NeverSolus
NeverSolus
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It doesn't seem that way. It is that way.
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Initially I would have said good - as in time it could develop into more fulfilling perks and build variety. But given the current rate of data release and perk adjustments (none), I realize that in order for diminishing returns to reach fruition, it will take until the heat death of the universe; at least at the current trending update speed.
It seems to be nothing but a half-hearted attempt to address balance without actually doing the dirty, hard work of addressing the issues. I would love to be wrong, but as of current I've seen no evidence to the contrary and promises are hollow.
Again, would very much like to be wrong. -
@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4089663#Comment_4089663
I don't know how there's any other way to know, not with how much randomness there is in each match from a zillion possible perk interactions. If they could see how every killer in every MMR bracket does on every map then they'd have answers that exclude benefits beyond basekit. But, again, matchmaking needs to function or the data would be useless. A high MMR 4man stomping a low MMR GF is not useful data.
Honestly, 'perkless' mode would fix alot of DbD's balance issues. Perks really are the issue in most balance situations. I'd play the hell out of that.
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@ToppingPanic said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4089687#Comment_4089687
Quite clearly, the spears have the hitbox of a school bus would imply they are too large and should more accurately represent something more the size of… possibly a spear! I'll pray for you, lil bro.
You… uh, you're just. You're just wrong, and like three people have told you as much but sure. But, goodluck with praying for me, I guess, and enjoy that vantage point from the high horse.
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@Xendritch said:
I think in a vacuum Jason's powers are all fine but after giving this enough time I'm realizing making mistakes on Jason basically doesn't matter. Miss a spear? Reload at a scrap pile or hook that are literally everywhere with a reload time that makes Huntress jealous while having more range than slinger while basically being 115% the whole time. Survivor make too much distance? Go back into mist form and catch right back up. Did they make too much distance again? Well your cooldown is 5 seconds so go right back into mist form. Didn't protect a 3 gen? Doesn't matter with his mobility. Survivors know the counterplay to mist form and you can't find them? Well you can basically just stay in mist form forever and force them to do something or else you're all stuck there forever.
I am okay with Jason being able to do everything he can do but this handholding is dumb and outplaying him doesn't feel good because any advantage you get is minimal because Jason can basically reset the situation anytime he wants. This feels like ghoul again but this time the skill floor is higher for sure but this time BHVR has provided an escalator for anyone that struggles reaching it.
Honestly, I'm glad. Most Killers are absolutely unforgiving, it's nice to have a Killer who gets equal representation in the second chance category. Though admittedly I am getting annoyed at people calling him a 'ranged' killer when his M2 is about as accurate as a Fox News editorial and clunkier than a pontiac.
I really do wish he was built around his spear throwing and pinning. Instead pinning is worthless, his M2 is meh. His OE is everything to him. But it's nice to play a killer with which I don't feel so punished, legitimately. -
@ArkInk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4089695#Comment_4089695
Exactly. A good Huntress will make the game feel like an interactive cutscene where you watch your entire team get dispatched by Agent 47.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4089642#Comment_4089642
Jason needing to reload between each shot is already such a massive difference between them, Huntress can down 3 survivors and get an injury before needing to find a locker.
100%. This. My girl is incomparable to Jason in the ranged department. He can have his haste on OE, just leave Huntress alone.
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@Wezqu said:
They could make it so that longer he stays in the mode he will eventually lose the information he could gain from it. Like so survivors could run around and he could not see them if he stays in it too long. I don't know what the timer should be but it would not remove the possibility to stay in the mode but at least would have downside of staying in it too long.
I'd be down for that over establishing a duration. Leave duration, but make the indicators of red smoke disappear and reduce him to sound only like spirit (sans scratchmarks.)
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@Ingway said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4089688#Comment_4089688
Ok, I've been doing this. However, since he can (and will) enter his special mode very often, this leaves survivors "doing nothing" for an extensive period of time (if you "sum up" all the time you spent crouching and "walking away" of a gen you were repairing to avoid being detected). Also, as I previously mentioned, Jason builds sinergies are amazing, and that includes aura-reading perks. He's "more or less" aware of where survivors are, which direction they were moving, etc. So, yeah… all points taken in consideration, he's got mobility, he's got map pressure, he's got haste + slow on survivors hit by the spears, he's got it all.
Plus, if you are just walking around the map, he detects you. If you crouch and stay still, he can also detect you. So, basically, the "ideal counterplay" is: crouch and keep walking away from the gen. Since most survivors deem Urban Evasion as a wasted perk slot, they can't walk away from the gen faster than Jason can get to it, so, basically, it's a "useless strategy". If i'm not mistaken, he's got some exhaustion addons as well, which renders Sprint Burst useless. He can also hear you when you're injured, and see pools of blood, no? Which renders Overcome useless as well. Lucky Break + Bite the Bullet + Self-care + Botany knowledge are all rendered useless considered he can see you with the red mist mechanic. Iron Will also becomes useless, as he can see your pools of blood and if you brought an exhaustion perk, you'll be exhausted and thus Iron Will will be deactivated. Calm Spirit is useless, as I have explained above… so far, no decent survivor build against him. What are your suggestions? I'm open to hear them.
When Doctor shocks, you hop in a locker, doing 'nothing.' When you hear ghoul coming, you hold W to the next loop and hide, doing nothing. Jason is not doing anything with OE that isn't standard in counter-play. It is boring I openly admit, but it's not problematic or in any way unique. His counters are actually incredibly easy and generous : crouch. Crouch and you have disabled half his kit.
I understand this seems frustrating but the portion of the counter-play you are neglecting is that you don't just crouch all game and walk in circles. You crouch and move ; until Jason engages chase. Once he's in chase with someone you burn down gens. He's more than likely not coming for you while engaged in chase, and you have HUD indicators telling you if he's in chase.
Perks do help as well. Urban evasion isn't great, but does do wonders to counter him. Calm spirit helps, ish, but is unnecessary. The standard three gen rush perks and urban more than counter-act him.
That being said, while I understand frustration : He's been out for less than a week and you are already determining it is time to discuss nerfing him? Half the player base doesn't even counter-play him yet. How can you determine its time to nerf him when the bulk of the player base hasn't even engaged with his mechanics in the fashion around which he was balanced? No offense intended - this just comes off as premature. -
@ToppingPanic said:
Would be a great change if he were throwing spears, not school buses. Also, there should really be a speed decrease when he draws just like Huntress.
What… what is your complaint? I don't understand. As Wezqu pointed out the spears lack the range, speed, and hitbox of huntress hatchers. There is also a speed decrease when he draws. I don't understand. Can you help us by clarifying your complaint a little bit?
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In fairness I drew that comparison in a specific context: Information modes with infinite duration should not be a thing, was the claim. That's apples to apples. But comparing them wholesale is erroneous, I'd agree. They are closer than not, but still not quite apples to apples. Wraith can end his stealth at will, but OE has to use a vault/pallet point, with the bonus of gaining haste for that requirement. He has the M2 atop of that, which makes him impossible to 1:1 to Wraith. But OE to wraith is itself fairly valid.
