, have blight forum pfps, and constantly talk about how fun and balanced he is cause the viewers to parrot the same points. I don't doubt some people want those things, or enjoy versing him but in my opinion blight is just as oppressive as deathslinger or spirit, with mobility and a higher skill cap. But i get horrendous map rng which leads to mu unusually high blight encounters leaving me with 0 pallets(5-10 tops) and monstrous deadzones. So it feels like he has no counters, especially the "sweaty, j-flick stretched res, 3 slowdowns tinkerer bbq bois" who down someone every 15 seconds and slug at 4 gens. Not to mention the truck sized hitbox on his power lunge. And lock of collision unlike actually balanced killers, Oni, Billy, Bubba.
Sorry for ranting but i hate Blight.
I know Blight pfps will insist he has counter-play but 50-50s and hoping for better rng isn't valid or healthy. I think he gets a free pass from well-deserved hate and criticisms because the fact not many people see him, and many streamers ride blight so hard.
I think he is the most oppressive killer in the game, his weapon and cosmetics suck, his music is overrated and his gameplay on the survivor side is dreadful... Thank you for reading this and I'm interested in seeing thoughtful discussion, please be sensible and try to be unbiased(yes you blight profile pics, and users i shall not name directly)
I look to forward to responses to change my views or to see if i changed other perspectives. Try to be open minded :)
Blight is very fun to play as and against. J-flicking blights are very annoying but will hopefully be patched soon. (yes, j-flicking is an exploit, stop crying your not supposed to instantly turn 180 degrees in a lethal rush).
You also said that deathslinger is oppressive? Which makes me think you just aren't a very good survivor. I would love to see your gameplay if a deathslinger keeps getting 4k's in all of your games.
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@kaeru said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2082884#Comment_2082884
I think lacreation should go up with time, like plaue's intoxication. It doesn't make sence how this cuts getting healed by itself while survivor running and vaulting losing blood.
I think its because they wanted to make him somewhat unique from plague, whereas her ability makes survivor gain infection over-time, Trickster's goes down over-time. (which in retrospect was a terrible idea lmao)
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@GannTM said:
I honestly feel like the laceration meter shouldn't go down at all. It is so hard to commit all 8 knives in one single chase and it just takes too long. It's very unfair how Ghostface as a 4.6 killer can 99% stalks but Trickster can't do that as a 4.4 killer with a way worse ability.
I agree with this idea, unless maybe it should go down but VERY slowly (like 1 knife every 30 seconds). So you aren't just trapped at 7 knives. Because even thought ghost face can 99% you he still needs his Night Shroud ability to be recharged to be able to finish the stalk.
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Trickster undoubtedly needs a buff. His knives are absolutely terrible for trying to injure survivors, and survivors can just hold w behind cover and his ability is worthless. Unlike Deathslinger or Huntress who are rewarded for landing one good shot, Trickster needs to spam 8 knives that all hit their target whilst the survivor can easily hide behind cover and begin to recover from their laceration meter.