NeverSolus
NeverSolus
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Kaneki isn't bad at all in my opinion. I think the bulk of the problem is that his counter-play is just unenjoyable, he has a high skill ceiling, and he's a mobility killer. In the current meta where-in the bulk of the macro plays revolve around the low mobility of a killer and their motion, mobility characters look stronger than they are ; because they inherently counter the meta.
He's not terribly fun to go up against, mind you, and I won't claim otherwise. But overall I don't see any problems with Kaneki. I see problems with the meta, rather than the killers who are strong in it. Correct the killers and the meta will still be the problem, but give the meta a legitimate shake-up and people would likely find themselves having much less problem with Kaneki.
By example (extreme and unreasonable example, but for arguments sake) in a 'King of the hill' mechanical type meta or event Trapper would inherently become alot stronger and people would complain more about him being OP, whereas Kaneki would be average. In a status effect meta Plague would look like a monster. -
I'd agree here. There is a miserable valley between skill complexity and results in this game. It's not as easy to fix as a few buffs, but there's absolutely no reason that Killer X should put in multiple times the effort only to get the exact same result - that's the entire principle of 'Balance.' If you put in X1, you should get Y1 out of the machine.
If a killer takes X5 effort, they should get out Y5 result. If they put in X5 effort and get out Y1 result, then your balancing is flatly wrong. This is, wittingly or not, exactly what survivors complain about with ghoul. He requires X1 effort (in most cases) but provides Y2 result and they reasonably dislike that. Equally counterplays are similar. If a survivor puts X1 effort into a counterplay they should see Y1 result. X5 effort and Y1 result (as with Singularity) on counterplay would be deemed universally unacceptable and imbalanced.
Put another way, if survivors had to put five times the effort into killer counter play, they'd be upset and understandably so when they saw the exact same, standard result. When this is the case people call for nerfs, and again this is understandable. The same logic should be presented for the killer, adjusted for asym of course.
Nurse players have to put in 5X Effort (high skill), and get a 5X Result, and people hate it but understand that a Nurse putting in X1 is going to get less out of it on the return to the point that low MMR Nurse is a meme. No one complains about the Nurse who is bad, they only complain about the Nurses who aren't. This tells me, by example, Nurse is not imbalanced but instead has a strong showing at high skill expression and the survivor counter-play should be addressed to make sure X1=Y1, so to speak.
Singularity is the same. He's too easy to counter en masse, requires setup, requires tactical thinking, requires map knowledge and predictive modeling. The end result of all that is still a result that is underwhelmingly similar to what any other killer could get for landing an M2.
It's just disappointing, I suppose. I like Lary alot but the high intensity of his cycle does not reward appropriately so I skip him in favor of better X1=Y1 killers like Dracula. I main Huntress who is screwy, but she's about as far down the negative slope as I'm willing to go most days. -
As a Huntress main I'm torn on this. I agree that 4.4 is a bit much given I have to play with 4.4 as well as an additional slowdown on M2 use, when it feels like it should be one or the other. Additionally, I hate that playing a 4.4 in a game in which looping has become staple meta is comparable to ripping out toenails and calling it enjoyment.
That said, I'm not sure how I feel about this. I do think Huntress needs some adjustments upward as alot of killers do in line of how much haste and loop meta has been pushed, but I don't know if 4.6 is the answer honestly.
Huntress, Slinger, and Hag all suffer from fundamental core issues representative of the age of their designs. 4.6 won't actually 'fix' them, but I"m also utterly terrified to see BHVR so much as fart in the direction of Huntress after seeing what they did to Trickster and Myers. Chucky I understand the 4.4 because the looping meta is complicated by his difficulty of visibility. Trickster was just a mistake and they will see his playrate tank over time as a result.
But 4.6 feels almost unnecessary, in part because I think it would create a tidal wave of survivor's saying things like 'You got a buff shut up' if someone discusses the hitbox nonsense with Slinger and Huntress, or the ease of removing hag traps. So I suppose it depends on a mixture of things? -
Just… Just break line of sight? Bloodlust is absurdly weak due to a single LOS break making the buff disappear. In addition to that it has a rev up time, and it is buggy in its activation condition to begin with. I regularly don't see bloodlust even tick on during a loop due to buggy map meshing creating invisible LOS breakers.
But to engage with your problems directly :1. it rewards killers who make (relatively) bad decisions with up to 15% haste (like, imagine giving survivors who miss skill checks a 10% repair boost for each time they've missed a skillcheck the past 30 seconds)
This is apples to oranges. Bloodlust is there to incentivize the killer to take a chase and hold it. But in its current state it hardly does that. That isn't comparable to giving survivors a gen repair boost for missing skill checks. Bloodlust is there to help close distance in a chase, which by definition starts with distance. If anything it 'rewards' the killer for interacting with a survivor in a chase.
2. it doesnt reset when killers miss an attack (so, they get rewarded even more)
I don't follow: Why would missing an attack and not being punished by losing bloodlust be a reward? Hitting you has nothing to do with bloodlust, why is the comparison to this being drawn? How does X have to do with Y? Just break line of sight, which you're going to naturally try to do anyway in a chase. By your logic, survivors are rewarded to failure to hide with the LOS break making bloodlust drop.3. its something that can activate when tunnelling
Everything in the base kit can activate when tunnelling. Hooking can activate while tunneling. Bloodlust can activate while tunneling. M1 and M2 abilities can activate while tunnelling. Again, X does not have to do with Y, why are you drawing this connection?
Honestly the way this reads sounds more as though you have an issue with killers tunnelling, which is a valid opinion but nuking core mechanics is (imo) not the way to try addressing that. -
@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4084825#Comment_4084825
Therefore, nerf Sprint Burst.
I didn't say nerf. I think it should be changed. It's got no activation requirements and with Vigil it's way too available through the match. If anything needs a nerf, it's Vigil. I also said if we have a meta shakeup. It shouldn't be changed in a vacuum. If I had it my way, the 10 most popular perks for both roles would be deleted from the game.
If you want to argue SB as an anti-tunnel option, then it could have a brief period of being lengtier haste after you're unhooked, but some other downside every other time.
The issue is not with Sprint Burst or Pre-running. It's with the ability of survivors to protect themselves or teammates from being tunnelled being completely insubstantial, and most of them countered simply by tunnelling even more aggressively
This isn't really true though. You just have to be cautious with unhooks. That's how you protect teammates. If the killer isn't in chase with anyone, I don't unhook. If possible, I generally wait by the hook until another person is in chase (and preferably injured) and the TR is fully away. Killers come back to the hook when options aren't as viable. This is just a fact. Accept it or don't.
Anything that protects someone from being tunneled can simultaneously be seen as an indirect encouragement to tunnel someone else.