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@cogsturning said:
My problem with OE being infinite is mostly with end game. If he slugs for the 4k it's gg. You can't crouch for 4 minutes without getting crows but as soon as you do anything else hell get free info. Getting the gate open as the last person is nearly impossible too, unless you have a whole build for it, because even if you do the thing where you only partially open it first, he'll see you on it and pop out.
The end game is a touchy portion, admittedly. I'm beginning to think Jason should probably give surv's a gate opening speed buff or something.
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@MilkToast said:
I like Jason however playing as or against when his sound effect detects a survivor when he jumpscares gives you a headache after a while.
Can we get like a slider just to lower the volume on that. That wouldn't effect things in any way other then saves me from a headache
Honestly this is fair. There are a lot of unnecessarily loud noises and loud sound queues isn't a valid kit or skill expression. I'd personally also like to be able to turn off survivor screams on hooking. Kills my ears.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4089650#Comment_4089650
The problem with doing that is the same problem we have in Chaos Shuffle, where killers just tunnel at 5 gens and use the lack of gen regress as an excuse—and if gens are basekit slowed that becomes even easier. I wouldn't want to see changes in gens without anti-cheese with it. A lot of killer-players win consistently without any slow down so I don't know if it's truly needed or people just think it is, or if matchmaking is at fault for 5 minute survivor wins (as it likely is for 5 minute killer wins as well.)
The only way to really get a clear picture of whether or not any further adjustments would be needed would be to do a perkless modifier and use it to gather data. And if every match had hard tunneling than it would be good for gathering data on that too. I wish they had a mode like this to get raw data every few months.
While I want to argue this - you're right about the fact that we need pure data. We really do need a perkless mode to gather data and see the balance state as it truly is before the conversation on that side could go much of anywhere, huh?
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4089629#Comment_4089629
I think this simplifies the game too much. It's like your approaching it as though all killers bring slowdown and all survivors extend chase with exhaustion. I run stealth perks which often makes my chases end very fast. This is hard to quantify in chase times because the killer's time is still being wasted while they look for me, it's just not a visible metric like chase time. There's more than one way to play. The majority of people I play with don't use Exhaustion, and there's no way to know how much it's truly extending chases because it's not that simple.
I think many Exhaustion enjoyers also fail to recognize when those perks are bad for their team as a whole. If I'm killer and I'm approaching someone and they're slow-walking away, waiting to use their SB, I'm going to turn around and ignore them until two people are dead and I've got time to deal with that. Taking a target off your back puts it more squarely on others. Lithe has issues too. If I know someone is trying to get in position to Lithe, I'll often cut off the vault, or if I'm a ranged killer, predict the trajectory and down them. Sometimes efforts to extend chases actually just end them, one way or another.
I'm certainly not defending slowdown though. If I had it my way, I'd delete the top Exhaustion and slowdown perks from the game. I don't like either meta.
Seconded. Exhaustion and slowdown going wouldn't break my heart. Provided, of course, some kind of gen lock occurs to avoid 5 minute total-gen completions - in which case Killers reasons for running regression become invalid and we can all be happy.
Get the average match completion to 10 minutes or so, kill exhaustion speed perks, kill regression and gen locking. Or, that'd be my personal take on the goal anywho. -
@esarraf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4089640#Comment_4089640
… Right having access to a fully charged hatched all the time at a much faster rate is totally not great for zoning and being 115 movement speed also totally does not make it easier and less skill based than huntress. I don't think I'm capable of making an argument you like so hope you have a good day.
It's not a fully charged hatchet. It doesn't go as fast, doesn't go as far. Why are you comparing it to a fully charged hatchet? That's just erroneous. The only moderative values on charge time for hatchet are speed and distance.
As for 115 making him less skill based than huntress - My brother in the mist that's not what you #)%#%'ing said. You said his projectile was easier and better to zone with. Why are you changing the goalpost and bringing up haste now?
At least I agree with your last point. Good day. -
@Z0mbiv0r said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4089626#Comment_4089626
I'm not saying playing the killer is abuse, I'm saying most players are abusing his kit to tunnel early and easy. If any killer runs undetectable they're choosing to use one or more perk slots for that. BHVR is designing killers who are stronger and stronger, then need to be nerfed, while also making other previous killers pale in comparison.
I'm not saying 'destroy Jason', I'm saying he needs to be tweaked. For the entity's sake, some of you guys act like it's your life on the line.I mean, that's the rhythm Z0m. The killer is released too strong, people buy it, killer gets nerfed to adjustment levels, repeat. Power creep is a constant, ongoing, and developing situation that is well established and known. Why is this a surprise? Also, my brother in the mist, you do not get to backpedal with that 'You guys act like its your life on the line' minimization of other peoples opinions nonsense when you literally posted "Congrats on the most toxic killer ever designed" like this was your livejournal account.
You don't get to bring that 'zomg most toxic killer evarr' energy then get salty when people reciprocate it back at you. -
@esarraf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4089634#Comment_4089634
His wind up is a lot lower than huntress meaning it's easier to threaten survivors with it, compared to huntress which is a lot longer. Like, if you are actually a huntress main you should know how long it takes to get a fully charged hatchet, Jason just has that all the time.
As a Huntress main let me help inform you that most of my shots do not require a fully charged hatchet. You saying a fully charged hatchet takes longer than a spear throw is irrelevant. A fully charged hatchet serves different purposes than a fast-toss lobbing hatchet. You don't just get to pick the one that takes longer and say 'I will compare the spear to that one, because it's more convenient for my argument!'
I'm just asking if, like, you actually have an argument here because you should know your own points, to borrow the phrase from you. I'd also still like to know why you think it takes less skill, which you have not addressed since leaving your undeservedly snarky comment to the OP. -
@esarraf said:
skill based lol, his projectile is drastically easier to zone with than huntress or deathslinger it requires significantly low levels of skill to use that part of his power.
… Why? What are your arguments for this? As a huntress main who has played Jason and despises his M2 as being grossly inferior, I'm curious why you think his M2 is better at zoning, and requires 'significantly low levels of skill'? You used words like 'drastically' and 'significantly' but I'm not sure I understand.
His M2 is slower, has frame locks, and the projectile is slower than a hatchet. How is that low skill, and better than huntress? How does him throwing a spear make better zoning than Deathslinger whom on hit actually drags you through zones? -
@TheMruczek said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4089611#Comment_4089611
Yeah, unlike Spirit or Dracula he cannot just cancel it and hit you.
I don't understand where these people are coming from that are just acting like this is the first killer that can infinitely engage a mode or traversal means for information. Wraith, Xeno and the litany of stealth killers just seem to not exist when these conversations take place.
It's maddening.
Jason is literally at disadvantage for staying in OE longer, so why in the world are survivors barking up this tree about the duration on it? It's to the detriment of the killer to stay in OE.
But since I'm eating downvotes already I may as well commit.@Z0mbiv0r said:
So unlimited fast map traversal, tp, window block, no way to know where he's coming from, easier to tunnel, ranged attack easy to gain back…. Wow. It almost looks like you didn't know dirty players would abuse this
It's not 'abuse' to play the killer. The window block and tp both have counter play windows, you regularly 'don't know where the killer is coming from' if literally any killer runs anything with undetectable, it's not all that much easier to tunnel with jason, and his ranged attack isn't that great.
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First I'll say it's not going to happen. Second, I'll say that I wish it did.
I concur to some extent that Legion's power feels incomplete, though I myself would like to see a total ground-up rework of the kit and know that's not going to happen either, so may as well play along.
The reason this won't happen (just in my opinion mind you) is not because it's unrealistic or imbalanced - indeed I think the way you've present this is quite sensible. Haste after frenzy end which correlates to number of stabbings and is lost on the next stabbing is entirely sensible in the 'get the down' way and could solve for some of legions power crept kit portions.
The reason I say it won't happen is, flatly, because people hate Legion. Legion turns the game into mending simulator, and I am honestly convinced they will not receive a meaningful rework that does anything but remove their deep wound approach entirely. If they receive anything at all that is. -
@Z0mbiv0r said:
So you're fine with him having unlimited map traversal with no way to know where he's coming from?
Yes. Any other questions?
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@Jspect said:
Jason's animations aren't "bad" necessarily, but man you can just see the quality has gone down. If you compare it to a killer like Springtrap it's night and day. His walk, power, everything.
The killer animations have been great for a long time, so I'm really not sure what happened with Jason.His animations are bad. Flatly. The kick on gen and pallet has all the fluidity and ergonomics of a claymation animation from a 90's kids show. The Mori are cool in concept, but clearly got animated from the concept using an etch-a-sketch as a photoshop stand-in. He feels stiff and ungainly, and the fluidity he does present in motion comes off as uncanny valley. He moves as if he is intent to take on motion without the pre-supposition of how a human being moves and not in that cool creepy way.
His animations have the complexity of a Tamagotchi, his Mori's reflect thought was put into this but not executed, and the bizarre choice to try including out-of-nowhere intestines no-clipping out of the survivors in the mori's feels painfully jarring.
That being said, the animations are tanking out, yeah. -
@kiethuls said:
I think it's just another case of the devs choosing killer appeal over whats actually fun to play against.
His spear ability is fine but it can get a bit spammy which is just an rng thing but his teleport is just absurd and it's literally just skull merchant again just a game of chess until everyone dc or everyone gets killedBait aside:
No, his spear is not spammy. He has one, it has a lock animation and a slow animation. It's bugged on collision, doesn't pin when it should, and is an underpowered mess for the effort required to be put into it.
Jason/OE is nothing like skull merchant, and there is little RNG to do with it. He has a counter, use it.
And don't you dare drag Chess' good name into this. -
@cammoking123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4089565#Comment_4089565
What? Of course the duration matters. As long as the power is active Jason is either getting free information or survivors or crouch walking. Both great results for Jason.
He's getting information any other killer would get the same way - using his eyes and looking. No one objects to wraith's invisibility having infinite duration and he gathers more information than Jason does, as Jason depends on the cloud mechanic to visibly note anything in OE. Wraith just straight up sees you.
Jason in OE means he can't be kicking gens, chasing survivors, etc. Infinite duration is actually to your advantage as it makes Jason far more likely to hesitate and linger. If you add a duration, that means Jason will start spamming it and potentially finding people by accident by exiting OE and triggering KI and initiating a hunt immediately.
Infinite duration is to the benefit of survivors. But if you want to get rid of that, as a Killer Main, I am 100% happy to support your wish and deny that advantage. -
@coldflame said:
he has no ability to exert pressure in the form so it doesnt really matter how long it lasts
This. Its duration has little to do with the balance, as while the duration lasts, Jason is not actively performing his objectives. Why would duration particularly matter? I would say cooldown could maybe be larger, but duration being indefinite only makes sense to me.
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@random1543 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4089290#Comment_4089290
Dredge Killer instinct is only used in the nightfall phase of his power tho isn't it?
Correct!
@Cornil said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4089290#Comment_4089290
How is it "poor faith" if the point of my examples is that Jason doesn't need killer instinct on survivors hiding in lockers? They coded an exemption for crouching survivors, why not make it the same for hiding survivors? Also you're the one calling me names, claiming I have an "indignant vibe" is your interpretation of the text I typed. I was plainly stating, "you didn't read the post" (because what you said was off from my point), and I named the exact point I was making followed by "do you see the problem."
And as for my examples, I've never as xenomorph gotten killer instinct on someone in a locker from 16 meters away but I'll take your word for it.
That isn't what you said. I can't regard or respond to things you did not say. You didn't say he doesn't need killer instinct on survivors in lockers you said he doesn't deserve to be the only killer who does so. I gave examples as to how that is patently false. I'd invite you to test it as your leisure, but KI does trigger on locker bound individuals. I said it was poor faith because the examples you cited do not trigger KI.
The only name I called you was 'saucy minx' but go off queen.@random1543 said:
I feel like killer instinct part of the power needs to go I've said that since the Ptb. Kit is good enough on its own it don't need Killer instinct on survivors for tracking.
Yeah you can just crouch, but why get punished for using a game mechanic meant for stealth that is honestly under used.
Was looking at other killer instinct conditions most fall under different conditions (eg direct interactions with killer items or power, not passive for most)
The closest one is Xenomorph who has a counterplay in his power which is the turrets, hes not spawning on recourses and he comes in and out of a tunnel.
Jason on the other hand can stay in power pretty easily (every Jason I've versed has had no problem getting repeated spears) and he can spawn right next to you in a area that may only have the one recourse he spawned at and can basically can get a m1 by the time you know hes their because you have no time to get to anything, or spear you deeper into the dead zone. he does not need killer instinct on top of that.I wouldn't argue that. KI is a poorly built mechanism and it feels like an excuse to permit bypasses on killer generations. "I want X to see through Y" "But we can't do that, they have N aura blocker!" "Well, use the new fangled thing that let's them see them anyway!" etc. KI should really be decomissioned as it's just lazy building.
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@Cornil said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4089258#Comment_4089258
Clearly didn't even read the post. Hiding in lockers is an integral part of the game, the most valuable stealth mechanic for gambling throughout the match, and particularly at the end of the match. Why should Jason get killer instinct and make survivors scream in lockers of all killers? Why does he deserve that right to be the ONLY killer that does that, for free? Is it because his kit is too weak? Because it isn't weak. People would be complaining out of the wazoo if Doctor's static blast made survivors scream and be revealed in lockers, and his only ability is to make people scream. What if when Dracula teleported to a window in bat mode, then everyone in 16m including lockers got revealed? Springtrap exiting a door, Xenomorph exiting a tunnel, killer instinct on people in lockers half of your terror radius away. You see the problem yet?