Again, not even remotely what I'm saying. If I keep seeing walking SBers staring at me, waiting to run away when I get closer, they're not getting tunneled. They're not even getting hooked. I'm ignoring them until two other people are dead. And they would never think to blame their own actions, despite seeing me ignore them multiple times. No, its just a villainous tunneler. Can't possibly be shared responsibility.
This. A thousand times this. The 'Stares at you, gets away, accuses of tunneling.' Every damn time.
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Xeno. I know some people swear by them, but they are just a worse Nemesis sans zombies and added tunnels. The tunnels are not fast enough nor sufficient to purpose enough to use in most cases providing too little benefit.
After that what you're left with is a less intimidating Nemesis. An M1 killer with a medium range M2 - Only unlike Nemesis you can be locked out of your M2 with turrets, and your M2 has a much higher chance of encountering collision issues.
As a life-long lover of the Alien franchise I just find it disappointing. The killer isn't unique, they aren't particularly fun in modern meta (For me mind you, for me), and overall they don't inspire the feeling of being a Xenomorph. -
@cogsturning said:
I think the point was kinda lost here. I'd just like people to recognize that the use of certain perks in certain ways can put a killer into a tight spot. I don't ever load in looking to tunnel, but if I have people using SB to try to run me to shack where no gens are being worked on and I have no pressure, I'm going to turn around and go back to the unhook notification I just got because I know there are two people out of position over there. Some perks, even ones that don't seem like they're chase avoidance perks, can be used in a way that's detrimental to your team. And SB is a very free and easy way to frustrate a killer into swerving. I don't think people want to accept that their actions can lead to their teammates getting tunneled.
Agreed. Fear not, as someone who converses with you often enough on here I do recognize you're not pro-tunnelling. Your position makes it all the more abundantly clear to me that perhaps SB really is a bigger issue.
It is however enlightening to see people accusing you of all people with the standard ' Any excuse to tunnel ' replies. I'm beginning to suspect that anything but self-flaggellation would be unacceptable to some of these posters. -
Couldn't agree more, though I'm sad to say it.
As a religious Huntress player, with her 4.4 and map-broken anti-loop, I simply cannot afford to waste time. If I see Feng has SB and the others don't, I start ignoring Feng even if she's plainly in sight. If I notice that every time I go for Sable her scratch marks disappear, I'll stop going for what I believe to be Sable. It's not a matter of wanting to tunnel, it's just a realistic assessment of what I can accomplish in that window of time. I establish the weakest link and if the weakest link is the only one I can down or find, then that's the only one I'm going to down or chase.
People love to call it an excuse to tunnel, but the reality of the matter is I couldn't care less about tunneling. I'm not pro or against when I queue into a game, it's just a tactic. Sure it's annoying to do and will probably cost me the match, but I'm not going to run around the same loop thirteen times and chase Dwight for a three-gen stretch just because I have some moral quandry against tunneling. Whether people enjoy that or not doesn't matter to me, because at that point I'm no longer enjoying myself either ; enjoyment has been removed as a factor of calculus for the rest of that given match.
There are alot of perks like this, most of them exhaustion perks. SB is the worst offender by far and away, however. -
Most of this is tame but I'll throw my varying levels of spice out, why not.
- Game Abandon shouldn't be a feature.
- Survivors mains cry too much about Killers, when they should be calling bad surv behavior out.
- Killer mains cry too much about survs, when they should be calling bad killer behavior out.
- Downvotes have come to be nothing but a bully function that has led to a split community and an uninformed dev team.
- If you aren't going to put effort into keeping things balanced, you shouldn't introduce them.
- If you know something isn't balanced, you shouldn't cry when you play it.
- Bodyblocking should be 100% active all the time, or not at all. Not conditional. This leads to abuse.
- If abusing collision on body blocking and endurance is valid strategy, so is slugging.
- Endurance was a mistake BHVR left active out of fear of not having a better solution.
- Influencers are having a negative effect on DbD on all sides.
- Pre-made teams should be flagged as such. It's not valid skill expression to 'let them guess.'
- If you run the meta perks, you are not allowed to complain about the other sides meta perks.
- Competitive is a word with a definition. This game is by definition competitive.
- If you want more 'party game' vibes, introduce more 'party game' modes.
- The cost of a full DbD package given its age and frequency of update is wild.
- Balancing for SoloQ is a mistake. They don't care. They won't care.
- Balancing for Comp is a mistake. They will abuse whatever minmax angle they get, as is their right.
- Not updating older killers regularly is going to actively cost BHVR money in the end.
- Updating older killers is not free and will be expensive in the interim.
My spiciest take being :
- Ghoul/Nurse/Blight and WoO/Exhaustion/Boil-over builds are not overpowered, you just don't want to use the proper counter-play and complain because that's easier than actually applying effort to overcome the obstacle. -
Survivors hate complex killers and it adds to the growing pile of things that scares new players off. Equally, as pointed out, many killer players opt for more simple killer designs ; I main Huntress, by example, about as simple as it gets on face value.
That said I love Singularity, Plague, and so on. Frankly speaking the only reason I don't play them is I find the reward for the effort you put into them is unbalanced. Macro playing Singularity as required is stress-inducing, fast-paced, and the reward you get for it is… the same as what I get for a right click on Huntress.
In short there are complex killers, but they are just as effective as simple ones. In lieu of that, why would you do five times the work to get the exact same reward output? Now there is playstyle to account for, and people who main Lari and Vomi of course and I'm not trying to slight them, more power to them. But that being said there's simply no incentive to pick them.
The more complex or difficult a killer is, one of two things must be true to make them equally viable. Either A) they get a larger reward for the larger effort output, which they do not. Or B) They are harder to counter proportional to the complexity involved, which they are not (arguably with Vomi.)
The end result is a killer that is meaningfully more difficult than Huntress or Ghoul, or even Nurse, but provides the exact same result, if not less so given how easy they are to counter.
I'd adore more complex killers coming to the roster if they could be substantial, but I don't trust they will be balanced to reward proportional to their effort, and so I more or less discard the idea entirely. Until the day we see them rebalance those more complex killers to reflect the effort input, anywho. -
Woefully I agree with your sentiment. It does seem strange that the power role is being bridled with so many condition trigger events whereas survivor is getting the free pass perks. There are exceptions to this rule of course, [Silent Shadow] by example. But yes perks like Rampage are questionable in that breaking 13 pallets will take enough time to mean it's less a perk and more an opportunity at a perk that will do heavy lifting later in the match.
I'm not against the new perk ideas as built properly it could be very good such as a [Silent Shadow], [Remember Me], [No Way Out], [NOED] combination into a four slug. But I'm sure that combination will be deemed unacceptable. Rampage would require some more finesse, but I am eager to see all that free pallet breaking haste glory on a bubba.
It would be nice to see some more diversity in the simplicity. Particularly given Hex perks are just a total throw-away waste of time. Survivors get blood points for breaking totems, have boons as additional incentive, and have perks to track and destroy them whereas boons are limitless placables. Feels cock-eyed to a degree.
However to play devil's advocate, these triggers (or rather triggers on perks in general) do afford a degree of side objectives to try keeping things fresh. Survivors have perks that do similar, which is equally aggravating on their side. It just leads to perks that killers will bypass for slowdown as that provides consistent and meaningful value as opposed to depending on trigger-event perks.
I will say that if Rampage does not lose tokens, it will be a fine perk. But I heavily suspect it will, thus rendering it to the pile of perks we'll never see run. -
I'll agree that doing gens every game can be boring. I'm not sure about the rest of this. Sloppy butcher's current state is a nerf from it's previous much stronger states. I run a ~70% kill rate and I still struggle regularly very seldomly catching soloQ's. Either this is a massive skill issue on my behalf as Huntress, or luck on yours. And the idea of healing taking too long seems a bit strange as well, as even after diminishing returns I'm seeing very rapid healing taking place.
Who are you running to have this amount of success? -
You're right, that would be crazy if it worked. It doesn't. You can't kick a regressing gen. Also, don't casually refer to eruption and surge taking the same time to setup - that's disingenuous.
If you add diminishing returns to kicks, killers will stop kicking. Don't do that. A cap of 8 regression events is sufficient. As it is the example you cited, which cannot happen due to the kick issue, triggers 3 regression events. Just chug through that gen and bait further regressions and you're done, it's immune to regression.
Yes, the Killer at optimal play keeps you from getting 2 gens in this scenario. A gen takes you 90 seconds unkitted and sloppy clicky to complete. That's 180 seconds longer in the match if you don't overlap their progress time intentionally. I'm not seeing the problem here. -
I don't. I run combos like FTTE, Furt Chase, Neme, and PWYF. Or full aura, on my main huntress. Most I'll take is surge for slow-down.
I skip slow-down entirely wherever possible, because I find it to be boring and I find gen rush to be boring. If I encounter a team that pops two gens at 60 seconds, I will shift over and tunnel out as many as I can before the inevitable five minute game ends. Outside of that I'll just spread hooks and play normally. If they turn the session into an exchange of time as a currency I will get the most out of my time, and treat it similarly as a humorless and efficient exchange.
Mind you I dislike the act of tunnelling, slugging, etc and do prefer to avoid it but I've had entire nights of being punished for trying to spread hooks. Perhaps it's a skill issue, but when the gens pop off so fast that I can only engage in three chases before the gates open to the teabag express, I might as well play to my skill level and juice what enjoyment I can from the match.
While I do want the match to take longer, I simply refuse to engage with the community opinion that I have to play with what's presented to me. I am consistently told Killer is the power role, which means the power to adapt and change the rules of the match are in my hands. Thus, I change the rules according to this paradigm. Equally if I encounter a match in which I am full bullied out or get someone who is clearing gens they are nowhere near (hacking), I am more likely to start the next match out using every tactic in my book to destroy the next match.
If I get a hacker (someone who consistently outruns me on a 12%+ haste build, clears a gen they aren't near, teleports, etc), a full bully squad, or three or so gen rush teams in a row, I'll give myself a 'treat' and play a full slug/tunnel in the next match. Then reset the cycle and repeat to treating the matches as single instance events until another trigger-case is met. I've found this makes the game far more pallatable.
This is in current meta, the only way I can secure a meaningful sense of enjoyment from the game. So I do. -
It's just a bad perk with only vague uses that don't synergize at all. But it's still a regression perk, which means you won't see a buff on it. It'll go to the bottom tier of perks and be passed up for more meaningful regression means. I wouldn't think on it too much. It serves with the niche of chase/regression that makes some folks happy, so let them be happy with it I suppose.
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I'm going to speak frankly if a bit crudely on the rules I use. I play Huntress primarily, with no real slowdown perks save for surge.
1 - Identify your ######### :tm:
Find the person. You know the one. The one that runs into walls, the one that can't quite loop correctly. The one that didn't pre-run. That's your ######### :tm:. Make sure everyone knows they are. In most games applying pressure to that one person insinuating a tunnel will collapse their entire team as people run over to prevent a tunnel you didn't actually intend to perform. Abuse this.
2 - 30 second rule
If you are in a chase for more than 30s you better have a damn good reason for it. Otherwise, break it at once. Do not chase the good loopers. Do not chase someone who obviously wants it, clicking lashlights and emoting. Do not chase anyone who runs into your face and gives you a free hit, they are probably baiting DH/DS. If you're chasing a surv and one 'just happens' to run in front of you, ignore them, it wasn't an accident it was bait.
Chase the weakest link. Tunnel them if you have to, but focus instead of making people think you're going to tunnel them and the other teammates will often panic and run over to try stopping you. Playing a little pretend goes a long way. Avoid slugging unless you know what you are doing with it. If your ######### :tm: gets slugged to apply pressure to the others however, that's just valid tactics.
3 - Stop kicking every Gen
Kicking gens is typically worthless. It takes too long, does too little, and most survs can break the regress in under three seconds. Don't kick unless you have good reason to believe you can keep them off the gen. Otherwise, ignore that gen and focus on the pursuits. Your kick is going to slow them down 3 seconds, which they have to spare if you're running around kicking gens. Self-defeating.
4 - ABCAlways Be Chasing. You want to camp this gen? No you don't, go chase. You want to secure 3 gen? No you don't, go chase. You want to teach that teabagger a lesson? No you don't, go chase. Your only desire in life is now the chase.
Once you learn who to not chase, it should be your goal to find the weakest links of their team and chase them with such constancy that you can hear them on the other side of the country crying in frustration. Do not let them go. Run them down like dogs, or they will run the gens down like dogs.
5 - No Surrenders
Someone gave up mid chase and you want to let them go? No, you don't. If they just started standing still, you hook them. I get the desire for empathy but remember they aren't giving up on you, they're giving up on their teammates. It's not a kindness to anyone to just let them go when they do this.
Unless you're going to let whoever crouches at you go, then don't do this. Same for AFK's. You're not doing anyone a favor in encouraging the AFK behavior by letting them go. Hook them. Continue. The people you should be ready to let go are the people who played well.
Just my rules and takes. Don't know if this'll help. -
Ignore them. Internet has toxicity and that's a good example of it. As a Killer main I don't only forgive DC's in such cases but entirely expect them. If a killer slugs and then cries about you DC'ing, they aren't someone whose opinion you should take seriously. It's just water off your back. 😁
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I like this idea in principle, but cannot conceive of a practice to make it appropriate short of severe limitations.