I did read the post, and my statements stand, you saucy minx.
KI Pre-dates Jason, you weren't here decrying the war crime of KI before this. Jason is not the 'ONLY' as you all caps commented, killer who can do this. He hasn't been for a long, long time. Doctor's static blast is not a KI trigger, nor is Dracula's teleport, they are irrelevant examples. Spring Trap exiting a door isn't either. Those examples are all poor faith.
Xenomorph exiting a tunnel actually does do what you are talking about which is why I find it utterly hilarious that you used an example that does exactly what you said it doesn't do. You said 'people would be complaining out the wazoo' about it, but here we are. I can provide you instructions on how to backpedal if you would like.
I'll include below a list of other KI triggers so that you can add them to the list of things you are going to use to come at people on the internet with this weird indignant vibe you've cultivated. I've bolded the ones that are most likely to detect you in a locker.
Legion - Feral Frenzy on Hit (any survivor)
Demogorgon - Of the Abyss teleporting
Artist - Being within vicinity of flying crows
Onryou - Being fully condemned
Dredge - Anyone within X distance of a locker (how topical)
Xenomorph - Exiting a tunnel when a survivor is near (including in a locker)
Dracula - Performing a rushed action while Dracula is in wolf form (including rush entering a locker)
Ghost Face - Night Shroud Revealing
Pyramid Head - Any contact with torment trails
Twins - Any survs walking, running, or in the dying state around Victor
Nemesis - Use of Vaccine
Pinhead - Lament Configuration solving
Wesker - Use of Spray
Knight - Entering dying state from a guard
Skull Merchant - Being scanned while wearing a claw trap
Singulariy - Biopod removal
Lich - Being hit by dispelling sphere or downed by flight of the damned
Houndmaster - Anyone detected by dog in search mode -
I would argue that the information doesn't mean Jason always knows which gate a person is on: he still has to go to the gate, like any other killer, and see the survivor (in this case the red smoke.) The way it was phrased above made it sound as if he got some map wide indication. That being said however :
Sure. Botching is easy. He goes to throw a spear, winds up, you dodge the spear which is easy to do, hop back on the gate and open it. He cannot appear on top of you from OE, he has to appear from a vault/pallet point. Many maps have gates that are nowhere near vault/pallet points, and if you know you are facing Jason then you should also know to be picking one of those gates. Now he has to exit OE animation, about three seconds. You could cheekily have opened it to the E, avoiding lights, dodge to the side and wait according to your prediction, then hop back on and charge it up.
Optionally you could be running Dead-hard.
It takes 20 seconds to open a gate, standard. Assuming you opened to the E (7 seconds IIRC?) that means you need to buy 13 seconds on the door. Less, considering he's going to find you as you are working on the door and probably bought yourself another 4 to 5 seconds progress on it. Let's say you got 3 seconds progress, he found you fast - you need 10 seconds.
Pick a decent non vault/pallet gate, but we'll go with a rougher example of Gideon's. He has 3 seconds~ roughly to run to you, with a 1 second OE animation exit. You need to buy 6 seconds. Make sure to hop off the gate opening while he swings to hit you to avoid being yoinked. One injury state. 1 Second lost to attack, He enters 2 second swing cooldown. Now if you have dead hard, this is over, you win. If you don't you are going to need to 360 him to get the last pull on the door.
This scenario is assuming he finds you relatively quickly, of course, but he can find you faster or slower as the situation differs. The point I would express is that he can fail even in optimal conditions. If he misses one of these attacks to a 360, or misses a spear chuck he timed too early, or OE's to the wrong place, you are basically free. These are all botch conditions.
I'm not saying it's likely, but it's decently plausible to get away with considering most people write a 1:1 gate scenario off as a loss.
If it's really so much of a problem in the current Jason meta, just run with keys constantly and you have assured yourself escapes, no? -
@Blueberry said:
Why is this even a topic, you literally just crouch walk and the entire effect is negated, you don't even need a perk.
This. Seriously, why is this a discussion. KI would work in lockers, and scream working is irrelevant if you have KI on you anyway so why care. Crouching negates the entire ability. The counter-play is literally to just… crouch. No skill check, no difficulty, just… crouch. They made this really, really easy. Are we seriously claiming now that it's too much of an inconvenience to counter a killer power by hitting the CTRL key? Is this where we are now?
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@skill_issues said:
@NeverSolus
> Arguably it's easier to do with Hag and Trapper,
Hag and trapper can both have their traps disarmed and have low mobility to get across the map if they guess the wrong gate. Survivors cannot disarm jasons power, and he can easily reach the gates 100% of the time.
> but Huntress can proxy it
Sort of. Huntress can attempt to snipe, but a survivor can dodge. Plus gates might not be in view for huntress, depending on the spawn. Ive had many escapes against huntress as the last survivor with closed hatch, as Im sure most experienced players have.
> Springtrap can pop doors
Doors are random and not guaranteed to be near gates. I do agree that Springtrap is very difficult to escape against, but I wouldnt say its 100% guaranteed like Omnipresent evil is.
> Artist can Raven shot it
Artist is actually a great example of a killer where the escape condition is very fair. Survivors can dodge the ravens or wait them out, and artist can obviously miss. The only way Jason isnt getting you on a gate as the last survivor is if he is AFK
> Wraith can do very similar to Jason permanently
I dont know what you mean here? Wraith still has to manually traverse to the gates, which a survivor can escape against if theyre smart and lucky.
> Doctor can shock spam
How is this relevant? Doctor's shock blast has a limited range with a very long cooldown. Not sure what youre getting at here?
> Plague can vomit on the door handle
This does not at all prevent survivors from escaping, and the plague would still have to visit both gates. This is, again, a very escapable scenario.
> demo can tele
I dont believe Demogorgon can tell which gate youre on, plus the survivor can clear the portal
> Xeno can tunnel
There is no guarantee the tunnels are near the gates, and xeno doesnt know which gate youre opening like Jason does> If you hit 1v1 the standard is pretty much hatch or assume death.
My point about endgame jason is that unlike every other killer that you mentioned above, survivors cannot stand a chance. Against every other killer, the survivor at least has a low chance of escaping.> Jason doesn't get 'more information' as you insinuate, he gets less. He sees
lesswhen in Omnipresent Evil.
I dont understand this — have you played Jason or watched gameplay? Simply reading the Omnipresent Evil description will explain how it provides info.Man, it's gonna be one of these. Please bare in mind I'm not trying to come off as aggressive but it's a bit hard to stop myself given some of the sass you delivered at the end there.
> Arguably it's easier to do with Hag and Trapper,
Hag and trapper can both have their traps disarmed and have low mobility to get across the map if they guess the wrong gate. Survivors cannot disarm jasons power, and he can easily reach the gates 100% of the time.
Yes, but they also give away position when they do. Once the killer knows where you are in 1:1 door-off, that's all she wrote.
> but Huntress can proxy it
Sort of. Huntress can attempt to snipe, but a survivor can dodge. Plus gates might not be in view for huntress, depending on the spawn. Ive had many escapes against huntress as the last survivor with closed hatch, as Im sure most experienced players have.
This does not address your statement. Huntress can down you at the door, just as Jason can. There is no 100% escape failure because Jason exists, Jason too can botch the play. It's not suddenly less or more valid because a killer can botch or miss. Both can botch.
> Springtrap can pop doors
Doors are random and not guaranteed to be near gates. I do agree that Springtrap is very difficult to escape against, but I wouldnt say its 100% guaranteed like Omnipresent evil is.
Again, I don't think OE is 100%. You've made that claim but not presented evidence to the effect. Jason can botch like anyone else can.
> Artist can Raven shot it
Artist is actually a great example of a killer where the escape condition is very fair. Survivors can dodge the ravens or wait them out, and artist can obviously miss. The only way Jason isnt getting you on a gate as the last survivor is if he is AFK
Jason can miss. Jason can botch it. Jason also has to exit OE at a vault or pallet point, meaning you can deliberately pick a gate that has none nearby. You are not suddenly crippled from agency in the end-game, you can still make advantageous choices to maximize your success and he can still fail. It's not as though you touch the gate door and he instantly gibs you.
> Wraith can do very similar to Jason permanently
I dont know what you mean here? Wraith still has to manually traverse to the gates, which a survivor can escape against if theyre smart and lucky.
Am I misunderstanding? Jason also has to traverse. Both have haste. Both have infinite duration on their haste/stealth ability to get to and from the gates. That's the point I'm expressing.
> Doctor can shock spam
How is this relevant? Doctor's shock blast has a limited range with a very long cooldown. Not sure what youre getting at here?
My point is that the broad AOE shock can give you away, and once Doctor locates you at gate (because the AOE shock told him which one you were at) he can shock spam you to prevent you from opening it at all. It's a more assured death than Jason.
> Plague can vomit on the door handle
This does not at all prevent survivors from escaping, and the plague would still have to visit both gates. This is, again, a very escapable scenario.
Plague vomiting on one gate handle and camping the other means she can watch the HUD. The moment the survivor is infected, she knows where they are. Once the killer knows where the surv is in 1:1 end game, that's normally the end.
> Xeno can tunnel
There is no guarantee the tunnels are near the gates, and xeno doesnt know which gate youre opening like Jason does
Jason doesn't instantly know, you know that right? He has to run to the gate like anyone else. Xeno can tunnel speed it, which is why I brought Xeno up. Both are ultimately just running gate to gate looking for evidence of the surv. Xeno knows which gate you are at the exact same way Jason does - by seeing you at it.> If you hit 1v1 the standard is pretty much hatch or assume death.
My point about endgame jason is that unlike every other killer that you mentioned above, survivorscannotstand a chance. Against every other killer, the survivor at least has alowchance of escaping.
That's a falsehood. He can botch. Survs can key the hatch. Survs may have gate speed perks. There are a dozen ways survs can handle this. You keep saying it's a 100% doomed scenario with Jason but I see absolutely no reason to collude with that assertation.> Jason doesn't get 'more information' as you insinuate, he gets less. He sees
lesswhen in Omnipresent Evil.
I dont understand this — have you played Jason or watched gameplay? Simply reading the Omnipresent Evil description will explain how it provides info.
I have played 21 games as Jason to date. Thank you for pointing out I can read the description, I appreciate your assistance. I recognize how it provides info. Please share with me why you think Jason gets more information in OE, than any other killer gets while not in OE. -
@MechWarrior3 said:
I wouldn't say Huntress, SpringTrap, Vecna and Deathslinger get guaranteed 1st hits.
Agreed. Saying that is a bit hyperbolic.
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@CrimsonMothKing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4089025#Comment_4089025
For his hook spikes, the hooks are only disabled for 30 seconds, and refresh instantly when he uses OE.
The only thing that counters his aura in OE is crouching/crouch walking, no perks affect it like other killer powers.
Playing stealth does help against him, but all he has to do is guess and tp to get a 16m killer instinct.
When activating OE he can tp almost instantly instead of having to wait for his Husk to disappear.
He has clear timings where survivors can make attempts to counter him, but he has equally short windows where he himself can be more reactive.
I still don't believe he should have the haste, and he wouldn't be dead without it.
For his hook spikes, the hooks are only disabled for 30 seconds, and refresh instantly when he uses OE.
30 seconds is a long time in gen progress terms. If a Jason slugs you under a hook and waits like that, that's more time than any other killer would have to spend hooking someone. That's a base-kit disadvantage, which is what I was suggesting it to be.The only thing that counters his aura in OE is crouching/crouch walking, no perks affect it like other killer powers.
So? No perk blocks Plague's vomit. No perk blocks Xeno seeing your footsteps in tunnels. No perk blocks legion turning you into a mending simulator. I'm not sure how there not being a perk instant-counter is an argument, no offense. There shouldn't be perks that fully shut down a killer power. What would be the point of playing that killer if there were?Playing stealth does help against him, but all he has to do is guess and tp to get a 16m killer instinct.
Crouching disables the KI trigger. It has a built-in counter, as I said. 'He can guess and may get me' is not a solid reason to be advocating for nerfing something. 'He can guess' could be used as an excuse to nerf Huntress orbitals. I get what you mean that it's rough, but that doesn't make it invalid.When activating OE he can tp almost instantly instead of having to wait for his Husk to disappear.
No, he can't. There's an animation delay. This is what I mean when I say you can use Knight counter-play against him. Once he triggers OE he can't see you, and you have a solid 2 seconds to GTFO when he cannot detect you. If you have stealth perks you may be able to flat-out disappear like a fart in the wind. He has to animation delay into OE, then he has to trigger it and trigger the animation delay on coming out of OE. If you can't turn 4 seconds into a new loop, that's not a Jason's kit issue.
Respectfully, of course. I just don't see the point here. All of the things you have listed as issues are not exacerbations of haste, so why are we focusing on the haste? If he were a 4.4 m/s flat, his OE would be worthless. He could initiate a mid-chase and then proceed to the looping of most 4.4 m/s which is an unbearable experience no one would want to suffer.
That being the case I'm happy to agree to disagree. I think the haste being removed would kill him outright short of sizable buffs in other departments, which would potentially make him a lot more of a problem. And I'm saying that as someone that doesn't even like OE and wishes his spear chucking was more of a factor. -
The duration isn't really an issue. There are plenty of killers that can 'camp' or disable gate access in the way you are describing. Arguably it's easier to do with Hag and Trapper, but Huntress can proxy it, Springtrap can pop doors, Artist can Raven shot it, Wraith can do very similar to Jason permanently, Doctor can shock spam, Plague can vomit on the door handle, demo can tele, Xeno can tunnel, and so on.