What I mean by that is that Legion, for instance, would have to be handled differently than Pinhead, who would have to be handled differently than huntress and so on. I could see it working if you had to pick between three or four killers (for the first event anyway) and build it around them, not dissimilar from 2v8's limitations.
My main for instance, Huntress, would be fine on the mode. But I can see Blight, or Doctor, absolutely ruining the mode.
Outside of that you'd need to severely impact movement speed while propped for example to avoid people looping with tiny hitbox props. Some kind of nerfs while changed that would prevent people from just turning it into a troll festival which is what prop hunt basically is anyway.
I'd, ideally, like to see a scenario in which the pool of players (let's say 10 people) are randomly assigned the hunter role versus the hiding role. Could be good grounds to get some survs to try out cheeky killer shenanigans whilst killers have to try some spicy stealth tomfoolery.
Chicanery! Chicanery I say! Gad-zooks the unmitigated poppycock of it all!
(I'm done.) -
@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4077797#Comment_4077797
Yeah, saying that it was once not a strawman would have been correct. But @GeneralV spoke about the past and in the past it was indeed seen that Survivors are monster coated monsters with monster filling and Killers are cute little fluffballs who just want to have fun.
It went past that, but not because there was a decrease in Killer toxicity. Both sides have a bunch of very toxic people.
Ah, that's fair. Apologies then I misunderstood your intent - wasn't trying to call you out or the like just struck me as strange to see what you'd said.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4077790#Comment_4077790
It is not really a strawman. Some time ago (not recent, but also not ancient times) a very popular answer to Threads with complaints about Killers being toxic was that either one of the Survivors was toxic before or that Survivors from the previous game have been toxic and the Killer needed to vent. It was not really accepted that Killer players could also be toxic.
This has gotten way less, this is true, you barely see it nowadays. But it was different.
God I hate typing this given entitlement really is two-sided, but :
Wouldn't that decrease in frequency of the behavior suggest a decrease in the attitude? To presume it's still the case but is just not being seen (due to decreased frequency) would be a strawman itself, would it not?
I understanding pointing out past events for context mind you, it's just that this particular comment made me squint at the irony of saying 'it's not a strawman' whilst presenting a strawman in opposition. Unless the point was to suggest that it once was not a strawman (which is true) but that doesn't really say much for the present tense of the conversation. -
What do you think blindness should block the aura of? What you are suggesting would take away from an already underwhelming status effect, and push killers more towards a meta. As it is, blindness is hardly worth running. This would make it much less desirable, whilst also holding a hand. Just paying attention will circumvent a lot of this problem. If downs and hooks are visible, what other meaningful auras are there, basekit, that blindness can block?
Personally I'd be fine if auras were visible but blindness limited a survivor's range of visibility to 5 meters, but I suspect that would be considered worse still. So what is the solution here? -
@Nightram said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4077615#Comment_4077615
Idk how Adrenaline and Urban can work together, but for your explaining because of the haste speed. I understand it. But I did understand all of this before making a post. I just got confused by who gets what by the build I had. And thank you for helping out!
Happy to provide any help I can! 😀 Happy trialing!
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I like the idea but I don't like it naming the perk. For instance, there are alot of ways to inflict expose, blindness, oblivious, etc. I'd have no problem with a pop up saying something like 'Killer using hemorrage' but naming the perk is a step too far. If it outright named the perk this would instantly tell the survivor the counter-play of the perk, and whether they need to hunt a totem down, etc.
I'm not against counter-play mind you, but there's a difference between call-outs and hand-holding that shines here. Game Knowledge shouldn't be replaced where viable, as it's a valid form of skill expression in and of itself. I'd rather see the condition. "Expose" goes out so now you're looking for when. Was it after a hooking? High likelihood of Friend's Til the End then, by example. -
Art the clown.
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A time based asym and survivors are given every advantage to waste the killers time yet the killer has almost zero agency left after nerfs.
Patently false. Killers hold primary agency. You open up talking about a single killer being nerfed in the title but generalize to your benefit here. This is disingenuous.
Gen speeds get buffed while gen regression gets nerfed. Sloppy butcher gets nerfed to 70 seconds making it to where survivors dont have to worry about their macro play while heal speeds get buffed to oblivion.
Diminishing returns. Also Sloppy at 70 is sufficient. I would know, I run sloppy. Also, Macro is dead outside of high MMR.
Tunneling was an effective strategy in a game with no rules but the devs caved to made up survivor rules and added anti tunnel mechanics and then buff basekit borrowed time to 15 second.
The rules are what the dev's say the rules are. Tunneling and slugging are valid and still not bannable regardless of what people think about them - they are not bannable and therefor valid strategy. The only thing about anti-tunnel mechanics I don't like is the exploitation of endurance for body blocking, but I also think collision is 100% a mistake so what do I know. Either way, count to 15 then hit them. Done. If you're so intent to tunnel you can still do so.
Please explain to me how this isnt a survivor sided game again?
The game is by nature, and must be by mathematical principle, survivor sided. That's just not as a cruel a prospect as you make it out to be. When 80% of the playerbase is survivor it is only sensible that the larger portion of the playerbase would recieve the larger portion of incentives to keep things interesting for them. Adapt or drown.
Every patch we just have to adapt to new things survivors get to do and just be told to get better as killer.
Then get better at killer. Be the best at a killer and you have a pedastal to stand on. Your road to being heard and listened to as an authority is clear, so pursue it.
Survivors have never been told by the devs to get better but every patch, the devs tell us to adapt.
Again, the onus is on Killers as the 20% to be the one to step up. You don't make 80% of the people miserable when 20% is an option. BHVR is trying to balance how to keep killers playing and queueing, without making survs miserable. It's a difficult balancing act, and you're still playing so they are doing it well.
Ghoul got nerfed because of trash tier survivors lol a killer we paid money for just to be gutted a week later because of survivor tears.
Adapt or drown. If you find it unacceptable, take action by not queueing killer. Enough people do that and queue times will skyrocket and BHVR will be forced to fix your flavor of the week. It's basic political power in vidya game format. If you don't like that idea try a new killer.
Or. You know. Try another game. Like Civ. XD -
Bug is a bug is a bug. Are there bigger bugs that should be fixed? Certainly! But your statement doesn't line up there - if you're just upset that they fixed this bug rather than important ones, you wouldn't be calling for this to be reverted. The substance of your agitation seems to boil down to liking this mechanic for some reason and being dismayed it was removed.
Bug is a bug, is a bug. I don't think it's particularly offensive insofar as abusable things go, but we can't start drawing lines between 'bugs we like and should keep' vs. 'that's clearly a bug remove it.'
It's an unintended effect that was not planned, charted, or meant to be put into the game so they removed it. Why is this a topic of contention? If you wanted it not removed you could have been advocating for it to be made a feature before this, rather than waiting until its correction to have it reverted and left in this ambiguous area.