Killer abilities being effective in a 1v1 scenario with the door is not even remotely uncommon. If you hit 1v1 the standard is pretty much hatch or assume death.
As to the rest of it, I think you're being more than a little disingenuous. Wraith does have movement speed and unlimited duration but Jason doesn't get 'more information' as you insinuate, he gets less. He sees less when in Omnipresent Evil. Omnipresent Evil does not instantly tell Jason where survivors are as you also insinuate.
Jason can infinitely sit in his power, which means he can infinitely not be stopping survs from being on gens. How is that a game-breaking balance choice? -
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4089065#Comment_4089065
I'm not sure I'd agree that pallet breaking is in and of itself a punishing trigger, it's a part of normal gameplay.
There are pallets that must be broken for the chase to continue, and a lot more that you're going to want to break to make a hit easier. That on its own isn't too egregious in my opinion.
It's also worth considering what the break points for perk value are, not just the perk's whole value. Zooming out from any of the perk's specifics, this gives you a percentage of Haste for thirteen seconds. To me, the minimum number for that being noticeable would be 5%, and the minimum number for that being good would be 8%.
Looking back at the perk's specifics, this is a bit different if it activates from a stun because part of the duration is eaten into by the stun itself, but nothing about being blinded would change those numbers, which is why I consider this mostly an anti-flashlight perk.Right now, getting to those break points is miserable, eight pallets is a lot. At double token generation speed, though, you only have to break four, and it's not impossible for that to be your first chase if you're unlucky. More typically, especially as more of an M1 killer (who are more likely to use this anyway), it's probably your second or third.
Two tokens per pallet break would mean survivors who like to blind you at pallets or windows are way more likely to get taken off guard and smacked when you speed after them because it'll happen way sooner.
Though, I didn't mention this in my first post, I'd also like if it granted its tokens at the START of the break animation, not the end, so those same survivors blinding you means you actually get to benefit straight away.You're right that Shadowborn already does this and people already don't bring it, though, so I wouldn't oppose a full rework. I just think this perk can be made "decent enough" with that one small change.
Only commenting to say fair points, well argued. I didn't properly represent the transitional values.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4089075#Comment_4089075
Totally agree with your points.
What if we also made you gain tokens from gen kicks as well? You'd reach max tokens significantly faster while also triggering on gen kicks. That seems reasonable. Making the haste more would be abusable at loops.
That's an interesting idea actually. Maybe if the trigger was gen kicking, and the tokens increased with gen kicking, I could see that working out meaningfully well. It's not an ideal perk, but it would certainly be in keeping with the pace of the game. The more you kick the gens, the more haste kicking gens gives you. 13% for 13 Seconds at max for kicking gens seems fine to me.
Mind you I'd never run it, but it does seem much better to me. -
@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4089065#Comment_4089065
I'm pretty much with you on these points.
Scared to Death remove the hex component and it's fine.
Rampage is trash I agree. It's trigger chances being completely up to the survivors is what ruins it imo. Once they see it trigger a single time, they will never activate it again. Imo keep everything else the same, but make it also trigger on gen kicks so you can control some activation. This seems conservative as I could definitely understand giving it even more.
I like the idea of 'on gen kick' but 'on gen kick' doesn't justify it enough to me. That's just too much work to get value out of my perk. I have 4 slots, I'm going to pick things that deliver consistently, not things that have the chance to maybe deliver if I perform bonus side-objectives and frolic through the daisies in a counter-clock-wise circle for precisely seven seconds, ya'know?
I have nothing against perks having bonus conditionals and triggers, but if they do then they need to be consistently and meaningfully stronger than their counterparts. For instance if Ruin says Gens not being worked on regress at 150%, then an 'activated' perk version that say, only triggers on hooking a survivor, would need to regress meaningfully more, as it required a trigger. So that would put it at say, 300% Regression speed or so.
Outside of that both myself, and many many killer mains, are just going to take the perks that don't require jumping through hoops to perform.
Then again, I main huntress, so I'm kind of attracted to the simplicity of Shadowborn over "Rampage."
For the record, "Rampage"? Really? What about this perk seems like a rampage? I kick a bunch of wood to splinters then get zoomies when someone blinds me with a flashlight? That's not a 'rampage' that's meth. -
Jester is right in that they aren't far off from being good, theoretically.
Silent Shadow - Leave as is. I suspect we're going to see a Silent Shadow + NOED explosion. Either completely rework it, or leave it alone. I suspect a total rework will be in order to prevent an unhealthy end-game meta. Just triggering on gen completion and removing the final gen progress would make it sub par unless the duration went up to 30 seconds or so.
Scared to Death - Either remove the hex part of it entirely, or reduce trigger requirements. It's a perk that can be broken, and likely will be broken, so it should be starting from the first hook. Otherwise no one will bring it, as there's a huge chance for it to be cleansed before it ever adds value at all.
Rampage - I disagree with Jester here, respectfully. This is garbage. Charging tokens by breaking pallets is punishing in and of itself given the time sink involved - and it generates tokens far, far too slowly. Last I checked it takes 2.34 seconds to break a pallet. Factoring five seconds to move between pallets, that's 95.4 seconds of nonstop pallet breaking, doing nothing else, to fully charge this perk. That's enough time for up to four generators to be completed in standard settings, and more likely two on average. So to translate this in time as a resource, I sacrifice one of my four perk slots to lose two generators before this perk comes online. Then it requires me to be stunned by a pallet (of which very few are left now because I broke 13), or be flashlighted (which I should just be looking away and avoiding), to get 13 seconds of 13% haste.
So I have to build tokens, which requires survivor interaction to begin with in throwing pallets, and then I get the privilege of getting haste if I let them blind me? AND they can just counter it by having champion of light? Shadowborn gives 10% haste for 10 seconds right out of the gate with no pallet breaking requirements, making it immensely easier to use, and it's still considered a bad perk.
No. Rampage is just bad. Max haste per token should be [2*TOKEN]%, and duration should be lowered to 9 seconds. Give me 26% haste for 9 seconds (three seconds of which is lost to, you know, being blinded) and we'll talk. Otherwise either get rid of the pallet breaking requirement entirely, or skyrocket the value from the trigger. Outside of that it needs outside interaction buffs to be even remotely plausible. -
I mean… okay? If you are presenting that idea, go off queen? I'd take carte blanche permission to slug in exchange for carte blanche permission for survs to t-bag. They t-bag anyway, so I really have nothing to lose here.
I will say this is a bizarre argument and feels a little like a reach in attempt to appeal to some kind of knee-jerk crowd reaction however. Slugging should ideally happen seldom, and t-bagging should be the same. Tying one to the other as a balancing act on some pedestal of ethics is certainly a choice. But go off I guess. -
Contrary to what you said, OP, this would actually create a massive increase in queue time, not a small one. It would also categorically destroy DbD's presence on streaming services - which, while I will be the first to say #)*%% streamers and their effects on the game, it would hurt everyone in the long run as awareness would decrease.
Increasing the queue time of just the 4 man banning Ghoul, Nurse, Blight, Hillbilly (for example), does not just increase their queue time. It enters them into the queue, and the queue attempts backfills and re-prioritizations according to how long someone has been in the queue. What this means in effect is that the queue will start balancing a huge number of SWF parties with differing selections of 'no encounter' characters, and it will bog down the backfill system.
Additionally, and more critically I feel, two other effects would result from this change.
First, this means SWF's would end up bullying (potentially) non-S tier killers and only non-S tier killers, which are the killers already least well equipped to deal with SWF's. You would butcher the play rate of anyone who wasn't S-tier overnight as a swarm of the poor low MMR Trappers and the like would get buried by a deluge of SWF's.
Second, let's say we did this. Let's say it goes active. Now we have a new problem. SWF A says 'We ban Ghoul, Billy, Nurse, Blight.' Easy enough. SWF B however has someone with emetophobia. They have to ban Plague. So they ban Ghoul, Bully, Nurse, Plague. Now SWF B is being punished and is more likely to face a Blight, which is far far more common to encounter than a plague to begin with, just because someone in the group had a phobia. This creates an instance in which groups are penalized for having the very legitimate core reason to use the functionality. The people who need to use it get punished, whereas the people who want to use it get rewarded.
This is invalid, and I cannot think of a single good thing that could come of this. Easier to change the 'problem children.' Or more over, remember that this is an 18+ horror game, and that inherently means queueing into some unpleasant things. If you have a legitimate phobia, it's considered common practice to avoid things that include the triggers of your phobia. It's not considered normal to show up to said things and demand they stop including those things to suit your pallette. -
I don't see a problem with this, as (above mentioned) crouching prevents it.
Killer A makes you Scream → You run anti scream perks.
Killer B makes you Scream Past Anti-Scream Perks → You crouch.
There's counter play, so it's fine. We see this kind of design philosophy all over the game. Perk cancelling is common. I can run nurses calling, Deerstalker, Lethal Pursuer, and Murmur and you can counter-act every one of my perks with a single elusive instance. Perks counting perks is common, and kit counting perks is common. This is a nothing burger.
Granted I agree that it's stupid that perks can be cancelled, but this isn't the first or even the first dozenth example of that. If we have a problem with perks being overwritten, then there's an entire laundry list of nonsense that needs to be fixed on both sides such as Elusive shouldn't exist. -
@CrimsonMothKing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4088690#Comment_4088690
But doesn't "just use meta" or "just gen rush" sound like such a boring way to play against a killer? All I am saying is that with all the options he has in his kit, having him be 115% technically instead of having him be 110% is counterintuitive.
If I play survivor, I want to be chased/hunted. I want to feel like if I play well I can escape. But him having this haste gives him a way to play around his natural weakness with little input.
I don't know about this.
People keep referring to Jason as a 'ranged' killer justifying his 4.4, as if his isolation to 4.4 is the primary tool of his kit revolving around the ranged. But his 'ranged' facet is weakest, and frankly among ranged killers has one of the weakest applications. He's not a 'ranged' killed with a speedy teleport. He's an M1 with a single ranged utility. In this sense I don't see problem with his haste on OE, as it brings him to a competitive place and inherently punishes anyone who wants to run haste/hindered perks on him. Additionally the pallet/vault animation slow down helps to balance the rush.
I think his primary weakness isn't his 4.4 nature. If he was flatly 4.4, I think Jason would be dead in the water and would accept few arguments on the matter - his ranged capabilities are simply too crippled to justify it. Removing the haste wouldn't be 'correcting' for his weakness, it would be destroying what capability he has.
I think his real weakness is just the current, boring meta of gen-rushing. Which yes, whole-heartedly I agree is boring. But once Jason engages, all you need to do is stealth around him, spread out, and stick to gens. His power is poor at picking up on stealth, and the perks for survivors including things like elusive just become more and more relevant to counter-act him.
Jason can rush around all he wants, but whether he is 4.4 or 4.6 doesn't matter overly much when a loop is still a loop to him. His anti-loop is weak, leaving him only with the ability to spam OE: and any survivor who wants to counter him will learn to recognize when he activates OE and goes 'blind', and will use that window of time to break to a new loop and potentially stealth out. He's not dissimilar to knight in his counter-play.
Recognize when he's activating OE to disengage or try to get a drop on you in loop, and GTFO. He has little counter for this. His spear chuck is no real threat when the animation lock means you can dodge at the last moment fairly easily. If you play with your 'back' to an open area, you can even trick him into giving you more distance and eat the spear to use the push away to escape.
His counter is largely, imo, pre-baked into his kit. Just keep looping/running/stealthing while your other survs stick to gens. If he's a particularly resourceful Jason he's going to pull a hook as ammo and you can elect to go down under that hook, disabling him from any easy hook and opening him up for saves. -
Cogs is correct here. The problem isn't killer back-fill. Last I heard any backfill at all, and any filling that occurs after X period in queue prioritization, steps outside of MMR to do anything to fill the slot and keep the queues moving.
That would mean it occurs from backfill, but also occurs whenever the queue times are higher than X in bandwidth, causing flood-filling to bypass MMR. MMR is borked, but it's borked for more reasons than 'Killers lobby dodging.' -
Counter his killer instinct by crouching. Counter his haste by having SB, lithe, or the standard load-out. Counter his spear by dodging, he can't change the aim in the last good bit of the animation. Spread out. Gen rush. Win.
He's not that different to face than other killers. If you are bothered by the haste just champion of light him or pallet him. His spear is limited enough, so you only need to dodge one toss per reload. He's B tier. He'd be A- if he didn't already inflict hindered and have a 5% haste, which locks him out of hindered/haste perks without getting hit by the DR wiffleball bat. -
He's Meh. Spear is pointless, pins are inconsistent at best and when they do land it's on injured folks, which is pointless flavoring. So playing for pins is bleh. Omnipresent evil is the only staple holding him together with his current kit, but I foresee that being nerfed into the ground as a great deal of folks seem to despise it.
His spears wouldn't be so awful if you could twitch aim them, but you can't aim for the last bit of his animation, making his spears easier to dodge and harder to aim. As a huntress player it's really punishing me for developing the skillset.
I do like making survivor wall art tho.
His perks are, yeah, absolutely worthless but his kit is good enough to be a B tier. -
@TropesDaMan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4086781#Comment_4086781
cue queen moment "I WANT TO BREAK FREE"
Exactly what I thought. +1
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
PERK: It's My Turn:
Whenever you didn't look around while receiving a skill-check, any failed skill-check turns into a Good skill-check instead and you receive a token.