On that note bring back my Pyracake, deng nabbit. -
Not slower than normal that I can tell. I would very much like to see a m/s meter on the screen in this game tied to model movement, if I'm to be honest. Would help dispel alot of these situations to just have the numbers available on screen.
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@TheArbiter said:
Not saying there aren't a lot of cheaters but I genuinely feel like people dont know what a lot of perks and add-ons do. This makes them equate to anytime they are losing as "oh the other side must have been cheating".
There's a whole lot of this behavior going on.
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@GeneralV said:
Greetings, friends of the Fog! I hope this discussion finds you doing well.
So, if you are familiar with my posts, you know that Freddy Krueger is a character that means a lot to me. If you aren't, however, allow me to quickly give you some context: Freddy Krueger has been my main killer in DBD from the day I started playing the game, which was all the way back in December of 2018. Most of my posts have been about Freddy and, if I may be so bold to say what I'm about to say, there is an association between my name and the character.
Now, as a strong defender of the original power design for Freddy, prior to his first rework in patch 3.1.0, I was definitely not happy with the direction his second and most recent rework, which happened in January of last year, took the character. To me, his newly reworked power didn't even come close to fixing the main issue with his kit: how boring and uninspired he feels.
Because of that I stopped playing him for a while, switching to Skull Merchant who had already caught my attention by then. However, once a Freddy main, always a Freddy main. At least in my case.
And after getting back to this killer that I care so much about, I've found that my opinion… actually stays the same.
But I've noticed that Freddy isn't really a hot topic these days, and I would like to get a general idea of what everyone is feeling about this killer as he currently is.
So that is why I ask: what do you think of current Freddy Krueger?
Remember, every opinion is welcome here!
He's in a good place, I think. Not because he's actually in a good place but because no one plays his counters effectively anymore. Most of the time when I play him it's an easy 4K, with SWF's being the only thing that deter me meaningfully. It's bizarre as a single look at his kit tells me he should be underpowered, but it's as if people just refuse to respond to his presence meaningfully.
One of those 'in a good place due to ignorance' situations, rather than being mechanically level. -
Cheating is much, much more common than some people realize I admit. But 9/10? On my worst nights I have around a 40% encounter rate with cheaters. This is largely clear to me because as I've grown more familiar with the game it's becoming easier to tell the difference between when someone bugs bunny'd me as I rounded a corner, and when someone flat-out teleported.
That being said running a full haste build on killer was uh, we'll call it enlightening. Achieved somewhere around 15% and 28% haste (pre dim) over straight and relatively straight run engagements. Got a bit goofy so I went back to PWYF and just maxed the stacks and ran the sample when I was suspicious of a given individual, keeping me at 15%.
Moving at 15% haste, on a 4.4, put me to 5.09m/s. Meaning every second I should be gaining a meter on an unhasted survivor in chase. I did, somewhat regularly, find survivors moving just as fast as me, or faster than they should be when I did this. Now mind you when I say 'regularly' please recognize the sample-size is bias, as I only did this when I already suspected a given player of speedhacking.
That being said, BHVR has been pretty good at spitting out positive reports these days, so you may start seeing a downtick. -
I've tested this on and off, but yeah it's highest to lowest. They said it directly in the stream. A simpler example would be Adrenaline, Hope, and Urban Evasion for the sake of Math assuming all activation triggers are active.
Pre Diminishing Returns - 157% Haste
Urban Evasion - 100% Haste
Adrenaline - 50% Haste
Hope - 7% Haste
Post Diminishing Returns - 126.75% Haste
Urban Evasion - 100% Haste [Keeps 100%, as Highest Value]
Adrenaline - 25% Haste [Keeps 50% as 2nd highest]
Hope - 1.75% Haste [Heeps 25% as 3rd highest]
The application is, as you indicate in your post OP, highest to lowest. So highest source loses nothing. Second highest loses 50%, and so on down the list. Is there a particular part of the reduction process that is responsible for confusing you? I know your preference is a dev, but I'd love to help in the meanwhile. -
@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4077373#Comment_4077373
I think the main thing lacking above all else is a consistent idea of what this game is supposed to be. If it's all about efficiency like you said, then that's a very different balancing discussion than if the game is more about fun.
I'd agree, but hard to get a straight answer on that one. It's a party game when balancing is too difficult, but most players outside of low MMR recognize the game as a pure efficiency one. Killer, anyway, is 100% about efficiency if you pursue the victory. Survivor has more wiggle room in available options, but hitting the gens and sticking to the gens whenever you can sneak it in wins games.
If it's about fun, then 100% agree with you. -
Sadly there's no answer for this. Need volume loud (as Nepras points out) to hear footsteps and grunts, but if you leave your volume loud the screams kill your ears. There is unlikely to be an adjustment for this - though I do sit in the camp that there should be an option to just turn off screams on hook entirely as they are not an intended gameplay mechanic, just an atmospheric one.
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@UnicornMedal said:
I don't think any changes like this should go through with camping/tunneling/slugging still ignored. It'd very easily create a snowball effect unless Survivors are totally efficient at all times.
The game is about efficiency, in the end, so I don't see a problem with pushing survivors to remain efficient at all times.
However, I'll agree in so far as a change like this feels unnecessary on the grounds that survivors being able to pop three gens at once may be frustrating for the killer, but that does not mean it's problematic. 'Frustrating for the killer,' even as a killer main, is just not a valid reason to devote resources to swap like this I think. It also takes a tool out of the survivor toolkit, which while I do think they've got alot of hand-holding, I don't think the answer is to artifically limit their tactical options. -
The answer to toxicity is seldom disclusion of the party. As a Killer Main I seldom encounter killers who are toxic but I entirely believe they exist. I regularly get told downright illegal things from survs in end-game chat however. But Lo', on yon horizon what light doth break : there is already a solution for that. It's the report function.
If it's as simple as someone saying 'EZ' riling your jimmies, which I admit gets mine at times, may I suggest a prescription dosage of welcometotheinternetrin? In seriousness, it's the internet. People are seldom as kind as they ought be behind a veil of anonyminity. This is the sort of thing you need to get used to, rather than just deeming the party you don't like yourself as being invalid of communication and therefor unworthy of it.
If they say something heinous, report them.
If they say something annoying, close the window.
Just type GG and leave. No one is holding you hostage save for your knee-jerk expectation. Don't rage-bait yourself. If the game was toxic, don't stay to confirm the existence of the poison in the EGC. -
I mean no disrespect here, but my takes are as thus:
Lay Waste - Worthless, save for a Surge synergy.
Under Your Thumb - Totem. Worthless. Totems need to either be 'jesus god' strong or they aren't worth taking typically.
Vigilance - "No, we have Deerstalker at home," Deerstalker at home.