After receiving 5 tokens, once per match, while running within 8 meters of a chased survivor, press the active ability button to swap all hook stages if they have more hook stages then you. You become the obsession
EXPLANATION:
The first part is just a lifesaver for people who play with friends, and want to be able to chat on discord while doing gens. Making it a lot more fun in general. When you are chatting, you are not moving your camera, so if a skill-check triggers while you're typing, it will turn into a good skill-check instead and add a token.
The second part of course pairs well with playing with friends. It allows you to transfer hook stages to help out in matches where the "weakest link" is getting tunnelled, allowing more players to express their skills before the match is over.
This overall creates a perfect perk for people who are playing with friends.
The token system ensures that the player that wants to use the ability needs to have spent at least a decent time doing objectives and cannot have just been goofing around.
Unlike strong perks like Shoulder The Burden, that can create an entirely extra chase + struggle phase (which is very strong), this perk merely swaps the hook stages to another person who is also close to the killer, keeping the survivor close to death as always, if death-hook, and in the best case scenario adds 1 extra health-stage before the killer can claim their first kill, if the ability is used when the death-hook survivor is injured and the ability user is still full health.You can't be real. This can't be real. But on the off chance you are serious, I'll regard it as serious. If you're a troll, golf claps.
Three things :
1) This perk rewards not playing, as other people have indicated. As your counter-arguments indicate that's the point of some perks, but not when -
2) This perk also rewards for failure. So not paying attention and failing a mechanic rewards with the bamboozles for the sake of SWF's. That's what you're recommending here, a SWF perk that will be next to useless for SoloQ when BHVR is trying to fix SoloQ experiences. This would just be another perk in the pile that Killers would point to as reasoning when they slug. I wouldn't blame them either - as you'd be doing the same thing while slugged that you'd be doing if working a gen, that is to say interacting with the game as little as possible.
3) "The token system ensures that the player that wants to use the ability needs to have spent at least a decent time doing objectives and cannot have just been goofing around." No. No it does not. The entire point of the perk is that they are goofing around to activate the tokens. The tokens do not ensure it anymore than the existence of playing hooky ensures a high grade.
But I can see I will not sway you on this topic already, so I will focus instead of something I may be able to offer you for future growth opportunities -
"Very HIGHLY Anticipated Perk Idea"
You don't need 'very' and 'highly', they both emphasize the same target word. In addition to that, for something to be 'highly anticipated' means large swathes of people are looking forward to its release. Your OC perk (plzdonotsteal) being posted to the forums for discussion is great, but it's not 'Highly Anticipated' anymore than someone catching themselves when they trip is 'highly anticipated.'
Structure aside the word choice is self-defeating. You're presenting an idea you created presumably as of recent, which doubly means it cannot be 'very highly anticipated' in any context, because if it were you would not be presenting or sharing an idea, you'd be talking about the thing everyone is already talking about.
EDIT: Also stop capitalizing words for emphasis when the emphasis isn't necessary. -
Killer is in a terrible spot, except for where it isn't. The A+ tier killers are mostly fine. Everything else is so painful it feels like I should get a 401K for queueing into it.
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No.
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@Lexilogo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4084964#Comment_4084964
There is a miserable valley between skill complexity and results in this
game. It's not as easy to fix as a few buffs, but there's absolutely no
reason that Killer X should put in multiple times the effort only to
get the exact same result - that's the entire principle of 'Balance.' If
you put in X1, you should get Y1 out of the machine.If a killer takes X5 effort, they should get out Y5 result. If they put
in X5 effort and get out Y1 result, then your balancing is flatly wrong.This sounds like a sensible balancing idea on the surface, but if you actually want to accomplish it, you either need to make peace with only the high complexity Killers being good, or you need to make all Killers use/capable of roughly the same complexity level.
This is ultimately just part of how "technical" character archetypes in videogames need to work. You need to assume their mains will put up with the high level of complexity and balance around that, in the same game as characters who are fundamentally less complex and still need to be viable. If anything, you can assume that high complexity, even if the reward ratio for the learning is worse, will be part of the appeal for their mains, who will always be a relative minority in the playerbase.
And in general, trying to balance the game around "I can't be bothered to put effort in" is not going to end well.
Not saying there aren't ways to make the high complexity characters more appealing, but Singularity cannot keep his identity while chasing the target audience of people who just want an easy, strong Killer after a long workday like Ghoul. At some point you have to make peace with that
You're absolutely right.
I know I came off as suggesting that the end result of an X5 Y5 is the desired result but you did nail the idea that it would just create a scenario in which playing an X1 would become obsolete. That's very much part of the problem. I also agree that characters like Lary cannot hold their identity and be aligned to the lowest common denominator.
I don't really have an answer in the end of this. Mathematically it has to be more rewarding to play X to Y if you want the character to exist (sparing Mains as you mentioned) but I think that kind of is the problem. The community wants more variety, but the way things have been balanced reduce to the idea of if you do see a Twins player, you get terrified because they are likely a 2000 Hour monster on Twins. Same for Lary. It turns the idea of pleasant variety into a psy-op and flips the entire system on its head.
We want variety, but we really do not want to be in that situation. Equally we want decent balancing, but the more we try to pressure BHVR to balance perks and killers alike the more we see them use the crutch tactic of over-homogenization as other studios do. Not because they want to but because that's far, far easier to do than to try balancing a game with this many options and perks.
I digress. Point it, you are right Lexi - but I do feel there's still a point of comfortable balance between "Balance for fun" and "Balance for output" That we have to strike for overall cycle health. -
My favorite streamer story comes from a round where I kept getting lucky shots. If you play Huntress at all you know the feeling, it was one of those rounds where I just kept landing the trick shots. As a result I leaned into it to have some fun, and didn't really pursue the 4K at all. Just trick shot after trick shot. Lob over the rock here, orbital there, throw through the TL vaults to the other side, etc etc.
Now mind you, this meant I was landing hatchet throws so often that I had to reload more than usual, so I did, which inevitably meant they kept getting people that I downed up while I was reloading. I simply did not have time to get to the place I orbitaled someone into knock-down and also reload, and frankly speaking they kept getting them off the ground so fast that I didn't think to try. I was having fun lobbing axes, and never had more than one person 'slugged' from this approach at a time.
End of match comes, all four escape alive, but they do so as I am lobbing hatchets into the exit gate from a good 40 meters away. I down three of them and they crawl out. One stays behind to give the tea bagging and taunting that I'd expect. Otherwise I thought it had been a fun, goofy round.
In EGC the entire fourstack exploded. "Hacking and can't even get a kill", "slugging is pathetic", "Always knew where we were huh? Sure." They ensured me they were reporting me and also ensured me they had and would continue to give fantastic physical support to my mother so to speak.
I was baffled. Running an aura build on Huntress and them getting a 4E wasn't enough, they found other reasons to blow me up and leave nasty comments on my profile.
I didn't even get offended, I still laugh thinking about it.