Steadfast - Sandbag :tm:
Salvation's Cry - Wario Bond if ordered from Teemu
Fruits of Your Labor - Adrenaline, but better. Much like Five Moves Ahead (sp?) is just WoO but better.
The only one worth thinking about is Fruits of Your Labor. If the effects stack per token all around, this is incredibly overpowered, but doesn't look it at a glance. It's Adrenaline on steroids that triggers 5 times, each trigger becoming stronger. It's absurd. At 5 gens it heals a state (adrenaline) and gives a slightly weaker haste than Adrenaline. However, if stacked and triggered with SB and Adrenaline (even with diminishing returns) that would give it an 87% haste. Brief though it is, that's insane going into end game.
That's, again, assuming Fruit of Your Labor stacks duration, haste, and healing progress per token. If it only stacks haste duration for each token and not haste speed it's not as busted, but it's still pretty insane that it will trigger that much in a given match. Far, far, far outshines Adrenaline, and stackable with Adrenaline. Worrisome, that. -
@Mrpugalug916 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4076980#Comment_4076980
I guess everyone's a survivor main on here lol. Dude what im saying is theyre balancing the game around babies who dont know how to play the game, meanwhile the experienced players who actually know how to play the game abuse every single advantage given to them while no killer can keep up consistently.
As I said, I'm a killer main. I play 90/10 Killer/Surv, to be generous.
I get that the balancing is borked but you're looking for structural competitive level balancing in a game that the dev's have openly professed they do not intend to develop in a competitive direction. Yes, it is a competitive game by definition but their direction for balance does not, and will not reflect that. It's not their priority.
But since you asked:
Good survivors do benefit because the bulk of the playerbase is, unsurprisingly by metric, lower skillset survivor players. Thus yes, when the bulk get a benefit from a change those few good ones get more benefit from it than the lower end. Hand-holding included. I don't even disagree with you: I do feel there has been far, far too much handholding. BT base, anti-camp, etc etc, sure. I'll take the downvotes on that.
However, you aren't presenting an actual argument here my man. "The few high skill ceiling players benefit more from patches directed to benefit the lower skillset players" is not an argument, it's a standard result from almost any game development cycle. It's been true in League of Legends, it's been true in DoTA. It's been true in CSGO, it's been true in every PVP oriented game, and some PVE games. That's not an argument it's an observation of what is effectively an industry law.
To be clear the reason I say you aren't presenting an argument is because you aren't presenting a valid alternative path. "Get Rid of basekit BT" would result in the bulk of survivor players having a patently more miserable experience. I HATE bodyblocking and basekit BT abuse to take hits and think it's frankly rancid and exploitive, by example. But the alternative by default, in absence of another presented, is removing it and punishing the bulk for the benefit of keeping the high skillsets in check.
Also: complaining about meta while playing meta is, in itself, kind of confusing as an opener. -
@CrypticGirl said:
So…you're complaining about the worst Survivors in the game who give up while admitting that you can't handle going against the knowledgeable ones who don't give up. This may not be the game for you in that case…
Holy crap, OP. You made me agree with Cryptic. I never agree with Cryptic. I mean, gold star, I guess? Achievement unlocked.
Look my man, I'm a killer main as well, and I too feel the game is a bit swindling of non S-tier killers right now. That being said, this may not be the best way to present your argument. You posted what is effectively an accusation followed by what is effectively an ultimatum in a dress.
May I suggest that in the future you consider taking some time to formulate your post into a coherent argument that others can engage with? What you've presented is just kind of a baleful tangle of upsetti spaghetti. -
@cogsturning said:
I've never seen anything like a shadow ban, and there have been people with consistently unpopular takes to an extreme degree, yet they've still been very much present and visible. The only thing that upvotes and downvotes seem to actually do is that, if you're the OP of a thread and it hits -5 in votes, it will stop bumping. For example, the "slugging meta" post is currently no longer bumping (survivor-focused post btw) because it's hit that threshold.
Also, what gets upvoted and what gets downvoted isn't so simple. First, the climate around what you're discussing matters. Pro-Ghoul post? Yeah, it's getting downvoted cause he's hated. Pro-Dredge post? Would be fine. The heat around FT largely grew because it was obvious it was going to get nerfed because of the uproar, so the tensions leading up to that were high.
Second, and this is not so much towards you specifically, but tone and word choice is the biggest thing that tends to sway votes from what I've observed. You can see two people say the exact same thing on the same thread but in different ways and get different vote ratios.
Which also leads to my last point—it's also a popularity contest. People know one another. They like and dislike one another. Sometimes the post itself doesn't matter much. I can promise you if two people are fighting and one is generally disliked, the votes become nothing of value. People aren't even reading the argument. They're voting for their favorite.
Think about what you're saying. "My anti tunnel idea got upvotes; my other anti-tunnel idea got downvotes." The fact that they're kinda about the same thing should show it's not a black and white issue.
Cog nailed it, I think. He and I have bickered back and forth a good deal but it's always been civil and respectful. We don't often agree, but I appreciate that he has been direct and respectful every time. Often enough our voting reflects that. But some of the other… let's call them less tone-minded folks in the forums tend to eat downvotes like calories.
Additionally while I dislike admitting it, many people are seeing recycled posts and sentiments that they have argued and argued and argued, only to reach no result. Eventually it's to be expected some number of those folks will just downvote to say 'I disagree' without offering actual context. As much as that seems unkind and to a degree it is, they are not obligate to explain their vote either.
It's not a perfect system, but it works well enough for the purpose I think. -
@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4076782#Comment_4076782
Why not just adopt the standard that is less stressful and more fun, if people are going to be toxic no matter what you do?
I see this mentality a lot and I personally don't understand it. It's just very teenage to me. Mad at the world because some people are mean. I can go ten killer matches of loses with tbagging at the gates and "ez baby killer" but if match eleven is a sudden snowball and people start throwing, no matter how crappy those last 40 survivirs were, I'm still going to feel bad and give someone hatch. Survivors aren't a hive mind.
I can never take chat salt that seriously either, and i also dole it out. It's all funny to me. And I get about as much good as bad. People just really cling to that bad stuff. I also don't understand why people don't just close it if it changes them.
There's also a tendency of PC players to forget that at least half, if not much more, of the playerbase can't see the chat, so quite a huge amount of people only have secondhand exposure from screenshots and videos, so they're not affected by that aspect.
The forum is not my standard for interacrion in this game. There's no one here. The people I see running slugging builds are often high-hour, and soften streamers. I doubt these people have zero interaction with the community at large. Steam forums, Reddit, YT, Twitch. Only baby players who haven't made contact with that side of the game's world have an excuse for not knowing how hated things are. Even these slugging builds are mostly originating from videos.
I understand that and I don't disagree, but I was directly referencing you saying:
"If it's not about ego-feeding and winning at all costs, why would you do something you know quite well is hated? Every match I have against these people the chat is full of vitriol towards them. They know perfectly well how it makes others react."
I wasn't bringing popular opinions up out of nowhere, but rather regarding something you said specifically. Sorry if that wasn't clear. -
Sorry, OP, but this is a nothingburger. Both sides have meta's and those perks present in the meta will often show up nonstop. It likely feels artificially worse for surv because killer selection also factors for them, but end of the day metas are metas.
I don't like it either, but water is wet. -
@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4076753#Comment_4076753
Though I'd disagree about the P3 thing—people still want add-ons, and many want p100s—I'd guess many people don't care about BP. I don't go into matches intending to tunnel or slug people, but I also don't care about points. I'd rather win and have a low score than lose and have a high score, and that's coming from a not terribly competitive person. The number on the scoreboard is just mostly useless to me, especially as killer, when I'm the only one in my group and can't really underperform if I won, compared to survivor, where I'm comparing myself a little more to the other numbers. But I'd still rather escape with a low number than die with a high one.
If it's not about ego-feeding and winning at all costs, why would you do something you know quite well is hated? Every match I have against these people the chat is full of vitriol towards them. They know perfectly well how it makes others react.
The amount of BP varies based on how much happens in the match. If you 4man slug at game start 1 minute in you're going to do less in points than if they keep getting up and getting hit again.
if it wasn't intended it would be fixed
I still don't agree with this. I think it's intended in the sense that you can down multiple people in certain situations. I've done my fair share of desperate end game slugging when everyone is injured and out of position. But I don't think they ever intended for the game to be played this way specifically. It's just not a big enough problem to fix, and the videos with titles like "Why I'm quitting killer forever" and "dbd is dead after new patch" would flood back out into the world from the CC cesspool just like they did with the anti-tunnel ptb. Which, incidentally, included anti-slug. Anti-slug is also present in 2v8. They understand it's an issue, but they won't have the backbone to fix it until it hits an extreme level of problematic.
That's fair, and I'm happy to agree to disagree. Though I can answer one of your questions:
"If it's not about ego-feeding and winning at all costs, why would you do something you know quite well is hated? Every match I have against these people the chat is full of vitriol towards them. They know perfectly well how it makes others react."
The answer is easy: Total disregard. The bulk of players aren't on the forums, nor do they care to be. They just want to play. I'm often told some horrendous things in egc even when I'm playing with hook spreading. I'm regularly told to unsub from life, so to speak, regardless of how I play. That's why I didn't hesitate to run my own slugging tests - why should anyone care if it's responded to with vitriol, when most of the killer matchs (anecdotal, as largely my own experience here) end this way? Vitriol either way.
Why not just adopt the standard that is less stressful and more fun, if people are going to be toxic no matter what you do?
Again I have no doubt for some this is ego based, but I don't think even the majority of them fall into that camp. It's just easier to disregard it all and play in a fashion that is most fun. If the most fun means slugging, they'll do that. Tunnelling, they'll do that. I did find it refreshing in my slug trials that I didn't have alot of things to worry about. Flashlights, dead hard, etc etc etc.
It's not against the rules and they'll be flamed either way, so why not do it, you know? -
@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4076725#Comment_4076725
People like this don't care about points. They care only about ego.
Running my tests on this (which we discussed on that thread a while back) I didn't actually get less bp, not by much. Additionally I'd point out that once a killer gets all their killers to P3, BP becomes an invalid means to motivate someone with an intended playstyle. I have zero doubt for some of these killers it's about ego, but I think it's also more complex than to umbrella all of them in such a fashion.
The only solution here that I can see would be for the dev's to implement powerful anti-slug mechanics. The benefits for slugging are just too large. Having run the slugging rounds I did trying to understand I found out too quickly that it's just easier and more enjoyable in gameplay to slug. Yes BP is slightly lower, but I encountered no other issues. Granted I have since gone back to normal 4 hook play, I do understand the position better now.
It's not a strawman to observe the benefits of the tactic, and saying it is 'not intended' is not valid either - if it wasn't intended it would be fixed. The fact that it remains after years means it's effectively intended. I think what we are seeing is a slow shift in the meta which is potentially unhealthy. All ideas I presented to correct it were met with consternation, but that does not mean there are not better ideas out there that could remedy this. -
@Leon_van_Straken said:
Have you guys tried to see it in a different light?
BHVR has now more room to balance stuff and doesn´t need to tiptoeing around every potential perk, ability and hope that the one youtube doesn´t find abusable stuff.
I exactly remember so many players hating on speed Clown/speed selfcare
The only thing BHVR could do to attack these problems was to nerf "EVERYTHING" for everyone which leads to dying perks like selfcare.
If selfcare doesn´t get additional healing speed by medkits, perks and other stuff the perk can be rebalanced back to the game.
These are just some examples because I know well that there are many perks which are 0 problem on their own but become kinda dumb when paired with others.
I agree 100% that this is a first-step maneuver. That being said the problem I am seeing repeating has very much to do with poor implementation, lack of BHVR recieving the PTB feedback that was given, and over-all frustration with the TAT on the results.
If the DR changes ruin DBD for a month but make it sizably better the next month I think most people would agree that's acceptable. However if the DR changes ruin DBD for years at the vague promise of things getting better one day, no one finds that acceptable - and that feels closer to player expectation right now or so it seems.
The turn around time and development time from BHVR, as well as the speed at which they have historically responded to issues implies to the playerbase that DR is going to gut alot of things and make the game lesser, and it will be lesser for years to come.
Personally I remember people complaining perk variety and build variety were dead before DR, so I'm watching this entire affair with some measure of surprise and popcorn. Killer meta is entirely unaffected. Survivor meta is entirely unaffected. Survs hate killers stacking gen slow down. Killers hate surv's stacking gen speed. They both got their wishes, or rather are starting to, so watching the kick-back is admittedly a bit schadenfreudian. -
@EntityNea said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4075811#Comment_4075811
I don't know why you're assuming "no counter play" from the word "abusable".
Abusable just means that something can be abused, and in gaming terminology means used in unintended ways, often to gain an advantage.
Like, for instance, how you're supposed to be able to unhook despite being chased by ghosts.
But from my experience trying to hook camp with the ghosts, it was very effective because most of the times the ghosts would start the chase while being between the hook and the other survivor, so unless the survivor ran away from the hook, the ghost would hit them.
I don't think behavior intends us to effectively hook camp with the ghosts, hence it's one example of what I mean by "abusable".
Worst of all is if the survivor gets the basement - I just placed a ghost patrolling up and down the stairs.
And it's infinite, because the ghosts have separate cooldowns - another example of "abusable". You can abuse the fact that there's no down-time of the ghosts, which I found especially effective when basement camping.
But of course, doing all this means that the survivors could just be doing gens elsewhere. But most of the times people are altruistic and try to prevent the camping, but there wasn't a single match where they didn't go into the basement without getting injured by a ghost, and then I could just go down and finish the job.
Hopefully this clarifies what I mean by his abilities being "abusable"
The reasons you have listed for him to be abusable are not dissimilar from things trapper, hag, skull merchant, and others can do.
"Can use power to remote defend the hook?" Check.
"Can use power to zone and corner?" Check.
"Unfun to be X?" Check, no one likes getting trapped, pinned, or locked in.
The knight is susceptible to looping, flashing, stunning, and particularly susceptible to surv's who pay attention. It's valid to not like the killer, but calling him abusable when he's not even A-tier is questionable. If you think this is abusable I hope you never see what I can do with Huntress or you'd be talking the forum into removing her from the game for poor design.
You picked up knight and pubstomped. That's what he does. Knight is one of those killers who is countered by knowledge and coordination more than solo-god loopers with practice, though those don't hurt . This is just the standard surv game from what I see. If they rarely see Knight (which they do) they don't practice his counterplay much and get destroyed easily.
If you think he's abusable and poorly designed to the point of being bad for DBD, which I presume is your grounds of logic for abusable→Shouldn't be in game, then take him into a custom lobby with a four-man who understands him. It will be deeply educational. There is a reason you don't see him in queues more often.
Whether by intent or byproduct this reads very much as a 'I don't understand his counterplay and therefor he is too strong' post. The growing epidemic of survivors calling something abusable or unbalanced when they aren't applying counter-play is wearing people thin. -
[Shadowborn] and [Two Can Play] don't see much selection, and I think the reason for that is very complicated, but boils down to action economy versus perk value.
If you nerf Lightborn the gamble stops being worth it compared to the consistent value of Pain Res, Corrupt Intervention, etc etc. Which makes gens harder to do, which isn't fun for anyone but that's the killer meta.
In order to lure someone into light born use without total immunity, it would have to pack some serious benefits; enough to outweigh the constant value addition of a better perk in that slot. In short, Light born would have to be more consistently worthwhile than Pain Res by example, or, more conditionally worth while than something like BBQ or Dead Man's Switch. The changes would need be some uncomfortably large impact to killer benefit for lightborn to remove its immunity. But that's fine because Blinding with a flashlight may be fun but it is not the objective. The gens, which you cited not wanting to do, are the the objective not flashlighting a killer.
Blinding a killer is fun, but being blinded is the opposite of fun. There's a perk that fixes that unfun, and you want to removed because it ruins your fun. That's the boil down of this argument from my perspective. I don't even run Lightborn but this feels like a 'let them eat cake' flavored argument.
"Another incredibly annoying thing survivors go through is having to wait in the pre-match lobby until the last 5 seconds to equip a flashlight, just topotentiallyavoid the killer equipping lightborn. It is very, very draining and ridiculous. It's also annoying for the killer to be hit for 3-4 flashlights last second, without the killer being prepared for it."
I can't say much to this. If I see survivors do this I tunnel them immediately until they leave. -
@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4074849#Comment_4074849
Except that people are doing this regardless of what they see, and blaming Fast Track. I just had a Billy do this to me yesterday and said just that in chat. Meanwhile, I was the only one with a gen perk, and it was just Deja Vu. I'm pretty tired of every single little thing being used as an excuse for crappy behavior. This perk is not "prevalent in the meta." I barely ever see it.
And you can't convince me someone who slaps Infectious Fright onto the games most hated high mobility killer is only doing it when they see four toolboxes. I would never do this regardless of what i think might happen. And even so, if just the lobby tilts you this hard, dodge.
I'm not arguing your point in full but this does go both ways. The survivors went in with those builds, deciding before they knew how the killer would play. It could have been a baby trapper for all they knew - this does go both ways. Granted yeah I'm not thrilled to see a Ghoul in this scenario, it's important to remember that this is not one-sided behavior. Both sides did things that are at fault here.
Perhaps we should be looking at the outcomes, rather than attempting to dismiss the example by distributing blame? -
@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4074662#Comment_4074662
I get pig can cause some damage when she placed head traps and they did some gen into it but knight is interesting choice personaly I dont think he is that reliable because his guards arent hard to shake off especialy when you are chased just by guard like banner spawns pretty fast except jailer but even he can be easily beaten because of how slow he is.
Another thing is that guards go around droped pallets and if you go to window and touch it and run away the guard does the same which is bug made into feature so knight is super dependent on how experienced survivors are but he can stall few of them at one time and his guards deffinitely work better with slugs than with hooks where if chased survivor touchs the hooked one guard gets lost.
Concurred. His kit (particularly in my new-to-him-hands) is a bit clunky and not exactly custom built to the test, but it did seem to work out. One of the matches did see a bullysquad of P100 so I assumed the MMR wasn't toasted, but I have to assume otherwise as I did rather well against them and they tried multiple hook spreads. I redacted names (not trying to flame people here) but attached the EG on that one here.
In a weird way it kind of highlights perk spread. This set (the pasted set) are clearly trying for some kind of gen rush build that, frankly, confuses me a bit. But that being said they still got caught out. I do think Knight is unreliable as I struggled a bit, but once I got a rhythm down on him and started using his guards as effectively free pressure rather than dependable tools, everything fell into place on its own.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4074103#Comment_4074103
Just clearing up a misconception. They are designed around a 60% kill rate, not a 60% win rate. A 60% kill rate on average equates to 2.4 kills on average per match. Over the course of several matches, that roughly comes out to getting at least a 3k on half their matches.
Absolutely: Thank you for clarifying, I misunderstood this. I appreciate it.
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4074601#Comment_4074601
Who did you used for these 10 games?
I didnt test it that much but from all the time I played I know its not that bad, people are wondering why sometimes slugging is more used and in reality its because just as you said there are few perks per lobby (mostly one on one to few survivors) to deal with slugging than against hooking like dead hard, ds. Same with tunneling if you limit as killer the amonth of preasure to one or two survivors your time to deal with all these perks and stress is way smaller and your objective effectiveness raises compare to regular game, thats because more perks to help survivors against killer hooking them or giving them strong effect after dealing with hooks like DH or deliverence are more used and the time you spend to hook more survivors the more time of living each survivor gets and this gets you as killer on gens.
I ran 5 rounds with Pig, before I decided that was likely a little contaminating of the experiment given her traps further distracting survivor efforts. I then switched to a killer I never played before, Knight. I know now that Knight is good at slugging, and will be running further tests to try correcting for it.
That being said, yeah it was surprisingly easy. One match had 2 surv escapes, another had one escape. The other eight were 4K's (or effectively 4K, as I did let a sable go in one round as I felt bad for her.)